People are getting far to technical here with the 1-2 micron comment it wasn’t meant to be scientific and exact he is just stating it’s barely any difference! I have a Cerax 1k stone, normal size and I flatten it when I notice the edge isn’t making even contact whether it’s 5 or 25 knives. I’ve done a couple hundred knives on the Cerax 1k stone and it’s still over a centimeter thick. It’s impossible to say every ten knives or every 3 knives because it’s all relative to how bad the edge was the hardness of the steel the ability of the sharpener etc. my advice is use as much of the stone as you can and when you feel like your making uneven contact flatten it.
Agreed. If you are sharpening or stropping a knife on a whetstone use every inch of the stone. That is what help flatten and evenly wears the stone. Only use a nagura stone when you need to clean metal shavings off of the surface of the whetstone or you need to create a thick slurry to have a more aggressive sharpening or stropping session. Practice!
For only a few bucks, a straight edge and a set of feeler gauges would give a precise answer. I have a King 1k/6k that has seen only light use sharping plane irons, and I just checked to find that a 0.002" feeler gauge slid into the dish with ease. So I guess I need to flatten because my dish is an order-of-magnitude deeper than his?
Yup. Also, the flattening is only needed for plane irons and such. It IS SUPER IMPORTANT that your stone is flat, within reason. For knife blades and such, it doesn't really matter. Like the post says, flaten it when your blades aren't making good contact. If you're sharpening a blade with a reference surface, such as a chisel or plane, then yeah, keep it in mind, but don't get obsessive...
I'm a newbie and have been looking for what I need to get started and the variety and combinations out there are daunting. Everyone has something they tell you you need to have and I almost gave up completely when I saw that the stones needed to be flattened. I was ready to just find someone to fix my knives for me. Seeing your videos have eased my fears and I thank you.
I never flattened my stones until I got into woodworking - that’s when I realized how important it was to have a flat stone - but that’s only because you’re sharpening flat faced chisels and plane blades that need to be as close to flat as you can get it, because those blades are responsible for shaving the thinnest amounts of wood fiber you possibly can at times to get very precise joints and fits But aside from that - I agree, I personally feel like my sharpening is more intuitive and natural once I break in a stone and get my own personalized groove In my knife stones Love your videos man 🤙🤙
The main reason I love watching people here on youtube who doesn’t sell products or endorsed by some snake oil products... just plain honest tips and reviews without the BS sales jargon... TY!!!
You are so right. Ive used stones where you can even see the belly and I can still get it sharp even though then I believe i should flatten it. I have gotten used stones like that and sharpened knives just to see how the stone was. Not big kitchen knives but pocket knives so in this case I was not using the entire stone but I did however sharpen the knife. Its nice to see people not being wasteful and conserve what they have. Mainly just not filling peoples heads with missinformation. You mainly flatten a stone with your sharpening and using every inch of the stone. Anyways I love your videos there very informative and I really enjoy watching them and appreciate how open minded you are about topics and remain unbias even though everyone is to a degree and thats fine. People also need to have opinions and in this day and age with all the commenters I think too many you tubers have to walk on eggshells or at least they do.
Same. I have a cheap stone with quite an impressive bow to it, but can still get a hair whittling edge. Funny to see some of the elitists in the comments
THANK YOU FOR AN AWESOME AND TIME/MONEY SAVING VIDEO!!! I don't care how old it is! I've probably sharpened about every "type" of cutting edge there is... AND I've gotten by with just about any reasonable sharpening instrument for the task. From taking an "EZ Lap" Diamond grit sharpening rod to axes and chisels, to needle-files for the micro-serrations on a Ginsu set I found in a thrift store for a dollar! I almost never flatten a stone! I only periodically bother "resurfacing" the stones in my dremel, drill, and bench-grinder collections. (Angle grinder stones just don't last long enough around here to bother) The REAL answer to a truly sharp and consistent edge on any cutter or blade is Technique. You have to "get a feel" and "tune your ears" for the job. It takes time and practice. That's not to say that there's absolutely no purpose served in flattening, either. BECAUSE if you paid attention, you'd see clearly that I specifically ALMOST never flatten a stone. On that, it comes down to "making the judgment call"... Every particular sharpener and sharpening shop(?) is going to be a bit different. SO everyone's personal experience is also going to be a bit different, and we (general knife and care enthusiasts) should be able to take our growing knowledge and balance what the purpose is for flattening with the expense (between effort, time, and stone-material lost) to find our own terms for flattening our stones. I think that's really what this video is about, even if it's not specifically said in just so many terms. AGAIN, RYKY, Thank you so much, for working toward that "use your better judgment" and giving a bit of a push back on those "expert sales people". I hate the worry that "teaching" always has to come with some ulterior motivation to sell me something. ;o)
Murray explains in one of his videos how he uses the whole surface. If he sees a high spot he focuses on that spot to level it out. Like you said he is a master, I'm sure it takes a lot of skill to sharpen that well while maintaining a flat stone from sharpening on different edges each time. That being said I've tried to keep it flat but it is natural for me to move back into the center. I'm sure I will learn though. Great videos, I've enjoyed seeing and hearing about all the different stones and knives you have the privilege to get your hands on.
Very good solid information for knife sharpening. You certainly do not need a flat surface to sharpen most knives. Flattening stones regularly is only slightly more critical when sharpening flat edges such as chisels & plane iron/blades for very fine wood working.
Great video mate! I absolutely agree with you. The first time I ever needed to flatten my stone was after 5 years, and that's because I was sharpening a scandi ground knife and needed a flat surface; otherwise I wouldn't have done it
Thank you! I just picked up Shapton pro 320, 1000 and 5000 stones for a sweet deal to learn whetstone sharpening, and I was about to drop $90 on an atoma 140 or 400. I'll save my money
I knew it! Now I finally used one of those last night & not only did it just not seem right & all that but the amount of material I lost was freaking nuts. Long story short I went to look into this & found this video. Thank you brother for the video, it was helpful
I learned to sharpen from Murray Carter's videos. I tend to agree that you really don't need to flatten every time. Also, I suck compared to Murray and you, and I don't sharpen NEAR the number of knives you guys do, however, I do get more than acceptable results. I suppose if a dish started giving me problems, I wouldn't mind flattening, it just hasn't happened yet. I feel like if you wait to flatten, or if you flatten every time the material you take off would end up being the same. Keep up the good work!
Hey Ryky,,,, Being a beginner in the Splash/Go, wet stone community,,,, I see you as the “Ip man “ of the sharpening/ wet stone Universe. You might laugh,, but even your demeanor , character and ethics really match. I Greatly appreciate this video and the one on “the burr”,,,!!!!! These short tutorials are really helpful. His Blessings,,,, Joshua
Humble, honest, and fair assessment. I have wondered about the small dip in one of my stones, the effect upon a knife sharpened across it, and the consequent need for flattening the stone. Should the need arise, the example here shows how to flatten with a diamond stone and the reason to use a Nagura stone afterwards. Very useful information. Danke.
To clean the embedded metal from my 1,000 and 12,000 grit ceramic stone, I use a wet sponge scrub away the metal. before during or after. If done during it can remove the metal and expose the sharp abrasive for continued efficient sharpening
Hes right, untill you get into custom carpentry sharpening hand chisels and block planes. Then a flat stone is absolutly a must. I cook and do woodwork. If i was just sharpening knived i wouldnt be so anal about flat stones
Exactly. The only thing I'll say is not just block planes. Any flat backed blade basically. This includes all chisels, try and jointer planes, etc. Even then, I don't flatten every single use, but maybe after three or four blades, and I run a 1000 grit diamond plate to take off the least amount from my stone. I've never had a nagura though, until yesterday when my new dabato md 100 came in. Any tips on the use of the nagura with this splash stone? Should it be splashed or soaked, or should only the dabato be splashed? All instructions were in Japanese so I'm clueless. That being said I've sharpened two plane blades on it and love love love the stone.
I really like this video (saw this video one or two months ago, maybe on your other channel). But the best tip you gave for maintaining a whetstone is to use the Rust Erasers instead of the nagura stone. Thx for that.
What is the difference between a Nagura and a Rust Eraser? I bought the Rust Erasers that Ryky recommended and they do a very nice job of cleaning up the stones, but are they so soft that they remove little to no material? Also, I just noticed the description on the link on the Amazon page says to soak the Rust Eraser for 10 minutes... is that true? I couldn't tell from the packaging, because it's all in Japanese!
The Nagura won't last as long as the Rust Eraser will. I don't know how long my Rust Eraser will last, but I bet I will still have it in 5 years. Both Nagura and Rust Eraser are suppose to remove the metal from the stone. They are not designed for removing the stone material itself. So, you cannot flatten a stone with them. You need to soak both the whetstone and the Rust Eraser. I reckon the Japanese instructions on the packaging aren't really useful for this kind of application, since the Rust Eraser's main purpose isn't really to clean up whetstones.
Got it... thanks! I haven't been soaking my rust eraser, and it has been cleaning my stones nicely... I'll have to let them soak and see how they do (probably easier on the stones, which has already been pretty easy).
I bought myself cheap diamond flattener, I plan to keep it untouched until I see a noticeable dent in my stones. That was a common sense to me. I'm glad suehiro stones come with nagura now. I didn't know what they are for really, I thought they are flattening stones as well, now I know thanks.
@@Burrfection what freedom said. I was wondering though.. when you DO flatten a stone.. have you ever had a stone become "glazed"? (Particularly lower grit / coarser stones)? Glazed meaning that the stone itself is like polished smooth and won't really sharpen anything until it's redressed (in case that term isn't one you've heard or something) - I recently had this happen to me with one of my stones and was wondering: If you have had this happen to you (or have heard of it) how do you deal with this? Do you use the tempered glass / SiC powder that everyone else seems to recommend?
Thanks for this video it's alway interesting when you throw tips from the masters. I guess that by being fluid on the stone and by having an equal grind everywhere on the surface then you don't really need maintenance.
1000% agree with his advice, esp since it’s applying to knifes almost solely, and the curvature of knives creates a contact point so small at the stone that it does not matter whatsoever to be perfect flat when it comes to sharpening a curved edge (there IS obviously a limit in that tolerance, duh, BUT that limit is nowhere near what most ppl believe it to be when sharpening knives..) If you need a machined dead flat surface on another tool other than a knife, well then yeah flatten before for that use definitely. But for day to day knife sharpening it just is verrrrry rarely (if ever...) needed Cheers
No wonder why i felt something is very off after I lapped 6k king with diamond plate but didnt use nagura afterward. I saw marks n scratches on my knife and raised my eyebrows left to right questioning if its the nature of lapping or I did something wrong. It cuts still but felt very toothy not smooth n somewhat polished but lots of marks. Yes it shocked me how much stuffs go to waste from lapping. "Do not forget nagura after lapping" i'll keep repeating until it roots in my brain cell. Thx Ryky🤙🏻🤙🏻
While i would not care about the flatness of a stone for a knife, I will very much care about the stone flatness when it comes to chisels and to a lesser extent plane blades. They are considerably smaller and due to how they are sharpened they will more or less take the shape of the stone.
Yes, I tend to agree that you do not need to flatten the stone each time. I think that makes little sense and you eat through the synthetics pretty quickly, faster than their normal rate of deterioration. I could not help myself and had to write a little 'Synthetics vs. Jnats,' thing. I honestly do not know why chefs and folks sharpening beautiful and expensive kitchen knives bother with synthetic stones. Its like buying a Ferrari and putting crap tires on it, or spending a fortune on a custom tailored suit only to go cheap with fake leather shoes. Totally Off Topic: (do not read ahead unless you want to talk about Japanese Natural Whetstones or "Jnats" as we call them for short) I know one thing - this video demonstrates a few reasons why I use nothing but Jnats. We do use nagura, tomo nagura and Mikawa Shiro nagura as correcting stones but mostly they are used now to raise slurries. Rarely do I feel the need to flatten a Jnat and that's using them primarily for a considerably more precise job, razor honing and restoration. Knives do amazing on some Suita, and Tsushima stones. I just think so many knives people out there are simply unaware of these natural stone options. In fact, if Jnats did not exist, I wouldn't even hone or sharpen. With Jnats the stone is at least as valuable as the subject being honed or sharpened. In the case of Jnats you should use an atoma VERY SELDOM. The precious Ozuku, Shobu or Nakayama material is worth keeping so much of it. I have been trying to get knife guys to make the jump over to a Jnat. Those that have are RAVING about them. I make very little money selling them too. I might be too honest and straight forward, but I don't care because my reward is actually making people happy with the Jnats they buy from me. They last much longer, retain their value, and you need not spend so much time and money on flattening stuff. Try selling your used synthetic stone in a few years. If you've regularly used it its worth next to nothing. The same Jnat? Still has most of the stone you started with and is worth at least what you paid for it in most cases provided it is the REAL deal. Synthetics you spend a lot of money over time. Jnat you spend a lot of money in one shot, but you don't need to spend it again. I have several stones here that are multigenerational and I KNOW I will pass them on to my next of kin who will likely be able to sell them for a profit. I'm not leaving anything behind if I am spending the money on the synthetics.
Great video, Ryky. Unless you have a friend to show you the ropes, you're likely to make mistakes early on in the learning process, especially when there's a lot of conflicting advice and a lot of stuff you can buy that purports to solve your problems. They dangle these $300 diamond plates in front of you, and then you see folks lapping stones on glass and sandpaper, on other stones, on cinder blocks and patches of cement and you say hold on a minute here and you keep your wallet in your pocket. If you want to give me permission not to obsess about stone flatness or spend a pile of money on it I'll accept with gratitude.
If you'd like you actually find out how deep the dishing is, you can use a depth micrometer to find out how deep the dishing is. most can read out to the thousandth, even the cheaper ones.
Flattening stones is important for wood workers but for sharpening kitchen knives not so much. To sharpen a plane iron the stone has to be very flat because it has to take shavings that often are just a few thousands of a mm thick. But even for that, I don´t have to flatten harder stones every time. A King stone, yes but a Chosera, a Shapton or the much harder oil stones will sharpen quite a few chisels and plane irons before they´re not flat enough anymore. All that doesn´t matter much for kitchen knives. The double sided King stone I use in the kitchen has worn about 2mm in the middle now and I´m thinking about flattening it just to make it look nice again. It still works perfectly.
I find this topic a little unusual. My dad taught me how he sharpened his knives and trust me they were very sharp. We used and old Craftsman two sided oil stone. We sharpened so many knives it had at least a 1/8" belly in it. We had no problem shaving with our knives. I see no need to flatten at all for knives. Now if you're sharpening chisels or plane blades then you should keep your stone flat but not every time.
Being new to knife sharpening ,but not new to sharpening other types of tools for my former trade (retired) . Thanks for many very good videos and tips. Lots of info and I've learned a lot from your videos . BUT , after purchasing a Nanina super stone 3000 grit 10MM . I found, after the 1st use, My New, once used whetstone, is not even close to flat . So bought a Naniwa flattening stone (which is not close to flat either , I can rock it on a decent straight edge i own) . I guess that whetstone is anywhere from 1/64"- 1/125" off . I think that is more than a micron or 2 . Even the 20MM Naniwa whetstones (both Super Stones ,400 and 800) I also got at the same time where out of flat . So I guess there are times when flatting is needed ..... When you see light, between the straight edge and the stone and the center(of the stone) is higher then either end of the stone, I would guess you can not sharpen anything well, if you try using the whole stone . I believe it makes keeping the angle of the knife, level all the way though the pass . Somewhat flat should be good to go . But as I worked with tolerances in the 1K's of an inch, It can make a difference . Yup, I am picky about things like this , and after reading and seeing all those great reviews , I bought a few . Disappointed is a word that comes to mind . Despite the issues with the stones I have . I have been able to get to a good place getting a sharp knife . I give credit to pointers on the videos I seen here and a few other sites. Practice , practice ,practice.
Awesome vid and great info... but I bet I could measure it with a Mitutoyo Depth Micrometer... If you zero one perfectly, you can detect differences in the .0001" -.0002" differences on a surface... With a straight edge and shim you can detect .0005 or so.
I love your videos, but will also have to add to the woodworkers' comments here. It is important to have a flat stone when sharpening plane irons and chisels. Especially for smoothing planes, you typically only want the SLIGHTEST camber to your cutting edge. A dished stone will exaggerate the camber too much.
Hello, i was gifted a Myabi a while back & have recently become interested in Japanese knifes, the maker's are amazing. Some of these knives are not only a tool but a work of art. I enjoy your videos but i do see alot more high end sharpeners doing the flattening. I know you've gotten to visit some of these master blacksmiths & sharpeners in Japan, what a awesome trip! What did you see the master sharpeners doing? Flattening or not? Did the question come up?
You have to make a decision - either it´s al lot material coming off while levelling, or the difference in height ist only one micron. You can´t have both. If it is indeed only one micron I have to level, I can level a thousand times for each millimeter stone height. If it´s more, I prematurely wear the stone, but gain better performance while sharpening. I level with the edge pro method - silicon carbide on a glass plate - and accept that the stones will last no longer than I will.
Point being that all the material removed while flattening can be used to sharpen, and you aren't actually sharpening any better (generally) after flattening
Quick devil’s advocate point here. Let’s say you forego the flattening...aren’t you just delaying the inevitable? At a certain point, every stone will become uncomfortably out of spec and you’ll eventually be removing that material anyway. Now instead of microscopic amounts, you’re dealing with thousands of an inch (which sounds small but that’s a LOT of material for a stone). I’m actually with you on this for the most part. I don’t obsess over flatness with my stones unless there’s an issue. But what are we talking about here? Instead of getting 20-30 years out of a stone (for most people), they’re now getting 15-20? I’ve seen some people who lap like absolute mental patients. Those people are *drastically* reducing their stone’s life. But I don’t think it’s a big deal if someone feels the need to flatten their stones a little more often than completely necessary. At the end of the day, you just need to know what ACTUALLY matters...and that’s adequate equipment with good technique.
If you use naniwa nagura stone several times directly during sharpening, the stones will not lose a flat surface so quickly and they will have to be made less flat. A flat surface is more important in 3k or more stones. Bester it was already necessary to make a flat, If the nagura does not remove black spots from the stone, then the flat surface is lost, and it's time to restore a flat surface. Nagura - good indicator is the need to make a stone flat.
i disagree, but as long as you are getting great results with what you are doing, keep at it. i get perfectly sharpened knives with my method, and that's what i am showing.
I love watching your videos with sharpening, it's hypnotizing. Your opinion about the how often to make a stone flat generally agree. We are sharpening 2-3 millimeters of steel. We need rather not a completely flat surface, but the absence of protruding parts in the stone. A small piece of hard flat stone or nagera removes it, and this is all that is needed. For this reason, often use of nagera or small flatting stone I think justified. But, more importantly, a stable grinding angle and no pressure when sharpening. Flatting the whole stone - rare procedure, use of something for smoothing scratches as often as necessary. The material of the stone is lost slightly, the comfort and quality of the sharpening increases, only pluses. This is just my opinion, based on my experience of sharpening. In the ideal. How often stones make flat(whole stone) - this is a good question. (I use an auto-translator so sorry for the inaccuracies) The main question is what gives us a flat stone. During sharpening, on the stone are created scratches and irregularities, they do not give a smooth cutting edge, nagura makes edges of scratches and irregularities smoother and this allows you to get a good cutting edge. All ends with the fact that we have not a flat surface, but many rounded irregularities, and this is just the sign of the need to make a stone flat. Frequent alignment is necessary for soft stones, 3+к stones It's almost polished and there we need a flat surface without irregularities. Small flatting stone make it perfectly. The thinner the stone, the greater the requirement for the surface. But, fine-grained stones lose material more slowly, and often nagura using or small flatting stone does not lead to a rapid loss of material and the flat surface remains flat longer. . f you not make flatting, the material of the stone is not lost, but in the end the quality of the sharpening can be seriously affected. It's all in the ideal. In a harsh reality - flutting does when already without him a good result is unattainable. And how often - the owner of the stone decides. On your channel it seemed to be a view of a flat and not flat stone, you checked only 1000 cerax? I would like to see the same video about your new cerax 404(and in general I'm interested in your opinion on this stone). First of all, did he remain as soft as before, my 404 loses a lot of material during sharpening. I hope the video on the new suehiro will be soon, very interesting how they work, especially 6+к stones. Best regards from Mother Russia.
Thank you I am really enjoying your channel. I am wood worker and pretty experienced with sharpening plane irons and chisels. We have always had it beat in our brains you must flatten your stones and I agree when you must have a perfectly flat back in a chisel and must have a perfect square edge on a plane iron. But what you are saying about the microns difference has me wondering if I really need to be so anal about it when sharpening the very micro bevels in tools every time. I really want to learn knife sharpening so thanks
He's talking about knives. Regular, double bevel knives. Plane tools require dead flat stones. This isn't a video about wood working, it's about kitchen knives. This information does not apply to wood working.
Seems to be a lot of robust discussion about this one; that's good. It's actually pretty easy to quantify how much dish there is in a stone, and how much material was removed during a flattening, and even how flat it really is afterwards. You use a measuring instrument called a dial test indicator, clamped on a stand (or set in a drill press) set at the correct height for the stone, and draw the stone under it across a flat surface (piece of glass or a machine table); just read off the numbers. They were developed for machinists and they really are that accurate. You can buy a cheap digital or analogue micron DTI for less than 100 USD (don't ask me why they still call a digital one a DTI, when there's no dial though). You could even measure a stone before and after a couple of uses and determine how much material is really being used and how even your usage pattern really is (and if your sufficiently demented, arithmetically predict how many uses you'll get before the stone wears away).
If you have dead flat surface like a table saw or a jointer just lay the stone face down to see any gaps (or if it rocks back and forth). A metal straight edge will work too; lay it across the whetstone corner to corner diagonally and look for any airspace between the stone and the edge (the ruler from a combination square would be perfect). It's overkill to measure it with a dial indicator. Just setting the dial indicator up would be time consuming (plus the error from movement or play in the setup).
@@ongobo23 , the comment was in the context of all the commentary on what can and can't be measured and what does and doesn't matter. I agree that your method allows you to see that it is or isn't planar and there are a variety of easy ways to check this, but not measure it. Setting up a DTI to do this is pretty quick (about 2 minutes), easy and accurate, especially if you set it up in a drill press. Personally, I wouldn't ever bother. I just flatten my stones every 8 or 10 uses, but some of the comments would make you think it's a matter of life or death to some folk. I was half expecting someone to ask me how to get angstrom scale measurement accuracy (which is a lot more expensive and time consuming).
I hate flattening my stone, honestly I do. Simply because of all the material I lose but.... I just don't agree. I use a lot of scandi grinds, and it's imperative that my stone be absolutely flat. When I'm convexing, it's not near as important. I think I'll keep flattening my stone. Awesome video, thanks for sharing.
I learned alot from you on this video, Thank you! And if I may share my opinion when it comes to accelerating the degradation of sharpening stones, I have always used Shapu and Naiwa Stones, and felt that it dishonors the hard work and craft of the men who make these stones by hand. Great care has been given in the making, great care should be demonstrated in the ownership. I know they probably don't mind because they would sell more, but there is a Zen to the whole process that I experience I could be coming off seemingly hyperbolic about all this, but would you not care a great deal for a Koto Sword? Same goes for the tools to care for it. End Rant
I have an idea for a video. Take two identical stones and sharpen them both the same number of times. Flatten one stone after every sharpening and flatten one at he end. Then compare the two. I'm curious as to how much difference it makes.
Hi Ricky (im sorry if i spelt it wrong), i really like your videos. I think youre a great knife sharpener, you've got real form. I think you have stated really sound points here. Yup flattening really hogs off the material. I get that point. I also get that your kitchen knife with its curved edge is not going to pick up that discrepency especially if you sharpen by hand. I mean if your presenting angle raises by a tenth of a degree then your already presenting a curved edge into a dished stone surface. But what about people who use their waterstones with honing guides to sharpen chisels and plane irons? One may not notice by eye, a 1 micron camber in the leading edge but the actual burr creation from the two planes meeting will pick it up. In order to get a sharp flat edge, you need to have two flat planes meet without a radius. So a dished stone will compromise the planes even by a micron which will then create either an incomplete burr across the edge or an inconsistently thick burr. This is where my conflict arises. I would love to not flatten, and not hog off so much material, but my woodworking tools dont sharpen so well on a un-flat surface. So can you advise me on what you recommend in this particular scenario?
Maybe use one side of your stones for knives (unflattened), and the other side for chisels and the like (flattened)? If you do a lot of chisel sharpening, then the stone will get a lot of flattening. If you do a lot of knife sharpening, it won't. It seems like it would help, since you would not have to flatten every time, only when you are going sharpen woodworking stuff. The only concern I'd have is if the stone was dished on the knife side, you might want to use something that supports the dished (therefore thinner than the ends) area from underneath when you are sharpening on the woodworking side. Your pressure shouldn't be so heavy to crack the stone, but just something to consider.
yeah i agree with you. but i use my whetstones fr tools. i am not a knife sharpener, i hardly sharpen knives. if i did then i would not bother with flattening.
If you need any more persuasion - the concept of a flat stone is to keep a perfect and consistent angle between the knife or tool edge and the surface of the stone. That requires a stable stone, so no movement as will happen if you use a soft mount to prevent rocking, no rocking or flexing of your water bath set-up, and a perfect grip start to finish. There are mechanical set-ups on UA-cam that will achieve that, but that takes away the pleasure of hand working your sharpening. If you achieve a razor edge and do not disrupt the profile of the knife you're doing OK; achieving the objective Tools such as chisels will be the exception, but then that's a different type of damage - one I keep to oil stones...
Technically if you wanted to measure the difference I can think of a few ways of doing it. The best would be a machine ruler and running feeler gauges between the machine ruler and the dip, but I definitely agree perfectly flattering a stone each time for knife sharpening would me a massive waste of time for little to no return. Unless my stones are showing signs of heavy use I don't flatten them. It's really fairly easy to see when your stone needs flattening if you sharpen a lot of knives, but even if your a beginner just go by the knife not sharpening evenly across the entire blade surface as a indicator. (In example shaves hair at the tip and the base but not the middle)
White I agree that you do not need to flatten stones every time; and while i flatten my stones almost every time, one must remember that if there is only 1 micron difference between highest and lowest point on the stone, then all you are taking off is 1 micron of the thickness of the stone. I had the same naniwa 10K super stone for about 11 years now. It is very soft, it melts like butter on my DMT flattening plate, but it is still 90% of the thickness it was 10 years ago. But i will repeat 1000 times over, a good technique of sharpening is far more important than perfectly flat stone.
Hmmm, I'm thinking that the dish in the stone is there because the knives have a curve, it only makes sense to leave it alone, and let the dish match the curve as much as reasonable. As is say: "Dish Happens"
I use Waterstones to sharpen tools (e.g. chisel, planes etc) and I've definitely seen them dish. I think that's because of the width of the tools, their hardness, and how much I'm rubbing?
Exelent video i own king de luxe 1000,cerax and shapton 1000 and yes shapton is the fastest is my favorite. I would like to ask you something : It is possible to rectify my Shapton 1000 with one Shapton 320 or 120 if i buy one ,or I have to buy a special rectify stone like naniwa 220 or 120 ? Thanks
I can see your logic for knives but for blades used in wood working planes a flat stone is essential. A smoothing plane relies on having a flat stone so that the edge on the plane blade can be honed to a final shape where the corners are 1 or 2 thou further back so you can get a shaving that tappers to nothing on each side. That way you can smooth a surface without having edge lines.All the best.
Back in the day woodworkers used oil stones. They didn't flatten them. If you can find old used stone you will see they have a big hollow all along the length of the stone. That happened because it conformed to the movement used when sharpening by hand. The result was a slight convex edge on plane irons an chisel, which is not a bad thing, it's like a microbevel, but better. Their tools were sharp, and their work was sharp as well.
Does this advice apply equally when sharpening chisels and plane irons, which, by all accounts, must be ground as true as possible? In sharpening those edges, I commonly see a lot of slurry coming off the stones.
After your video, it makes sense. But that seems to go for knives. I use my stones for plane irons. The stones need to be flat to make a straight edge on my irons. If I am miss informed please correct me.
hi ryky, i've been using a king combo 1000/6000 stone. lately the 6000 grit has been getting "dirty" so i use the rust eraser you recommended to clear it up (finer one). The stone started building black bumps cover up the whole stone. i tried using a nagura as well and it did not help. If you know what they are and how to remove that would be a great help. Thanks you
and. having the correct stones for what you want to do, having less stones and asking too much of them will ultimately wear your stones out faster and wear your arms and time out faster. if you take short cuts you're in for a bad time.
Very nice video. Well, i am happy, that i dont buy yet a flattering stone - its cost a lot of money. But i use my Nagura Stones very often - after every sharpening. I dont know, that i am doing right or wrong, but after using Nagura the stone is for me more "comfortable" to use. I dont know how i can name that thing, maybe that came from my psychics - i just like to have got a nice an clean stone... But after all - if i am sharpening knives 1 or 2 times in month, it will take years after they becomes useless.
yes is true this i you use a lattering diamond latt you waiste your money is better the nagura is waths or cam rom in the set always and this is why thanks nice tecnique
Here's the issue Ryky, and I am with you 100% on this, and it's also OBVIOUS to anyone who actually has experience in this domain. We lack critical thinking in our society. You coming to this conclusion for yourself required critical thinking. Most people lack that capacity or will. If they did think about it critically, they would come to the same conclusion. It's easier to exalt a supposed expert, often a total charlatan, or "fake expert" at best, and take their words as gospel. The fact of the matter is, for ordinary knives, double bevel knives, most people will not need to flatten a whetstone. Obviously woodworkers and other plane tools will benefit from making sure the stone is flat every time .Everything is a cost-benefit balance and in this case it's obviously not worth it or needed to flatten stones. But I see a lot of silly ideas being promoted, like over sharpening too.
Thank you, i feel the same as you do. What is the name of the stone with which you are cleaning the whestone? Is it Nagura stone or something else? If yes, what could be the grid of this (nagura) stone?
People are getting far to technical here with the 1-2 micron comment it wasn’t meant to be scientific and exact he is just stating it’s barely any difference! I have a Cerax 1k stone, normal size and I flatten it when I notice the edge isn’t making even contact whether it’s 5 or 25 knives. I’ve done a couple hundred knives on the Cerax 1k stone and it’s still over a centimeter thick. It’s impossible to say every ten knives or every 3 knives because it’s all relative to how bad the edge was the hardness of the steel the ability of the sharpener etc. my advice is use as much of the stone as you can and when you feel like your making uneven contact flatten it.
THANK YOU!
Agreed. If you are sharpening or stropping a knife on a whetstone use every inch of the stone. That is what help flatten and evenly wears the stone. Only use a nagura stone when you need to clean metal shavings off of the surface of the whetstone or you need to create a thick slurry to have a more aggressive sharpening or stropping session. Practice!
But still, it is important to deliver correct information. If you worry about it, you can just don't say it.
For only a few bucks, a straight edge and a set of feeler gauges would give a precise answer. I have a King 1k/6k that has seen only light use sharping plane irons, and I just checked to find that a 0.002" feeler gauge slid into the dish with ease.
So I guess I need to flatten because my dish is an order-of-magnitude deeper than his?
Yup. Also, the flattening is only needed for plane irons and such. It IS SUPER IMPORTANT that your stone is flat, within reason. For knife blades and such, it doesn't really matter. Like the post says, flaten it when your blades aren't making good contact. If you're sharpening a blade with a reference surface, such as a chisel or plane, then yeah, keep it in mind, but don't get obsessive...
I'm a newbie and have been looking for what I need to get started and the variety and combinations out there are daunting. Everyone has something they tell you you need to have and I almost gave up completely when I saw that the stones needed to be flattened. I was ready to just find someone to fix my knives for me. Seeing your videos have eased my fears and I thank you.
1:20. What a humble man. Kudos for you mate. But I disagree... I think you are exactly the person we should be getting our tips from.
I never flattened my stones until I got into woodworking - that’s when I realized how important it was to have a flat stone - but that’s only because you’re sharpening flat faced chisels and plane blades that need to be as close to flat as you can get it, because those blades are responsible for shaving the thinnest amounts of wood fiber you possibly can at times to get very precise joints and fits
But aside from that - I agree, I personally feel like my sharpening is more intuitive and natural once I break in a stone and get my own personalized groove In my knife stones
Love your videos man 🤙🤙
The main reason I love watching people here on youtube who doesn’t sell products or endorsed by some snake oil products... just plain honest tips and reviews without the BS sales jargon...
TY!!!
First video I've ever watched, he couldn't have said it in more layman's terms and simplified everything.
Thank you. I get a feeling that you use so much common sense it's soothing.
From a 66 year old engineer... You are bang on. People making money. You talk alot of sence on your videos. Keep up the good work.
sense*
@@kaiser00hans wow slight mistake. Bet your a bundle of fun.
you're*
You are so right. Ive used stones where you can even see the belly and I can still get it sharp even though then I believe i should flatten it. I have gotten used stones like that and sharpened knives just to see how the stone was. Not big kitchen knives but pocket knives so in this case I was not using the entire stone but I did however sharpen the knife. Its nice to see people not being wasteful and conserve what they have. Mainly just not filling peoples heads with missinformation. You mainly flatten a stone with your sharpening and using every inch of the stone. Anyways I love your videos there very informative and I really enjoy watching them and appreciate how open minded you are about topics and remain unbias even though everyone is to a degree and thats fine. People also need to have opinions and in this day and age with all the commenters I think too many you tubers have to walk on eggshells or at least they do.
Same. I have a cheap stone with quite an impressive bow to it, but can still get a hair whittling edge. Funny to see some of the elitists in the comments
THANK YOU FOR AN AWESOME AND TIME/MONEY SAVING VIDEO!!!
I don't care how old it is! I've probably sharpened about every "type" of cutting edge there is... AND I've gotten by with just about any reasonable sharpening instrument for the task. From taking an "EZ Lap" Diamond grit sharpening rod to axes and chisels, to needle-files for the micro-serrations on a Ginsu set I found in a thrift store for a dollar!
I almost never flatten a stone! I only periodically bother "resurfacing" the stones in my dremel, drill, and bench-grinder collections. (Angle grinder stones just don't last long enough around here to bother)
The REAL answer to a truly sharp and consistent edge on any cutter or blade is Technique. You have to "get a feel" and "tune your ears" for the job. It takes time and practice. That's not to say that there's absolutely no purpose served in flattening, either. BECAUSE if you paid attention, you'd see clearly that I specifically ALMOST never flatten a stone.
On that, it comes down to "making the judgment call"... Every particular sharpener and sharpening shop(?) is going to be a bit different. SO everyone's personal experience is also going to be a bit different, and we (general knife and care enthusiasts) should be able to take our growing knowledge and balance what the purpose is for flattening with the expense (between effort, time, and stone-material lost) to find our own terms for flattening our stones. I think that's really what this video is about, even if it's not specifically said in just so many terms.
AGAIN, RYKY, Thank you so much, for working toward that "use your better judgment" and giving a bit of a push back on those "expert sales people". I hate the worry that "teaching" always has to come with some ulterior motivation to sell me something. ;o)
Murray explains in one of his videos how he uses the whole surface. If he sees a high spot he focuses on that spot to level it out. Like you said he is a master, I'm sure it takes a lot of skill to sharpen that well while maintaining a flat stone from sharpening on different edges each time. That being said I've tried to keep it flat but it is natural for me to move back into the center. I'm sure I will learn though. Great videos, I've enjoyed seeing and hearing about all the different stones and knives you have the privilege to get your hands on.
Very good solid information for knife sharpening. You certainly do not need a flat surface to sharpen most knives. Flattening stones regularly is only slightly more critical when sharpening flat edges such as chisels & plane iron/blades for very fine wood working.
Great video mate! I absolutely agree with you. The first time I ever needed to flatten my stone was after 5 years, and that's because I was sharpening a scandi ground knife and needed a flat surface; otherwise I wouldn't have done it
100%
Love and appreciate all your videos thanks for all your hard work
Love to listen to an honest, totally transparent (more than Casper the Ghost), humble guy!
Thank you! I just picked up Shapton pro 320, 1000 and 5000 stones for a sweet deal to learn whetstone sharpening, and I was about to drop $90 on an atoma 140 or 400. I'll save my money
I knew it! Now I finally used one of those last night & not only did it just not seem right & all that but the amount of material I lost was freaking nuts. Long story short I went to look into this & found this video. Thank you brother for the video, it was helpful
I learned to sharpen from Murray Carter's videos. I tend to agree that you really don't need to flatten every time. Also, I suck compared to Murray and you, and I don't sharpen NEAR the number of knives you guys do, however, I do get more than acceptable results. I suppose if a dish started giving me problems, I wouldn't mind flattening, it just hasn't happened yet.
I feel like if you wait to flatten, or if you flatten every time the material you take off would end up being the same. Keep up the good work!
Hey Ryky,,,, Being a beginner in the Splash/Go, wet stone community,,,, I see you as the “Ip man “ of the sharpening/ wet stone Universe. You might laugh,, but even your demeanor , character and ethics really match. I Greatly appreciate this video and the one on “the burr”,,,!!!!! These short tutorials are really helpful.
His Blessings,,,, Joshua
Humble, honest, and fair assessment. I have wondered about the small dip in one of my stones, the effect upon a knife sharpened across it, and the consequent need for flattening the stone. Should the need arise, the example here shows how to flatten with a diamond stone and the reason to use a Nagura stone afterwards. Very useful information. Danke.
Great video! And thanks for turning me onto Murray Carter. That dude is the real deal.
hahah. yeah, he's pretty impressive.
To clean the embedded metal from my 1,000 and 12,000 grit ceramic stone, I use a wet sponge scrub away the metal. before during or after. If done during it can remove the metal and expose the sharp abrasive for continued efficient sharpening
Thanks dude. I just almost paid $17 for one of those stupid little cleaner stones.
Hes right, untill you get into custom carpentry sharpening hand chisels and block planes. Then a flat stone is absolutly a must. I cook and do woodwork. If i was just sharpening knived i wouldnt be so anal about flat stones
Exactly. The only thing I'll say is not just block planes. Any flat backed blade basically. This includes all chisels, try and jointer planes, etc. Even then, I don't flatten every single use, but maybe after three or four blades, and I run a 1000 grit diamond plate to take off the least amount from my stone. I've never had a nagura though, until yesterday when my new dabato md 100 came in. Any tips on the use of the nagura with this splash stone? Should it be splashed or soaked, or should only the dabato be splashed? All instructions were in Japanese so I'm clueless. That being said I've sharpened two plane blades on it and love love love the stone.
WOW! I also just spit on my stone. Cool to see your setup, stone holder and all.
I really like this video (saw this video one or two months ago, maybe on your other channel). But the best tip you gave for maintaining a whetstone is to use the Rust Erasers instead of the nagura stone. Thx for that.
exactly, compared to Nagura they are much more affordable :)
What is the difference between a Nagura and a Rust Eraser? I bought the Rust Erasers that Ryky recommended and they do a very nice job of cleaning up the stones, but are they so soft that they remove little to no material?
Also, I just noticed the description on the link on the Amazon page says to soak the Rust Eraser for 10 minutes... is that true? I couldn't tell from the packaging, because it's all in Japanese!
The Nagura won't last as long as the Rust Eraser will. I don't know how long my Rust Eraser will last, but I bet I will still have it in 5 years.
Both Nagura and Rust Eraser are suppose to remove the metal from the stone. They are not designed for removing the stone material itself. So, you cannot flatten a stone with them.
You need to soak both the whetstone and the Rust Eraser. I reckon the Japanese instructions on the packaging aren't really useful for this kind of application, since the Rust Eraser's main purpose isn't really to clean up whetstones.
Got it... thanks! I haven't been soaking my rust eraser, and it has been cleaning my stones nicely... I'll have to let them soak and see how they do (probably easier on the stones, which has already been pretty easy).
I've been collecting and sharpening blades since I was a pre-teen and now I'm older than that :) and I agree with you 100%
thank you !
Love your honest videos!! Im new to all of this and your videos have helped so much!
Thank you for this video, I just got my first whetstone and was wonderring what about maintaining the stone. Thanks for the vid!
I bought myself cheap diamond flattener, I plan to keep it untouched until I see a noticeable dent in my stones. That was a common sense to me.
I'm glad suehiro stones come with nagura now. I didn't know what they are for really, I thought they are flattening stones as well, now I know thanks.
I like no BS videos. Subscribed ✊🔫🇺🇸
welcome.
@@Burrfection what freedom said. I was wondering though.. when you DO flatten a stone.. have you ever had a stone become "glazed"? (Particularly lower grit / coarser stones)? Glazed meaning that the stone itself is like polished smooth and won't really sharpen anything until it's redressed (in case that term isn't one you've heard or something) - I recently had this happen to me with one of my stones and was wondering: If you have had this happen to you (or have heard of it) how do you deal with this? Do you use the tempered glass / SiC powder that everyone else seems to recommend?
Awesome video man!! Very informative. You earned my subscription 👊 much appreciated
Thanks for this video it's alway interesting when you throw tips from the masters. I guess that by being fluid on the stone and by having an equal grind everywhere on the surface then you don't really need maintenance.
This video was VERY helpful! Thank you.
1000% agree with his advice, esp since it’s applying to knifes almost solely, and the curvature of knives creates a contact point so small at the stone that it does not matter whatsoever to be perfect flat when it comes to sharpening a curved edge (there IS obviously a limit in that tolerance, duh, BUT that limit is nowhere near what most ppl believe it to be when sharpening knives..)
If you need a machined dead flat surface on another tool other than a knife, well then yeah flatten before for that use definitely. But for day to day knife sharpening it just is verrrrry rarely (if ever...) needed
Cheers
Thank you!
thank you so much as i use different grades of sandpaper,but going to 1000 and 6000 grit and now nagura stone.
Explains why my .5 micron tomatoes slices are curved like a crasont
No wonder why i felt something is very off after I lapped 6k king with diamond plate but didnt use nagura afterward. I saw marks n scratches on my knife and raised my eyebrows left to right questioning if its the nature of lapping or I did something wrong. It cuts still but felt very toothy not smooth n somewhat polished but lots of marks. Yes it shocked me how much stuffs go to waste from lapping.
"Do not forget nagura after lapping" i'll keep repeating until it roots in my brain cell. Thx Ryky🤙🏻🤙🏻
Flattening after is the same as flattening before a new use. In effect you would be flattening twice before using the stone once.
Thank you for clarifying this fact!!
While i would not care about the flatness of a stone for a knife, I will very much care about the stone flatness when it comes to chisels and to a lesser extent plane blades. They are considerably smaller and due to how they are sharpened they will more or less take the shape of the stone.
I agree.
Yes, I tend to agree that you do not need to flatten the stone each time. I think that makes little sense and you eat through the synthetics pretty quickly, faster than their normal rate of deterioration. I could not help myself and had to write a little 'Synthetics vs. Jnats,' thing. I honestly do not know why chefs and folks sharpening beautiful and expensive kitchen knives bother with synthetic stones. Its like buying a Ferrari and putting crap tires on it, or spending a fortune on a custom tailored suit only to go cheap with fake leather shoes.
Totally Off Topic: (do not read ahead unless you want to talk about Japanese Natural Whetstones or "Jnats" as we call them for short)
I know one thing - this video demonstrates a few reasons why I use nothing but Jnats. We do use nagura, tomo nagura and Mikawa Shiro nagura as correcting stones but mostly they are used now to raise slurries. Rarely do I feel the need to flatten a Jnat and that's using them primarily for a considerably more precise job, razor honing and restoration. Knives do amazing on some Suita, and Tsushima stones. I just think so many knives people out there are simply unaware of these natural stone options. In fact, if Jnats did not exist, I wouldn't even hone or sharpen. With Jnats the stone is at least as valuable as the subject being honed or sharpened. In the case of Jnats you should use an atoma VERY SELDOM. The precious Ozuku, Shobu or Nakayama material is worth keeping so much of it. I have been trying to get knife guys to make the jump over to a Jnat. Those that have are RAVING about them. I make very little money selling them too. I might be too honest and straight forward, but I don't care because my reward is actually making people happy with the Jnats they buy from me. They last much longer, retain their value, and you need not spend so much time and money on flattening stuff. Try selling your used synthetic stone in a few years. If you've regularly used it its worth next to nothing. The same Jnat? Still has most of the stone you started with and is worth at least what you paid for it in most cases provided it is the REAL deal. Synthetics you spend a lot of money over time. Jnat you spend a lot of money in one shot, but you don't need to spend it again. I have several stones here that are multigenerational and I KNOW I will pass them on to my next of kin who will likely be able to sell them for a profit. I'm not leaving anything behind if I am spending the money on the synthetics.
Glad I watched this before I used my 3 new stones.
Great video, Ryky. Unless you have a friend to show you the ropes, you're likely to make mistakes early on in the learning process, especially when there's a lot of conflicting advice and a lot of stuff you can buy that purports to solve your problems. They dangle these $300 diamond plates in front of you, and then you see folks lapping stones on glass and sandpaper, on other stones, on cinder blocks and patches of cement and you say hold on a minute here and you keep your wallet in your pocket. If you want to give me permission not to obsess about stone flatness or spend a pile of money on it I'll accept with gratitude.
If you'd like you actually find out how deep the dishing is, you can use a depth micrometer to find out how deep the dishing is. most can read out to the thousandth, even the cheaper ones.
Flattening stones is important for wood workers but for sharpening kitchen knives not so much.
To sharpen a plane iron the stone has to be very flat because it has to take shavings that often are just a few thousands of a mm thick. But even for that, I don´t have to flatten harder stones every time. A King stone, yes but a Chosera, a Shapton or the much harder oil stones will sharpen quite a few chisels and plane irons before they´re not flat enough anymore. All that doesn´t matter much for kitchen knives. The double sided King stone I use in the kitchen has worn about 2mm in the middle now and I´m thinking about flattening it just to make it look nice again. It still works perfectly.
This is amazing info. Thank you!
I find this topic a little unusual. My dad taught me how he sharpened his knives and trust me they were very sharp. We used and old Craftsman two sided oil stone. We sharpened so many knives it had at least a 1/8" belly in it. We had no problem shaving with our knives. I see no need to flatten at all for knives. Now if you're sharpening chisels or plane blades then you should keep your stone flat but not every time.
When I sharpen on my kuromaku stones I move the blade around like virtuovice does. It minimizes dishing
Being new to knife sharpening ,but not new to sharpening other types of tools for my former trade (retired) . Thanks for many very good videos and tips. Lots of info and I've learned a lot from your videos .
BUT , after purchasing a Nanina super stone 3000 grit 10MM . I found, after the 1st use, My New, once used whetstone, is not even close to flat . So bought a Naniwa flattening stone (which is not close to flat either , I can rock it on a decent straight edge i own) .
I guess that whetstone is anywhere from 1/64"- 1/125" off . I think that is more than a micron or 2 . Even the 20MM Naniwa whetstones (both Super Stones ,400 and 800) I also got at the same time where out of flat .
So I guess there are times when flatting is needed .....
When you see light, between the straight edge and the stone and the center(of the stone) is higher then either end of the stone, I would guess you can not sharpen anything well, if you try using the whole stone . I believe it makes keeping the angle of the knife, level all the way though the pass .
Somewhat flat should be good to go . But as I worked with tolerances in the 1K's of an inch, It can make a difference .
Yup, I am picky about things like this , and after reading and seeing all those great reviews , I bought a few . Disappointed is a word that comes to mind .
Despite the issues with the stones I have . I have been able to get to a good place getting a sharp knife . I give credit to pointers on the videos I seen here and a few other sites. Practice , practice ,practice.
Awesome vid and great info... but I bet I could measure it with a Mitutoyo Depth Micrometer... If you zero one perfectly, you can detect differences in the .0001" -.0002" differences on a surface... With a straight edge and shim you can detect .0005 or so.
I love your videos, but will also have to add to the woodworkers' comments here. It is important to have a flat stone when sharpening plane irons and chisels. Especially for smoothing planes, you typically only want the SLIGHTEST camber to your cutting edge. A dished stone will exaggerate the camber too much.
yes i agree with Kevin, I think your great method not really made for luthiers, But a big thanks dude for this tutorial
Hello,
i was gifted a Myabi a while back & have recently become interested in Japanese knifes, the maker's are amazing. Some of these knives are not only a tool but a work of art. I enjoy your videos but i do see alot more high end sharpeners doing the flattening. I know you've gotten to visit some of these master blacksmiths & sharpeners in Japan, what a awesome trip! What did you see the master sharpeners doing? Flattening or not? Did the question come up?
You have to make a decision - either it´s al lot material coming off while levelling, or the difference in height ist only one micron. You can´t have both. If it is indeed only one micron I have to level, I can level a thousand times for each millimeter stone height. If it´s more, I prematurely wear the stone, but gain better performance while sharpening.
I level with the edge pro method - silicon carbide on a glass plate - and accept that the stones will last no longer than I will.
It was not only me who was uncomfortable while watching it.
Point being that all the material removed while flattening can be used to sharpen, and you aren't actually sharpening any better (generally) after flattening
Quick devil’s advocate point here. Let’s say you forego the flattening...aren’t you just delaying the inevitable? At a certain point, every stone will become uncomfortably out of spec and you’ll eventually be removing that material anyway. Now instead of microscopic amounts, you’re dealing with thousands of an inch (which sounds small but that’s a LOT of material for a stone). I’m actually with you on this for the most part. I don’t obsess over flatness with my stones unless there’s an issue. But what are we talking about here? Instead of getting 20-30 years out of a stone (for most people), they’re now getting 15-20? I’ve seen some people who lap like absolute mental patients. Those people are *drastically* reducing their stone’s life. But I don’t think it’s a big deal if someone feels the need to flatten their stones a little more often than completely necessary. At the end of the day, you just need to know what ACTUALLY matters...and that’s adequate equipment with good technique.
If you use naniwa nagura stone several times directly during sharpening, the stones will not lose a flat surface so quickly and they will have to be made less flat. A flat surface is more important in 3k or more stones.
Bester it was already necessary to make a flat, If the nagura does not remove black spots from the stone, then the flat surface is lost, and it's time to restore a flat surface.
Nagura - good indicator is the need to make a stone flat.
i disagree, but as long as you are getting great results with what you are doing, keep at it. i get perfectly sharpened knives with my method, and that's what i am showing.
I love watching your videos with sharpening, it's hypnotizing. Your opinion about the how often to make a stone flat generally agree.
We are sharpening 2-3 millimeters of steel. We need rather not a completely flat surface, but the absence of protruding parts in the stone.
A small piece of hard flat stone or nagera removes it, and this is all that is needed. For this reason, often use of nagera or small flatting stone I think justified.
But, more importantly, a stable grinding angle and no pressure when sharpening.
Flatting the whole stone - rare procedure, use of something for smoothing scratches as often as necessary.
The material of the stone is lost slightly, the comfort and quality of the sharpening increases, only pluses.
This is just my opinion, based on my experience of sharpening.
In the ideal.
How often stones make flat(whole stone) - this is a good question. (I use an auto-translator so sorry for the inaccuracies)
The main question is what gives us a flat stone.
During sharpening, on the stone are created scratches and irregularities, they do not give a smooth cutting edge, nagura makes edges of scratches and irregularities smoother and this allows you to get a good cutting edge.
All ends with the fact that we have not a flat surface, but many rounded irregularities, and this is just the sign of the need to make a stone flat.
Frequent alignment is necessary for soft stones, 3+к stones It's almost polished and there we need a flat surface without irregularities.
Small flatting stone make it perfectly.
The thinner the stone, the greater the requirement for the surface. But, fine-grained stones lose material more slowly, and often nagura using or small flatting stone does not lead to a rapid loss of material and the flat surface remains flat longer. . f you not make flatting, the material of the stone is not lost, but in the end the quality of the sharpening can be seriously affected.
It's all in the ideal.
In a harsh reality - flutting does when already without him a good result is unattainable. And how often - the owner of the stone decides.
On your channel it seemed to be a view of a flat and not flat stone, you checked only 1000 cerax? I would like to see the same video about your new cerax 404(and in general I'm interested in your opinion on this stone). First of all, did he remain as soft as before, my 404 loses a lot of material during sharpening. I hope the video on the new suehiro will be soon, very interesting how they work, especially 6+к stones.
Best regards from Mother Russia.
appreciate the well thought out explanation.
Thank you I am really enjoying your channel. I am wood worker and pretty experienced with sharpening plane irons and chisels. We have always had it beat in our brains you must flatten your stones and I agree when you must have a perfectly flat back in a chisel and must have a perfect square edge on a plane iron. But what you are saying about the microns difference has me wondering if I really need to be so anal about it when sharpening the very micro bevels in tools every time. I really want to learn knife sharpening so thanks
He's talking about knives. Regular, double bevel knives. Plane tools require dead flat stones. This isn't a video about wood working, it's about kitchen knives. This information does not apply to wood working.
Fair advise for knives, not sure I'd want to be working with anything other than a pure flat surface for honing my straight razors though.
Seems to be a lot of robust discussion about this one; that's good. It's actually pretty easy to quantify how much dish there is in a stone, and how much material was removed during a flattening, and even how flat it really is afterwards. You use a measuring instrument called a dial test indicator, clamped on a stand (or set in a drill press) set at the correct height for the stone, and draw the stone under it across a flat surface (piece of glass or a machine table); just read off the numbers. They were developed for machinists and they really are that accurate. You can buy a cheap digital or analogue micron DTI for less than 100 USD (don't ask me why they still call a digital one a DTI, when there's no dial though). You could even measure a stone before and after a couple of uses and determine how much material is really being used and how even your usage pattern really is (and if your sufficiently demented, arithmetically predict how many uses you'll get before the stone wears away).
If you have dead flat surface like a table saw or a jointer just lay the stone face down to see any gaps (or if it rocks back and forth). A metal straight edge will work too; lay it across the whetstone corner to corner diagonally and look for any airspace between the stone and the edge (the ruler from a combination square would be perfect). It's overkill to measure it with a dial indicator. Just setting the dial indicator up would be time consuming (plus the error from movement or play in the setup).
@@ongobo23 , the comment was in the context of all the commentary on what can and can't be measured and what does and doesn't matter. I agree that your method allows you to see that it is or isn't planar and there are a variety of easy ways to check this, but not measure it. Setting up a DTI to do this is pretty quick (about 2 minutes), easy and accurate, especially if you set it up in a drill press. Personally, I wouldn't ever bother. I just flatten my stones every 8 or 10 uses, but some of the comments would make you think it's a matter of life or death to some folk. I was half expecting someone to ask me how to get angstrom scale measurement accuracy (which is a lot more expensive and time consuming).
I hate flattening my stone, honestly I do. Simply because of all the material I lose but.... I just don't agree. I use a lot of scandi grinds, and it's imperative that my stone be absolutely flat. When I'm convexing, it's not near as important. I think I'll keep flattening my stone. Awesome video, thanks for sharing.
you have to do what works for you, personally. thanks for sharing
I learned alot from you on this video, Thank you! And if I may share my opinion when it comes to accelerating the degradation of sharpening stones, I have always used Shapu and Naiwa Stones, and felt that it dishonors the hard work and craft of the men who make these stones by hand. Great care has been given in the making, great care should be demonstrated in the ownership. I know they probably don't mind because they would sell more, but there is a Zen to the whole process that I experience I could be coming off seemingly hyperbolic about all this, but would you not care a great deal for a Koto Sword? Same goes for the tools to care for it. End Rant
Take your meds.
i do keep my stones pretty flat, because its hard to sharpen a yanagiba or deba if the stones arent flat
German Shepherd ears
at :50
good eye
Naaah, it was ALF the alien.
My Koda approves.
I would say fattening a stone every 7-10 times would seem reasonable but for all the in between use the other stone (forgot what its called)
As someone who has owned and handled many knives over the years, and has never owned a flattening stone, I have no idea what I'm talking about.
I have an idea for a video. Take two identical stones and sharpen them both the same number of times. Flatten one stone after every sharpening and flatten one at he end. Then compare the two. I'm curious as to how much difference it makes.
Hi Ricky (im sorry if i spelt it wrong), i really like your videos. I think youre a great knife sharpener, you've got real form. I think you have stated really sound points here. Yup flattening really hogs off the material. I get that point. I also get that your kitchen knife with its curved edge is not going to pick up that discrepency especially if you sharpen by hand. I mean if your presenting angle raises by a tenth of a degree then your already presenting a curved edge into a dished stone surface.
But what about people who use their waterstones with honing guides to sharpen chisels and plane irons? One may not notice by eye, a 1 micron camber in the leading edge but the actual burr creation from the two planes meeting will pick it up. In order to get a sharp flat edge, you need to have two flat planes meet without a radius. So a dished stone will compromise the planes even by a micron which will then create either an incomplete burr across the edge or an inconsistently thick burr.
This is where my conflict arises. I would love to not flatten, and not hog off so much material, but my woodworking tools dont sharpen so well on a un-flat surface.
So can you advise me on what you recommend in this particular scenario?
Maybe use one side of your stones for knives (unflattened), and the other side for chisels and the like (flattened)? If you do a lot of chisel sharpening, then the stone will get a lot of flattening. If you do a lot of knife sharpening, it won't. It seems like it would help, since you would not have to flatten every time, only when you are going sharpen woodworking stuff.
The only concern I'd have is if the stone was dished on the knife side, you might want to use something that supports the dished (therefore thinner than the ends) area from underneath when you are sharpening on the woodworking side. Your pressure shouldn't be so heavy to crack the stone, but just something to consider.
yeah i agree with you. but i use my whetstones fr tools. i am not a knife sharpener, i hardly sharpen knives. if i did then i would not bother with flattening.
Yeah, then you probably need to flatten regularly.
If you need any more persuasion - the concept of a flat stone is to keep a perfect and consistent angle between the knife or tool edge and the surface of the stone. That requires a stable stone, so no movement as will happen if you use a soft mount to prevent rocking, no rocking or flexing of your water bath set-up, and a perfect grip start to finish. There are mechanical set-ups on UA-cam that will achieve that, but that takes away the pleasure of hand working your sharpening. If you achieve a razor edge and do not disrupt the profile of the knife you're doing OK; achieving the objective Tools such as chisels will be the exception, but then that's a different type of damage - one I keep to oil stones...
what grit, hardness, of a nagrua stone do you recommend for a king 1000/6000
1000 grits
For 3000 - 6000 grit normally you get 1000 grit nagura stone for stone line Suehiro. So i guess 1000 grit is best for medium to fine grit stone
@Noble6 So does granite, but like granite it's not enough to affect anything unless in very large quantities.
i just used diamond stone 400grit and 1000 grit and it is good as new
Technically if you wanted to measure the difference I can think of a few ways of doing it. The best would be a machine ruler and running feeler gauges between the machine ruler and the dip, but I definitely agree perfectly flattering a stone each time for knife sharpening would me a massive waste of time for little to no return. Unless my stones are showing signs of heavy use I don't flatten them. It's really fairly easy to see when your stone needs flattening if you sharpen a lot of knives, but even if your a beginner just go by the knife not sharpening evenly across the entire blade surface as a indicator. (In example shaves hair at the tip and the base but not the middle)
If you sharpen straight razor's (aka cutthroat) should you flatten them before each use?
White I agree that you do not need to flatten stones every time; and while i flatten my stones almost every time, one must remember that if there is only 1 micron difference between highest and lowest point on the stone, then all you are taking off is 1 micron of the thickness of the stone. I had the same naniwa 10K super stone for about 11 years now. It is very soft, it melts like butter on my DMT flattening plate, but it is still 90% of the thickness it was 10 years ago. But i will repeat 1000 times over, a good technique of sharpening is far more important than perfectly flat stone.
can you link the brown nagura you use in the video?
Should I use a Sabitoru or nagura stone for cleaning my Venev diamond stones?
Hmmm, I'm thinking that the dish in the stone is there because the knives have a curve, it only makes sense to leave it alone, and let the dish match the curve as much as reasonable. As is say: "Dish Happens"
I use Waterstones to sharpen tools (e.g. chisel, planes etc) and I've definitely seen them dish. I think that's because of the width of the tools, their hardness, and how much I'm rubbing?
Exelent video i own king de luxe 1000,cerax and shapton 1000 and yes shapton is the fastest is my favorite.
I would like to ask you something : It is possible to rectify my Shapton 1000 with one Shapton 320 or 120 if i buy one ,or I have to buy a special rectify stone like naniwa 220 or 120 ?
Thanks
Can I use King Japanese Nagura Stone @ on my SHAPTON Ceramic KUROMAKU #320 or King @ and @? Thank You Sir #Question
Can I use the nagura dressing stone on all my shapton ceramic stones?
Sharpening stones used for speed skating blades MUST BE totally flat. Do you have a link for the flattening stone you use - large silver one ?
If you have a 300 grit King stone. Can you still use a atoma 400 as q flattener. I also have a nanaiwa professional range of stones
Keep the stones flat ist just sooo important...especially for razor knifes....
i think it only really matters when sharpening something like a deba. korin knifes is actually on your side on this one
Thank you!
I can see your logic for knives but for blades used in wood working planes a flat stone is essential. A smoothing plane relies on having a flat stone so that the edge on the plane blade can be honed to a final shape where the corners are 1 or 2 thou further back so you can get a shaving that tappers to nothing on each side. That way you can smooth a surface without having edge lines.All the best.
Back in the day woodworkers used oil stones. They didn't flatten them. If you can find old used stone you will see they have a big hollow all along the length of the stone. That happened because it conformed to the movement used when sharpening by hand. The result was a slight convex edge on plane irons an chisel, which is not a bad thing, it's like a microbevel, but better. Their tools were sharp, and their work was sharp as well.
Does the dressing stone as to be the same grit with my stone? Can you suggest a dressingg stone for a 8000 grit Zwilling stone.
What sharpening stones and Nagura stones do you recommend?
after cleaning my whetstone with sandpaper its become like mirror . its not sharpen like before what should ı do?
Hi, thanks for the information. what happens if I leave my whetstones permanently in water ? would it affect its performance?
Does this advice apply equally when sharpening chisels and plane irons, which, by all accounts, must be ground as true as possible? In sharpening those edges, I commonly see a lot of slurry coming off the stones.
Just kitchen knives, as mentioned. Single beveled knives and plane tools do require a flat sharpening surface
Which Nagura Stone are you using...I see that they come in different grits
I have a 1000 and 4000 sharpeningstone what nagura stone shall i buy??
After your video, it makes sense. But that seems to go for knives. I use my stones for plane irons. The stones need to be flat to make a straight edge on my irons. If I am miss informed please correct me.
nono, you are right. woodworking tools are VERY different. i'm ONLY addressing regular kitchen chef knives.
hi ryky, i've been using a king combo 1000/6000 stone. lately the 6000 grit has been getting "dirty" so i use the rust eraser you recommended to clear it up (finer one). The stone started building black bumps cover up the whole stone. i tried using a nagura as well and it did not help. If you know what they are and how to remove that would be a great help. Thanks you
and. having the correct stones for what you want to do, having less stones and asking too much of them will ultimately wear your stones out faster and wear your arms and time out faster. if you take short cuts you're in for a bad time.
Great video, I'm new to your channel, wish I found it sooner.
better late than never, welcome hitinui!
Very nice video. Well, i am happy, that i dont buy yet a flattering stone - its cost a lot of money. But i use my Nagura Stones very often - after every sharpening. I dont know, that i am doing right or wrong, but after using Nagura the stone is for me more "comfortable" to use. I dont know how i can name that thing, maybe that came from my psychics - i just like to have got a nice an clean stone... But after all - if i am sharpening knives 1 or 2 times in month, it will take years after they becomes useless.
yes is true this i you use a lattering diamond latt you waiste your money is better the nagura is waths or cam rom in the set always and this is why thanks nice tecnique
Here's the issue Ryky, and I am with you 100% on this, and it's also OBVIOUS to anyone who actually has experience in this domain. We lack critical thinking in our society. You coming to this conclusion for yourself required critical thinking. Most people lack that capacity or will. If they did think about it critically, they would come to the same conclusion. It's easier to exalt a supposed expert, often a total charlatan, or "fake expert" at best, and take their words as gospel. The fact of the matter is, for ordinary knives, double bevel knives, most people will not need to flatten a whetstone. Obviously woodworkers and other plane tools will benefit from making sure the stone is flat every time .Everything is a cost-benefit balance and in this case it's obviously not worth it or needed to flatten stones. But I see a lot of silly ideas being promoted, like over sharpening too.
But i thought for yanagiba, the whetstone should be flat because the uraoshi will not Properly if not flat?
So for a normal guy I should just use sandpaper if I ever need to flatten it before I lose all my knives
Thank you, i feel the same as you do. What is the name of the stone with which you are cleaning the whestone? Is it Nagura stone or something else? If yes, what could be the grid of this (nagura) stone?