Do I Need To Upgrade My Pipework For A Heat Pump Install? | Consumer Advice
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- Опубліковано 21 тра 2024
- Looking at Heat Pump installs? You may need to upgrade the pipes in your property! In this video, we talk you through why that might be and give you the tools you need to decide if you need to or not.
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00:00 Intro
00:50 The Myth
01:19 Flow Rate
01:43 Power Requirements
02:07 System DT
03:15 Flow Rate Calculation
03:49 Is Your Pipework Okay?
05:06 The Calculation
07:52 Example System
08:50 Hydraulic Separation
11:22 Radiator Pipework
11:56 Insulation
12:36 Bonus Info
14:13 Outro - Наука та технологія
Hi Adam, love the videos, but I think that doubling the diameter of a pipe would increase the volume by 4 not 8 as the length of the pipe would remain constant.
Yes this was a mistake
@@HeatGeek Appreciate that update. I was just about to make same comment.
Adam. Im so pleased you are talking 'Metric'.
Having been in Commercial HVAC for 51 years, we have been doing that since 1971, here.
Good job !
Actually myself and surely a ton of other international viewers around the world are grateful for that too.
Love what you guys are doing, not treating everyone as idiots and providing good well explained information for everyone. Keep up the good work.
Beautifully, simple, clear and concise. Bravo, sir.
This is a really helpful video which takes a lot of the mystery out of what can be a daunting topic. I’m in the industry and have shared it with colleagues & customers, it’s essential knowledge....thank you, more please (buffers would be good) 👍
Awesome information as ever, thank you. Off to check my pipework diameter. The point about increasing insulation instead of increasing pipe diameter is a superb point and very valid in the current energy pricing situation. Save on heating costs in the long run.
Hey guys Aussie watching that has never needed to heat a house until moving to the Italian alps and buying a solid stone 1903 home. I’d love to see some before and after videos of heat system installs.
Thanks heaps for making heating interesting. Prefer your channel to anything on Netflix
Great video as always keep up the good work.
Be good to get an idea of what would be the perfect or close to perfect set up if you were looking to install on a project where you are starting from scratch and not confined to any restrictions with old pipework and Rads.
Great video. Used your info to do some checks that the installers putting an ASHP in for me this coming week are not taking shortcuts.
Are you able to do some sort of flow chart showing the order/process from the quote/design to installation, think it’d be helpful for the engineers transferring showing how each stage follows on etc if that makes sense?
Great video, thanks!
Excellent as always Adam. Definitely interested in the volumiser versus buffer tank explanation.
Most of the reason why is in the "why not to use a low loss header" video ua-cam.com/video/mNcRx45DQ8M/v-deo.html
Expertly presented. At long last I am getting to understand why my HeatPump installation has not been running efficiently. Customised commissioning of all HeatPump installations, in particular, is critical for the efficient running of the HeatPump installation. They are more sensitive to temperature (DT) running tolerance than most other boiler systems. Thank you.
Thank-you
Just found your channel and like it a lot. I'm about to renovate our heating system, and want to ugrade the ancient microbore piping and renew the radiators. What's the issue with 'plastic' pipe in heating systems ? There's very modern MLCP stuff like the Rehau RauTitan (not promoted much in the UK) which doesn't suffer the bore/flow restrictions at joints/fittings like some of the original 'pure plastic' systems I shan't name. Yes, you have to size the pipe correctly for heat delivery , just check the inner diameter !
Interesting video. If the flow and return connections on the heat pump are 22mm would you still recommend upsizing to 28mm for those primary runs to the hot water tank and the buffer? And when heating the hot water the connections to the coil are also 22mm.
Heat pump is 12.5kW.
Thanks for your advice.
John
Great video. Thanks. Looking forward to the ‘don’t use plastic’ video. Another reason why pipe sizes are often ok is because boilers are designed to heat building during waking hours (say 18 hours out of 24) whereas a heat pump should be designed to work continuously in very cold weather which increases comparative heating capacity from 22mm. I’m also interested in use of variable speed pumps where flow rate can be nudged above 0.9m/s on those few very cold days each year. When combined with a raised dt to 7C this increases max heat capacity even more. What would you say was the max acceptable flow rate for say no more than average of 48 hours per year, 1.4m/s? Which equates to about 2% of the time the heating is on for the year?
The max limit is 1.5m/s.. for this example I use 0.9 to be safe, that's at design conditions though (-3 outside) the rest of the year it will be way less if you have a dt pump
Did you ever get around to doing the plastic pipe video?
I'm looking at swapping to a ASHP in my new build as the original combi boiler is due to be replaced as the HW system wasn't designed properly and I likely need a HW tank. While changing the main runs to copper while the work is being carried out wouldn't be too disruptive, the drops buried in the walls down to the radiators are all in 10mm micro-bore. Looking at the cheat sheet though my biggest room would only require around 600W which looks doable?
Am I going to have a lossy/inefficient system if I stick with the plastic pipe?
great video again , so retrofit install survey/quote/heat loss calculation is actually a long and extremely important job , it will define if your install work or not? yes a video on plastic pipe would be great . also a very stupid question, on a heat pump radiator system , is the system under pressure?thanks again
Great video. The description still says coming soon for the article and cheat sheet. Any idea where I can find it?
Uhmmm, I am pretty sure that doubling the pipe diameter only gives you a factor of 4 in volume - unless you also double the length of your pipe! 🙂 Great video, though - you guys are really helping me prepare my plumbing for a future heat pump installation.
I'm very interested in system volumeisers 👍
You just rescued me with this video. I want a system, but style of recent videos cuffuddled my brain. e.g. Diakin expert. To give my statement context/goal posts, I am 72 with a degree in engineering i.e. OK with the maths, but swamped by the data flow! Because I am OCD, wanted to do number crunching myself AND compare answers with someone I trust before signing the cheque. Here lays the rub, Company A is modern, forward thinking but rushed off their feet with work and unlikely to have paid for your course. Company B is loyal but “back of a fag packet, we have always done it this way”. Thank you.
Thank goodness I watched this video although I will have to watch it a few more times to take it in but the reason I am saying thank goodness is that I have 22mm and 15mm hep2o in my bungalows loft using hep2o tee's and reducers and elbows, and some elbows at the end of the 15mm copper pipes in the rooms that I assume I would have to change to pro press fittings if I fit an ashp
Not necessarily, it could work fine bud depends on your system load.. if its sat 5kw of below it might be just fine
From my research, the internal area of hep2o 15mm is pretty much half way between 10mm and 15mm copper. So as long as you don't need more than about 1kw from 15mm hep2o you should be ok... But that does assume the pipe runs in it are short (the resistance is proportional to length) and you avoid too many elbows in favour of swept bends where possible.
@@TheBadoctopus ignoring the bastia harboring o2 ingress at fittings, difficulty with balancing on larger systems and rodent issues.. yes
The system volumiser vid would be useful, thanks :)
Most of the reason why is in the "why not to use a low loss header" video ua-cam.com/video/mNcRx45DQ8M/v-deo.html
Question for your next episode as requested - what are you thoughts (pros/ cons) of the Octopus Heat Pump installations (equipment used and approach)?
Thanks for the awesome info! I have a question, what do you mean by plastic pipes? You mean multi layer? And if so, why isn't this an option for heat pumps?
The calculation on diameter vs "volume" is wrong! The length is fixed, so the comparison is of cross-sectional area only which is obviously a square relationship rather than cubed. So doubling the diameter means the area/volume (for a fixed length of pipe) increases by a factor of 4 not 8! :)
These videos are brilliant!
Do you guys run any courses for engineers to learn more?
Hi there
Yes our course is at courses.heatgeek.com
A great video , so you may nkt have to upgrade unfortunately to cut costs many homes built in recession times have very small pipes 10-15 even 8mm in at least part of the system to save costs, which is far smaller than any numbers quoted in this video .
Hi, this is a general question about system design. I installed gas central heating and came up with a pipework design that didn't require any balancing of the emitters/radiators. It achieved this by having the flow and return run parallel to each other with the emitters bridging the gap. What's different about that you ask? Well as I can't draw a diagram here, just imagine folding your arms on your chest, then separate your arms slightly leaving a 2" gap.... that's the shape of my pipework, with emitters bridging the gap between the arms. The length of pipe that water has to travel is IDENTICAL FOR EVERY EMITTER, hence practically no balancing was required. I used 22mm for the biceps part of each "arm" and 15mm for the "forearm", so each emitter was either fed via 22 and returned via 15, or fed via 15mm and returned via 22. This meant flow resistance and total pipe length were near identical for all emitters. This is different to the standard approach, which has both arms held directly out in front, so that the emitters closer to the body (boiler) are fed through much shorter paths than the emitters out at the end of the arms. I think I used slightly more pipe than the standard approach, but it really wasn't significant. Are there any reasons why my design isn't the standard, or at least why it isn't offered as a practical alternative to the standard?
Type ‘reverse return system’ in google. Cool you figured it out for yourself though!!
Video appears to suggest Buffers are not generally required, however, has been suggested that most heat pumps require a buffer tank for defrost and to allow different temperatures in bedrooms compared to living rooms?
Yes I'm interested. Has anyone written some FLOSS software (spreadsheet or other) for designing heat-pump systems? Overall demand, emitters, pressure drops, ground loop sizing, UFH spacing, pump power loss, etc. None of this is rocket science but I don't particularly want to do it all from scratch. Someone must have done this by now?
Another topic that I don't fully understand is the condensate / discharge from a heat pump. Is it just water? Where can that be send to? To a drain / soak away? And how you build a base or make provision for all that requirement. Does the discharge come out of a pipe underneath the unit? Is there a tray? I've also seen manufacturers (like NIBE) recommend 300mm clearance underneath (for snow), yet installers just plonk them heat pump on a concrete block using standard feet (which aren't raised 300mm). Placement of the unit is all very confusing. And this is aside from MCS / building regs about boundaries and decibel dB loss calcs. Definitely a topic ripe for a consumer focused explanation methinks.
It literally just comes out a tube (there’s a tray under the coils) - it’s not a massive volume of water so generally there’s not a need to plumb it to a storm water system.
The size of pipework has to be calculated. The starting point is the heat requirement of the system, then the operating conditions of the system ( usually determined by the temperature drop across the system which in most cases mean the required operating characteristics of the device providing the heating medium) Heat pumps operate at different system temperature drops than LTHW systems fed by a condensing gas boiler. OK, now you’ve established the system flow rate there are factors affecting the sizing of the pipework. High velocity in pipes is both noisy and energy hungry as it produces high specific pressure drops making the overall system pressure drop higher and consequently higher power requirement for the pump. So the size of pipework must reflect the types of pump that are economic for the application. Commercial projects require the same calculation procedure but may be less constrained by the above factors although it’s always sensible to optimise the capital and running costs of a system . Some older heating systems have larger pipework anyway ( ours has 35 mm common flow and return and the heating circuits start off with 28mm pipework). But the whole point if this is the need to calculate what you need rather than be guided by “rules of thumb” . Most heat pump systems that have been found to be inadequate are usually the result of poor design and installation as a result of not doing proper calculations in the first place.
Good morning Adam.
Another excellent and thought provoking presentation....
It is a shame that publications like Gas Installer/Engineer/HVP don't even appear to scratch much below the surface on the subjects you discuss, let alone the industry as a whole ?
Two questions if I may :-
What building heat loss software do you recommend using.
This maybe outside your remit, but can you recommend any trustworthy publications/authorities that advise/educate the insulation of solid wall construction without raising the possibility of condensation/damp problems.
Thank you as always.
Thanks Neil, we recommend and use 'heat engineer software'
Thank you.
One further point - you quote "Plastic pipe does not belong in heating systems". I cannot say I disagree but quite a bold statement !
Especially as a lot of new house builders seem to throw plastic pipe into their builds like unsupported cables...?
@@gibbodive140 yep. It's needs to change. As does the unfohnded love affair with inhibitor.
Pete Ward new book "The warm dry home". Well worth the £25.
He is on YT, lots of these case studies also in book, with colour photos and full explanations, references etc. Aimed at older properties, solid walls etc.
Very informative thanks.. Would be interested in a video "How heat pumps work at lower power? ". . If say the home calculates as : -3C heat losses are 5Kw & at 6C only 3Kw . Is the SCOP better with an 8Kw or 5Kw Heat Pump? Running a bigger one at low power , is that quieter & have a longer life & better COP, than a small one at full power ?
Smaller always better, less cycling and keeps lower temps easier.. as small as pos!!
How would you integrate a 600l thermal store into a heat pump setup - as a giant buffer tank to take advantage of off peak electricity? Assuming a separate hot water tank.
Good video, well explained but you didn't mention the hot water cylinder. Is the heat load of the cylinder added to the primary pipe size? If not why not?
No, because heat pumps are hot water priority.. they heat hot water OR heating, 1 at a time..
I am enjoying your videos and would like to move towards having a heat pump installed. However I am still concerned that I will have to suffer a lot of disruption to achieve a satisfactory solution. I have a gas boiler, 22 and 10mm copper pipes and have been conducting the Octopus Challenge to reduce gas consumption. As part of this I reduced my boiler temperature to 65c but this just means that in cold weather it becomes very difficult to achieve the 22c my wife needs to feel comfortable in our lounge. I have been doing all the other things like re-sealing windows, closing curtains, blocking up the chimney and applying draught excluders to doors. So, I suspect some serious change will be required in order to use a low temperature heat source.
Same, I've got 15mm pipe for the majority of my central heating. It'd be a right arse to change to 22mm+ pipework.
We mainly just use the central heating in the morning in the winter and use the log burner in the evening in the lounge to keep it warm enough (for my other half).
I have plastic piping around the rads, does this mean it has to come out? Copper from boiler to pump thought.
Hi Adam, late to your channel. Could you do something specific to brands eg i have Mitsubishi ecodan and Mitsubishi recommend constant flow temp for under floor systems. I have tried weather compensation and it was terrible (cop 1.9) but i can squeeze 3.0 out at 7C ambient. I don't understand why that was the case and would love your take on it.
A question. At 4:53 how did you get the doubling of a pipe's diameter increases its volume x8? Cross sectional area is =Pi x r^2 so doubling the diameter gives you 4 times the cross sectional area and then the volume is this area multiplied by the length of the pipe. A 15mm pipe has an area of 353.429mm^2 and (for ease) a 30mm pipe has an area of 1413.717mm^2 which is 4 x 353.429mm^2.
Yes I misspoke
Nice one Adam. With your chart - where it says about how many Kw's a pipe size can carry Vs the DT and 0.9mps. Does the length of the pipework not have a factor too? Or is it a case that, the energy would just take longer to get to where it needs to be in a longer pipe run?
Yes, as per the video though is this is a rough cheat sheet and NOT a replacement for proper calcs or sizing
Can I use my gas usage to estimate the heating requirements for the house? Maybe the number of hours the heating was on for multiplied by it's power capacity?
I would be interested in your views on volumiser over buffers!
Most of the reason why is in the "why not to use a low loss header" video
ua-cam.com/video/mNcRx45DQ8M/v-deo.html
how do you prevent short cycling when not using a buffer? turn-down ratio is high enough to not need one?
What are your thoughts on mini splits? The americans love them. Not as a main heat source but as a cheap interim solution to reduce load on main gas boiler.
They're fine. I don't find a2a as comfortable for use in a home but it's alot more straightforward and good cop
@@HeatGeek The Danish use them extensively, and they are available for quite low heating loads, whereas Air-to-Water heatpumps stop being available below about 4kW.
Great vid, however you finished with you can’t have plastic pipe work, you should have really mentioned this at the start. As was quite interested in heat pumps, but like most houses built in the last 10 years, the whole place is piped in plastic.
Hi Adam, great videos, thank you. If the ASHP is remotely located (approx 20m) what type of pipe would you run to the tank?
Preinsulated mlc
You would probably go for a split unit to reduce the losses so they would be small fridge pipes
I connected my arotherm 105 monoblock with 32mm mlc. Heatloss calc at 8.9kw (design temp -7) so i’m a bit oversized on the heatpump. I’m debating wether i should fit in a volumizer/buffer in the return line to prevent cycling. What do you think?
I minimized use of couplings due to mlc so it cant be all bad i suppose. Have a run of 32mm mlc to the technical room of 6 meters from the arotherm to the belowfloors ufh manifold (hoh 10cm dst) and another 7 towards towards the first floor ufh manifold (in 26mm). Judging by the cheat sheet i should be fine.
Which heat meter are you guys using btw?
Just catching up ... at 4:58, doubling diameter doesn't mean increasing volume by 8!
Doubling ALL dimensions (including length) would mean increasing volume by 8. Assuming the same length of pipe, doubling diameter means increasing volume of water therein by 4 (i.e. increase of cross section).
Very useful, thank you. I'm currently improving my big old Victorian house and was wondering if the pipework was needing upgraded for a future heat pump. I'm still far from convinced that a heat pump will be a viable option, but can't see any emission free alternatives! What is the ideal flow temp for a heat pump please?
The ideal flow temperature is the lowest you can get it..
Heat pump spec sheets show the COP you can expect at several different flow temperatures. You can see the possible improvement you can get from lower flow temperatures and work out if that benefit is worth it for you, over the additional fitting expenses.
Hi Adam, interesting. Could you give an indication of the % efficiency reduction of a heat pump working with a temperature difference of 6 degrees versus 5 degrees? I live in the Netherlands, no heat geeks here.
PS. Can you give the links to the cheat sheets you mentioned here - I couldn't see them on the screen.
Could I ask, I have a relatively easy option to increase the pipe bore for the upstairs radiators but not the downstairs ones. Is that something I should go for? Does the fact that they’re upstairs come into the equation? i.e. they need more hydraulic head
Would love to understand manifold distribution to individual radiators where pipe work to manifold is 28mm copper but radiators are 12mm plastic
Will this work for a heat pump?
So how about 8kw feeding 15mm old pipework running in and out of 22mm pipes?but mostly 15mm?
So after watching all the info out there about heat pumps, I decided to go ahead. The good news is I would get a full installation for free paid by the UK tax payer because I am a pension and my gas boiler is LPG. The new installtion included 20 solar panels, whole house insulation and the heat pump with associated equipment, all provided and fitted free, not a penny for me to pay, yet would cost some 17k had I to pay for it.
So why did I not go ahead?
Microbore.
My house is a detached 4 bed and all rooms have radiators connected by 8mm microbore.
The assessment people did a survey and told me all my pipework would need upgrading to minimum 15mm which in turn means lifting every floor in every room to lay new pipework. This work would not be covered by the UK Government grants and I would be looking at around 10k to have them do all the work and make good afterwards.
I pointed out that some installers are saying microbore isn't an issue and they told me its all rubbish and these people don't know what they are talking about, further going into flow rates etc. as you have done.
So as a layman I am in a situation where I have no idea who to believe or where to turn.
A heat pump installation would cost me some 10K plus 17K = 27k to install, and at current annual savings even on LPG would take 67 years to pay for itself.
Its important when making these videos not to build peoples hopes becuase few will benefit from this technology without massive investiment.
Looks like its LPG for me.
Hey. Any home will work with micro bore. It’s just wether you need a buffer or not. As per the video. Your surveyors didn’t know what they were doing unfortunately. Please send them this video. No hopes, just basic engineering
Need more info on why not to use plastic pipe
The diagram at 8:16 shows a heatpump directly suppling a network of four radiators.
Can a heatpump really be set up this way so aimply without any hot water tank ?
I've only ever seen heatpump installations with huge watertanks and quite complex pipework too. So do people only have these giant water tanks for hot water supply and they don't play any part in supplying house heating ?
Can one run a simpler (no tank) heatpump system like this JUST to supply radiators for heating and have something else for the hot water supply needs ?
It’s a great video but I would really like to see a plastic pipe video. Someone needs to be super clear on the issue of “can I use a heat pump if I have plastic pipe to my rads and/or plastic pipe work anywhere else in my house”. In my mind this should be one of the main qualifying questions on your “can I have a heat pump” video as well.
Plastic pipe = crap.. Will do an in depth soon
@@HeatGeek thanks would be much appreciated. As an owner of a well insulated house that’s only 12 years old but which is rammed full of cheap plastic pipe I’m pretty sure a heat pump would require ripping and replacing all the pipe work. I know heat pumps are your thing but I would love to also see a video on other carbon free alternatives. What about electric boilers for example, given no one solution will fit everyone I think in my case it could be the right option but how can I tell? Reputable electric boiler fitters with heat geek accreditation might be a good thing.
@@cblu9092 plastic pipe could work.. just not as good...
Simple
What would happen to the fridge side of things if your increasing Dt's
What I mean is super heat and sub cooling 4 degrees ether side of the evp & con on a water dt@5
The wider you have your dt the more distortion and hotter(harder) your hp has yo work.
The cross sectional area of a pipe is irrelevant. The Hagen-Poiseuille Equation shows that with laminar flow, resistance to flow decreases with the 4th power of the radius. Double the radius, flow increases 16 times if pressure drop along pipe stays constant.
i have the option of installing a buffer in parallel or in series (on the return) on a heatpump. what is best? With the buffer in parallel it does not need an additional pump
Your videos are awesome nd very informative. Unfortunately your heat geek guarantee does not really work as I attempted to use this service inumerous times and just did not get one of your installers to contact me. I am having a Samsung 8kw installed next week and the question regarding pipework came up, the assessors were very good, my main pipe is 22 and the secondary pipe is 10mm, its a 3 bedroom house. Do you have a way to calculate the ideal size for a volumizer to help overcome the 10mm pipework? Is there an ideal size for a volumizer? Thank you
Sorry about that.. The guarantee is not that we can find you an installer though. They are rare and especially hard to find good ones. It's the level of quality of install and they k ow things like system volume and control theory etc. Sorry no simple rule of thumb for volumes
Hello, I have and plan to install your Ariston Nimbus compact heat pump with 110s net 16.7 kW.
I have a house on two floors, 70m2+100m2, roof insulation 20cm, walls 15cm, floor 10cm and triple windows.
Can the Nimbus compact do heating, cooling and hot water independently without a buffer and an additional pump?
Thank you.
Would assume this is the internal area of the pipe not the OD of the pipe?
Thanks for your reply have you got an update of how electricity your vaillant arotherm plus has consumed since the start how many days is it and what size the ashp is
I meant to say how much electricity
@@patregal hi. How much power is relative and no help to anyone. What is relevant is its scop, the scop is 3.. so if your property needs 6000kwh pa you'll use 2000kwh electricity, if you have a gas boiler you'll use 6600 of gas.
double the diameter increases the cross section area by 4.
Just found heat pumps that use carbon dioxide as refrigerant at minus 20 deg C cop is 2 and hot side temp at 80 deg C contacted the enginneer they connect directly into the existing pipe work at temp minus 5 cop is 3.15. Heat pumps definitly looking like the future. I am in Aussie land and normal air heat pumps are just fine.
Did he say what unit? Pipe work may still have to change here due to condensing boiler f/r dt or 20 instead of 5
@@HeatGeek
If I want to future proof, should I put 22mm instead of 15mm, I am completely re doing all pipe in pex as I have 100mtr free
Thanks for the info, good video... But you said no to plastic? 😱
I'm just about to replace old non barrier plastic and badly routed CH pipes in my bungalow loft with hep2o... Should I not?
I get that the internal diameter is less and those inserts cause momentary points of restriction, but was planning to upgrade a few runs to 22 (up from 15 based on length and energy needed to rads). All the drops to rooms are 15mm copper.
If I'm planning a heat pump in 2-3y should I not use plastic? Why? Thanks!
In other words, assuming the calculations for flow rates and heat carrying capacities are all fine in plastic, why not use it?
Lots of reasons. Wothblow temperature systems plastic harbours more bacteria which can lead to bad corrosion problems and pH issues. Fittings don't have barrier so allow o2 ingress, rodents love eating it, because the fitting restricts balancing is more difficult..
I would instead use mlc if you absolutely have to..
Why not use copper though???
Hello@@HeatGeek, thanks for the reply.
Mainly because I can do the Hep job myself, and save a bunch of money on labour for a pretty simple bit of planning and labour, whilst fixing several issues with the current system. I'm in the middle of many renovations and cash flow is a major issue.
I guess I could learn to solder copper. Or just accept those risks you mention for plastic. Leaning towards the latter tbh 😅
Will look at mlc option though, cheers.
@@TheBadoctopus just replaced my old 15mm uninsulated copper mess of Ch pipes with 22mm plastic barrier pipe, I've also insulated it. There is a great difference in the heat output to the new type 22 rads I've put in. I do take on board the comments regarding rodents and flow restrictions with inserts and also potential balancing issues- but for me, the difference in comfort is great and even before this warm spell I've changed my heat curve to -3°/39°. The house is v comfortable.
@@TheBadoctopus cheaper isn't as good genrally. .
No need to learn to solder! Hire a press fit gun and press it!
I was feeling good about this until you said the pipes shouldnt be plastic! Pre ASHP install my old 15mm copper was replaced with 22 & 15mm plastic. My DT is typically 5-7 so hopefully getting away with it 😵💫
They replaced copper pipe with plastic??? Why!!????
@@HeatGeek so are you saying that underfloor heating is a no-no with heat pumps? I thought that was the ideal combination?
Or is it the case that the calculations for underfloor heating are different (and more friendly towards plastic pipe)?
@@PeteTaylor don't confuse plastic with mlc. Even woth plastic underfloor heating you don't have the fittings...
Yeah I was exactly the same my bungalow just been redone with plastic pipe be interested to see the video on that. I get the point about throttling the connection at joins but doesn't plastic pipe have a smoother bore?thus more efficiency inside pipe ? I am speculating here
@@roscopeco2000 any lower pipe resistance is totally imperceptible compared to the resistance at fittings. As I say.. lots of other reasons.. plastic is a bacteria haven
I've Just been looking at a brand new House that has an Air source heat pump but I noticed all the rads were fed by 10mm plastic pipe. It was a relatively large 4 bed house so would I be wrong in suspecting that the installers didn't know what they were doing?
If you look at the general bill quality of developer built houses, what chance have they got of installing a quality heat pump installation. Developers are the perfect example of the race to the bottom.
Diameter x 2 = Volume x 4, for the same length of pipe, not 8.
Because bore area of pipework 2cm diameter ( radius 1cm) = PI x r^2=PI x 1^2 = PI
Bore are of pipe 4cm diameter (radius 2cm) = PI x 2^2 = 4xPI
Anyone able to help me on this issue. If you have underfloor heating, where does the issue about pipe sizing end up? I suppose I may be looking at this arse-ways, but if the idea is to have pipes a particular size and the underfloor loop is narrower, does this cause problems?
Why does pipe diameter matter so much for an ASHP when most new build systems have mainly UFH, which has 16mm pipe work for most of the system?
Is there a video on using volumizers?
No
Is the delta T the temp drop across the radiator or is it the difference between the room temp and the average radiator temp? I'm sure I've seen it being used as both. If the heat pump runs at a temp drop across the radiator of 5 degrees what is flow temperature for most efficient running?
In this video DT refers to the temperature difference between flow and return
Sadly a very large proportion of heating systems being currently fitted to new builds by the large developers use microbore plastic piping.. With the primary flow and return going up to an airing cupboard on the first floor and then separate 10mm F&R dropping down behind the drywall to the various radiators on the ground floor. This is the case in my 9 year old house, on top of that, not one of these new builds have heat pumps their all gas installations, so much for saving the planet!?
I'm struggling to get my 8.5 kw eco dan above a scop of 2.6
For 6kw heat pomp,what pipe size i need?
If you double the diameter whilst keeping the flow rate the same, then you *quadruple* your volume-per-minute - not octuple it.
How long until the articles are out please? Would be easier than pausing the video :)
This article should be next week
How can I figure out my house circuit if pipework hidden
4.58 2x diameter is not 8x the volume of water. is arround 6.5x de volume for the same headloss. the simplified formula is (internal diameter(biger pipe))/((internal diameter(smaler pipe))^2.7
example (25mm/12.5mm)^2.7 = 2^2.7 =6.498 about 6.5. this formula can have a max 5% error because of the different materials.
How does the plumbing work when the old combi and most pipes is at the front and I have a concrete floor and heat pump will be at the back? Dig up floor? (I’m in a terraced house).
That sounds like a difficult job for a heat pump. They don't suit all budgets. Most homes had a cylinder at some point
@@HeatGeek my 1970 house was built originally with a “Warm air” heating system powered by gas. It used to have a cold water tank on a reinforced shelf above the stairs. Not sure how the hot water system worked! No sign of a cylinder.😕
@@Group51 a difficult system for a heat pump. Thankfully not the norm. Every case different
@@HeatGeek Cripes. I think I’m going to have to hope Octopus gives people like me access to a much cheaper off peak to charge a heat battery of some sort. We don’t all have cars!
What about if you have no radiators and just underfloor heating with 16mm pipe?
As long as the supplies to the manifolds were sized appropriately, which you can use this guide for.. your ok
O no I just did a new build in 22mm poly all the way to the rads and it’s having a heat pump installed by another company.
This has me feeling really bad. 🤦🏻♂️
That’s the problem with so many new houses, like mine, from 2015… that they used 20mm copper pipe around boiler, water tank, etc…, but then the radiators pipe is flexible plastic 10mm pipe which is great/easier for them to install but not great for retrofitting…, and I guess a nightmare to change as will have to dig out holes in the whole house, lift floors, etc… 😩😩😩, so it may make my desire to install HP imposible. And so frustrating that all these thousands of new houses that you see around the country are being built have these pipes, well hidden within the walls, and with gas boilers…, and then thr Government want us to pay to change them to HP!! Bonkers!! 😡😡
The diameter of that pipework for a new build is absolutely not a problem. It would.be for older.. its the facts they used cheap crap plastic
@@HeatGeek that’s the problem, plastic pipes.. any easy and efficient option if have plastic pipes? Without ripping house apart?
@Eric Rouvière no easy option.. but builders were warned.. however there is things you can do.. I.e. fill woth demon water. Tbh in most cases it will probably be fine
@@HeatGeek what do you mean.. “were warned”? Did Government said to stop using plastic pipes but they continued (and still are) or just by heat experts? Crazy the Government is not stopping this…
Demon water? Sounds scary 😝.
I’m having Damon B to come and do heat loss survey in Feb, and I’ve just emailed him to let him know, so he comes aware (he probably is already) so see what he thinks… not as hopeful now 😞
@Eric Rouvière as in physics told us about basic physics.. demin not demon haha demin means demineralised. Demon means Damon who your having round your house you poor sod
there is 1 caveat not considerd (properly): pumping losses. having bigger bores means your pump(s) have to work less hard wich means less pressure differential wich also means less cavitation in pumps and pipe noises and a big power saving. all in all its a win-win-win to have your pipes oversized. the cost difference is not much of a factor when doing a reno where you already are spending the cost of a nice car to upgrade the heating system.
So, I don't really believe that non-smart TRVs actually work to "regulate the temperature in a room". I get that the idea is that the closer the room gets to the target temperature, the more constricted the TRV gets and thus slows the flow to that radiator, forcing the water (and therefore heat energy) to go round the rest of the circuit.
I never managed to get them to keep the rooms in my house at "the right temperature" and have replaced them all with Smart TRVs, which seem to keep the comfort level correct.
I can't believe a bit of wax inside a chunk of plastic will have enough force to move a pin in a valve up and down. The problems could stem from my escher-esque mishmash of pipes (including a ~2.8kW 1500x600 type 22 rad on 10mm plastic pipe), but whenever I try to talk to a plumber about this they tend to ghost me.
Apart from that - I work from home, so I have a heated downstairs and an upstairs office that I work from. How is a thermostat in my living room supposed to keep the upstairs rooms heated to the correct temperature? It'll turn off the thermostat when the downstairs is hot enough, not when my office is hot enough - and the downstairs gets nice solar gain from the south facing window, which the north-facing upstairs rooms don't.
WAT DO CAPTAIN HEAT???
You are correct that one thermostat is not going to be able to keep all of your house at a comfortable temperature. Only having one thermostat is an engineering compromise. Every room should have its own thermostat, and the heat demand for the room should be aggregated and sent to the the heatsource and/or the system pump. Wax motor TRVs do work (they are incredibly powerful for their size) but they are quite imprecise - the hysterisis around the setpoint is usually a couple of degrees and your body can sense this as being slight above where you think set point is, and slightly below.
Is it possible to de-zone a property.
Yes.. just set the same temps and times everywhere
I don’t understand how doubling the diameter gives 8 x the flow rate? Is it not 4 x the flow rate?
maybe you make a confusion between pressure and flow rate?
@@yelimsssantiago5328 what do you mean?
i was misunderstanding you first :-) indeed, from flow rate formula, it seems that doubling diameter gives 4x :-)
My pipework is plastic and micro bore mostly 10mm. I'm thinking I'm going to have to change all my pipework to upgrade to a heat pump.
Possibly.. but you could use the money that you would spend on that for insulation.. that way the existing pipework will work and you'll gave lower running costs
My property has cavity wall insulation and 270mm loft insulation new dg windows and doors. The weak spot is solid floors which is expensive to insulate.
@@johnedwards6648 you'll be fine on a hp unless it's 400m2
When the government wants 70000000 heat pumps installed yesterday , case by case doesn’t work unfortunately
What to do if one’s house is just 10 years old fitted with 10 mm plastic microbore pipes that feed all radiators from the first floor? That’s how so many modern houses are built by the majority of big developers.
I use a gas boiler. If the government wants me to switch to a heat pump, they better be prepared to pay for the equipment and conversation. I won't buy something I do not want.