Synthetic oil is ALL WRONG
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2023
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Edited by: @ww2and1
#hoi4 #heartsofiron4 #speedup - Ігри
Honestly you are definitely wrong on this one Dave. Synthetic refineries take a long time to build, they are honestly only useful for rubber because they do not produce enough oil to be really useful. Even the air force uses more than 10k oil per day by 1944
i agree 100% and planes and trucks eat up rubber like pasta
I agree
Yeah if you gonna double cost of Synthetic rafineries its gonna be like supply hubs : (
MF's telling me to build supply hubs in advance when I'm halfway in the soviet Union.
take the oppertunity cost, how many mills can you get for one refinery, and don't forget to include the war eco bonus which would be like 3 or 4. 4 mills for how much fuel and 5 rubber...
Let us not forget the German Focus Tree that gives +2 rubber per refinery level... :D
Rubber trees
@@FeedbackIRL We have plenty of those in the Untied States
The funny thing is that even with the buff, trading for rubber is more cost efficient.
The US and USSR made synthetic rubber using oil, making it doublely odd that they produce oil and rubber at the same time.
Different types of oil. In a refinery they can use the byproducts to create synthetic rubber while still producing fuel. Oil has vast differences and it’s byproducts can be used for all sorts of things.
I remember watching some documentary about that, and that is how we got silly putty.
The USSR also made rubber from a dandelion found in the 1930's in Kazakhstan. During the war they even shared the seeds with the US which also grew the plant during the war. The Germans also got their hands on some seeds and tried growing it as well. It wasn't as cost effective as synthetic rubber. However certain materials needed natural rubber as synthetic rubber was yet to be fully refined. After the war there was no longer a need as tree rubber was available once again.
it doesn't it makes rubber and FUEL, it uses oil and takes the place of factories
Oil add water, increase oil only in America
Oil fields in Texas oil fields in Russia oil fields in Alaska
As long as there doesn’t end up being a synthetic refinery designer…. I’m all for paradox making it better balanced
imagine having to balance what chemicals you were mixing and go down a research tree & use research slots to unlock new chemicals
Bullet template designer when??
The only problem I feel is that the Axis (at least in my games) are already rather weak, and rubber/oil is one of the biggest factors for this. The Allies are just mega overpowered when it comes to resources, and making it even harder for the Axis would require simplistic buffs like "deal 10% more damage" for the AI to be able to keep up with even harsher resource restructions. But I am also quite new so maybe I dont see the full picture
well they are nerfing the axis resources in the next dlc to make it more realistic
i think you are right and the nerf isnt necessary anyway
@@holdenjanzen7029 i dont mind at all if they were to change the actual warfare more towards "we need to invade the soviets because we need the oil" rather than "because we need the victory points", its just that as it stands, in my games, the axis are always struggling, which makes playing the allies rather dull most of the time unless you pump up the ai a lot, but even then i usually put italy on max and even then they almost always break in 1943, so i literally cannot make them stronger and they still fail. so it could be cool if they changed the reasons for warfare, and allowed attrition from lack of resources to play a larger role, but then, from my experience, they would also need to buff the axis quite a lot so that there is a challenge, at all, to playing the allies, at least without adding all of the extra points for the axis
edit: sorry that was long. my point is that an outright "make it more difficult to get a hold of the most difficult resources period" would only make my own games even more allied-favored than they already are
AI Japan often invades DEI and Malaya easily because AI Allies don't garrison them. But then around 1942-43 they go closed economy cutting off all exports. So annoying for the axis.
Germany IRL wasn't in a comfortable situation either. One not so often recalled benefit of Barbarossa was saving Germany from repaying all debt in incurred to Soviet Union for importing oil and other raw material (this debt was settled to be paid in goods like Germany did to Brazil and services). Had Hitler stayed peaceful till 1944, he would have to deal with some severe economic crisis.
If you build a civilian factory you can get 8 units of any resource you want "for free".
For a synthetic refinery (with all the technologies) you get 5 rubber and 172.8 fuel which is worth 3.6 units of oil. So you get 8.6 units of (specific) resources.
You pay 134,26% (14500 IC cost) of a civilian factory (10800 IC cost) for a synthetic refinery for 107,5 % of the amount of resources (8.6). And you can't use that thing for anything else like steel or more fuel. And it's actually much much worse because you have to research loads of technologies to make those 8.6 happen. In most circumstances you get way less.
As the game currently stands, without any changes, refineries aren't worth it unless you're embargoed.
yes, the math checks out, In my Opinion, if you need BOTH oil and rubber.. and you 4 research slots by 1938, it is worth it.
@@MrUrze
It is worth it if you need those resources and you can't get them otherwise.
However, if you can trade civs that is always cheaper even with all the techs and even if you need the exact ratio of fuel and rubber the refineries provide (which you probably don't because people often need more fuel than rubber, but these things produce more rubber than fuel).
They are not economical in peacetime as they were in real life.
Germany needs them but building them as a nation that can trade with the US is not optimal.
@@lars9925 I'm on my first ever playthru and I chose South Africa. I feel like I need my factories due to the limited size of my slots available to make things like mils, civs, etc and the wait to construct things is already tedious enough. I clicked the research synthetic refinery button on my last play session hoping it'd make up for my potential fuel needs, as well as give me a little rubber to boot. If more slots open up and/or I start getting more territory I think it'd make sense to trade for oil primarily, but as of now, I just don't see it. If you have thoughts to the contrary I'd love to hear them. In general of course, as you don't have my play file, but off the top of my head I have 17 civs, 6 mils, 2 docks and 5 or 6 open spots. I have to use 5 of my civs for the consumer goods.
Civs and refineries block the same amount of slots, so building civs seems to be the right.
To get more slots, you have to research industry technologies either concentrated or dispersed, concentrated is probably better for SA.
@@lars9925 I saw that I could get 20% more factories in a region, but it didn't seem to open any slots. Maybe it did, or maybe there's something further down the line I haven't hit yet. Either way it's good to know the opportunity is there. Thanks!
The lack of coal as a resource is a major weakness of the game in my opinion. There were still coal fired ships operating during the war, and coal was still a very important resource
Why dont we have steel mills
@mryellow6918 good question! The hoi4 economy is too simple overall
most of major countries has coal anyway, only france short of lack of it
it doesn't add anything to the game in my opinion
@@user-fi2fk2ei7o yep same whit steel mills the game presumes if the region have iron production it have coal or can get its hand on coal and have mills there so no problem.
that said I could see nation having buffs/debuff depending on how far its industriation is (not talking about pure civ factories as thoes are something else) but more like do the nation have a sufficient advance mining and metal working industry or are we still medival pessent making iron ore by hand in blacksmith like its the 1200 or something.
@@mryellow6918 The Road to 56 mod, adds both Steel and Aluminum Mills. So it might be worth a pickup if you want those. RT56 though is a full proper game mod with it's own Focus Trees and such, so you're in for the penny and the pound with it.
World ablaze mod doing a good job regarding this issue:
They added back the coal and ores resources and the refineries using the most coal to power themselves in order to produce rubber and oil.
dont forget germany focus which gives plus 2 rubber per refinerie
14500 construction cost...
Stock piles for all the resources would fix many of the problems.
oh no then the game would be more similar to hoi3!!!!
I think the max number of refineries in a state should be tech locked and have tech cause an increase in production cost for the additional refineries. It's generally easier to upgrade an old refineries to be more effective than build a modern one. The limit per state can reflect the energy cost, as this was under a controlled economy, energy would be prioritized in the state to the refineries.
You didn't even cover how as Germany you can with one simple focus get early game +2 rubber for every single synthetic factory which on top of this turns getting rubber even easier for germany
Could you share the name of the focus?
@@dioniscaraus6124 focus is called Synthetic Rubber if you don't know how to find it you need to go Four year plan followed by autarky and then after finishing coal liquidation there it is.
in Black Ice mode you have coal as a tradable resource used in power plants which are fueling every refinery, factory and dockyard. coal + iron are used in steel refineries. bauxite used in aluminium rafineries... you always have to keep one eye on power grid and the other on trade market. this makes planning much more interesting. do some videos about bice. you will never go back to vanilla, i assure you
Never understood why people are so scared about BlackICE...
Speaking of oil and rubber, when can you present an episode charting the OIL EFFICIENT meta tanks? That is: What tank designs give you the most bang for the BARREL of oil? I need a best breakthrough tank and a best tank-killing-tank. I suspect that’s why my Wehrmacht tanks with maxed out quality (radio, armor type, gun, add-ons) are cleaning up on the allies and Soviets despite being fewer in number, because I’m not suffering as much of a strain on my oil supplies.
The one thing I never see Dave do is put fuel drums on his tanks. That's why he's always whinging about supply, his armored divs only have the fuel from his logistics support, so they immediately run out of fuel and can't get overruns.
12kph mediums with two fuel drums in mechanized divisions = normandy to moscow in like 2 months.
@@samoldfield5220 I’m thinking about the 3rd Reich’s fundamental oil shortage - fuel drums or not. Huge numbers of tanks for invading the Soviet Union isn’t going to benefit with fuel drums attached if your national fuel supply is empty, while a few REALLY GOOD tanks that can do the breakthroughs without running the country out of gas for ALL the armed forces will keep you advancing and the Luftwaffe still flying.
Yes, i miss stockpiling and declaring war just as you max and winning before you ran out.
Add coal as a resource and require it for factories and refineries to operate. with a slider to prioritise where it goes.
No downside? Cost to build, building slot.
The fuel gained is negligible.
You're better off building a civ and trading rubber with it.
Maybe you could add a switch to what you'd like to produce and a few options that the more reccources or fuel you produce the more consumergoods and less factory output you get
good idea
Truly I think adding money into this game would be a game changer. And micro mini productions per state for certain production items would help simplicity and historical thinkers
i would make it as follows: for every refinery one civ would have to be used, or one civ for every two refs
Fuel Rationing would also make for a good economic law
Maybe it could just require more building slots? first one costs 1 slot, second one 2 slots, third one costs 3? That could balance it and represent the added "cost", no?
It's a good idea that it is tied with civs, right now we make all the civs for nothing. It's best that all the refineries give you a small flat production of rubber but you can spend PP in decision to increase the production, you can only change the production level once every 2 months, also you get progressively worse production efficiency if you chose dumping lots of civs into making rubber for too long, so in this way refineries are more dynamic investments.
Instead of stockpiling with resources. It could work easily as stocking working days worth of X amount of X resource. Much simpler and will be balanced around converting civilian factory cost to military production cost. If you put much civilian worktime during peace, you could theoretically stockpile enough resource to keep going by sacking your early civilian eco build up. This is super useful for factions that enter war in 39, 40 and is the battleground (like poland historical).
even if HOI IV isn't an econ game, you could still potentially add some of the resource management, imo by simply having
1-resources stockpile
an easy one really, your country stockpiles the already present resources to be used later either as trade chips (still against civs) or building materials for war equipment
it adds that element of management, which was (quite) important during the war, and also offers some possibiliy for countries that don't have as easy an access to certain resources by being able to bank them when you don't need them (yet), which would also raise the value of importing resources than you currently use, as right now it's basically traded IC that goes in the drain for the importer country, you could also add decisions that mirror real life events, for example collecting pots and pans that add +1k steel to the national stockpile, but you take a hit to stability, support or your pp (or a combination of)
2-resources transformation
more complicated and something that might not be to the taste of everyone as it adds another layer of complexity
it basically adds a new industry building (the mill), new resources in the form of ores (iron, coal, bauxite....) and changes the way refineries work
basically all steel, aluminimum and petrol on the map is changed to their raw resources variant (idk how it'd do for chromium and tungsten) and the refinery is unlocked from the start, you build mills to turn bauxite and iron+coal into aluminimum and steel and refineries turn oil into fuel, then with the synthetic fuel tech, you unlock the capability to use refineries to turn coal into fuel and/or coal
a research line in the industry branch could be added to augment the efficiency of mills and refineries (or could be added to existing techs) and of course the cost of consumer goods, factory construction, etc
I agree that synthetic oil is a bit borked, not sure adding sliders/other resources would help the flow of a war game
I think RT56 probably handles it the best, I think splitting synth oil into 2 parts and making those buildings maybe 33% cheaper or so would be the best middle ground solution
You could make oil production work like military factories representing the difference in drilling and refining
considering that coal is an essential resource for making steel perhaps synthetic refineries could cost steel to operate or decrease the efficiency of extracting steel
I agree, when playing Germany I've never felt the urgency of grabbing Baku, cuz I'm quite stocked with refineries. Also rubber was such a big deal it sparked great turmoil in Latin America. So I agree, nerf refineries, add more rubber to South America and make it so you need to overcome the obstacle of getting it, which is historically accurate.
Trade Laws seem to achieve part of what you are looking for, except for the fact they apply to all resources.
Civilian factories is technically money in this game
synthetic ref is already weak in because you better off just build more civ and trade rss than build refinary
I would like PDX to implement a Prisoners of War (POW) mechanic into Hoi4. When you crush a pocket of enemy divisions they all just die, you don't capture any enemy soldiers in battle. It would be cool if you could capture enemy soldiers like how you capture enemy equipment if you use Maintenance companies. With captured enemy soldiers you can (also depending on Ideology) either send them to work camps (this could boost factory and dockyard output, construction speed) at the cost of some of your own manpower to guard them. Sort of like a completely separate occupation law tab. You could also use them in your own army, either disperse them evenly or just recruit them in separate divisions. However this would have downsides, since you're forcing them to fight four you. This could be represented in reduced division org, attack, defense and recovery rate. As for Synthetic Refineries I think they are fine the way they are.
No way are PDX touching POWs as a game mechanic. The outraged arguments would never end.
add purging to hoi4 where i purge an area to core it
They have discussed it already that they won't be implementing anything to do with prisoners of war at any point within the game as it is too difficult of a topic.
If you don't include the brutality that many nations inflicted on POWs then you are downplaying it, and if you were to include it it would be too controversial as you'd be able to roleplay Germany and Japan a little bit too much.
I think they would rather leave that kind of thing for mod teams and don't want to touch it at all themselves.
The easiest way would simply be adding them to the population/labor pool.
@2.5% limited conscription, an infantry battalion _(1000 manpower)_ would only yield 25 men.
Not worth it.
@@Bigzthegreatthey will never implement war crimes for cores
Maybe they could be converted from civilian factories, so you build a civ, then you conver it to a refinery. That will make the total construction cost of a refinery higher, and also grow with each refinery you build.
I think that Oil refs and oil storages should be it’s own building kind, like infrastructure
This. Certainly fuel storage, because as they stand they are so terrible it's basically just a research tax.
what if the rubber you produced was linked to your trade policy and was suceptible to how many embargos you have
You overstate the cost of making fuel from Coal. '
Rubber was refined from Rubber Dandelion but it was less efficient.
You skipped the focus which gives +2 rubber bonus for rafineries
In my opinion of meta vs gameplay meta will always adapt to what's presented to it. That's the point to a meta. I enjoy adding in new elements and everything will get adjusted to better fit. I do feel synthetics need a rework. The cost to produce the factors is very high. Any nation that's not a major it's a significate investment to build at anytime. The amount of oil the factors gives you is very low and also makes no sense as it uses oil to make rubber. Splitting the two makes sense and adding a cost would be interesting.
So, turning on and off synthetic refineries at the expense of extra consumer goods? Because consumer goods are just civ factories not available for construction that sounds like it would be equivalent to trading with yourself. Trade is also paid with civs.
4:00 that’s a very misleading way to state the difference there. The 4-5 thousand IC difference between those two buildings is a 40% increase in IC. It takes you a lot longer to build a synthetic refinery, and during that time, you aren’t building more civilian or military factories. It’s a huge opportunity cost loss for most people. Additionally, to get the 10k oil, you need to make 3 of them in each state plus research all the synthetic oil tech which is going to take ages.
yeah, civ factor/consumer goods cost is a good, simple way of doing it imo.
germany needs a new focus tree
I feel as if the Synthetic Refinery is already heavily inefficient as it is though? Like... sure you can solve your rubber issues, but if you build SRs for oil, you're really desperate for oil. It's prolly better to just go conquer lands with Oil. As Germany you would go down the puppet Romania and get their oil for example. SRs are fine imo, yes it could use a bit more flavour, but in terms of efficiency, it does hit the mark. Maxing out all your German states with 3 refineries like you did is never gonna happen in a normal game and you know that too. You might build 5-10 ish for rubber for airplanes and the oil is really just a bonus. But what do I know, I am not an expert.
Just add another resource called coal. (Which you could also use at ships) and make a huge cost for converting coal to oil.
With how much IC and research-days you need to _invest_ in maxing GER like you did at 1:20, it is such a _sunk cost_ that it actually _is_ balanced.
You'd be much better off investing all of that into factories and trade, if you could (aka be SOV, ENG, or USA)
Like you said at 8:00, it is sooo much better to play as GER and just skip refineries altogether but instead rush the Baku oil fields in Russia.
If you wanted to implement your idea, it would be possible, but _only if_ they _drastically_ reduce the IC and research costs.
Lore of Synthetic oil is ALL WRONG momentum 100
I think you should HAVE to convert a civilian factory to a synthetic factory, at the same cost it currently is to build a synthetic
Nah mate i never seen the game where a germany had built refinneries in all states and didnt have suffered a minus civil or military factory count. Besides you only get to the second tech tier of resources before war with the soviet union. Where the oil and rubber isnt enough.
No, overcomplicating things only leads to them becoming niche (I'm looking at you, navy). As it stands, the technology already takes quite a lot to become useful for nations who need it, stifling that will only weaken nations that already struggle with those resources early on. Maybe if a new resource was added to "maintain" the refineries (like coal, as others have suggested) would make it more realistic without giving the finger to nations that need and don't have easy day 0 access to rubber/oil
Oil quality would be amazing to implement also. Synthetic oil was never as effective as other oil
I think entire HoI 4 economy should be a stockpile, not just equipment for divisions and fuel. I want to have an option to syphone rapidly some resources and then scorched earth. I want to pile up rubber for latter production of better fighters, I want to pile up steel to use for latter tanks that need it more. I want to pile up that tungsten I don’t use now but will i 2-3 years in huge ammount or buy something now that later it is likely to be taken away from the current owner
Good point I hadn't thought about.
I think PDX should just increase the IC cost of refineries to 2x civ factory.
The increase in oil per stage doesn't give too much and with the limited number of slots and need to build other equipment it is a part of the balanced German strategy.
I'm not keen on either of your two suggestions as can't see any reason to penalise this resource by increasing the cost as you build nor change the economic model for the game so radically for just one item.
Why increase the cost? Early game, you get like 2 rubber per refinery. How much rubber can you buy with a single civ? 8. You already pay 150% of a civ and get less rubber.
What about adding coal as a resource? Could be implemented like oil. Could be stocked, and it would tick down based on your economy law (maby even trade law), based on your population (bigger population uses more coal), trains, rafineries. You could set priority similar to the equipment (training/garisons/special operations...). If you had not enough coal for population you would lose stability, if you had not enough coal for trains you would get supply debuff, and rafineries would lose efficiency. Maby even convoys could use coal. Or ships could be designed with oil/coal engines. Maby even trains. There could be extra tech for the cheaper trains and you could chose cheaper but coal using or more expensive that use fuel. (By this mechanic USA could be nerfed, by needing to dedicate more productin towards using fuel insted of coal) Germany's and Japans rafineries could be nerfed and there would be reason to fight for nowadays not important regions like africa, Norway, some islands in pacific for example. Put coal there and balance it so there is a reson for agresors to fight there (sorry for my English, I am 🇨🇿)
i disagree as this only really effects the axis who already have resource problems and trucks and planes eat up so much rubber and yes the factories create a lot but you still have to research them and build them first which is less likely when your trying to pump out a hundred trucks, planes and tanks and you gotta research new guns and by this point oil is the least of your concerns.
I agree that it is too easy for Germany to obtain fuel and rubber from the synthetic pathway. I would like to see it made more difficult. I like the idea of stockpiling rubber as well as fuel. I think it does need to eat into the economic cost of a nation. It could cost perhaps two economic slots in a province instead of one, or cost more to run. Either way it should change to make it more difficult.
good idea i think!
What if they tied it to a certain level of Conscription as a prerequisite and for Construction Speed/Cost / Production Output, and/or tied to Trade for as a prerequisite to trade X% resources ti make these Factories, and/or Economic again, as a prerequisite level and what % of factories (rather than how many per state) can be these kind & maybe a construction speed modifier.
Like maybe Early Mob let's fascist/communist countries start making these factories (with research) but Partial Mob for non-aligned/democratic and the later, have a negative construction speed until they can adopt a War Economy. Unless through special Focuses or Events or Actions/Policies. Maybe there are even National Spirits for Coal Heavy nations that give them speed to construct them but less efficiency (because they can afford to be wasteful with their coal.) Maybe some countries cannot make them at all if they are democratic (like island nations or something.) Maybe there is additional limits, like you have to have X Consumer & Y Military Factories per Syn Fact. tied into the whole Economic Law and Trade Law.
Id argue against complexity, complexity does not equal good
Or due to the consumer goods rework, maybe make the synthetic oil add consumer goods debuf a small one at the start but it will increase with every new build
No thanks.
Make synthetic refineries more expensive to build no matter where? I'd rather eat glass.
Hmm yes Synthetic oil remake when?
Got up to 3:47 and gotta nope out there. What you're giving up is a building slot. Into that building slot you can put a civilian factory. Three synthetic refineries fully researched will net you 15 rubber (minus trade if you're not closed), and 360 fuel. Three civs can be used to purchase 1 oil and 2 rubber, giving you 16 rubber (regardless of trade policy) and 800 fuel. So the only countries it actually makes sense for are the fascist countries because they get embargoed and MAYBE the comintern if they go to war with the allies.
In particular the US does not need fuel and never goes to closed economy, so the best they can get with 3 refineries is 7.5 rubber, less than they can get with a single civvy. Meanwhile Britain and France might need oil if they go hard on navy and air, but they would need 7 synthetic refineries to do the work of one civvy to the US or the soviets. Even as China rushing basic naval heavies with non-strategic materials and focusing them on the South China Sea is more than enough to secure enough rubber to replace losses in the air until the Japanese fleet is destroyed. Additionally, while it doesn't matter much in single player, boosting an ally by trading with them is win-win.
On democratic or non-aligned playthroughs, if you're thinking you might need a synthetic refinery build a civ instead.
When does Germany run out of building slots?
@@FeedbackIRL On core territory? 1941 or so. I already said fascist countries are the exception.
Simple solution. The more synthetic refineries you produce, the more consumer goods you have to spend on the process. Simple and effective, it's a pity it will never be in the game...
It would need to be a ratio against your total economy, something along the lines of total refineries / total civilian factories, but otherwise this would work better with how HOI4 works. There aren't any sliders in the game and oil is already special because it's stockpiled instead of use or lose like all the other resources, I think is the main design problem with the slider solution suggested in the video is that it adds a special system on top of a special system, for more micromanagement of something other than the war game.
If that gets implemented, people would stop building refineries. They just ain't worth the hit to the economy.
@@Vaelosh466 just add them to your factory count and you have a consumer goods price for them...
現在的油料方式還是算複雜的了，以前的版本是直接用"油料" 製作坦克、飛機與戰艦
還要蓋跟研究煉油廠、超級昂貴以外還有數量限制
而且除了英國以外的其他主要國家，基本上都沒有多少橡膠可以使用，至少沒有這麼多到可以大量超產飛機跟卡車
Im gonna be biased here. I love playing the minor nations with historical turned off. I feel like a lot of minor nations already struggle with resources and industry that this would nerf them pretty hard. I get it, R E A L I S M, but also it's a game and fun should be the main thing to focus on.
Maybe if they also reworked resource locations too. I get that some areas were not developed for resources until the 60's, but if you get through enough of the resource extraction and building tech tree you should be able to get the congo's resources or rubber in Guatemala as examples. i know it already works like this for some countries, plus from focuses like Japan.
Idk though, like I said I'm biased and I know it's hard to balance some of that since more resources means more troops which would slow down the game significantly.
You have to defferentiate between synthetic rubber and synthetic fuel. Those are two totally different processes. Synthetic fuel is totally ineffecient. Not many states used it after. the war. Only one I can think of is south Africa. Interestingly the technology gets important again with climate change just with plant based Ressources today.
Synthetic rubber is a totally different story. You can use oil products from synthetic or natural sources to produce rubber. Synthetic rubber is superior to rubber plantations. It's cheaper, has a higher quality and can be locally produced. When the war ended and the technology spreaded everyone used synthetic rubber and the rubber plantations declined.
I think it's good how it's implemented now. The cost is reflected by the high building cost and by blocking a factory spot. Perhaps you could improve it with an iron/steel/coal rework with the implementation of iron ore
You double researched some tech, giving you an incorrect outcome. After you had done research all, you had some research going on. All of those still being researched got their buff twice.
If you wanted to add complexity you could create an energy system in the game add coal and the ability to build dams and power stations
The fuel for power being rivers coal or oil and the more power stations with adequate fuel you build the better the effects
The benefit of the "power" being you can alter the amount of consumer goods factories or production efficiency
As for the synthetic refineries you can turn them on or off or alter the percent being at full production and depending on your usage you can divert power to synthetic production which would alter your efficiency or consumer goods percent and you can alter synthetic inputs like you can use oil as an input and get synthetic rubber more efficiently than if you were to utilize coal additionally give the ability to stockpile rubber and coal and create a separate oil stockpile independent from whats being drawn from for fuel specifically for emergencies
It would add more depth to the game and more strategic targets if you hit dams or power stations you weaken enemy economies and their ability to bypass embargoes or losses overseas by producing synthetics
It's a valid point and a good idea.
But I'm possibly in a minority as I'm at a point with HOI4 where I don't want it to be predominantly a war simulator, I want there to be 50/50 mix of war and economics.
HOI4 probably can't do what I'm after, maybe HOI5 will
Meh, sorry but youre wrong on that... ref costs a lot, unless youre doing "ic" making enough refineries to fuel anything and "research_on_icon_click" to get all the research done. If you doing it the normal way, takes a lot of resource and research to get enough.
Nah. It’s fine how it is.
I mean you do stockpile political power, manpower, fuel, command power...
It won't be increadibly difficult to make money and energy system.
I kinda wish the market and resources in HoI4 were like the same as in Stellaris.
It would make much more sense.
I see someone read my comment and thought about it more deeply.
To provide some context: I suggested that adding coal as a fuel resource that would be consumed to make synthetic oil.
Even easier: each refinery = 1% CG. That's it.
So you have 1946? technology and complaine that its to mutch?
The resource system in Hoi4 is dogshit. You cant even stock pile the other main resources.
The resource locations and amount of resources are also wild.
Supply hubs are also super expensive. If supply hubs also stocked steel, aluminium etc then there might be more of an incentive to build them.
Usa and ussr will benifit for this
I have to be honest I don't agree at all. Synthetic oil techs take a lot of time to research, and you aren't getting those max rubber and feel benefits until very late game.
And even with max research bonuses, 5 rubber is still significantly worse than trading for it with civilian factories. And yea there is the fuel gain, but that's also less than half of what you get by trading a civilian factory.
Not to mention civilian factories are cheaper, and they're more versatile if you want to trade for a different resource. The current system taxes your building speed, efficiency, production cost, trade flexibility, and output, but lets you circumvent trade/embargo. I think that is plenty historically accurate and it's way less taxing on the player's mind than your suggestion.
I could be persuaded to embrace some adjustment to the system, but the system you proposed would just make me ignore it as a mechanic
Edit: I do like the video, and its a fun thought experiment. Thanks Dave.
I liked more the simpler version
Paradox is allergic to realism and challenge, because it might cost them the sale of a single game license. So this will never happen. Better play a mod.
Find me a super realistic and challenging grand steategy game that actually sold well
And invading ussr kinda becomes meaningless
I think synthetic refineries are weak. They are very good at magically producing rubber but terrible at producing fuel. Fuel techs take very long to research as the base time is very high. So it is already super costly to invest into.
Now lets compare 1944 tech outcomes. Germany getting 420 rubber is enough for the entire axis. This translates to 210 factories on planes with self sealing fuel tanks. (Without the +2 rubber from focus) The problem is fuel production. 10k oil is enough to exercise your fleet, army and air force but cannot even sustain a single 2000 jet fighter stack. So for a tech that takes super long to research, it doesnt even help late game.
I think the way they work now is fine. I even think the fuel aspect should get a buff. Increasing consumer goods is acceptable by 5% if total synthetic fuel gain is increased by another 100% if not more. Modern tanks, planes and ships will bankrupt your economy before you have enough fuel.
I can see from where u coming from. Tho, i need to say that the game will be even more complex. If you just play the vanilla hoi4 there is allready so mutch to learn in terms of mechanics. When you play with DLCs, you have basically a new game. Additonally you can get mods. I dont really think it is needed. When i see people post their templates, i can see that they did not even understand "basic" game mechanics. Which is fine, but i don't think its requierd to add more and more and more.
Yep if the game bothered with esoteric oil mechanics I would have refunded the game
Correct. You want to abstract as much of reality as possible into a concise game mechanic to make the user interface as intuitive as possible.
You never want your user interface to be a barrier between the player and the game.
There are mods which get into the weeds with things like ammunition, when that falls under the umbrella of infantry equipment.
It‘s like a _‘RELOAD‘_ button in an FPS game.
You don’t need a complex system for removing a mag, stowing a mag, grabbing a mag, guiding the mag into the magwell, hitting the bolt release, etc
That’s all abstracted into the reload action.
I disagree, using oil to make rubber and fuel makes sense and it is very expensive, not only is the research very expensive, the synth factory is very expensive and it takes the place of factories, reducing the factory output forever. Your extreme example of making synth factories in every state will never happen in a game, i would love to see you do that in a game and see what the cost actually is. 10 states of three synth is the same as reducing your economy by 30 civs. THAT is expensive. AND does Germany even have the oil to produce that much rubber.
It really does not matter. The AI cheats anyway and never runs out of fuel....
Ai just trades for fuel, you can check who sells oil to them and convoy raid the coast if its naval supply
The min maxers will find a way, no matter what you do or how difficult you make it, the Germany players who do MP will know exactly how much they need to build and what is the optimal amount required for the process before Poland and before Barb.
The guys who will be playing in Czocha Castle like Dankus, Golden, or TommyKay are not the entirety of HOI4 players, they are a VERY SMALL niche community of professional ESports users.
So really, your suggestion is only attempting to turn the screws on the casual players by increasing the difficulty of an already fairly complex game. And it is a game, a game that PDX want to sell to casual players and not have them immediately demand their money back..right? How much do they want to tighten the screws on said casual players?
I hope it stays as it is, since the more “realistic” additions they make in this game it just makes it more annoying to play and write code.
Man you need ti stop making videos
Stress on Germany? Step 1) Conquer Netherlands Step 2) What stress?
Actually claiming the DEI, you need to capitulate the Allies to get the territory you haven't physically conquered. Granted, SeaLion against the AI isn't hard, but...
@@nathanstruble2177 justify on the DEI, walk into HOL early. DEI Auto capitulates. Annex.
They can’t join a faction until world tension is very high.
Justifying on DEI won’t raise world tension as much.
My God, I have a hard time believing you play this game anymore. German panzer divisions use an enormous amount of fuel. So does combat air patrol. Even with Europe under German control and a lot of oil plants working away, the German army is nowhere near as mechanized as I would like on the Russian front. If I build too many oil plants then there is fewer military factories available to replace losses on the front. Because if you haven't beat Russia in a 12 months. The the stockpiles of planes, tanks guns and fuel run low. Then it gets interesting. The Surface Navy gets docked only to react. AA batteries don't cost fuel so now your building those in addition to fighters. Tank divisions get parked for fuel and reinforcement. You can only build so fast. You are clearly cheating. You can't simply click on all the provinces and max everything out. It takes time. The game designers put in mechanisms to correct Germany's mistakes. Naval bomber development for example. If they had such weapons the Atlantic blockade would have been tighter in the Med. Italy might have been secure longer. But with no oil it wouldn't matter. Planes are grounded. Navy cannot sail. Game over. You forget Strategic bombing can suppress oil production once the Allies find it. That is why it's banned in multiplayer so you probably don't know how to deal with it. And the AI sucks at Bombing in Single Player. Another reason to leave this feature alone.
I don't want to play an economics game I just want to have fun and paint the map.
And don't be like me then they released HOI 4. I hated this game because I played HOI3 and I hated army command structure. If you make complicated game only hardcore fans will play this game. I love overpowered focus tree. And most people play this game against AI. And if you not happy you can download a mod