Chrono Trigger will always have a place in my heart for Robo. I will always argue that Frog's and Robo's otherness always made those too feel a bit queer to me. I know Flea is problematic, however. It's definitely not a queer story or anything resembling representation.
Amazing video! I’m doing a project for school about Queerness in Video games and your video was a huge help. If my presentation could have been as long as I wanted, I would have played this entire video!
Growing up, I appreciated games like the Sims, Fable, and Elder Scrolls that let you romance whoever you wanted (for the most part). They let you explore it with it affecting little else during times when, well, most of the rest that you mentioned was going on
I don't think you meant it this way, but the section about NSFW games really did not come across well to me. While we are in the midst of an era of puritanism and 'should kink be allowed at pride' discussions on the internet, we as queer people don't need to be criticizing queer game developers for making what they want to see. It doesn't do anyone any good; when Game Jolt decided it didn't want NSFW content on its platform anymore, SFW queer games also got caught in the crossfire, because we will always be seen as too sexual whether we try to appease the straights or not. Good video otherwise, though. My deepest gaming desire is to play (or be given the budget to develop!!) a well written RPG where the protagonist is gay, not as a choice, but as a core part of his character. Meanwhile, the industry is still stuck on romance options.
I agree with you in regards to a need for non-optional gay protagonists in RPGs. I'm glad to see how many romance options we get, but yeah... I'd like to see myself in more than just "options". You know?
Ouf. I came here with a lot of enthusiasm and good will, and was with you most of the way, but you lost me big time with the 'normalize ourselves' argument. As a lesbian gamer, I find the majority of the gaming community doubly alienating in its ubiquity and intensity of sexism and homophobia, and getting hit with a 'stop sexualizing our sexuality!' argument in what I had anticipated to be a safely queer niche of gaming UA-cam-following a 'daddy' definition, even!-really took me by surprise. Since you quote heavily here from DA:I, permit me an analogy: that moment felt, honestly, exactly the way it felt when, after the game allowed me to flirt heavily with Cassandra, she told my Inquisitor in a tone of baffled disgust that she couldn't possibly date her because she was a woman: like a painfully 'normalizing' bait and switch from an environment that claimed that it was welcoming me to one that was explicitly excluding and insulting me. Now, I'm not familiar with the porny areas of Steam, so maybe in that section you're talking about something more specific than you mention explicitly, but the respectability-politics argument that if we look nice and clean the straights won't hurt us has never, actually, helped us, and worse, only serves to further marginalize the most vulnerable among us. At a moment of virulent resurgence of exactly the kind of violent homophobia you describe in your video as an artifact of the 90s-a time I do remember vividly, as it's when I was coming out as a teenager in conservative suburban America-what we need is not to apologize for the aspects of ourselves that straight culture finds distasteful, but to protect and defend and celebrate and nourish them with more passion and courage than ever. I wish you all the luck in the world growing this channel, but as you do, I really hope you can give some time to rethinking your position on 'normalizing ourselves'. Peace.
I appreciate the comment! And can i just say, even though we clearly disagree, I deeply appreciate you coming at this from an angle of education rather than aggression (which I've seen far too much of on the internet). I'll definitely be doing a lot of thinking about this further. Always willing to learn.
Yeah I kinda disagreed with that too. Straight porn is nearly everywhere in a lot of places like steam, so this just feels like a natural development that comes along with wider accessibility to gay men. (Can’t speak to queer women’s experience)
Yknow, this is probably a weird take to have in response to this video, but its made me realize that I can't really speak to how black/brown experiences are represented in games, because I can't really name much that is significant. I have like one anecdote about Resistance Fall of Man, and Miles Morales has a game. Makes me think i should rectify this. Because that bit about being shown in silence not feeling like representation really resonated with me.
It's been really interesting to read the comments for this video because it's almost a 50/50 split with people saying something very similar to what you mentioned or the complete opposite. Representation is something that, judging by the comments, is pretty specific and personal to each player.
@@filmotter my wife and I actually just had a conversation about this and she took the opposite opinion. Mainly cuz she doesn't like when the inclusion is the sole topic of that person's story. Like tokenism. So you right about that too, 😂.
You make some great points about queer representation that I did not consider until watching this. I think a lot of people could benefit from watching this video essay. Also, this literally made me laugh out loud: "The LGBTQIA+ community are individuals with nuance and depth just like the rest of the population... wild!"
no gay or bi reference in a game about gay and bi dudes wanting to smooch other gay and bi dudes is one hell of a red flag also it is both exciting that there was a mention of binders for goth dad but also it feels really awkward that a smol throway line _is_ that exciting simply because there is so little trans anything out there in the world that isn't tied to giving or receiving sexual abuse.
It's so cool that just a bit after this video came out, Bridget from Guilty Gear was confirmed to be a trans girl. I think she is one of the most positive representations of trans people in mainstream media, as Guilty Gear is a major franchise that has a lot more reach than some indie games. It's great to see such positive representation pop up in media these days.
When it comes to romance options the best I can think about is from Stardew Valley. Like helping Abigail figure out who she loves or helping another characters grandpa realize love isn't just A+B that it can be so much more
Oh I love that! I'll be honest, whenever I've played Stardew Valley, I never really engaged with the characters too much because I was so focused on my farm. But maybe I should explore some of those storylines again!
@@Jakky1013 Oh definitely! I have a lot of friends who have played for hundreds and hundreds of hours. It seems like the creator really poured a lot of time and love into creating it!
I think this a great, and well edited video. You make a good point, but I don't think there's anything wrong with gay games explicitly and only for gay people. A lot of games are sexuality agnostic (like Stellaris), other games definitely can use more standard representation of LGBTQ people. But explicitly gay games for gay people are great too, there are lots of straight games explicitly for straight (wo)men to consume (explicit content for straight men and straight women are usually very different like lesbian and gay games are). I go back and forth on how I feel about acceptability politics.
I understand what you mean! I've enjoyed an explicit game or two in my time for sure. I should have specified that I've seen people argue that games like that are valid forms of representation though, which I think is what I disagree with. I guess I could've been more clear about that in the video itself, though.
Yeah, for me, the importance of representation is that queer people can see themselves in media. I don’t care so much about putting it where straight people can see it too, even though that often means way more compromises in the storytelling. And I get that the goal is to have uncompromised queer characters in mainstream games, I'd rather have a dozen queer-created indie games that do it fantastically than one AAA game that technically meets some "good rep" criteria. Let's show the mainstream developers how to do it, and let's support each other and give each other the financial success that will make the AAA industry really sit up and take notice. Also, while there are certainly ways that queer content being optional in mainstream games can make the queerness feel inauthentic, it was still really weird to constantly see clips of Dorian from DAI when he was talking about "optional" queer content. Sure, romancing him is optional, but he's an authentically gay character, written by a gay man, and that's awesome.
Literally I was most interested in dating Brian in DD and I was so annoyed that he wasn't that great. Damian and Robert ended up being my faves, but I do tend to go for emotionally closed off "goths". I wish more had been done to flesh out those characters queer aspects
i desperately want to watch this video but can't due to spoilers. will check back once i have played more games. i'm sure this is a great video and look forward to watching it someday soon!
As a gay man I don't care too much about representation since I rarely care about the plot in games,but it's nice when we get some decent representation.The first gay/bi character I liked was Zevren in Dragon Age Origins he made me start to question my sexuality,but I don't want to go on a tangent. It's hard finding decent representation for queer folks Dragon Age,Mass Effect,and mostly RPGs are the only place anybody cares about us.My favorite gaming franchises Rune Factory and Story Of Seasons finally started giving us same sex options. RPGs and farming Sims seem to be the only ones that do representation right and some smaller indie games like Night In The Woods who have a gay couple Angus and Gregg who actually feel relatable.Most gay representation in videogames are over the top stereotypes that are in your face which turns me off. I really liked this video im surprised it took me this long to find your channel.
First off, I want to say - I really like this essay! You articulate the history of positive and negative queer rep in video games, and our current successes and shortcomings really well! ..but, I have to disagree with the argument against alienating straight people by "dialing back" our media (14:40) I agree that sexualizing queerness can be problematic (fetishization, objectification, inaccessible to our youth, etc), and good non-sexualized rep is long overdue (I personally don't enjoy "horny games" lol) - but I don't agree with striving for acceptance by the straight/cis "mainstream" by conforming to cis/het norms or shaming ourselves for our sexuality (The Straights™ have horny games too lol it's not our fault Steam lumps all queer games into one category) Quote: "Representation is about being visible - normalizing ourselves ever so slightly to the mainstream in the interest of fighting for our rights." (15:21) Rep is important because *we* want and deserve to see ourselves reflected multidimensionally in media - not as a tactic for acceptance by the straight hegemony. The bigots who believe we're "hedonistic devil worshippers" - or that teaching about queerness is "grooming" - will never be convinced otherwise. Assimilation is cultural genocide, and by self-policing we inflict it on ourselves and other queer folks who don't conform. It's regressive, and an exercise in futility rather than a weapon in the fight for our rights. James Somerton's 'The Queer Dystopia of the LGB Movement' talks about how striving for straight acceptance leads to transphobia by LGB alliances. His video 'Why Bad Gays are Good' is also on rejecting straight conformity in queer media (I'd include links but don't want this comment rejected for "spamming" lol) The goal of cis/het acceptance also drives the lateral violence by "truescum" trans folks against nonbinary and other binary trans people who don't conform to norms and stereotypes of "real trans" experiences and/or presentation, etc - for more on this check out Contrapoints' video "Transtrenders" Wow.. Sorry for the essay/infodump lol Again, I really do like your video and I hope this doesn't come across as harsh (I just thought the critique deserved some nuance..) I only found your channel recently and am really glad I did! I hope to see more from ya in the future!
@@filmotter Speaking of JRPGs Xenoblade Chronicles has a bit of LGBT representation, in Xenoblade Chronicles 3 one of the Hero party members (Heroes are optional 7th party members outside of the mandatory 6) Juniper is nonbinary both in dialogue and in the game's code Juniper is never referred to with male or female terms and in the game's code Juniper's gender is listed as 2 and for context male characters are listed as 0 and female as 1 so figuratively and literally Juniper is nonbinary Also in Xenoblade Chronicles X the optional party member Mia has two dads as at the end of her Affinity Mission, during which she's constantly talking about her "parents", Mia says that she misses her dads Also in Xenoblade X there's the twin brothers Lara Nara and Lara Mara who while kinda flamboyant and campy with tall burly bodies and shaved dyed hair with eyeshadow and lipstick, they wear full mech armour and they're both described as "having hearts of gold" in the affinity chart and Lara Nara has notable roles in 2 side missions, I can't really describe said missions without making this comment stupidly long though
Hi, I came here from Twitch and I gotta say, this is a well made, very informative video! However, I have to disagree with one of the points you brought up in the video as it come across as somewhat dismissive of other viewpoints - I don't think you intended it to come across as such, but I'd like to bring it up anyway. You bring up the fact that Dream Daddy never uses the words "gay", "queer", etc. which is true. But I don't think that should be a requirement for a media to have "good" queer representation. Let's take the She-Ra reboot and Love, Simon as examples here: Love, Simon is a piece of queer assimilation - the protagonist starts the movie by claiming he's "just like everybody else" except for the fact that he's gay, and then proceeds to disparage the only other openly out guy at school, saying that he's too gay. Meanwhile, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power never directly addresses queerness throughout its run, but I'd argue it's much better representation than Love, Simon. So, what's the difference? The characters in She-Ra and Dream Daddy never have to come out because queerness is so normalized in their universe, meanwhile Love, Simon has to directly tell the viewer his sexuality. I value immersion above all else when it comes to media, and I think if each of the characters from She-Ra or Dream Daddy had to "come out" to the audience, it would turn me away as it breaks the immersion. Also, I don't think that we should "force" characters to have to come out, just like we shouldn't force real people to come out. Personally, I'd love to live in a world where we don't HAVE to come out. The only reason we have to come out now is because it's "straight until proven otherwise". So I rebuke the idea that just because a piece of media doesn't use the word "queer" or any variation of it, that that piece of media can't be revolutionary. I think the idea of a world where we reject the assumption that everyone is straight is, in and of itself, revolutionary. Do I think Dream Daddy is an example of perfect representation? Not at all. But it's a game all about harmless fun, and I don't think that that's a bad thing. I don't want every piece of media to be like Brokeback Mountain, to be all about coming out and the struggles of being queer, because that's not a full representation of what being queer is like. Being queer can be joyous, loud and proud, but other times it can also be a quiet, unspoken acceptance. I think at the end of the day, we can all agree we want well-rounded queer representation. PS: these are all just my personal opinions. But as someone whose identity defies a nice, clean definition, I feel pretty strongly about my second point. I could've also touched on the point you made about explicit games, but this is already long enough and others brought up very good points already.
This was a really good video. I am not a part of the LGBTQ community, so I always saw representation as a binary option of "in the game" or "not in the game." Obviously it is not great to have a giant stereotype be a character, but I had never really considered the nuances of representation beyond that. This video was very informative, and I hope it gets some traction!
Thank you so much! And there really is so much nuance to the topic. This is like... barely scratching the surface if I'm honest. If we really got into things, the video might just be five hours long. And I don't have the energy for that. :D
I’m bisexual and my biggest problem with gaming is there’s so many bi characters but not made with the intention of them being bisexual. Usually what games do is they make a character “bi” because you can appeal to a wider audience: the audience being not bi people but specifically straight and gay people. Because usually these games do not really hone in on the characters bisexuality but it’s more of just an aesthetic choice to suit the players idea of their character, straight people will naturally romance the opposite sex of their character, gay people will romance the same. I think a great example of this is Sean in Life is Strange 2, in the third episode of the game you are given the choice to romance either a guy or a girl, his bisexuality was never EVER mentioned by Sean or any of the characters around him, it’s like he’s bisexual but he’s really not because the dialogue is written in a way to specifically not mention his sexuality and keep it vague so when you reach the choice between romance a man or a woman (and you can only choose one or the other) it’ll fit the majorities idea of the character, straight people will romance the opposite sex, gay people will romance the other. The game mechanic choice of either or, IMPLIES he’s bi but the games writing and story do not want to mention it, so for the straight persons play through Sean was straight and for the gay persons play through Sean was gay. It just feels very cheap
Assassins Creed Odyssey and Valhalla do this too, Kassandra and Eivor have the choice to romance many different people in their respective games but again it’s completely aesthetic and doesn’t add anything to their characters. It would be very interesting to see a Spartan or a Viking perspective on homosexuality considering the time periods (no Ancient Greece or wasn’t some gay paradise) but Ubisoft pussied out and just made it purely an aesthetic choice that you can choose to ignore entirely, earning brownie points from straight people too uncomfortable to play a queer character and brownie points from us for providing “bi representation” and they get to post a cool artwork of their “queer” assassins creed character with a pride flag
I would love to see a character action game or 3D platformer with overt Queer representation. That would make my heart so happy. I love a lot of the representation we are getting but for the kind of games I love most I still don't see us a ton if at all.
I am so happy things are are getting better, and honestly "incidental queerness" as I like to put it is such a hard thing even for queer writers to handle that I agree that things won't ever be perfect. I can only speak for my personal lived experience, but there's a funny quirk of representation that happens when I, an asexual person, try to write a story about an asexual character and have that character be visibly asexual without making it a story (or make a smaller chuck of the larger story) *about* being asexual. I'd have to have them just out and declare it in dialog since it's defined by a lack of something to show rather than something people act on (in most cases, at least). You can't prove a negative, so you can't prove a character is asexual vs just celibate or extremely private about their feelings unless a character tells you as such. I've found it frustratingly hard to naturally work into dialog without it coming off like box ticking or an afterthought, and sometimes I wonder if asexuality is something that can naturally be a part of my stories without being the explicit subject of my stories at all. In the end, though, I recognize that I have a lot of growing to do as a writer and I almost certainly could pull it off if I were skilled and perceptive enough, but I'm not quite there yet. I hope to be someday, and I hope the rest of the world can figure more things out too as we go.
That does sound like a bit of a struggle. It wouldn't be too hard to make an argument that someone like Link is asexual, with all the women (and some men) who practically throw themselves at him to a typically lackluster response (or slight disgust in the case of Ruto and Telma, a fishy Zora and large woman, respectively). But like you said, you can't prove a negative, and LInk is pretty much presumed to be hetero. I can't think of a good way to have an asexual character without overtly expressing that asexuality in an explicit way.
I have to say that itch is a treasure trove of magnificently queer game of all kinds, although always of smaller focus. One with considerable queerness I am quite fond of is Boyfriend Dungeon, a roguelike dating sim. And although a dating sim you can befriend everyone and progress the same, plus the diverse cast is prominently featured in their queerness. Another one, where queerness is very much present but not the focus is APICO, the most lovely game about tending to bees. Both games highly recommended.
Boyfriend Dungeon and Apico are definitely on my list! I've heard really great things about both. Didn't realize Apico involved queerness too. That's super cool!
@@filmotter The queerness is in having explicit pronouns in everyone's chat box and a little more, as it is otherwise sparse in non-player developments or actual plot. Still, very cool of the devs to add that.
Great video! Queer video game history and the etymology of daddy in one video essay is my kinda shit. I also didn't know that Dream Daddy was made by a largely straight team and avoids explicit mentions of so many key words. It's still on my to play list so it'll be interesting to read it from this perspective when I get around to playing it. The discussion around normalization in games is interesting, but perhaps lacking in a bit of nuance. I 1000% agree that we need more representation in mainstream titles, and that it has to be an integral and unskippable part of the game - if you haven't seen it checkout VerilyBitchie's amazing discussion of "the gay button" and mechanical bisexuality in her video essay How Bisexuality Changed Video Games. I also agree that the overwhelming amount of queer depiction being as shallow sex objects in porn games is a big failing in our efforts for good representation and note that it can also deny a large amount of queer depictions to people who don't feel comfortable or interested in playing heavily sexualized media, especially our asexual siblings. That said I'm cautious of attempts to normalize LGBT people by sanding off the aspects of queerness that the straight mainstream finds undesirable for both activist and storytelling reasons. From an activist perspective the attempts at mainstreaming LGBT identity from assimilationist groups have almost always left behind the most disadvantaged of members of our community, especially those who are trans and/or people of color. We see this in the domination of white gay men in the LGBT rights movement and LGBT spaces and the frequent disregard of issues affecting the lesbian, trans, and bisexual communities. Following the same path to representation in games could lead us to a space where we get nothing but "respectable" suburban white cis gay men of normative builds, which we might see reflected in the sensibilities of the largely straight team who developed Dream Daddy (just a guess as I've yet to play it). From a storytelling perspective I feel like characters which are designed to be acceptable to straight sensibilities can often fall into the trap of being "perfect tokens" for the community they represent, leading to somewhat two-dimensional or sanitized characters. Generally its the struggles which characters face that I find makes them the most relatable and interesting, and so having messy flawed, and even horny queer characters is an integral part of writing complex characters and making our representation compelling. To reference another VerilyBitchie video check out "Good LGBT Representation is Boring (and why that's a problem)" for some great writing on this idea. I hope that the games industry can move to a place where we get interesting complex queer characters as a normal part of games everywhere as that reflects the real way we exist in the world. On a different note I can't recommend enough the game Boyfriend Dungeon which is a lovely queer dating sim crossed with a simple but fun dungeon crawler. It's made by a queer indie studio and as a nonbinary person made me cry happy tears several times for its great representation of people like me. There's probably a really interesting comparison to be made between it and Dream Daddy regarding how they present queer characters and struggles given the different perspectives the development teams bring. Sending love and good vibes -Quinn
I‘m not a fan of some parts said in this video. Especially when you talked about "issues“ with Dream Daddy. Saying things like "our community“ can be very tricky. You generalize opinions from thousands of people from different cultures, backgrounds and perspectives. I‘m gay and I disagree with a lot of your opinions. For example I don‘t care at all if a game with gay characters includes words like "gay", "queer“ and so on. You did at least say on some parts that it‘s your personal take on it. What we (two) have in common is that we wish for more characters and stories that we can better identify with. But how that looks like can be different. There are so many shows and movies that are considered "great queer media“ and personally I dislike most of them.
Why is Dan here? He was never meant to be a gay character but a jab at SNK. He has a pink gi since he mixed his white gi with red. Never was there any mention that of his sexual preference
Very relatable, I remember being so disappointed with Brian's storyline in Dream Daddy cause it's just a dick measuring contest until they suddenly realize that they like each other in the last 30 seconds, so it's kind of a waste of time. And I didnt give a shit about any of the other guys.
personally I appreciated it but that's also cause the gender, sex and body shape options are completely separate choices and playing an androgynous character with a feminine body, male equipment but breast and they/them pronouns I would hate it if a character rejected me cause I didn't fit into a specific gender, or was into me despite being only into a specific gender. And since the game is fantasy and a power fantasy I feel like it's a great game for it to get to just be queer in a world without all the baggage of our world. And like, you can fuck a mindflayer and a druid shapeshifter I don't think gender should limit things too much at this point xD I think it's a fine way to go about it although it's not queer representation more so than it is uh... gender expression sandbox? if that make sense. It's nice to have but it for sure can't be the only type of representation we get. I'd also love to see games that acknowledge me as being non binary and make the world react differently to me because of that sometimes. Hell, make a game where the only gender option are "genderfluid" "agender" and "catgender" and have them being treated differently and force cis people to play as a gender they don't identify with for once xD that'd be extremely funny aswell as interesting.
Another great essay~ I've wondered a lot about representation in games, and how *sometimes*, the diversity in games feels pretty... insincere. Moreover, Is that kind of representation better than no representation at all? Well, your video has definitely been enlightening in that regard. I also enjoyed the quite interesting trip through the evolution of representation in games, as well as the critique and opinion over both popular and niche examples, AAA and indie alike. Thanks for discussing this topic! All of your essays are great, but this one in particular is fantastic.
Thank you so much for this comment. I put in a lot of time into covering a variety of angles on this discussion, so I'm glad it showed. I definitely think the different types of representation out there is all valid to some degree. And in the modern day, I'm just glad we have so many different examples to point to. We've really come a long way.
I’m fluid. I needed a channel like this because I really don’t want to deal with anti lgbt+ channels and their fanbase like Joe. I love queer characters from games, even when they’re only coded, every asinine gatekeeper tries to delete us isn’t going to no matter how hard they try. It’s sad that I feel I can’t give the straight, white cishet people a chance even if they think they’re trying to be allys. I certainly don’t give bourgeois transmeds the time of day either. While I don’t really play games like Apex Legends much I wanted to because of Catalyst, Bloodhound, Gibraltar and Fuse. If a game is genuinely trying to include us respectfully I’ll always give them a chance. I will always love Abby from TLOU part II too, the people who would harass me about it just made me like her more. Great video.
Just a note I know you wouldn't have known it at the time but it might be a good idea to scrub off James Somerton's name on the recommended video essayists section in the description considering what we now know about his plagiarism.
The only focus needs to be the gameplay, story, and characters.. And of course, music. If the character happens to be gay, cool whatever, just make them cool, and don't beat people over the head about sexuality.. It isn't interesting, and some countries don't like it. I remember back in high school, I made a game with some friends based on a comic I created. The main character happened to be gay... I wasn't trying to say anything, and I despise identity politics.. It was just how I saw the character. The relationship he had with his guy, as well as their behavior, was heavily inspired by the ideal view of such relationships in the old world.. It made sense for them as well. It fit them, as they were all about becoming gods of war. People were shocked, no doubt, but they really loved the characters' stories, their personalities, the focus on their goals.. I did not feel the need to keep reminding the reader/player that they were gay.. There were no references to any social/political things. It wouldn't have made sense, especially with them being from another dimension. The characters also did not behave in any sort of stereotypical manner. They were both very masculine guys. I was shocked, so many liked it, especially how the relationship was handled and the massive twist in it.. This was back in 2006.
I'm thinking that there are people who don't want to use the word gay because there are still those who consider the word an insult and they want gay to be seen as normal.
I think gay being used as an insult definitely stems from media portraying gay characters as weak or evil. So I'm excited to see that insult fade away as more gay characters are shown as strong and positive.
It's a reference to a fan theory that was going around that the Pyro was either gay or trans because of a few different things. One of the main points is their inner delusion being so colorful etc. Personally I was never a fan of this theory, since it relies on a lot of stereotypes, but it's something that's out there.
I'm sorry you were insulted in the early days of Xbox live. I personally find some online communities toxic in general to anyone they don't know or won over them. I'm not gay but I don't care about gayness or queer characters as long as they're a good character and has human qualities we can all identify with. As gay, straight, black or white we're all human and experiences transcend such petty identities which should never be the focal point of anyone's personality. Just my thoughts. 😁 Thanks for the video.
I think all everything no matter any singular persons views should be represented in video games, film, art etc. That being said I feel that artists need to make that representation natural and not forced. They need to make it feel real not just oddly placed there for shock value. I think Tell Me Why does it really well and I still need to beat that game the backlognis ever growing haha. Great video btw.
I always frown at games that make you 'choose' your gender and sexuality. If it's a game that is tailored to represent YOU (like dating games or any game where you costumize your entire look and choose your own name, think Stardew Valley or The Sims) then sure, that makes sense! But when it's any type of game where you play a character that isn't meant to be YOU, I wonder "is this really representation?", "does this count?". Choosing to be a woman or choosing to be queer in a video game is definitely a step-up from simply not having any of it at all, but it kinda still isn't representation. The character was not written to be female, to be queer. It's a "throw-away skin" basically. Queerness can be averted - as was said in the video. And on top of that it represents queerness as a "choice". I am all for bisexual characters but let's establish their bisexuality without being able to deny it before giving the player the options for "date man" or "date woman". James Somerton made a video called "Video Games and the Choice to be Gay" which I can recommend.
As a Transfem I feel so grateful about Madeline'sCeleste and Bridget and Testament (My mains) from Guilty Gear Strive :3 Hope the best for the future. ty for this video
As much as I Support gay communities having their own Game Studios and producing their own Games, why do they have to takeover companies that produce heterosexual Male Games and make em suck. Just leave us alone and produce your own, thank you.
One of my favorite games of all time is the VN Our Life: Beginnings and Always. Not only is the game super fun, but has amazing queer rep. You get to play a customized mc, where you pick your appearance, pronouns, sexuality, gender assigned at birth (including intersex), ect. You can even play and aroace mc which is super cool. The mc has two moms, and the base game love interest (and you get to chose if he is a love interest or not) is explicitly panromantic amd demisexual. One of your friends even comes out as trans towards the end. It is a super fun game and one that made me feel very seen, and genuinely had a large part to play in accepting me and my sexuality.
I understand where you are coming from, I just find that your arguments for criticizing Dream Daddy aren't well crafted. 1. The lead writer is a queer woman. If you want to argue that the staff is majority non-queer, you need to give us more information, because a queer lead already doesn't sound like a majority non-queer team. 2. In GDC talks tgat woman mentions that they did extencive research on queer topics and being a dad. Again, just point out flaws in the game that show lack of research and I believe you. 3. Not mentioning queer labels at all sounds concerning but I wish you would have shown a few scenes from the game where they obviously should have used "queer, bi, ..." in dialogue but didn't. This way I have no way of knowing if that is actually happening or if it may just be not that big of a deal. Still, it is fair to critizice the game and demand more.
99 percent of companies only do it to pander, thing is if you go to far it gets extreme backlash and if you make to super vague the alphabet people throw a fit cuz its not gay enough. Someone could make the gayest game to ever gay and even if it pleased the alphabet crowd it'd be a flop sales wise so their is no winning here. I like to call it the pride effect, nobody really cares except for that single month then they tear down decorations and back to business as usual. You may hate to admit it but its simply the truth...
@@InkfinityOkamix3 That's how it goes, people only care about it during big gay month and afterwards zip. If what you say is true it's a perfect example of that XD.
What they say isn't true. I mention plenty of instances of queerness in gaming quite often. Especially on my Twitch streams. Because, guess what, I'm gay. 😅
@@filmotter If true that's good, you don't really come off as the type of gay person who makes it their whole identity so that's respectable. However there are a lot of people who are like what I described, even those who transition or say they are gay for the clout. It may not be all, maybe less than a quarter even but It just seems silly to make that all you are about in every aspect of life. I'm even for gay characters in games myself, but done carefully and quietly, not the ones that scream "I'm gay" if you will. Good examples would be Kiane and Emil from Nier for instance. I'd even say Zagreus is good because he has a personality and is more than his sexuality. I get the message you tried to deliver but I couldn't agree less with making gay characters louder and prouder cuz that's just obnoxious.
i think this is a nice vid but i have to disagree with your point about gay games with sexual content. frankly i think the idea that overtly sexual games are inherently fetishistic is problematic at best... you say that no straight gamer would play a gay porn game, and even if that were true (which it isnt; you'd be surprised at how many straight people are open to them) why does it matter? is the only good form of queer representation squeaky clean, sexless depictions that arent icky to straight audiences? i dont mean to put words in your mouth, but it really comes across as you putting down genuinely gay games for not being gay in the right way. do i think there should be more pg gay games? absolutely, but weird silly horny games have their place too (even if you arent personally into them). in the end respectability politics help no one and only reinforce harmful ideals about being one of the "good" gays
One more great one is UNSIGHTED, where words don't make it justice how much I enjoyed it. It features a lesbian main character and it a praise to continue in the face of insurmountable odds, to continue against doom. Highly, highly recommended.
I also enjoyed Unsighted, but for me, it was more about the atmosphere and the game feel. It frankly would have worked regardless of the character's sexuality, since it was just a well made game first and foremost, but yes, that is an extra cherry on top for those that appreciate it.
@@xxProjectJxx The atmosphere, the importance of community against seemingly unescapable apocalypse is inextricably linked to the queerness, both of the character and especially of the devs: two trans women from Brasil if memory serves me right. I am extremely excited for their next game, have you seen it?
The problem is that there is only stuff that you can related to, but not the majority of people. Enjoy while it lasts, sales and money are going down, eventually companies will realize they are not willing to lose their money for some online trends and we'll go back to decent games.
games shouldnt be gay it should be a catagory not the entire thing, and it is just gay for play cause no one buys the games anymore because they are just trying to please LGBTQ people and lots of studios shut down for trying to make gay characters and girl-boss MCs
Happy Pride Month, yall! What's your favorite video game with queer representation? I'm always looking for some more gayness in my games!
Last of Us!
Yes! I love Ellie so much. What a kickass way to show off the power and resilience of the queer community!
Chrono Trigger will always have a place in my heart for Robo. I will always argue that Frog's and Robo's otherness always made those too feel a bit queer to me. I know Flea is problematic, however. It's definitely not a queer story or anything resembling representation.
Oh of course! How could I forget Chrono Trigger! I feel like that is definitely an example of Square dipping their toe in the water a bit
Hades! I adore that game so much~
Amazing video! I’m doing a project for school about Queerness in Video games and your video was a huge help. If my presentation could have been as long as I wanted, I would have played this entire video!
@@willybilly8298 I hope the presentation goes well!
Growing up, I appreciated games like the Sims, Fable, and Elder Scrolls that let you romance whoever you wanted (for the most part). They let you explore it with it affecting little else during times when, well, most of the rest that you mentioned was going on
So glad Razbuten recommended this channel. Really great stuff!
Thank you! I really appreciate that. Raz is very kind!
I don't think you meant it this way, but the section about NSFW games really did not come across well to me. While we are in the midst of an era of puritanism and 'should kink be allowed at pride' discussions on the internet, we as queer people don't need to be criticizing queer game developers for making what they want to see. It doesn't do anyone any good; when Game Jolt decided it didn't want NSFW content on its platform anymore, SFW queer games also got caught in the crossfire, because we will always be seen as too sexual whether we try to appease the straights or not.
Good video otherwise, though. My deepest gaming desire is to play (or be given the budget to develop!!) a well written RPG where the protagonist is gay, not as a choice, but as a core part of his character. Meanwhile, the industry is still stuck on romance options.
I agree with you in regards to a need for non-optional gay protagonists in RPGs. I'm glad to see how many romance options we get, but yeah... I'd like to see myself in more than just "options". You know?
Ouf. I came here with a lot of enthusiasm and good will, and was with you most of the way, but you lost me big time with the 'normalize ourselves' argument. As a lesbian gamer, I find the majority of the gaming community doubly alienating in its ubiquity and intensity of sexism and homophobia, and getting hit with a 'stop sexualizing our sexuality!' argument in what I had anticipated to be a safely queer niche of gaming UA-cam-following a 'daddy' definition, even!-really took me by surprise. Since you quote heavily here from DA:I, permit me an analogy: that moment felt, honestly, exactly the way it felt when, after the game allowed me to flirt heavily with Cassandra, she told my Inquisitor in a tone of baffled disgust that she couldn't possibly date her because she was a woman: like a painfully 'normalizing' bait and switch from an environment that claimed that it was welcoming me to one that was explicitly excluding and insulting me.
Now, I'm not familiar with the porny areas of Steam, so maybe in that section you're talking about something more specific than you mention explicitly, but the respectability-politics argument that if we look nice and clean the straights won't hurt us has never, actually, helped us, and worse, only serves to further marginalize the most vulnerable among us. At a moment of virulent resurgence of exactly the kind of violent homophobia you describe in your video as an artifact of the 90s-a time I do remember vividly, as it's when I was coming out as a teenager in conservative suburban America-what we need is not to apologize for the aspects of ourselves that straight culture finds distasteful, but to protect and defend and celebrate and nourish them with more passion and courage than ever.
I wish you all the luck in the world growing this channel, but as you do, I really hope you can give some time to rethinking your position on 'normalizing ourselves'. Peace.
I appreciate the comment! And can i just say, even though we clearly disagree, I deeply appreciate you coming at this from an angle of education rather than aggression (which I've seen far too much of on the internet).
I'll definitely be doing a lot of thinking about this further. Always willing to learn.
Yeah I kinda disagreed with that too. Straight porn is nearly everywhere in a lot of places like steam, so this just feels like a natural development that comes along with wider accessibility to gay men. (Can’t speak to queer women’s experience)
@@tikki2340 Youre right, for every four games you see its a weird hyper sexual straight porn game thats really creepy with its fetishes.
Yknow, this is probably a weird take to have in response to this video, but its made me realize that I can't really speak to how black/brown experiences are represented in games, because I can't really name much that is significant. I have like one anecdote about Resistance Fall of Man, and Miles Morales has a game.
Makes me think i should rectify this. Because that bit about being shown in silence not feeling like representation really resonated with me.
It's been really interesting to read the comments for this video because it's almost a 50/50 split with people saying something very similar to what you mentioned or the complete opposite.
Representation is something that, judging by the comments, is pretty specific and personal to each player.
@@filmotter my wife and I actually just had a conversation about this and she took the opposite opinion. Mainly cuz she doesn't like when the inclusion is the sole topic of that person's story. Like tokenism. So you right about that too, 😂.
12:40 knowing about how they treated ding-dong and Julian in those offices really gives a new angle to this discussion
You make some great points about queer representation that I did not consider until watching this. I think a lot of people could benefit from watching this video essay.
Also, this literally made me laugh out loud: "The LGBTQIA+ community are individuals with nuance and depth just like the rest of the population... wild!"
Thank you so much Chadley! You're too kind. And yes, nuance? Depth? Imagine! 😅
no gay or bi reference in a game about gay and bi dudes wanting to smooch other gay and bi dudes is one hell of a red flag
also it is both exciting that there was a mention of binders for goth dad but also it feels really awkward that a smol throway line _is_ that exciting simply because there is so little trans anything out there in the world that isn't tied to giving or receiving sexual abuse.
1000% agree with you
It's so cool that just a bit after this video came out, Bridget from Guilty Gear was confirmed to be a trans girl. I think she is one of the most positive representations of trans people in mainstream media, as Guilty Gear is a major franchise that has a lot more reach than some indie games. It's great to see such positive representation pop up in media these days.
When it comes to romance options the best I can think about is from Stardew Valley. Like helping Abigail figure out who she loves or helping another characters grandpa realize love isn't just A+B that it can be so much more
Oh I love that! I'll be honest, whenever I've played Stardew Valley, I never really engaged with the characters too much because I was so focused on my farm. But maybe I should explore some of those storylines again!
I've played about 2k hours in SDV and still seeing new things. It has a lot of depth for being a farming sim
@@Jakky1013 Oh definitely! I have a lot of friends who have played for hundreds and hundreds of hours. It seems like the creator really poured a lot of time and love into creating it!
ConcernedApe even replies to messages and comments on twitter. Really cares about his fans
@@Jakky1013 That's awesome! I'm sure that must take him lots of time tbh :D
I think this a great, and well edited video. You make a good point, but I don't think there's anything wrong with gay games explicitly and only for gay people. A lot of games are sexuality agnostic (like Stellaris), other games definitely can use more standard representation of LGBTQ people. But explicitly gay games for gay people are great too, there are lots of straight games explicitly for straight (wo)men to consume (explicit content for straight men and straight women are usually very different like lesbian and gay games are). I go back and forth on how I feel about acceptability politics.
I understand what you mean! I've enjoyed an explicit game or two in my time for sure. I should have specified that I've seen people argue that games like that are valid forms of representation though, which I think is what I disagree with. I guess I could've been more clear about that in the video itself, though.
Yeah, for me, the importance of representation is that queer people can see themselves in media. I don’t care so much about putting it where straight people can see it too, even though that often means way more compromises in the storytelling. And I get that the goal is to have uncompromised queer characters in mainstream games, I'd rather have a dozen queer-created indie games that do it fantastically than one AAA game that technically meets some "good rep" criteria. Let's show the mainstream developers how to do it, and let's support each other and give each other the financial success that will make the AAA industry really sit up and take notice.
Also, while there are certainly ways that queer content being optional in mainstream games can make the queerness feel inauthentic, it was still really weird to constantly see clips of Dorian from DAI when he was talking about "optional" queer content. Sure, romancing him is optional, but he's an authentically gay character, written by a gay man, and that's awesome.
Literally I was most interested in dating Brian in DD and I was so annoyed that he wasn't that great. Damian and Robert ended up being my faves, but I do tend to go for emotionally closed off "goths". I wish more had been done to flesh out those characters queer aspects
Mmmmm Robert
i desperately want to watch this video but can't due to spoilers. will check back once i have played more games. i'm sure this is a great video and look forward to watching it someday soon!
That's totally understandable, Violet. No worries. And thank you! 😊
As a gay man I don't care too much about representation since I rarely care about the plot in games,but it's nice when we get some decent representation.The first gay/bi character I liked was Zevren in Dragon Age Origins he made me start to question my sexuality,but I don't want to go on a tangent.
It's hard finding decent representation for queer folks Dragon Age,Mass Effect,and mostly RPGs are the only place anybody cares about us.My favorite gaming franchises Rune Factory and Story Of Seasons finally started giving us same sex options.
RPGs and farming Sims seem to be the only ones that do representation right and some smaller indie games like Night In The Woods who have a gay couple Angus and Gregg who actually feel relatable.Most gay representation in videogames are over the top stereotypes that are in your face which turns me off.
I really liked this video im surprised it took me this long to find your channel.
First off, I want to say - I really like this essay! You articulate the history of positive and negative queer rep in video games, and our current successes and shortcomings really well! ..but, I have to disagree with the argument against alienating straight people by "dialing back" our media (14:40)
I agree that sexualizing queerness can be problematic (fetishization, objectification, inaccessible to our youth, etc), and good non-sexualized rep is long overdue (I personally don't enjoy "horny games" lol) - but I don't agree with striving for acceptance by the straight/cis "mainstream" by conforming to cis/het norms or shaming ourselves for our sexuality (The Straights™ have horny games too lol it's not our fault Steam lumps all queer games into one category)
Quote: "Representation is about being visible - normalizing ourselves ever so slightly to the mainstream in the interest of fighting for our rights." (15:21)
Rep is important because *we* want and deserve to see ourselves reflected multidimensionally in media - not as a tactic for acceptance by the straight hegemony.
The bigots who believe we're "hedonistic devil worshippers" - or that teaching about queerness is "grooming" - will never be convinced otherwise. Assimilation is cultural genocide, and by self-policing we inflict it on ourselves and other queer folks who don't conform. It's regressive, and an exercise in futility rather than a weapon in the fight for our rights.
James Somerton's 'The Queer Dystopia of the LGB Movement' talks about how striving for straight acceptance leads to transphobia by LGB alliances. His video 'Why Bad Gays are Good' is also on rejecting straight conformity in queer media (I'd include links but don't want this comment rejected for "spamming" lol)
The goal of cis/het acceptance also drives the lateral violence by "truescum" trans folks against nonbinary and other binary trans people who don't conform to norms and stereotypes of "real trans" experiences and/or presentation, etc - for more on this check out Contrapoints' video "Transtrenders"
Wow.. Sorry for the essay/infodump lol Again, I really do like your video and I hope this doesn't come across as harsh (I just thought the critique deserved some nuance..) I only found your channel recently and am really glad I did! I hope to see more from ya in the future!
Lol this aged well
Whoever James plagiarized had excellent things to say in those videos
"I know you probably weren't ready for ZTHIS topic in THIS video, but we're getting into it"
Oh yes I fucking am!
LMAOOO I'm glad someone was ready for it
I saw a few clips of Sylvando here and as a gay man I adore Sylvando he is fantastic and every time he was onscreen I was grinning from ear to ear
Honestly same. He's so camp. And I love a bit of camp in my JRPGs
@@filmotter Speaking of JRPGs Xenoblade Chronicles has a bit of LGBT representation, in Xenoblade Chronicles 3 one of the Hero party members (Heroes are optional 7th party members outside of the mandatory 6) Juniper is nonbinary both in dialogue and in the game's code Juniper is never referred to with male or female terms and in the game's code Juniper's gender is listed as 2 and for context male characters are listed as 0 and female as 1 so figuratively and literally Juniper is nonbinary
Also in Xenoblade Chronicles X the optional party member Mia has two dads as at the end of her Affinity Mission, during which she's constantly talking about her "parents", Mia says that she misses her dads
Also in Xenoblade X there's the twin brothers Lara Nara and Lara Mara who while kinda flamboyant and campy with tall burly bodies and shaved dyed hair with eyeshadow and lipstick, they wear full mech armour and they're both described as "having hearts of gold" in the affinity chart and Lara Nara has notable roles in 2 side missions, I can't really describe said missions without making this comment stupidly long though
Hi, I came here from Twitch and I gotta say, this is a well made, very informative video! However, I have to disagree with one of the points you brought up in the video as it come across as somewhat dismissive of other viewpoints - I don't think you intended it to come across as such, but I'd like to bring it up anyway.
You bring up the fact that Dream Daddy never uses the words "gay", "queer", etc. which is true. But I don't think that should be a requirement for a media to have "good" queer representation. Let's take the She-Ra reboot and Love, Simon as examples here: Love, Simon is a piece of queer assimilation - the protagonist starts the movie by claiming he's "just like everybody else" except for the fact that he's gay, and then proceeds to disparage the only other openly out guy at school, saying that he's too gay. Meanwhile, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power never directly addresses queerness throughout its run, but I'd argue it's much better representation than Love, Simon.
So, what's the difference? The characters in She-Ra and Dream Daddy never have to come out because queerness is so normalized in their universe, meanwhile Love, Simon has to directly tell the viewer his sexuality. I value immersion above all else when it comes to media, and I think if each of the characters from She-Ra or Dream Daddy had to "come out" to the audience, it would turn me away as it breaks the immersion. Also, I don't think that we should "force" characters to have to come out, just like we shouldn't force real people to come out. Personally, I'd love to live in a world where we don't HAVE to come out. The only reason we have to come out now is because it's "straight until proven otherwise". So I rebuke the idea that just because a piece of media doesn't use the word "queer" or any variation of it, that that piece of media can't be revolutionary. I think the idea of a world where we reject the assumption that everyone is straight is, in and of itself, revolutionary.
Do I think Dream Daddy is an example of perfect representation? Not at all. But it's a game all about harmless fun, and I don't think that that's a bad thing. I don't want every piece of media to be like Brokeback Mountain, to be all about coming out and the struggles of being queer, because that's not a full representation of what being queer is like. Being queer can be joyous, loud and proud, but other times it can also be a quiet, unspoken acceptance. I think at the end of the day, we can all agree we want well-rounded queer representation.
PS: these are all just my personal opinions. But as someone whose identity defies a nice, clean definition, I feel pretty strongly about my second point. I could've also touched on the point you made about explicit games, but this is already long enough and others brought up very good points already.
This was a really good video. I am not a part of the LGBTQ community, so I always saw representation as a binary option of "in the game" or "not in the game." Obviously it is not great to have a giant stereotype be a character, but I had never really considered the nuances of representation beyond that. This video was very informative, and I hope it gets some traction!
Thank you so much! And there really is so much nuance to the topic. This is like... barely scratching the surface if I'm honest. If we really got into things, the video might just be five hours long. And I don't have the energy for that. :D
Still crazy how you just got 1000 subscribers. Top quality content.
Thank you so much! We're definitely growing though, which is surreal to see.
As long as you count stereotypes as "empowering" then sure things have gotten a lot "better".
1,500 views? Man. There needs to be at LEAST two extra zeroes on the end of that number. Your work is fantastic!
Thank you so much! I really appreciate that. Sharing videos always helps. But no pressure of course. 🥰
I’m bisexual and my biggest problem with gaming is there’s so many bi characters but not made with the intention of them being bisexual. Usually what games do is they make a character “bi” because you can appeal to a wider audience: the audience being not bi people but specifically straight and gay people. Because usually these games do not really hone in on the characters bisexuality but it’s more of just an aesthetic choice to suit the players idea of their character, straight people will naturally romance the opposite sex of their character, gay people will romance the same. I think a great example of this is Sean in Life is Strange 2, in the third episode of the game you are given the choice to romance either a guy or a girl, his bisexuality was never EVER mentioned by Sean or any of the characters around him, it’s like he’s bisexual but he’s really not because the dialogue is written in a way to specifically not mention his sexuality and keep it vague so when you reach the choice between romance a man or a woman (and you can only choose one or the other) it’ll fit the majorities idea of the character, straight people will romance the opposite sex, gay people will romance the other. The game mechanic choice of either or, IMPLIES he’s bi but the games writing and story do not want to mention it, so for the straight persons play through Sean was straight and for the gay persons play through Sean was gay. It just feels very cheap
Assassins Creed Odyssey and Valhalla do this too, Kassandra and Eivor have the choice to romance many different people in their respective games but again it’s completely aesthetic and doesn’t add anything to their characters. It would be very interesting to see a Spartan or a Viking perspective on homosexuality considering the time periods (no Ancient Greece or wasn’t some gay paradise) but Ubisoft pussied out and just made it purely an aesthetic choice that you can choose to ignore entirely, earning brownie points from straight people too uncomfortable to play a queer character and brownie points from us for providing “bi representation” and they get to post a cool artwork of their “queer” assassins creed character with a pride flag
@@Deivid-bn6yw To be fair, I think most people prefer being able to pursue their type of relationship more in games.
I would love to see a character action game or 3D platformer with overt Queer representation. That would make my heart so happy. I love a lot of the representation we are getting but for the kind of games I love most I still don't see us a ton if at all.
I completely agree with you! I feel like there are specific genres where queer representation is more easily found than others for sure.
This is so well done! 👏 Amazing work! 🙂💕
Cat!! Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Hope you've been doing well.
I am so happy things are are getting better, and honestly "incidental queerness" as I like to put it is such a hard thing even for queer writers to handle that I agree that things won't ever be perfect.
I can only speak for my personal lived experience, but there's a funny quirk of representation that happens when I, an asexual person, try to write a story about an asexual character and have that character be visibly asexual without making it a story (or make a smaller chuck of the larger story) *about* being asexual. I'd have to have them just out and declare it in dialog since it's defined by a lack of something to show rather than something people act on (in most cases, at least). You can't prove a negative, so you can't prove a character is asexual vs just celibate or extremely private about their feelings unless a character tells you as such. I've found it frustratingly hard to naturally work into dialog without it coming off like box ticking or an afterthought, and sometimes I wonder if asexuality is something that can naturally be a part of my stories without being the explicit subject of my stories at all.
In the end, though, I recognize that I have a lot of growing to do as a writer and I almost certainly could pull it off if I were skilled and perceptive enough, but I'm not quite there yet. I hope to be someday, and I hope the rest of the world can figure more things out too as we go.
That does sound like a bit of a struggle. It wouldn't be too hard to make an argument that someone like Link is asexual, with all the women (and some men) who practically throw themselves at him to a typically lackluster response (or slight disgust in the case of Ruto and Telma, a fishy Zora and large woman, respectively). But like you said, you can't prove a negative, and LInk is pretty much presumed to be hetero.
I can't think of a good way to have an asexual character without overtly expressing that asexuality in an explicit way.
I have to say that itch is a treasure trove of magnificently queer game of all kinds, although always of smaller focus.
One with considerable queerness I am quite fond of is Boyfriend Dungeon, a roguelike dating sim. And although a dating sim you can befriend everyone and progress the same, plus the diverse cast is prominently featured in their queerness.
Another one, where queerness is very much present but not the focus is APICO, the most lovely game about tending to bees.
Both games highly recommended.
Boyfriend Dungeon and Apico are definitely on my list! I've heard really great things about both. Didn't realize Apico involved queerness too. That's super cool!
@@filmotter The queerness is in having explicit pronouns in everyone's chat box and a little more, as it is otherwise sparse in non-player developments or actual plot. Still, very cool of the devs to add that.
@@Draconis_Eltanin that really is cool! I wish more games included things like this.
Great video! Queer video game history and the etymology of daddy in one video essay is my kinda shit. I also didn't know that Dream Daddy was made by a largely straight team and avoids explicit mentions of so many key words. It's still on my to play list so it'll be interesting to read it from this perspective when I get around to playing it.
The discussion around normalization in games is interesting, but perhaps lacking in a bit of nuance. I 1000% agree that we need more representation in mainstream titles, and that it has to be an integral and unskippable part of the game - if you haven't seen it checkout VerilyBitchie's amazing discussion of "the gay button" and mechanical bisexuality in her video essay How Bisexuality Changed Video Games. I also agree that the overwhelming amount of queer depiction being as shallow sex objects in porn games is a big failing in our efforts for good representation and note that it can also deny a large amount of queer depictions to people who don't feel comfortable or interested in playing heavily sexualized media, especially our asexual siblings.
That said I'm cautious of attempts to normalize LGBT people by sanding off the aspects of queerness that the straight mainstream finds undesirable for both activist and storytelling reasons. From an activist perspective the attempts at mainstreaming LGBT identity from assimilationist groups have almost always left behind the most disadvantaged of members of our community, especially those who are trans and/or people of color. We see this in the domination of white gay men in the LGBT rights movement and LGBT spaces and the frequent disregard of issues affecting the lesbian, trans, and bisexual communities. Following the same path to representation in games could lead us to a space where we get nothing but "respectable" suburban white cis gay men of normative builds, which we might see reflected in the sensibilities of the largely straight team who developed Dream Daddy (just a guess as I've yet to play it).
From a storytelling perspective I feel like characters which are designed to be acceptable to straight sensibilities can often fall into the trap of being "perfect tokens" for the community they represent, leading to somewhat two-dimensional or sanitized characters. Generally its the struggles which characters face that I find makes them the most relatable and interesting, and so having messy flawed, and even horny queer characters is an integral part of writing complex characters and making our representation compelling. To reference another VerilyBitchie video check out "Good LGBT Representation is Boring (and why that's a problem)" for some great writing on this idea. I hope that the games industry can move to a place where we get interesting complex queer characters as a normal part of games everywhere as that reflects the real way we exist in the world.
On a different note I can't recommend enough the game Boyfriend Dungeon which is a lovely queer dating sim crossed with a simple but fun dungeon crawler. It's made by a queer indie studio and as a nonbinary person made me cry happy tears several times for its great representation of people like me. There's probably a really interesting comparison to be made between it and Dream Daddy regarding how they present queer characters and struggles given the different perspectives the development teams bring. Sending love and good vibes -Quinn
Very cool comment and happy to see a fellow Boyfriend Dungeon appreciator
Adding boyfriend dungeon to the play list!
Loved your video filmotter thank you for making it
I'm glad you dig it
I‘m not a fan of some parts said in this video. Especially when you talked about "issues“ with Dream Daddy. Saying things like "our community“ can be very tricky. You generalize opinions from thousands of people from different cultures, backgrounds and perspectives. I‘m gay and I disagree with a lot of your opinions. For example I don‘t care at all if a game with gay characters includes words like "gay", "queer“ and so on. You did at least say on some parts that it‘s your personal take on it.
What we (two) have in common is that we wish for more characters and stories that we can better identify with. But how that looks like can be different. There are so many shows and movies that are considered "great queer media“ and personally I dislike most of them.
Why is Dan here? He was never meant to be a gay character but a jab at SNK. He has a pink gi since he mixed his white gi with red. Never was there any mention that of his sexual preference
Very relatable, I remember being so disappointed with Brian's storyline in Dream Daddy cause it's just a dick measuring contest until they suddenly realize that they like each other in the last 30 seconds, so it's kind of a waste of time. And I didnt give a shit about any of the other guys.
Bro has like 4 subscribers, and the video quality is so good, keep it up
thanks so much for this video!!♡♡
I hope CD Project red sees it...
Thank you! I'm just glad people seem to be enjoying the video!
What is your take on baldur's gate that made characters ”playersexual”
Haven't played it yet, so no take at the moment.
personally I appreciated it but that's also cause the gender, sex and body shape options are completely separate choices and playing an androgynous character with a feminine body, male equipment but breast and they/them pronouns I would hate it if a character rejected me cause I didn't fit into a specific gender, or was into me despite being only into a specific gender.
And since the game is fantasy and a power fantasy I feel like it's a great game for it to get to just be queer in a world without all the baggage of our world. And like, you can fuck a mindflayer and a druid shapeshifter I don't think gender should limit things too much at this point xD
I think it's a fine way to go about it although it's not queer representation more so than it is uh... gender expression sandbox? if that make sense. It's nice to have but it for sure can't be the only type of representation we get.
I'd also love to see games that acknowledge me as being non binary and make the world react differently to me because of that sometimes. Hell, make a game where the only gender option are "genderfluid" "agender" and "catgender" and have them being treated differently and force cis people to play as a gender they don't identify with for once xD that'd be extremely funny aswell as interesting.
saving spots for a thing i have to write for queer studies:
17:10
7:26
11:00
16:16
Is it another banger? Of course it is, of COURSE it is.
🤣 Aww thank you! I'm so glad people are enjoying this one.
Another great essay~
I've wondered a lot about representation in games, and how *sometimes*, the diversity in games feels pretty... insincere. Moreover, Is that kind of representation better than no representation at all? Well, your video has definitely been enlightening in that regard. I also enjoyed the quite interesting trip through the evolution of representation in games, as well as the critique and opinion over both popular and niche examples, AAA and indie alike.
Thanks for discussing this topic! All of your essays are great, but this one in particular is fantastic.
Thank you so much for this comment. I put in a lot of time into covering a variety of angles on this discussion, so I'm glad it showed. I definitely think the different types of representation out there is all valid to some degree. And in the modern day, I'm just glad we have so many different examples to point to. We've really come a long way.
Very important video! Thank you for representing us.
I do what I can!
I have two sides
Filmotter: are videogames gay enough?
Andypants gaming: why are video games so gay now?
what is Saddler doing here? I don't remember re4 ever mentioning or even hinting at his sexuality ?
I’m fluid.
I needed a channel like this because I really don’t want to deal with anti lgbt+ channels and their fanbase like Joe.
I love queer characters from games, even when they’re only coded, every asinine gatekeeper tries to delete us isn’t going to no matter how hard they try.
It’s sad that I feel I can’t give the straight, white cishet people a chance even if they think they’re trying to be allys.
I certainly don’t give bourgeois transmeds the time of day either.
While I don’t really play games like Apex Legends much I wanted to because of Catalyst, Bloodhound, Gibraltar and Fuse.
If a game is genuinely trying to include us respectfully I’ll always give them a chance.
I will always love Abby from TLOU part II too, the people who would harass me about it just made me like her more.
Great video.
How could I forget Wandersong! There is an extremely lovely game and queer representation in there
Totally agree with you!
thank you for the food for thought 💖
Thank you! I hope your thinkin' belly enjoyed the meal.
Just a note I know you wouldn't have known it at the time but it might be a good idea to scrub off James Somerton's name on the recommended video essayists section in the description considering what we now know about his plagiarism.
OOOOF you are so right, I forgot I even put that in there. 🤣
The only focus needs to be the gameplay, story, and characters.. And of course, music. If the character happens to be gay, cool whatever, just make them cool, and don't beat people over the head about sexuality.. It isn't interesting, and some countries don't like it.
I remember back in high school, I made a game with some friends based on a comic I created. The main character happened to be gay...
I wasn't trying to say anything, and I despise identity politics.. It was just how I saw the character. The relationship he had with his guy, as well as their behavior, was heavily inspired by the ideal view of such relationships in the old world.. It made sense for them as well. It fit them, as they were all about becoming gods of war.
People were shocked, no doubt, but they really loved the characters' stories, their personalities, the focus on their goals.. I did not feel the need to keep reminding the reader/player that they were gay..
There were no references to any social/political things. It wouldn't have made sense, especially with them being from another dimension. The characters also did not behave in any sort of stereotypical manner. They were both very masculine guys.
I was shocked, so many liked it, especially how the relationship was handled and the massive twist in it.. This was back in 2006.
The lead writer of Dream Daddy is a very very bisexual man btw
I'm thinking that there are people who don't want to use the word gay because there are still those who consider the word an insult and they want gay to be seen as normal.
I think gay being used as an insult definitely stems from media portraying gay characters as weak or evil. So I'm excited to see that insult fade away as more gay characters are shown as strong and positive.
Does castra's queer nature have anything to do with the gameplay?
This video taught me the etymology of daddee thank you
I'm glad. It's very applicable knowledge in everyday life! 🤣
wow i never knew Dream Daddy was developed by a bunch of straight people
Lmao I almost unliked the video because that’s what happens if you hit the like button twice. Great video.
Wait... Are you saying pyro is somehow gay ? I really don't understand the tf2 footage
It's a reference to a fan theory that was going around that the Pyro was either gay or trans because of a few different things. One of the main points is their inner delusion being so colorful etc. Personally I was never a fan of this theory, since it relies on a lot of stereotypes, but it's something that's out there.
Is it because he shoots out rainbow when in pyrovision ? Pls lmao I don't understand
There's a few things people have pointed out, but that is one of them. Which is a bit silly. But hey, that's fan theories for you sometimes. 😅
Bill (get out of my town Joel) and Greg (crimes!) are my favorite gay characters in video games.
Good video. Happy pride month
I'm sorry you were insulted in the early days of Xbox live. I personally find some online communities toxic in general to anyone they don't know or won over them. I'm not gay but I don't care about gayness or queer characters as long as they're a good character and has human qualities we can all identify with. As gay, straight, black or white we're all human and experiences transcend such petty identities which should never be the focal point of anyone's personality. Just my thoughts. 😁 Thanks for the video.
This video rules. Thank you.
Aw thank you so much! I appreciate that!
i got one question is it more gays or straight man
00:07 not gay but same. I'm not black either but there were more racial slurs than shotgun bullets so
Yup! It was a big reason I never got into any kind of online competitive gaming growing up.
@@filmotter I wish I could say I didn't contribute to that environment sorry
@@-Scrapper- I mean, we were all younger and didn't know better, right? We learn and grow with time.
I think all everything no matter any singular persons views should be represented in video games, film, art etc. That being said I feel that artists need to make that representation natural and not forced. They need to make it feel real not just oddly placed there for shock value. I think Tell Me Why does it really well and I still need to beat that game the backlognis ever growing haha. Great video btw.
I always frown at games that make you 'choose' your gender and sexuality. If it's a game that is tailored to represent YOU (like dating games or any game where you costumize your entire look and choose your own name, think Stardew Valley or The Sims) then sure, that makes sense! But when it's any type of game where you play a character that isn't meant to be YOU, I wonder "is this really representation?", "does this count?". Choosing to be a woman or choosing to be queer in a video game is definitely a step-up from simply not having any of it at all, but it kinda still isn't representation. The character was not written to be female, to be queer. It's a "throw-away skin" basically. Queerness can be averted - as was said in the video. And on top of that it represents queerness as a "choice". I am all for bisexual characters but let's establish their bisexuality without being able to deny it before giving the player the options for "date man" or "date woman". James Somerton made a video called "Video Games and the Choice to be Gay" which I can recommend.
I wonder who really wrote Somerton's "Video Games and the Choice to be Gay."
Gay is a funny word. Idk what it is but it has a weird ring to it.
0:10 That made me laugh.
As a Transfem I feel so grateful about Madeline'sCeleste and Bridget and Testament (My mains) from Guilty Gear Strive :3 Hope the best for the future. ty for this video
As a trnasmasc I relate to testament's theme song, bridget's too but Testament's lyrics are resonated with me
As much as I Support gay communities having their own Game Studios and producing their own Games, why do they have to takeover companies that produce heterosexual Male Games and make em suck. Just leave us alone and produce your own, thank you.
Those are uuuuhm a lot bots in the comment section gotta say :v
I know right? I usually delete them after the first day. LOL But hey I'll take the free engagement, I guess.
One of my favorite games of all time is the VN Our Life: Beginnings and Always. Not only is the game super fun, but has amazing queer rep. You get to play a customized mc, where you pick your appearance, pronouns, sexuality, gender assigned at birth (including intersex), ect. You can even play and aroace mc which is super cool. The mc has two moms, and the base game love interest (and you get to chose if he is a love interest or not) is explicitly panromantic amd demisexual. One of your friends even comes out as trans towards the end. It is a super fun game and one that made me feel very seen, and genuinely had a large part to play in accepting me and my sexuality.
I understand where you are coming from, I just find that your arguments for criticizing Dream Daddy aren't well crafted. 1. The lead writer is a queer woman. If you want to argue that the staff is majority non-queer, you need to give us more information, because a queer lead already doesn't sound like a majority non-queer team. 2. In GDC talks tgat woman mentions that they did extencive research on queer topics and being a dad. Again, just point out flaws in the game that show lack of research and I believe you. 3. Not mentioning queer labels at all sounds concerning but I wish you would have shown a few scenes from the game where they obviously should have used "queer, bi, ..." in dialogue but didn't. This way I have no way of knowing if that is actually happening or if it may just be not that big of a deal.
Still, it is fair to critizice the game and demand more.
awww what a cutie. i loved the video!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Now they have to hide it to sell
Maybe gay peoples should have their own game devolper who are gay, have devlop games for gay people and just seperate it from main stream
@SolidSnake-lt9wj lmao maybe you're a dumbass
Everytime I see Ellie 😍
Right? We stan Ellie
@@filmotter Yeeeess 💜
WTF is this? i searched for Video games with No lgbtq character and Why it was opposite? i swear Everything is lgbtq now. i cant even breath
99 percent of companies only do it to pander, thing is if you go to far it gets extreme backlash and if you make to super vague the alphabet people throw a fit cuz its not gay enough. Someone could make the gayest game to ever gay and even if it pleased the alphabet crowd it'd be a flop sales wise so their is no winning here. I like to call it the pride effect, nobody really cares except for that single month then they tear down decorations and back to business as usual. You may hate to admit it but its simply the truth...
Lol, this guy is pandering himself, as this video was uploaded in literally June. And then no more mention of gay games until this June ig.
@@InkfinityOkamix3 That's how it goes, people only care about it during big gay month and afterwards zip. If what you say is true it's a perfect example of that XD.
What they say isn't true. I mention plenty of instances of queerness in gaming quite often. Especially on my Twitch streams. Because, guess what, I'm gay. 😅
@@filmotter If true that's good, you don't really come off as the type of gay person who makes it their whole identity so that's respectable. However there are a lot of people who are like what I described, even those who transition or say they are gay for the clout. It may not be all, maybe less than a quarter even but It just seems silly to make that all you are about in every aspect of life. I'm even for gay characters in games myself, but done carefully and quietly, not the ones that scream "I'm gay" if you will. Good examples would be Kiane and Emil from Nier for instance. I'd even say Zagreus is good because he has a personality and is more than his sexuality. I get the message you tried to deliver but I couldn't agree less with making gay characters louder and prouder cuz that's just obnoxious.
Is dan hibiki gay?
no
Based
i think this is a nice vid but i have to disagree with your point about gay games with sexual content. frankly i think the idea that overtly sexual games are inherently fetishistic is problematic at best... you say that no straight gamer would play a gay porn game, and even if that were true (which it isnt; you'd be surprised at how many straight people are open to them) why does it matter? is the only good form of queer representation squeaky clean, sexless depictions that arent icky to straight audiences? i dont mean to put words in your mouth, but it really comes across as you putting down genuinely gay games for not being gay in the right way. do i think there should be more pg gay games? absolutely, but weird silly horny games have their place too (even if you arent personally into them). in the end respectability politics help no one and only reinforce harmful ideals about being one of the "good" gays
One more great one is UNSIGHTED, where words don't make it justice how much I enjoyed it. It features a lesbian main character and it a praise to continue in the face of insurmountable odds, to continue against doom. Highly, highly recommended.
I also enjoyed Unsighted, but for me, it was more about the atmosphere and the game feel. It frankly would have worked regardless of the character's sexuality, since it was just a well made game first and foremost, but yes, that is an extra cherry on top for those that appreciate it.
@@xxProjectJxx The atmosphere, the importance of community against seemingly unescapable apocalypse is inextricably linked to the queerness, both of the character and especially of the devs: two trans women from Brasil if memory serves me right.
I am extremely excited for their next game, have you seen it?
@@Draconis_Eltanin that's a bit of a stretch, lol, but they do complement each other, and no, I haven't seen what they've been working on.
The problem is that there is only stuff that you can related to, but not the majority of people.
Enjoy while it lasts, sales and money are going down, eventually companies will realize they are not willing to lose their money for some online trends and we'll go back to decent games.
games shouldnt be gay it should be a catagory not the entire thing, and it is just gay for play cause no one buys the games anymore because they are just trying to please LGBTQ people and lots of studios shut down for trying to make gay characters and girl-boss MCs
You answered your own question in the first minute.
What the gay
They’re too gay
Ugh
Never make a video again