Almost all the recordings on Dave's "Overrated" list have made their way into my collection at one time or another. I was yet another listener/collector who, for more years than I care to admit, was guided in my purchases by the Penguin Guide in all its guises and editions. It took me longer than it should have to figure out that the PG's "rosette" recordings were to be avoided at all costs. And to admit that I frequently enjoyed recordings that they rated two-and-a-half stars or less rather than I did their three-star choices. I also went through a manic phrase during which I acquired all of Horenstein's Vox recordings with the Northeast Westphalian Rundfunk Orchester of Baden-Wurtemburg, et cetera. Oh well--at least those records and CDs were cheap. Speaking of orchestras: Does anyone rate Barenboim's recordings with the East-West Divan Orchestra? Or is it just the thought that counts? Among the admitted great musicians of the past, there are several whom I've just never been quite able to warm to, despite my best efforts to be impressed by them. This will be unpopular and reveal me as a total philistine, but Abbado, Brendel, and Schwartzkopf all make my highly personal Overrated list. To be fair, I sometimes think that HvK in general belongs on that list too. To be clear: I don't disparage these guys; they just don't knock my socks off the way I've been led to believe they will. Among living conductors who supposedly are Hot Stuff, the likes of Dudamel, YN-S, and Nelsons rise to the top of the Overrated category. (Along with the Lang Langs of the world, it goes without saying.) Or is it not that they are so much overrated as overexposed/overhyped?
Couldn’t agree more about the ridiculously overhyped young conductors - Yannick Something-Other’s appearances are about as ubiquitous in NYC now as the sightings of the city rats, and he seems to be is equally impossible to get rid of …
in the record store I worked at for a decade we had people who would only buy Penguin Guide recommendations. Putting pins in those balloons blown up by British critics was a fun activity. Many times all you had to do was play one and then play a recording I liked or rated highly. Same with Gramophone award winners! Once we put on a movement of the award winning Isserlis Bach Cello suites over the speakers and then without changing the stereo settings put on Jaap Ter Linden or Yo Yo Ma playing the same thing and watch the customer's faces just change! Once someone refused to believe that the Isserlis was even the same work.
Alas, I suffered that same attitude for many years. However, I started to notice more and more how self-suckingly consistent about artists that I did not even like, much less collect fervently, some of these "cult" figures, Karajan foremost, really were. I started really to trust my instincness more. I also noticed how deficient in musical perception and training so many of these critics really were.
Forty years ago when I wanted to avoid the sound of Michael Jackson being played in the background on my job, I purchased a set of mono radio headphones (don't remember if this was before Walkman or I was too poor to afford one) and listened to WNCN, a local Classical station. One day (I was a novice listener) I happened on a work, new to me, I found very exciting. Eagerly listened through movements 2, 3 & 4, more and more eager to have the host tell me what I was listening to.... The work? Tchaikovsky's Pathetique. The performance? Hoenschtein conducting....Somebody. No memory of who. If nothing else, old Jascha started me listening to Peter I. Don't believe I've heard any more Horenstein in the last four decades, but I still remember that one time.
Thanks Dave. This video is a strong corrective to all those sheep out there. I was a Penguin and Gramophone sheep for years. In that time I DO think there was a Rattle recordings that WAS rated massively, but turns out to not be ‘all that’: his Mahler 2 in Birmingham. It is still the only single recording to win *three* Gramophone awards (engineering, Orchestral and Record of the Year) and also a Penguin Rosette. So I *thought* I loved it for years and put the fact that my mind would wander in and out of the performance down to anything but the performance. Ultimately, exploration of several other performances showed how it really should go. And I didn’t know for years. I listened again last year and found the whole thing over-measured. Still enjoyable, but nothing like Ivan Fischer or Bernstein, to name but two. I would also say that Norrington’s Beethoven set was celebrated - overly - when it won a Gramophone Award. But yes, Horror-Stein is a good choice!
Another Gramophone ‘home decision’, and far from a good one…when clicking on Dave’s rundown I thought he’d mention the Rattle M2 with the CBSO…for me it’s the single most overrated recording of them all…averagely played, ploddingly conducted…even then I was familiar with a dozen better than it…a head scratcher!
@@peterdonnellan5497 Yes, I remember going out and buying it and expecting to be overwhelmed by it, I was completely underwhelmed by it and never listened to it again.
Agree with a lot of that, Dave; however: I have Horenstein's Rachmaninov Piano Concertos (Chandos, with Earl Wild, RPO) and they are absolutely fabulous! And not one instance of "rigidity" that I can detect. Incredible passion and virtuosic sparkle from both orchestra and soloist throughout -- including several highly effective accelerandos in an outstanding 4th concerto. The only one I don't rate would be no.2, and also the Rhapsody (i.e. "no.5") where, in both cases, I prefer Ashkenazy with Previn and the LSO. I'm not familiar with any of H's other work -- but this set is a triumph! (Have you heard it?!)
Perhaps a video or a series that plots the best and worst years of particular orchestras would be helpful. Dave, you gave the example of the Vienna Philharmonic was "scruffy" in the early 1950's. Tell us when they achieved their peak in the era of recording, timelines to illustrate the arcs. Thanks!
That was supposedly Ravel's own joke, when forced to listen to an American amateur play it on an ocean liner on the way to America. Possibly an apocryphal story, but it's a good word play joke.
David, why are you making me feel ashamed and dirty for using the penguin guide as my reference when I was 15 years old and discovering classical music? I was a child, David, a CHILD, how could I have known? All jokes aside: loved the vid.
Ha ha! Same here. I have 2 Penguins, a Svejda, and a BBC Music Magazine Guide, which all goes to show there’s no substitute for your own ears and the Hurwitz Guide.
Always entertaining Dave, thanks! I’m relatively new to the channel, been digging through your vids for a couple of weeks and I’ve noticed one very conspicuous absence so far: Sir Simon Rattle. So you’re not saying much.. but in the context of the works you’re talking about (by Mahler, Stravinsky, Debussy etc etc) that in itself says A LOT. So I’m a bit surprised that he didn’t feature in this video either.
I watched this with interest and pleasure, but I have to admit that I am not much bothered by overrated recordings. Yes, Kleiber's 5th hasn't caused me to dump my alternative versions, and, no, I haven't worked my way through the Collins Sibelius cycle that I have. But I'm generally interested in recordings and performances that other people like. I might not share their view, but it's rare that I really feel abused by getting something that doesn't strike me as transcendentally great. What _does_ bother me, though, is the things that are underrated because of parochialism. There, the Gramophone has frustrated me, particularly back in the late 70s and 80s with their knee-jerk dismissal of most performances by US orchestras as vulgar, unfeeling, and unmusical. It was especially egregious with Szell recordings, which were damned as technically perfect but utterly sterile. However, when Szell performed with a British/European orchestra, the results were somehow miraculously humanized. How lovely that the LSO had such a thaumaturgic touch! Besides irritation, I felt a certain pity: I can listen Beecham recordings and marvel at what I hear, but those guys in Royal Tunbridge Wells seemed to have closed ears and minds. Actually, one of the fun things about the Penguin Guide over the years was watching Szell's Wagner and Dvorak go from two stars, to two and 1/2, to three, and to three and a rosette. But that shows that they did, in fact, keep on listening!
Hi Dave. I do not disagree with any of your top 10. I loved Previn's Rachmaninov 2 for years until I heard Jansons' Oslo disc. Maybe that isn't one of the greats but Jansons really moved it along and made me think differently about the work and about Rachmaninov. We sometimes forget he wrote fabulous fast music! I like Karajan's La Mer but I learnt the work from two better versions (in my view): Toscanini with the NBC and Giulini with the Philharmonia. With Toscanini in particular, I immediately saw the sea in my mind's eye. I think Karajan's early EMI performance is his best. I've never been a fan of Horenstein or Ferrier - but voices are very personal; I like Peter Pears although many people can't stand him. Thanks not only for this but for the many more underrated recordings you cover in these posts. .
What about Upshaw's Knoxville (Barber). I love the piece, and this was my first recording of it, but I've since found it rather matter of fact compared to some others. I think it did pull the piece out of obscurity, and it is better, at least as a more modern sound, than the original Eleanor Steber recording, which my grandfather gave me on a scratchy ten inch disk. (Which somehow got lost int he murk of time). I never listened to it, even once, until I'd heard the Nonesuch recording, but then couldn't get past the lousy recorded sound.
Recordings That The Penguin Guide and Gramophone Led Me To Believe Are Remarkable But Left Me Cold: Karl Böhm's Bruckner 4 on Decca (have listened repeatedly since it was released on CD, always have to play another version immediately afterwards to ease the frustration and boredom), JE Gardiner's Missa Solemnis (could not get it out of the CD player and into the recycle bin fast enough), Michelangeli's Rach 4 and Ravel (nice performances, but not to the extent alleged by the Aquatic Flightless Bird Guide, check out Earl Wild in Rach 4 or Samson François in the Ravel, among many others), Murray Perahia's Beethoven Concerto cycle and (retreating into my bunker) the Du Pré-Barbirolli Elgar Cello Concerto (enjoyable as a one-off performance, but for repeated listening?).
@@jparfrey Celibidache, love him or hate him, had a special way with the ending of Bruckner 4, especially in the Sony version. Well worth hearing at least once (available on UA-cam IIRC).
Agree entirely about Karajan. However, I'm still a Horenstein cultist. I admit my ears aren't as knowledgeable about orchestra playing as David's. I can talk only about impact. Horenstein's Nielsen is my favorite. His Mahler 1 is surpassed only by Kubelik's (talk about an *underrated* conductor). I love his Mahler 3. His 8th makes the most sense of that noodling second part. His early Kindertotenlieder with Rehkemper for me stands first in line, not because of the high quality of the playing (a lot of clams from the orchestra), but because it conveys a sense of bleakness and despair unlike any other recording. His Rachmaninoff concerti with Earl Wild are gorgeous and exciting. I prefer them to the Ashkenazy/Previn set. No accounting for my bad taste. Speaking of Mahler, incidentally, whatever happened to Tennstedt? I remember when he was the greatest thing since Liquid Prell. Didn't do much for me. Do people still talk of him?
I recently gave the Horenstein Mahler 3 a careful listen just to try to come to grips with the wild divergences of opinion on this performance, and I think I kind of understand why some people fall under its spell. There were passages that allowed me to hear the score with new ears so to speak. It's hard to put it into words, but at times Horenstein brings a kind of straight-forward lucidity and concentration of expression that I found had a real impact on how I heard the piece. This was particularly the case with some wind solos in passages in the middle of the first movement. The problem for me was I didn't find that Horenstein was able to sustain this over the course of the entire work. On the contrary, there seemed to be large stretches of pedestrian playing - at least that's how it came off to me. And I am someone who listens for impact rather than note perfect playing. I'm willing to tolerate a fair amount of scruffiness and divergence from the written score for impact. I love Barbirolli's Elgar 2nd, for example, whereas the note-perfect Slatkin leaves me cold.
@@gregnyquist7714 Thanks. I confess that Horenstein's 3rd was the first one I heard. I may have imprinted on it or the piece itself overwhelmed me. As for the Barbirolli, that's my go-to Elgar 2, but David's comments on the Halle's playing resonate in me. Does anybody have another recommendation?
I think there are some classical/crossover superstars who are much more deserving of being called out as overrated than legitimate classical recordings from decades ago. In the big scheme of things today, these people have millions of followers, 99% of whom have never even heard of Carlos Kleiber or Andre Previn or Van Cliburn. I realize this may not be the kind of video that David would want to make, but someone should. Andrea Bocelli Charlotte Church Sarah Brightman Celtic Woman Bond Il Divo Lang Lang Jackie Evancho Lindsey Sterling The Piano Guys Andre Rieu 2 Cellos etc.
You forgot Liberace. I agree totally about "crossover" stars. None can hold a candle to a bonafide (and even "overrated") Classical Artist. However, I disagree about Lang Lang. He's a genuine talent. Does he have a hype machine behind him? Sure, but so did Karajan and Gould and other notables. Anyway, I'd still take those 3 guys any day over the rest the people on your list.
I still love Furty's 1942 9th and don't care who knows it. Sends me into raptures. Beecham said: 'Music is sound, either you like it or you don't'. Agree about Kleiber, didn't like his Brahms 4th either.
Thanks, Dave! One of the most enjoyable talks ever from you (hope I'm not overrating it 🙂). Totally in agreement with what you said about British critics. Personally, I found myself involved in various conversations with my British friends and I often got silenced when talking about DLvdE with Ferrier: God forbid one would say a negative thing about her, even if as a simple matter of taste. Another two or three recordings, great (no doubt) but excessively promoted by all are for me: Tosca, De Sabata; Tristan, Furtwängler (I'am also not a fan of Flagstad, sorry); Tristan, Böhm from Bayreuth, which I find, as often with this conductor, a bit matter of fact. Could we also have the most overrated pianists, please?
1. Don Giovanni (Furtwängler/Salzburg Festival) 2. Die Zauberflöte (BPO/Böhm/F. Wunderlich) 3. Der Rosenkavalier (C.Kleiber) 4. Parsifal (Knappertsbusch/ Bayreuth 1951) 5. Arabella (Keilberth/Della Casa) 6. The Solti Ring 7. La Bohème (Toscanini) 8. Don Carlo (Caballè/ Giulini) 9. West Side Story (Bernstein) 10. Macbeth (Shirley Verrett/ Abbado)
@@DavesClassicalGuide Hands down for me is the Goodall (Allbad) ENO Ring. Not the singers, him. Real cult stuff absurdly lauded. (Quite aside from his Oswald Mosely fandom!)
So much in agreement I cannot even list. But your body language when talking about Furtwängler‘s Beethoven reminded me of the late, hilarious, and missed Jackie Mason.
The Van Cliburn Tchaikovsky recording probably still receives all of the attention it does more for its historical than musical importance. Cliburn actually did music a disservice. He followed his mother's advice and learned a handful of pieces really well, but did nothing to expand or explore the repertoire. I think the farthest out on a limb he went was the MacDowell 2nd Piano Concerto. At least Eugene List recorded the first MacDowell concerto when no one else would touch it, regardless of what you might think of the piece. I believe it was on a Westminster recording.
Any chance of a "Bitchfest 2021" Shirt with a list of recordings on the back? Thanks again for the great content on this platform as well as the website. A definite joy that was much needed over the last year.
You might even split them into two parts: 1. Underrated recordings many people know but don't regard as well as they should. 2. Underrated because they are unknown.
I'm a newbie at your site and am enjoying it very much. The following isn't about recordings, but anomalies. In my extensive reading, I've come across two things. 1, the Beethoven 9th at its premiere was timed at 45 minutes. This was noted by Sir George Smart, who was trying to arrange the British premiere. He was amazed and didn't know how it was possible...and he lived during that time and knew Beethoven. Apparently, Richard Strauss matched that time in one performance. And 2, the first part of Mahler's 8th was timed at 30 minutes at its premiere. Again, this seem impossible to me. You're an orchestral player. If you haven't already, would you like to discuss these (and maybe other) timings in one of your posts? My own guess about the Beethoven is that the slow movement and other slow sections in the finale were taken much faster than is now traditional. His metronome marks? Well, that's another black hole.
I don't believe that. My understanding was that the Beethoven took about 65 minutes back in the day from timings I've seem. Go with your ears, not with second-hand reportage.
With you much of the way 😄! Here's my subjective (amateur) view: Kleiber - Beethoven 5: a solid B+ (or A-), Beecham's Schehe: a bit syrupy, good for a pleasant tea with scones (B or B-); Furt's Nazi era Beeth's 9th: try the post war one instead. Karajan's Debussy: variations on themes of Debussy. Cliburn- Kondrashin's Tchaik 1: good for the competition, well-played, and memorable for its historical significance... Horenstein: there is an intersting Mahler 8 recording
Great idea! May I give you a suggestion? The top ten UNDERRATED recordings. It would be a opportunity for nice discoveries, like that wonderful Temirkanov’ Rachmaninov 2nd symphony.
Yes, this has been suggested already. It's a lot harder than the overrated ones, and I've already discussed quite a few in the videos about specific works, as you yourself have noted. Let me think about it.
I love your scarcity theory - couldn't agree more. I love Beecham in general, but I completely agree regarding his truly overrated "Scheherazade". I'm every bit as rabid as you regarding the Ferrier/Patzak/Bruno Walter/V.P.O. "DLvdE", as well Walter's atrocious 1938 Mahler 9 (which he NEVER approved for release [for good reasons]).And yes, Barbirolli nearly always sounded better in London - much better. For me, one of my Top 10 Overrated recordings is the Solti Mahler 8. It's technically good for its time, but leaves me so 'cold', as to make me indifferent to the work. Solti is the only one who has managed to do that for me. To my ears, there's no music in his recording. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I've given the Solti Mahler 8 many, many tries. I could easily go into extremely specific detail as to how and why it strikes me that way, but won't. Suffice to say, I think it's overrated - not bad, just overrated.
@@HassoBenSoba . . . and there's a 'disconnect' between the soft-edged singing of the Viennese choirs,and the technically excellent, but also 'steely and mechanical' brass of the C.S.O. I'm real not crazy about that lineup of soloists either. I think they over-sing a lot. It's a very operatic approach.
I have the Horenstein Mahler 1 and 3 on Nonesuch LP. I haven't listened to them in years. I used to own his Bruckner and Beethoven 9ths on Vox with the Vienna Pro Musica. I no longer have them and haven't heard them in 50 years! You brought back some memories :)
It means the one most people refer to as the model version to which newcomers would be compared. It's determined by the universe of listeners over time.
Hi Dave, Re your Previn Rachmaninov 2 comments and in conjunction with your video on the available recordings of that piece. I listened to my copy (on vinyl) and to a number of others. I can imagine reviewers being blown away by the spectacular engineering and transparency. But Temirkanov is in a different league. Released five years after the Previn it doesn't seem to be around now but his 1991 recording with St Petersburg is available on the YT platform. Assuming a similarity in interpretations, Temirakanov is completely engaging from measure 1. You hear everything.
Through this comment, I finally found out which Previn Rachmaninov No. 2 you are talking about, because there are a few: RCA (now Sony) 1966 or EMI (now Warner) 1973 LSO, it’s the 1973 one. EMI reissued the Temirkanov on a couple of occasions - once with Previn’s 1974 Manfred, which Mr. Hurwitz dissects elsewhere.
The strange thing about Karajan is that his recording of Pelleas and Melisande is stunning. I had my doubts about HVK's ability to interpret Debussy well, but Pelleas changed that. It helps that he has the most radiant, mysterious Melisande in Frederica Von Stade and the wonderful Rochard Stilwell.
Great video and such fun to watch, thanks! I'm not surprised by any of them. I got to know La Mer by listening to the Karajan and wondered what all the fuss was about the piece to say nothing of not hearing the sea, then I heard Szell and Martinon and knew what the fuss is about. I think Barbirolli was probably too nice, I heard stories that he wouldn't sack people for fear of their livelihoods which is commendable as a person but not as a conductor, such a contrast to Reiner and Szell! For a long time the Anthony Collins Sibelius wasn't available or was ridiculously expensive here in the UK, when I finally bought it (thanks to his inflated reputation) God was I disappointed, I agree it's awful and I wondered if it was just me. Incredibly it has been praised again recently (as part of the Collins box, especially the dreadful Ist symphony performance) in Gramophone magazine by someone I thought should know better. I have bought so many duds and missed out on gems by believing critics in Gramophone and the Penguin (mis)Guide to say nothing of the atrocious BBC magazine which I now never read. What is wrong with some British critics' ears most if not all of whom have been partly responsible for the reputations of these recordings? You guys in the States are lucky. As for overrated performers, that would be a good video. My starters are Gergiev and Menuhin.
I agree and have been misled by reviews in both Gramophone and BBC Music, but I know which critics in those magazines to ignore and which to respect. The same is true with such American pubs as ARG and Fanfare! Both have their good critics and their dogs! Fanfare even dropped one because of so much negative feedback. At least that’s what I surmise because that person is no longer writing for them. The case of ARG (American Record Guide) is even worse where some critics can’t be bothered to write an actual review, but just state their likes and dislikes in a sentence or two. One of their critics even mixed up the work with another one, a recording of which they were reviewing. I wrote to ARG and they more or less apologized and were going to make the correction in the following issue. I never saw it.
I’ve got an addition to the overrated list, not a recording but an ensemble: the Chicago Symphony brass section when Herseth was principal trumpet there. Like you emphasize here, something can be good or great but also overrated. I played trumpet seriously when I was young, and got to know a ridiculous Chicago Symphony brass section cult. They certainly play louder than other brass sections, but not necessarily better. I remember an interview with the first horn player of the Philadelphia Orchestra. He commented that the brass section there understood that they were often not the feature in most scores, and backed off to play a role of blending with the rest of the ensemble and supporting them, unless prominent brass writing was actually called for. Compare the wonderful Tchaikovsky Fifth under Ormandy, where the Philadelphia brass blend with the strings and winds, to the Chicago brass in their performance under Abbado: the Chicago players blast out their accompanying chords like they’re playing the end of “Pines of Rome.” It’s ridiculous. And Herseth et. al. were not the only virtuoso brass players out there. Listen to Adelstein (the principal trumpet) and the Cleveland brass in their performance of Scriabin’s “Poem of Ecstasy,” or the New York Philharmonic brass when Gerard Schwarz and Phil Smith played first trumpet for them. I often prefer Phil Smith’s playing to Herseth’s. Smith’s vibrato is not excessive like Herseth’s, and Smith played better in tune. Again, the Chicago brass section was often excellent, but they weren’t the only first class brass section in the orchestral world like so many seem to think.
Hola buen hombre. Me gustaría saber, hablando de Sibelius, ¿Cual es la mejor grabación de Finlandia? (Por que hasta ahora me han encantado sus recomendaciones en ciclos sinfónicos). Gracias.
For me Dave, i have two: the Bach St. Matthew Passion with Klemperer and his all-star cast. This recording is so slow as to defy belief. it is just one-damn-note-after-the-other. I find myself barely able to listen to about 30 minutes before i have to stop playing it. But everyone i know who love this recording all praise it for the same reason: Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, or She Who Can Sing Nothing Bad. i much prefer Gardiner or Munchinger or Herreweghe. The second one i consider way over-rated is Beecham's Magic Flute. The male voices are just poor - especially in light of who the two principals were replaced by (Rosvaenge for Tauber, Strienz for Kipnis). And Beecham just conducts this work just a little too fast and too rough - or is that the fault of the 78 rpm timings?
Great episode, David, especially for this 1950s-NJ-born, music-loving cynic! But I believe the tedium (as opposed to the "Te Deum?") of Dudamel is approaching that of Horenstein.
My first time listening to La Mer was from one of those Karajan movies/fake live performance things he did, I think from 1978. Even the visual aesthetic perfectly matches with the sound they produce, so pretty and shiny and all those things. Then I listened to just the ending of Martinon's version, it sounds totally different, the phrases, the textures, absolutely everything and most importantly it actually reminds me of the sea XD. Great video David!
I heard Trocanini and Munch, respectively, conduct "La Mer" and any delusions about lesser recordings just popped like bubblebum bubbles into thin air.
Karajan's Bolero sounds not Spanish but like a Nazi military march band. No wonder Karajan was THE Nazi conductor... Karajan is totally overrated and he conducted only for the money and he did admit it. When he was asked about music he told reporters how nice his Rolex and Nazi car (Porsche) is!
Another variation on the theme of outgrowing the Penguin Guide: 1. Karajan's '63 Beethoven cycle (its very good, so are 20 others) 2. Klemperer's Missa Solemnis (better than Karajan's but. the. fugues. are. too. slow.) 3. Brendel's Beethoven 4. Andrew Parrott's Monteverdi Vespers (stiff as a board) 5. Colin Davis' Symphonie Fantastique 6. Abbado's DG Mahler cycle (good, but not great) 7. Rattle's CBSO Mahler 2 8. Giulini's Don Giovanni (the women are great but Waechter has no subtlety) 9. Karajan's Die Schoepfung (soloists great, choir blech) 10. The Baker/Lewis Dido & Aeneas (the lament is great, the rest starchy as hell)
When I started University in the early 80's, there were three musicians who died tragically who were given mythological status: Emmanuel Feuermann, Dinu Lipatti and Kathleen Ferrier on the vocal side (I was a voice major). Of the three, only Feuermann and Lipatti deserved the high esteem. As more time elapses, I feel Ferrier deserved almost none of the accolades she received. And I am totally in agreement about Horenstein. Leaden and dull as dishwater.
After reading the title of the video, the first I though was Kleiber's Beethoven also (Wand is my favourite here). Furtwangler an eternal Gramophone's must buy...totally agree with you.
Ok Dave here's my bad santa list. 1. Bohm Bruckner 4. Just average. 2. Furtwangler, 42 ninth. Terrible sound, weird tempos. Over dramatic. 3. Barbirolli in Mahler. 4 celibidache in Bruckner. 5. Simon rattle mahler 2 Birmingham . 6. Solti mahler 8. 7. Bach Brandenburg by Pinnock. 8. Tennstedt Bruckner 8. The mysterious conductor from the east, who we could never experience. Turned out like the long awaited coors beer being shipped to the east back in the 80s. Blah, ok. 9. John Elliot Gardiner Beethoven cycle. Toscanini without the genius. 10. Barenboim Bruckner Berlin, Furtwangler without his cult. PG.
Dave is 100% celebrity spokesperson material. I've seen your channel grow loads during the past year. I'd recommend doing top 10 most micromanaging conductors, top 10 most overrated conductors, your thoughts on the Schumann violin concerto and Ysaye's solo sonatas. Thank you for all you do.
Here are my suggestions (in no particular order): 1. Kleiber Beethoven 7 (As Dave has always pointed out, a rather mechanical recording) 2. Abbado LFO Mahler 9 (A particular favorite of British critics. Excellent but not quite Abbado’s best one [that’s the BPO one]) 3. Mackerras VPO Kata Kabanova (Good but not quite Mackerras’s best as Dave has previously pointed out) 4. Solti Schubert 9 (Surprisingly dull but managed to get a Rosette anyway) 5. Wand Bruckner 8 BPO (Another good but overrated recording Dave has referred to in the past) 6. Bernstein Mahler 5 DG (I know this is a reference for Dave and everyone else, but apart from the 3rd movement, I’ve always thought it wasn’t as exciting as others you could name - eg Chailly) 7. Zinman’s Beethoven Symphonies - any of them (not bad but not as special as others say it is) 8. Gardiner Schumann Symphonies - any of them (again, not bad but not as special as others say it is) 9. Szell Mahler 4 (Got a Rosette I believe, but Szell was never at his best in Mahler IMO - a touch stiff) 10. Colin Davis Berlioz Requiem Philips (excellent but not as special as British critics say it is - for comparison, try Bernstein or de Billy [a real sleeper IMO])
i'd love to know what you think of the Bernstein Complete Sibelius Symphonies. For me the sound is spectacular, his tempos are just right, and what he brings out in the orchestra is amazing.
Ho! I love BitchFest ! So I have to try to participate. I must admit, that not so long ago, I fell in the trap of the incense of the magazine Grammophon. Luckily i got out! For overatted Person, I can think of Guergiev and Pletnev (you may add Currentzis) as the conductor. And I would dare put Lang Lang in the overrated list as well. While he certainly has a great technique, he plays just like liberace sometimes. What a waste of talent. The Guergiev / Lang Lang combo in Rachmaninov is quite a thing!!
In honor of the season, I nominate Colin Davis' LSO Messiah. (Yeah, I know it's not a Christmas work.) Good soloists but big, heavy chorus and orchestra. And the sound congests whenever it gets loud, which is often. And that damned tinkling harpsichord all the way through.
That's not the impression I get of it at all: I find his Messiah exemplary for a modern-instrument version. (Admittedly, the sound isn't quite up to Philips's best standards.)
I’d nominate Karajan’s 1960s Beethoven symphony cycle. Undoubtedly very solid in quality, but the overblown praise baffles me, and frankly there are many equally good or even better versions. The Barbirolli/Barenboim recording of the two Brahms Piano Concerti seems to get a ton of praise on the internet, but I was very dissapointed by the sluggish tempo choices in the opening movement of Concerto #2. That movement also has some sloppy pianism near the start, though it gets better later on. Not a total loss, as they did at least interpret the first concerto very well. The Naxos CD of Liszt’s piano concerti under Petrenko/Nebolsin is technically solid in playing but rather dull to me, yet gets inexplicably praised. Totentanz lacks any menace in this interpretation.
I totally agree about Horenstein. As a college student, I’d make treks to the library to check out discs, and wonder why my listening ears seemed so disconnected to the adulation joyed down by British critics. However, I don’t think you’ve been unfair. One of my joys is to find any good stuff from an artist I’ve previously dismissed. Based on your review, I tracked down his RPO Dvorak Ninth…and it’s very good.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I live in St. Louis, and I read he used to lead a summer orchestra in Washington University’s quadrangle in the late 50’s. If I had a time machine, I could have suckered Horenstein cultists by recording those concerts and selling them.
Oh Dave, say it ain't so! I have only just discovered your amazing repertoire of videos and have been binge-watching them with great delight, but I felt stabbed me in the heart when you included Van Cliburn's Tchaikovsky First. I adore Tchaikovsky, I adore his first piano concerto, and have quite a few recording of it, but with no consideration whatsoever of "politics," I have never heard another recording in which everything at any moment seems to right as in Cliburn's classic account. You threw in a reference to Argerich, whose two recordings of the work I acquired--and quickly discarded, so I suppose we must agree to disagree.
@@s.k.angyal3768 The 1975(ish) 9th is very highly rated, and is on UA-cam. I very much enjoy it, though I am not sufficiently educated to judge whether or not it was, as the viewer above stated, "dumbed down" (whatever that means).
@@sw3aty_forte I’m a passionate listener and have no music education at all. For me it’s important if a performance touches me. I call it the “Goosebump Factor” and there are certain recordings of Karajan which achieve that a lot but unfortunately not Beethoven I’m afraid. I hope I’m not in trouble now ;)
Very interesting talk - where I know the recordings I often feel the same. My own suggestion for most overrated recording would be the Dvořák Cello Concerto with Jacqueline du Pré with her husband conducting on EMI. I’ve often seen articles saying this is the one recording of the work you must have. JdP was a good cellist and her performances of Elgar and Schumann may be fine (though also a bit overpraised). But Dvořák is just not her composer and her particular brand of romantic lyricism for me undermines the concerto’s particular robust and individual strength. She also made recordings with Celibidache and Groves but the same applies there. Also the balance on the EMI recording pushes the important orchestra right into the background. Maybe hard if you are a cellist and Dvořák is not your thing but there it is. Fournier with Szell is always there for everyone to enjoy!
@@mswdesign9164 No, it was Chicago and Barenboim. I don't believe Barbirolli ever made a recording of the Dvořák though I did hear him conduct it once, a very febrile performance with Rohan de Saram. After the concert you could see the pool of sweat left by the cellist on the platform boards.
Incidentally, the Barbirolli performance was over sixty years ago but, amazingly, Rohan de Saram is still performing tho mostly a different sort of repertoire now
Yes, the Kleiber Beethoven 5 is excellent. Overrated maybe, but only insofar as there are lots of good Beethoven 5s out there because it is one of the most recorded pieces ever.
Very interesting as usual - I have all of the “over-raters” that you mention; question: what is your opinion of the much vaunted Horenstein Mahler 3 on Unicorn?
For me two of the, if you like, 'reference' overrated recordings, in the Kleiber category of unthinking adulation, are the Barbirolli/Jacquline du Pre Elgar concerto and Glenn Gould's Goldbergs. Not that they aren't wonderful, but people tend to think that no other performances can possibly come near them. But for the ultimate overrated recording, maybe the Karajan Beethoven Triple Concerto on EMI?
No argument on your comments on Horenstein, by and of themselves. What about the Earl Wild set of Rachmaninoff concertos? Do they succeed as well as they do despite Horenstein's contribution? Are listeners so focused on Wild's playing that we don't pay as much as attention as we could or perhaps should on Horenstein? Not asking these questions to argue but would really like to read your thoughts on this set in the context you suggest. Thanks.
I discussed them in the video. I think Wild and Horenstein work very well together, and they're both terrific. But I was not thinking about Horenstein as accompanist.
Dave, I nominate Celibidache right up there as over rated. As far as Hornenstein is concerned I remember having when I was a kid in the early 60s having a Vox recording of Hornenstein conducting the Liszt Faust Symphony and the 1st movement was beyond slow but I thought it was great until later on I heard other versions played much faster tempi and by a better orchestras. But his version was considered wonderful by the English critics even though as it turned out it was dull mush.
David, This was not a concert but a recording of the Birmingham . It was a recording of Wagner’s “Flying Dutchman” it started out ok but around meas. 16 came the first mistake which after that, a new one began to show up over and over as the entire piece just started to fall apart. The conductor must have spent little time rehearsing this piece. I ended up laughing to the end. I recalled Spike Jones as this performance was on that par. Regrets to Mr. Jones who actually tried to perform in that venue.
Fame and Fortune! I got two of your list - Kleiber and Ferrier. My nr 1 overrated recording is the Glenn Gould 1981 Goldberg variations. Nr 2 is the Penguin Rosette Winterreise with Peter Pears and Benjamin Britten. Britten is greast - but Pears embodies Schubert meets nasal constipation.
The trouble is that if you want to have Britten you have to have Pears. And I have never heard a Britten recording I did not like, even though i would probably have hated the guy. Music's like that.
I can't unhear how Horenstein shifts the finale into slow motion in the last movement towards the end. I'm pretty sure it's not in the score since I've never heard it done that way, but it's convincing and I miss it every time I listen to other performances - it's so dramatic and epic (and I am no fan of conductors who "indulge" with Mahler). I get a kick out of Dave's distaste for Horenstein and agree with him that the performances can be technically ragged - with a lot of Horenstein you have to listen "through" the performance to appreciate what he was going for musically in my opinion, but when he pulled it off I find his recordings irresistible and unforgettable.
This is the orchestral list, I guess. There are opportunities for similar lists that encompass more singers and pianists and so forth. Particularly with some of the widespread cult favorites. For me, no list of overrated classical recordings (more broadly) would be complete without some Callas. And some Glenn Gould. And throw Peter Pears under the collective bus while we're at it. In terms of orchestral recordings/conductors, the most unjustified cult might be Celibidache, but I get that he's not broadly overrated, just wildly overrated by a select few. There are definitely some overrated Bernstein recordings that might be worth a mention, though. I'd be interested in a list of consistently underrated conductors/orchestras.
I could not agree more about most of what you are saying. Just a couple of points. Karajan's Debussy is certainly not what we have become accustomed to but that's not to say Debussy would not have liked Karajan's sonorities. Those recordings are worth buying in my view just to hear the BPO at their voluptuous best, a unique sound. A word also about the Halle orchestra which you call 4th rate. With the right conductor they could sound very good. Skrowaczewski's Brahms symphony cycle with the Halle is excellent, and even better is produced on a budget label, IMP.
A fun video. I was able to guess a few of your choices. The kleiber 5th is a big one for me. I heard about when I was searching for a great Beethoven's 5th, and walked away rather indifferent. I was good, but I refused to believe that was as good as it got. Szell's libe 5th, om the other hand...
I didn't ever know Furtwangler was famous for that 9th, nor that that 9th even existed. I only knew Furtwangler for his EMI Tristan und Isolde and that's were my knowledge of his work ends.
Curious if you are of a younger generation. During my 20s (in the 1970s) Furtwangler was a pervasive presence in the stereo magazines, touting him as the be-all and end-all of Beethoven performances.
@@tedtalksstamps That may be it, yes. At least, that must be partly the reason. I just never was much exposed to his work, but what you are telling makes a lot of sense. There's a following still, by the looks of it. And Warner handsomely putting together his records in a box signals there's a market.
@mancal5829 Record companies try to CREATE a market for the old recordings they have. I can't believe that the public writes in and demands these dusty ancient recordings of sloppy performances.
I'm listening to the Kleiber Beethoven 5 right now and it's electric! But it isn't the most cohesive recording. It never quite settles, too rushed and tatty in places. Still good though!
My picks for most overrated recordings: Currentzis Mahler 6, Zander Mahler 9 (worst sounding modern recording), Gould Goldberg Variations (the mono recording),
Thank you for trashing that god-awful recording of Das Lied with Ferrier; the most charitable way to describe her vocal contribution to this performance is hog calling. I'm not usually taken with Walter's Mahler, but his NYP Das Lied really nails it, and remains my favorite recording of the piece 50+ years later. Generally I'm a huge fan of Bernstein's Mahler, but Das Lied is the one piece he never really "got" in my opinion.
I would say Colin Davis symphonie fantastique with the Concertgebow. Certainly Ok. But miles away from the best fantastique out there (Munch, Markevitch, Paray, Bernstein, etc…) even though it has been praised as a reference recording. Well… not for me. Thanks for this video. Great fun
That recording turned off the piece for several years actually. I heard it and thought, "Well, if this is the best, then I guess Berlioz just isn't for me." Only when I heard other recordings did I realize, "Oh, Davis is just dull."
I recently found a copy of the English EMI original Temirkanov Rachmaninov 2. I had never seen it and didn't know it existed. That was a shock for someone who read The Gramophone from cover to cover from 1972 until 1979 as a gullible teenager.
Dave, I don't doubt your sincerity one iota (as Michael Flanders once said,"Always be sincere....whether you mean it or not!), however I do wonder if the inside of your right cheek isn't slightly sore from having your tongue rammed firmly into it!) Keep on with your classic videos. The first thing I do to start my working day is tune in to the Hurwitzer!
I don't know or care much about who rates what, so I have no opinion about what is "overrated". But I know all about my own most disappointing recording purchases - all from the 1970s and '80s. 10: Bernstein Mahler 7 on DG - less exciting than the old analog Columbia recording 9: Stern/Mehta Brahms Concerto on Columbia - Stern’s earlier version was far better 8: Solti Schoenberg Moses und Aron on London - earlier versions by Gielen and Rosbaud were better 7: Horowitz/Ormandy Rachmaninoff 3rd concerto on RCA (1978) - he just wasn’t up to it anymore 6: Heifetz Bach Solo Sonatas and Partitas on RCA - not as good as Milstein or Szeryng from that era 5: Pollini/Abbado: Bartok Piano Concertos 1 and 2 on DG - orchestra and piano do not gel 4: Beecham Sibelius 4 (1937) Turnabout/Vox reissue - first Sibelius 4th recording I ever heard - didn’t get fair warning about “historical recording” sound. Almost ruined Sibelius for me for life. In retrospect, the performance is at least interesting. 3: Michael Murray “Great Organ at Methuen” Bach, Telarc - sounds like it’s in a cave, blurry, turgid 2: Tomita/Holst - The Planets. RCA. I liked other Tomita recordings. Not this one. 1: Ormandy Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 7 (arr. Bogatyrev). Columbia. What a dog. What was Ormandy thinking?
How about the 1958 EMI recording of the Rachmaninov PC#4 and Ravel PC in G performed by Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli? It's the very personification of "much ado about nothing" ...
It's pretty terrific. Remember, this is not about whether or not you personally like something. It's about whether a recording is overrated. An excellent version is far more likely to be overrated than a lousy one. I agree that this recording may be overrated, but not because the performances are bad--it's because when they are splendid there's a tendency to stop listening to newer versions and simply parrot received opinion.
My Karajan cd has the following in the liner notes : Karajan had sailed since he was six, and was an expert yachtsman. " No wonder he understood Debussy's La Mer so well" commented biographer Richard Osborne.
@@epicemuchilz Karajan was indeed a keen sailor, & loved to be photographed posing on his yachts, his manly Aryan chin jutting out against the Baltic wind.
One that I think is overrated is the Carlos Kleiber Brahms 4th. Good, but it didn't blow me away, partly the leanish sound maybe. I prefer the VPO Karl Bohm recording myself.
With regard to criticizing Van Cliburn's recorded Tchaikovsky B Flat Minor Piano Concerto performance (with Kondrashin conducting), do consider that a musician/pianist no less than Vladimir Ashkenazy regards Van Cliburn's Rachmaninoff 3rd (also conducted by Kondrashin) as being the best performance of this piano concerto ever recorded (Ashkenazy asserted this opinion in CD 32, titled "The Real Rachmaninov", of the 32 CD set of Rachmaninov's/Rachmaninoff's complete works, in which Ashkenazy and Rob Cowan discuss the Russian romantic composer; the interview is courtesy of Gramophone). Assuming there is at least some merit to Ashkenazy's opinion on this matter, is the Van Cliburn Tchaikovsky really that far behind Cliburn's Rachmaninoff 3rd?
I didn't say it was bad. I said it was overrated, but since you asked, Ashkenazy's opinion is not dispositive of anything, especially since I was talking about Tchaikovsky and you (and he) were talking about Rachmaninoff.
Almost all the recordings on Dave's "Overrated" list have made their way into my collection at one time or another. I was yet another listener/collector who, for more years than I care to admit, was guided in my purchases by the Penguin Guide in all its guises and editions. It took me longer than it should have to figure out that the PG's "rosette" recordings were to be avoided at all costs. And to admit that I frequently enjoyed recordings that they rated two-and-a-half stars or less rather than I did their three-star choices. I also went through a manic phrase during which I acquired all of Horenstein's Vox recordings with the Northeast Westphalian Rundfunk Orchester of Baden-Wurtemburg, et cetera. Oh well--at least those records and CDs were cheap.
Speaking of orchestras: Does anyone rate Barenboim's recordings with the East-West Divan Orchestra? Or is it just the thought that counts?
Among the admitted great musicians of the past, there are several whom I've just never been quite able to warm to, despite my best efforts to be impressed by them. This will be unpopular and reveal me as a total philistine, but Abbado, Brendel, and Schwartzkopf all make my highly personal Overrated list. To be fair, I sometimes think that HvK in general belongs on that list too. To be clear: I don't disparage these guys; they just don't knock my socks off the way I've been led to believe they will.
Among living conductors who supposedly are Hot Stuff, the likes of Dudamel, YN-S, and Nelsons rise to the top of the Overrated category. (Along with the Lang Langs of the world, it goes without saying.) Or is it not that they are so much overrated as overexposed/overhyped?
Couldn’t agree more about the ridiculously overhyped young conductors - Yannick Something-Other’s appearances are about as ubiquitous in NYC now as the sightings of the city rats, and he seems to be is equally impossible to get rid of …
in the record store I worked at for a decade we had people who would only buy Penguin Guide recommendations. Putting pins in those balloons blown up by British critics was a fun activity. Many times all you had to do was play one and then play a recording I liked or rated highly. Same with Gramophone award winners! Once we put on a movement of the award winning Isserlis Bach Cello suites over the speakers and then without changing the stereo settings put on Jaap Ter Linden or Yo Yo Ma playing the same thing and watch the customer's faces just change! Once someone refused to believe that the Isserlis was even the same work.
Alas, I suffered that same attitude for many years. However, I started to notice more and more how self-suckingly consistent about artists that I did not even like, much less collect fervently, some of these "cult" figures, Karajan foremost, really were. I started really to trust my instincness more. I also noticed how deficient in musical perception and training so many of these critics really were.
Likewise, can you please do a 10 greatest sleeper recordings?
That's a great idea. Let's hope so.....
critics are allergic to creativity and positivity in general so dont hold your breath
almost all cello concertos ....sleeeeeeeep...
Forty years ago when I wanted to avoid the sound of Michael Jackson being played in the background on my job, I purchased a set of mono radio headphones (don't remember if this was before Walkman or I was too poor to afford one) and listened to WNCN, a local Classical station. One day (I was a novice listener) I happened on a work, new to me, I found very exciting. Eagerly listened through movements 2, 3 & 4, more and more eager to have the host tell me what I was listening to....
The work? Tchaikovsky's Pathetique.
The performance? Hoenschtein conducting....Somebody. No memory of who.
If nothing else, old Jascha started me listening to Peter I. Don't believe I've heard any more Horenstein in the last four decades, but I still remember that one time.
Thanks Dave. This video is a strong corrective to all those sheep out there. I was a Penguin and Gramophone sheep for years. In that time I DO think there was a Rattle recordings that WAS rated massively, but turns out to not be ‘all that’: his Mahler 2 in Birmingham. It is still the only single recording to win *three* Gramophone awards (engineering, Orchestral and Record of the Year) and also a Penguin Rosette. So I *thought* I loved it for years and put the fact that my mind would wander in and out of the performance down to anything but the performance. Ultimately, exploration of several other performances showed how it really should go. And I didn’t know for years. I listened again last year and found the whole thing over-measured. Still enjoyable, but nothing like Ivan Fischer or Bernstein, to name but two. I would also say that Norrington’s Beethoven set was celebrated - overly - when it won a Gramophone Award. But yes, Horror-Stein is a good choice!
Another Gramophone ‘home decision’, and far from a good one…when clicking on Dave’s rundown I thought he’d mention the Rattle M2 with the CBSO…for me it’s the single most overrated recording of them all…averagely played, ploddingly conducted…even then I was familiar with a dozen better than it…a head scratcher!
@@peterdonnellan5497
Yes, I remember going out and buying it and expecting to be overwhelmed by it, I was completely underwhelmed by it and never listened to it again.
Now, you know we will need the most underrated recordings.
La Mer (under von Karajan) is “smooth as silk and glacially cool. It’s not the sea; it’s a swimming pool; it’s a canal; it’s a stagnant bog.” 😂
Hello David: Can you also make a list of "Most underrated recordings " . I like such lists!
A veritable Classical Festivus ! It made my week, and its only Sunday night... Happy Holidays !
Same to you!
You are absolutely hilarious! Love watching your videos just to hear your particular sense of humor applied.
Glad you like them!
Agree with a lot of that, Dave; however: I have Horenstein's Rachmaninov Piano Concertos (Chandos, with Earl Wild, RPO) and they are absolutely fabulous! And not one instance of "rigidity" that I can detect. Incredible passion and virtuosic sparkle from both orchestra and soloist throughout -- including several highly effective accelerandos in an outstanding 4th concerto. The only one I don't rate would be no.2, and also the Rhapsody (i.e. "no.5") where, in both cases, I prefer Ashkenazy with Previn and the LSO. I'm not familiar with any of H's other work -- but this set is a triumph! (Have you heard it?!)
Try watching any video I have done in which I discuss those works.
Thank you! You hit most of my pet peeves in one short review. You went where no one dared to go in most cases.
Perhaps a video or a series that plots the best and worst years of particular orchestras would be helpful. Dave, you gave the example of the Vienna Philharmonic was "scruffy" in the early 1950's. Tell us when they achieved their peak in the era of recording, timelines to illustrate the arcs. Thanks!
"Pavane for a dead princess or in this case, dead pavane for a princess" - LITERALLY lol'd, droll and deadly, bravissimo!
That was supposedly Ravel's own joke, when forced to listen to an American amateur play it on an ocean liner on the way to America. Possibly an apocryphal story, but it's a good word play joke.
David, why are you making me feel ashamed and dirty for using the penguin guide as my reference when I was 15 years old and discovering classical music? I was a child, David, a CHILD, how could I have known? All jokes aside: loved the vid.
I used it to, and it worked--not because they were "right," but because it got me to listening and making up my own mind.
Ha ha! Same here. I have 2 Penguins, a Svejda, and a BBC Music Magazine Guide, which all goes to show there’s no substitute for your own ears and the Hurwitz Guide.
Always entertaining Dave, thanks! I’m relatively new to the channel, been digging through your vids for a couple of weeks and I’ve noticed one very conspicuous absence so far: Sir Simon Rattle. So you’re not saying much.. but in the context of the works you’re talking about (by Mahler, Stravinsky, Debussy etc etc) that in itself says A LOT. So I’m a bit surprised that he didn’t feature in this video either.
I watched this with interest and pleasure, but I have to admit that I am not much bothered by overrated recordings. Yes, Kleiber's 5th hasn't caused me to dump my alternative versions, and, no, I haven't worked my way through the Collins Sibelius cycle that I have. But I'm generally interested in recordings and performances that other people like. I might not share their view, but it's rare that I really feel abused by getting something that doesn't strike me as transcendentally great. What _does_ bother me, though, is the things that are underrated because of parochialism. There, the Gramophone has frustrated me, particularly back in the late 70s and 80s with their knee-jerk dismissal of most performances by US orchestras as vulgar, unfeeling, and unmusical. It was especially egregious with Szell recordings, which were damned as technically perfect but utterly sterile. However, when Szell performed with a British/European orchestra, the results were somehow miraculously humanized. How lovely that the LSO had such a thaumaturgic touch! Besides irritation, I felt a certain pity: I can listen Beecham recordings and marvel at what I hear, but those guys in Royal Tunbridge Wells seemed to have closed ears and minds. Actually, one of the fun things about the Penguin Guide over the years was watching Szell's Wagner and Dvorak go from two stars, to two and 1/2, to three, and to three and a rosette. But that shows that they did, in fact, keep on listening!
Hi Dave. I do not disagree with any of your top 10. I loved Previn's Rachmaninov 2 for years until I heard Jansons' Oslo disc. Maybe that isn't one of the greats but Jansons really moved it along and made me think differently about the work and about Rachmaninov. We sometimes forget he wrote fabulous fast music! I like Karajan's La Mer but I learnt the work from two better versions (in my view): Toscanini with the NBC and Giulini with the Philharmonia. With Toscanini in particular, I immediately saw the sea in my mind's eye. I think Karajan's early EMI performance is his best. I've never been a fan of Horenstein or Ferrier - but voices are very personal; I like Peter Pears although many people can't stand him. Thanks not only for this but for the many more underrated recordings you cover in these posts. .
Yes,
Here is my list:
1. Brahms Symphonies - Gewandhausorchester, Riccardo Chailly
2. Elgar Enigma variations - Barbirolli
3 Elgar Violin Concerto- Nigel Kennedy
4 Chopin Piano Concertos - Benjamin Grosvenor
5 Vivaldi Four seasons - Nigel Kennedy
6 Gorecki symphony 3 - Upshaw/Zinman
7 Beethoven Symphonies - John Gardiner
8 RVW London Symphony (original) - Hickox
9 Dvorak Cello Concerto - Rostropovich/Karajan
10 Schubert Symphonies - CoE /Abbado
I don't know all of the recordings but really agree with the Barbirolli Enigma Variations and the Gorecki. Good picks.
What about Upshaw's Knoxville (Barber). I love the piece, and this was my first recording of it, but I've since found it rather matter of fact compared to some others. I think it did pull the piece out of obscurity, and it is better, at least as a more modern sound, than the original Eleanor Steber recording, which my grandfather gave me on a scratchy ten inch disk. (Which somehow got lost int he murk of time). I never listened to it, even once, until I'd heard the Nonesuch recording, but then couldn't get past the lousy recorded sound.
Good video , Dave. As for Elgar's 2nd symphony, Barbirolli's earlier version (from 1954) is much better and quicker than the 1960's recording.
Recordings That The Penguin Guide and Gramophone Led Me To Believe Are Remarkable But Left Me Cold: Karl Böhm's Bruckner 4 on Decca (have listened repeatedly since it was released on CD, always have to play another version immediately afterwards to ease the frustration and boredom), JE Gardiner's Missa Solemnis (could not get it out of the CD player and into the recycle bin fast enough), Michelangeli's Rach 4 and Ravel (nice performances, but not to the extent alleged by the Aquatic Flightless Bird Guide, check out Earl Wild in Rach 4 or Samson François in the Ravel, among many others), Murray Perahia's Beethoven Concerto cycle and (retreating into my bunker) the Du Pré-Barbirolli Elgar Cello Concerto (enjoyable as a one-off performance, but for repeated listening?).
How can you handle two Bruckner 4's in a row?
@@pelodelperro Coffee. The first one has to be Böhm, though. I once tried to listen to Celibidache's EMI and Sony versions back to back but failed...
@@jameslee2943 Celibidache is in a race for last place with Horenstein IMHO.
@@jparfrey Celibidache, love him or hate him, had a special way with the ending of Bruckner 4, especially in the Sony version. Well worth hearing at least once (available on UA-cam IIRC).
I also listed the vastly overrated Michelangeli Ravel/Rachmaninov, which seems to have achieved the status of the Second Coming.
Agree entirely about Karajan. However, I'm still a Horenstein cultist. I admit my ears aren't as knowledgeable about orchestra playing as David's. I can talk only about impact. Horenstein's Nielsen is my favorite. His Mahler 1 is surpassed only by Kubelik's (talk about an *underrated* conductor). I love his Mahler 3. His 8th makes the most sense of that noodling second part. His early Kindertotenlieder with Rehkemper for me stands first in line, not because of the high quality of the playing (a lot of clams from the orchestra), but because it conveys a sense of bleakness and despair unlike any other recording. His Rachmaninoff concerti with Earl Wild are gorgeous and exciting. I prefer them to the Ashkenazy/Previn set. No accounting for my bad taste.
Speaking of Mahler, incidentally, whatever happened to Tennstedt? I remember when he was the greatest thing since Liquid Prell. Didn't do much for me. Do people still talk of him?
Tennstedt will be featured on 2 upcoming WFMT's "Collector's Corner" programs.
I recently gave the Horenstein Mahler 3 a careful listen just to try to come to grips with the wild divergences of opinion on this performance, and I think I kind of understand why some people fall under its spell. There were passages that allowed me to hear the score with new ears so to speak. It's hard to put it into words, but at times Horenstein brings a kind of straight-forward lucidity and concentration of expression that I found had a real impact on how I heard the piece. This was particularly the case with some wind solos in passages in the middle of the first movement. The problem for me was I didn't find that Horenstein was able to sustain this over the course of the entire work. On the contrary, there seemed to be large stretches of pedestrian playing - at least that's how it came off to me. And I am someone who listens for impact rather than note perfect playing. I'm willing to tolerate a fair amount of scruffiness and divergence from the written score for impact. I love Barbirolli's Elgar 2nd, for example, whereas the note-perfect Slatkin leaves me cold.
@@gregnyquist7714 Thanks. I confess that Horenstein's 3rd was the first one I heard. I may have imprinted on it or the piece itself overwhelmed me.
As for the Barbirolli, that's my go-to Elgar 2, but David's comments on the Halle's playing resonate in me. Does anybody have another recommendation?
@@steveschwartz8944 Boult is always dependable in Elgar, Solti is surprisingly good, and Mackerras is the sleeper performance.
@@gregnyquist7714 Thanks
I think there are some classical/crossover superstars who are much more deserving of being called out as overrated than legitimate classical recordings from decades ago. In the big scheme of things today, these people have millions of followers, 99% of whom have never even heard of Carlos Kleiber or Andre Previn or Van Cliburn. I realize this may not be the kind of video that David would want to make, but someone should.
Andrea Bocelli
Charlotte Church
Sarah Brightman
Celtic Woman
Bond
Il Divo
Lang Lang
Jackie Evancho
Lindsey Sterling
The Piano Guys
Andre Rieu
2 Cellos
etc.
In order to be overrated you first have to be rated.
You forgot Liberace. I agree totally about "crossover" stars. None can hold a candle to a bonafide (and even "overrated") Classical Artist. However, I disagree about Lang Lang. He's a genuine talent. Does he have a hype machine behind him? Sure, but so did Karajan and Gould and other notables. Anyway, I'd still take those 3 guys any day over the rest the people on your list.
you forgot George Winston. I don’t think the man even knows it’s possible to lift the sustain pedal.
I still love Furty's 1942 9th and don't care who knows it. Sends me into raptures. Beecham said: 'Music is sound, either you like it or you don't'. Agree about Kleiber, didn't like his Brahms 4th either.
Thanks, Dave! One of the most enjoyable talks ever from you (hope I'm not overrating it 🙂). Totally in agreement with what you said about British critics. Personally, I found myself involved in various conversations with my British friends and I often got silenced when talking about DLvdE with Ferrier: God forbid one would say a negative thing about her, even if as a simple matter of taste. Another two or three recordings, great (no doubt) but excessively promoted by all are for me: Tosca, De Sabata; Tristan, Furtwängler (I'am also not a fan of Flagstad, sorry); Tristan, Böhm from Bayreuth, which I find, as often with this conductor, a bit matter of fact. Could we also have the most overrated pianists, please?
Can we have the 10 most overrated opera recordings, David. Thanks.
Yes please
Maybe for Bitchest 2022!
Might ends up 10 historical Bayreuth recordings
1. Don Giovanni (Furtwängler/Salzburg Festival)
2. Die Zauberflöte (BPO/Böhm/F. Wunderlich)
3. Der Rosenkavalier (C.Kleiber)
4. Parsifal (Knappertsbusch/ Bayreuth 1951)
5. Arabella (Keilberth/Della Casa)
6. The Solti Ring
7. La Bohème (Toscanini)
8. Don Carlo (Caballè/ Giulini)
9. West Side Story (Bernstein)
10. Macbeth (Shirley Verrett/ Abbado)
@@DavesClassicalGuide Hands down for me is the Goodall (Allbad) ENO Ring. Not the singers, him. Real cult stuff absurdly lauded. (Quite aside from his Oswald Mosely fandom!)
So much in agreement I cannot even list. But your body language when talking about Furtwängler‘s Beethoven reminded me of the late, hilarious, and missed Jackie Mason.
The Van Cliburn Tchaikovsky recording probably still receives all of the attention it does more for its historical than musical importance. Cliburn actually did music a disservice. He followed his mother's advice and learned a handful of pieces really well, but did nothing to expand or explore the repertoire. I think the farthest out on a limb he went was the MacDowell 2nd Piano Concerto. At least Eugene List recorded the first MacDowell concerto when no one else would touch it, regardless of what you might think of the piece. I believe it was on a Westminster recording.
Any chance of a "Bitchfest 2021" Shirt with a list of recordings on the back? Thanks again for the great content on this platform as well as the website. A definite joy that was much needed over the last year.
I would love that shirt.
Dave, How about all those underrated recordings? That would be fun to consider.
You might even split them into two parts: 1. Underrated recordings many people know but don't regard as well as they should. 2. Underrated because they are unknown.
Sleepers of the Year! Great idea.
I'm a newbie at your site and am enjoying it very much. The following isn't about recordings, but anomalies. In my extensive reading, I've come across two things. 1, the Beethoven 9th at its premiere was timed at 45 minutes. This was noted by Sir George Smart, who was trying to arrange the British premiere. He was amazed and didn't know how it was possible...and he lived during that time and knew Beethoven. Apparently, Richard Strauss matched that time in one performance. And 2, the first part of Mahler's 8th was timed at 30 minutes at its premiere. Again, this seem impossible to me. You're an orchestral player. If you haven't already, would you like to discuss these (and maybe other) timings in one of your posts? My own guess about the Beethoven is that the slow movement and other slow sections in the finale were taken much faster than is now traditional. His metronome marks? Well, that's another black hole.
I don't believe that. My understanding was that the Beethoven took about 65 minutes back in the day from timings I've seem. Go with your ears, not with second-hand reportage.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for writing. It's easy to go nuts trying to figure these things out.
With you much of the way 😄! Here's my subjective (amateur) view: Kleiber - Beethoven 5: a solid B+ (or A-), Beecham's Schehe: a bit syrupy, good for a pleasant tea with scones (B or B-); Furt's Nazi era Beeth's 9th: try the post war one instead. Karajan's Debussy: variations on themes of Debussy. Cliburn- Kondrashin's Tchaik 1: good for the competition, well-played, and memorable for its historical significance... Horenstein: there is an intersting Mahler 8 recording
Great idea! May I give you a suggestion? The top ten UNDERRATED recordings. It would be a opportunity for nice discoveries, like that wonderful Temirkanov’ Rachmaninov 2nd symphony.
Yes, this has been suggested already. It's a lot harder than the overrated ones, and I've already discussed quite a few in the videos about specific works, as you yourself have noted. Let me think about it.
What you say about Beethoven’s 9th & Fürtwangler gives one great pleasure.
.
I love your scarcity theory - couldn't agree more. I love Beecham in general, but I completely agree regarding his truly overrated "Scheherazade". I'm every bit as rabid as you regarding the Ferrier/Patzak/Bruno Walter/V.P.O. "DLvdE", as well Walter's atrocious 1938 Mahler 9 (which he NEVER approved for release [for good reasons]).And yes, Barbirolli nearly always sounded better in London - much better. For me, one of my Top 10 Overrated recordings is the Solti Mahler 8. It's technically good for its time, but leaves me so 'cold', as to make me indifferent to the work. Solti is the only one who has managed to do that for me. To my ears, there's no music in his recording. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I've given the Solti Mahler 8 many, many tries. I could easily go into extremely specific detail as to how and why it strikes me that way, but won't. Suffice to say, I think it's overrated - not bad, just overrated.
I basically agree with you; it's pretty "steely" and mechanical. LR
@@HassoBenSoba . . . and there's a 'disconnect' between the soft-edged singing of the Viennese choirs,and the technically excellent, but also 'steely and mechanical' brass of the C.S.O. I'm real not crazy about that lineup of soloists either. I think they over-sing a lot. It's a very operatic approach.
I have the Horenstein Mahler 1 and 3 on Nonesuch LP. I haven't listened to them in years. I used to own his Bruckner and Beethoven 9ths on Vox with the Vienna Pro Musica. I no longer have them and haven't heard them in 50 years! You brought back some memories :)
I think the third is great. But Dave disagrees.
@@davidmayhew8083 It's fine :)
@@DavidJohnson-of3vh The end of the first movement? Wow!!!
This was a very good review. What does "reference recording" mean and who determines it? Thanks
It means the one most people refer to as the model version to which newcomers would be compared. It's determined by the universe of listeners over time.
Hi Dave, Re your Previn Rachmaninov 2 comments and in conjunction with your video on the available recordings of that piece. I listened to my copy (on vinyl) and to a number of others. I can imagine reviewers being blown away by the spectacular engineering and transparency. But Temirkanov is in a different league. Released five years after the Previn it doesn't seem to be around now but his 1991 recording with St Petersburg is available on the YT platform. Assuming a similarity in interpretations, Temirakanov is completely engaging from measure 1. You hear everything.
Thanks for reporting back, and for making the comparisons!
Through this comment, I finally found out which Previn Rachmaninov No. 2 you are talking about, because there are a few: RCA (now Sony) 1966 or EMI (now Warner) 1973 LSO, it’s the 1973 one.
EMI reissued the Temirkanov on a couple of occasions - once with Previn’s 1974 Manfred, which Mr. Hurwitz dissects elsewhere.
David, you're bursting all my bubbles. I want my bubbles back!
The strange thing about Karajan is that his recording of Pelleas and Melisande is stunning. I had my doubts about HVK's ability to interpret Debussy well, but Pelleas changed that. It helps that he has the most radiant, mysterious Melisande in Frederica Von Stade and the wonderful Rochard Stilwell.
Great video and such fun to watch, thanks! I'm not surprised by any of them. I got to know La Mer by listening to the Karajan and wondered what all the fuss was about the piece to say nothing of not hearing the sea, then I heard Szell and Martinon and knew what the fuss is about. I think Barbirolli was probably too nice, I heard stories that he wouldn't sack people for fear of their livelihoods which is commendable as a person but not as a conductor, such a contrast to Reiner and Szell! For a long time the Anthony Collins Sibelius wasn't available or was ridiculously expensive here in the UK, when I finally bought it (thanks to his inflated reputation) God was I disappointed, I agree it's awful and I wondered if it was just me. Incredibly it has been praised again recently (as part of the Collins box, especially the dreadful Ist symphony performance) in Gramophone magazine by someone I thought should know better. I have bought so many duds and missed out on gems by believing critics in Gramophone and the Penguin (mis)Guide to say nothing of the atrocious BBC magazine which I now never read. What is wrong with some British critics' ears most if not all of whom have been partly responsible for the reputations of these recordings? You guys in the States are lucky.
As for overrated performers, that would be a good video. My starters are Gergiev and Menuhin.
I agree and have been misled by reviews in both Gramophone and BBC Music, but I know which critics in those magazines to ignore and which to respect. The same is true with such American pubs as ARG and Fanfare! Both have their good critics and their dogs! Fanfare even dropped one because of so much negative feedback. At least that’s what I surmise because that person is no longer writing for them. The case of ARG (American Record Guide) is even worse where some critics can’t be bothered to write an actual review, but just state their likes and dislikes in a sentence or two. One of their critics even mixed up the work with another one, a recording of which they were reviewing. I wrote to ARG and they more or less apologized and were going to make the correction in the following issue. I never saw it.
Thielemanns Beethoven cycle belongs in here!
Walter's Mahler 9 VPO of 1939?
Sinopoli's Tannhauser
Boulez - anything romantic with feeling
"It's not the sea, it's a swimming pool."
Damn, David, damn.
I’ve got an addition to the overrated list, not a recording but an ensemble: the Chicago Symphony brass section when Herseth was principal trumpet there. Like you emphasize here, something can be good or great but also overrated. I played trumpet seriously when I was young, and got to know a ridiculous Chicago Symphony brass section cult. They certainly play louder than other brass sections, but not necessarily better. I remember an interview with the first horn player of the Philadelphia Orchestra. He commented that the brass section there understood that they were often not the feature in most scores, and backed off to play a role of blending with the rest of the ensemble and supporting them, unless prominent brass writing was actually called for. Compare the wonderful Tchaikovsky Fifth under Ormandy, where the Philadelphia brass blend with the strings and winds, to the Chicago brass in their performance under Abbado: the Chicago players blast out their accompanying chords like they’re playing the end of “Pines of Rome.” It’s ridiculous. And Herseth et. al. were not the only virtuoso brass players out there. Listen to Adelstein (the principal trumpet) and the Cleveland brass in their performance of Scriabin’s “Poem of Ecstasy,” or the New York Philharmonic brass when Gerard Schwarz and Phil Smith played first trumpet for them. I often prefer Phil Smith’s playing to Herseth’s. Smith’s vibrato is not excessive like Herseth’s, and Smith played better in tune. Again, the Chicago brass section was often excellent, but they weren’t the only first class brass section in the orchestral world like so many seem to think.
Hola buen hombre. Me gustaría saber, hablando de Sibelius, ¿Cual es la mejor grabación de Finlandia?
(Por que hasta ahora me han encantado sus recomendaciones en ciclos sinfónicos). Gracias.
Karajan/Berlin (EMI/Warner)
@@DavesClassicalGuide ¿La que contiene: Finlandia · En Saga · Tapiola · Valse Triste · Karelia Suite · The Swan Of Tuonela o similar portada?
@@HYP3RK1NECT Si.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Gracias buen hombre.
For me Dave, i have two: the Bach St. Matthew Passion with Klemperer and his all-star cast. This recording is so slow as to defy belief. it is just one-damn-note-after-the-other. I find myself barely able to listen to about 30 minutes before i have to stop playing it. But everyone i know who love this recording all praise it for the same reason: Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, or She Who Can Sing Nothing Bad. i much prefer Gardiner or Munchinger or Herreweghe. The second one i consider way over-rated is Beecham's Magic Flute. The male voices are just poor - especially in light of who the two principals were replaced by (Rosvaenge for Tauber, Strienz for Kipnis). And Beecham just conducts this work just a little too fast and too rough - or is that the fault of the 78 rpm timings?
the beautifully flowing 12/8 'Mach dich, mein herze, reh ' reduced to drudgery. One of many horrors in that recording!
Great episode, David, especially for this 1950s-NJ-born, music-loving cynic! But I believe the tedium (as opposed to the "Te Deum?") of Dudamel is approaching that of Horenstein.
My first time listening to La Mer was from one of those Karajan movies/fake live performance things he did, I think from 1978. Even the visual aesthetic perfectly matches with the sound they produce, so pretty and shiny and all those things. Then I listened to just the ending of Martinon's version, it sounds totally different, the phrases, the textures, absolutely everything and most importantly it actually reminds me of the sea XD. Great video David!
I heard Trocanini and Munch, respectively, conduct "La Mer" and any delusions about lesser recordings just popped like bubblebum bubbles into thin air.
Karajan's Bolero sounds not Spanish but like a Nazi military march band. No wonder Karajan was THE Nazi conductor... Karajan is totally overrated and he conducted only for the money and he did admit it. When he was asked about music he told reporters how nice his Rolex and Nazi car (Porsche) is!
Another variation on the theme of outgrowing the Penguin Guide: 1. Karajan's '63 Beethoven cycle (its very good, so are 20 others) 2. Klemperer's Missa Solemnis (better than Karajan's but. the. fugues. are. too. slow.) 3. Brendel's Beethoven 4. Andrew Parrott's Monteverdi Vespers (stiff as a board) 5. Colin Davis' Symphonie Fantastique 6. Abbado's DG Mahler cycle (good, but not great) 7. Rattle's CBSO Mahler 2 8. Giulini's Don Giovanni (the women are great but Waechter has no subtlety) 9. Karajan's Die Schoepfung (soloists great, choir blech) 10. The Baker/Lewis Dido & Aeneas (the lament is great, the rest starchy as hell)
Agree on the Davis' Fantstique on Philips (all three of them).
When I started University in the early 80's, there were three musicians who died tragically who were given mythological status: Emmanuel Feuermann, Dinu Lipatti and Kathleen Ferrier on the vocal side (I was a voice major). Of the three, only Feuermann and Lipatti deserved the high esteem. As more time elapses, I feel Ferrier deserved almost none of the accolades she received. And I am totally in agreement about Horenstein. Leaden and dull as dishwater.
I'll glad you made the distinction between terrible and overrated. Excellent list!
After reading the title of the video, the first I though was Kleiber's Beethoven also (Wand is my favourite here). Furtwangler an eternal Gramophone's must buy...totally agree with you.
Ok Dave here's my bad santa list.
1. Bohm Bruckner 4. Just average.
2. Furtwangler, 42 ninth. Terrible sound, weird tempos. Over dramatic.
3. Barbirolli in Mahler.
4 celibidache in Bruckner.
5. Simon rattle mahler 2 Birmingham .
6. Solti mahler 8.
7. Bach Brandenburg by Pinnock.
8. Tennstedt Bruckner 8. The mysterious conductor from the east, who we could never experience. Turned out like the long awaited coors beer being shipped to the east back in the 80s. Blah, ok.
9. John Elliot Gardiner Beethoven cycle. Toscanini without the genius.
10. Barenboim Bruckner Berlin, Furtwangler without his cult.
PG.
Dave is 100% celebrity spokesperson material. I've seen your channel grow loads during the past year. I'd recommend doing top 10 most micromanaging conductors, top 10 most overrated conductors, your thoughts on the Schumann violin concerto and Ysaye's solo sonatas. Thank you for all you do.
Thank you!
That was so refreshing...thank you, I'll recommand your channel to friends discovering classical music.
Thank you.
Here are my suggestions (in no particular order):
1. Kleiber Beethoven 7 (As Dave has always pointed out, a rather mechanical recording)
2. Abbado LFO Mahler 9 (A particular favorite of British critics. Excellent but not quite Abbado’s best one [that’s the BPO one])
3. Mackerras VPO Kata Kabanova (Good but not quite Mackerras’s best as Dave has previously pointed out)
4. Solti Schubert 9 (Surprisingly dull but managed to get a Rosette anyway)
5. Wand Bruckner 8 BPO (Another good but overrated recording Dave has referred to in the past)
6. Bernstein Mahler 5 DG (I know this is a reference for Dave and everyone else, but apart from the 3rd movement, I’ve always thought it wasn’t as exciting as others you could name - eg Chailly)
7. Zinman’s Beethoven Symphonies - any of them (not bad but not as special as others say it is)
8. Gardiner Schumann Symphonies - any of them (again, not bad but not as special as others say it is)
9. Szell Mahler 4 (Got a Rosette I believe, but Szell was never at his best in Mahler IMO - a touch stiff)
10. Colin Davis Berlioz Requiem Philips (excellent but not as special as British critics say it is - for comparison, try Bernstein or de Billy [a real sleeper IMO])
Solti's Schubert 9 with the VPO is my reference recording. So no agreement on that one... For the rest I do agree more or less.
Szell Mahler 4 indeed - a curious example of a very good but not outstanding recording being talked up on a pedestal.
i'd love to know what you think of the Bernstein Complete Sibelius Symphonies. For me the sound is spectacular, his tempos are just right, and what he brings out in the orchestra is amazing.
See reviews at ClassicsToday.com and in the Sibelius videos just made this past week.
Ho! I love BitchFest ! So I have to try to participate. I must admit, that not so long ago, I fell in the trap of the incense of the magazine Grammophon. Luckily i got out! For overatted Person, I can think of Guergiev and Pletnev (you may add Currentzis) as the conductor. And I would dare put Lang Lang in the overrated list as well. While he certainly has a great technique, he plays just like liberace sometimes. What a waste of talent. The Guergiev / Lang Lang combo in Rachmaninov is quite a thing!!
Kleiber's Beethoven is always the worst to me, but everybody worships them. Okay. We are different. Bye bye.
In honor of the season, I nominate Colin Davis' LSO Messiah. (Yeah, I know it's not a Christmas work.) Good soloists but big, heavy chorus and orchestra. And the sound congests whenever it gets loud, which is often. And that damned tinkling harpsichord all the way through.
That's not the impression I get of it at all: I find his Messiah exemplary for a modern-instrument version. (Admittedly, the sound isn't quite up to Philips's best standards.)
I’d nominate Karajan’s 1960s Beethoven symphony cycle. Undoubtedly very solid in quality, but the overblown praise baffles me, and frankly there are many equally good or even better versions.
The Barbirolli/Barenboim recording of the two Brahms Piano Concerti seems to get a ton of praise on the internet, but I was very dissapointed by the sluggish tempo choices in the opening movement of Concerto #2. That movement also has some sloppy pianism near the start, though it gets better later on. Not a total loss, as they did at least interpret the first concerto very well.
The Naxos CD of Liszt’s piano concerti under Petrenko/Nebolsin is technically solid in playing but rather dull to me, yet gets inexplicably praised. Totentanz lacks any menace in this interpretation.
I once walked out of a performance of Brahms's Second Concerto that was slow unto death. As for recordings, Szell owned this piece for a long time.
I totally agree about Horenstein. As a college student, I’d make treks to the library to check out discs, and wonder why my listening ears seemed so disconnected to the adulation joyed down by British critics. However, I don’t think you’ve been unfair. One of my joys is to find any good stuff from an artist I’ve previously dismissed. Based on your review, I tracked down his RPO Dvorak Ninth…and it’s very good.
Thanks for your remarks. Yes, even he had his moments. Just not that many.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I live in St. Louis, and I read he used to lead a summer orchestra in Washington University’s quadrangle in the late 50’s. If I had a time machine, I could have suckered Horenstein cultists by recording those concerts and selling them.
@@stevenbugala8375 You can still sucker them. Just record some lousy performances with anyone and say they're his.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Naughty!
Oh Dave, say it ain't so! I have only just discovered your amazing repertoire of videos and have been binge-watching them with great delight, but I felt stabbed me in the heart when you included Van Cliburn's Tchaikovsky First. I adore Tchaikovsky, I adore his first piano concerto, and have quite a few recording of it, but with no consideration whatsoever of "politics," I have never heard another recording in which everything at any moment seems to right as in Cliburn's classic account. You threw in a reference to Argerich, whose two recordings of the work I acquired--and quickly discarded, so I suppose we must agree to disagree.
The highly acclaimed Karajan 60's Beethoven cycle, still trying to figure out what all the fuzz is about...overrated to my ears!
Karajan dumbed down masterworks creating his "beautiful sound." This was done to appeal to the hoi polloi.
It's overrated but the 5th, 7th, and 9th are among the best stereo performances on disk.
@@iago7456 Thanks! You inspired me to listen and compare them with my favourite recordings once more, maybe I get it this time, I’m not giving up ;)
@@s.k.angyal3768 The 1975(ish) 9th is very highly rated, and is on UA-cam. I very much enjoy it, though I am not sufficiently educated to judge whether or not it was, as the viewer above stated, "dumbed down" (whatever that means).
@@sw3aty_forte I’m a passionate listener and have no music education at all. For me it’s important if a performance touches me. I call it the “Goosebump Factor” and there are certain recordings of Karajan which achieve that a lot but unfortunately not Beethoven I’m afraid. I hope I’m not in trouble now ;)
Very interesting talk - where I know the recordings I often feel the same. My own suggestion for most overrated recording would be the Dvořák Cello Concerto with Jacqueline du Pré with her husband conducting on EMI. I’ve often seen articles saying this is the one recording of the work you must have. JdP was a good cellist and her performances of Elgar and Schumann may be fine (though also a bit overpraised). But Dvořák is just not her composer and her particular brand of romantic lyricism for me undermines the concerto’s particular robust and individual strength. She also made recordings with Celibidache and Groves but the same applies there. Also the balance on the EMI recording pushes the important orchestra right into the background. Maybe hard if you are a cellist and Dvořák is not your thing but there it is. Fournier with Szell is always there for everyone to enjoy!
@@mswdesign9164 No, it was Chicago and Barenboim. I don't believe Barbirolli ever made a recording of the Dvořák though I did hear him conduct it once, a very febrile performance with Rohan de Saram. After the concert you could see the pool of sweat left by the cellist on the platform boards.
@@mswdesign9164 No ,No !!! The Dvorak was with Barenboim .
Incidentally, the Barbirolli performance was over sixty years ago but, amazingly, Rohan de Saram is still performing tho mostly a different sort of repertoire now
Yes, the Kleiber Beethoven 5 is excellent. Overrated maybe, but only insofar as there are lots of good Beethoven 5s out there because it is one of the most recorded pieces ever.
Very interesting as usual - I have all of the “over-raters” that you mention; question: what is your opinion of the much vaunted Horenstein Mahler 3 on Unicorn?
Don;t bother. If you read his reviews he considers Horenstein an overrated Mahler conductor. To each of his own
I bought that recording when issued on CD on the strength of Gramophone reviews…astonished at just how poor it was, played once but never again.
Conducting a complete mahler orchestra on a unicorn is quite the achievement...
Listen to the Mahler 3 review😀
@@epicemuchilz Ouch! Imagine 8 unicorns instead of French ones!
For me two of the, if you like, 'reference' overrated recordings, in the Kleiber category of unthinking adulation, are the Barbirolli/Jacquline du Pre Elgar concerto and Glenn Gould's Goldbergs. Not that they aren't wonderful, but people tend to think that no other performances can possibly come near them. But for the ultimate overrated recording, maybe the Karajan Beethoven Triple Concerto on EMI?
No argument on your comments on Horenstein, by and of themselves. What about the Earl Wild set of Rachmaninoff concertos? Do they succeed as well as they do despite Horenstein's contribution? Are listeners so focused on Wild's playing that we don't pay as much as attention as we could or perhaps should on Horenstein? Not asking these questions to argue but would really like to read your thoughts on this set in the context you suggest. Thanks.
I discussed them in the video. I think Wild and Horenstein work very well together, and they're both terrific. But I was not thinking about Horenstein as accompanist.
Dave, I nominate Celibidache right up there as over rated. As far as Hornenstein is concerned I remember having when I was a kid in the early 60s having a Vox recording of Hornenstein conducting the Liszt Faust Symphony and the 1st movement was beyond slow but I thought it was great until later on I heard other versions played much faster tempi and by a better orchestras. But his version was considered wonderful by the English critics even though as it turned out it was dull mush.
There's a very obvious sequel to this video to be made - do I need to spell it out?
Dave at his devilish best. Don’t listen to this while driving. You’ll wind up in a ditch, howling - in a good way!
"La Mer by Karajan: it's not the sea, it's a swimming pool" That was a good laugh, love it!
Same here!😅
David, This was not a concert but a recording of the Birmingham . It was a recording of Wagner’s “Flying Dutchman” it started out ok but around meas. 16 came the first mistake which after that, a new one began to show up over and over as the entire piece just started to fall apart.
The conductor must have spent little time rehearsing this piece. I ended up laughing to the end. I recalled Spike Jones as this performance was on that par. Regrets to Mr. Jones who actually tried to perform in that venue.
Fame and Fortune! I got two of your list - Kleiber and Ferrier. My nr 1 overrated recording is the Glenn Gould 1981 Goldberg variations. Nr 2 is the Penguin Rosette Winterreise with Peter Pears and Benjamin Britten. Britten is greast - but Pears embodies Schubert meets nasal constipation.
The trouble is that if you want to have Britten you have to have Pears. And I have never heard a Britten recording I did not like, even though i would probably have hated the guy. Music's like that.
I've always liked Horenstein's way with the opening bars of the fourth movement of Mahler 1. He really draws out the drama.
I can't unhear how Horenstein shifts the finale into slow motion in the last movement towards the end. I'm pretty sure it's not in the score since I've never heard it done that way, but it's convincing and I miss it every time I listen to other performances - it's so dramatic and epic (and I am no fan of conductors who "indulge" with Mahler). I get a kick out of Dave's distaste for Horenstein and agree with him that the performances can be technically ragged - with a lot of Horenstein you have to listen "through" the performance to appreciate what he was going for musically in my opinion, but when he pulled it off I find his recordings irresistible and unforgettable.
This is the orchestral list, I guess. There are opportunities for similar lists that encompass more singers and pianists and so forth. Particularly with some of the widespread cult favorites. For me, no list of overrated classical recordings (more broadly) would be complete without some Callas. And some Glenn Gould. And throw Peter Pears under the collective bus while we're at it. In terms of orchestral recordings/conductors, the most unjustified cult might be Celibidache, but I get that he's not broadly overrated, just wildly overrated by a select few. There are definitely some overrated Bernstein recordings that might be worth a mention, though.
I'd be interested in a list of consistently underrated conductors/orchestras.
I could not agree more about most of what you are saying. Just a couple of points. Karajan's Debussy is certainly not what we have become accustomed to but that's not to say Debussy would not have liked Karajan's sonorities. Those recordings are worth buying in my view just to hear the BPO at their voluptuous best, a unique sound.
A word also about the Halle orchestra which you call 4th rate. With the right conductor they could sound very good. Skrowaczewski's Brahms symphony cycle with the Halle is excellent, and even better is produced on a budget label, IMP.
With the right conductor anyone can sound very good.
A fun video. I was able to guess a few of your choices. The kleiber 5th is a big one for me. I heard about when I was searching for a great Beethoven's 5th, and walked away rather indifferent. I was good, but I refused to believe that was as good as it got. Szell's libe 5th, om the other hand...
I didn't ever know Furtwangler was famous for that 9th, nor that that 9th even existed. I only knew Furtwangler for his EMI Tristan und Isolde and that's were my knowledge of his work ends.
Curious if you are of a younger generation. During my 20s (in the 1970s) Furtwangler was a pervasive presence in the stereo magazines, touting him as the be-all and end-all of Beethoven performances.
@@tedtalksstamps That may be it, yes. At least, that must be partly the reason. I just never was much exposed to his work, but what you are telling makes a lot of sense. There's a following still, by the looks of it. And Warner handsomely putting together his records in a box signals there's a market.
@mancal5829 Record companies try to CREATE a market for the old recordings they have. I can't believe that the public writes in and demands these dusty ancient recordings of sloppy performances.
So right about Horenstein. I bought everything I could find and I no longer own any of them!
I'm listening to the Kleiber Beethoven 5 right now and it's electric! But it isn't the most cohesive recording. It never quite settles, too rushed and tatty in places. Still good though!
My picks for most overrated recordings: Currentzis Mahler 6, Zander Mahler 9 (worst sounding modern recording), Gould Goldberg Variations (the mono recording),
Thank you for trashing that god-awful recording of Das Lied with Ferrier; the most charitable way to describe her vocal contribution to this performance is hog calling. I'm not usually taken with Walter's Mahler, but his NYP Das Lied really nails it, and remains my favorite recording of the piece 50+ years later. Generally I'm a huge fan of Bernstein's Mahler, but Das Lied is the one piece he never really "got" in my opinion.
While it is probably very good, Barbirollei and Pré's Elgar Cello Concerto was over-acclaimed beyond belief, that it has become quite overrated.
I would say Colin Davis symphonie fantastique with the Concertgebow. Certainly Ok. But miles away from the best fantastique out there (Munch, Markevitch, Paray, Bernstein, etc…) even though it has been praised as a reference recording. Well… not for me. Thanks for this video. Great fun
That's definitely a contender for most overrated. I agree with you completely. It's just boring.
That recording turned off the piece for several years actually. I heard it and thought, "Well, if this is the best, then I guess Berlioz just isn't for me." Only when I heard other recordings did I realize, "Oh, Davis is just dull."
I recently found a copy of the English EMI original Temirkanov Rachmaninov 2. I had never seen it and didn't know it existed. That was a shock for someone who read The Gramophone from cover to cover from 1972 until 1979 as a gullible teenager.
Dave, I don't doubt your sincerity one iota (as Michael Flanders once said,"Always be sincere....whether you mean it or not!), however I do wonder if the inside of your right cheek isn't slightly sore from having your tongue rammed firmly into it!) Keep on with your classic videos. The first thing I do to start my working day is tune in to the Hurwitzer!
Hi Dave, have you made a video of the ten best ever recordings?
There is no such thing.
@@DavesClassicalGuide you’re right, of course.
I don't know or care much about who rates what, so I have no opinion about what is "overrated".
But I know all about my own most disappointing recording purchases - all from the 1970s and '80s.
10: Bernstein Mahler 7 on DG - less exciting than the old analog Columbia recording
9: Stern/Mehta Brahms Concerto on Columbia - Stern’s earlier version was far better
8: Solti Schoenberg Moses und Aron on London - earlier versions by Gielen and Rosbaud were better
7: Horowitz/Ormandy Rachmaninoff 3rd concerto on RCA (1978) - he just wasn’t up to it anymore
6: Heifetz Bach Solo Sonatas and Partitas on RCA - not as good as Milstein or Szeryng from that era
5: Pollini/Abbado: Bartok Piano Concertos 1 and 2 on DG - orchestra and piano do not gel
4: Beecham Sibelius 4 (1937) Turnabout/Vox reissue - first Sibelius 4th recording I ever heard - didn’t get fair warning about “historical recording” sound. Almost ruined Sibelius for me for life. In retrospect, the performance is at least interesting.
3: Michael Murray “Great Organ at Methuen” Bach, Telarc - sounds like it’s in a cave, blurry, turgid
2: Tomita/Holst - The Planets. RCA. I liked other Tomita recordings. Not this one.
1: Ormandy Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 7 (arr. Bogatyrev). Columbia. What a dog. What was Ormandy thinking?
How about the 1958 EMI recording of the Rachmaninov PC#4 and Ravel PC in G performed by Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli? It's the very personification of "much ado about nothing" ...
It's pretty terrific. Remember, this is not about whether or not you personally like something. It's about whether a recording is overrated. An excellent version is far more likely to be overrated than a lousy one. I agree that this recording may be overrated, but not because the performances are bad--it's because when they are splendid there's a tendency to stop listening to newer versions and simply parrot received opinion.
My Karajan cd has the following in the liner notes : Karajan had sailed since he was six, and was an expert yachtsman. " No wonder he understood Debussy's La Mer so well" commented biographer Richard Osborne.
You're joking, right? Right....?
Meanwhile, Debussy himself almost never went near the sea as an adult.
@@epicemuchilz Karajan was indeed a keen sailor, & loved to be photographed posing on his yachts, his manly Aryan chin jutting out against the Baltic wind.
One that I think is overrated is the Carlos Kleiber Brahms 4th. Good, but it didn't blow me away, partly the leanish sound maybe. I prefer the VPO Karl Bohm recording myself.
3.25pm Gmt.
Agree about the Previn/Rachmaminov 2nd my favourite is Walter Weller with LPO
With regard to criticizing Van Cliburn's recorded Tchaikovsky B Flat Minor Piano Concerto performance (with Kondrashin conducting), do consider that a musician/pianist no less than Vladimir Ashkenazy regards Van Cliburn's Rachmaninoff 3rd (also conducted by Kondrashin) as being the best performance of this piano concerto ever recorded (Ashkenazy asserted this opinion in CD 32, titled "The Real Rachmaninov", of the 32 CD set of Rachmaninov's/Rachmaninoff's complete works, in which Ashkenazy and Rob Cowan discuss the Russian romantic composer; the interview is courtesy of Gramophone). Assuming there is at least some merit to Ashkenazy's opinion on this matter, is the Van Cliburn Tchaikovsky really that far behind Cliburn's Rachmaninoff 3rd?
I didn't say it was bad. I said it was overrated, but since you asked, Ashkenazy's opinion is not dispositive of anything, especially since I was talking about Tchaikovsky and you (and he) were talking about Rachmaninoff.
I really love Furtwangler's 1942 9th for its apocalyptic intensity, but I am fully aware it's not how the 9th is supposed to sound at all.
Wonderful. So good to see the Beecham Schezerade properly placed. Nowhere near the Reiner classic
I agree completely my personal fav kondrashin is way more exciting and engaging, Beecham doesn’t come close.
@@irinadragos I don't know the Kondrashin. I'll look out for it!
Kondrashin and Maazel are favourites for me, here (both of Maazel's)
You are just great Dave, i never miss a video and i am really consideting the iscription to Classic today, thanks from Italy.
Thanks very much.
My first complete Sibelius cycle was Collin’s; I boot sight unseen and ear unheard and solely by hype and promotion. I was shocked at how bad it was.
I really enjoyed this. I'm a little surprised that no Bernstein with Berlin found its way here.
It could have!