15:37 I am reminded of Henry James' novel, The American, when the rich American received no respect in France by the French upper class and was referred to as "The Duke of California" in a mocking way. The American could have bought all of them 100 times over but he came from manufactuing soap or something. Even his name, Newman, signified New Man.
Excellent ! We see a similar thing in 4 Weddings and A Funeral - and educational glimpse into social class in Britain. When Hugues Grant was inquiring about the attractive lady played by Andie Mac Dowell. His friend says "American" in the most disdainful way! As if to say "syphilis" 😀 This American later marries a rich Scott which obviously doesn't work out. Hugues Grant also asks his scruffy friend "Are you the richest man in England?" a topic they obviously never spoke about despite being good friends. Turns out he's noble and owns a vast mansion...
One major point you should consider about the American class system is that there are two separate, competing social hierarchies. Two ladders to climb. At the top of one ladder is the traditional elite, at the top of the other is the counter-elite. What you have described here is very much true of the counter-elite. That's it's all about money. People like Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, or Oprah Winfrey fit atop this ladder. Celebrities, sports stars, tech billionaires fill the upper ranks. The middle ranks of this ladder generally work in business or tech or entertainment and fill the McMansions you spoke of. Then you have the traditional elite. These people are removed from the origin of their money by at least a few generations. Their definition of class includes education (but not "too much" education), an appreciation for the arts and traditional culture, and above all an appreciation for traditional sports and country life. Also individuals do not climb this ladder, entire families do. They are very clannish. You find these people almost exclusively East of the Mississippi, in New York, New England, and the Southeast, though some small pockets of them exist in places like Chicago or Seattle. Families like the Bushes and the Kennedys sit atop this ladder. Lower down, you find people like college professors, writers, politicians. The traditional elite paradoxically adore and abhor money. They see it as a wonderful thing to have, but a filthy disgusting thing to make, and the more you are removed from the source of your money, the higher your class. Involving yourself heavily in charity is a somewhat acceptable way to cleanse yourself of having made money as well. The counter-elites have no squeamishness about making money and don't care how new theirs is. Money can move you to the top of the counter-elite instantly. It takes generations to move up the traditional elite ladder. Each of these hierarchies looks down upon the other. The more access you gain to the social connections of one ladder, the more you lose access to the other.
Thanks so much for the clarification! The traditional elite sound like my kind of people. Where does one meet them? 😀 When on holiday in Maine we saw a Kennedy summer house. It seemed to say "we are so cultivated, we like to vacation by the sea in the middle of nowhere" But seriously, it was was good taste. Thanks again for explaining!
I wanted to add that it's possible the very thing you speak about is illustrated in the film Being There (with Peter Sellers) The higher American classes are confused at this old-money type character they believe to be very important.
I’m an American living in France permanently (almost 7 years) and what I admire greatly in the French is that everyone initially engages with respect-the “bonjour effect.” There is a certain formality and politeness that I find very endearing, and it also makes it very easy to feel comfortable in any social situation, from going to the bakery to hobnobbing at a dinner party. It does take a bit longer to make friends and extroverted Americans might feel ill-treated if they don’t respect the customs, but I love living here and feel more at home and accepted than anywhere else.
Ah yes bonjour sounds a bit like as "good day" with a little tilt of the hat! They're trying to introduce "tu" much more in social situations aren't they? Anmericans can be too informal such as being called "buddy" by tradesmen. I always want to say "You can also call me Sir if you like" In the UK we have "mate" but the connotation is different.I'm glad you are enjoying France. Merci !
Fully agree. I was brought up in that "bonjour" manner (Irish born parents). I was raised in relative poverty and was easily able to have long conversations with some rich (and some famous) New Yorkers that I met. We talked substance, not trivia including the realities of living in their class bubble. One aunt from rural Ireland ended up running the parties for the intellectual, creative and artistic elite of NYC and became a trusted confidant of a number of them. Same thing, raised in a "Bonjor" social tradition. Good manners mattered. In fact thatr aunt policed the behavior of the guests and expellled or instructed the rude in how to behave. She really did njot csare if she gotv fired as a result. Of course that is one of the reasons her clients hired her, pasid a lot of monrey,, and gove her valuable antiques as gifts.
@@ouicommunicate Right on. On my first visit back to the U.S. a few years ago, I was actually shocked by the casual and sudden familiarity by strangers, and that “buddy” business has always seemed rather disrespectful. Even at my most Americanness, I never called anyone “buddy,” probably because I never heard my father use it growing up. Of course, now it’s “dude” everywhere.
That reflects my 8yr in France experience. Add to that solidarity in groups. People look out for each other. I feel at home and accepted like I never did in NZ.
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My intro to the UK class system: I worked on a John Lewis truck for a day in Oct 1973 delivering appliances with Irish and Scottish mates. The poorest areas gave the best tips. I also hitchhiked all over the England and Scotland, part of the time with a working class guy from North England who got us jobs in an all night bakery throwing dough in tins. Working class humor: a woman in Rochdale I spent the night with said using condoms was like washing your feet with your socks on. In 1985 and 1986 I learned French in Montpellier and Villefranche while I was a grad student in history at UCLA. I'd already lived in Lisbon in the Carnation Revolution summer of 1974, in Seville, Madrid and Barcelona in 1976 and 1980-81, learning Spanish and Catalan. In the eyes of the French, as a NYer living in LA, I was elite by definition, though financially not at all. I'd studied French history (revolutions, les Communards, Front Populaire, Leon Blum, Vichy, occupation, liberation, Parti Communiste, read Les Temps on microfilm from 1934-47) and learned French with Raymond Devos (L'homme aui fait la valise, il y a des gents bizarres dans les train et dans les gares and Raymond Aron). In Villefranche I was adopted by two married French sisters from Marseilles, who'd grown up in Algiers, daughters of a colonel in the French army. Politically they were generation soixantehuitardes, the exact opposite of their father. One was married to a Jewish doctor. Somehow similar people find each other, however unintentionally.
As an English person who lived in France for a few years (with from the start very good French) I would support your view about the pride in being working class in England and the many aspects of culture that that feeds into. Clubs, bingo, football, speech patterns, food choices etc. There is not a major preoccupation with class progression, with "getting rich", or with losing one's working class speech patterns. I suspect that in France it is far more common for working people to identify as middle class and take on their characteristics. You hit the nail on the head there. My favourite anecdote- my hairdresser on hearing I was returning to England asked me what I would miss about France. I made the honest but admittedly humourous response "the coffee". The hairdressers creased up in laughter; "only an English person could say that. You are Mr Bean!" Of course the only acceptable response for a French person would be to refer to the cultural heritage, arts etc.
Thank you! I'll never forget my 60 year cousin exclaim with great joy "I'm a chav!" His elderly mum quickly put an end to those drams "No you're not you silly bugger" I love that anecdote! "I just like yer coffee, mate" 😀 Poor hairdresser.
We don't realise it's something special but the French can often be struck by a 'blague Britannique' as being very different but also delightful compared to French humour.
An excellent discussion of class consciousness in different social systems. I have personally known members of the European nobility who went around in torn clothing digging in the garden, very reminiscent of P.G. Wodehouse's Lord Emsworth. Since they set the standard of behavior, they are completely comfortable doing whatever they like in any circumstance without a second thought. In my experience the lack of concern with what others might think is one outstanding characteristic that is not found in the U.S. in any class.
Speaking from personal experience as an English-Canadian person (read, American/North American) having lived in semi-rural France for the past 10 years, I totally agree with your viewpoint of class differences and the associated attitudes between the French and the Americans. Naively, what shocked me when I settled here was how rigid the class system has remained in France, particularly after the French Revolution, which was supposedly to have destroyed that notion of class inequality, never mind the fact that France is a Socialist country (although becoming less so these last couple decades). I even learned from a friend (in his late 40s), who was born into the Bourgeoisie, that he and his siblings were taught English so that they could speak in that language whenever the ‘help’ were around, so as to not be understood by them especially when discussing ‘sensitive’ subjects. Due to this practice among the upper French classes, if a French person is fluent in English, it automatically places them into the Bourgeois class, in the minds of the French people. I feel, however, this has become less of a status marker among the younger generations now that they have full access to learning English via the Internet and inexpensive travel options.
Thanks for sharing! France is an ambiguous case indeed. They are religiously neutral but with a catholic bias that is seen in the public holidays and other traditions. They've done away with the nobles but still have them. I also feel that English has remained the concern of few. In political positions or diplomacy we might hear a French person with a rarish B2/C1 level but I feel we could easily state that over 80% of France is A2 level in English at the most. Lack of teachers, static teaching methods...are just a few of the reasons alongside the fact that a French person is culturally monolingual. "We accept English but don't want it near our houses, in our cities or in our language" Bourgeois is also interesting. Not to be confused with "petit bouregois" 😀or "haute bourgeoisie" 😀 it seems to have moved away from riches coming from trade or factories. They remain a largely invisible class, don't they? Sort of like, people know they exist but don't talk about them. I'd love to know what your friend thinks of bourgeoisie in modern France in terms of numbers, interests etc. Merci !
@ My friend’s family belongs to the “haute bourgeoisie” but it is safe to say, as you’ve pointed out, their riches have near evaporated and it’s only their airs and graces that remain. He, as an adult, consciously moved away from their elitist attitudes, particularly when he openly announced his homosexuality, which is still frowned upon, yet exists regardless of class (perhaps it was more the fact that he was considered gauche for his open proclamation). In any case, when he does speak of his family, they appear to be living in the now-faded golden era of days gone by, what we might call ‘gentille poverty’ or ‘keeping up appearances’. Of course, I can only speak about my friend’s family, but it would seem to be the general case among this invisible class, as you rightly call them.
As an American traveller, this is enlightening. As a traveller, I always see the BEST in the people of UK, or France. I am accustomed to that, not realizing that there are definite “ class” differences. Whenever I encounter class differences, its always from a black and white film.
Thanks ! Yes that's the thing when we travel. We have our rose tainted glasses on and end up speaking to whomever. We don't even realize we might be doing down a dead end street with our new acquaintances simply cause we can't evaluate them properly.
Interesting, and very complex subject you have chosen there. I moved to Australia from Scotland, and I immediately felt I had gone up a notch on the social ladder without really doing much. The class system in Australia, which some would argue doesn't exist, is very subtle; until you mention old or new money!
I needed this video but I find that French people in general are very respectful and kind to everyone at least in the outskirts of Paris and the Northern part of France.
Very interesting discussion. I'm American. My husband and I are planning to settle in France when we retire in a couple of years. One of the characteristics of the French that I have always liked is that they do not look at having wealth as something that makes one interesting. When Americans are considering a relocation to a European country, I think it's not only essential to learn the language, but also to really study the sociology and culture of that country. Nouveau riche exists ad nauseam in the U.S., where one is more likely to first ask your occupation than to be curious about your likes, interests, or the last book you read.
I agree wholeheartedly ! We had a carpenter here in the USA who told me just about the cost of everything he had: the car, the house, how much he made a day...But I'd also say that the "get up and go" attitude in the USA is lacking in many countries of Europe because of the social safety net and because of a certain cultural tradition. My wife and I bumped into some people she knew in a supermarket and they quickly questioned me about my activities. i.e are you tutoring or teaching in a school? I walked away with the disagreeable impression they were doing some mental maths calculations. True also, that Americans (and others) should know about the sociology of their new country. It's not because we can go there physically that we can go there socially !
@@ouicommunicate The supermarket scenario you experienced is all too common. Maybe it's because I'm older now, but I find the shallowness of that behavior so disappointing. Very interesting point you mentioned about the American "get up and go" attitude lacking a bit in Europe due to social and cultural influences. I suppose we are all a product of our environment. Though not Europe, Australia has been home to our daughter for the past 16 years, and she has made similar observations. It's really a fascinating topic!
As a native Californian who has traveled extensively in Europe (and who 16:49 lived briefly in Germany decades ago), let me add another invasive (and highly inappropriate) habit found typically in conservative US regions: Asking someone you have just met "what church they attend"!
@ouicommunicate Are you serious??? (On the list of very inappropriate questions my fellow Americans ask people they've just met, I rank the "church inquiry" rather high.)
Haha! Well, he'd be foolish not to try to make the best of his fame. But yes, I remember watching his very first lectures that students were filming in his class and thinking"has the lecture started yet?"
I’m American from New England originally. When somebody has a lot of money, but they’re not posh as you say, we would call them Nouveau Riche. Our social class system is not without criticism, but it is far more flexible than it is in Europe. Particularly the United Kingdom at least that’s my impression.
This gets US "class" quite wrong. An example being "Mc Mansions" which are not considered "posh" or "upper class" in the US at all - they're thought of as (big, quite tasteless) suburban homes for the slightly more affluent suburbanites. Those "well-off" suburbanites can be less well-off monetarily than most urban/city coastal expensive metro dwellers in small 2 bedroom flats. Small condominium apartments in big coastal cities can be hugely more expensive than large Mc Mansions in the suburbs of those cities. And certainly, money IS part of the US "class" culture - but just as important is level of education, and ones profession - A Harvard educated adjunct college professor in Manhattan making less than 100K IS considered more elite/higher class than a high school graduate car dealership owner, living in a suburban midwestern Mc Mansion, who brings in $1m a year. There's much more nuance than just "money".
Thanks for clarifying! This got me thinking that in Europe there's no phrase along the lines of "makes.... /year" as a way to categorize people. It wouldn't be a reference that people understand. And of course there's more intricacies than just money. It is a very populated and complex country.
@@ouicommunicate I was using "makes a year" to illustrate how money isn't necessarily the only factor in class in the US. People in the US don't discuss their salaries (outside of close family, or their financial consultant).
Thème intéressant et très bien analysé, chapeau, p'tit conseil qu'on a du te donner mille fois, prends soin de la lumière dans tes prochaines vidéos, hugses 😉
Haha! Oui, mais voyez-vous les gens sont tellement abasourdis par mon savoir qu'ils en oublient les details ethetiques !😃 Mais serieusement, je n'ai jamais compris comment les autres parviennent a avoir un son et images pro. Ca me depasse !
As an American, I ask about a person's job/employment as a jumping-off point for further conversation, not as a predictor of wealth. What people have chosen to do as their life's work is endlessly interesting. Americans certainly "worship" money, especially many of the "nouveau riche" but there are many, many Americans who have financial means and feel it is gauche to flaunt it. "Yankee's" in New England are one such group. They drive 20-year-old cars (always a high-quality car, like a Volvo, that they bought new and will drive until it is run into the ground,) and wear well-constructed, high-quality clothes (that they've owned for years and patch as needed.) They may mention how much something costs, but only if it was a great find or they got an incredible deal (in other words, flaunting how little they paid for it.) Overall, I think social boundaries are more permeable in the US. At the same time, there are many subtleties here, and abroad, that influence social interactions.
Thank you ! For the record, I love many things about America - brilliant country ! 😀 I didn't know about the Yankees and since I'm in New England I will have to inquire. And yes, social boundaries are much more permeable which in turn is so much better for business (which I find impossible in Europe) In Europe, we assume much more that an economic condition is once and forever. But because of the "rags to riches" narrative, the guy selling buttons in the street might be the CEO of a business in 3 years. I think people approach each other as such here perhaps. Around 30 years ago I made my first trip to New York and was struck how Wall Street types ate at the hot dog vendor in the street. This wouldn't happen in Europe. And in this I see more social fluidity in the USA. Thanks for your comment!
One thing I hate about talking with Americans is how they always ask "what do you do?" When I answer that Im a construction worker, they tend to look down on me and are not interested in further conversation. The other class question is " Do you own your home?'" They never learn that Ive been to more than 60 countries, and speak 3 languages. Here in Portugal, people rarely ask what one does for a living. I find it so refreshing. We are more than work. If I was rich enough, growing up in the US, I might have been able to afford University and been a much more boring person with a proper job.
Welcome to New England. It has changed a bit over the last 50 years since I was a child, but my old money WASP training still gets me through many doors. It's very quiet, the classism here, but it does operate. I was astonished when I moved elsewhere in the country: the class behaviors I was taught didn't work in Seattle, and in Chicago when I called myself a WASP, it stopped conversation. No one had ever heard a person describe themselves that way. There, it was only an insult.
This is one of the few comments that matches my 62 years of experience all over the US. However, your statement that Americans worship money is a gross generalization. I have no trouble meeting and befriending lots of Americans who shun consumerism. Also, in my experience people are a lot less class-conscious in places like the Midwest and many western states than, say, New Orleans (where I grew up)…In fact, the only generalization about the US that I agree with is that you can say almost anything about America, and it will be true. If you have a strong confirmation bias, you can always find examples compatible with your beliefs while you ignore countless examples that contradict your prejudices. (I have lived in 6 states + DC, from Minnesota to New Mexico, from Maryland to Utah, and I’m married to a Texan). I think the geographical mobility of Americans makes the class system more tenuous, harder to enforce.
@@matthewmccarthy2406I don’t know. There are snobs everywhere. I think most people admire those who have practical skills. Anyway, come back! We desperately need skilled construction workers!
I appreciate this, Chris. In my book & video "Destiny Deems" I mention my moving abroad and being informed what a title might not mean. As a Californian living in Europe and the Middle East, I recognized my cultural adolescence. I remain a perpetual student.
Ok, I know nothing about any of this… it’s all a fascinating first for me! And I’ve subscribed being that I’ve begun to learn some French using the Michell Thomas method. Glad to be aboard! Salute!
I know Chris likes to talk and I've got a ton and one things to do , so I decided to read the comments first and onto the video itself in a bit ; but it certainly sounds like this one has generated some interesting debate from different angles.
I'm French but I've lived in the three "worlds". I fully agree with you. You raise the relationship social class / cultural class, which is less obvious in America where people can be rich socially but poor culturally (Trump is a perfect example) and vice versa. In the UK, each class has its own strong culture. In France, the "classes populaires" ('a more general term than "clase ouvrière") tend to adopt middle class attitudes which value education and intellectual culture more than money as such.
Actually, for the video I meant to say "classes laborieuses" but used classes ouvrieres - in the context of La lutte des Classes which is just as good I suppose! It serves its purpose. 😃 Europe has the perverse effect on people to not look for wealth. But then you have the higher-ups (haute bourgeoisie) who probably smile in the shadows and say "that's right, you all keep believing that money is no good" Some say that the filet de securite sociale was originally invented to prevent revolutions. Why risk anything if you can be comfortable doing nothing?
@@ouicommunicate I agree! N.B. "Classes laborieuses" is a bit old-fashioned nowadays with the decine of the communist party. "Classes populaires" is the very common term used by sociologists and opinion polls. Merci pour votre réaction.
As an American who has lived in France, I had a hard time considering some people higher class than others. I also had to be warned to be very careful to use the most formal language possible to the head of the school I worked at. Having a Ph.D. in French comes in very handy in such situations ;)
Yes, it's funny isn't it? I keep telling my better half "you don't know it but I'm actually very posh" To which she answers "Ok, but that makes your brother posher than you then since he has a PhD" 😄 If we go by education, it makes it true!
An interesting talk on a subject seldom discussed. As a French-speaking American recently settled in France, I see American society a little more simply than you have laid out. Basically, there are two separate silos with some overlap: the well-educated and the well-off. The well-educated share much with their French counterparts, including intellectualism, leftish politics, and discretion with respect to money. For instance, none of my American friends would ever discuss their own compensation or that of any friend, nor would they boast of any expenditure. We view celebrities generally as coarse, whatever their wealth. Despite that we have worked diligently to achieve financial security, which is more necessary since Americans lack the social state, we consider whatever financial and social success we have reached to have been due largely to accidents of birth and circumstance. Like other Americans though, we do immediately query new acquaintances on profession, which after all does imply income, in the same way that the French, while never inquiring after either profession or income, will want to know in which arrondissement you happen to reside. An interesting point is that the French are the only foreigners with an innate capacity to intimidate Americans, perhaps because if we studied any language at all in our school days it would have been French and that with scant success. Basically, Americans look down on all other nationalities either because of some stereotype or insufficient standard of living.
Merci ! Yes, fortunately for my ego I never claim to be absolutely right in anything! 😀 Let this be a free space for discussion. Thanks for the comment!
I think there are alsop differences related to age/generation that are becoming more revealed in the american class system. Some issues are more and less important depending on when you were born. I'm not a historian or a sociologist, but america is so large and complex, and is constituted of so many different influences, strains, and traditions...it can be bewildering. Add age-difference to the mix and each of the differences becomes even more nuanced.
What an interesting video. So what exactly does get you respect from the middle/upper classes. I am assuming that it is more about being well read, culturally aware of the arts, music etc?
Thank you.It's hard to know what gets respect. I'm better at saying what doesn't get respect! 🙂 But yes, generally a receptive mind for culture would be a good starting point.
Can you explain, in terms of social class, the clash between soccer fans of Lyon and Paris Saint-Germain in May of 2024 when buses of fans of both teams found themselves at the same highway peage? That was when buses were burned.
Burning vehicles is a custom in France to do in place of murder or rendering bodily injury. The justly aggrieved rioters from the banlieus, immigrant poor suburbs, burned cars. They did not attack people.
I’m an American currently learning French. I think France is beautiful, my hesitation of moving to France would be the bureaucracy!!! As an American i think it would drive me nuts!
Ooooh ! Please allow me to interject! 😀 In actual fact, what distinguishes the USA from Europe is that in Europe there's an actual conversation with the government. You can go in person to a" mairie" or equivalent and speak to a human being who represents the State. In the USA, it's all done through forms and websites. You can't speak to State representatives. In this, the State is a lot more elusive in the USA. In Europe, I can go in person with my wife and say "Hi, we wish to live here. Can you give us the paperwork?" Not so in the USA! . There is absolutely no direct conversation with the government. Am I wrong? (If I am I'll do you a deal on my French classes )😀
@@ouicommunicate There is an American bureaucracy and it's unintelligible to a French used to dealing with French bureaucracy! I'm French and spent a full year in California in the early 1980's. I needed a document from the IRS to be exempt from federal US taxes. It was pre-internet, so I had to drive some 20 miles to the nearest IRS office. The employee categorically refused to establish this document, claiming I owed $2000 in taxes. I did not argue (which would be the French way!) but asked to be handled the book with the official rules. The employee reluctantly agreed adding that she was the one who knew better. I quickly found the text of the fiscal agreement between France and the USA and the precise article stating that I did not have to pay federal taxes. I showed it to the employee whose answer was "you're right" and handled me the document I needed. When asking an American colleague why that employee was incompetent, his answer baffled me: he said that if she were competent, she would not have been a civil servant...
@@ouicommunicate In France, you say "Hi (Bonjour is better!), we wish to live here. Can you please help us with all the paperwork?" It shows that person that you value her competence and, in a sense, makes her feel responsible for you. It can be very effective! And never take a "no" for a final answer!
Oooh ! I don't quite know! 😀 I'm always interested when it is the case. And I often seem more interested in people's names than the American person. I met a Pflugbeil here in America - which means plow axe in Danish. The person was quite nonplussed when I pointed it out. And they pronounced it "plug-beel" 😃
I met quite a lot of French people living in Cambridge (and think there are even more in London, obviously). They were all educated at university level (some had PhDs) or started degrees there, had fluent English, and many mixed in European circles, with a few in more English circles (hippie/creatives). My view of the French in UK was that they seemed a bit depressed, compared to other Europeans. I didn't quite figure out why this is, but know that the English can be very dismissive and mocking of the French.
Really? That's so interesting. I always thought that it was a hard transition for a French person to fit in the UK. Academia doesn't work in the same way and neither does the social structure or language. Thanks for sharing!
The UK did not widely experience the effects of the Enlightenment nor the French Revolution. Thus, the social system disconnect compared with other European nations. While living in Paris, I attended the Anglican Cathedral and Masonic lodge meetings. I met many social equals through those (very regular) activities. No one ever asked what I did for a living - nor did I ever ask them.
So true. In Europe I would never ask anyone what they do. It's none of my business and doesn't change anything about the individual I have in front of me.
That is rubbish. The Scottish Enlightenment was one of the prime movers of the wider Enlightenment movement, and industrialisation, along with many of the key technological innovations kicked off in the UK. It is perhaps a French conceit, because of the purifying effect of the French revolution, and the high esteem with which thinkers like Voltaire are held, and the centrality of buildings like the Pantheon in Parisian culture, that the bigger picture is not grasped, and the different trajectory of English history and intellectual/political development is sidelined, because the Enlightenment had a less radical effect on the UK's ruling structure and society, and it is Scotland where the Enlightenment is most vigorously celebrated, rather than London. However, London is super-modern in some respects (think of the City of London's highrises and its world city status in terms of diversity), alongside all its other layers, whereas Paris retains more of a 19th century feel and is a French capital where French culture is celebrated over and above being anything else.
That is rubbish. The Scottish Enlightenment was one of the prime movers of the wider Enlightenment movement, and industrialisation, along with many of the key technological innovations, kicked off in the UK. It is perhaps a French conceit, because of the purifying effect of the French revolution, and the high esteem with which thinkers like Voltaire are held, and the centrality of buildings like the Pantheon in Parisian culture, that the bigger picture is not grasped, and the different trajectory of British history and intellectual/political development is sidelined, because the Enlightenment had a less radical effect on the UK's ruling structure and society, and it is Scotland where the Enlightenment is most vigorously celebrated, rather than London. However, London is super-modern in some respects (think of the City of London's highrises and its world city status in terms of diversity), alongside all its other layers, whereas Paris retains more of a 19th century feel and is a French capital where French culture is celebrated over and above being anything else.
@ouicommunicate For the upper class, of course. A few educational benefits trickled down to the masses. The Church of England has gradually lost its immense clout. But... the medieval class system still persists - and is soul crushing for the general population. Not so much in the agricultural sector anymore, but definitely in dead-end jobs.
I think that the USA is too large and complex to make blanket statements about class. Old money vs. new money matters more in some places but not at all in others. Family lineage and the depth to which someone is steeped in a community matters in some places but not others. Who you are vs. what you have matters in some places but not in others. There are places that value intellect while others that only value money. Ostentatious display of wealth is seen as either a positive or a negative depending on where you are, I'd also say that most people living in McMansions aren't sending their kids to horse riding lessons. They are more likely to be Target and Walmart shoppers who are living on the edge of their salaries. Now, of course, all of this actually depends on where one is in the United States. What's a McMansion is one place isn't considered the same in another. A "large" house isn't the same sort of "trophy" in less expensive places where they are more commonly found, while they are a much more substantial trophy for a Bay Area Californian. I've lived on both the East Coast, West Coast, Texas, and South Florida. The class structure in each of them is substantially different from the others.
Thank you ! And definitely, yes. When we look at the actual living habits of owner of Mc Mansions it doesn't much differ from a coal miner from the 1800s. Get up at dawn, work, come back. As you say. most likely on the edge of their salaries. These are not people who own businesses or live off their investments most often. You can tell simply by the fact that they very often mow their own lawn, among other things.
Thanks for this. I have been curious about how different cultures translate. I feel that Europe has a more old money culture, America is EXTREMLY new money. Recently there has been an obsession with Billionaires in popular culture In the US so it's about to get worse. I personally like high culture, but I don't have much of an outlet in the Americas (I don't live in the US), so I am looking forward to visiting Europe to be able to enjoy that type of life even for a little bit. The arts, beautiful architecture, proper etiquette, fine dining, proper grooming etc. are mostly frowned upon in the Americas; one basically needs to find a secret community that embodies these values and find a way to keep social media out. UA-camrs are hunting out these places to expose and ridicule and eventually it falls apart. There is an 'eat the rich' mentality that is taking hold, so anything that the masses associate with being rich is being attacked. It is unfortunate, but this is how it is right now, IMO.
Thanks for the comment! Yes, I noticed that also. Kids adore Elon Musk without quite knowing why. (Personally I'm still waiting for hm to say any brainy thing) But Bernard Arnault is not, for reasons unknown. I find America's way of doing things advantageous. In Europe very often, when a person is the owner of a business they endorse a persona in which they act superior. They become "le patron" and look down on people, as if they'd made it to a new social class. It's very hard to phone up these businesses and propose your services - even if they are guaranteed to work. Social mobility is a lot harder in economic terms.
Pourquoi vous soumettez-vous aux prétentions des États-Unis d'Amérique d'être, dans le sens d'ÊTRE, le continent américain ? Pour le reste, je suis plutôt d'accord.
Ah Ok ! je me suis mal exprime. Je pense qu'en Europe on utilise a tort la notion d'Etat Nation pour parler de l'Amerique mais quand on y vit on voit qu'il y a une telle variete entre les etats que ce serait comme dire que l'Afrique est un pays. On dit "les Americains font ceci ou ca" mais c'est presque un non-sens lexical. Voila mon idee!
I tried living in Normandy and I tried learning French, but it seemed to me, that everything in France is judged by it's Frenchness. what I mean is: French good ,Foreign bad. I dont look French, so I felt I would never be accepted there. My friend is Half French, has lived there for decades now and they still treat her like a foreigner because she grew up in London. Why are there no Arab people owning farms in Normandy? It would seem to me a much better life than the suburbs or Paris. But somehow it seems it is not allowed.
I will say that the French are very French... but perhaps we can say that about all nations. The challenge France is finding is finding a balance between a traditional Nation State with one language and one culture, while at the same time accommodating different religions and cultures. I think France understands the fragile balance between preserving and evolving. Too much too soon would disrupt something long established.
@@ouicommunicate I do respect the French for preserving and valuing their culture. And I admire the fact that they get out and protest what they dont like and want to change. American Pop culture seems to bulldoze everything in it's path. I think we all need to resit this because its not good for people, the planet, or mental health. But they basically own the internet and mass media in general. Hopefully people will be more decerning and value independence more in future.
nice exposé but there are two points which i find slightly inaccurate as a french person : the french working class still exists, it did not go away from the sixties on, it's class consciousness that has shrinked, as a result of the structuration of industrial labor that has evolved towards more "liberalisation" (factories closing, economy progressing into more services, with a part of the industrial workers becoming call-center employees, amazon plant workers and bike-delivery self-entrepreneurs), making workers more fragmented in their own cultures and lifestyles - and the other massive culprit is the ruin of the organisations which used to build class consciousness : the communist party proving it was little else than a puppet of moscow (and then as the ussr collapsed, everyone looked at media spreading the "end of history" narrative claiming capitalism had indeed no alternative, then "clash of civilisations" spreading fear against the muslim community), the unions degenerating into petty bourgeoisie careerist tools, the socialist turning neoliberal, and the generally left-leaning part of government jobs (such as many school and health system employees) gulping down socialist "normal political stances" (lies and postures hiding incompetence) and becoming helpless, only realising what was happening when it was already too late. secondly I think the valorization of culture in france, with upper-class people respecting well-cultured peopled rather than new money should not be overstated. sure, it did use to be like this at some point, but from the 60s onwards, examples of upper-class people making room for business-first and profit-only mentality have steadily multiplied, and nowadays it is at an all-time high : just look at our bourgeoisie, or even their class of puppets that get elected, and show me one intellectual that is regarded as such by the academic world : you will find none. french upper classes have been actively renouncing intellectual life, because the more intellectual it gets, the harder it is to maintain the lies they have to keep feeding the masses, and more importantly : french economy has been shifting to a rift between a few "traditional" high-end industries such as fashion and the more upper class sectors of tourism and all the rest, the vast majority has been increasingly copying american economy, which explains that the main economic narrative in contemporary france is profoundly similar to that of the USA, and that our culture as a whole and even our very own french political debates are growing staggeringly close to uncle sam's.
Merci ! In my defense I didn't set out to cover everything - just the broader points. My purpose was to show that social classes don't match up well. Not to propose a study of each social class. Yes, the French working class exists but it isn't a genetic thing like it is in the UK. And the French are much closer to the middle class, and can aim to get there after a course at university. Social mobility is possible. I completely agree with you that standards have fallen in France. The intellectual and artistic glory of France is well behind them. (Ca commence a remonter que la France a fait parler d'elle sur la scene mondiale. La litterature, les atrs, la philosophie...ca fait tout doucement un siecle. Peut etre pas, allez, Michel Foucault au 20e! Mais sinon...) I am shocked to see a lack of understanding from younger journalists in matters "on parle professionnellement/on parle avec ses potes" - les barrieres ne semblent pas toujours etre bien comprises. Recently I saw an exchange between Melanchon and Zemour (a public debate)...it was "ras des paquerettes" Debat de bistrot. Nothing to do with the maniere d'etre of a Mitterand or Chirac. So I entirely believe you that the intellectualism of yesterday is but a memory.
Hmm...that's a tricky one 😀 Have we established that Posh Spice was indeed posh? Because she could very well be posh within working class standards. That's a sub-category in itself 😀 It seems a case for a Professor of Poshness from a reputable university. (If I were to guess, I'd say "nouveau riche". Definitely not posh in the French sense!)
@@ouicommunicate Worth looking for the clip from a documentary on the Beckhams where she is telling the interviewer that she was “working class, really” and he pops his head round the door and says “Oh yeah? What car did your dad drive?” Victoria “That’s not the point, is it?” David “Just tell him what model of car your dad took you to school in.” Victoria “It was a Rolls-Royce, but he didn’t have it long and it wasn’t new.” David “Thank you.”
Most Americans consider it rude to brag about how much you make, how much you paid for something. Even a lot of the people who voted for Trump did so despite the fact they think he is a conceited blowhard. Nouveau riche is a derogatory term in the US. I live in area with miles and miles of McMansions, and 95% of those kids go to public schools. (I don’t care for the McMansion-style myself, but I understand why some people do). The US is a very big and diverse country with countless subcultures and classes. I think you need to get out more.
Well, I don't know about getting out more. This video don't tell "truths" in an exhaustive way- it just says watch out things don't work the same way between all countries. I know that America is diverse, which is why I don't even consider it a country in the European sense. There are indeed many subcultures.
@ I think my comment was rather snippy, and I didn’t mean for it to be that way. I get a bit frustrated with generalizations about the US that are stated as universal facts, when they are often 180 degrees different than my experiences. I need to chill out a little. Thank you for your video and your insights.
in the usa, in middle to upper middle class areas outside of city centers, ppl send their kids to public schools. surely you've heard of "good schools in this area"? this is particularly true in the suburbs. in the cities, public schools are usually best avoided so the same parents will send their children to private.
I am a French living in the US. The video is good and on point, but I believe that it misses two aspects significant on both sides: - city vs. countryside. - regional class. The "horizontal" aspect briefly listed for the UK. The class organization is different between city and countryside, both in France and the US. What is more specific to France is the "residence secondaire" pseudo-class, i.e. a temporary status bestowed to those from the city who move to their country home for the weekend. That concept barely exists on the west coast of the US, except around a handful of places, typically around national parks or ski stations. The US upper middle class seems to live in low density suburbs and to own much less secondary home. It might not be true for New Yorkers, but then many Americans see them as foreigners anyway. 🥴 The regional classes are significant in both countries, but at different degrees. If the rest of the US looks suspiciously at New Yorkers, most French look at Parisiens with contempt, anger and disdain (the "parigots" insult) Being from a small town or a larger city also brings different attitudes. What I was surprised in the US is that even small towns (villages) look (and people eat) like suburbs, when the lifestyles are quite different in France. A French will immediately identify someone's origine based on the accent, and this will color how the conversation goes. The US have this too. Californians are not always treated the same as others, there is a subtle mix of envy and irritation. I know, I live in California and got some comments when traveling out of state.. 🙄 There are other states with marked "prejudice" as well: Texas, Florida, Minnesota (more of a positive prejudice..), New Englanders, etc. You just have to learn these stereotypes.
Merci ! Indeed I left a ton out of it - just a quick guide. In my opinion, the layers are smaller between French people than they every will be in the UK. It's like comparing a wafer and a skyscraper. A UK politician speaks like no one anyone has ever met in Britain. Jacob Reese-Moggs, Boris Johnson, Starmer, John Bercow... (orrrdahh!) But in France and Belgium, politicians don't speak very differently from people off the street. So in that I don't think the vertical element is a factor. (And I m not talking about sounding cultivated or using brainy words) US Presidents similarly speak like the man off the street. There's no noticeable difference in level of culture. I'd have to ask around about the bias towards certain states between Americans. We all know about the Midwest but I'm not sure about any attitude towards Californians. Where it gets really noticeable is between drivers from different States on the motorway ! They all think people from outside the State are the worst drivers ! Anyway, thanks for adding to this video ! 😀
@@ouicommunicate driving: I remember going to Boston first, and freeway traffic was incredibly calme and steady. When I came to California a few years later, I joked that Californians fully respect speed limits: nobody is _below_.. Californian's (bad) way of driving was a lecture given to me by a cop on Big Island, Hawaii..
Regional accents or origins do not mark you in the USA. It's a minor thing, very superficial and no one holds it for or against you. Being from Cali can mean very different things depending on a variety of variables as is true for any state or region. What you detected was nothing. As soon as you get to know someone, most of les petits préjugés disparaissent.
Americans treat everyone the same. I don’t feel inferior to a European with a lot of money, and I don’t feel superior to a European with little money. I treat them all with respect.
Haha ! That's true, Americans don't like to be posh. On the other hand, they don't have that Medieval background. I appreciate the fact that every person is your equal in the USA. Easier for business for example, (maybe the topic for another video?) where trying to get through to the higher levels of management in a business in virtually impossible. They'll turn their nose up at you because they will consider you are not on their level. I've literally given up trying to do business with Europeans.
England based on a Medieval economic system?? Do you know what you are talking about at all? England has been the first capitalist country in the world! There's absolutely nothing "medieval" about our economy, unfortunately.
With respect, did you listen to the video? It was about the medieval act of charging to use the Royals' land in Cornwall and Devon. It seems scary that you believe there's a possibility that a person on earth exists who would call the UK economy "medieval".
Of course, the USA is a country that spans a continent. Americans do not think about poshness. Wealth is the determiner but it's not really about class per se. We don't think this way. We believe in equality. Homeless do exist all over in Europe, I have seen them everywhere I have gone. Europeans in general still have a medieval mindset regarding wealth and its creation. They think the pie is fixed and anyone with money took it from someone else or gained it in a underhanded way. Americans do not regard people with money as intellectual or superior save in the realm of wealth. Knowledge, character, skill(s) are all highly valued regardless.
Yes, I love that about Americans. When they complain about inequality, I always think to myself "you should see Europe. Over there you have even less of a chance. Free entreprise and creativity are rare in the field of business. Just today I phoned up 10 local American businesses to propose my French classes, I got through to the manager each time. In Europe, they will not even entertain a discussion because they will see you as a beggar instead of a person who might make their own business better. It's easier to flourish together in the USA. Of course homelessness exists - just go to any European train station to see it.
15:37 I am reminded of Henry James' novel, The American, when the rich American received no respect in France by the French upper class and was referred to as "The Duke of California" in a mocking way. The American could have bought all of them 100 times over but he came from manufactuing soap or something. Even his name, Newman, signified New Man.
Excellent ! We see a similar thing in 4 Weddings and A Funeral - and educational glimpse into social class in Britain. When Hugues Grant was inquiring about the attractive lady played by Andie Mac Dowell. His friend says "American" in the most disdainful way! As if to say "syphilis" 😀 This American later marries a rich Scott which obviously doesn't work out. Hugues Grant also asks his scruffy friend "Are you the richest man in England?" a topic they obviously never spoke about despite being good friends. Turns out he's noble and owns a vast mansion...
One major point you should consider about the American class system is that there are two separate, competing social hierarchies. Two ladders to climb. At the top of one ladder is the traditional elite, at the top of the other is the counter-elite.
What you have described here is very much true of the counter-elite. That's it's all about money. People like Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, or Oprah Winfrey fit atop this ladder. Celebrities, sports stars, tech billionaires fill the upper ranks. The middle ranks of this ladder generally work in business or tech or entertainment and fill the McMansions you spoke of.
Then you have the traditional elite. These people are removed from the origin of their money by at least a few generations. Their definition of class includes education (but not "too much" education), an appreciation for the arts and traditional culture, and above all an appreciation for traditional sports and country life. Also individuals do not climb this ladder, entire families do. They are very clannish. You find these people almost exclusively East of the Mississippi, in New York, New England, and the Southeast, though some small pockets of them exist in places like Chicago or Seattle. Families like the Bushes and the Kennedys sit atop this ladder. Lower down, you find people like college professors, writers, politicians. The traditional elite paradoxically adore and abhor money. They see it as a wonderful thing to have, but a filthy disgusting thing to make, and the more you are removed from the source of your money, the higher your class. Involving yourself heavily in charity is a somewhat acceptable way to cleanse yourself of having made money as well.
The counter-elites have no squeamishness about making money and don't care how new theirs is. Money can move you to the top of the counter-elite instantly. It takes generations to move up the traditional elite ladder.
Each of these hierarchies looks down upon the other. The more access you gain to the social connections of one ladder, the more you lose access to the other.
Thanks so much for the clarification! The traditional elite sound like my kind of people. Where does one meet them? 😀 When on holiday in Maine we saw a Kennedy summer house. It seemed to say "we are so cultivated, we like to vacation by the sea in the middle of nowhere" But seriously, it was was good taste. Thanks again for explaining!
I wanted to add that it's possible the very thing you speak about is illustrated in the film Being There (with Peter Sellers) The higher American classes are confused at this old-money type character they believe to be very important.
I’m an American living in France permanently (almost 7 years) and what I admire greatly in the French is that everyone initially engages with respect-the “bonjour effect.” There is a certain formality and politeness that I find very endearing, and it also makes it very easy to feel comfortable in any social situation, from going to the bakery to hobnobbing at a dinner party. It does take a bit longer to make friends and extroverted Americans might feel ill-treated if they don’t respect the customs, but I love living here and feel more at home and accepted than anywhere else.
Ah yes bonjour sounds a bit like as "good day" with a little tilt of the hat! They're trying to introduce "tu" much more in social situations aren't they? Anmericans can be too informal such as being called "buddy" by tradesmen. I always want to say "You can also call me Sir if you like" In the UK we have "mate" but the connotation is different.I'm glad you are enjoying France. Merci !
Fully agree. I was brought up in that "bonjour" manner (Irish born parents). I was raised in relative poverty and was easily able to have long conversations with some rich (and some famous) New Yorkers that I met. We talked substance, not trivia including the realities of living in their class bubble. One aunt from rural Ireland ended up running the parties for the intellectual, creative and artistic elite of NYC and became a trusted confidant of a number of them. Same thing, raised in a "Bonjor" social tradition. Good manners mattered. In fact thatr aunt policed the behavior of the guests and expellled or instructed the rude in how to behave. She really did njot csare if she gotv fired as a result. Of course that is one of the reasons her clients hired her, pasid a lot of monrey,, and gove her valuable antiques as gifts.
@@johnmcgrath6192 Wow, thanks for sharing! Your aunt seems like quite a character.
@@ouicommunicate Right on. On my first visit back to the U.S. a few years ago, I was actually shocked by the casual and sudden familiarity by strangers, and that “buddy” business has always seemed rather disrespectful. Even at my most Americanness, I never called anyone “buddy,” probably because I never heard my father use it growing up. Of course, now it’s “dude” everywhere.
That reflects my 8yr in France experience. Add to that solidarity in groups. People look out for each other. I feel at home and accepted like I never did in NZ.
My intro to the UK class system: I worked on a John Lewis truck for a day in Oct 1973 delivering appliances with Irish and Scottish mates. The poorest areas gave the best tips. I also hitchhiked all over the England and Scotland, part of the time with a working class guy from North England who got us jobs in an all night bakery throwing dough in tins. Working class humor: a woman in Rochdale I spent the night with said using condoms was like washing your feet with your socks on.
In 1985 and 1986 I learned French in Montpellier and Villefranche while I was a grad student in history at UCLA. I'd already lived in Lisbon in the Carnation Revolution summer of 1974, in Seville, Madrid and Barcelona in 1976 and 1980-81, learning Spanish and Catalan. In the eyes of the French, as a NYer living in LA, I was elite by definition, though financially not at all. I'd studied French history (revolutions, les Communards, Front Populaire, Leon Blum, Vichy, occupation, liberation, Parti Communiste, read Les Temps on microfilm from 1934-47) and learned French with Raymond Devos (L'homme aui fait la valise, il y a des gents bizarres dans les train et dans les gares and Raymond Aron). In Villefranche I was adopted by two married French sisters from Marseilles, who'd grown up in Algiers, daughters of a colonel in the French army. Politically they were generation soixantehuitardes, the exact opposite of their father. One was married to a Jewish doctor. Somehow similar people find each other, however unintentionally.
Wow, what a story. Thanks for sharing with us!
As an English person who lived in France for a few years (with from the start very good French) I would support your view about the pride in being working class in England and the many aspects of culture that that feeds into. Clubs, bingo, football, speech patterns, food choices etc. There is not a major preoccupation with class progression, with "getting rich", or with losing one's working class speech patterns. I suspect that in France it is far more common for working people to identify as middle class and take on their characteristics. You hit the nail on the head there. My favourite anecdote- my hairdresser on hearing I was returning to England asked me what I would miss about France. I made the honest but admittedly humourous response "the coffee". The hairdressers creased up in laughter; "only an English person could say that. You are Mr Bean!" Of course the only acceptable response for a French person would be to refer to the cultural heritage, arts etc.
Thank you! I'll never forget my 60 year cousin exclaim with great joy "I'm a chav!" His elderly mum quickly put an end to those drams "No you're not you silly bugger"
I love that anecdote! "I just like yer coffee, mate" 😀 Poor hairdresser.
We don't realise it's something special but the French can often be struck by a 'blague Britannique' as being very different but also delightful compared to French humour.
@@sarahhhh775 Ah yes! Humour is quite different.
An excellent discussion of class consciousness in different social systems. I have personally known members of the European nobility who went around in torn clothing digging in the garden, very reminiscent of P.G. Wodehouse's Lord Emsworth. Since they set the standard of behavior, they are completely comfortable doing whatever they like in any circumstance without a second thought. In my experience the lack of concern with what others might think is one outstanding characteristic that is not found in the U.S. in any class.
Thank you ! Yes the nobles are very like that: appearances don't matter, we have the status anyway.
@sarahnd agreed!
Speaking from personal experience as an English-Canadian person (read, American/North American) having lived in semi-rural France for the past 10 years, I totally agree with your viewpoint of class differences and the associated attitudes between the French and the Americans. Naively, what shocked me when I settled here was how rigid the class system has remained in France, particularly after the French Revolution, which was supposedly to have destroyed that notion of class inequality, never mind the fact that France is a Socialist country (although becoming less so these last couple decades).
I even learned from a friend (in his late 40s), who was born into the Bourgeoisie, that he and his siblings were taught English so that they could speak in that language whenever the ‘help’ were around, so as to not be understood by them especially when discussing ‘sensitive’ subjects.
Due to this practice among the upper French classes, if a French person is fluent in English, it automatically places them into the Bourgeois class, in the minds of the French people. I feel, however, this has become less of a status marker among the younger generations now that they have full access to learning English via the Internet and inexpensive travel options.
Thanks for sharing! France is an ambiguous case indeed. They are religiously neutral but with a catholic bias that is seen in the public holidays and other traditions. They've done away with the nobles but still have them.
I also feel that English has remained the concern of few. In political positions or diplomacy we might hear a French person with a rarish B2/C1 level but I feel we could easily state that over 80% of France is A2 level in English at the most. Lack of teachers, static teaching methods...are just a few of the reasons alongside the fact that a French person is culturally monolingual. "We accept English but don't want it near our houses, in our cities or in our language"
Bourgeois is also interesting. Not to be confused with "petit bouregois" 😀or "haute bourgeoisie" 😀 it seems to have moved away from riches coming from trade or factories. They remain a largely invisible class, don't they? Sort of like, people know they exist but don't talk about them.
I'd love to know what your friend thinks of bourgeoisie in modern France in terms of numbers, interests etc. Merci !
@ My friend’s family belongs to the “haute bourgeoisie” but it is safe to say, as you’ve pointed out, their riches have near evaporated and it’s only their airs and graces that remain. He, as an adult, consciously moved away from their elitist attitudes, particularly when he openly announced his homosexuality, which is still frowned upon, yet exists regardless of class (perhaps it was more the fact that he was considered gauche for his open proclamation). In any case, when he does speak of his family, they appear to be living in the now-faded golden era of days gone by, what we might call ‘gentille poverty’ or ‘keeping up appearances’. Of course, I can only speak about my friend’s family, but it would seem to be the general case among this invisible class, as you rightly call them.
@@Mlydon888 Wow! I love that story - thanks !
As an American traveller, this is enlightening. As a traveller, I always see the BEST in the people of UK, or France. I am accustomed to that, not realizing that there are definite “ class” differences.
Whenever I encounter class differences, its always from a black and white film.
Thanks ! Yes that's the thing when we travel. We have our rose tainted glasses on and end up speaking to whomever. We don't even realize we might be doing down a dead end street with our new acquaintances simply cause we can't evaluate them properly.
Interesting, and very complex subject you have chosen there. I moved to Australia from Scotland, and I immediately felt I had gone up a notch on the social ladder without really doing much. The class system in Australia, which some would argue doesn't exist, is very subtle; until you mention old or new money!
I love that story! Yes i can't imagine a class system in Australia, it seems very horizontal.
I needed this video but I find that French people in general are very respectful and kind to everyone at least in the outskirts of Paris and the Northern part of France.
That doesn't surprise me! Ils sont tres courtois!
Excellent video and explanation for us who don’t know much about the French culture. Merci!!!😌🇵🇦
Merci !!
“I think they would somehow dislike each other” can’t help but think of all the historic wars that happened
Yes I'd love to know. Come on noble people watching this channel, tell us how you feel about other nobles! 😀
Very interesting discussion. I'm American. My husband and I are planning to settle in France when we retire in a couple of years. One of the characteristics of the French that I have always liked is that they do not look at having wealth as something that makes one interesting. When Americans are considering a relocation to a European country, I think it's not only essential to learn the language, but also to really study the sociology and culture of that country. Nouveau riche exists ad nauseam in the U.S., where one is more likely to first ask your occupation than to be curious about your likes, interests, or the last book you read.
I agree wholeheartedly ! We had a carpenter here in the USA who told me just about the cost of everything he had: the car, the house, how much he made a day...But I'd also say that the "get up and go" attitude in the USA is lacking in many countries of Europe because of the social safety net and because of a certain cultural tradition.
My wife and I bumped into some people she knew in a supermarket and they quickly questioned me about my activities. i.e are you tutoring or teaching in a school? I walked away with the disagreeable impression they were doing some mental maths calculations.
True also, that Americans (and others) should know about the sociology of their new country. It's not because we can go there physically that we can go there socially !
@@ouicommunicate The supermarket scenario you experienced is all too common. Maybe it's because I'm older now, but I find the shallowness of that behavior so disappointing. Very interesting point you mentioned about the American "get up and go" attitude lacking a bit in Europe due to social and cultural influences. I suppose we are all a product of our environment. Though not Europe, Australia has been home to our daughter for the past 16 years, and she has made similar observations. It's really a fascinating topic!
As a native Californian who has traveled extensively in Europe (and who 16:49 lived briefly in Germany decades ago), let me add another invasive (and highly inappropriate) habit found typically in conservative US regions: Asking someone you have just met "what church they attend"!
@@raymondmiller5098 That's so interesting. Because in the UK it's a polite thing to do 😀 It tells a person you are "proper".
@ouicommunicate Are you serious??? (On the list of very inappropriate questions my fellow Americans ask people they've just met, I rank the "church inquiry" rather high.)
I much appreciate your take -- totally in passing, as the sun breaking in -- on Dr. Jordan Peterson.
Haha! Well, he'd be foolish not to try to make the best of his fame. But yes, I remember watching his very first lectures that students were filming in his class and thinking"has the lecture started yet?"
Thank you for the insights into European class constructs. Very interesting.
Thanks so much !
I’m American from New England originally. When somebody has a lot of money, but they’re not posh as you say, we would call them Nouveau Riche. Our social class system is not without criticism, but it is far more flexible than it is in Europe. Particularly the United Kingdom at least that’s my impression.
I agree that it is much more flexible and I love it!
This is very valuable.
Thank you !
This gets US "class" quite wrong. An example being "Mc Mansions" which are not considered "posh" or "upper class" in the US at all - they're thought of as (big, quite tasteless) suburban homes for the slightly more affluent suburbanites. Those "well-off" suburbanites can be less well-off monetarily than most urban/city coastal expensive metro dwellers in small 2 bedroom flats. Small condominium apartments in big coastal cities can be hugely more expensive than large Mc Mansions in the suburbs of those cities. And certainly, money IS part of the US "class" culture - but just as important is level of education, and ones profession - A Harvard educated adjunct college professor in Manhattan making less than 100K IS considered more elite/higher class than a high school graduate car dealership owner, living in a suburban midwestern Mc Mansion, who brings in $1m a year. There's much more nuance than just "money".
Thanks for clarifying! This got me thinking that in Europe there's no phrase along the lines of "makes.... /year" as a way to categorize people. It wouldn't be a reference that people understand. And of course there's more intricacies than just money. It is a very populated and complex country.
@@ouicommunicate I was using "makes a year" to illustrate how money isn't necessarily the only factor in class in the US. People in the US don't discuss their salaries (outside of close family, or their financial consultant).
@ Of course! I didn't expect any less and it would be silly to make a blanket statement about a country as vast as the US. Thanks !
Thème intéressant et très bien analysé, chapeau, p'tit conseil qu'on a du te donner mille fois, prends soin de la lumière dans tes prochaines vidéos, hugses 😉
Haha! Oui, mais voyez-vous les gens sont tellement abasourdis par mon savoir qu'ils en oublient les details ethetiques !😃 Mais serieusement, je n'ai jamais compris comment les autres parviennent a avoir un son et images pro. Ca me depasse !
Very interesting and enlightening video - thank you for doiing it!
Merci !!! 😀
As an American, I ask about a person's job/employment as a jumping-off point for further conversation, not as a predictor of wealth. What people have chosen to do as their life's work is endlessly interesting. Americans certainly "worship" money, especially many of the "nouveau riche" but there are many, many Americans who have financial means and feel it is gauche to flaunt it. "Yankee's" in New England are one such group. They drive 20-year-old cars (always a high-quality car, like a Volvo, that they bought new and will drive until it is run into the ground,) and wear well-constructed, high-quality clothes (that they've owned for years and patch as needed.) They may mention how much something costs, but only if it was a great find or they got an incredible deal (in other words, flaunting how little they paid for it.) Overall, I think social boundaries are more permeable in the US. At the same time, there are many subtleties here, and abroad, that influence social interactions.
Thank you ! For the record, I love many things about America - brilliant country ! 😀 I didn't know about the Yankees and since I'm in New England I will have to inquire. And yes, social boundaries are much more permeable which in turn is so much better for business (which I find impossible in Europe) In Europe, we assume much more that an economic condition is once and forever. But because of the "rags to riches" narrative, the guy selling buttons in the street might be the CEO of a business in 3 years. I think people approach each other as such here perhaps.
Around 30 years ago I made my first trip to New York and was struck how Wall Street types ate at the hot dog vendor in the street. This wouldn't happen in Europe. And in this I see more social fluidity in the USA.
Thanks for your comment!
One thing I hate about talking with Americans is how they always ask "what do you do?" When I answer that Im a construction worker, they tend to look down on me and are not interested in further conversation. The other class question is " Do you own your home?'" They never learn that Ive been to more than 60 countries, and speak 3 languages. Here in Portugal, people rarely ask what one does for a living. I find it so refreshing. We are more than work. If I was rich enough, growing up in the US, I might have been able to afford University and been a much more boring person with a proper job.
Welcome to New England. It has changed a bit over the last 50 years since I was a child, but my old money WASP training still gets me through many doors. It's very quiet, the classism here, but it does operate. I was astonished when I moved elsewhere in the country: the class behaviors I was taught didn't work in Seattle, and in Chicago when I called myself a WASP, it stopped conversation. No one had ever heard a person describe themselves that way. There, it was only an insult.
This is one of the few comments that matches my 62 years of experience all over the US. However, your statement that Americans worship money is a gross generalization. I have no trouble meeting and befriending lots of Americans who shun consumerism. Also, in my experience people are a lot less class-conscious in places like the Midwest and many western states than, say, New Orleans (where I grew up)…In fact, the only generalization about the US that I agree with is that you can say almost anything about America, and it will be true. If you have a strong confirmation bias, you can always find examples compatible with your beliefs while you ignore countless examples that contradict your prejudices. (I have lived in 6 states + DC, from Minnesota to New Mexico, from Maryland to Utah, and I’m married to a Texan). I think the geographical mobility of Americans makes the class system more tenuous, harder to enforce.
@@matthewmccarthy2406I don’t know. There are snobs everywhere. I think most people admire those who have practical skills. Anyway, come back! We desperately need skilled construction workers!
I appreciate this, Chris. In my book & video "Destiny Deems" I mention my moving abroad and being informed what a title might not mean. As a Californian living in Europe and the Middle East, I recognized my cultural adolescence. I remain a perpetual student.
Thanks for sharing this!
Ok, I know nothing about any of this… it’s all a fascinating first for me! And I’ve subscribed being that I’ve begun to learn some French using the Michell Thomas method. Glad to be aboard! Salute!
I do 25% percent off to all former Michel Thomas learners ! 😀 No actually, only for you. Thanks for following this channel ! 👍
@@ouicommunicate thank you, I’ll keep it in mind
@@kathryncollings9421 The keys to the Jag are on the windowsill. I hope no one nicks them 😀
I know Chris likes to talk and I've got a ton and one things to do , so I decided to read the comments first and onto the video itself in a bit ; but it certainly sounds like this one has generated some interesting debate from different angles.
Thank you !
I'm French but I've lived in the three "worlds". I fully agree with you. You raise the relationship social class / cultural class, which is less obvious in America where people can be rich socially but poor culturally (Trump is a perfect example) and vice versa. In the UK, each class has its own strong culture. In France, the "classes populaires" ('a more general term than "clase ouvrière") tend to adopt middle class attitudes which value education and intellectual culture more than money as such.
Actually, for the video I meant to say "classes laborieuses" but used classes ouvrieres - in the context of La lutte des Classes which is just as good I suppose! It serves its purpose. 😃
Europe has the perverse effect on people to not look for wealth. But then you have the higher-ups (haute bourgeoisie) who probably smile in the shadows and say "that's right, you all keep believing that money is no good" Some say that the filet de securite sociale was originally invented to prevent revolutions. Why risk anything if you can be comfortable doing nothing?
@@ouicommunicate I agree! N.B. "Classes laborieuses" is a bit old-fashioned nowadays with the decine of the communist party. "Classes populaires" is the very common term used by sociologists and opinion polls. Merci pour votre réaction.
@@jean-lucjanot7054 Classes populaires? I suppose they have to give them some sort of name.
As an American who has lived in France, I had a hard time considering some people higher class than others. I also had to be warned to be very careful to use the most formal language possible to the head of the school I worked at. Having a Ph.D. in French comes in very handy in such situations ;)
Yes, it's funny isn't it? I keep telling my better half "you don't know it but I'm actually very posh" To which she answers "Ok, but that makes your brother posher than you then since he has a PhD" 😄 If we go by education, it makes it true!
Your right about appreciating certain things. In America people in nice big houses definitely may not have class in a British sense. Great job
Merci!
What an interesting channel - Thank you
Thank you for the kind comment !
An interesting talk on a subject seldom discussed. As a French-speaking American recently settled in France, I see American society a little more simply than you have laid out. Basically, there are two separate silos with some overlap: the well-educated and the well-off. The well-educated share much with their French counterparts, including intellectualism, leftish politics, and discretion with respect to money. For instance, none of my American friends would ever discuss their own compensation or that of any friend, nor would they boast of any expenditure. We view celebrities generally as coarse, whatever their wealth. Despite that we have worked diligently to achieve financial security, which is more necessary since Americans lack the social state, we consider whatever financial and social success we have reached to have been due largely to accidents of birth and circumstance. Like other Americans though, we do immediately query new acquaintances on profession, which after all does imply income, in the same way that the French, while never inquiring after either profession or income, will want to know in which arrondissement you happen to reside.
An interesting point is that the French are the only foreigners with an innate capacity to intimidate Americans, perhaps because if we studied any language at all in our school days it would have been French and that with scant success. Basically, Americans look down on all other nationalities either because of some stereotype or insufficient standard of living.
Merci ! Yes, fortunately for my ego I never claim to be absolutely right in anything! 😀 Let this be a free space for discussion. Thanks for the comment!
I think there are alsop differences related to age/generation that are becoming more revealed in the american class system. Some issues are more and less important depending on when you were born. I'm not a historian or a sociologist, but america is so large and complex, and is constituted of so many different influences, strains, and traditions...it can be bewildering. Add age-difference to the mix and each of the differences becomes even more nuanced.
Brilliant ! ♥
Thank you !😀
What an interesting video. So what exactly does get you respect from the middle/upper classes. I am assuming that it is more about being well read, culturally aware of the arts, music etc?
Thank you.It's hard to know what gets respect. I'm better at saying what doesn't get respect! 🙂 But yes, generally a receptive mind for culture would be a good starting point.
Can you explain, in terms of social class, the clash between soccer fans of Lyon and Paris Saint-Germain in May of 2024 when buses of fans of both teams found themselves at the same highway peage? That was when buses were burned.
I think it's probable that the French fans were fighting in a more middle class way. With that certain "je ne sais quoi".
and it's football
Burning vehicles is a custom in France to do in place of murder or rendering bodily injury. The justly aggrieved rioters from the banlieus, immigrant poor suburbs, burned cars. They did not attack people.
I’m an American currently learning French. I think France is beautiful, my hesitation of moving to France would be the bureaucracy!!! As an American i think it would drive me nuts!
Ooooh ! Please allow me to interject! 😀 In actual fact, what distinguishes the USA from Europe is that in Europe there's an actual conversation with the government. You can go in person to a" mairie" or equivalent and speak to a human being who represents the State. In the USA, it's all done through forms and websites. You can't speak to State representatives. In this, the State is a lot more elusive in the USA. In Europe, I can go in person with my wife and say "Hi, we wish to live here. Can you give us the paperwork?" Not so in the USA! . There is absolutely no direct conversation with the government. Am I wrong? (If I am I'll do you a deal on my French classes )😀
@@ouicommunicate There is an American bureaucracy and it's unintelligible to a French used to dealing with French bureaucracy!
I'm French and spent a full year in California in the early 1980's. I needed a document from the IRS to be exempt from federal US taxes. It was pre-internet, so I had to drive some 20 miles to the nearest IRS office. The employee categorically refused to establish this document, claiming I owed $2000 in taxes. I did not argue (which would be the French way!) but asked to be handled the book with the official rules. The employee reluctantly agreed adding that she was the one who knew better. I quickly found the text of the fiscal agreement between France and the USA and the precise article stating that I did not have to pay federal taxes. I showed it to the employee whose answer was "you're right" and handled me the document I needed. When asking an American colleague why that employee was incompetent, his answer baffled me: he said that if she were competent, she would not have been a civil servant...
@@ouicommunicate In France, you say "Hi (Bonjour is better!), we wish to live here. Can you please help us with all the paperwork?" It shows that person that you value her competence and, in a sense, makes her feel responsible for you. It can be very effective! And never take a "no" for a final answer!
I have a Swiss-German last name but am American, how would i be perceived
Oooh ! I don't quite know! 😀 I'm always interested when it is the case. And I often seem more interested in people's names than the American person. I met a Pflugbeil here in America - which means plow axe in Danish. The person was quite nonplussed when I pointed it out. And they pronounced it "plug-beel" 😃
I met quite a lot of French people living in Cambridge (and think there are even more in London, obviously). They were all educated at university level (some had PhDs) or started degrees there, had fluent English, and many mixed in European circles, with a few in more English circles (hippie/creatives). My view of the French in UK was that they seemed a bit depressed, compared to other Europeans. I didn't quite figure out why this is, but know that the English can be very dismissive and mocking of the French.
Really? That's so interesting. I always thought that it was a hard transition for a French person to fit in the UK. Academia doesn't work in the same way and neither does the social structure or language. Thanks for sharing!
The UK did not widely experience the effects of the Enlightenment nor the French Revolution. Thus, the social system disconnect compared with other European nations. While living in Paris, I attended the Anglican Cathedral and Masonic lodge meetings. I met many social equals through those (very regular) activities. No one ever asked what I did for a living - nor did I ever ask them.
So true. In Europe I would never ask anyone what they do. It's none of my business and doesn't change anything about the individual I have in front of me.
That is rubbish. The Scottish Enlightenment was one of the prime movers of the wider Enlightenment movement, and industrialisation, along with many of the key technological innovations kicked off in the UK.
It is perhaps a French conceit, because of the purifying effect of the French revolution, and the high esteem with which thinkers like Voltaire are held, and the centrality of buildings like the Pantheon in Parisian culture, that the bigger picture is not grasped, and the different trajectory of English history and intellectual/political development is sidelined, because the Enlightenment had a less radical effect on the UK's ruling structure and society, and it is Scotland where the Enlightenment is most vigorously celebrated, rather than London. However, London is super-modern in some respects (think of the City of London's highrises and its world city status in terms of diversity), alongside all its other layers, whereas Paris retains more of a 19th century feel and is a French capital where French culture is celebrated over and above being anything else.
That is rubbish. The Scottish Enlightenment was one of the prime movers of the wider Enlightenment movement, and industrialisation, along with many of the key technological innovations, kicked off in the UK.
It is perhaps a French conceit, because of the purifying effect of the French revolution, and the high esteem with which thinkers like Voltaire are held, and the centrality of buildings like the Pantheon in Parisian culture, that the bigger picture is not grasped, and the different trajectory of British history and intellectual/political development is sidelined, because the Enlightenment had a less radical effect on the UK's ruling structure and society, and it is Scotland where the Enlightenment is most vigorously celebrated, rather than London.
However, London is super-modern in some respects (think of the City of London's highrises and its world city status in terms of diversity), alongside all its other layers, whereas Paris retains more of a 19th century feel and is a French capital where French culture is celebrated over and above being anything else.
@ Of course there was an Enlightenment in Britain. That's just a fact!
@ouicommunicate For the upper class, of course. A few educational benefits trickled down to the masses. The Church of England has gradually lost its immense clout. But... the medieval class system still persists - and is soul crushing for the general population. Not so much in the agricultural sector anymore, but definitely in dead-end jobs.
I can't see why social classes would be "laughable", but I agree that Peterson isn't a genius.
I am agree, as the French would say.
I think that the USA is too large and complex to make blanket statements about class. Old money vs. new money matters more in some places but not at all in others. Family lineage and the depth to which someone is steeped in a community matters in some places but not others. Who you are vs. what you have matters in some places but not in others. There are places that value intellect while others that only value money. Ostentatious display of wealth is seen as either a positive or a negative depending on where you are, I'd also say that most people living in McMansions aren't sending their kids to horse riding lessons. They are more likely to be Target and Walmart shoppers who are living on the edge of their salaries. Now, of course, all of this actually depends on where one is in the United States. What's a McMansion is one place isn't considered the same in another. A "large" house isn't the same sort of "trophy" in less expensive places where they are more commonly found, while they are a much more substantial trophy for a Bay Area Californian.
I've lived on both the East Coast, West Coast, Texas, and South Florida. The class structure in each of them is substantially different from the others.
Thank you ! And definitely, yes. When we look at the actual living habits of owner of Mc Mansions it doesn't much differ from a coal miner from the 1800s. Get up at dawn, work, come back. As you say. most likely on the edge of their salaries. These are not people who own businesses or live off their investments most often. You can tell simply by the fact that they very often mow their own lawn, among other things.
Thanks for this. I have been curious about how different cultures translate. I feel that Europe has a more old money culture, America is EXTREMLY new money. Recently there has been an obsession with Billionaires in popular culture In the US so it's about to get worse. I personally like high culture, but I don't have much of an outlet in the Americas (I don't live in the US), so I am looking forward to visiting Europe to be able to enjoy that type of life even for a little bit. The arts, beautiful architecture, proper etiquette, fine dining, proper grooming etc. are mostly frowned upon in the Americas; one basically needs to find a secret community that embodies these values and find a way to keep social media out. UA-camrs are hunting out these places to expose and ridicule and eventually it falls apart. There is an 'eat the rich' mentality that is taking hold, so anything that the masses associate with being rich is being attacked. It is unfortunate, but this is how it is right now, IMO.
Thanks for the comment! Yes, I noticed that also. Kids adore Elon Musk without quite knowing why. (Personally I'm still waiting for hm to say any brainy thing) But Bernard Arnault is not, for reasons unknown.
I find America's way of doing things advantageous. In Europe very often, when a person is the owner of a business they endorse a persona in which they act superior. They become "le patron" and look down on people, as if they'd made it to a new social class. It's very hard to phone up these businesses and propose your services - even if they are guaranteed to work. Social mobility is a lot harder in economic terms.
in Spain money is pretty much everything today. overrides almost any social class…
Oh dear ! But you still have a royal family also don't you?
@@ouicommunicate yea the dad royal on the run from the revenue
sht Chris, do not tell them that we do not find the Trumper classy😂
😀
Pourquoi vous soumettez-vous aux prétentions des États-Unis d'Amérique d'être, dans le sens d'ÊTRE, le continent américain ? Pour le reste, je suis plutôt d'accord.
Ah Ok ! je me suis mal exprime. Je pense qu'en Europe on utilise a tort la notion d'Etat Nation pour parler de l'Amerique mais quand on y vit on voit qu'il y a une telle variete entre les etats que ce serait comme dire que l'Afrique est un pays. On dit "les Americains font ceci ou ca" mais c'est presque un non-sens lexical. Voila mon idee!
I tried living in Normandy and I tried learning French, but it seemed to me, that everything in France is judged by it's Frenchness. what I mean is: French good ,Foreign bad. I dont look French, so I felt I would never be accepted there. My friend is Half French, has lived there for decades now and they still treat her like a foreigner because she grew up in London. Why are there no Arab people owning farms in Normandy? It would seem to me a much better life than the suburbs or Paris. But somehow it seems it is not allowed.
I will say that the French are very French... but perhaps we can say that about all nations. The challenge France is finding is finding a balance between a traditional Nation State with one language and one culture, while at the same time accommodating different religions and cultures. I think France understands the fragile balance between preserving and evolving. Too much too soon would disrupt something long established.
@@ouicommunicate I do respect the French for preserving and valuing their culture. And I admire the fact that they get out and protest what they dont like and want to change. American Pop culture seems to bulldoze everything in it's path. I think we all need to resit this because its not good for people, the planet, or mental health. But they basically own the internet and mass media in general. Hopefully people will be more decerning and value independence more in future.
nice exposé but there are two points which i find slightly inaccurate as a french person :
the french working class still exists, it did not go away from the sixties on, it's class consciousness that has shrinked, as a result of the structuration of industrial labor that has evolved towards more "liberalisation" (factories closing, economy progressing into more services, with a part of the industrial workers becoming call-center employees, amazon plant workers and bike-delivery self-entrepreneurs), making workers more fragmented in their own cultures and lifestyles - and the other massive culprit is the ruin of the organisations which used to build class consciousness : the communist party proving it was little else than a puppet of moscow (and then as the ussr collapsed, everyone looked at media spreading the "end of history" narrative claiming capitalism had indeed no alternative, then "clash of civilisations" spreading fear against the muslim community), the unions degenerating into petty bourgeoisie careerist tools, the socialist turning neoliberal, and the generally left-leaning part of government jobs (such as many school and health system employees) gulping down socialist "normal political stances" (lies and postures hiding incompetence) and becoming helpless, only realising what was happening when it was already too late.
secondly I think the valorization of culture in france, with upper-class people respecting well-cultured peopled rather than new money should not be overstated. sure, it did use to be like this at some point, but from the 60s onwards, examples of upper-class people making room for business-first and profit-only mentality have steadily multiplied, and nowadays it is at an all-time high : just look at our bourgeoisie, or even their class of puppets that get elected, and show me one intellectual that is regarded as such by the academic world : you will find none. french upper classes have been actively renouncing intellectual life, because the more intellectual it gets, the harder it is to maintain the lies they have to keep feeding the masses, and more importantly : french economy has been shifting to a rift between a few "traditional" high-end industries such as fashion and the more upper class sectors of tourism and all the rest, the vast majority has been increasingly copying american economy, which explains that the main economic narrative in contemporary france is profoundly similar to that of the USA, and that our culture as a whole and even our very own french political debates are growing staggeringly close to uncle sam's.
Merci ! In my defense I didn't set out to cover everything - just the broader points. My purpose was to show that social classes don't match up well. Not to propose a study of each social class.
Yes, the French working class exists but it isn't a genetic thing like it is in the UK. And the French are much closer to the middle class, and can aim to get there after a course at university. Social mobility is possible.
I completely agree with you that standards have fallen in France. The intellectual and artistic glory of France is well behind them. (Ca commence a remonter que la France a fait parler d'elle sur la scene mondiale. La litterature, les atrs, la philosophie...ca fait tout doucement un siecle. Peut etre pas, allez, Michel Foucault au 20e! Mais sinon...)
I am shocked to see a lack of understanding from younger journalists in matters "on parle professionnellement/on parle avec ses potes" - les barrieres ne semblent pas toujours etre bien comprises.
Recently I saw an exchange between Melanchon and Zemour (a public debate)...it was "ras des paquerettes" Debat de bistrot. Nothing to do with the maniere d'etre of a Mitterand or Chirac. So I entirely believe you that the intellectualism of yesterday is but a memory.
Tres interessant et je pense très proche de la réalité
Merci !
Are Posh Spice and her husband considered posh? Or are they considered nouveau riche since they earned their wealth in entertainment?
Hmm...that's a tricky one 😀 Have we established that Posh Spice was indeed posh? Because she could very well be posh within working class standards. That's a sub-category in itself 😀 It seems a case for a Professor of Poshness from a reputable university. (If I were to guess, I'd say "nouveau riche". Definitely not posh in the French sense!)
@ Explained very well indeed! Thank you!
@@ouicommunicate If I can mettre mon grain de sel Posh Spice was definately never posh lol ! She was posh chav really.
@@shweefranglais7900 There you go, Matter sorted!
@@ouicommunicate Worth looking for the clip from a documentary on the Beckhams where she is telling the interviewer that she was “working class, really” and he pops his head round the door and says
“Oh yeah? What car did your dad drive?”
Victoria “That’s not the point, is it?”
David “Just tell him what model of car your dad took you to school in.”
Victoria “It was a Rolls-Royce, but he didn’t have it long and it wasn’t new.”
David “Thank you.”
Most Americans consider it rude to brag about how much you make, how much you paid for something. Even a lot of the people who voted for Trump did so despite the fact they think he is a conceited blowhard. Nouveau riche is a derogatory term in the US. I live in area with miles and miles of McMansions, and 95% of those kids go to public schools. (I don’t care for the McMansion-style myself, but I understand why some people do). The US is a very big and diverse country with countless subcultures and classes. I think you need to get out more.
Well, I don't know about getting out more. This video don't tell "truths" in an exhaustive way- it just says watch out things don't work the same way between all countries. I know that America is diverse, which is why I don't even consider it a country in the European sense. There are indeed many subcultures.
@ I think my comment was rather snippy, and I didn’t mean for it to be that way. I get a bit frustrated with generalizations about the US that are stated as universal facts, when they are often 180 degrees different than my experiences. I need to chill out a little. Thank you for your video and your insights.
in the usa, in middle to upper middle class areas outside of city centers, ppl send their kids to public schools. surely you've heard of "good schools in this area"? this is particularly true in the suburbs. in the cities, public schools are usually best avoided so the same parents will send their children to private.
@ That’s true, but most US cities have at least one public magnet school that is acceptable to the well-off.
I am a French living in the US. The video is good and on point, but I believe that it misses two aspects significant on both sides:
- city vs. countryside.
- regional class. The "horizontal" aspect briefly listed for the UK.
The class organization is different between city and countryside, both in France and the US. What is more specific to France is the "residence secondaire" pseudo-class, i.e. a temporary status bestowed to those from the city who move to their country home for the weekend. That concept barely exists on the west coast of the US, except around a handful of places, typically around national parks or ski stations. The US upper middle class seems to live in low density suburbs and to own much less secondary home. It might not be true for New Yorkers, but then many Americans see them as foreigners anyway. 🥴
The regional classes are significant in both countries, but at different degrees. If the rest of the US looks suspiciously at New Yorkers, most French look at Parisiens with contempt, anger and disdain (the "parigots" insult) Being from a small town or a larger city also brings different attitudes. What I was surprised in the US is that even small towns (villages) look (and people eat) like suburbs, when the lifestyles are quite different in France.
A French will immediately identify someone's origine based on the accent, and this will color how the conversation goes. The US have this too. Californians are not always treated the same as others, there is a subtle mix of envy and irritation. I know, I live in California and got some comments when traveling out of state.. 🙄
There are other states with marked "prejudice" as well: Texas, Florida, Minnesota (more of a positive prejudice..), New Englanders, etc. You just have to learn these stereotypes.
Merci ! Indeed I left a ton out of it - just a quick guide.
In my opinion, the layers are smaller between French people than they every will be in the UK. It's like comparing a wafer and a skyscraper. A UK politician speaks like no one anyone has ever met in Britain. Jacob Reese-Moggs, Boris Johnson, Starmer, John Bercow... (orrrdahh!) But in France and Belgium, politicians don't speak very differently from people off the street. So in that I don't think the vertical element is a factor. (And I m not talking about sounding cultivated or using brainy words) US Presidents similarly speak like the man off the street. There's no noticeable difference in level of culture.
I'd have to ask around about the bias towards certain states between Americans. We all know about the Midwest but I'm not sure about any attitude towards Californians. Where it gets really noticeable is between drivers from different States on the motorway ! They all think people from outside the State are the worst drivers !
Anyway, thanks for adding to this video ! 😀
@@ouicommunicate driving: I remember going to Boston first, and freeway traffic was incredibly calme and steady. When I came to California a few years later, I joked that Californians fully respect speed limits: nobody is _below_..
Californian's (bad) way of driving was a lecture given to me by a cop on Big Island, Hawaii..
Regional accents or origins do not mark you in the USA. It's a minor thing, very superficial and no one holds it for or against you. Being from Cali can mean very different things depending on a variety of variables as is true for any state or region. What you detected was nothing. As soon as you get to know someone, most of les petits préjugés disparaissent.
@ I wouldn't have thought so either. But thanks for confirming!
In the US, we also laugh at wealthy celebrities that can't string a sentence together.
I would expect no less!
Life is so much easier when you're Irish.
I can easily believe that. One day I'll have a little cottage in a forgotten village of Ireland!
Americans treat everyone the same. I don’t feel inferior to a European with a lot of money, and I don’t feel superior to a European with little money. I treat them all with respect.
That is indeed a quality that I've noticed in Americans!
I think most Americans also treat everyone the same, but honestly, we have a fair number of snobs, too.
The English overestimate the importance of being posh. Americans do not like to be posh.
Haha ! That's true, Americans don't like to be posh. On the other hand, they don't have that Medieval background. I appreciate the fact that every person is your equal in the USA. Easier for business for example, (maybe the topic for another video?) where trying to get through to the higher levels of management in a business in virtually impossible. They'll turn their nose up at you because they will consider you are not on their level. I've literally given up trying to do business with Europeans.
You make Britain sound like India with the caste system.
Well, perhaps a more subtle one.
England based on a Medieval economic system?? Do you know what you are talking about at all? England has been the first capitalist country in the world! There's absolutely nothing "medieval" about our economy, unfortunately.
With respect, did you listen to the video? It was about the medieval act of charging to use the Royals' land in Cornwall and Devon. It seems scary that you believe there's a possibility that a person on earth exists who would call the UK economy "medieval".
@@ouicommunicate What is scary is your fixation with the royals while it is the bankers and capitalist oligarchs rubbing the world blind.
The aristocracy were very much involved in the industrial revolution and the empire.
@@fintonmainz7845 Yes!
The Establishment rules... ok?
Dude, you have no clue what "medieval" taxes you are paying to your bankers.
Oh, my.
Of course, the USA is a country that spans a continent. Americans do not think about poshness. Wealth is the determiner but it's not really about class per se. We don't think this way. We believe in equality.
Homeless do exist all over in Europe, I have seen them everywhere I have gone.
Europeans in general still have a medieval mindset regarding wealth and its creation. They think the pie is fixed and anyone with money took it from someone else or gained it in a underhanded way.
Americans do not regard people with money as intellectual or superior save in the realm of wealth. Knowledge, character, skill(s) are all highly valued regardless.
Yes, I love that about Americans. When they complain about inequality, I always think to myself "you should see Europe. Over there you have even less of a chance. Free entreprise and creativity are rare in the field of business. Just today I phoned up 10 local American businesses to propose my French classes, I got through to the manager each time. In Europe, they will not even entertain a discussion because they will see you as a beggar instead of a person who might make their own business better. It's easier to flourish together in the USA.
Of course homelessness exists - just go to any European train station to see it.