I remember blowing the needle right off my dad's Simpson 260 series 3. I was always destroying his tools. I don't know why he never killed me. I still have the meter, with the needle in pieces, bouncing around inside. I miss him.
I broke a lot of my father's tools also. Just one of many of the reasons that I never had kids of my own. And yes, he loved his Simpson 260s, used one at his job (R&M electrician) almost until the day he retired.
We were forced in the school to use analog multimeters, although the digital at that era existed... the reason (according to teacher) - to understand, how it works. I hated it.
I work in telecom and carry both a Fluke 177, which gets used the most, and a trusty old Simpson 260. The Fluke DMM is utterly useless when trying to look for cable faults, specifically grounds, on copper cable that has AC power influence on it. The Simpson will show the fault no problem but the Fluke will not due to the interference of the induced AC. Good analog meters still due have a place in this day and age.
I also have to use it to catch quick high voltage pulses when working on an HDSL circuit because the DMM doesn't seem to update quick enough to see them most of the time. Seeing the needle jump to 180VDC is much easier. Accuracy is not part of the equation, visualization is.
analog meters are irreplaceable for audio measurement and adjustment, as the needle 'moves less' than a typical digital meter. I use an analog AC millivolt meter when I calibrate tape decks, near impossible to do with a digital meter. Having said that though, for most other measurements, digital is the way to go. But, analog meters do have their preferred uses in certain applications.
The exact reason I have one. It is much easier to peak something when you watch a needle peak and not numbers counting. A digital one that shows you some sort of graph will work but a simple analog multimeter is much easier. Same with RF power. Use whatever meter you want but at the end of the day an analog Bird 43 meter is the standard and what you will be judged with.
One of the best reasons I've heard to use an analog multimeter is when measurements are being made in an extremely cold environment (like outdoors during Canadian winters ;) ). When it's very cold that's when LCD displays start slowing down making it difficult to take measurements and analog displays continue without any noticeable problems. At least that's been my experience.
No one uses analog meters anymore? Be sure to tell Simpson and Triplett and Sanwa and Gossen and all the rest of the manufacturers that still make them.
I find analog meters useful for checking pots for dead spots. I'll have to try a digital on one again and see if the bargraph can show a deadspot. Thanks for the video Dave.
Testing pots/varistors/switches for dead (open/short) spots can't really be done with a digital. My most common use is testing throttle position sensors on vehicles. Analog meters make that test stupid easy. Digital meters miss at least 15% due to refresh rate. All I need to see is the needle jump reliably at the same place 3 tests in a row and you're never going to find that with a digital. That's pretty much the only thing I use my old analogs for. Or if the batteries are dead in the digitals and I need a voltage measurement now.
I have 6 meters in my workshop but I still use the analog one when testing transistors in audio work. The reason it makes life easier for me just taking a glance at the pointer and see the angle instead of reading the digits in a digital multi meter. Testing resistance with a DMM sometimes will give erratic readings to a pre energized circuit. Even the slightest voltage will disturb the readings and I have to disconnect the particular resistor to get the true reading. Electrolytic capacitors will hold a small voltage even when switched off for a long time.
Its a very useful tool to have. I find there is nothing faster when doing troubleshooting. I set the meter where I can have it in my peripheral vision when I'm poking around taking rough measurements. Obviously a DMM will be more accurate and have better resolution, I have lots of Flukes. It's not a matter of which is a better meter, its using the right tool for the job.
I still prefer analog over digital call me old fashioned. Most measurements do not have to be that accurate anyway and you can see right away what's going on
they are still used on the american railroad for checking for grounds in the non grounded dc system. I used them when I worked for Norfolk southern railway and we had a digital meter but all track and grounds checks were done with simpson 113. here is the meter we used www.simpsonelectric.com/products/test-equipment/special-test-equipment/ts113-multimeter-for-railroad
It's not because it's better, it's just not cost effective, practical to change the procedures and equipment out and have to retrain and document. You can still buy some really old meters new and their whole market is because procedures and procurement are too hard to change. The above could be a life or death situation, changing everything is risky unless they get something out of it.
The thing that bugs me most about digital meters is the damn things turn them selves off after a few idle minutes. Ok, it may save battery life but it annoys the crap out of me!
My dad had a Simpson 260 and I would use it all the time. I got excited when digital meters came out, but my dad liked the Simpsons because if you have an intermittent circuit, the needle on the Simpson will respond and give you an instant result.
Analogue meters still have their place, all the workshops I worked in had one somewhere. I still have my first meter, a Maplin analogue multimeter from 1988 - with transistor tester!! (Sadly Maplin Electronics in the UK has just shut down)
Maplin was a shadow of its former self. I still have a section of the catalog I tore out which showed the pinouts for all the ICs they sold. Why do all technical stores end up going that way?
It is hard to beat a cluster of analog meters to quickly give you a quick idea that the process you are monitoring is working or something is going amuck. They will always have their place. They aren't better nor worse, they are simply different.
Exactly, perfect for e.g. showing that a bunch of temperatures in your process are close to perfect (needle vertical), a bit below/above, a lot below/above, ... All by having even only a swift glance at the panel. Even led vu-meters aren't as good for that. Of course, these aren't multimeters anymore.
Hey Dave? I just completed performing Electrical measurements at tafe as part of my diesel fitting apprenticeship. This video, if it was shortened would be super useful for the teachers to explain the differences between the tools. If you make a shorter version i would link it to my teachers.
I think one of the huge benefit of starting with an analogue multimeter - I got my first in 1982 - was it gave you a good grip on measurement error early on: as Dave pointed out, these things are less accurate than their digital counterparts, the resolution was quite low and you'd better be sure you were dead in front of the thing to read it correctly.
I tend to agree that the old technology and ways should not be completely discarded and forgotten just because they have been displaced. At a minimum it would be useful if they were still documented, new better might come from these older things. On a side note, I did petition the FCC to keep the Morse code requirement in the highest amateur radio license, but the Morse code requirement has been removed. I guess it is OK, there is still Morse on the air, but, as Dave might say, I wonder if it is only gray hairs using it.
Friend of mine found one use for an analog meter, he had an issue where his car battery kept running flat (some years ago now). He tested with a DMM to see how much current was being drawn when the car was off, saw a lot of bugger all. Connected an analog meter, saw it kicking about once a second, of all things it was the clock.
Dave, I just love your videos the most. The rhyme or reason being your ability to HIGHLIGHT and speak boldly on the loopholes even on the greatest brands like Fluke or Simpson in that matter. Thanks for highlighting all the points of pros & cons. I was about to loss handsome amount on a particular analog meter. I will drop the idea of purchasing now. Loved it!
But Dave I still use my analog insulation resistance meter everyday, much easier to find electrical faults over a slow digital type. Especially if the fault is random, you can see the needle fluctuate as the digital types tend to dick around.
You cannot beat an analog multimeter for checking small DC motors. Using the ohm Rx1 scale, you can immediately see if the motor has dead spots (shorts and opens) at various angles by how much the meter jumps around. Shoot, you don't even need to turn the motor shaft by hand to check it too as most analog VOMs will spin the motor. Even will tell you if the bearings are binding. To a less extent, peaking or adjusting for a null is a little better on an analog meter. But yes, for every thing else, you cannot beat modern DVM.
I still use an analog meter (and a VTVM at that) when doing RF alignments. Much easier to tune for a peak or dip using an analog meter, even compared to the bargraph on my Fluke DMMs. The "output" jack on a VOM was intended to be fed out to an oscilloscope, typically used for looking at ripple on power supply rails.
I agree, even with a Fluke and the graphing indicator it still isn't as easy to do RF alignments, as it is with a VTVM. RF alignments is the only use now days I have for my VTVM.
Sure I use DMMs now, but I miss analogs for one reason : when checking an expected voltage, I could register the needle position within a corner of my eye, not having to directly look at the meter, thus knowing whether I've found, say, 12V or not. With DMMs, even with bar graph - you have to look into the display. I find DMMs to be measurement instruments, while analogs are representation instruments.
Exactly the same reason why many cockpit instruments, pressure indicators, etc. use an analog style display. I say analog style, because the displays are purely digital. A lot of the "analog multimeters are better because..." reasons - other than the ones about very niche applications (GHz AC?) for which I'm sure there are niche DMMs available - are similarly not actually about how the multimeter fundamentally functions, but about how the information gets displayed. Swap out the fixed-segment LCDs for a matrix one (given prices, just go full graphical TFT LCD) and now you can display accurate values as well as graphical presentations however you design it - from a classic analog meter look through to a basic and dirty 'oscilloscope' view.
If you try to measure 10V and the meter rapidly jumps between 9.xx and 10.00 V, makes it look like you have almost 20 V if you don't think hard enough. What could be better than if your altitude appears to be twice as high as it really is? (:
True you need to interpret digits, but reading analog you just look. My Fluke has a bar graph at bottom of the display and is very handy sometimes. Look at aircraft instruments important (spatial) ones are always analog. Who wants a digital clock? not me.
I remember an upright video game, 3 other techs in shop thought roms were bad. 2nd player score was between 1st player and centered high score. Digital meters showed a bang on 12v supply. My analog swung from 12 down to 8v. Confused, i used a scope and saw the short dip to 8v. One leg of brute force power supply filter cap had broken. Currently i see a fluke meter blackout a 4 micro amp signal, and a couple of other digital meters require a little swag to filter out the effects of non 60 hertz signals. But ohms, i still prefer digital.
I get this, so true! The better DMM for automotive use have those functions built into them though, so you can hear or see lights for + or - 12 volts and much more.
We still love our old 8-bit computers and videogames, old cars, LP records, tube radios .. yes, the modern digital multimeter is better in just about every way, but sometimes you just want to enjoy something old that still works.
Analog for telco field use. The needle movement is a really good indicator of resistance capacitance impedance etc. Most of the time you don't need to look for an actual measure. The needle activity tells you a story about the copper you're dealing with. It is a craft thing. My Simpson will always be my first choice
OMG! That Tandy-bought Micronta was my first multimeter model when i was a kid too. Cool to see it again. Mine only lasted couple of years, and died after I discovered that you shouldn’t accidentally leave it on ohms when you test a live 240v socket. Whoops!
Holly sheet. That's the same old Radio shack one I have lol. The back sticker layout is a tad different for Micronta 22-201U then mine lol. Made in Korea lol
Nice to see the 121GW getting used in your videos. Enjoyed the video. I figured you would really drive the point home by showing some of the higher end features a meter like the 121GW can do that the analog meters can not.
I used to use analog meters to find resonant peaks and dips of loudspeaker response by monitoring current drawn from the supply of a small amplifier. Much easier to see than the changing digits. The bar graph was useless for this too (not enough resolution).
Analog meters have a very nice feature I am using very often. Using a white board marker you can annotate something, i.e. idle current or maximum current. You can use different colors for it and in a split second you know what is going on. Take a look of current consumption of a SBC. You can clearly see if it is running on idle or with maximum power. ua-cam.com/video/8GvZaaPiKWA/v-deo.html The same while tweaking something. Quick look and you can judge how much something changed. When you see two numbers like 2.963 and 2.896 it is harder to figure out how much they differ. Of course you can also use fine point pen, like permanent ones. Looks better but it requires alcohol to be erased.
both are the best in their own way, you can't beat the instant beeping and hight input impedance of a digital multimeter, but you can't deny how robust the analog is if you mess things up
Being competent in using an AMM is a valuable skill that any field-tech or engineer should have. They might not be as convenient as a DMM but sometimes AMMs are all you've got to work with.
Yeah, you have a very high resolution with a digital meter, but when doing absolute measurements AND if your meter is not calibrated those digits are meaningless, so you could just better hide them instead. As we know high resolution does not automatically mean high accuracy. Same as writing down all those meaningless digits behind the decimal point of the calculator.
I have the same Micronta multimeter that Dave had as his first meter. My first meter too ! They were sold well into the 1980s by Tandy. Still works, although it's had new probes a few times!
For my first 10 years I used analog meters and I did feel a little 'detached' from circuits when I started switching to digital meters. The feel you get when using an analog meter is not available on digital meters. A bit like getting a car with power steering. Yes digital meters are mostly more accurate but how many people need the 7th digit of their 7 digit meter (or even the 3rd digit)? A great deal of meter work does not need high degrees of accuracy and analog meter 'feedback' is much better and can be an advantage for some uses. Simply focusing on accuracy may be a little misleading. I have to confess that I now only use analog meters when repairing old valve equipment but they are better for some limited purposes.
A basic 5V supply spec is 4.75V to 5.25V. You can't even verify such a basic thing with an analog meter with an accuracy of 2% and barely a 3rd digit. I said they are still useful for niche purposes.
Definitely know what you mean about the feeling you get from an analog meter, they do have a fun factor. Having that needle move makes you feel that much closer to the circuit since it's directly powered by the circuit. Who doesn't love a nice analog display on a power supply or radio, makes you feel like you're in a mad scientist lab! I don't use them myself for everyday measurements but they can have their use on things such as Variacs and panel mounted stuff so that you don't always need to be down another meter.
I used them for that very purpose for many years and could even see if there was excess ripple. I did say they were not as accurate as many digital meters but even a digital meter needs to be used with caution with regards to accuracy. Just because a meter reads 5.25237856 volts does not mean that the voltage is 5.25237856 volts. Digital meters have a 'needle width'. However, as I said in my original comment I rarely use analog meters any more but I would still recommend anyone wanting to get into electronics to get one and use it for a while for the same reason I would also recommend getting an analog scope. Build a ramp generator circuit at 0.5Hz and watch a digital meter compared to an analog one. This is not really what I would describe as a niche purpose so much as a useful visual aid to learning electronics.
All my mcu DC designs work at let say 5.003 or 5.1 using several DMMs the same way as if the needle on my taylor 100a settles at that "5" ;) And we don´t speak tubes Amps here....they don´t even care about whenever it´s 480 or 520Volts on their plates...;) Dave..? what´s that thing with the resolution for, we cried about it in the old days, now that we have it...nobody cares much...;)
TubiCal, I have been an embedded systems designer for 35 years and my company develops high precision instrumentation and RF equipment and as I said I mostly use DMM's and in fact I need 7 digits for our precision designs but my point is that for a huge amount of work an analog meter will work but my main point is that they are a very useful learning tool. Actually many MCU's don't care if they are running at 3.5 or 5V. It is only when you start getting into the lower voltage units that it becomes more important. I have even pointed out in previous video's that when taking accurate measurements there are other things to be taken into account such as thermocouple contact errors etc and as many people do not take this into account you can assume that they are not reaching the full potential of highly accurate DMM's. If I saw a 40v error on tube plates then I would look for the fault. Why not have a go at aligning an FM discriminator using a DMM compared to an analog meter and you will see the point.
Hmm my digital meter has analog readout as well, a big fat bar across the bottom that behaves like a an analog meter for use in peaking circuits, best of both worlds. I haven't had an actual analog meter in years.
Ultimately i think you need to have both types of meters, a DMM thats at 5 1/2 digits or 6 1/2 digits resolution for the quantitative work and an analog meter for troubleshooting circuits and field service. Same with Digital vs Analog o-scopes, there are certain things that each type will do better. Nothing better than an old Tek 2467 for a fast capture or looking at RF. But just the same I love having a digital o-scope with its serial decode and signal analysis functionality
One thing I noticed with the analog meters is that they help illustrate conceptualized and applied electrical theory, so they might still be rather useful for educational purposes.
I can't say I disagree but I still like a meter movement for somethings. Nothing like a piece of tape with an arrow on it on the meter face when testing a number of similar tests. Modern bench DMMs will let you have a 'go/no-go' setup so even this is not that valuable. Caveats: I am not a big fan of the 260. Though it is made not to far from me I think the HP 4xx are better. I think even the Heathkit VTVM is better than the 260. However the 260 is a 'known quantity' in many setups. It is well described and hasn't (really) changed in 60 years or more. As to accuracy, very little of the the time when I was a RF technician was used to measure down to the hundred nano volt level. If a voltage was off it was 0 or way off. Like a scientific calculator where you have 9 digits of accuracy but you only really need N.XY even then N.X is often times good enough. Should I even mention slide rules? (smirk) Ohms: Even my 30 year old Fluke VFD 4 wire 5.5 digit bench DMM should be zeroed out before measuring resistance so that lead resistance is nulled out. Not really something fair to complain about. Should be doing that with any DMM that has a zero function. Side bar: When I worked on the Micor/Syntor/Delta/Master radios they had their own metering units for checking them out using the built-in test plug. You couldn't use a 260 since the Ohms/v for the OEM metering units was on the order of 10k or even 5k so your readings would be totally off.
Peaking circuits in old radios it is easier to make with analogs. Other than that I just go for my DMM's, there so comvenient and accurate. It is great to have both :-)
I used until yesterday a old chap analog multimeter of my dad. Now I moved to a an8008. All looks simpler with a digital meter. (I switched mainly for the diode mode and the ohm meter easier to read)
"traditional modern one" - that's a good one ;-) I certainly hope that they will never stop to at least include an option to disable this autoranging BS!
The only thing that was better for me was when I repaired TVs and other electronics. The low input impedance often helped me find errors because a fault in the circuit usually made it react in a non-normal way when I measured at that point. It was also easier to just fast glance over and see that "something" is measured. A digital could sometimes be hopeless with the numbers jumping around. Sometimes you dont know if you got contact or not because of the high impedance. The fact that it works without batteries is also a plus as mentioned. Especially if you want to have a multimeter in a place you seldom need it.
Last time I used a analog meter was to get diagnostic output codes from ODBII diagnostic port on a car. Keep track of the LONG and SHORT needle movement. Worked back in the 90's when I needed it. :)
Chris Hoppe Yes. It is called a differential voltmeter. There are a couple videos on UA-cam demonstrating its use if you search that term. A very sensitive voltmeter (called a null detector) was used to compare the input voltage to a divided-down voltage reference, usually with a 4-6 digit Kelvin-Varley divider. Once you set the divider so that the meter reads zero, you directly read the voltage off of the dials. Tedious, but could offer theoretically infinite input impedance in some ranges because there is no voltage across the meter once it is nulled out. They have only relatively recently been replaced by 8.5 digit multimeters in NIST-type metrology applications. You can still make a measurement this way with a modern voltage reference, KVD, and null detector, but the combined cost might exceed that of a new car.
I use an analog meter mostly for checking transistors for any leakage between the pins in the reverse mode using x1k and sometimes x10k scale. Something you cannot measure with a digital meter on the ohms range and diode test as the voltage is too low.
It's a matter of preference. I love my analog meters, which are excellent in 'Yep, the anode voltage is right around 170v' in circuits where it doesn't matter if it's 5% lower or higher. Or in high frequency environments that interfere with the digital electronics. I use a digital meter too, in high impedance circuits.
They can also be useful for the education market, i.e. being able to demonstrate the decay factor in a capacitor in front of a classroom etc. So niche not really a big plus, but I still remember that from some university lectures.
Technology advances on the tools of current technology. We advanced from analog to digital by the use of analog meters. Am I wrong? When digital meters and calculators made their debut, the price was astronomical. Only large corporations and schools could afford them. In 1971, we had one digital meter for the entire college. We used slide rules to calculate. I believe we sent men to the moon via analog slide rules and meters. But I am fairly certain Micronta had no input regarding the moon shots. Lastly, I can see my Hickok 209 across the room with ease. Can you see your digital? My Hickok does not require a hanging device to keep it close to my work. I also have a OLED Aligent that I love. Everything has its place.
It sounds like the no energy requirement for volts/amps could be useful till this day. Also, maybe if you were planning for the end of the world you would want one of these instead of a DMM? For me though, just having a digital display is so much easier and quicker than having to read it and pay attention to which scale you're on and where you are supposed to be relative to that scale. Similar to a mechanical watch vs a digital display watch. It's just quicker and easier to read out the numbers as they appear rather than calculating it based on distance traveled.
18:10 - USELESS for 'peaking up' circuits (see previous comment) - the bar-graph BOBBLES too much! Here, the 'non-responsiveness' of the movement is a good thing!
My dad still swears by old school analog meters. He says it's a user interface issue, and claims a digital readout will never be able to replace a needle/gauge type display. I have to admit, in some applications he makes a good point. Seeing the needle bounce in relation to fluctuations is a much better indicator than some digital segmented numbers flippin all around.
What about reading possible defective potentiometers and rheostat's. In the Navy we had to keep old Simpson 260s analog meters on hand just for those test. They would help detect burn spots/worn carbon traces as the contacts would slide over the range of the potentiometer/Rheostats. On a digital meter it just looks like the meter is normally searching for a value.
That exactly the point ... most of the time precision does not matter but have ability to "see" what is going on is priceless ... Also people more easily remember angle of needle of "safe value" than read value and think if it is OK or not ...
Peaking RF circuits in older radio gear and VTVMs for circuits sensitive to loading. Also quite a few digital meters produce RF noise. That's about it ...
another application where an analog would work better is if you have a circuit that moves the analog scale in a specific, unique pattern (like slowly up half scale, a little down, then up all the way, and then slowly back down), that is easy to visually remember. And then it becomes very easy to test another circuit of that kind, because human visual memory is very good.
Each and evry magnetic measuring head is most accurate at 2/3 traveling distanse of the needle. So even with the most accurate measuring head, your instrument is as good as there are many overlaping ranges, so that you can put measured value around these 2/3-rds. Still, for max-ing and tunning something you have to turn with screwdriver or turn-knob it is the best.
2 main advantages of VOMs: Low Z for eliminating Ghost Voltages and AC Bandwidth of 2+MHz, the DMMs barely can go measure above 1k (Chinese), 20k (good brands) 100k (high end).
Constantly varying values are extremely difficult to read on digital meters, though. Take, for instance, a voltage ramping at about 1V/s from 0V to 12V, and back. A digital meter will show numbers going by, one after the next. On an analog meter, you'd likely be able to guess it's a triangle wave, and not a sine. At 21:29, it's just about impossible to see what the average DC value of the signal is on the digital meter. You can see readings flash by, but it's hard to process them that fast to get an idea of the average. On the analog meter, it's much easier. And sometimes Autorange doesn't like the signal, and hops between ranges giving no useful info. You can change ranges manually, but it's more work to figure out. Finally, the lower input impedance means you know there's some power behind a signal. Measuring a largeish cap, as you demonstrate at 22:23, discharges it with an analog meter. Digital meters will typically just show the voltage the cap is charged to, maybe very slowly going down. Digital meters are vastly superior for many things, but there are situations where analog meters are needed.
Many meters have min/max/average settings. So most DMMs can do basically everything the analog can, if you know how to use them. Many can read capacitance directly, not simply the charged voltage. Just like an analog, you have to know how to use them. If you don't know how to use or interpret the analog readings, especially in the edge case situations where the behavior is not straight forward, it is still going to be useless information. An analog can show some things easily, just from the nature of how they work, but are harder to use on the whole even for simple checks. DMMs are easier to use for most things, with a need to be a little savvy for some edge case stuff. Most signals are too high speed for the analog to be fast enough to properly show them on any meaningful way either, but a DMMs setup correctly may be able to provide something useful. But I still have use for an analog from time to time, but it's always edge case. I work aviation, and many of the older analog indicators work off of low voltage to deflect the needles and fault flags, an analog meter can actually move them, making for a quick test of their function... But as the regulations change, and the need to update equipment to meet those new regulations increases... I see fewer pieces of equipment that I can do this test with. Either due to being new digital LCD fanciness, or at least digital internals with analog display... Or still being somewhat older equipment, but a bit newer in design that no longer has the needles driven directly from an outside source, but driven from internal interpretation of an incoming source signal.
A lot of unnecessary whining about zeroing the analog meter, something which is second nature to an experienced tech. And I'm not sure what application one needs more than three significant figures of accuracy. That's all you got from a slide rule, before the advent of calculators, and that worked just fine for generations. Complaing about the fewer digits of accuracy, is sort of like a carpenter complaining that his tape measure is only accurate to 1/64th of an inch. Don't get me wrong, the new technology is better in almost all applications. But some of the shortcomings cited are not that big a deal to a competent technician.
only one advantage about analog multi meter is battery usage they they use single AA battery and it take a long long time to dead (one of them worked for 10 years!). but digital ones they are awful mine always need a new 9v battery and actually I paid on battery more than the meter itself.
A few days ago i tried to measure supply current of Z-scale train model, and cheap DMM (I realise that advanced models can do that better, but I have only 830-clone, without bargraph) gave something reliable only for stalled motor. While running, an old analog meter gave me not precise, but more adequate information about current. So, one of analog meter advantages - working with noisy signals (If you need an easy averaging, NOT the noise and short spikes detection). But you still have to check everything with scope while troubleshooting power supply issues. And there were combined models, with digital display and analog needle, for those who have not decided yet. :) (Sorry for mistakes, english is not my native language)
The 'fluctuation' thing isn't, or isn't in my opinion, what is demonstrated here. It's actually the analogue meters ability to show readings quickly out of the corner of your eye. As in, when you are quickly dabbing circuits to trace voltage paths, you can concentrate on the test points without having to really look at the meter reading, as experience tells you where abouts the needle should be on the scale. On a digital readout you need to pointedly look at the display to see the reading. Although I do concede this is just about the only advantage analogues have, but then generally it's only relevant for service work on old TV's and radio's. Back then the veteran service hack would have all the readings for the typical sets arriving on the bench, stored in his head, so as long as his AVO had the needle in the general vicinity thats all that was needed. Which brings me to the MAJOR point here, Dave, you haven't lived until you've seen and used an AVO 8. Someone send him one please, for a strip and tell vid! The AVO was a system meter with a huge array of accessories, like range extenders (upto 1000 amps I believe!!) for amps, volts and resistance, even a 25KV probe! Overload protection was provided by an inertia cutout, which basically isolated the meter when the needle hit the end stop with more than a preset force! They are wonderful things, I have quite a collection of them with accessories, leather cases etc. Still use one to work on vintage stuff.
I am a HVAC contractor and for measuring starting amperage for a compressor an analog amprobe is superior, digital does not react quick enough. Although some of the newer digital amprobe (clamp meters) do record inrush amperage.
Two words - zero emission's. Analog meters are passive devices (like you said) and do not radiate any EMI whatsoever. As a (one time) physicist I have had to work in environments where DMMs cannot be used. That is not the only place where a DMM is a hard fail. I know you are a DMM fanboy, but there are times when analog meters are just a better (or only) choice. Just a fact.
Not sure why YT's recommendation algorithm just suggested it for me... Maybe because they not so secretly know that I've got a thing for analog meters? I use a DMM as a daily ride but got a few analog meters including two Meratronik V640's, one was the mainstay of my lab since late 2000s, the other one I got recently and repaired. They've got a great reputation among older Polish electronic engineers and seem to have gone quite expensive lately. Analog meters are very fine in my book as long as they've got some sort of amplification that brings the input impedance to a reasonable value, a megohm or more is okay though too low and you can no longer measure some signals reliably. My ZEG WL-2c tube voltmeter has something like 500k input impedance, and the V640 has 1M.
For my hobby I have a 100k, 60k and 10k DMM, but in my boat I still have this 60 year old AMM from my dad which is perfect there: - Never empty battery (biggest advantage for a meter hardly used) - Excellent to see if there's a voltage or if the battery is full or empty - Very short touch to see if there are big amps without blowing a fuse
IF you want to quickly see , yes there is some voltage there very quickly , analoug is better ( look at the clare PAT gear , analoug meter is super quick and nice and easy to see)
What about TRMS ? A Digital Multimeter needs to have special functionality to measure Signals where this matters but is there such a thing as an analog TRMS meter ? or do they always measure the TRMS value because the needle is driven by the strength of the magnetic field wich already resembles an TRMS value ?
EEVblog Yes. To put it in plain language, analog meter can only measure AVERAGE value. Then suppose it is sine wave, convert to Root Mean Square value. If the ac is not sine wave, the reading is all over the places, has practically no meaning.
Low power ohms. It provides resistance measurement on diodes, ic's and transistors without damaging them or creating a loading effect that would alter the resistance reading by providing a lower voltage and current level output from the meter's circuitry. Resistance measurements rely on the meter's internal battery to supply voltage and current through a component to calculate its resistance. That battery voltage and current can damage some components or affect the reading during testing and that's the purpose of having a low power ohms range(s).
Would be very difficult for me to do my job without some old analog meters. Working on two way radios and especially older tube type radios I have to use a analog meter to peak circuits. Extremely hard to peak a circuit with a digital meter. I also need to use several different analog meters. Service manuals for older equipment specified what the input impedance of the meter used to take the measurements on the schematic was. Using a meter with a different impedance meter will read a different voltage because it loads the circuit differently. There will always be a need for analog meters. Also, depending on what you are working on resolution is not that critical. Also, remember we launched men into space with nothing but analog technology. Another thing to consider is voltage measurements at high frequency. How many digital meters can measure AC voltage at frequencies around 1GHz. My old military VTVM can. It has a diode tube in the AC probe. It also has a DC input impedance of 120 Meg Ohms.
When you do a transceiver alignment you need to "peak" tunable coils and transformers by adjusting the ferrite core. It is so much easier to watch a needle swing up and back down and adjust for the peak. A digital meters display is continuously bouncing around.
Some say they need analog to peek circuits but don’t DMM have peek detection, all of mine do even min and max so is this something different they are talking about
When you adjust the coils and transformers the voltage will rise to a peak and then drop off. You need to adjust them for that peak by rotating the adjustment back and forth. Trying to do it with anything digital is almost impossible. I could peak 5 or more adjustments using a old analog meter in the time it would take to try to do one with a digital meter.
I've got many digital meters, but my go to troubleshooting device is the good old Simpson 260. It has been for 35 years and always will be. The analog meter gives at a glance indications of capacitor charge ability, speaker resistance, transients, and transistor/capacitor leakage. I guess if you're an engineer the digital meter would be all you'd need. Techs have to fix things quickly in order to make any money at all. None of this spend days and weeks determining you've got a leaky part rubbish. You have to fix the product yesterday. And who can read the tiny symbols on those meters. My Fluke has the k and ohm symbols so small I have to put magnifiers on and point a flashlight at it to tell the difference.
I remember blowing the needle right off my dad's Simpson 260 series 3. I was always destroying his tools. I don't know why he never killed me. I still have the meter, with the needle in pieces, bouncing around inside. I miss him.
The last part. So sweet. Seriously.
I broke a lot of my father's tools also. Just one of many of the reasons that I never had kids of my own. And yes, he loved his Simpson 260s, used one at his job (R&M electrician) almost until the day he retired.
becuase in some cases to left a victim alive is a greater punishment
i was like that w my granddad good times. But i usually fixed things. I miss him too man.
He is in our heart.
We were forced in the school to use analog multimeters, although the digital at that era existed... the reason (according to teacher) - to understand, how it works.
I hated it.
But, he is right.
The instructor is right.. still using analog for troubleshooting electronics
I work in telecom and carry both a Fluke 177, which gets used the most, and a trusty old Simpson 260. The Fluke DMM is utterly useless when trying to look for cable faults, specifically grounds, on copper cable that has AC power influence on it. The Simpson will show the fault no problem but the Fluke will not due to the interference of the induced AC. Good analog meters still due have a place in this day and age.
I also have to use it to catch quick high voltage pulses when working on an HDSL circuit because the DMM doesn't seem to update quick enough to see them most of the time. Seeing the needle jump to 180VDC is much easier. Accuracy is not part of the equation, visualization is.
YEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
@@suzukiman650 The peak min max function on a DMM would capture that transient.
exactly
do you think to make an informative video?
analog meters are irreplaceable for audio measurement and adjustment, as the needle 'moves less' than a typical digital meter. I use an analog AC millivolt meter when I calibrate tape decks, near impossible to do with a digital meter. Having said that though, for most other measurements, digital is the way to go. But, analog meters do have their preferred uses in certain applications.
I still remember being disappointed when I found out that the "output" function wasn't a voltage source
Me too. Some people think it's good for coupling to a scope, but scopes have AC coupling anyway so it's kinda moot.
I thought I was the only one.
It's called OUTPUT because you can connect it to the anode of an audio valve and measure the output audio signal.
I wonder what is that reset button for!? Schematic didn't show it...
@@gianlucalocri You clearly didn't pay attention
The analog db scale comes in handy when you want to calibrate audio equipment. That and RF alignments are the reason I keep the Simpson 260 around.
The exact reason I have one. It is much easier to peak something when you watch a needle peak and not numbers counting. A digital one that shows you some sort of graph will work but a simple analog multimeter is much easier. Same with RF power. Use whatever meter you want but at the end of the day an analog Bird 43 meter is the standard and what you will be judged with.
One of the best reasons I've heard to use an analog multimeter is when measurements are being made in an extremely cold environment (like outdoors during Canadian winters ;) ). When it's very cold that's when LCD displays start slowing down making it difficult to take measurements and analog displays continue without any noticeable problems. At least that's been my experience.
I live in Houston Texas, so that's never been a problem for me!
I disagree with you
I love analog stuff and collect them. But oh god people come up with all sorts of excuse to say analogs meters are still relevant.
Very useful in 'peaking' some rf stages when you just want to see the peak rather than digits going up and down.
Don't basically all DMMs have a max function?
@@flybackrs but they don’t measure RF voltages worth a darn!
Thats what the bar graph’s for fam
@@flybackrs Yes they do and some better bench DMM even better functions for doing RF stages, but I don't thing most people know.
No one uses analog meters anymore? Be sure to tell Simpson and Triplett and Sanwa and Gossen and all the rest of the manufacturers that still make them.
I disagree. Analog are much better at seeing trends. Plus they don’t need batteries for amps and voltage.
@@ronvaliant9337 i bet my pc notifying me when some value changes is superior over checking a multimeter every 5 secs...
@@jonny393 LOL Yeah and it's real convenient to carry a pc with you everywhere you want to make a measurement like on a boat or an rv.
@@ronvaliant9337 then i would maybe just take an oscilloscope with me instead of an oscilloscope sized Analog Multimeter
@@jonny393 Then you also have to plug it in so don't forget a generator. lol
Main advantage of analog IMO: no batteries required for volts and amps. Handy if you just want to wire the meter(s) in and forget about it.
or if your batteries are always flat lol
I find analog meters useful for checking pots for dead spots. I'll have to try a digital on one again and see if the bargraph can show a deadspot. Thanks for the video Dave.
Testing pots/varistors/switches for dead (open/short) spots can't really be done with a digital. My most common use is testing throttle position sensors on vehicles. Analog meters make that test stupid easy. Digital meters miss at least 15% due to refresh rate. All I need to see is the needle jump reliably at the same place 3 tests in a row and you're never going to find that with a digital. That's pretty much the only thing I use my old analogs for. Or if the batteries are dead in the digitals and I need a voltage measurement now.
Is just a meter of interpretation
I have 6 meters in my workshop but I still use the analog one when testing transistors in audio work. The reason it makes life easier for me just taking a glance at the pointer and see the angle instead of reading the digits in a digital multi meter. Testing resistance with a DMM sometimes will give erratic readings to a pre energized circuit. Even the slightest voltage will disturb the readings and I have to disconnect the particular resistor to get the true reading. Electrolytic capacitors will hold a small voltage even when switched off for a long time.
Let’s just call analog meters a “Trap for old players...”
You have much to learn grasshopper.
How do you think they got to make your 6 1/2 digit Keysight... using the crap analog meters.
TBF, damn near any meter is crap compared to that (expensive, but got what you paid for) meter.
Its a very useful tool to have. I find there is nothing faster when doing troubleshooting. I set the meter where I can have it in my peripheral vision when I'm poking around taking rough measurements. Obviously a DMM will be more accurate and have better resolution, I have lots of Flukes. It's not a matter of which is a better meter, its using the right tool for the job.
Exactly
I still prefer analog over digital call me old fashioned. Most measurements do not have to be that accurate anyway and you can see right away what's going on
they are still used on the american railroad for checking for grounds in the non grounded dc system. I used them when I worked for Norfolk southern railway and we had a digital meter but all track and grounds checks were done with simpson 113. here is the meter we used www.simpsonelectric.com/products/test-equipment/special-test-equipment/ts113-multimeter-for-railroad
It's not because it's better, it's just not cost effective, practical to change the procedures and equipment out and have to retrain and document. You can still buy some really old meters new and their whole market is because procedures and procurement are too hard to change. The above could be a life or death situation, changing everything is risky unless they get something out of it.
The thing that bugs me most about digital meters is the damn things turn them selves off after a few idle minutes. Ok, it may save battery life but it annoys the crap out of me!
Yeah, an analog meter doesnt even need any batteries to measure voltage/current.
@@dickcheney6 Reason, why I still have one around.
My dad had a Simpson 260 and I would use it all the time. I got excited when digital meters came out, but my dad liked the Simpsons because if you have an intermittent circuit, the needle on the Simpson will respond and give you an instant result.
I miss the Simpson 260. That was our standard issue model when I was an electronics technician in the Navy back in the 90s.
Analogue meters still have their place, all the workshops I worked in had one somewhere. I still have my first meter, a Maplin analogue multimeter from 1988 - with transistor tester!! (Sadly Maplin Electronics in the UK has just shut down)
Maplin was a shadow of its former self. I still have a section of the catalog I tore out which showed the pinouts for all the ICs they sold. Why do all technical stores end up going that way?
It is hard to beat a cluster of analog meters to quickly give you a quick idea that the process you are monitoring is working or something is going amuck. They will always have their place. They aren't better nor worse, they are simply different.
Exactly, perfect for e.g. showing that a bunch of temperatures in your process are close to perfect (needle vertical), a bit below/above, a lot below/above, ... All by having even only a swift glance at the panel. Even led vu-meters aren't as good for that.
Of course, these aren't multimeters anymore.
Hey Dave? I just completed performing Electrical measurements at tafe as part of my diesel fitting apprenticeship. This video, if it was shortened would be super useful for the teachers to explain the differences between the tools. If you make a shorter version i would link it to my teachers.
I think one of the huge benefit of starting with an analogue multimeter - I got my first in 1982 - was it gave you a good grip on measurement error early on: as Dave pointed out, these things are less accurate than their digital counterparts, the resolution was quite low and you'd better be sure you were dead in front of the thing to read it correctly.
Well yes analog meters aren't that common now but we just can't forget the workhorse of the thing that basically propelled us into the digital age.
I tend to agree that the old technology and ways should not be completely discarded and forgotten just because they have been displaced. At a minimum it would be useful if they were still documented, new better might come from these older things.
On a side note, I did petition the FCC to keep the Morse code requirement in the highest amateur radio license, but the Morse code requirement has been removed. I guess it is OK, there is still Morse on the air, but, as Dave might say, I wonder if it is only gray hairs using it.
I never said forget them. I said there are still niche uses for them, and that's why you can still buy them.
EEVblog oh I didn't mean you said to forget them. Generally people don't really know now.
Friend of mine found one use for an analog meter, he had an issue where his car battery kept running flat (some years ago now).
He tested with a DMM to see how much current was being drawn when the car was off, saw a lot of bugger all. Connected an analog meter, saw it kicking about once a second, of all things it was the clock.
@Bilde Rothchild he didnt have a pulse meter but had an analog meter on hand
I can find that problem with a DMM as well. I always do it.
Dave, I just love your videos the most. The rhyme or reason being your ability to HIGHLIGHT and speak boldly on the loopholes even on the greatest brands like Fluke or Simpson in that matter. Thanks for highlighting all the points of pros & cons. I was about to loss handsome amount on a particular analog meter. I will drop the idea of purchasing now. Loved it!
Same here
I still use a couple of old AVO MK 8's for old valve radios.
My college still teaches how to use analog meters.... With Simpson 260s. :$
But Dave I still use my analog insulation resistance meter everyday, much easier to find electrical faults over a slow digital type. Especially if the fault is random, you can see the needle fluctuate as the digital types tend to dick around.
You cannot beat an analog multimeter for checking small DC motors. Using the ohm Rx1 scale, you can immediately see if the motor has dead spots (shorts and opens) at various angles by how much the meter jumps around. Shoot, you don't even need to turn the motor shaft by hand to check it too as most analog VOMs will spin the motor. Even will tell you if the bearings are binding. To a less extent, peaking or adjusting for a null is a little better on an analog meter. But yes, for every thing else, you cannot beat modern DVM.
I still use an analog meter (and a VTVM at that) when doing RF alignments. Much easier to tune for a peak or dip using an analog meter, even compared to the bargraph on my Fluke DMMs.
The "output" jack on a VOM was intended to be fed out to an oscilloscope, typically used for looking at ripple on power supply rails.
I assumed they were all DC coupled and without the cap, there is no way to strip the DC from a biased signal.
I agree, even with a Fluke and the graphing indicator it still isn't as easy to do RF alignments, as it is with a VTVM.
RF alignments is the only use now days I have for my VTVM.
And it probably has a true jeweled d'arsonval movement. I once had some heathkit and rca vtvm's...a "voltohmyst" i think i remember as well.
Sure I use DMMs now, but I miss analogs for one reason : when checking an expected voltage, I could register the needle position within a corner of my eye, not having to directly look at the meter, thus knowing whether I've found, say, 12V or not.
With DMMs, even with bar graph - you have to look into the display.
I find DMMs to be measurement instruments, while analogs are representation instruments.
Exactly the same reason why many cockpit instruments, pressure indicators, etc. use an analog style display. I say analog style, because the displays are purely digital.
A lot of the "analog multimeters are better because..." reasons - other than the ones about very niche applications (GHz AC?) for which I'm sure there are niche DMMs available - are similarly not actually about how the multimeter fundamentally functions, but about how the information gets displayed. Swap out the fixed-segment LCDs for a matrix one (given prices, just go full graphical TFT LCD) and now you can display accurate values as well as graphical presentations however you design it - from a classic analog meter look through to a basic and dirty 'oscilloscope' view.
If you try to measure 10V and the meter rapidly jumps between 9.xx and 10.00 V, makes it look like you have almost 20 V if you don't think hard enough. What could be better than if your altitude appears to be twice as high as it really is? (:
True you need to interpret digits, but reading analog you just look. My Fluke has a bar graph at bottom of the display and is very handy sometimes. Look at aircraft instruments important (spatial) ones are always analog. Who wants a digital clock? not me.
I remember an upright video game, 3 other techs in shop thought roms were bad. 2nd player score was between 1st player and centered high score. Digital meters showed a bang on 12v supply. My analog swung from 12 down to 8v. Confused, i used a scope and saw the short dip to 8v. One leg of brute force power supply filter cap had broken.
Currently i see a fluke meter blackout a 4 micro amp signal, and a couple of other digital meters require a little swag to filter out the effects of non 60 hertz signals.
But ohms, i still prefer digital.
I get this, so true! The better DMM for automotive use have those functions built into them though, so you can hear or see lights for + or - 12 volts and much more.
Analog meters do a great job of averaging the reading. On some digitals the display is just random numbers making it difficult to see the average.
We still love our old 8-bit computers and videogames, old cars, LP records, tube radios .. yes, the modern digital multimeter is better in just about every way, but sometimes you just want to enjoy something old that still works.
Analog for telco field use. The needle movement is a really good indicator of resistance capacitance impedance etc. Most of the time you don't need to look for an actual measure. The needle activity tells you a story about the copper you're dealing with. It is a craft thing. My Simpson will always be my first choice
OMG! That Tandy-bought Micronta was my first multimeter model when i was a kid too. Cool to see it again. Mine only lasted couple of years, and died after I discovered that you shouldn’t accidentally leave it on ohms when you test a live 240v socket. Whoops!
"Traditional modern one"... I howled with laughter.
Holly sheet. That's the same old Radio shack one I have lol. The back sticker layout is a tad different for Micronta 22-201U then mine lol. Made in Korea lol
LOL.😀?!
Ц4313 Made in USSR👍
lol👉🤖
Nice to see the 121GW getting used in your videos. Enjoyed the video. I figured you would really drive the point home by showing some of the higher end features a meter like the 121GW can do that the analog meters can not.
I used to use analog meters to find resonant peaks and dips of loudspeaker response by monitoring current drawn from the supply of a small amplifier. Much easier to see than the changing digits. The bar graph was useless for this too (not enough resolution).
They now have pretty decent handheld oscilloscopes.
Analog meters have a very nice feature I am using very often. Using a white board marker you can annotate something, i.e. idle current or maximum current. You can use different colors for it and in a split second you know what is going on.
Take a look of current consumption of a SBC. You can clearly see if it is running on idle or with maximum power.
ua-cam.com/video/8GvZaaPiKWA/v-deo.html
The same while tweaking something. Quick look and you can judge how much something changed. When you see two numbers like 2.963 and 2.896 it is harder to figure out how much they differ.
Of course you can also use fine point pen, like permanent ones. Looks better but it requires alcohol to be erased.
both are the best in their own way, you can't beat the instant beeping and hight input impedance of a digital multimeter, but you can't deny how robust the analog is if you mess things up
A definite improvement in digital multimeters is NO auto-ranging!
That's the RANGE button is for.
Being competent in using an AMM is a valuable skill that any field-tech or engineer should have. They might not be as convenient as a DMM but sometimes AMMs are all you've got to work with.
analog meters keep your brain alive...you need to know what you´re doing....:)
For high frequency and high voltage pulse measuring analog is still better I have a good digital meter but Tesla coil still makes it go insane
I still have my dad's Simpson 260 Series 7P analog meter, in the 7PRT roll top case! Fantastic!
We reached the moon when using analog meters, not since digital meters came 😏😀
Digital everyday, but analog for adjusting rf tuned circuits anyday.
Yeah, you have a very high resolution with a digital meter, but when doing absolute measurements AND if your meter is not calibrated those digits are meaningless, so you could just better hide them instead. As we know high resolution does not automatically mean high accuracy. Same as writing down all those meaningless digits behind the decimal point of the calculator.
I have the same Micronta multimeter that Dave had as his first meter. My first meter too ! They were sold well into the 1980s by Tandy. Still works, although it's had new probes a few times!
For my first 10 years I used analog meters and I did feel a little 'detached' from circuits when I started switching to digital meters. The feel you get when using an analog meter is not available on digital meters. A bit like getting a car with power steering. Yes digital meters are mostly more accurate but how many people need the 7th digit of their 7 digit meter (or even the 3rd digit)? A great deal of meter work does not need high degrees of accuracy and analog meter 'feedback' is much better and can be an advantage for some uses. Simply focusing on accuracy may be a little misleading. I have to confess that I now only use analog meters when repairing old valve equipment but they are better for some limited purposes.
A basic 5V supply spec is 4.75V to 5.25V. You can't even verify such a basic thing with an analog meter with an accuracy of 2% and barely a 3rd digit.
I said they are still useful for niche purposes.
Definitely know what you mean about the feeling you get from an analog meter, they do have a fun factor. Having that needle move makes you feel that much closer to the circuit since it's directly powered by the circuit. Who doesn't love a nice analog display on a power supply or radio, makes you feel like you're in a mad scientist lab! I don't use them myself for everyday measurements but they can have their use on things such as Variacs and panel mounted stuff so that you don't always need to be down another meter.
I used them for that very purpose for many years and could even see if there was excess ripple. I did say they were not as accurate as many digital meters but even a digital meter needs to be used with caution with regards to accuracy. Just because a meter reads 5.25237856 volts does not mean that the voltage is 5.25237856 volts. Digital meters have a 'needle width'. However, as I said in my original comment I rarely use analog meters any more but I would still recommend anyone wanting to get into electronics to get one and use it for a while for the same reason I would also recommend getting an analog scope. Build a ramp generator circuit at 0.5Hz and watch a digital meter compared to an analog one. This is not really what I would describe as a niche purpose so much as a useful visual aid to learning electronics.
All my mcu DC designs work at let say 5.003 or 5.1 using several DMMs the same way as if the needle on my taylor 100a settles at that "5" ;)
And we don´t speak tubes Amps here....they don´t even care about whenever it´s 480 or 520Volts on their plates...;)
Dave..? what´s that thing with the resolution for, we cried about it in the old days, now that we have it...nobody cares much...;)
TubiCal, I have been an embedded systems designer for 35 years and my company develops high precision instrumentation and RF equipment and as I said I mostly use DMM's and in fact I need 7 digits for our precision designs but my point is that for a huge amount of work an analog meter will work but my main point is that they are a very useful learning tool. Actually many MCU's don't care if they are running at 3.5 or 5V. It is only when you start getting into the lower voltage units that it becomes more important. I have even pointed out in previous video's that when taking accurate measurements there are other things to be taken into account such as thermocouple contact errors etc and as many people do not take this into account you can assume that they are not reaching the full potential of highly accurate DMM's. If I saw a 40v error on tube plates then I would look for the fault. Why not have a go at aligning an FM discriminator using a DMM compared to an analog meter and you will see the point.
You can hear the needle tick when you overload it.
The "oh shit" twang!
Also Known as ping "fuckit"
I don't know what you're talking abou....OK I do. One never forgets the sound of "you've bleeped up."
My Philips has a relay protecting the circuit. It does CLACK - oh fuck .
Especially when the boss is looking over your shoulder. All you can do is say, "Oops."
Hmm my digital meter has analog readout as well, a big fat bar across the bottom that behaves like a an analog meter for use in peaking circuits, best of both worlds. I haven't had an actual analog meter in years.
Ultimately i think you need to have both types of meters, a DMM thats at 5 1/2 digits or 6 1/2 digits resolution for the quantitative work and an analog meter for troubleshooting circuits and field service.
Same with Digital vs Analog o-scopes, there are certain things that each type will do better. Nothing better than an old Tek 2467 for a fast capture or looking at RF. But just the same I love having a digital o-scope with its serial decode and signal analysis functionality
One thing I noticed with the analog meters is that they help illustrate conceptualized and applied electrical theory, so they might still be rather useful for educational purposes.
I can't say I disagree but I still like a meter movement for somethings. Nothing like a piece of tape with an arrow on it on the meter face when testing a number of similar tests. Modern bench DMMs will let you have a 'go/no-go' setup so even this is not that valuable.
Caveats:
I am not a big fan of the 260. Though it is made not to far from me I think the HP 4xx are better. I think even the Heathkit VTVM is better than the 260. However the 260 is a 'known quantity' in many setups. It is well described and hasn't (really) changed in 60 years or more.
As to accuracy, very little of the the time when I was a RF technician was used to measure down to the hundred nano volt level. If a voltage was off it was 0 or way off. Like a scientific calculator where you have 9 digits of accuracy but you only really need N.XY even then N.X is often times good enough. Should I even mention slide rules? (smirk)
Ohms: Even my 30 year old Fluke VFD 4 wire 5.5 digit bench DMM should be zeroed out before measuring resistance so that lead resistance is nulled out. Not really something fair to complain about. Should be doing that with any DMM that has a zero function.
Side bar:
When I worked on the Micor/Syntor/Delta/Master radios they had their own metering units for checking them out using the built-in test plug. You couldn't use a 260 since the Ohms/v for the OEM metering units was on the order of 10k or even 5k so your readings would be totally off.
Why analog? Shooting trouble in the field below freezing.
Analogs are MUCH better for adjusting for min or max readings! (peaking up IF stages, etc.
I don’l like that the digital meter jumps everywhere as it autoranges, the analog meter shows meter movement.
Peaking circuits in old radios it is easier to make with analogs. Other than that I just go for my DMM's, there so comvenient and accurate. It is great to have both :-)
I used until yesterday a old chap analog multimeter of my dad. Now I moved to a an8008.
All looks simpler with a digital meter. (I switched mainly for the diode mode and the ohm meter easier to read)
"traditional modern one" - that's a good one ;-)
I certainly hope that they will never stop to at least include an option to disable this autoranging BS!
something is beeping all the time in the background - it makes me all the time look around, if it is beeping here at my place ;-)
Probably the voltage source
My co-worker , here in Ukraine still refuse using digital mmeter, he are 60 y.o. man)))
Watch it buddy! Although I use both. Damned young whippersnapper!
Dave put up a half hour video comparing digital vs analog meters? Oh yeah! Good on ya Dave!
The only thing that was better for me was when I repaired TVs and other electronics. The low input impedance often helped me find errors because a fault in the circuit usually made it react in a non-normal way when I measured at that point. It was also easier to just fast glance over and see that "something" is measured. A digital could sometimes be hopeless with the numbers jumping around. Sometimes you dont know if you got contact or not because of the high impedance.
The fact that it works without batteries is also a plus as mentioned. Especially if you want to have a multimeter in a place you seldom need it.
Last time I used a analog meter was to get diagnostic output codes from ODBII diagnostic port on a car. Keep track of the LONG and SHORT needle movement. Worked back in the 90's when I needed it. :)
Before digital multimeters existed, how did they make high-precision measurements? Is there something like a 7-digit meter in analog form?
Chris Hoppe Yes. It is called a differential voltmeter. There are a couple videos on UA-cam demonstrating its use if you search that term.
A very sensitive voltmeter (called a null detector) was used to compare the input voltage to a divided-down voltage reference, usually with a 4-6 digit Kelvin-Varley divider.
Once you set the divider so that the meter reads zero, you directly read the voltage off of the dials.
Tedious, but could offer theoretically infinite input impedance in some ranges because there is no voltage across the meter once it is nulled out.
They have only relatively recently been replaced by 8.5 digit multimeters in NIST-type metrology applications.
You can still make a measurement this way with a modern voltage reference, KVD, and null detector, but the combined cost might exceed that of a new car.
I use an analog meter mostly for checking transistors for any leakage between the pins in the reverse mode using x1k and sometimes x10k scale. Something you cannot measure with a digital meter on the ohms range and diode test as the voltage is too low.
It's a matter of preference. I love my analog meters, which are excellent in 'Yep, the anode voltage is right around 170v' in circuits where it doesn't matter if it's 5% lower or higher. Or in high frequency environments that interfere with the digital electronics.
I use a digital meter too, in high impedance circuits.
They can also be useful for the education market, i.e. being able to demonstrate the decay factor in a capacitor in front of a classroom etc. So niche not really a big plus, but I still remember that from some university lectures.
Technology advances on the tools of current technology. We advanced from analog to digital by the use of analog meters. Am I wrong?
When digital meters and calculators made their debut, the price was astronomical. Only large corporations and schools could afford them. In 1971, we had one digital meter for the entire college. We used slide rules to calculate. I believe we sent men to the moon via analog slide rules and meters. But I am fairly certain Micronta had no input regarding the moon shots.
Lastly, I can see my
Hickok 209 across the room with ease. Can you see your digital? My Hickok does not require a hanging device to keep it close to my work. I also have a OLED Aligent that I love. Everything has its place.
It sounds like the no energy requirement for volts/amps could be useful till this day. Also, maybe if you were planning for the end of the world you would want one of these instead of a DMM?
For me though, just having a digital display is so much easier and quicker than having to read it and pay attention to which scale you're on and where you are supposed to be relative to that scale. Similar to a mechanical watch vs a digital display watch. It's just quicker and easier to read out the numbers as they appear rather than calculating it based on distance traveled.
18:10 - USELESS for 'peaking up' circuits (see previous comment) - the bar-graph BOBBLES too much!
Here, the 'non-responsiveness' of the movement is a good thing!
My dad still swears by old school analog meters. He says it's a user interface issue, and claims a digital readout will never be able to replace a needle/gauge type display. I have to admit, in some applications he makes a good point. Seeing the needle bounce in relation to fluctuations is a much better indicator than some digital segmented numbers flippin all around.
What about reading possible defective potentiometers and rheostat's. In the Navy we had to keep old Simpson 260s analog meters on hand just for those test. They would help detect burn spots/worn carbon traces as the contacts would slide over the range of the potentiometer/Rheostats. On a digital meter it just looks like the meter is normally searching for a value.
That exactly the point ... most of the time precision does not matter but have ability to "see" what is going on is priceless ... Also people more easily remember angle of needle of "safe value" than read value and think if it is OK or not ...
Peaking RF circuits in older radio gear and VTVMs for circuits sensitive to loading. Also quite a few digital meters produce RF noise. That's about it ...
Yes, peaking is probably one of the few remaining uses.
another application where an analog would work better is if you have a circuit that moves the analog scale in a specific, unique pattern (like slowly up half scale, a little down, then up all the way, and then slowly back down), that is easy to visually remember. And then it becomes very easy to test another circuit of that kind, because human visual memory is very good.
Each and evry magnetic measuring head is most accurate at 2/3 traveling distanse of the needle. So even with the most accurate measuring head, your instrument is as good as there are many overlaping ranges, so that you can put measured value around these 2/3-rds. Still, for max-ing and tunning something you have to turn with screwdriver or turn-knob it is the best.
2 main advantages of VOMs: Low Z for eliminating Ghost Voltages and AC Bandwidth of 2+MHz, the DMMs barely can go measure above 1k (Chinese), 20k (good brands) 100k (high end).
I do like the decibel scale on my analogue meter which I use to check frequency response.
I would certainly get the needle if I didn't have a needle!
Constantly varying values are extremely difficult to read on digital meters, though.
Take, for instance, a voltage ramping at about 1V/s from 0V to 12V, and back. A digital meter will show numbers going by, one after the next. On an analog meter, you'd likely be able to guess it's a triangle wave, and not a sine.
At 21:29, it's just about impossible to see what the average DC value of the signal is on the digital meter. You can see readings flash by, but it's hard to process them that fast to get an idea of the average.
On the analog meter, it's much easier.
And sometimes Autorange doesn't like the signal, and hops between ranges giving no useful info. You can change ranges manually, but it's more work to figure out.
Finally, the lower input impedance means you know there's some power behind a signal.
Measuring a largeish cap, as you demonstrate at 22:23, discharges it with an analog meter. Digital meters will typically just show the voltage the cap is charged to, maybe very slowly going down.
Digital meters are vastly superior for many things, but there are situations where analog meters are needed.
Many meters have min/max/average settings. So most DMMs can do basically everything the analog can, if you know how to use them. Many can read capacitance directly, not simply the charged voltage.
Just like an analog, you have to know how to use them. If you don't know how to use or interpret the analog readings, especially in the edge case situations where the behavior is not straight forward, it is still going to be useless information.
An analog can show some things easily, just from the nature of how they work, but are harder to use on the whole even for simple checks. DMMs are easier to use for most things, with a need to be a little savvy for some edge case stuff.
Most signals are too high speed for the analog to be fast enough to properly show them on any meaningful way either, but a DMMs setup correctly may be able to provide something useful.
But I still have use for an analog from time to time, but it's always edge case. I work aviation, and many of the older analog indicators work off of low voltage to deflect the needles and fault flags, an analog meter can actually move them, making for a quick test of their function... But as the regulations change, and the need to update equipment to meet those new regulations increases... I see fewer pieces of equipment that I can do this test with. Either due to being new digital LCD fanciness, or at least digital internals with analog display... Or still being somewhat older equipment, but a bit newer in design that no longer has the needles driven directly from an outside source, but driven from internal interpretation of an incoming source signal.
I always thought that "VOM" stood for "Volt-Ohm-Milliammeter"
Yes, my brain always shortens that for some reason.
A lot of unnecessary whining about zeroing the analog meter, something which is second nature to an experienced tech.
And I'm not sure what application one needs more than three significant figures of accuracy. That's all you got from a slide rule, before the advent of calculators, and that worked just fine for generations. Complaing about the fewer digits of accuracy, is sort of like a carpenter complaining that his tape measure is only accurate to 1/64th of an inch.
Don't get me wrong, the new technology is better in almost all applications. But some of the shortcomings cited are not that big a deal to a competent technician.
Analog is better for education
only one advantage about analog multi meter is battery usage they they use single AA battery and it take a long long time to dead (one of them worked for 10 years!). but digital ones they are awful mine always need a new 9v battery and actually I paid on battery more than the meter itself.
A few days ago i tried to measure supply current of Z-scale train model, and cheap DMM (I realise that advanced models can do that better, but I have only 830-clone, without bargraph) gave something reliable only for stalled motor. While running, an old analog meter gave me not precise, but more adequate information about current.
So, one of analog meter advantages - working with noisy signals (If you need an easy averaging, NOT the noise and short spikes detection).
But you still have to check everything with scope while troubleshooting power supply issues.
And there were combined models, with digital display and analog needle, for those who have not decided yet. :)
(Sorry for mistakes, english is not my native language)
The 'fluctuation' thing isn't, or isn't in my opinion, what is demonstrated here. It's actually the analogue meters ability to show readings quickly out of the corner of your eye. As in, when you are quickly dabbing circuits to trace voltage paths, you can concentrate on the test points without having to really look at the meter reading, as experience tells you where abouts the needle should be on the scale. On a digital readout you need to pointedly look at the display to see the reading. Although I do concede this is just about the only advantage analogues have, but then generally it's only relevant for service work on old TV's and radio's. Back then the veteran service hack would have all the readings for the typical sets arriving on the bench, stored in his head, so as long as his AVO had the needle in the general vicinity thats all that was needed.
Which brings me to the MAJOR point here, Dave, you haven't lived until you've seen and used an AVO 8. Someone send him one please, for a strip and tell vid! The AVO was a system meter with a huge array of accessories, like range extenders (upto 1000 amps I believe!!) for amps, volts and resistance, even a 25KV probe! Overload protection was provided by an inertia cutout, which basically isolated the meter when the needle hit the end stop with more than a preset force!
They are wonderful things, I have quite a collection of them with accessories, leather cases etc. Still use one to work on vintage stuff.
As a telephone tech working outside in the field I used an analog meter every day, I found it very useful.
I am a HVAC contractor and for measuring starting amperage for a compressor an analog amprobe is superior, digital does not react quick enough. Although some of the newer digital amprobe (clamp meters) do record inrush amperage.
Two words - zero emission's. Analog meters are passive devices (like you said) and do not radiate any EMI whatsoever. As a (one time) physicist I have had to work in environments where DMMs cannot be used. That is not the only place where a DMM is a hard fail. I know you are a DMM fanboy, but there are times when analog meters are just a better (or only) choice. Just a fact.
Not sure why YT's recommendation algorithm just suggested it for me... Maybe because they not so secretly know that I've got a thing for analog meters?
I use a DMM as a daily ride but got a few analog meters including two Meratronik V640's, one was the mainstay of my lab since late 2000s, the other one I got recently and repaired. They've got a great reputation among older Polish electronic engineers and seem to have gone quite expensive lately.
Analog meters are very fine in my book as long as they've got some sort of amplification that brings the input impedance to a reasonable value, a megohm or more is okay though too low and you can no longer measure some signals reliably. My ZEG WL-2c tube voltmeter has something like 500k input impedance, and the V640 has 1M.
For my hobby I have a 100k, 60k and 10k DMM, but in my boat I still have this 60 year old AMM from my dad which is perfect there:
- Never empty battery (biggest advantage for a meter hardly used)
- Excellent to see if there's a voltage or if the battery is full or empty
- Very short touch to see if there are big amps without blowing a fuse
for DC voltage you should read on the black scale (DC V) not red scale (AC V). It still look pretty accurate,
IF you want to quickly see , yes there is some voltage there very quickly , analoug is better ( look at the clare PAT gear , analoug meter is super quick and nice and easy to see)
Had my old boss tell me he could tell a glitch in a throttle position sensor sweep better with his analog meter than with my Picoscope...
What about TRMS ? A Digital Multimeter needs to have special functionality to measure Signals where this matters but is there such a thing as an analog TRMS meter ? or do they always measure the TRMS value because the needle is driven by the strength of the magnetic field wich already resembles an TRMS value ?
Analog meters are only "RMS" when it's a sine wave you are measuring. Other waveforms will not be True RMS.
There is a big difference between "True RMS" and "Averaging responding with an RMS multiplier fudge factor". Analog meters are the latter.
EEVblog Yes. To put it in plain language, analog meter can only measure AVERAGE value. Then suppose it is sine wave, convert to Root Mean Square value. If the ac is not sine wave, the reading is all over the places, has practically no meaning.
Gladius Illuminatus Analog meter measures average value. Not TRMS value. For DC, average value is right. For ac, only sine wave get the right reading.
In fact, there is a special type of analog intrument that is able to measure true RMS voltages and currents: moving iron instruments.
The old analog technology. My brother actually has an analog multimeter from the soviet era, very precise and well calibrated.
Maybe it gets mentioned later on, haven't watched the entire video yet, but what is "L.P. Ohm" / the blue scale?
Low power ohms. It provides resistance measurement on diodes, ic's and transistors without damaging them or creating a loading effect that would alter the resistance reading by providing a lower voltage and current level output from the meter's circuitry. Resistance measurements rely on the meter's internal battery to supply voltage and current through a component to calculate its resistance. That battery voltage and current can damage some components or affect the reading during testing and that's the purpose of having a low power ohms range(s).
Thank you for the explanation.
Would be very difficult for me to do my job without some old analog meters. Working on two way radios and especially older tube type radios I have to use a analog meter to peak circuits. Extremely hard to peak a circuit with a digital meter. I also need to use several different analog meters. Service manuals for older equipment specified what the input impedance of the meter used to take the measurements on the schematic was. Using a meter with a different impedance meter will read a different voltage because it loads the circuit differently. There will always be a need for analog meters. Also, depending on what you are working on resolution is not that critical. Also, remember we launched men into space with nothing but analog technology.
Another thing to consider is voltage measurements at high frequency. How many digital meters can measure AC voltage at frequencies around 1GHz. My old military VTVM can. It has a diode tube in the AC probe. It also has a DC input impedance of 120 Meg Ohms.
When you do a transceiver alignment you need to "peak" tunable coils and transformers by adjusting the ferrite core. It is so much easier to watch a needle swing up and back down and adjust for the peak. A digital meters display is continuously bouncing around.
HP by any chance?
Some say they need analog to peek circuits but don’t DMM have peek detection, all of mine do even min and max so is this something different they are talking about
It's a HP "type". They were actually made by Sentinal, model ME-26 D/U.
When you adjust the coils and transformers the voltage will rise to a peak and then drop off. You need to adjust them for that peak by rotating the adjustment back and forth. Trying to do it with anything digital is almost impossible. I could peak 5 or more adjustments using a old analog meter in the time it would take to try to do one with a digital meter.
I've got many digital meters, but my go to troubleshooting device is the good old Simpson 260. It has been for 35 years and always will be. The analog meter gives at a glance indications of capacitor charge ability, speaker resistance, transients, and transistor/capacitor leakage. I guess if you're an engineer the digital meter would be all you'd need. Techs have to fix things quickly in order to make any money at all. None of this spend days and weeks determining you've got a leaky part rubbish. You have to fix the product yesterday. And who can read the tiny symbols on those meters. My Fluke has the k and ohm symbols so small I have to put magnifiers on and point a flashlight at it to tell the difference.