Stealing Jesus - Rev. Kathleen Rolenz
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- The sermon was delivered on Sunday, February 10, 2013, during the contemporary service at All Souls Unitarian Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma, by Rev. Kathleen Rolenz, Guest Minister.
SERMON DESCRIPTION
Unitarian Universalists have an ambiguous and complicated relationship with Jesus. We may be okay with "God," but when it comes to "Jesus," we may feel that his message has become so compromised as to render him irrelevant for the 21st Century. The Jesus we know has been stolen from that place, and from the place in history that he deserves. Who stole Jesus, and why? And, should we try to steal him back?
Reverend Kathleen C. Rolenz is parish co-minister of the West Shore UU Church. She is editor and co-author of Christian Voices in Unitarian Universalism, Worship that Works, and Sources of our Faith. She has been a member of the Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship since 2000, having served as editor of the publication "Good News," and President of the Board of Trustees. She is the recipient of several awards, including the Richard C. Borden Preaching Prize, the Beacon Press Sermon Award, and the UU Men's Network Sermon Award.
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Jesus (I call him Yeshu') is my guru.He led me out of fundamental religion through the Gnostic gospel and helped me realise I Am the Christ and so are you. Bless be.
I see the last time someone watched this and commented was a year ago. As a Unitarian Christian I find myself watching it again and again. I wish i could bring it to more people.
From a Black Baptist Pastor, that was a awesome word. I am glad that a friend recommended it to me for my hearing.
This is a great take on Jesus Christ.
Great sermon !!
Never let the fundamentalists hijacked the teachings of the Unconditional Love of Jesus.
This really speaks to me, I have after much study on my own have come to the realization that as you say, heaven is within us. Jesus says that more that once. Thank you.
Glad I found this. As an openly agnostic atheist who still kind of likes some of the gospel teachings of and about Jesus, I tend to be too Christian like for most atheists and far too openly atheist for most Christians.
I finally sucked it up and began attending a UU church in the woodlands, tx, where I feel rather at ease.
Anyway, this message/sermon really resonated with me, so thanks.
I want my future church to be like a Unitarian Universalist Church even if I never become a Unitarian Universalist (even though being one would be hella cool).
February 2020!! This was awesome!!
Thank you, Kathleen, for your words, your enthusiasm, your commitment toward finding the truth wherever it may be. I struggle with that most important question within the New Testament, "Who do YOU say that I am?" To many of my family, Jesus is a friend who listens in moments of pain and anguish, an all-powerful spirit and physical being that can hear their prayers and grant their wishes and save them from trouble. I find myself unable to pretend that a character in a book could be my actual, real support. To me, Jesus is person alive only as a character within stories, a created and imagined by people long ago, pretend, not real, characterized by Jewish writers who wanted a man they knew or heard about to be that promised messiah, that savior, divine and human, freeing them from oppression or helping them transcend intellectually or mystically their troubling lives. The words and miracles and parables attributed to Jesus have no way of being verified or authenticated. In fact, the miraculous nature and the constant "fulfilling" of prophecy and the implanting of the Jewish scriptures (Old Testament) into the life of Jesus, just shows me that Jesus wasn't and isn't real, any more than the characters within modern romance novels are real, or science fiction, or fantasy, even if the author bases their characters on real people that s/he knows personally. It is why I left Baptists and their ideology behind so long ago. Jesus is not alive to me. Jesus doesn't speak to me. Jesus was and is not real or relevant in my life any more than George Washington or Gandhi or Alexander the Great. He was, long ago, when I was a child, real and comforting and my friend, but that is because I was not told the truth, not told the whole story, given only the information that would get me to comply, obey, conform. Now I find comfort in actual humans around me, people, friends, lovers, strangers (though everyone seems overwhelmed with their own concerns and anxieties, and I am left to just deal with life and move on). I know that to many others, maybe you, maybe some of those who listened to you speak, Jesus is a real companion, someone who is alive and listening and wanting to help. To some or many, Jesus is powerful. But not to me. I never met Jesus, the real person such narratives were based on, or the imagined one of Christianity. I cannot answer that question you repeated any more than I could if a children's book put those words into the mouth of a dinosaur or Santa or a bunny or a tree, unless I pretended. And that is something I cannot do. If my UU minister asked me, "Who do people say that I am?" I could answer that. If he directed it toward me, then I would have positive things to say, words about how he treats us from the pulpit and how he treats us in the fellowship hall and how he treats us in committee meetings. What might you say to a visitor or member of your own congregation if they asked you, "Who do you say that I am?"
Lately, I've been feeling "back in my own Christian haunted house, listening for knocks and signs," so I'm re-watching this sermon!
I have never heard a sermon which moved me quite like this one! What energy and faith! :-)
Olivier Morneau Joshua (Yehoshua) Christ saves EVERYONE (eventually) ...... www.Christian-universalism.com
Bob Anderson I do agree with that statement Bob, but I believe there's many ways this can be interpreted. Being saved to me is a process, not an end unto itself. I feel I have been saved, I am being saved and will be saved again. Sometimes that is literal, sometimes not. That's the beauty of how God moves in everyday life!
Olivier Morneau Very good... This also helped my growth in a very big way. Learning this will change your life. www.iswasandwillbe.com/sovereignty_intro.php
I disagree very much about the portrayal of Paul, the Apostle, here, but I loved the sermon overall. At the very end I wanted to scream "Amen".
Amazing. I have never listened to a sermon and felt like it spoke to me. Ive been to many churches. But this has spoken to me. I think i have found my new home. How can i find a church near me?
This is awesome. I know the feeling!
I'd recommend looking up Unitarian Universalism, especially the UU Association, and seeing if there are any churches in your area. Keep in mind, though, that while the churches uphold the same principles, they may be different in style and focus.
Others find "home" online in the Church of the Larger Fellowship, which is for UU's who don't have a local church to attend and so "gather" online.
Me personally, I just watch All Souls sermons on UA-cam and hope to make it to Tulsa, OK for a visit someday. :)
brieks07 Thank you for posting the Church of the Larger Fellowship website. I just moved to an area that doesn't have a UU church.
I have learned more About The real meaning of Jesus. and his teachings in a UU Church than at any Christian Church.
James Hyatt that's a lie, I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry that true saints failed you.
So what is it?
I doubt it cuz you wouldn’t have hang around with people who deny Him by accepting all others uncritically
Excellent!
great cotent guys! Just shared this to my group would love to connect just subscribed:)
I see similarities between the 4th Chapter of the Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous) and her message about finding a personal connection to Jesus, and finding faith in Jesus in your own personal way and time, outside of what other people say, the power to define Jesus in your own words, in a way in which allows you to believe. To me, that freedom to believe is love.
You are a wonderful person. Thanks for sharing your emcounter with a 'born again' christian. It is easy for some religions to think they own Jesus as their own personal possession , but that can become a form of idolarty.
AMEN! So GOOD!
good video
Truth...
Preach it!
Much longer.
Acts 11:26b says, "he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."
I like the way this sermon started but then she started calling out individuals like the apostle Paul and whole groups of people like Catholics and Protestants and accused them of "stealing Jesus" for their own wicked means yet at the same time makes the Unitarians stealing of Jesus back from all these people a virtuous thing. Can't believe this is the same preacher that did a sermon on scapegoating. Here she is scapegoating people. Also, didn't like the way she publically made a negative example of a "diverse" woman who practiced "Hindu" yoga and Buddhism yet still dared to call herself a Christian. First of all, Buddhism and yoga are daily practices, ways of life if you will and not religions. Second of all, isn't this just another way of stealing Jesus by creating your own definition of what a true Christian is. What hypocrisy this whole sermon is!
Seems like she dislikes the idea of individual salvation.
That's referred to by Jesus as: "lost", "urepentant" and "damned."
God help her, especially since she poses as a "reverend"
God Bless You, from this foolish Unitarian Universalist Christian.
Here's the thing none of you seem to know! There's a huge difference, between a Unitarian Universalist and a Biblical Unitarian. One (U.U.) believes the Bible is unnecessary. The other (B.U) believes the Bible is necessary. You aren't even trying to understand this woman, Jesus Christ, or the God of Christ. Jesus is not God, the Bible and Jesus himself were explicitly clear about that fact. If you Love God, you will be open to his truth. Jesus' words can save you or judge you. Take Notice, for your own sakes.
"Jesus is NOT God, the Bible and Jesus himself were explicitly clear about that fact". Can you please cite some verses to back up that claim that Jesus is not God? I am not disagreeing with you, just interested in your sources.
Sure Sidney Goodrich, here are some of the differences, between Jesus and God according to our bibles:
1. God is all wise, but Jesus grew in wisdom.
Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
Hebrews 5:8 and 9
(8) Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
(9) and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.
2. God has limitless knowledge, but Jesus had limited knowledge.
Mark 13:32 (RVS)
“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
3. God is, and always has been, perfect, but Jesus needed to attain perfection through his suffering.
Hebrews 2:10
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
4. Jesus received holy spirit at his baptism. If Jesus were God and the holy spirit were God, then God would have been anointed with God by God. What purpose would this have served? We know why people are anointed, but what power could God give to Himself? Jesus was given the gift of holy spirit, the same gift he now gives to believers today.
Mark 1:9-11
(9) At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
(10) As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
(11) And a voice came from heaven: “You are my son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
5. God cannot be tempted, but Jesus was tempted in every way just as we are.
James 1:13 (RSV)
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and He himself tempts no one;
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet was without sin.
6. God does not need to be strengthened, but Jesus did.
Luke 22:43 and 44
(43) An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.
(44) And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
7. God cannot die. Scripture tells us that God is “immortal,” which means “not subject to death,” but Jesus died.
Romans 1:22 and 23
(22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
8. Jesus is not ashamed to call us his “brothers,” because we have the same Father he does. The Bible teaches that we are “brothers” of Jesus and “sons of God.” Scripture never says or even infers that we are “brothers of God.”
Hebrews 2:10 and 11
(10) In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
(11) Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
9. We are commissioned to do “greater works” than Jesus. This would be absurd if Jesus were God, because then we disciples would be commissioned to do greater works than God does.
John 14:12 (KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
10. Scripture says that God is spirit; yet even after his resurrection Jesus said of himself that he was not a spirit, but flesh and bone.
John 4:23
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.
Luke 24:39 (KJV)
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
11. The Bible says that God is not a man, but Jesus is very plainly called a man many times in Scripture.
Numbers 23:19a
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind….
John 8:39 and 40
(39) “…If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did.
(40) As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God….
Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
Acts 17:31
For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
12. Jesus is called the “son of God” more than 50 times in the Bible. Not once is he called “God the Son.”
13. God and Jesus have two separate and distinct wills. If Jesus were God, then his will would always be the same as God’s. Scripture tells us that it wasn’t.
Luke 22:39-42
(39) Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him.
(40) On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.”
(41) He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed,
(42) “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
14. It is important to Jesus for us to know who he is, just as it was important for him to know who his disciples thought he was almost 2,000 years ago.
Matthew 16:13-17
(13) When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
(14) They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
(15) “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
(16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.”
(17) Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
15. God has no mother. Jesus did have a mother.
Nehemiah 9:5a
And the Levites-Jeshua, Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabneiah, Sherebiah, Hodiah, Shebaniah and Pethahiah-said: “Stand up and praise the LORD your God, who is from everlasting to everlasting.”
John 2:1-3
(1) On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there,
(2) and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding.
(3) When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
Who do you say he is?
This is insane
More insane than wearing a symbol of the device used to torcher the "savior of man" to death as Christians do? More insane than thinking under garments are blessed by god as Mormons do? More insane than thinking women should cover their hair and ankles as most Muslims do? More insane than thinking some of the names of god are so holy that if they are written on a piece of paper that paper suddenly becomes holy for having the name on it as many Jews do? More insane than reincarnation? More insane than a talking snake? More insane than two of every animal in the world on one boat? More insane than Muhammad having a nine year old wife? More insane than polygamy? More insane than worshiping the elements? More insane than believing you have the ability to communicate with the creator of the universe telepathically?
Sorry, but considering the fact that the rest of the world has some pretty insane beliefs, this church is decidedly rational.
“Seek and you shall find, knock and the doors will be opened for you” - Jesus Christ
I think the historical Jesus is a fine place to start. Outside of the Gospels we actually know very little. With the exception of a very
small fringe group nearly all accredited historic scholars agree there was a man named Jesus from that time and place that allegedly performed miracles, had a following, was charged with blasphemy by the Pharisee for claiming to be God, and was crucified by Rome on their behalf. This does coincide with the Gospel accounts that Jesus Christ claimed to be able to forgive man of sin. In Jewish tradition only God can do that and Jesus was a Jew. This is why He was charged with blasphemy and this is supported by both the Gospels and secular historic accounts outside of the Gospels. Scripture has many other verses that claim His divinity. This includes the writings of the Apostle Paul. Many attempt to reason that this is merely Christianity misinterpreting these verses of Scripture. We often forget that Christianity was not founded on the Gospels. The Bible evolved from the proclamations and accounts of the religion of Jesus Christ not the other way around. The Bible as we know it was not even written until around 150yrs or so after the religion of Jesus Christ began. Apostolic Christianity did not steal Jesus. Christianity has given the love, forgiveness, and regeneration of our Lord Jesus Christ to everyone who chooses by their own free will to seek, find, and accept Him and who He claimed to be; or not. One does not need to accept the Gospels of course but to say they have been misunderstood by the source of their creation is far from reasonable IMHO. As there was at the time there still are today many that deny the divinity of Jesus Christ. I would be a hypocrite if I did not respect that for who has scoffed at the whole notion more than I once did? There are many who attempt to say that Jesus did not even claim divinity. To do so however would not only mean denying Scripture and the proclamation of Christianity that indeed Scripture is founded upon but to also deny written history outside of Scripture. Of course just because Jesus Christ claimed divinity does not make it so…
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman, a liar, or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a liar or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.” - C.S. Lewis
Aside from the merits of her message -- which is another discussion entirely -- I am rather put off by her attempt to mimic the style and manner of traditional African-American Christianity. Growing up in two African-American congregations I feel as though she has appropriated a culture and its faith tradition that does not belong to her or her privilege.
Of course I cant speak definitively about this, but I don't think her intention was to mimic or make fun of the Christian African-American tradition.
perhaps if you would stop listening to the inflection of her voice and focus on her words instead
Shouldn't people be free to choose how they want to worship and believe for themselves?
Do you KNOW she was attempting to mimic African-American Christianity? Perhaps, that is just how she IS.
Furthermore, does anyone OWN a certain faith? I'm pretty sure Unitarian Universalism is about FREEDOM to believe and worship how you want and what most resonates with you. Would you take that away from her just because of her skin color?
I agree with jcastano's post. Whatever her intention, I was put off by her co-opting of African-American speech which served no purpose that I can see. For me, it obscured her message. I don't believe that it was her intention to make fun of a tradition, but I leave it to African-Americans to decide whether or not this was appropriate.
I could care less about your religion or any religion.......as an athiest its irrelevent to me
rextrek I’m an atheist too but what’s wrong with stealing the benefits of his moral teachings and spiritual enlightenment? Even kids can borrow and be inspired by other characters, real or not. Captain America or super man have I’m sure given many kids a boost in courage and learning write from wrong. Lighten up brother dude! 😇