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Toolmaking Chair Type Edge Finders
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2017
- In this video we take demonstrate and fabricate two styles of old school jig bore edge finders. These unique edge finders make use of a test indicator to establish a zero point on an edge. The units shown in the video are copies of Pratt and Whitney and Moore type edge finders. They will be heat treated, ground and lapped in a future video.
I was an apprentice Tool Maker. I could watch this all day
this is the kind of work i love, i miss being on a surface grinder and sweating half tenths
Tom it is amazing to me how the old ways are often times still some of the easiest and surest ways do do something. Thanks for showing us how it can be done old school.
Neat! I like your little screw shortening vise.
All the best!
Mike
I was really glad to see your trick with the reverse rotation on the end mill. Makes me feel better 'cause I did the same thing last week! I actually stopped when it wasn't cutting and checked to see if the cutter was dull. Changed to another sharper one and ...... Sping!
Still haven't found the rest of the cutter.
I have to go out to the shop and fabricate one of those nifty Ox FTD's (Fastener Truncation Device) as pliers don't work for Scat and bare handing it leads to road rash on the knuckles as often as not if it don't get so hot first that it burns your fingers. Yeah Tom, the simple homemade tools can make your shop life so much easier, so simple that it is one of those "Why did I not think of that years ago?"
Yep, thought the same thing when I saw it, "Why didn't I think of thatt? Its even a flexture, babes love flextures!
John Bare yes: thats a nifty holder...very clever. and it won't blister your fingers.
Great video. No music or time lapse. Thanks
1. Thanks for sharing. 2. Thanks for the bozo and your edited version of it. 3. Thanks for still being a super hero machinist/engineer/teacher!
Been using one for more than 40 years. Great accuracy. Mine was made by Diamond Tool in Oakland. Guaranteed for .0002 accuracy.
Excellent as always Tom. Thank you sir.
Looks like a useful way to get quick centre finding in a production setting.
Hi Tom, what a great way to start a Saturday! Loved the Bozo moment, I have those, but I try to learn from my, & others mistakes. You have a knack for making your own tools, I like that. I do the same thing, just not as refined as yours...... yet! Working on it!!!
Very cool edge finder. They are both new to me. I especially like the vise like tool for grinding down the cap head screws. I am gonna steal that one and make a couple for myself. Thanks for sharing Tom!
Hey that holder for grinding bolts is genius, boy have i misset such a thinghy at work!!!! Please make a video on a build!!!!! Ty for the video, allways a pleasure to watch!
Love that band saw, thanks for the video.
Very cool project!!!
Great video Tom. Simple projects (well they appear simple, I'll find out soon if they really are) give me hope (after browsing the MSD catalog) that you don't need to be rich, or by Chinese tools, to build up your tool collection. Thanks for making your videos. I live in the Bay Area and it's gotten so expensive to live here that less and less machine shops are opening and or staying here. Even those that are still here are having to hustle so fast to make a living that they barely have room for a single apprentice. Being 50 years old and only a hobby machinist, with hardly three machining books at my local library, it's only through the Internet and generous content produce like yourself that I even know how to sharpen a drill bit, much less build anything. Thanks.
Thanks for the nice comment. Cheers. Tom
My shin usually finds the chair edge pretty quick, especially if it's dark.
I generally use the gap between my big and second toe for locating chairs and table legs in the dark. The precision of this method elicits detailed commentary. Cheers. Tom
Try an arresting cable or tie down chain on the flight deck of a carrier when it's blacked out because of a Soviet satellite overhead on an overcast midnight. "Can't see your hand in front of your face" is the literal truth!
+oxtoolco
For really fine precision work the little toe is hard to beat :)
Outstanding !!
Love stuff like this. Many thanks, Tom.
I think the chips on the first rougher you were using were much better, maybe not as good a finish but you had it dialed in perfectly, great straw colour and nice formation. Nice project. Thanks for the video.
I have never broken an end mill yet....cant wait til I get a mill 😊 You sure do nice work Tom 👍🏼
the best ones are the nice solid carbide ones you literally took out the box brand new 20 minutes ago and something in your setup moves. You look at the end mill to find 3 out of 4 flutes are gone...not that that's ever happened to me of course.
LOL...I do have about 20 end mills or so in preparation for me getting a mill to break them in :)
더비 벱다도맘미바다바잗댐 디나비멈벅니기빕거다미머가나마담마답덛답돚마감가더아논맙뎨메마딭답던오는 가낙가내너네닥간바나가
ThePsiclone Its even better when they're special order, and there are no spares, and oh, the jobs due tomorrow...😢 The 280 dollar replacement cost seemed almost trivial, in comparison..
@@ThePsiclone it is also great when you undo a tight ER collet nut and forget to put some tension on the end mill with your finger, it slips out, lands on the vise and the cutting edge corners are not there any more... also hasn't happened to me, khm, a friend told me
I like the idea of making one with carbide knife edges with a tiny radius for doing very tight tiny areas
Thanks! I had a Moore-type edge finder among my precision tools and didn't know what it was.
Don't know how Mr. Bozo has time to visit you, he's working overtime on my projects.
Great video Tom! I have a bunch of the Moore style I made way back but I never saw the Pratt and Whitney style before.
ATB, Robin
Hey Robin. I have never seen a real Moore in the flesh. I was wondering about a relief in the corner between the top and the vertical. Don't need it for grinding but it looks like it should have one to clear any potential burrs on the workpiece. I ended up cutting a little step so there was something there. Best. Tom
I never saw one in real life either. I based my design on pg 192 picture in holes contours and surfaces. From what I can tell there is no relief at all in the corner so it could work on very thin material.
ATB, Robin
Thanks for the video Tom, I have a set of those and I never knew what they were so now I can try it
I sure love what you do Tom
Keep it up
Yes, folks, even superheroes stumble occasionally. Considering all the good he does, it's OK!!
Thanks Tom.
WHAT TAPPING VOODOO WAS THAT! Watching your other video now.... You don't know what you don't know for sure.
looks like the teeth of your band saw are the most effective tools in removing metal in your shop! 😛great video very interesting to watch, thank you
Thanks for sharing Tom! I understand that these are more precise than the cylindrical type. I hope you compare their precision and repeatability when these are finished.
Great idea to do a comparison video with rotational type edge finders. Cheers. Tom
Gee Mr. Wizard... love to see you work and grunt when Mr. Bozo visits your shop... thanks for sharing and like Fred Miller said... nice screw shortening jig... consider it stolen. ;) Interesting video... nice to see the workflow stock -> rough -> etc. very educational and I'm amazed how many little gadgets/tools you collected/made over the years... awesome. Please stay healthy and take care! ;)
It would be nice to hear the advantages, disadvantages, and preferred applications for both of those types, and compare and contrast them with the typical edge finders we use that spin -- of course, that is one big difference already...
If tom breaks end mills what hope is there for the rest of us
Nice job Tom. I have a can full of mills and taps like shorty 😃
Amazing work.
Video of every day life for me.
It sure is good to know that even the best of us forget which way the spindle is running
Nice project. Thanks.
This project looks like a good one for Abom's "new" shaper. Adam's would, of course, end up weighing ten pounds and require a massive furnace for heat-treating.
I would like to see your method of centering the test edge between the gauge surfaces.
That mill power tapping though... wow. Impressive, unless I missed something that would make that easier.
enjoyed Tom!!
Oh yes the old reverse spindle yep done that alot. Deal with tool steels alot so I'm always in low so when I need to go to high I forget to flip the switch the other way.
Nice video -- will have to make one
Tom: I don't care what the other comments say, you did not break the endmill...you made a short endmill with great skill!
Thanks for the video, I really needed my fix..
That dye now comes it an aerosol can. Its great.
First YT video I have watched where I have NO idea what is doing on. But nice machining.
Heh, i had a Moore type edge finder and i never even knew what it was. Always figured it was some kind of unfinished project from grandpa. :))
So you were able to "find edges" WITHOUT ONE? Are you a WIZARD OR SORCERER OR SOMETHING?
Why wasnt the edge in the same place with the 2 edge finders ?
I didnt see you move the vice fixed jaw and yet you got a different reading when you swapped
They were not ground and lapped yet.
Oh it is a joy to look at how you clamp things down so easy!! when I do it :( maybe that is why I never make a video :) Machines do a lot of difference too and how one set them up. If i cut something it looks like a blind man has made a hair cut :)
Never break an endmill again by wrong direction: ducttape on the drill (above cutting surface) stick 'em around the drill, sticky sides together on the other end, leave a tab of about 1 cm, dykem blue on one side of the tab. Depending on which direction the mill goes, it will show a different color. Bonuspoints if it blows chips away from the work.
Be advised, this trick might not work well at speeds where the weight + velocity of the tapetab exceeds the air-resistance (ea; if its spinning so hard that the tab is straight out from center of mill)
another great video..... many thanks :)
Oxtoolco It seems like the Pratt& Whitney type seems to be a nice little "government job", if you have access to a Wire EDM. 😆 Especially as you can heat treat it before you cut it, minimizing warpege issues. I look forward to the grinding and lapping video, especially if you show how your going to measure it. BTW, whats that green goo you use for tapping - something homebrew or is it a commercial product?
Anchor Lube compliments of Stan from Bar Z.
That's why you need a nice shaper machine.
Man I wish I could freehand draw like that. I used to be able actually, I'm just lacking practice since I finished school.
Are the holes(where the screw is clamped) in your screw holder threaded?
Tom, Nice work, my favorite part is your bolt shortening jig, do you have any details on it, I want to make my own :)
Did you ever grind these? What is the calibration process to make sure they are ground perfectly? I'd imagine the only reason to use this over an edge finder is if you need better than .001" locating. Thus, the grinding must be in the .0001" range per half.
If I remember correctly Moore are no longer making these chair type edge finders. But when they were I seem to recall just before they quit making them they were $5k each.
👍.
Another good vid, thanks Tom. Honest question: The two tools in the beginning are off from each other? After finding the edge of the vise with the first, you had to bump the table 3ish thou to have the second tool indicate the fixed edge of the vise is centered under mill spindle again? Regardless, nice little tool to make!
I know this video and comment is three years old but I literally just saw that and had to rewatch that part of the video several times. I had to scroll the comments to see if anyone else saw that and make sure I wasnt crazy.
They were not ground to finish size yet, they were only roughed out on the mill. I'd actually like to see how he ground them to make them accurate.
Wait wait... one edge finder was used and the edge was found then the other was used and should have shown you were on the edge but didn't! Is that because they haven't been ground yet?
Dave M Probably.
new OxCAD1.0 get it at your local office supply ;)
Hi Tom, loved the vid. Who do you like to listen to for classical tunes in the shop?
Tom, I don't think the end mill was running backwards. It sucked the paper in just like it was supposed to. If it was running backwards, it would have pushed the paper towards your hand.
You need to watch again. After the touchoff on the paper, the spindle got stopped. When it starts again, you can see (as it spins from rest) that it is now going the wrong way.
If I had to film what I did (and explain in real time) I would make easily ten times the errors Tom makes...
I would like to see their use in different applications I get the idea clamped in a vise but how else can they be used?
I dont know how or where you would use these. They look neat.
The one I have is used in X and Y. Has a hole on center to two edges that form on inside corner. plus its magnetic. And no, I didn't make it. SPI I think. Did almost allof my other tooling though.
When that first tap let you down and you switched it out; you didn't seem to try and match up the threads when you continued the tapping. Did the mill just do it or were the first few threads "chowdered" as you would say? I grew up in Hawai'i so "mo bettah" is quite familiar to me!
Nice a lot of little machining tip's but I have to admit that Bozo move made me smile for some reason great way to start a day thank you did you make that little screw holder to sand the threads off never seen one before.
Yep. Homemade from rectangular tubing. Cheers. Tom
Very cool little tool for shorting those screws/bolts vs hold in a vise grip, I took several photos of that hope you don't mind if I copy it for myself. Will be very useful.
Informative and entertaining as are all Oxtoolco videos. Is their some benefit to these over the wiggler type? Or is this just an example of how they did it before?
These are mostly old school jig bore edge finders. In some cases they may work better such as a spindle that can't go slow enough (routerish)
Definitely better than a Wiggler. I have the kind that sticks to two sides with a jig ground hole on intersection of the x and y sides. Has small magnets to stick it to the part. Came from SPI IIRC.
I have always wondered how they fid that before the modern type came around
Adam mentions this on SNS and poof in to my recommended...
i see you have rubber bands holding your parallels in. ever though about a parallel seperator?
Nice video Tom. Are there any of this style edge finder that incorporate a hole rather than a slot?
Another really nice video and some great camera shots. Why this method for finding the edges of a vise jaw rather than an edge finder, especially an electronic one?
This is an old school jig boring method of edge finding. Not better, not worse, just another way it can be done. Cheers. Tom
Do you prefer the run in saws to the horizontals?
What are these edge finders for? Please don't say finding edges....
What's the advantage to a vertical belt sander? I'm used to flat or disc, but I've used both and feel safer on the flat sander.
How do you grind the inside faces?
Love the videos! 👍👍
Tom, really love the old lay out stuff !! I have been using a number of those marvel saws for over 40 years, along with others. Now that you have had yours for awhile, how do you like it? Thanks for some more great entertainment. Your friend here in southwest Michigan, Cliff
Hey Cliff. Good to hear from you man! The Marvel is awesome but you already know that. Had to make a new motor starter box for it but other than dirty she ran right out of the gate. All the best. Tom
+oxtoolco
Great saws. Changing blades is like being a one armed paper hanger though.
I have seen many of your flea-market finds used. Interrogatory,do you ever lap the flats on those with right angles before using them.
Hi Joseph. These will get an initial surface grind to establish precision geometry. The last little dimensional finishing is easier to control by lapping. Cheers. Tom
Any particular reason for nibbling back and forth taking 0.01" passes instead of one 0.25" pass?
Mainly to keep Mr Bozo away. If your watching the part walking up to a layout line and not looking at the actual number of material removal I tend to take smaller bites.
10:25 i caught myself blowing on my screen to try and get rid of that little pile of chips...har har har
5:58 Was wondering if the ocd was going to get the better of you or not. ;0) I personally was dying.
Interesting little pieces. How do you use them on round stock though? :-)
Does guacamole make good thread tap cutting lube?
Tom, What's the angled face on the Prait Whitney type used for? The one piece design looks good for a wire EDM. Heat treat a bar than wire cut them out. I may make some.
Not sure. The upper leg seems kind of long to me. I was trying to faithfully copy the P/W unit. WEDM is the way to go on these. Cheers. Tom
hell just extrude it, cut it, and grind it. I'd be interested to see if someone could get that process going.
In my model the angled face aids in moving the center of gravity just inside the corner so the part does not tend to tip. Did you ever post the size of this? I just went with proportions. Might need to scale at the Wedm.
can i use some of you ideas to use in my final project
Hidden surface removal is hard :-)
Hey keep those cubes for a machinist dice project... :-)
Tom is there a design for a corner chair edge finder to eliminate locating zero on two axis?
Rivers Company there is a corner design and it uses a round hole. Thatlazymachinist shows its use in his video making 123 blocks.
AtelierDBurgoyne thanks I'll check that out.
Rivers Company I misspoke, sorry! Here is the link to the video and the corner tool is shown at the end of the video. ua-cam.com/video/potUx4AdxzQ/v-deo.html
AtelierDBurgoyne that's what I imagined. The magnets are a nice touch.
Hi Tom,
I see you made the edge finders out of A2. Are you aware of DC-53? It cost the same as A2 but has wear better than D2 and the strength of 01 at the right draw back. Many of my homemade tools are of A2 and I love the steel but now I use a lot more DC-53. I look at DC-53 as D2 on steroids. On some of our videos I still use A2 because I have a lot of it laying around.
Steve
Hi Steve. I also have a lot of A2 around the shop. Had good luck with it over the years. I just keep whittling away at one of the big blocks I have. The Marvel saw makes short work out of dicing it up. Thanks for stopping by. Cheers. Tom
I love DC-53 as well, great steel.
Solid Rock Machine Shop Inc. I follow your YT channel too where DC-53 was mentioned. My regular supplier does not sell it. Where do you source yours? Do they ship small quantities? Thanks! Daniel
Alro sells it. That is where I get mine.
Hi Daniel,
I get it from Alro too.
Steve
A GOOD TOOLMAKER KNOWS TO MILL TOWARDS THE FIXED BACK JAW ON THE VISE NOT TOWARDS THE "FLOATING" VISE JAW,,,
Cant figure out how it works.
Hi Tom
Was that Mozart trying to get through at 6:33 or an internet artifact?
Indeed. Its the only thing I can get past the UA-cam music bots.
I have to say I cringe every time you run a tap in the mill. As always great lessons.
"woops"
Hey Lip, when would use this tool?
To find the center of that hole in your head. Good to hear from you Dennis.
Oh boy.. Tom using actual liquid Sharpie?!
That was single malt sharpie.......