Tank Expert reacts to German Spy Reports
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- Опубліковано 13 чер 2024
- In this video the curator of the Tank Museum David Willey comments on German reports from 1937 about British tanks.
Disclaimer: I was invited by the Tank Museum at Bovington in 2022.
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00:00 Intro
00:41 1st German Report
02:27 David Willey's Commentary & Discussion
11:15 2nd German Report
13:31 David Willey's Commentary & Discussion
#tanks #ww2 #tankmuseum
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great concept. Great conversation. The subtitles read "Blondburg goes to visit Lolworth to see the new Mathilda". I don't know if the subtitles got it right but I sure do like those names.
Yes please! This was great!
I'm a disabled veteran or I surely would..enjoy much learning here..
I really like that format. Too bad they did not give some additional details that would have nailed it down. The first on sounds like it was experimental or a prototype. As an engineer I can tell you the first prototype often does not resemble the final product. As to the 85HP engine, a prototype might only have enough engine to get it on and off the truck and move it around the test track while engineers were building the engine for it.
I fullly agree on the engine part. Its main pourpose could very well be to act as a generator for the electrics so that they could test them and reconfigure them without having to worry about running out of power
Mk 6 light had an 88hp engine and the Matilda 1 70hp so its pretty much in the ballpark for either. Mk6 is much closer on weight and armour though. It's actually a good description of it.
Old tractors with just 30hp can move heavy objects - 85 hp for that time does sound probable.
At that time you were mostly forced to design the entire tank around an existing engine. The engineering and production capacity to crank out engine designs and tooling wasn't there.
Means take the power, look at the space requirements and add people, weapons and armour around it. Just for the sake of finding out if the tonnage would still move at a speed deemed useful for the intended tactics.
I love that David is able to correctly identify the 16t experimental from the description, and then the reveal that the spies of the 1930s had it mixed up with a different tank.
Because unlike in the 30's we have all the information and have read what the tank is already lol unlike them. They went by what they KNEW
David wiley is a font of knowledge about tanks, for sure. But i got to say, if you hear about a tank which is 16 tons, its not that much of a leap to assume that it's a tank known as the vickers 16 ton
Your interviews are absolutely amazing. In my opinion, these are your best videos.
You know when to speak, when to listen; when to interrupt, when not to. Everything flows in a smooth fashion. You always leave the interviewee plenty of room to maneuver and explore his or her thoughts. Everything is on point and on time. Beautiful to listen to.
You should definitely do more videos in this format.
Many thanks.
Thank you very much!
I noticed this watching the Magach (sp?) and Jagd Panzer interviews. Great work MHV!
This should be subtitled, "Pre-WWII Fog of War (Tanks)." 😄
Tank experts doing what they do expertly talking about tanks, it's always fun and informative.
Such fun! A little like watching tank nerds in the 2020's getting together to talk about what tank nerds talked about in the 1930's. So much more than just, "what was the tank?" You get into trying to account for how such dispatches could have been written and what they might have reflected. Corvette nerds were predicting the mid-engined Corvette for what, 50 years before it finally came out, so we should not be too surprised if what was written did not reflect what was actually produced.
The second description: 3-man, dual MG with AP, 85hp engine, commander cupola, is very clearly the Vickers Mk6 as David mentioned.
Making that identification was just confused by the report including a description of a second, different tank: "I meet another three tanks of this type, AND passing me at speed a Medium tank with Christie type suspension."
At the risk of of sounding like I am splitting hairs, time frame wise, Could be the early MkV which introduced the 2 man turret and dual machine gun armament. I think it had an 88hp Meadows engine from the Vickers 6 tonner in it as well
The second report is dated 20 May, so just 2 days after FM Werner von Blomberg, German Defence Minister, inspected a tank at the Gunnery School, Lulworth, 18 May 1937. We know that tank to have been the Matilda I
I quite agree. It is clearly not a Matilda I that Blomberg is known to have inspected, and the description fits the Mk V perfectly.
@jmackmcneill if your listen from 14:46 David Wily says : it certainly doesn't sound like a light 6b
Plus 'the rear idler wheel is NOT raised'. Could be a Light MkV (1935) or a Mk VI (1936). Both have the two-tier turret/cupola layout, but the Mk VI has more vertical turret sides - and a larger ('very spacious') turret.
Happy to see you are back and feeling better.
Thank you!
Fabulous video. Thank you for making this.
I love the Tank Museum and the sense of history and context. David Willey is such a fabulous and knowledgeable orator too.
'Close all hatches and pull handle to suppress fire' might indicate a gas based fire suppression system, presumably the men exit and pull an external handle as they would suffocate inside. Alternately it could be an engine compartment fire suppression system that could be activated from inside the tank.
You know you’re a history geek like me when you get all excited about a reaction video of intelligence on tanks! This was a fun format and produced interesting and informative conversations. I hope you do a follow up video!
Mind, the problem with spies is that they are people, so they are going to relate what they see as they perceive it, so you could get very different reports on the same thing based on whom is doing the reporting. Therefore, it is a dangerous thing to do, as an analyst, to say "you'd think the spy would have mentioned this if talking about that object." The spy is not you, so what they think is important or what they think they are saying by their choice of words is not going to be the same as you, the analyst. This is why "intelligence" is such a difficult and inconsistent thing, because you are dealing with people and people are not perfectly predictable machines but chaotic forces unto themselves.
Sound like witness, everyone has a different answer
Also, a spy may not have the technical background to really understand what he sees.
True it's some guy working at the embassy. That probably does the payroll of the embassy really well. But looking at a tank, has no clue, beyond whatever he thinks he hears and jots down. The German FieldMarshall might have some engineering background. So the Brits knowing this use deception.
@@MarkVrem He's the military attache. A serving member of the military
David Willey is a wonderful man .. incredibly interesting... his Tank Chats on the UA-cam channel are epically good ..
Two modern giants of military history in one video. And it's not even my birthday.
Lol, David Willey is a guest at his own institution.
Yeah, I noticed while editing... "well, that was probably not the best choice of words...".
This was a very entertaining and interesting video. I liked the twist you put on the format of your interview.
Love this format. Really dips into historical analysis in a way that's entertaining to listen to.
I normally ignore any headline that starts with "Blah expert reacts to Blah" But then I recognized David Willey in the thumbnail, so I guess I'll watch the video.
Dream collaboration.
Next LazerPig and Perun.
🥳
My god yes!
I predict blue air and powerpoint ;)
Excellent collaboration/ conversation. Very interesting content. Thanks much!
Amazingly well done! This sort of content is invaluable and very educational to say the least. The perspective and insight present in this format isn't easily matched or replaced. Well done!
Glad you enjoyed it!
This was a very interesting episode! Great collaboration by you both as well.
The second report of may 20th is two days after Feldmarschal Blombergs visit to Bovington
That was a lot of fun, I always enjoy your videos on the old intel reports and you have great guests who always bring something extra.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The first description is interesting because it seems like the report was written by a spy who collected all his information from talking to the crew and/or a quick look at some demonstration. I rather fancy the thought that this German spy bought the crew a pint and asked seemingly innocuous questions. Joe/Tommy is not known for being smart and it is actually rather easy to pull information from them during casual conversation.
That's basically how spies actually work a lot of the time. Get themselves in good graces with people and ask them questions.
This was awesome bernhard, nice to see a different view on tanks, great video.and also liked the podcast when u was we have ways of making u talk👍
I think the 2nd vehicle mentioned is really a combination of Vickers Light Tank models based on the descriptions: Early design with Vickers suspension, later design with Christie suspension with an idler wheel on the ground, and finally a twin machinegun armament. Some early vickers light tank designs had similar suspensions as the Vickers 6-tons. Later designs had the idler wheel on the ground, and the usage of wheels attached to springs on an arm might be mistaken as Christie suspension. The key description is the dual machineguns setup.
But the report clearly states that the Christie suspension vehicle was different from the one discussed in the min body of the vreport. Go back and watch agin
Very good idea for a question and answer format. David Willey was also a good choice to make attempts at identifying the vehicles. A big thumbs up.
Loads of fun, interesting and engaging. Great job by you both. This would make a good prelude to book collaboration on the general subject, Spy Stumpers. Follow up book would have to be Curator Strikes Back 😜.
Always glad to see a new MHV video.
Blomberg visits UK is a topic on reddit you can find by searching for 'Nazi war minister Werner von Blomberg with English officers is watching British tanks Vickers Medium Mk. II. during his diplomatic visit in England, 1937'
That was fun and informative.
Thank you!
Brilliant episode, could watch this format all day, thank you for this, was a joy to watch 😉👏
Glad you enjoyed it
Great editing work too! It is so helpful to see a picture of one of these more or less obscure tanks, right when they are mentioned in the interview. We're not all tank specialists 😉
Very nice video. David is a great chap. Good respect x
Excellent video and a superb job by David!
Just found an article: Blomberg did indeed visit on 18 May 1937
I could listen to you two for hours - and I do!
This is my favorite channel crossover in the world and I haven't even started the video
David Willie is a great guest Glad you were able to get him on the channel
This was a fantastic idea! Would love to see a follow up in the future. Perhaps English reports on German vehicles (if possible)?
The was excellent. What a great idea Bernhard, backed up by your great preparation and of course the ever insightful and considered views of David Wiley. Would love to see this repeated the other way round too, eg early British reports on the Panzer1 and 2 etc.
Excellent Crossover! Keep it up!
Fantastic presentation, great subjects.
Ok, nice video! Now I’m waiting for bottom 5 tanks on The tank museum channel!
Coming soon!
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized Cannot wait! 👀😃
Loved the video. Missed seeing you this year at Dday Conneaut. Hope to meet you again some time!
Hopefully, next time, but this year I had to take some time off already, so it would have been "impossible".
Good answers, good question. Really enjoyed this, thanks guys.
Awesome, thank you!
Loved this video. Many thanks.
“As for 3 days’ rations, I don’t think it’ll be a Red Herring”! He, he, that’s brilliant David.
Really fun video. Interesting talk about spy work and military attaches. Please do this again some time. ^^
What an interesting video, great to see two experts really thinking about which vehicles these reports could relate to. Terrific video, thank you!
Close openings & fight fire - could this refer to closing engine louvres in the event of an engine fire before discharging the fire extinguisher?
What is it in the original German?
This is a great idea for a video. Love the results.
Glad you liked it!!
Love this video, great time. 👍
This is great, it gives such insight
That is a cool new format!
The first one is a puzzler but the second definately sounds like a Vickers Light Mk VI.
3 man crew
Light armour
MG only armament
Idler not raised (this is the clincher for me, what other British tanks lack a raised idler wheel?)
Vickers had exported plenty of vehicles similar to their light tanks so the reference to export matches that as much as it does what's generally referred to as the six tonner.
That was my guess too but my knowledge on British tanks is not the best.
That was fairly interesting, trying to figure out which tank the reports were referring to from such a long time apart.
A really fascinating topic
This has to be the most novel "reaction video" I've ever seen.
Always nice to have David around, but I do kinda miss Finn the dog :(
Like those interesting German reviews of the Churchill mk I recovered from the Dieppe raid that were very disparaging & not to be feared when the British view was the same, as the tank had been rushed through development and it was the redesigned mk III & VII that proved an advantage in battle.
A great and very interesting video
This was a super neat idea!
Thank you! 😊
wow what a great video!
Thx
2nd one is obviously a light Tank Mk VIb Two man turret makes it obvious A11 doesn't have two men in turret, no cupola and a single MG only. So the officer was passed by two Mk 6B and an A -13.
The report notes that the guns weren't fitted but he saw them later so he could have been confused as to which tank the guns should be fitted to?
Possible, but unlikely
I wonder if there is any spy infomation on the Sherman tank or other later tanks.
This is an interesting idea.
I think you should do this with Chieftain using intelligence reports on US armor vehicles.
Love this!
I really liked this one, fun and interesting.
Glad you enjoyed it
The second description notes a 3 man tank with a 2 man turret so not a Matilda 1.
Thinking about it the first tank could be the A7E3 experimental Medium tank.
Variously recorded as complete late 1936 or early 1937.
5 man crew
No sub turrets
3 pounder (not 3 inch as the report says but an easy mistake)
Thanks. That was very interesting
I think the problem with a lot of "intelligence" reports - is that some of them are based off information coming from people who don't really know what they're talking about. So one of the factors here - is trying to figure out if that is the case or not.
As to the different nations technical people just talking to each other as equals - that IS what they were and they probably loved doing it. Here's a kindred spirit! He gets it. Even in their own country's most of the people they are dealing with are relatively clueless when it comes to their area of expertise. So if they get to talk to someone else with a similar area of expertise - they're really happy about it.
This would be comparable to two people having their own UA-cam Channels on similar subjects getting together and talking about them.
.
Excellent......
Many many thanks!
He is very good, isn't he? David Jnr kicking arse.
Fascinating
extraordinary good
Sehr interessant. 👍🏻💮
Tanks nerds chatting in their native habitat LOVE IT!!!!
Whose book were you referring to around 10:40?
The question I would ask is when was the first German General Field Marshall. Was there one in 1937. I’m not sure if there was one commissioned yet by Hitler yet in the Officer corp. So I assume it would be a British officer.
ahh this is so awesome
Sometimes you just have to stop and appreciate how fucking crazy this content would be at any other time in history
Did David ever got back with the date of the visit of the German general, does it match up with the time of the report?
In some respects, i.e.: armament and speed, two man turret with a commander's cupola; it sounds more like the Vickers Mk VI light tank. Some versions had a cupola.
A discussion of Spanish Civil war material and ops would be interesting.
Did the Heer have anything further to say about the Christie suspension?
Not that I remember, but if I ever come across something, I probably will cover it.
The biggest collab of all time.
The second tank is a Vickers light tank mk iv
Interesting
I love that
Is nobobody going to mention the bit where they thought there was a fith guy firing... backwards?
No
On the consideration about officers of soon to be enemy armies talking together about their developments,
that reminds me why firms tend to avoid letting their technicians go around and talk freely to one another -- because technicians love to talk about their ideas, experiments and work!
Better to have the people from the sales department do the talking, they are in the mindset to talk about what they intend to talk about, not about what is interesting, relevant, etc. ...
... and it would probably be wrong anyway.
Information safety!
Is it possible that the German intel beilieved that the tank crew would be using a system like halon or a similar gas? This would make sense that you would close the hatches and release the fire extinguishing agent - since it was designed to be breathable for short periods.
No, Halon wasn't developed as a fire suprescent until the 1950's. The best anyone had was Carbon Dioxide which is toxic. Closing the hatches would kill you in a closed environment. My opinion is that you close the hatches when attacked by an incendiary device like a flame thrower
Honestly I was gonna guess an a10 cruiser for the first one.
Definetly a cool thing
what did they mean by Schweizer Geschosse (swiss bullets)? 7.5mm GP11?
no idea.
Sounds like a typing mistake, or somebody didn't know what "SmK" stood for. "7.92 mm S.m.K. - Spitzgeschoß mit Kern ("spitzer with core") hardened steel cored projectile for use against targets behind thick covers, tanks, or airplanes. Red circular cap groove, yellow bullet, bullet weight 11.85 g (182.9 gr), muzzle velocity 785 m/s (2,575 ft/s), operating pressure 300 MPa (43,511 psi). This ammunition was also produced in a S.m.K.-v high-velocity or "v" ammunition variant that added 100 m/s (328 ft/s) muzzle velocity to the normal S.m.K. variant.[40] There was also a version S.m.K.H. - Spitzgeschoß mit Hartkern ("spitzer with hardcore") which had a tungsten carbide core instead of a steel core. Sintered iron and mild steel cores also came into use in this ammunition. German Spitzgeschoss mit Kern armor-piercing bullets were very good, being very stable and accurate at long ranges"
@@colbeausabre8842 I know what SmK is, I doubt it were those, since these were very well known. Additionally, "Schweizer Geschosse" was something we seems to have been mentioned by the British.
Interesting thesis though.