Why I’m Ditching D&D 5e and Moving to Pathfinder 2e
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- Опубліковано 10 кві 2023
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Today we explore the reasons why I'm making the switch from D&D 5e to Pathfinder 2e. We discuss the advantages of Pathfinder 2e, including increased character customization, deeper class mechanics, and a more tactical combat system. We also examine the shortcomings of D&D 5e and why they led me to make the switch to Pathfinder 2e. Whether you're a seasoned RPG player or just starting out, this video is for anyone looking to level up their gaming experience. With in-depth analysis, expert insights, and a comprehensive guide to switching systems, this is the ultimate showdown between D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e.
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1:58 Game Balance
3:07 High-Level Play
4:24 The Cheese
5:55 Character Customization
7:57 PF2 Monsters
9:05 Combat is Better
9:53 More Challenging
10:58 Robust Rules
12:13 One D&D
13:08 Not Supporting WOTC
#dungeonsanddragons #pathfinder #gamemaster - Ігри
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Since you like the robustness of PF2e I recommend looking at Paizo's Starfinder, it's not as robust (as it's older than 2e) but, it's just about has the same feel.
TTRPG system designer here: Yes, PF2e is a clearly superior design to 5e in most capacities. Some things can be argued by preference but overall I'm fairly certain while I've encountered countless examples of arguments why PF2e is better, I've never seen a compelling reason outside of niche preferences that 5e is better with one exception: PF2e is far more complex and a lot of players don't want that, which is fair, but for a lot of us we want that. I'd call this a valid argument because it's about 50/50 where someone will fall into either camp rather than a clear split of one concept being clearly better than the other.
That said, there are things you will discover about PF2e that will eventually annoy you as well, but to be honest, it's just a better system if you want a monster of the week style fantasy game and it also supports other aspects of the game better as well (ie it's not just a game about punching the monster till loot falls out, it also has better robust sections for stuff like social and stealth and other mini games).
That said I think it's great you're moving to a new system. As a designer my best suggestion for most GMs is to play lots of diferent kinds of systems to learn how different systems do different things well or poorly. In that vein I'd say, learn to love PF2e, but don't stop there, and that goes for any GM. Keep playing other completely different kinds of games and learn from them, it will only benefit your content to have broader knowledge and experiences. Play games of vastly different genres and systems and with different kinds of game play modes and intended play experiences and you'll broaden your design thinking which not only makes your products better as a designer, but also will make you a far better GM :)
I'm so glad that people called out 5e making the PCs super heroes. I usually end up getting complaints on my preference for 3.5e and Pathfinder 1e saying I just want superhero characters. I just like the fact that I don't have to make a homebrew class to play the character concept I want.
I'll be looking forward to your new Pathfinder 2e videos. I've only watched a couple of your videos in the past, just for the generic tips. D&D 5e was not for me.
I'm currently in a 3.5 Eberron game, a Genesys: Shadow of the Beanstalk game, and just wrapped up a Vampire: the Requiem game. Playing in different game systems is a blast. I never liked 5e and haven't yet tried Pathfinder 2e. My Vampire group is moving on to a Starfinder campaign in a couple of months. GMing is fun, but it's good to be a player once in awhile as well, to help remind yourself of how the other side of the table is.
I'll continue to support your channel. You've always stayed true to your principles and your content's too excellent to give up. Stay awesome.
I've gotta say, my biggest complaint with PF2e is that I didn't start running it years ago. It feels like it was designed by people who actually play and run games, rather than to look pretty on the page with a bit of influence from the people who play. Plus, I LOVE that you can actually have solo monsters that are a threat by themselves and not either a) curbstomp for the players or b) a TPK waiting to happen. Having to artificially create minions for every single monster, even if they wouldn't have any, is quite tiring.
I feel the same. I should have started my last dnd campaign in pathfinder instead. I played it into tier 3 and tier 4, to level 20 and beyond and oh boy does dnd show its weaknesses and shortcomings there. I hated running that game in dnd. Seriously the only thing dnd has going for it is that it is that its popular, as a game its inferior in almost every way to pf2e.
Seems that way bc it is that way. The writers for piazo are long time players.
As a 5e DM of several years: Yes...
I LOVE the Forgotten Realms setting, but i have come to develop a type of... hate? ...for 5e. 5e is Player Focused: It's easy for the Players, but hard on the DM.
5e is HEAVY to run. People who haven't DMed 5e simply can't begin to imagine how taxing High Level 5e is for the DM. Both the players and i are exhausted after a session now. What really breaks us is all the status effects to keep track of that basically every high level PC and Monster put out. Dots (like Bane), Buffs, Conditions etc is just too much of a cognitive load on all of us so it bogs down everything to a slog. That stuff is for computer games to process, not for friends around a table.
To not break as the DM at high level play, i solved it like this: As soon as a group reach mid-tier i stopped trying to figure out the challenge and just picked a somewhat appropriate monster for the situation. During the fight i wrote down the Damage the players did to it. When it seemed reasonable, or if the players indicate loosing steam (or i did), i let the monster die. That worked for a while and prolonged the inevitable...
...in the end, i gave up on 5e. I haven't DMed in over a year now simply because i can't bring myself to put in the effort anymore. It's not fun. I get stressed just thinking about.
I'm longing for the day i have the energy to start DMing again. But the next time... it won't be D&D.
@PerfectionHunter ahhh dm burnout is a real thing. I've been running games for almost 25 years now. The best thing I've found to help replenish you is asking for someone at the table to run a 1 shot or 2, or a campaign if they want. If it's the system dragging everyone down a switch could be something that you try.
As for keeping up with dots ect I just make a notation on my initiative sheet. Like beside the monster if it's dotted then in the turn column I put a number or later that I cross out as the turn comes up. Or just say that the player has to keep up with it.
I hope you go back to heading the table again, every dm is precious... except those guys.. *points at the killer dm and psycho dm* lol
@@PerfectionHunter As someone who has run a lot of high level d&d- I don't agree. I don't put any more effort into the high levels, than low levels. I've run 3 campaigns from 1-20 in 5e, and working on 3 more.
As for the the slogging down of the game, PF2e is much worse than D&D (I don't consider D&D 5e an issue, PF2e on the other hand...)- The number crunching is still there, high level isn't challenging as much as you are increasing relevant numbers similar as levels go up. That is what D&D took out because people were complaining that lower level stuff cannot even hit characters, and characters couldn't even scratch higher level stuff. Play testing PF2e showed me that all the things I didn't like about 3.5/Pathfinder were still there.
To point 4: Many of us P2E players use the "Free Archetype" system, which is kind of like Multiclassing but way more balanced, to help flesh out their character even more. It doesn't add much player power and it lets a player have a robust and defined mechanical skillset for their Acrobat Fighter or Pirate Wizard or Zombie Monk.
"Many of us"
Meaning r/PF2e Redditors. I don't use FA and nobody has ever asked me to.
@@leonaquilla2547 I think it's you and your friends. I play with a pretty diverse bunch of people and > 50% of games are played with a FA. It's just an option (a pretty common one in my experience) among others.
@@leonaquilla2547 Just to add my anecdote, my table uses FA as well. It's really fun, I think your table should try it out as well :)
@@leonaquilla2547 one of my groups recently switched from Pf1 to Pf2 and after only one game we started using the FA rule. It just puts more character in your character and who wouldn't want more options?
Alchemist gets power boosts from FA, but thats more because a lot of their class feats are math fixers and you can get some of them with FA/get better math fixers via FA. Otherwise its just added utility or flavor or a party pet or something which is neat or allows a less optimal part of the system to be useful, IE non spellheart talismans.
"We won't be calling them Dungeon Masters anymore, that is a D&D Term that we're leaving Behind"
- Luke from the DM Lair, wearing a shirt with DM written across his chest in bright red letters
how will DMs be called now?
@@someonewithsomename The typical term in Pathfinder, dating back to Pathfinder 1st edition, is Game Master, or GM for short.
@@FlameUser64 yeah, I actually realised it was a silly question afterwards and that I know the answer :D
Thanks for the reply anyways
He only has the change one letter 😛
Yeah it's weird, he posted 4 videos with "D&D" written in the thumbnail back to back in the last 2 months
As someone who has played pathfinder and pathfinder 2E for over 8 years now I have to say that I really like the death mechanic in pathfinder compared to dnd, it felt like there is stakes in every battle since you don’t get a save for living or not
Yeah. Now, to be fair, at a glance the PF2E system is actually kind of similar. You make checks that are similar to death saves etc, but the differences make going down in PF2E more impactful, and you want to avoid 'whack a mole healing' where you have someone going down and then being brought up multiple times.
As a PF2e GM and Player i really like your decision to finally change to that system a lot. Great times :-D
A zombie monk, that sound interesting, not gona lie
What I hate about 5e is that martials pretty much stop leveling up past level 7
Martials need special moves. Ranger hunter has a couple and battlemaster but that was it.
Make that level 5 (or 6 for paladins due to aura being so good)
You have to homebrew. I limit magic and boost martials, because I run Barbaric Fantasy games like in the world of Conan. I base the mechanics mostly on DnD 5e though. Even though DnD 5e is high fantasy, it can more easily be homebrewed for low fantasy.
Depends on the build and player. If your playing a fighter, there is a huge reason to keep leveling as a fighter. Third arrack at 11th level.
To a degree there's a point for casters too where the gaining of new slots is so slow and few in quantity it feels like you aren't getting levels every time you level up. Not helped by the fact spells after 7th start getting a little unimaginative and are just raw power. You'll often just use the slots for more fun lower level spells that scale.
7:26 Agreed. I literally built a time-displaced were-penguin gnoll detective with a mechanical arm for an April Fool's one-shot and not only was it comically weird it actually had really cool interactions and synergies. PF2e is a wild time.
Yeah you can create and recreate some really out there characters. For instance, you can nearly perfectly recreate Kamen Rider Den-O, who is a supernaturally unlucky time traveling superhero possessed by a genie who summons magical shape changing armour (soulforger + living vessel + chronoskimmer + cursed background)
@@INTCUWUSIUA Kamen Rider, in MY fantasy tabletop?! Based. Tried doing that with Artificer Armorer but it just didn’t feel the same lol
@@jemm113 The Soulforger Archetype lets you pull off basically any rider, since by 6th level you can teleport a full suit of armour onto yourself as a free action in response to rolling initiative or a hazard going off, which is basically a perfect Henshin.
Inventor still totally works for a more technologically inclined Rider, like Build, but you can get that Henshin hero feel with basically any class. Magus in particular works pretty good though since you can build them unarmed, spellstrike is perfect as a hisatsu, and Blazing Dive is a perfect Rider Kick.
@@jaysw9585 Ifyou want to keep things simple, there's a built in mechanism for it. Everything has a rarity tag, with common things being what you'd expect to find in a standard fantasy setting and uncommon and rare things being increasingly unusual.
Just tell your players you'll only be playing with common options and you'll have a much more standard experience. The rarity tags exist specifically so you can do this.
@@jaysw9585 "Crap" like this is exactly WHY I run Pathfinder. If you actually give the game time you'll find that most things are balanced quite well even if they sound outrageous. As an example, most of the time, you won't get permanent flight until 17th level as an ancestry or class option. (Fly spell is before that but it isn't permanent.)
A lot of what you find in archetypes is going to be flavor and/or underpowered compared to your base class. There are exceptions, of course but they're designed to give you horizontal progression and expansion rather than vertical.
I've had an absolute blast playing sub optimal, wild by design characters in Pathfinder that would be essentially impossible in other systems. And, as an added bonus, they were viable and useful in their own ways.
I've been wanting to learn Pathfinder for a while, thanks for one more push in that direction!
My local game shop is pushing pathfinder and i must say I've seen plenty of reasons. This from someone who played from 2ed through 3.5
A lot of good points in this video. No system is perfect but weighing the pros and cons helps in finding direction in finding a better mechanical game system. The WTOC OGL stunt speaks for itself.
Im so glad more people are starting to see the benefits of playing and running Pathfinder
Compare Marilith in PF2e and 5e. It's like one of the best examples you can have of differences between monsters.
Or owlbears
Wholeheartedly agree! One of my main villains in my 5E campaign was a marilith. Boy oh boy did I have to spice up that statblock to make her an actual cool enemy instead of a multiattack machine. Seeing the statblock in PF2 made me wish I had found it sooner.
Can you be more specific?
@ark1567 the owlbear for example has a thing where if it pins you down it disembowels you (you know like owls do) which not only does damage but forces a will save to not start throwing up at the sheer horror of it. And that's just one of its abilities.
@@ark1567 Just search “pf2e marilith” :)
All of PF2e’s rules and stat blocks are free to view and use
Some people will begrudge 2e for having a lot of rules (it has less than it seems), but it comes down to a weird mentality some people have that rules constrain you. They're tools, not chains. Certainly play it pretty strict while you learn the game but once you have a grasp on the balance guidelines a comprehensive rules set helps you tell the story you want. It's like having a paint set with more colors.
Pathfinder 2e is so comprehensive there's rules for playing with fewer rules. If you don't like a thing there's more often than not a rule somewhere for changing it.
I don't know. Seems to me like the rules in the Pathfinder 2nd edition are the main reason of good balancing.
Ignoring them seems more dangerous than in 5e.
Am I wrong?
Tbh form the general fans (didn't told me to kms because path fans are horrible). Path 2e is like very balance genga tower . changing or ignoring one mechanic will bring it all down
@@ark1567 You need to see it to understand what cheezeofages means. One simple example is that magic items have levels, and the GM has guidance on when to award +1 weapons as opposed to +2 and +3 weapons, and they all have prices. The encounter math has an expectation of what the party's attack bonuses will be as they level up.
There is an official variant rule called Automatic Bonus Progression that removes the need for the GM to upgrade +s on magic weapons and armor. So magic items can be more handed out without caring about the math, like in 5e. BUT the underlying system is more balanced than in 5e at the same time.
@@ark1567 Yes and no. If you are new to the system use caution. Once you are familiar it's far, far easier to homebrew imo.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG That's the problem I was talking about: too many rules. If something seems off can you ignore one without consequences? You say yes but it feels hard to belive. We'll see: I am probably going to give the system a try, but Pathfinder failed my expectations once and so far, it seems doomed to the same. You honestly made me reconsider my decision a bit.
Excited about the new direction of you and your company. Pathfinder needs more influencers to bring attention to this great game.
maybe try convincing all of the people who play Pathfinder1e, since more poeple play thAt than PF2e
@@badmojo0777 paizo's on record saying pf2e has sold more than pf1e ever did, and that was before the OGL debacle got even more people checking it out.
@@badmojo0777 I'm a pf1 player and ill tell you that's patently false
@@badmojo0777 You can pry my PF1 CRB and PRD and my 3rd edition PDFs (player gifts, ironically I never purchased anything from WotC except Saga Edition) out of my cold dead hands 🤣
PF2 seems like a decent game to start out with, but it's just too rigid for my tastes.
@@priestesslucy3299 im not playng edition wars, play the game you love, i support that, im not hating on the game im just tired of a holes whos only content online is trying to poach ANOTHER game's player base, why dont they start with their own 1e player base that never switched to 2e. Im also growing more irked by the fact tha tLuke here want sot profit off of 5e supplements while telling eveyrone the game is trahs. talk about hypocritical.
'
Another point: everything other than lore and adventures are free for pathfinder 2nd ed. Archives of Nethys has everything you need and it is supported by Paizo.
In a 5e game I played in, the DM was constantly coming to a full stop trying to figure out how to do something within the constraints of the rules. My responses would be a long the lines of "in 3 or 3.5 or Pathfinder...."
All because 5e couldn't be bothered to have a rule for that. And don't get me started on feats and magic items being "optional". WTFF?
Imo, 5e style feats are bad. You trade a combat boost in exchage for either a combat or rp boost in a game which is most about combat.
I would personally play without feats.
Pf2e handles feats more to my taste - separates them into combat and non-combat. I can't see same problem in shadowrun (yes, that disaster of a system... i mean the fifth one), as it seems? like you are incentivized to spread out a bit by karma costs for improving your battles capabilities slowly going through the roof.
Also, what annoys me a lot is that ALMOST NO ONE PLAYS 5E LIKE IT WAS DESIGNED.
Like, see al those memes about warlocks running out of spellslots or wizards being op?
Well, guess what, 5e is seemingly designed with 3-4 difficult or 5-8 normal encounters with 2 short rests per 1 long rest in mind.
Most groups? 1-2 encounters and maaaaaybe one short rest. Buffs classes which rely on short term through the roof and is usually mended with making encounters beyond deadly, nerfing short rest classes through the floor, while keeping the imbalance created by not having enought fights and short rests.
It's common sight how new 5e content replaces short rest stuff with long rest stuff.
One could think 5e was designed specifically for dungeon crawling.
Plus, new content for 5e is kinda... band-aids to it's problems.
Sounds like you need a better GM. If you need codified rules for every thing in your game provided by the game designer then you have a serious lack of creativity.
5e is a tightrope. In older editions you could just make * up without it breaking the entire game. 5e's attempt at bounded accuracy and lack of support for Roleplay and Exploration just mean that the game is just waiting for the straw that breaks it.
One of many reasons to play pre-WotC D&D, or a totally different system
I looked at 2e a few years ago, and decided that the options were pretty overwhelming. But now that so many people are talking about it, maybe I'll give it another chance. Ironically, one of my first impressions of Pathfinder 2e was how much it reminded me of D&D 4e. But unlike a lot of people here, I liked 4e.
The best bet I can give for overwhelming information in a new material is to just read through it once. Then go over it in more detail and take notes after.
PF2e does have a lot of 4e blood in it. Lead Designer for 2e (Logan Bonner) worked on 4e. So did Stephen Radney-McFarland who was a senior designer (and freelancer) for Paizo during 2e development.
Consider the Beginner Box! It is not a "baby version" of the rules, it just helps with that initial learning curve, and the rules you learn are the actual full rules, just with fewer options
Its one ofnthe reasons i recommend something like Mythras or Rolemaster
The funny thing, I didn't like 4th, but I love PF2e. I feel like it did a fantastic job of incorporating the good meaty parts of 4th into the much better bones of 3.x.
Felt this about 5e about a year ago, I've been running AD&D 1e for the last year and it's been a blast
And I've been running BECMI and B/X. Pathfinder looks like an amazing system, but it's cruchyness and "optimization mindset" isn't for me.
We still play 2nd and enjoy it
@@falkyrie5228
PF2e's floor and ceiling for optimization are actually much closer than you'd think. If you start with a 16 or an 18 in your hitting stat (physical for martials, casting stat for casters), you can pick for flavor from there thanks to the proficiency system making sure your numbers keep you relevant. What the game does want you to do is work with your team because one character will struggle to do it all, and that is a shift from the likes of 5e which always feels like each character is a self-contained superhero that only tangentially cares what their party members are doing, and I've watched my players struggle with that.
@@falkyrie5228 it's fine not likekng pf2, but there's actually not that much optimization. I run a group of first-timers (and i am myself) and nobody cares about optimisation at all. Our rouge takes a lot of things just for flavor of demon-hunter knowing full well there won't be demons in the adventure and he still does well. Most of the "options" like feats dont give you numbers, so after character creation you're mostly done with "stat optimisation".
The OSR sub-genre awaits you!
In terms of feat options and class options, while some are clearly more useful than others there aren't any that as broken as the three feats from 5th ed that absolutely everyone uses because they're leaps and bounds above every other feat.
I know Lucky is one of them but what are the others? Sharpshooter and GWM are always used on my tables
@@MrShinjiTabris Yup, you called them. For PF 2e there are certainly optimized selections but because of the sheer amount of options, it doesn't feel like an obligation like those three do in 5e.
@@skamosfb yeah I think the closest PF2e probably has to an autopick feat is some of the medicine skill feats, but you only need one person in the party to have the skill and they're more so desirable for out of combat convenience than in combat power.
@@xaropevic7918
Not many tables actually do 8 encounters per day. Most will hard stop for the day when resources get even mildly pushed. Which makes 3 a day absolutely broken. There's a reason most people jump to Lucky as the prime example.
@@skamosfb Alongside that, more RP heavy campaigns will have even fewer chances to use those so they become even more potent. Lucky is only balanced if you're constantly fighting/rolling stuff so that you aren't always able to get a good roll
Listening to this video, you sound exactly like our group's GM when he asked us to try PF2 2 years ago (which we have been happily playing since). I think PF2 is so much more GM friendly than DND 5E and while I can still recall how intimidating all the player options are at first, that initial weakness quickly becomes a strength as you keep finding layers of new strategies/tactics and unique (and viable) builds to try.
If you wanna make Path Finder content go ahead. I started in path finder first edition around 10th grade, so I look forward to playing PF2e after all this time.
I've always run 1e pathfinder played 3.5 and 5th dnd as a player.
I've watched your videos for a few years now I've always found your stuff helpful. Going into 2e soon would love to watch some 2e content from tips and breakdowns to playthroughs I hope your groups love 2e and all of you have a blast
Spot on with your reasons here, but I think there is one you forgot to mention: A lot of your consumers are switching for the same reason, so this is also a great business decision. As a GM I've always loved online resources like the DM Lair but (for the reasons you mention) I am switching to Pathfinder 2e. I was a little sad that your resources wouldn't match my game system anymore, and then you come out with this video! Glad to see you are switching too.
I love your energy and your perspective on gaming. I look forward to seeing more PF2 content from you.
So happy to see you switching systems! Looking forward to watching your 2e content in the future ❤
I respect this move Luke! My friends and I have a Pathfinder game alongside our other 5e games and we are really really liking it so far. Definitely notice a difference for the better in character options and balance.
Games I've played since my groups quit 5e: Mörk_borg, Cy_borg, Blade Runner, Twilight 2000, Old School Essentials. Upcoming games include: Alien, In to the Odd, Kult divinity lost.
Let's put it like this. 5e is just one game and there's so much other stuff out there that's amazing. Dumping 5e is the easiest decision you can make once you open your mind to other games.
Strongly suggest Fate. It's by far my favorite system!
@@bernardosilva7306 Good suggestion. I actually own both Fate and Fate Accelerated but never had the chance to play them. Maybe it's time to do it now. :)
My fave session i ever played used the from the loop system.. really the most fun i ever had in a ttrpg
I have really enjoyed my time with PF2 but cannot seem to find a group that wants to consistently play it. Excited to see what content you bring out in the future!
Even on Roll20 you cannot find anyone?
New and casual players bounce off PF2e. Why? Lack of brand market penetration; too many rules to parse; too many rules to keep track of when creating characters and playing.
@Aasinp The main issue with roll20 is there aren't many free GMs on there for PF2E. A lot of GMs use foundry and get games from various discord groups. Lots of players looking, but very few people running the games and they fill quickly
Good for y’all. Glad you’re excited!
small handful of my DM friends are switching. WotC is lucky with me in that my job is enough of a taxing time-sink, that I just do have the mental bandwidth to learn a whole new system.
*do not have bandwidth
See? =]
Understandable. Though I will say if you know 5e you are like 80% of the way there.
PF2e is pretty similar, so there's not that much extra to learn if you already know 5e. In general, once you know one system learning more gets easier
@@INTCUWUSIUA good to know. Im fortunate enough that one of my close DM friends has dove in full force to learning PF2e. So if I ever do get bored with what 5e can do, I have someone who can give me some guidance. That might be a lil type while though. Only started D&D as a player 2ish years ago (dug into it after finding CR during early Covid lockdowns) and as a DM 4 months ago. I’ve only really dug into a ranger/rogue and a barbarian character. At some point I’m sure I’ll get bored and/or with 5e but it’s probably a long while from now. Largely just see potential at the moment.
Yeees!! I kept homebrewing 5e to make it better for me and my group only to eventually find out that most of my homebrew was just pf2e core rules. Super happy to see it getting more attention!
I've been a DM since high school waaaaaaaaaay back in 1976 and had stuck with it through all the tribulation (looking at you 4e). Moved my group to PF2e three months ago. After the first game there was a lull in happy chatter when one of my players said what we were all thinking.... How come we never tried this before? Thanks for all that you do. As a permi-DM, you've gotten me through more than a couple slumps. Looking forward to the new content.
My group just finished the campaign of Age of Ashes. We started at level 1, and made it to level 20. I ran that campaign for 2 years and one week shy of 2 months. We had an absolute blast. While I do still love 5e, it has a few issues that I quite frankly do no like. But I won't type up of a big long diatribe on that, but honestly I could.
I ran a group through AoA too - congratulations! It was epic. Been taking a TTRPG/GM break since then, but there are so many awesome APs to pick from by now that I'll be back at it again before long. 2e is not perfect but it is way better for me and my players than 5e, in most ways.
I have to agree. I am currently reading the PF2E rules and preparing to switch. If it was not for the per-work I have already done and my party of players who have been in this 5e campaign for several years now I would switch right away. Look forward to seeing what you and your team releases for PF2E.
Tangent about something you mention in video: Hexblade is definitely not the one you take pure Warlock levels in. It's only the most popular because of the benefits it offers for a 1 or 2 level dip. If you're going pure Warlock, you go Genie or Undead! They are so very powerful and versatile. The class is very underrated due to how people view it as a front loaded dip you get use to beef up your Sorcerer or Bard build.
I went with Celestial warlock. It was more for the theme of a character idea I got from The Daily Roll webcomic. She took a level in Cleric after going down too many times in close quarters and after devoting herself to her patron's deity. It really helped that the DM allowed me to homebrew a radiant version of Eldritch Blast.
I thought any pure Warlock was decent as long as you were willing to endure the boredom of spamming Eldritch Blast round after round, combat after combat?
@@kryptonianguest1903 You get several spell slots to work with and can comfortably cast at least one concentration spell while you blast, since those slots come back on a short rest. Besides,EBARB is a lot more dynamic than a typical melee character since it involves forced movement that can potentially change the circumstances of a battle.
I really appreciate this video! My table made the change as well. I'll be using this to help convince 5e players to give Pathfinder a try.
Convert you mean, same tactic as missionaries use. Let them " try " then ram them hard with sauve convincing or shame them if they dont fall for it. Cant you rather ditch both D&D and PF for smaller TTRPG that deserve attwntion tenfold more? Paizo and WotC are equally bad suit corpo wise, Paizo is better at hiding it. Dont fool yourself
@@odinulveson9101 Paizo is still way smaller and hasn't done anything bad yet.
I got some dnd players over recently and they like it so far you just have to know the rules a bit. If you can go to a convention or do pathfinder society games first that will help. Also if you are the sole gm they will have no choice but play lol
Excellent! Glad to see you moving in this direction.
I agree with you entirely. I picked up PF2E when it first came out. I love it, but it's a little crunchy.
Like you, I have tons of 5E monster books.(It's an addiction.) My goal is to pull the 5E monsters I love from those books into PF2E. I hope you're planning to do the same. You and your team might consider making conversion suggestions? Just a thought.
The PF2 GMG has monster building guidelines that actually work, so it should be easier to convert into PF2 than most other DND style games.
YEAH. I would love to see some kind of formula that you can plug a dnd monsters stats into to convert to pathfinders stats. Cuz the ac of monsters in pathfinder tend to be like twice as much and the to hit is like, 3 times as much.
@@kryptonianguest1903 It's useful, but not 100%. The GM still has to define a lot of the traits. I'm taking the crash course in monster design right now. The GMG is super helpful.
@@reahnheflen2205 The trick is to not think in terms of DND monster vs PF2 monster. Decide what level you want the monster to be. Is the Attack Bonus or whatever stat High, Medium or Low? Look up the table for that stat and cross reference the level with High, Medium or Low. You now have the number you wanted or a small range to pick from. Easy peasy.
1300 Monstes in PF2e and guy wants to convert "monsters I love from 5e"... the cringe.
While I haven't played pathfinder, from what I have seen while researching stuff for D&D, is that they have created multiple new creatures as well, and when I looked at the stat block, they were very unique and had lots of flavour.
I've never been a big 5e fan and don't run it myself. However, I have always loved this channel as a long time game master of multiple systems and have used this channel to further hone my craft because many game master techniques are universal. I'm excited to see where the channel goes.
I still play 5th Ed D&D but with house rules. I’ve always completely ignored CR when designing encounters. When playing bought campaigns, I frequently increase the numbers of monsters by 50%. No multi classing helps prevent the cheese. Limit opportunities for long rests to ‘civilisation’. Make death saves for characters, hidden behind the DM screen to increase uncertainty and a sense of real danger. I encourage everyone to play humans by giving them additional re rolls on stats during character creation. It makes the game much more human centric and makes darkness scary. Old school feel.
My favorite part of 5e has been 3rd party content, I'm currently switching to Pazio products, and thoroughly enjoying
Agreed 100% On the bright side, the OGL disaster has, at least, gotten a lot of players more open to trying Pathfinder 2, which has been great. I was running 5e because it was the only system people would sign up for, but people seem to be branching out now, which is exciting.
I am in the same boat as you. I am finishing out the current modules I am running for my 5e group then converting their characters to pathfinder 2e to the closest they can go. And your points reflect my own. Specially the CR thing. The favorite example is the intellect devourer, that thing is totally not a cr2. It can straight up merc on its own if it gets lucky even high level characters.
As someone who is making their own system, I love your videos for inspiration and perspective. Hopefully one day I can get you to try out my own game!
I've had my problems with 5e for years. Been exploring other systems to try and find one that scratched the itches I was looking for.
PF2e was the one I've been looking for. I'm happy to see the mass migration to the system and the support it and Paizo rightfully deserve. We're happy to have you.
Luke I love your channel and still watch it even though we swapped to PF2e 9 months ago for the same reasons you have. I really hope your channel and patreon continues to be successful if you start to just focus on PF2e content.
Awesome. My group switched a few months ago for the same reasons. We do not regret it in the slightest.
Welcome to the club!
Just learned about you from your video with the Rules Lawyer!! Really cool to see you make the switch. Instant sub!
You put into words my biggest issues with 5e and why I'm also switching to pf2e.
Just wait until You read the Advanced Players, the customization options for characters in that book will blow your mind (to me is basically the return to pretige classes from 3rd which I love).
Amen there, hearing that they have that? Makes me want to switch. Because we all loved that, and 5E has just gotten too... Yeah.
Thanks for all your hard work. I've definitely found great tipss here
Welcome to the PF2 family, Luke. Even though I always played pf2 I always watched your videos. Its strangely happy for me to see you arround the system I like.
I have played both systems and I liked both systems. Both systems have there pros and cons.
The OGL debacle is the straw that broke the camel's back for me too. I'm still running Icewind Dale but this is the last 5e game. I'm getting Kingmaker for my brother (I was going to get the 5e bestiary) for his birthday and he's going to run pathfinder.
I made the switch a couple of months before the whole OGL saga. My only gripe is that I didn't try Pathfinder 2e sooner! So glad that you will be doing Pathfinder 2e content.
I would love if you went through 2e options that are better than or nonexistent in 5e. Like spells that have more options and are more flexible, or outright have no parallel in 5e. Same with items and the such
Good video. I've been playing Pathfinder 2e for a couple of years now. I love it. I watch your channel regularly because I found that most of your content applies to either game (D&D and P2e).
The one down side to P2e is that it is a little too rules crunchy for casual players. Some players prefer the ready made out of the box PCs that D&D 5e provides. That is to say D&D's characters have many of their abilities baked in as a class feature where as P2e does much of this through the player selected Feats System. The whole; "...you're 4th level, you can do this now...", vs "...you're 4th level, time to choose another class Feat".
I wish Paizo, or a 3rd party content creator (😉) would come up with a resource for casual (or lazy) players as quick PC templates.
I was considering swapping over to PF2 also, bit then ShadowDark popped up on my radar and that is now going to be my game of choice. At least for a while.
I was looking to get into TTRPGs, and I had decided to get the Pathfinder 2e starter box. I'm glad I found this video to confirm that this was a good idea.
I also became disillusioned over D&D 5e during the whole OGL debacle. I've been reading up on Monte Cook's Cypher System (which I really like) but I'll have to look into Pathfinder 2e as well. Happy gaming!
What do you mean bladelock is the only viable high level warlock?
From my experience, if you wish to play 100% warlock your strongest options by far are an eldritch blast using caster style genie dao ir undead patron warlock with one of the three other pacts. Hexblade is also strong in this setup, but not because of Pact of the blade. It gets medium armor and a single target damage boost for eldritch blast.
I would say that his lack of experience with higher level D&D is showing with this and the comment on balancing at higher levels.
Based on your current reading of PF 2e game how does it compare to 3e D&D? I have yet to fully leave 3e in the past (mostly because the broken bits of 5e I fix with 3e).
PF2E definitely has some 3e DNA in it, but if 3e is a primarily simulationist system, then PF2e is a far more gamist system.
Or in other words, PF2e is sort of like the best parts of 3e combined with the best parts of 4e, though it cuts a bit closer to 4e than 3e.
While PF2e obviously has some connection to 3e and 3.5, its very much a different system based on the same foundations.Roll the same dice and have similar things like skills, proficiency, etc. but the math and how it functions is pretty different. Worth picking up the PDF of the CRB or buying the Beginner's Box to check it out!
@@ZachHall Thanks for the insight.
@@INTCUWUSIUA Thanks for the insight.
I applaud your stance, your logic, and your decision! Good for you and even more success in the future!
Good luck! Wishing you much success
I'm still waiting on a PF 2 corebook to be available. Really want this book. Hopefully within a month
Free to DL, Pathfinder 2e Core Rulebook
They have said on their web page that they should get it sometime toward the middle of this month.
I've seen copies at Barnes and Noble
5:10 I agreed very much with this. Pathfinder 2e balances pretty cautiously to give them more design space to make new things without breaking the game AND because it feels way better at the table if the GM powers something up rather than nerfs it. Plus if you overshoot and half to weaken your change it's likely still better than baseline so it's not so bad. And honestly "Oh I over buffed that you've had an ability that was too strong for a bit." is better feel than "Sorry, I over-nerfed that and you've had a bad ability for a bit."
Fantastic video, thanks for sharing you knowledge
I'm also moving to pathfinder. But I won't run Pathfinder until I understand it. Still trying to figure out the 3 action thingy
6:25 Slightly disagree there, I would say pure Warlock is middle of the pack, with Bladelock definetly not being amongst the best (Hexblade is definetly a great subclass for pure, but it would still be better to just not use a weapon).
Been looking to change myself. Can your next video be about what are the nessacery tools to transition from DnD to PF? What's the best bang for the buck in PF content?
Core rule book, advanced players guide... Use tools like pathbuilder and archives of nethys. All the rules are available free (not illegally either) and supported by Paizo.
What you 'need' to run the game is technically nothing at all other than an internet connection.
There is also pf2e tools, good specially to make monsters for example
I always loved your videos for system agnostic stuff since I am a PF2 DM and seeing you switching makes me very happy. ❤
I look forward to both types of content.
GMing Pathfinder is amazing.
First, the monsters are cool, first, so you get to have fun in the fights.
And if there can be some intricate rules relations that can make you scratch your head sometimes (like stealth or some traits), outside of that, the system gives you nearly everything to support you. Most things are explained to you, with their intents, you have examples of systems and subsystems and how you can run or tweak them (ex: victory points in the GMG) you have options where they tells you how you probably should integrate them and what can break or how it could be integrated in a narrative way (ex. Alternate craft in Treasure Vault).
So yes, there are quite a lot of rules, and the couple of first sessions can be a bit overwhelming... But honestly, once you get a bit the hang of it, you quickly get a sense of the intent of the rule, and you can make a rule on the go that often is what is in the books, and if you want to homebrew, you have the tools to actually make something that doesn't break the game.
Big advice for newcommers: Begins with the Beginner's Box. It simplifies stuff, and when you finish it you're ready for the whole show, and the value of the BB is absolutely insane.
And the PF subreddit and discord are very nice, you should check it out if you need some help or guidance.
It's always nice to hear when people are willing to give PF2e a chance. I personally love the system, and IMO it's excellent for the kind of player that want meaningful options during character creation and combat. I think there's definitely a "curve of awe" when coming from 5e to 2e, as in, the first few months it's common to be completely in love with the system, and while after a while, like anything else, you'll probably be able to identify aspects that you don't quite agree with, I think it speaks a lot that I've been playing it for almost 4 years and the core system still is engaging and no overly problematic optimizations have showed up.
Honestly the only real outliers I can think of are the flickmace, electric arc cantrip, and the new shadow signet. But these are pretty minor
@@mduckernz Flickmace used to be weird, but the newest errata put it in a place that I'm fine with. I'm also fine with Shadow Signet because of the nature of how spell attack rolls scale, it's a workaround for the lack of item bonus to spell attacks, and IMO it's quite an interesting solution.
Electric Arc os definitely above curve but newer cantrips like Scatter Scree seem to be accepting that as the new ceiling for cantrips, while also offering interesting added effects.
If I were to complain about unbalanced power options they would mostly be related to some poorly thought out feats from Adventure Paths (the old Heavens thunder and the current Pin to The Spot being the worst offenders), and the introduction of some dubious item in the newest material, like the Cassidian Helmet and the Falcata. Though, the latter is specially tricky to work into a build since it's a common advanced weapon without ancestry traits.
Much respect for dropping WOTC to go with Paizo!
As someone who feels the same way and made a similar switch I love to hear this. You have a new supporter!
I’ve played many editions of D&D and Pathfinder. Pathfinder 2e is the current best d20 fantasy system imho, for reasons you’re unpacking. Your decision makes sense to me! I have no interest in 5e content but i'm happy to buy your 2e content, glad you'll be making some.
Why do D&D youtubers say they're switching to Pathfinder and then not even make that many videos about itm
I would enjoy your skits to gm system neutral and for pathfinder 2e. Thank you for being such a strong advocate to being a better gm! ;)
Any thoughts on EN World's A5e? I've not read over much of it, but what I have read feels like a middle ground between 5e and PF2.
Well I'm glad you are finding new ways to play RPG's and I just remember AD&D being a "gateway drug" so to speak so those who did not like the system, but wanted fantasy they could move to other systems.
My group has been in 5e for several years and they are close to finishing the storyline we set at the start. I'm thinking of switching to PF2e when half the group moves away to college.
Excited to hear how it went
I’m really glad you’re making the switch. I made it a month or two back. You’re one of my favorite TTRPG UA-camrs so now knowing I’ll get your content for the game I switched to makes me more excited to play.
Take a look at Owlbear, Warg, and Marilith in Pathfinder 2e.
Then take a look at them in 5e.
Regarding the Warg, I would say that limiting the AoO and finding other reactions was one of the simplest, yet most powerful way to improve the monster design in Pathfinder 2E
Welcome to a better system!
Unfortunately 95% of 5e players are not prepared to learn and try a new system. It's good to see that you are.
Looking forward to your Pathfinder 2e content!
Excellent video! Our group has a couple that still play DND but we have been PF2E for a bit. It is a solid system and great fun! Welcome aboard.
Thanks for such an excellent summary of the differences between 5E and PF2.
So...is the channel name changing to the GM Lair?
Love your content but since I switched to PF2 a year ago I have not seen many of your vids recomended, looking forward to seeing more of your stuff!
Awesome. Will follow your channel now. Welcome to a much much better game!
always exciting to see big d&d creators checking out/moving to pf2e, hope to see some banger content once you've got a good handle on the system
Thanks for the video. I agree with your more challenging game style preference. Also, I agree with your reasons to move to PF2e.
I'm still pretty new to dnd and I don't play with a lot of people. The ones I do play with still want to stick with dnd. So, I'll be staying. But, I'm glad you're still going to make content for 5e. You've been extremely helpful for me as a new DM and I really appreciate it. I'm looking forward to receiving the Lairs and Legends books.
Good luck with PF2e. I look forward to listening to your videos on it.
Will you still be "The DM Lair" or will you change your name?
If you are the DM in that game, make the choice for your players. Running pf2e is so much less work to get right, I promise you will have more fun. I can prep for a session in 20 min for pf2e and no one knows it was so low effort.
Glad to see you're fulfilling Kyle Brink's wishes of "people like me can't leave the hobby soon enough" haha.
I took full advantage of Paizo's Open Gaming sale and got both the 2e rulebook as well as the Starfinder core book. I also grabbed Dungeon Crawl Classics. Looks like a great bit of fun.
Been enjoying watching you on Rules Lawyer's videos, so I was glad to hear you are making "the switch" lol. I was ready to subscribe to your channel based on that alone, but THEN I saw Raymond Feist's "Riftwar" books on your shelf and that sealed the deal for me. Great author and great series! Look forward to watching your videos!
I’ve ran two 5E campaigns to level 20. Game balance was rarely an issue.
I could feel your pain when you talk about difficult conversations with players cheesing and trying to balance things... Only 1 in 8 players listen to the DM and accepts their points (and most the time it is because they have mastered too).
This sounds like a lot of grass is greener talk from someone still new to the system. So in the interest in balance, what do you think PF2e gets wrong Vs 5e?
Is it true that clerics have to pick specific spells for each spell slot?
It’s less approachable, a bit more intensive to homebrew, and is even more mechanics driven. I enjoy PF2e, but 5e people who don’t care about min/maxing and tactical combat and are playing a much looser more narrative version of 5e wouldn’t want Pathfinder.
People who already find 5e to have too many rules won’t like Pathfinder 2e.
It’s a great system, but isn’t going to be what a decent chunk of 5e players want.
@@dahelmang Yup. Classic Vancian magic. There’s options to make it more like 5e casting, though.
@@dahelmang
Yes, but you get more mid and high level spell slots, which means more spells to be ready with. You'd get used to it, but if it would bother you, there is a variant rule that loses a spell slot per level but makes your casting function like 5e.
@@johnathanrhoades7751 This was pretty much my impression also, it takes the crunch dial of 5e in the wrong direction where a lot of the 5e audience would like it taken back a step.
It'll take some time before my groups transition to PF2e because both games are still in early/mid campaign and we don't want to switch systems mid-campaign, but we may try some one-shots in PF2e at some point in the meantime. I'm looking forward to the transition to PF2e because the system looks so much more robust and fleshed out and the customization options are seemingly endless, compared to the rules light/incomplete D&D 5e.
I respect this decision, and I'm glad you have found a system that works out for you - I similarly feel like I do not want to sponsor WotC any further from the events earlier this year, and what information has surfaced.
Switching to PF (either 1e or 2e) has not exactly crossed my mind, though I will admit to checking their FREE set of rules online (The Archives of Nethys) when I am tackling a specific idea. They have a lot of interesting subsystems and different approaches to the same items - just today I learnt about wands in PF2E and I'm absolutely giving that a whirl.
It boils down to having used 5e long enough that I've homebrewed things that I know my players and I will enjoy at the table - such as my take on Gestalt characters for my Eberron campaign and pretty much all my monsters being personal 'upgrades' or outright new statblocks. Were I to learn another TTRPG, it'd probably be something with a different flavour such as Cyberpunk RED. I feel it's best for me not to try tackle two somewhat similar systems (rules, flavour, monsters, etc, though PF has a steadier number crunch) to avoid cognitive overload, at least as a GM.