As a 757/767 pilot and Instructor pilot for 20 years at a major US carrier (10,000 hours in type) here are a couple of observations. First of all, the TOGA levers are not "easy" to hit as some are saying here. In all my years and hours in this aircraft I cannot think of one instance where myself or folks I was flying with accidentally hit the TOGA levers. Apparently, this FO did. That said, had it happened most pilots would simply acknowledge that, opps, I hit the Go levers, disconnect the AP and Auto throttles and manually level off the aircraft asking the pilot monitoring to reset the flight directors and autopilots, tell ATC and continue the descent. For the non-pilots out there reading this, that's how this rare situation would have been handled by professional pilots who had progressed to flying transport category aircraft. It would have been a non-event. If the reports are true about this guys training and evaluation history, most US carriers would not have hired him and at some point in initial or recurrent training would have busted him. Given his history most carriers wouldn't have hired him.
Two weak birds on the flight deck, that much is for sure. With Atlas, I don't know if this FO was on the 747 at all, but in the 747 the A/T disconnect thumb switches are on the backside of the thrust levers, where the G/A switches are in the 767. Encountering turbulence maneuvering around weather in the descent, his speed started to drop off. With a jolt of turbulence that the video said was "light", he was at F1, GA mode armed, and I think he pushed the GA switch thinking he was disconnecting the A/T to correct the speed, jet pitched up, he thought he was stalling, disconnected and pitched over aggressively. A very firm "I have control" would have backed the FO off the flight controls, but I have a feeling the Captain stared in disbelief and just started pulling back while the FO continued to push forward. Like you, I am an IP, check airmen, FAA Examiner on both the 747 and 757 for over 30 years. I always warned guys transitioning from the 757 to the 747 to be careful not to confuse the A/T DISC switch on the 747 for the GA Switch on the 757. I have seen in the simulator in the heat of the moment guys push the DISC switch at minimums in the 747, thinking they are going to activate the GA mode. They usually catch it and then push a TOGA switch on the front side of the thrust levers, or manually advance the thrust levers and then push TOGA, habit patterns are hard to break if you were on the 757/767 for any length of time. Don't know for sure that is what happened here, but unfortunate for the jump seat rider, he had 2 weak guys at the controls...
I heard that from other 767 instructors, they have never seen a student accidentally press the TOGA levers. Why was he continually hired and kept by airlines?
@@Hedgeflexlfz Apparently the FO was in the habit of wearing a very large wrist watch, and it may have been this that accidentally activated the G/A switch. He's seen wearing it in several photographs.
I keep thinking of that poor jumpseat pilot who was just hitching a ride. He had just been hired by a major (United I think) and was going to start class. Had a young stepdaughter and a new baby boy.
@@MorganHillJr God is not your or anyone's cosmic butler. Thinking so is narcissistic. Sorry. Bad things happen to good people because this is an imperfect world.
@@46bovine yeah, agreed. management and training, not to say vetting of inexperienced pilots that needed more time practicing flying by instrumentation. They simply should not have been on that flight, to begin with, it's just sad.
I would go further and say anything not VFR. I'm going to wager a guess he snuck peeks through the hood during instrument training sessions and the CFI never caught it.
This is what the back story here is: The guy who did this failed training at three other airlines. Failed his ATP checkride twice. Got hired at a small shitty airline then failed his simulator rides twice and didn’t upgrade. Failed his aircraft type rating checkride at his cargo airline. Accidentally hits a button while flying, panics and pushes the nose of the airplane over while low to the ground, reaches unheard of descent angle and airspeed, and kills him self and two others. Others said he would “start pushing a lot of buttons without thinking about what he was pushing.” For 99.9% of pilots, a single checkride failure is frowned upon and needs explanation if they ever hope to get to a major airline. Two checkride failures, forget about it. Rumors said he threatened to sue for racial discrimination after his failures.
So being black equals bad pilot? Or do you mean this guy should have not passed into becoming a pilot. It sounds like you are saying the pilot was not qualified and they had the evidence to prove he has not qualified.
Apparently one of the investigators at the NTSB said that the relative degree of sensory / somatographic illusion / disorientation could have felt like 80 degrees nose up. It probably was a really confusing sensation. Which is why you trust your instruments.
Why didn't he look at his instruments when he sensed a "stall"? Especially when visibility is low you are trained to rely on your instruments rather than your senses. A simple glance at the airspeed indicator could've prevented this accident. As another commenter said it's a lack of basic airmanship. I see some similarities with AF447.
AF 447, and an upstate NY commuter flight a few years before; I don't recall the flight number. Pilot got an incorrect stall warning (on final, if I recall) and shoved the nose hard forward and held it there until they augured in. The plane could monitor stick force, and the report mentioned that he was applying something like 130 pounds of force to get the nose down to correct the stall warning.
The same thing applies to JFK Jr. If he had simply looked down at this attitude indicator and altimeter he would have known he was in a banking downward spiral. Some people just can't ignore their natural senses, which evolved down on the ground, and instead trust their instruments while flying a plane.
@@lwilton Colgan flight 3407 actually did stall because the plane leveled off and the pilot flying did not add power. When the stick shaker activated indicating that they were approaching stall the PF pulled back on the yoke- the opposite of the correct response to a stall. People theorize that the PF did this because he thought they had entered a tail plane stall.
When doing unusual attitude training for my PPL, my CFI had me put my head down with a hood on while he yanked and banked the aircraft to induce spacial disorientation. Boy did it work. When he gave me the controls back my senses told me we were in a steep left-turning dive. It was all I could do to trust the instruments and keep the plane straight-and-level. The sensations lasted about 20 seconds.
What impressed me about this animation: how short was the window of time from when TOGA was mistakenly activated to when the situation became irretrievable. Just about 25 seconds to confirmed doom. Thinking about it, I'm also reminded of the Learjet crash at KTEB. And while I'm at it, I'll toss in the recent and tragic PIA crash, where they landed on their engines, essentially, before crashing for lack of power to finish what was by then a doomed decision to execute a too-late go around. Mentally falling behind the airplane while on approach is a terrible place to be. Fortunately for the future aircrews who might study these accidents, valuable lessons are laid bare. Above all, know what you're doing and why. Poor airmanship placed all these crews in a position where superior airmanship would next be required to salvage the situation...and you can see the likelihood that this necessary skill would now be forthcoming. I'm not on team-Airbus, with a mentality that making future designs even simpler for pilots and leaving the flying to the machine is the answer. A gallant crew of a 777 with two dead engines following an iced-up fuel system is but one (of many) examples that teach us the real, everlasting reason why we passengers want quality human flyers on deck, regardless of automation at their disposal. Automation is a valuable tool, but we still need everyday heroes who stand a chance of saving us from bad engineering, or situations some designer never contemplated, or could imagine. (And I recognize that in the present case, if this crew but trusted the automation, even activated in error, it was performing properly and would've kept them from harm while they caught up mentally. It's all part of the job of sound judgement.) Aviation is exacting. Before this string of bad luck, the commercial side at least was a shining example of the best of both the engineering and human skill worlds. Aim higher. I applaud the NTSB for its steady work in helping highlight the lessons still to be learned. I think we're doing this part right. We set blame aside for a time and concentrate on understanding what happened and how bad outcomes might be avoided in future.
At least in AF447, there was potentially confusing information on the instruments due to the iced pitot (at last as I understand it). Definitely not excusing the FO. I think I'm pretty smart overall, but I've never had to deal with a critical situation with multiple confusing inputs.
You get what you pay for. And that's also result of: - Friendship over professionalism; - Low training Flying is far beyond than pushing throttles forward.
Cameron Sours it wasn’t that confusing. The sped indicators were lost due to icing. All they had to do was to go to preset pitch attitude and thrust setting and wait for pitot heat to melt the ice which should be in the manuals
@@tomstravels520 even though i agree 100% with you, night time in the middle of the Atlantic in stormy weather can lead to any pilot being startled by a chime. Shouldn't end with the aircraft on the bottom of the sea though..
With a checkered career like that, you have to wonder why he wasn't grounded. There are many very good pilots, and then there are those who do not belong on the flight deck. The difference is a matter of life and death.
@@KuostA No. Personal responsibility is always required. He knew he was failing. Nobody forced him to keep applying to new companies and failing to report his previous experience as required. AA literally enabled him to crash that plane but did not force him to be in that seat.
This wasn't his first "rodeo" with Atlas. I wonder how many other flight hours were flown with this guy and someone realized he didn't have what it took? I wonder how many of his pilot "peers" let him slide?
what do you mean promoted beyond one's abilites? he was HIRED by them? why is everyone on here blaming the candidate not hte company that allowed the candidate to put the captain and jumpseater in danger?
Wow he said “Lord have mercy on my soul” and related comments for quite a while before the impact. Did he just shut down and give up as soon as he felt like they were stalling?
Seems likely, doesn't it? That actually isn't unusual behavior. You panic and do something that you think should correct the problem, like push the stick hard forward. That doesn't seem to help, and you freeze up and just stop thinking, and just push the stick harder forward, hoping it will help.
@@MrHotSpurs1 he didn’t say that at the first sign of trouble, smart one; he said that within 10 seconds or so Of the plane impacting the earth, when was there was nothing more he could do to stop the crash, and was within moments of death.
I want to know how the captain allowed the FO to full nose-down for more than five seconds. Count out 10 seconds to yourself. Its not a lot of time, but imagine going from a semi-level flight to being pitched forward nose down and not doing anything about it for that long. RIP what a tragic ending.
The report said the nose down position was unrecoverable. Near the end of the crash video it did appear that the dive leveled a bit but it was too late.
My exact response: I cannot Fathom the inaction REQUIRED to allow this crash, unless you had a sudden loss of consciousness. I'm supposing the CVR could help confirm / deny that possibility
I found this article that says they were fighting each other on the yoke. The FO pushed forward, the captain pulled back. It wasn't later that FO started to pull back but it was too late www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2020-01-13/ntsb-public-docket-reveals-crew-confusion-training-discrepancies-atlas-air-3591-downing%3famp
Yeah, from day 1 when I read about it I had a bad feeling it was a pilot mistake. Planes don't fall out of the sky randomly, and it was a very well-tested bird. Damn that happened fast, feels like you have more time in F1 race than these guys had...
i fail to understand your logic. if his employment history is so bad why did atlas air hire him? why are you not blaming the airline that put the captain and jumpseater into danger? what about the (white) captain's incompetence? he was 60 and flew 10,000 on an erj145. i'm pretty sure he tried finding right seat jobs with wn aa co ua us but they wouldn't look at him. or maybe i'm wrong he's a crappy pilot who was happy left seating on a 145 and only at the age of 55 did he decide he wanted to do 67 freigheters with atlas air (way better than fx ups abx or polar, right?) what kind of candidate and airline makes that into a 67 left seat? incompetence and negligence.
@@gotacallfromvishal He was threatening to use them for racial discrimination. The captain did what he could, considering there was grand total of 15 seconds to work with and an idiot first officer to wrestle over the controls.
It's unbelievable, there was no indication of a stall! No stick shaker or air speed. Not everyone can be a pilot. It takes skills, talent and mentally strong to put in practice everything you learn through training to not panic and nose down the plane like that.
Reason there was no indication of a stall because there was no stall. Inexperienced "FO" (I was trained calling them co pilots) had Coriolis illusion and did not left to right; top to bottom his instruments and believe them.
@@allanc3655 The more significant illusion would be a somatogravic illusion due to the plane's unexpected acceleration leading to a feeling a pitching up. But the reason this pilot decided to trust this feeling instead of his instruments while in IMC no one will ever know...
Basically the same story as in the early days of flying the mail in bad weather: "When in doubt, fly needle, ball, and airspeed". It is more complicated today, but the message is still the same .... it is senseless to depend on your senses.
@@Matt_Alaric Flying the needle ball and airspeed is just another way of saying that you need to pay attention to the primary flight instruments when you can't see out the window. For instance, every plane has a gyroscopic artificial horizon. It tells you the pitch and bank of an aircraft. You have airspeed, and altitude. You also have a turn coordinator (this is what technically has the ball from the original saying). When the aircraft has no visual references due to fog or clouds, you need to know how to read your instruments. Spacial disorientation is only dangerous if you give into the senses. Or better yet, "relying on your senses is senseless." SO LETS SAY YOU GET CONFUSED OR UNEASY.... just look at your pitch and airspeed. Keep level flight and don't stall and you'll be good! Unlike this FO that felt the plane accelerating so he simply just nosedived the aircraft without a second thought.
@@MIckveli2 In 2015, Blakely failed his proficiency test on the Boeing 767 and was placed in a monitoring program “as a result of [his] repetitive need for additional training.” Blakely was removed from the monitoring program in February 2017. White privilege?
Yes it appears the first officer was prone to panic mode and only knew to mash buttons or flip switches as well as jerking movement of controls when faced with an issue. However the we assume higher time Captain and more proficient pilot what happened to him or was he overwhelmed by the FO reactions? The FO it sounds like he was a person that it was a matter of time before they made a fatal mistake. Thank you for sharing this.
Yes exactly right. In the meeting this morning that's what they were saying. Previous instructors said he would just push buttons and move controls in the sim without thinking about what he was doing when faced with an abnormal situation. One even called it a "trainwreck."
Well, they hit TOGA, but not sure what went wrong in the Copilot's head. The pilot monitoring might have been distracted looking at charts for the airport, to set up the airplane for the approach from the other side in response to the radio call they received.
In the 757 and 767 cockpit is very easy to hit those buttons by mistake with your arm, as they are in the back of the throttle levers, and you must pass your arm just behind them to reach the Speed brake if you are on the FO side, or the Flap handle if you are on the Capt. Side.
You monitor whats supposed to be happening, and keep an eye out for things that aren't supposed to be happening; its almost i possible to scan all the non-primary instruments so its easy to miss TOGA for a few seconds. That said, primary instruments should have been enough in this instance.
@@2005kmcollins this isn't supposed to be the case. You're a two man crew, both are supposed to be able to do the flight and all emergency situations on it's own - it's a major failure in management which lead to the situation that this guy was even allowed to sit in this seat.
Thank you for posting these videos as I learn a lot from them. My question is in a situation like this does your brain go into extreme slow motion or does the crash happen so fast you don't have time to think about it?
I'd think that it depends on the person. Some people freeze up in the face of danger, and those people should not be pilots. I suppose for most pilots, their hear rate goes up, but that's about it
There can be as much as 30 seconds of "startle factor" that limit an effective response to an unexpected event, even in trained crew. During that time only reflex reactions can occur (stall recovery being a reflex reaction, engine failure is also a trained reflex reaction). Time can feel slowed down in it, but your head is scrambling to make sense of the unexpected information. Pilots train hard to minimize this startle factor, but it's basic human nature to experience it.
They hit the water/ground at over 400 knots. This translates to 205 meters per second. If the pilots seated in the cockpit seats occupied, let's say, four feet horizontally, or 2.1 meters (from their feet to the back of their head) then the crushing of the nose of the aircraft would obliterate and pulverize their bodies in a timespan of 10 milliseconds, or ten one-thousandths of one second. Human nerve conduction velocity, on average, is about 40 meters per second. That's the speed that pain signals travel to reach the brain. At 40 meters per second, it would take a pain signal 50 milliseconds to travel 2 meters. A pilot's brain would be obliterated before any pain signals could be conducted to it. I'm sure this arithmetic gives some comfort to people who work in the bomb squad.
Look at these technicians who are testing the Boeing717 (DC9) ua-cam.com/video/L2CsO-Vu7oc/v-deo.html do not expect an upside down stall, look at the reactions of the second pilot who tries with his hand to help giving advice to the pilot in command, after they come out of the stall they compliment each other for be able to stabilize the plane. everything lasts a few seconds and you can still feel the force in G when the plane turns on itself and swoops. This accident is not the pilot's fault see my comment.
@@flavion1259 I'm not here to say who's at fault or not, but the video you linked was an test flight demonstrating the stall characteristics, specifically for a maneuver called a spin, all of which was planned and intentional, and executed very well. The Atlas plane did not experience a spin, or even a stall for that matter, though the pilot flying might have identified it as such because of the similarity in G forces felt by the inner ear when the Go Around mode was inadvertently activated. The TSB stated that he incorrectly performed a stall recovery..... I don't see how your video link proves otherwise. In my opinion, the two videos are completely different, and similarities can't be drawn between the two.
@@Kaipeternicolas Sure, if the speed is maintained long enough. Both China Airlines 006 and FedEx 705 nearly broke the sound barrier during a high-speed uncontrolled dive, and both planes sustained damage to their elevators and control surfaces. But they were still able to land safely.
This should have been a non-event; disengage AT & A/P, establish positive aircraft control, re-engage automation and continue. Instead, due to the FO’s ineptitude, it resulted in a crash. RIP
My CFI explained a similar phenomenon to me when I was doing my night requirements. Acceleration pushes you back into your seat in such a way that when you don't have an outside visual reference (at night, or in clouds), the body thinks the airplane is climbing steeply. It feels the same as far as your brain is concerned. He advised a lot of pilots have gotten into trouble in a hurry when flying at night because they mistakenly push the nose over too far when adding power because they think the aircraft is pitching up more than it actually is. I'm guessing that sensation hit him, and he assumed the aircraft was nose-high and heading for a stall. This appears to be the exact kind of panicked reaction that caused him to fail his previous checkrides. Panic followed by reaction, instead of panic followed by evaluation, then acting based on all the information in front of him. In most it can point to a training issue, but with his history, it really seems like it points to, maybe he should have gone for a different career.
Somatogravic Illusion The somatogravic illusion is a vestibular illusion which is prevalent during high accelerations/deccelerations when a pilot has no clear visual reference (Wilson, 1995 8). The word Somatogravic is derived from somato meaning ‘of the body’ and gravic meaning ‘pertaining to the gravitational force’ and is a strong pitching sensation (either up or down) when the body is exposed to either high acceleration or decelerations (Kern, 1998 1). This illusion is due to the interaction of unnatural accelerations (such as those experienced in an aircraft) on our Otolith Organs, specifically our utricle aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/aviation:somatogravic-illusion
It's interesting how the feeling they had of climbing steeply was precisely the opposite problem of what Air France 447 had. The pilots on that flight were convinced they were going too fast and too low when the opposite was the case. So you can have the wrong feeling of what is happening in both directions, so to speak.
He was an affirmative action pick. I speak as a pioneer in aviation. Starting on heavy equipment in the early 80's. I did not see any other women for many years. Then suddenly everybody had to hire various minorities to fill quotas. Some were very good. Some were well, well below average. They were needed to get government contracts. Atlas probably has such contracts. The pilot pay at Atlas is very low so they just put warm bodies in the seats. The Captain also was not a career pilot. He started late as a second career. This is the kind of jobs these guys get. The danger is when you bid a line and get stuck flying with them. These two both appeared weak. That is the danger at certain second or third tier operators. Although I have flown with several white males who were struggling with the job, with low cognitive ability and unpleasant personality profiles. Aviation should require cognitive tests before training begins. These are illegal in the civilian world. The military uses them extensively with good results. Usually ground school and simulator training weeds them out. A few months ago there was a dire pilot shortage and thus a pilot such as this FO was hired.
See @rodzac comment above regarding employment and training issues. If these comments about Affirmative action hiring are true, another example of how "good intentions" are destroying the USA. Some jobs should be 100% Merit/ability based with no tought about diversity. Maybe ties go to a diversity candidate. I've never understood lowered standards for anyone. IMO this should be a colorless, sexless society. In 1968, as a male at 5'9" 140#s I was too short and light to qualify for LAFD regardless of strength, conditioning. Minimum for A man 5'10 @160lbs. A year or two later those minimums were lowered to 5'7" at 125 lbs for female "only" new hires. In today's PC culture world, I'm so happy my time here is in the late fall, early winter of my life. I weep for my son....
Ethnicity becomes a problem, if someone is hired BECAUSE they are of a certain ethnicity/skin color - solely for the sake of diversity :( Hiring of pilots should be based on whether they are qualified, not on their skin color.
You said speed brakes could only be retracted manually? I thought after the Colombian American Airlines crash (in a 757) auto stow became mandatory, when throttles were advanced for go around, they are to stow. Did I misread the report?
After the Cali crash it was required that there be an aural warning, and EICAS message if thrust levers are advanced with speed brakes deployed. Prior to that crash, there was no aural/EICAS caution in that situation
This is why the automation also needs to communicate what it's doing in plain human language. The automation doesn't act like a teammate; it doesn't call out what it's doing. If the automation had said "We're going around. I have the aircraft. Throttles to max, vertical speed nulled. You have the aircraft." then the PF wouldn't have thought they were stalling. The TOGO will get accidentally pressed; the automation should not assume this is intentional, then rapidly reconfigure the plane in total silence. BTW, I'm treating "bleeps" and "bloops" or "new flight mode displayed on the screen" as silence, because they are not spoken human language that you can still easily interpret under stress (i.e., the bleeding heart of CRM).
Even though I agree with your idea, this guy was incredibly untrained and not suit8to fly at all. I'm convinced if his surface controls were disabled he would have done something else more dramatic.
@@MathasarSalazar2 just don't get why the other pilot had so little situation awareness. I mean you grab it and put the throttle to 80% and just focus on the virtual horizon. That's the most basic recovery training ... 🙄
@@RubenKelevra The captain apparently hit his head gertting into his seat after the lav. He was bleeding. Maybe he was distracted by getting that under control?
Did you not read that the elevator control was split, with one pilot pulling hard and the FO pushing hard until they broke out. I think perhaps the NTSB to the PC route to not disclose the content of the CVR during the descent. It might explain more factors as to why the pilot could not get the FO to release the elevator.
@@olbuck > I think perhaps the NTSB to the PC route to not disclose the content of the CVR during the descent. I'm interested. Can you elaborate on this?
You can experience the same feeling on the ground, at night, in heavy fog, on a long causeway, over the water, in a car. I didn't crash, but the short ride seemed to go on forever. Very sad. Luckily they didn't crash into the City.
Incredible! I have been wondering what the cause of accident was on this one, as this has been one of the few accidents in modern time that has left me with an inability to even guess what happened without the facts. So it will be accredited to inaccurate stall realization due to Somatogravic illusion. I haven’t heard much mention to my next point, and I don’t want to point any unnecessary fingers, just a theory - has anyone considered that this was a possible suicide CFIT? On the CVR, the FO can be heard saying multiple times while holding the nose hard over, “Lord have mercy on my soul” “have mercy”. It was such an elementary principle of instrument flying, it causes concern that it was intentional. Very sad thing to consider, and may they all Rest In Peace, again I don’t want to speak poorly of the deceased in any way. This is merely my contribution towards the science of the accident and safety investigation.
When Go-Around was activated the airplane quickly exceeded the speed limit for the current flaps condition. The F.O. saw red - the red tape on the airspeed indication which signified the flap limit exceedance. He panicked. He thought he was looking at low-speed, stall area red. He pushed (fight or flight reaction...) His brain was nowhere in sight. He was simply acting on animal survival instinct. He was a sixth-grader sitting in a college Senior classroom. He was in way over his head. He freaked; they died.
Or maybe the FO was a complete nutcase and didnt understand a 767 doesn't stall at 235 knots at 3000ft and panicked, plunging the plane into its demise.
Yes, exactly! And they did. It was rapidly decaying, THEY dumped the nose, the Captain was flying at this point, and the rest is history. But it's hard for anyone to even remotely think that the NTSB got this completely wrong, so the band keep playing
Ok what did we find out about this trajedy, documented history of FO's failure to perform to standards, failed check rides, no indication of stahl warning, perfectly operational set of working instruments, FAA's failure to appropriately react getting a badly needed system in place, to mention some of the serious and most obvious. What is going to be done to prevent this senless loss of life from happening again?
If you missed it live this morning I would recommend watching the replay of the board meeting. Both flight crew had ample experience. Despite having about 5,000 hours, there was a focus on the FO's record of failing checks at previous employers. He never should have been hired. They did not have the full report at his interview, but they received it later and it was reviewed. But the process included a 3rd party company and the person who reviewed the records did not have to have any flight experience.
Let me chime in ... there are 2 pilots one pilot is the “flying pilot” one pilot is the radio and monitor pilot .. i am a 767 captain and i fly with all kind of first officers .. my main job when I’m not flying is to MONITOR the aircraft... first officers of ALL RACES and background military or civilian are different . Some have more experience than others ... even EXPERIENCED first officers can mess up ... my JOB is to know what is happening with my aircraft in all phases of flight... the simple answer for any situation i feel My FO can not handle is “MY CONTROLS”.... The simple answer any time i want the aircraft is MY CONTROLS... if your PAST is that bad it will come to light on the line.. I’ve flown with pilots of all races who in my opinion had skills that were t what i thought were the best and never did i dig into how or why they were hired .. as a captain this captain should have taken the controls.. you fly long enough white guys who make up most of the industry will make a Mistake , black guys will make a mistake , asians will make a mistake , women will make a mistake... if we looked at every major crash in the industry and looked at the race of the pilot is that the reason for the crash... no pilot is perfect and this FO put the airplane in a position where a good captain should have easily gotten them out of it
And honestly this country needs to turn off the news .. go back to a time when the news was 30 minutes in the day... you guys are so brain washed Left Vs Right .... left wing and right wing on my plane are all connected to the same aircraft.... stop politicizing every F*n scenario
By designing it so it *can* be pressed. Even if it has a cover over it and another knob you have to turn on the other side of the cockpit first. If someone becomes convinced that it is the water dispenser knob the will still press it at the wrong time. And wonder what is wrong with the water dispenser when their cup remains empty.
You cannot idiot proof everything. What was needed here was for Atlas management to keep the idiot out of the cockpit. 20+ years in transports. Never seen anything like this in a cockpit flown by two guys who knew what they were doing.
THE FACTS:at 12:36.07 F/O has problem with his EFI (electronic flight instruments) at 12:36.09 F/O hands control to the captain,because he has an EFI (electronic flight instruments) problem. at 12:37.07 F/O presses EFI switch to change to alternate display generator.F/O Says "EFI.." at 12:37.08 F/O says "i got it back" meaning his display is back at 12:37.09 Captain says "now it's back ((laughs)" comfirming F/O has his displays back. at 12:37.11 F/O says "i press EFI button it fixes everything" at 12:37.23 Captain hands controls back to the F/O at 12:38.45 "where's my speed,my speed?" at 12:38.48 "We're stalling!" at 12:38.50 "Stall!" at 12:39.03 CRASH. Who,in their right mind,can say this crash is NOT related to what was being displayed to the F/O on his faulty electronic flight instruments ??
@@Lingboysc2 I'd like to know how they showed his EFI display was working correctly,there's still no data on why he switched over,probably never will be. The timing is just too close.
@@Lingboysc2 Hi,FDR only knows some of the computer data,It cannot see the EFI's or what the charicter generator (graphics) is doing, any data on all three references agreeing at all times? that might be on the FDR!
I did my entire 5000 hours without an autopilot way back in the 60s.....pre glass cockpit obviously. There don’t seem to be any stick n rudder pilots around anymore .
It's not a nitwit comment. The captain was PILOT IN COMMAND. Ultimately responsible, if not the cause of the crash. He did not tell the FO to relinquish controls. He should have said "MY PLANE" or "MY CONTROLS". It seemed he was making the right moves (it appears he was pulling back) but he was "fighting" the FO who was pushing the nose down. Especially with a panicked FO. I'm sure he wishes he had taken over.
Although completely different aircraft, the phenomenon is similar to the Kobe Bryant crash. Pilot thinks he is pitching up, when in fact he is level, and he responds by diving the aircraft into the ground.
The same thing applies to JFK Jr. If he had simply looked down at this attitude indicator and altimeter he would have known he was in a banking downward spiral. Some people just can't ignore their natural senses, which evolved down on the ground, and instead trust their instruments while flying a plane.
Why did it go into Go Around mode? That seems to have started the whole fiasco. We have all ridden with pilots who we wondered "how did this person ever get here?" Hopefully, they get weeded out through a less fatal mechanism.
Interesting comments. For the record, a tragic accident like this is terrible and heart breaking no matter what race, creed or color. I have witnessed plenty of pilots, male/female/black/white, from ERAU, military, Part 91, 121, 135 and 142 operations advanced with questionable flight training records. Although Aska was at the controls, the captain is responsible for and is the final authority on the operation of the aircraft. I figure that everyone making comments on this post with extensive careers in aviation would know that and have never made a mistake on the flight deck. L'm just guessing. Yes, Aska made some tragic mistakes, but the captain should be monitoring the instruments and flight conditions threw out the entire flight. It is a matter of record that " The board found that the captain, 60-year-old Ricky Blakely, had failed to intervene to stop the crash." So let's put this diversity bullshit to rest, pray for the crew and their families, and do what we can do as professional pilots to ensure something like this doesn't happen in your flying career. Safe skies, Scouts Out!!!!!!!
I would hope the capt knows who he's flying with but I guess that training background is confidential. If an incompetent pilot has been hired for sociopolitical reasons then it is clearly an issue , along with the failure of the captain to intervene . It's the old 'daisychain' isn't it ? You don't put significant factors 'to rest' if you don't want a repeat . As an MD , I'm constantly having to prove my competency . We have a central body for oversight - the GMC in the UK . Maybe there needs to be a central , independent body responsible for air crew oversight in each country .
This is what the back story here is: The guy who did this failed training at three other airlines. Failed his ATP checkride twice. Got hired at a small shitty airline then failed his simulator rides twice and didn’t upgrade. Failed his aircraft type rating checkride at his cargo airline. admiralcloudberg.medium.com/legacy-of-a-lie-the-crash-of-atlas-air-flight-3591-519a3a7bd6ec Accidentally hits a button while flying, panics and pushes the nose of the airplane over while low to the ground, reaches unheard of descent angle and airspeed, and kills him self and two others. Others said he would “start pushing a lot of buttons without thinking about what he was pushing.” For 99.9% of pilots, a single checkride failure is frowned upon and needs explanation if they ever hope to get to a major airline. Two checkride failures, forget about it. The Captain had about only 15-20 seconds to react to the situation, of which 10 seconds he was entering the approach in his flight computer
@@apurvitanna Thanks for the back story and agree with all that you said. If you go back and read my post, I'm speaking to derogatory comments referencing to diversity in the cockpit. It pissed me off when people start using race to define ability or inability. I appreciate the fact that you started your post with "the guy," instead of a guy of color. You're post provides important information. One of the things I suggest when training contract pilots on the Dash 8 is for the FP (when on the autopilot) to think about what you want, reach pause, see what you have, select what you want then verify you have you want. The NFP should pause what he or she is doing momentarily and verify the FP input. Thank for responding. Safe skies.....
@@aeroscout8409 Yes the FAA mandates, that each pilot should mention his/her actions and intentions, to ensure there is proper communication and CRM. The Captain had tunnel vision while entering input into the flight computer (pilots are trained to communicate for this reason), thus leading to break in communication and one pilot pulling on the yoke and another pushing (the co-pilot, experiencing somatogravic illusion). On the topic of race, there where rumours that co-pilot had threatened to sue a previous employer, for racial discrimination, when in fact he was unable to perform in tests (he always cited personal reasons) irrespective of his race, thus leading to this.
Terrible terrible tragedy for the crewmembers. My guess is they will be training inadvertent bumping of TOGA and that isn’t a bad idea. However there was nothing remotely resembling a stall. Maybe the roar of the engines was disorienting, but a 5* burble/pitch up and asp far far above stall speed? Button pushing def a problem - but no idea what actually constituted a stall is pretty amazing. The hard and fast rule is disconnect the automation and fly the airplane.
NTSB has screwed the pooch on posting again. Anybody have a link for the board meeting? NTSB, got a link for the board meeting? Shouldn't that be public?
We've only got anything saying one of them did, we don't know if the other was distracted or what else happened. And given the number of times I've had computers crash the last thing I'd want is to be on a plane with no human pilots.
As a 757/767 pilot and Instructor pilot for 20 years at a major US carrier (10,000 hours in type) here are a couple of observations. First of all, the TOGA levers are not "easy" to hit as some are saying here. In all my years and hours in this aircraft I cannot think of one instance where myself or folks I was flying with accidentally hit the TOGA levers. Apparently, this FO did. That said, had it happened most pilots would simply acknowledge that, opps, I hit the Go levers, disconnect the AP and Auto throttles and manually level off the aircraft asking the pilot monitoring to reset the flight directors and autopilots, tell ATC and continue the descent. For the non-pilots out there reading this, that's how this rare situation would have been handled by professional pilots who had progressed to flying transport category aircraft. It would have been a non-event. If the reports are true about this guys training and evaluation history, most US carriers would not have hired him and at some point in initial or recurrent training would have busted him. Given his history most carriers wouldn't have hired him.
Two weak birds on the flight deck, that much is for sure. With Atlas, I don't know if this FO was on the 747 at all, but in the 747 the A/T disconnect thumb switches are on the backside of the thrust levers, where the G/A switches are in the 767. Encountering turbulence maneuvering around weather in the descent, his speed started to drop off. With a jolt of turbulence that the video said was "light", he was at F1, GA mode armed, and I think he pushed the GA switch thinking he was disconnecting the A/T to correct the speed, jet pitched up, he thought he was stalling, disconnected and pitched over aggressively. A very firm "I have control" would have backed the FO off the flight controls, but I have a feeling the Captain stared in disbelief and just started pulling back while the FO continued to push forward. Like you, I am an IP, check airmen, FAA Examiner on both the 747 and 757 for over 30 years. I always warned guys transitioning from the 757 to the 747 to be careful not to confuse the A/T DISC switch on the 747 for the GA Switch on the 757. I have seen in the simulator in the heat of the moment guys push the DISC switch at minimums in the 747, thinking they are going to activate the GA mode. They usually catch it and then push a TOGA switch on the front side of the thrust levers, or manually advance the thrust levers and then push TOGA, habit patterns are hard to break if you were on the 757/767 for any length of time. Don't know for sure that is what happened here, but unfortunate for the jump seat rider, he had 2 weak guys at the controls...
I heard that from other 767 instructors, they have never seen a student accidentally press the TOGA levers. Why was he continually hired and kept by airlines?
@@Hedgeflexlfz I heard on another video that he was supposedly a "diversity hire" which confuses me
Grammar police here. I think you mean oops. Consider this just a verbal warning.
@@Hedgeflexlfz Apparently the FO was in the habit of wearing a very large wrist watch, and it may have been this that accidentally activated the G/A switch. He's seen wearing it in several photographs.
I keep thinking of that poor jumpseat pilot who was just hitching a ride. He had just been hired by a major (United I think) and was going to start class. Had a young stepdaughter and a new baby boy.
God comfort His wife & children in JESUS name !
I'm hoping they're finding peace & meaning despite the Tragedy....
@@hellosunshine1090 God could have prevented this, but oh well I guess.
@@MorganHillJr God is not your or anyone's cosmic butler. Thinking so is narcissistic. Sorry. Bad things happen to good people because this is an imperfect world.
@@DanielE15 I agree, the entire idea is ridiculous.
@@DanielE15 ... So why would "God comfort His wife & children in JESUS name !" ? Religion makes so much sense.... NOT!
Thank you once again NTSB for All that you do and your thorough explanations
288 knots and I'm stalling. Excellent.
my dude really took "you can stall in any airspeed at any attitude" to heart
Says the man making comments from the comfort of his couch. BMOC.
@@donmoore7785 gaming chair*
All he had to do is look at his instruments and ignore what he was feeling. I've been there, and I'm here to talk about it!
@@46bovine yeah, agreed. management and training, not to say vetting of inexperienced pilots that needed more time practicing flying by instrumentation. They simply should not have been on that flight, to begin with, it's just sad.
There's no amount of training or re-training that would have made this pilot competent.
That wasn't very diverse or inclusive of you.
Max Hardover lol
I strongly disagree
BUT I NEED MY PRIME DELIVERIES NOOOOOWWWWWWW
He was the company's greatest strength 💪!
Who else is here because of Juan Brown over at blancolirio ?
juan sent me
me 2
Me.🙂
Me 3
Me 4
This guy had no business flying a 767 - that much is clear.
I would go further and say anything not VFR. I'm going to wager a guess he snuck peeks through the hood during instrument training sessions and the CFI never caught it.
This is the type of person that will crash anything.
He was a diversity hire. Got to get them numbers up... any one else would of been fired long ago.
Cal Wayne Discrimination and prejudice
N. Ozdemir Can you explain what you mean by that?
This is what the back story here is: The guy who did this failed training at three other airlines. Failed his ATP checkride twice. Got hired at a small shitty airline then failed his simulator rides twice and didn’t upgrade. Failed his aircraft type rating checkride at his cargo airline. Accidentally hits a button while flying, panics and pushes the nose of the airplane over while low to the ground, reaches unheard of descent angle and airspeed, and kills him self and two others. Others said he would “start pushing a lot of buttons without thinking about what he was pushing.”
For 99.9% of pilots, a single checkride failure is frowned upon and needs explanation if they ever hope to get to a major airline. Two checkride failures, forget about it. Rumors said he threatened to sue for racial discrimination after his failures.
diversity is our strength
@@sygos gravity is racist
affirmative action strikes again! Too bad innocent people had to die, it could have been much worse
So being black equals bad pilot?
Or do you mean this guy should have not passed into becoming a pilot. It sounds like you are saying the pilot was not qualified and they had the evidence to prove he has not qualified.
What about other guy? They were both beginners if so, otherwise other one could have corrected the problem early.
Apparently one of the investigators at the NTSB said that the relative degree of sensory / somatographic illusion / disorientation could have felt like 80 degrees nose up. It probably was a really confusing sensation.
Which is why you trust your instruments.
Why didn't he look at his instruments when he sensed a "stall"? Especially when visibility is low you are trained to rely on your instruments rather than your senses. A simple glance at the airspeed indicator could've prevented this accident. As another commenter said it's a lack of basic airmanship. I see some similarities with AF447.
Panic
AF 447, and an upstate NY commuter flight a few years before; I don't recall the flight number. Pilot got an incorrect stall warning (on final, if I recall) and shoved the nose hard forward and held it there until they augured in. The plane could monitor stick force, and the report mentioned that he was applying something like 130 pounds of force to get the nose down to correct the stall warning.
The same thing applies to JFK Jr. If he had simply looked down at this attitude indicator and altimeter he would have known he was in a banking downward spiral. Some people just can't ignore their natural senses, which evolved down on the ground, and instead trust their instruments while flying a plane.
@@lwilton Colgan flight 3407 actually did stall because the plane leveled off and the pilot flying did not add power. When the stick shaker activated indicating that they were approaching stall the PF pulled back on the yoke- the opposite of the correct response to a stall. People theorize that the PF did this because he thought they had entered a tail plane stall.
When doing unusual attitude training for my PPL, my CFI had me put my head down with a hood on while he yanked and banked the aircraft to induce spacial disorientation. Boy did it work. When he gave me the controls back my senses told me we were in a steep left-turning dive. It was all I could do to trust the instruments and keep the plane straight-and-level. The sensations lasted about 20 seconds.
What impressed me about this animation: how short was the window of time from when TOGA was mistakenly activated to when the situation became irretrievable. Just about 25 seconds to confirmed doom.
Thinking about it, I'm also reminded of the Learjet crash at KTEB. And while I'm at it, I'll toss in the recent and tragic PIA crash, where they landed on their engines, essentially, before crashing for lack of power to finish what was by then a doomed decision to execute a too-late go around.
Mentally falling behind the airplane while on approach is a terrible place to be. Fortunately for the future aircrews who might study these accidents, valuable lessons are laid bare. Above all, know what you're doing and why. Poor airmanship placed all these crews in a position where superior airmanship would next be required to salvage the situation...and you can see the likelihood that this necessary skill would now be forthcoming.
I'm not on team-Airbus, with a mentality that making future designs even simpler for pilots and leaving the flying to the machine is the answer. A gallant crew of a 777 with two dead engines following an iced-up fuel system is but one (of many) examples that teach us the real, everlasting reason why we passengers want quality human flyers on deck, regardless of automation at their disposal. Automation is a valuable tool, but we still need everyday heroes who stand a chance of saving us from bad engineering, or situations some designer never contemplated, or could imagine. (And I recognize that in the present case, if this crew but trusted the automation, even activated in error, it was performing properly and would've kept them from harm while they caught up mentally. It's all part of the job of sound judgement.)
Aviation is exacting. Before this string of bad luck, the commercial side at least was a shining example of the best of both the engineering and human skill worlds. Aim higher.
I applaud the NTSB for its steady work in helping highlight the lessons still to be learned. I think we're doing this part right. We set blame aside for a time and concentrate on understanding what happened and how bad outcomes might be avoided in future.
Just like in AF447, the First Officer single-handedly crashed a perfectly functioning aircraft.
pitch + power = performance
At least in AF447, there was potentially confusing information on the instruments due to the iced pitot (at last as I understand it). Definitely not excusing the FO. I think I'm pretty smart overall, but I've never had to deal with a critical situation with multiple confusing inputs.
You get what you pay for.
And that's also result of:
- Friendship over professionalism;
- Low training
Flying is far beyond than pushing throttles forward.
Cameron Sours it wasn’t that confusing. The sped indicators were lost due to icing. All they had to do was to go to preset pitch attitude and thrust setting and wait for pitot heat to melt the ice which should be in the manuals
@@tomstravels520 even though i agree 100% with you, night time in the middle of the Atlantic in stormy weather can lead to any pilot being startled by a chime. Shouldn't end with the aircraft on the bottom of the sea though..
With a checkered career like that, you have to wonder why he wasn't grounded. There are many very good pilots, and then there are those who do not belong on the flight deck.
The difference is a matter of life and death.
Affirmative action
Too many people did not want to hurt his feelings.
AFFIRMATIVE ACTION litterally killed 2 innocent men.
@@KuostA No. Personal responsibility is always required. He knew he was failing. Nobody forced him to keep applying to new companies and failing to report his previous experience as required. AA literally enabled him to crash that plane but did not force him to be in that seat.
He (FO) also intentionally concealed his past employment and failures to hide his history of deficiency.
This is the result of getting promoted beyond one’s abilities. Unfortunately it happens in every occupation.
Read this Wikipedia article concerning this problem. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
then read this one en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action
@gilbert martinez I don't think they were given a choice.......
This wasn't his first "rodeo" with Atlas. I wonder how many other flight hours were flown with this guy and someone realized he didn't have what it took? I wonder how many of his pilot "peers" let him slide?
what do you mean promoted beyond one's abilites? he was HIRED by them? why is everyone on here blaming the candidate not hte company that allowed the candidate to put the captain and jumpseater in danger?
Wow he said “Lord have mercy on my soul” and related comments for quite a while before the impact. Did he just shut down and give up as soon as he felt like they were stalling?
Seems likely, doesn't it? That actually isn't unusual behavior. You panic and do something that you think should correct the problem, like push the stick hard forward. That doesn't seem to help, and you freeze up and just stop thinking, and just push the stick harder forward, hoping it will help.
l wilton panicky spastic types just aren’t tempered to succeed as pilots. This dope was at best delusional, at worst a reckless fraudster.
There are amazing similarities to EgyptAir 990 crash. He probably did this on purpose. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990
Yes he did. That's what you get with people that believe in bronze-age fairy tales. First sign of trouble 'ok god, i'm checking out'
@@MrHotSpurs1 he didn’t say that at the first sign of trouble, smart one; he said that within 10 seconds or so
Of the plane impacting the earth, when was there was nothing more he could do to stop the crash, and was within moments of death.
I want to know how the captain allowed the FO to full nose-down for more than five seconds. Count out 10 seconds to yourself. Its not a lot of time, but imagine going from a semi-level flight to being pitched forward nose down and not doing anything about it for that long. RIP what a tragic ending.
The report said the nose down position was unrecoverable. Near the end of the crash video it did appear that the dive leveled a bit but it was too late.
During the board meeting today, it was stated that the Captain had about 20 seconds to intervene.
An especially good comment, when taking into account what an amazingly
incompetent and undisciplined pilot the First Officer was observed to be...
My exact response: I cannot Fathom the inaction REQUIRED to allow this crash, unless you had a sudden loss of consciousness. I'm supposing the CVR could help confirm / deny that possibility
I found this article that says they were fighting each other on the yoke. The FO pushed forward, the captain pulled back. It wasn't later that FO started to pull back but it was too late
www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2020-01-13/ntsb-public-docket-reveals-crew-confusion-training-discrepancies-atlas-air-3591-downing%3famp
Yeah, from day 1 when I read about it I had a bad feeling it was a pilot mistake. Planes don't fall out of the sky randomly, and it was a very well-tested bird. Damn that happened fast, feels like you have more time in F1 race than these guys had...
17 seconds from controlled flight to ground impact
Ukraine is strong!
Just take one brief look at the pilot's disastrous employment history and everything "falls" into place...
i fail to understand your logic. if his employment history is so bad why did atlas air hire him? why are you not blaming the airline that put the captain and jumpseater into danger? what about the (white) captain's incompetence? he was 60 and flew 10,000 on an erj145. i'm pretty sure he tried finding right seat jobs with wn aa co ua us but they wouldn't look at him. or maybe i'm wrong he's a crappy pilot who was happy left seating on a 145 and only at the age of 55 did he decide he wanted to do 67 freigheters with atlas air (way better than fx ups abx or polar, right?) what kind of candidate and airline makes that into a 67 left seat? incompetence and negligence.
@@gotacallfromvishal He was threatening to use them for racial discrimination. The captain did what he could, considering there was grand total of 15 seconds to work with and an idiot first officer to wrestle over the controls.
I know someone at atlas and they told me this was an affirmative action hire. Not very surprising.
@@gotacallfromvishal It’s because of affirmative action, that’s why. Cause race means more than qualifications.
It's unbelievable, there was no indication of a stall! No stick shaker or air speed. Not everyone can be a pilot. It takes skills, talent and mentally strong to put in practice everything you learn through training to not panic and nose down the plane like that.
This is what happens with an 80 IQ and impulsive decision-making.
Reason there was no indication of a stall because there was no stall. Inexperienced "FO" (I was trained calling them co pilots) had Coriolis illusion and did not left to right; top to bottom his instruments and believe them.
@@allanc3655 The more significant illusion would be a somatogravic illusion due to the plane's unexpected acceleration leading to a feeling a pitching up. But the reason this pilot decided to trust this feeling instead of his instruments while in IMC no one will ever know...
@@Wazzup800 Bad pilots trust their feelings rather than the instruments.
Basically the same story as in the early days of flying the mail in bad weather: "When in doubt, fly needle, ball, and airspeed".
It is more complicated today, but the message is still the same .... it is senseless to depend on your senses.
No offence, but what does that mean? I get the airspeed one, but the others are a bit lost on me.
@@Matt_Alaric Flying the needle ball and airspeed is just another way of saying that you need to pay attention to the primary flight instruments when you can't see out the window.
For instance, every plane has a gyroscopic artificial horizon. It tells you the pitch and bank of an aircraft. You have airspeed, and altitude. You also have a turn coordinator (this is what technically has the ball from the original saying).
When the aircraft has no visual references due to fog or clouds, you need to know how to read your instruments. Spacial disorientation is only dangerous if you give into the senses. Or better yet, "relying on your senses is senseless."
SO LETS SAY YOU GET CONFUSED OR UNEASY.... just look at your pitch and airspeed. Keep level flight and don't stall and you'll be good! Unlike this FO that felt the plane accelerating so he simply just nosedived the aircraft without a second thought.
@@spiritspride46 Excellent. Thanks for the thorough reply 👍
I wish he was alone in the cockpit. Other people didnt deserve to die because of his stupidity.
exactly.!
@gilbert martinez Guess the Captain wasn't there to save the day, huh? So much for "white privilege" huh?
@@MIckveli2 In 2015, Blakely failed his proficiency test on the Boeing 767 and was placed in a monitoring program “as a result of [his] repetitive need for additional training.” Blakely was removed from the monitoring program in February 2017.
White privilege?
how can someone so incompetent sit on the right seat of a large aircraft? how many guys just like him are around flying?
One is one too many.
Diversity hiring in action.
@@flythec152 Was he a minority or something? I haven't heard anything about that...
David Dunsmore , Diversity hiring in aviation takes many forms.
Because, you know, white pilots don't duck up, right???
Yes it appears the first officer was prone to panic mode and only knew to mash buttons or flip switches as well as jerking movement of controls when faced with an issue. However the we assume higher time Captain and more proficient pilot what happened to him or was he overwhelmed by the FO reactions? The FO it sounds like he was a person that it was a matter of time before they made a fatal mistake. Thank you for sharing this.
Yes exactly right. In the meeting this morning that's what they were saying. Previous instructors said he would just push buttons and move controls in the sim without thinking about what he was doing when faced with an abnormal situation. One even called it a "trainwreck."
This is why you always fly using your instruments, not what you think you feel.
So did someone hit TOGA and not realize it? How did the PM not realize what was going on and take over since he was the Captain?
Well, they hit TOGA, but not sure what went wrong in the Copilot's head.
The pilot monitoring might have been distracted looking at charts for the airport, to set up the airplane for the approach from the other side in response to the radio call they received.
@@RubenKelevra Both pilots were extremely weak. Neither of them had any business being in that jet. The company is lucky it wasn't a pax plane.
@@desertr4062 the NTSB thinks otherwise
In the 757 and 767 cockpit is very easy to hit those buttons by mistake with your arm, as they are in the back of the throttle levers, and you must pass your arm just behind them to reach the Speed brake if you are on the FO side, or the Flap handle if you are on the Capt. Side.
You monitor whats supposed to be happening, and keep an eye out for things that aren't supposed to be happening; its almost i possible to scan all the non-primary instruments so its easy to miss TOGA for a few seconds. That said, primary instruments should have been enough in this instance.
That is a great video of the NTSB! Looks really bad though for the Pilots....
I mean they're dead.
@@RubenKelevra Aha.
Looks bad for the copilot. Poor captain took his eyes off that kid for 5 seconds... it's like babysitting.
No doubt that the pilots new that the first officer was a potentially deadly problem. Never relax...
@@2005kmcollins this isn't supposed to be the case. You're a two man crew, both are supposed to be able to do the flight and all emergency situations on it's own - it's a major failure in management which lead to the situation that this guy was even allowed to sit in this seat.
Thank you for posting these videos as I learn a lot from them. My question is in a situation like this does your brain go into extreme slow motion or does the crash happen so fast you don't have time to think about it?
I'd think that it depends on the person. Some people freeze up in the face of danger, and those people should not be pilots. I suppose for most pilots, their hear rate goes up, but that's about it
There can be as much as 30 seconds of "startle factor" that limit an effective response to an unexpected event, even in trained crew. During that time only reflex reactions can occur (stall recovery being a reflex reaction, engine failure is also a trained reflex reaction). Time can feel slowed down in it, but your head is scrambling to make sense of the unexpected information.
Pilots train hard to minimize this startle factor, but it's basic human nature to experience it.
They hit the water/ground at over 400 knots. This translates to 205 meters per second. If the pilots seated in the cockpit seats occupied, let's say, four feet horizontally, or 2.1 meters (from their feet to the back of their head) then the crushing of the nose of the aircraft would obliterate and pulverize their bodies in a timespan of 10 milliseconds, or ten one-thousandths of one second.
Human nerve conduction velocity, on average, is about 40 meters per second. That's the speed that pain signals travel to reach the brain. At 40 meters per second, it would take a pain signal 50 milliseconds to travel 2 meters. A pilot's brain would be obliterated before any pain signals could be conducted to it.
I'm sure this arithmetic gives some comfort to people who work in the bomb squad.
Look at these technicians who are testing the Boeing717 (DC9) ua-cam.com/video/L2CsO-Vu7oc/v-deo.html do not expect an upside down stall, look at the reactions of the second pilot who tries with his hand to help giving advice to the pilot in command, after they come out of the stall they compliment each other for be able to stabilize the plane. everything lasts a few seconds and you can still feel the force in G when the plane turns on itself and swoops. This accident is not the pilot's fault see my comment.
@@flavion1259 I'm not here to say who's at fault or not, but the video you linked was an test flight demonstrating the stall characteristics, specifically for a maneuver called a spin, all of which was planned and intentional, and executed very well.
The Atlas plane did not experience a spin, or even a stall for that matter, though the pilot flying might have identified it as such because of the similarity in G forces felt by the inner ear when the Go Around mode was inadvertently activated. The TSB stated that he incorrectly performed a stall recovery..... I don't see how your video link proves otherwise.
In my opinion, the two videos are completely different, and similarities can't be drawn between the two.
Gives you the chills just to watch.
20 seconds for a routine flight to escalate into tragedy. That is shocking.
Diversity is our strength
What REALLY surprises me here is that the plane apparently hit 433 knots and didn't break apart. That's mind blowing. How is that possible?!
Because it only remained at that speed for a few seconds before impact.
@@icemachine79 sure but still that's a lot of stress on the airframe and should easily take a few panels off.
@@Kaipeternicolas Sure, if the speed is maintained long enough. Both China Airlines 006 and FedEx 705 nearly broke the sound barrier during a high-speed uncontrolled dive, and both planes sustained damage to their elevators and control surfaces. But they were still able to land safely.
So glad that you share this with us. It makes it understandable, but we need someway to stop these from happening!
Better training and looking at your instruments when you can’t see the horizon outside
This should have been a non-event; disengage AT & A/P, establish positive aircraft control, re-engage automation and continue. Instead, due to the FO’s ineptitude, it resulted in a crash. RIP
My CFI explained a similar phenomenon to me when I was doing my night requirements. Acceleration pushes you back into your seat in such a way that when you don't have an outside visual reference (at night, or in clouds), the body thinks the airplane is climbing steeply. It feels the same as far as your brain is concerned. He advised a lot of pilots have gotten into trouble in a hurry when flying at night because they mistakenly push the nose over too far when adding power because they think the aircraft is pitching up more than it actually is. I'm guessing that sensation hit him, and he assumed the aircraft was nose-high and heading for a stall. This appears to be the exact kind of panicked reaction that caused him to fail his previous checkrides. Panic followed by reaction, instead of panic followed by evaluation, then acting based on all the information in front of him. In most it can point to a training issue, but with his history, it really seems like it points to, maybe he should have gone for a different career.
Somatogravic Illusion
The somatogravic illusion is a vestibular illusion which is prevalent during high accelerations/deccelerations when a pilot has no clear visual reference (Wilson, 1995 8).
The word Somatogravic is derived from somato meaning ‘of the body’ and gravic meaning ‘pertaining to the gravitational force’ and is a strong pitching sensation (either up or down) when the body is exposed to either high acceleration or decelerations (Kern, 1998 1). This illusion is due to the interaction of unnatural accelerations (such as those experienced in an aircraft) on our Otolith Organs, specifically our utricle
aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/aviation:somatogravic-illusion
It's interesting how the feeling they had of climbing steeply was precisely the opposite problem of what Air France 447 had. The pilots on that flight were convinced they were going too fast and too low when the opposite was the case. So you can have the wrong feeling of what is happening in both directions, so to speak.
Does take long to hit the ground (water) if you point it down from 6000 ft does it?
300 knots is 500ft per second. So at 5,000', not long at all.
Nope
CLICK CLICK
CLICK CLICK
...yikes that happened fast!
but will my blender still arrive in 1 day?
Captain should have been on top of this situation.
How to F/O can be so incompetent? Was he rested and trained properly?
Hired due to skin color b
Take a look at his past performance at other employers and it will become clearer.
He was an affirmative action pick. I speak as a pioneer in aviation. Starting on heavy equipment in the early 80's. I did not see any other women for many years. Then suddenly everybody had to hire various minorities to fill quotas. Some were very good. Some were well, well below average. They were needed to get government contracts. Atlas probably has such contracts. The pilot pay at Atlas is very low so they just put warm bodies in the seats. The Captain also was not a career pilot. He started late as a second career. This is the kind of jobs these guys get. The danger is when you bid a line and get stuck flying with them. These two both appeared weak. That is the danger at certain second or third tier operators. Although I have flown with several white males who were struggling with the job, with low cognitive ability and unpleasant personality profiles. Aviation should require cognitive tests before training begins. These are illegal in the civilian world. The military uses them extensively with good results. Usually ground school and simulator training weeds them out. A few months ago there was a dire pilot shortage and thus a pilot such as this FO was hired.
See @rodzac comment above regarding employment and training issues. If these comments about Affirmative action hiring are true, another example of how "good intentions" are destroying the USA. Some jobs should be 100% Merit/ability based with no tought about diversity. Maybe ties go to a diversity candidate. I've never understood lowered standards for anyone. IMO this should be a colorless, sexless society. In 1968, as a male at 5'9" 140#s I was too short and light to qualify for LAFD regardless of strength, conditioning. Minimum for A man 5'10 @160lbs. A year or two later those minimums were lowered to 5'7" at 125 lbs for female "only" new hires. In today's PC culture world, I'm so happy my time here is in the late fall, early winter of my life. I weep for my son....
Diversity hires in a nutshell.
"We're stalling" with the IAS past the barber pole & ADI completely orange.. Incredible.
He could be sky blue pink, ethnicity isn't the problem here. It's the ability to fly the aircraft competently after being trained to do so .
The fact that he was allowed to progress to this position just to tick diversity boxes is absolutely part of the problem.
Ethnicity becomes a problem, if someone is hired BECAUSE they are of a certain ethnicity/skin color - solely for the sake of diversity :(
Hiring of pilots should be based on whether they are qualified, not on their skin color.
You said speed brakes could only be retracted manually? I thought after the Colombian American Airlines crash (in a 757) auto stow became mandatory, when throttles were advanced for go around, they are to stow. Did I misread the report?
It looks like speed brakes were deployed after TO/GA was activated.
@@TrentonLipscomb no, they was extended before
I don't think so, it was just a recommendation to evaluate this. I mean it makes sense, but wasn't a contributing factor for this accident anyway.
After the Cali crash it was required that there be an aural warning, and EICAS message if thrust levers are advanced with speed brakes deployed. Prior to that crash, there was no aural/EICAS caution in that situation
This is why the automation also needs to communicate what it's doing in plain human language. The automation doesn't act like a teammate; it doesn't call out what it's doing. If the automation had said "We're going around. I have the aircraft. Throttles to max, vertical speed nulled. You have the aircraft." then the PF wouldn't have thought they were stalling. The TOGO will get accidentally pressed; the automation should not assume this is intentional, then rapidly reconfigure the plane in total silence. BTW, I'm treating "bleeps" and "bloops" or "new flight mode displayed on the screen" as silence, because they are not spoken human language that you can still easily interpret under stress (i.e., the bleeding heart of CRM).
Yeah I'm also liking the MD-80 approach to warn for example for "stabilizer motion" instead of clicking and "altitude" instead of "beep".
Even though I agree with your idea, this guy was incredibly untrained and not suit8to fly at all. I'm convinced if his surface controls were disabled he would have done something else more dramatic.
@@MathasarSalazar2 just don't get why the other pilot had so little situation awareness. I mean you grab it and put the throttle to 80% and just focus on the virtual horizon. That's the most basic recovery training ... 🙄
@@RubenKelevra The captain apparently hit his head gertting into his seat after the lav. He was bleeding. Maybe he was distracted by getting that under control?
This is a really good idea. The clicks, beeps & bloops seem to increase the panic / startle factor?
I counted about 15 seconds from the start of the event to impact. That's horrifying.
PF failed to adequately fly.
PM failed to adequately monitor.
Dual pilot failures can be deadly.
Did you not read that the elevator control was split, with one pilot pulling hard and the FO pushing hard until they broke out. I think perhaps the NTSB to the PC route to not disclose the content of the CVR during the descent. It might explain more factors as to why the pilot could not get the FO to release the elevator.
@@olbuck
> I think perhaps the NTSB to the PC route to not disclose the content of the CVR during the descent.
I'm interested. Can you elaborate on this?
That video footage. Man!!
That poor jump seater was just a new hire trying to get to work. This is infuriating.
You can experience the same feeling on the ground, at night, in heavy fog, on a long causeway, over the water, in a car. I didn't crash, but the short ride seemed to go on forever. Very sad. Luckily they didn't crash into the City.
Incredible! I have been wondering what the cause of accident was on this one, as this has been one of the few accidents in modern time that has left me with an inability to even guess what happened without the facts. So it will be accredited to inaccurate stall realization due to Somatogravic illusion. I haven’t heard much mention to my next point, and I don’t want to point any unnecessary fingers, just a theory - has anyone considered that this was a possible suicide CFIT? On the CVR, the FO can be heard saying multiple times while holding the nose hard over, “Lord have mercy on my soul” “have mercy”.
It was such an elementary principle of instrument flying, it causes concern that it was intentional. Very sad thing to consider, and may they all Rest In Peace, again I don’t want to speak poorly of the deceased in any way. This is merely my contribution towards the science of the accident and safety investigation.
A terrifying lack of fundamental instrument awareness. "where is my airspeed?" 288kts!? Even an SR71 stalls at 210kts (lvl flt)
When Go-Around was activated the airplane quickly exceeded the speed limit for the current flaps condition. The F.O. saw red - the red tape on the airspeed indication which signified the flap limit exceedance. He panicked. He thought he was looking at low-speed, stall area red. He pushed (fight or flight reaction...) His brain was nowhere in sight. He was simply acting on animal survival instinct. He was a sixth-grader sitting in a college Senior classroom. He was in way over his head. He freaked; they died.
Pilots didn't use their instruments properly.
Well, the first officer anyway.
Or maybe the FO was a complete nutcase and didnt understand a 767 doesn't stall at 235 knots at 3000ft and panicked, plunging the plane into its demise.
Affirmative action and equity YAY!
dont you look at your speed to see if you are stalling? I mean, it makes sense to me but yea.
Yes, exactly! And they did. It was rapidly decaying, THEY dumped the nose, the Captain was flying at this point, and the rest is history. But it's hard for anyone to even remotely think that the NTSB got this completely wrong, so the band keep playing
@@WeTubeIn90210 [trumpet sounds]
@@WeTubeIn90210 you have 0 evidence
I'm not a pilot but this sounds like it's totally on the flight crew.
It's on the company that hired that specific F/O under govt pressure to fill in quotas and become a compliant company.
Ok what did we find out about this trajedy, documented history of FO's failure to perform to standards, failed check rides, no indication of stahl warning, perfectly operational set of working instruments, FAA's failure to appropriately react getting a badly needed system in place, to mention some of the serious and most obvious. What is going to be done to prevent this senless loss of life from happening again?
Could we please have the HDG indicator with LNAV and an altitude tape?
Wow this is so sad. It was an avoidable accident
Was there any info on the experience and years of service of the pilots?
There are detailed reports on the NTSB's website.
If you missed it live this morning I would recommend watching the replay of the board meeting. Both flight crew had ample experience. Despite having about 5,000 hours, there was a focus on the FO's record of failing checks at previous employers. He never should have been hired. They did not have the full report at his interview, but they received it later and it was reviewed. But the process included a 3rd party company and the person who reviewed the records did not have to have any flight experience.
GOD SPEED. THANK NTSB. SALUDOS
Sad. May them rest in peace.
HE DIDN'T FLY SO GOOD
Crashing this plane...with no survivors
@@littlesaintwilliamofnorwic8500 more like no qualifications lmao
Let me chime in ... there are 2 pilots one pilot is the “flying pilot” one pilot is the radio and monitor pilot .. i am a 767 captain and i fly with all kind of first officers .. my main job when I’m not flying is to MONITOR the aircraft... first officers of ALL RACES and background military or civilian are different . Some have more experience than others ... even EXPERIENCED first officers can mess up ... my JOB is to know what is happening with my aircraft in all phases of flight... the simple answer for any situation i feel
My FO can not handle is “MY CONTROLS”.... The simple answer any time i want the aircraft is MY CONTROLS... if your PAST is that bad it will come to light on the line.. I’ve flown with pilots of all races who in my opinion had skills that were t what i thought were the best and never did i dig into how or why they were hired .. as a captain this captain should have taken the controls.. you fly long enough white guys who make up most of the industry will make a
Mistake , black guys will make a mistake , asians will make a mistake , women will make a mistake... if we looked at every major crash in the industry and looked at the race of the pilot is that the reason for the crash... no pilot is perfect and this FO put the airplane in a position where a good captain should have easily gotten them out of it
And honestly this country needs to turn off the news .. go back to a time when the news was 30 minutes in the day... you guys are so brain washed Left Vs Right .... left wing and right wing on my plane are all connected to the same aircraft.... stop politicizing every F*n scenario
Honorable Robert Llewellyn Sumwalt III, please post the video of the board meeting on this channel.
Yes, I'd definitely like to watch the board meeting. Thank you.
It's up. Thanks for posting. Many of us appreciate it
How in the hell do you design a go around button that can accidentally be pressed?
By designing it so it *can* be pressed. Even if it has a cover over it and another knob you have to turn on the other side of the cockpit first. If someone becomes convinced that it is the water dispenser knob the will still press it at the wrong time. And wonder what is wrong with the water dispenser when their cup remains empty.
If you make it harder to press then when you really need to press it you might not be able to do it fast enough.
You cannot idiot proof everything. What was needed here was for Atlas management to keep the idiot out of the cockpit. 20+ years in transports. Never seen anything like this in a cockpit flown by two guys who knew what they were doing.
All it takes is 30 seconds. wow.
THE FACTS:at 12:36.07 F/O has problem with his EFI (electronic flight instruments)
at 12:36.09 F/O hands control to the captain,because he has an EFI (electronic flight instruments) problem.
at 12:37.07 F/O presses EFI switch to change to alternate display generator.F/O Says "EFI.."
at 12:37.08 F/O says "i got it back" meaning his display is back
at 12:37.09 Captain says "now it's back ((laughs)" comfirming F/O has his displays back.
at 12:37.11 F/O says "i press EFI button it fixes everything"
at 12:37.23 Captain hands controls back to the F/O
at 12:38.45 "where's my speed,my speed?"
at 12:38.48 "We're stalling!"
at 12:38.50 "Stall!"
at 12:39.03 CRASH.
Who,in their right mind,can say this crash is NOT related to what was being displayed to the F/O on his faulty electronic flight instruments ??
the professional investigators that showed that the speed indicators were working just fine before the crash. the pilots were terrible.
@@Lingboysc2 I'd like to know how they showed his EFI display was working correctly,there's still no data on why he switched over,probably never will be.
The timing is just too close.
@@rafbarkway5280 the FDR
@@Lingboysc2 Hi,FDR only knows some of the computer data,It cannot see the EFI's or what the charicter generator (graphics) is doing, any data on all three references agreeing at all times? that might be on the FDR!
I did my entire 5000 hours without an autopilot way back in the 60s.....pre glass cockpit obviously.
There don’t seem to be any stick n rudder pilots around anymore .
Was recovering from the nosedive but too low. The shattered wreckage ended up in the water.
Lord here. Though He let me have his soul all I could do was help NTSB find the flight recorder.
He switched from passenger airlines to cargo jets. Can't fault him for that.
Im curious to know how TOGA activated at 6000ft.
accidentally activated by the first officer.
@@Lingboysc2 it doesnt work usually above 2500ft.
@@Senseigainz I haven't seen that, might have to read the 767 documentation.
Mentor pilot covered this excellently
A professional tracking system for pilots, doctors, firemen, etc. would surely save lives.
How so? There is already a very complex and regulated system in Aviation for tracking training and hours.
Police...
It doesn't matter when affirmative action rules and managers are afraid of being fired themselves cuz o raciss
Even crazier, there is some nitwit on the NTSB debrief video comments blaming the Captain(!) for not saving the plane from crashing!!!!
It's not a nitwit comment. The captain was PILOT IN COMMAND. Ultimately responsible, if not the cause of the crash.
He did not tell the FO to relinquish controls. He should have said "MY PLANE" or "MY CONTROLS". It seemed he was making the right moves (it appears he was pulling back) but he was "fighting" the FO who was pushing the nose down. Especially with a panicked FO.
I'm sure he wishes he had taken over.
Although completely different aircraft, the phenomenon is similar to the Kobe Bryant crash. Pilot thinks he is pitching up, when in fact he is level, and he responds by diving the aircraft into the ground.
The same thing applies to JFK Jr. If he had simply looked down at this attitude indicator and altimeter he would have known he was in a banking downward spiral. Some people just can't ignore their natural senses, which evolved down on the ground, and instead trust their instruments while flying a plane.
Why did it go into Go Around mode? That seems to have started the whole fiasco. We have all ridden with pilots who we wondered "how did this person ever get here?" Hopefully, they get weeded out through a less fatal mechanism.
the plane said da n wurd
its totally unbelieavable a 767 was put down em 2019!!
Who even let this fool into the cockpit
1968 civil rights act which requires hiring quotas for "racial minorities" aka non whites
@@sygos I wonder if whites will be given special privileges once they are a racial minority in the United States (in about 30 years, doubt it lol)
Interesting comments. For the record, a tragic accident like this is terrible and heart breaking no matter what race, creed or color. I have witnessed plenty of pilots, male/female/black/white, from ERAU, military, Part 91, 121, 135 and 142 operations advanced with questionable flight training records. Although Aska was at the controls, the captain is responsible for and is the final authority on the operation of the aircraft. I figure that everyone making comments on this post with extensive careers in aviation would know that and have never made a mistake on the flight deck. L'm just guessing. Yes, Aska made some tragic mistakes, but the captain should be monitoring the instruments and flight conditions threw out the entire flight. It is a matter of record that " The board found that the captain, 60-year-old Ricky Blakely, had failed to intervene to stop the crash." So let's put this diversity bullshit to rest, pray for the crew and their families, and do what we can do as professional pilots to ensure something like this doesn't happen in your flying career. Safe skies, Scouts Out!!!!!!!
I would hope the capt knows who he's flying with but I guess that training background is confidential. If an incompetent pilot has been hired for sociopolitical reasons then it is clearly an issue , along with the failure of the captain to intervene . It's the old 'daisychain' isn't it ? You don't put significant factors 'to rest' if you don't want a repeat . As an MD , I'm constantly having to prove my competency . We have a central body for oversight - the GMC in the UK . Maybe there needs to be a central , independent body responsible for air crew oversight in each country .
This is what the back story here is: The guy who did this failed training at three other airlines. Failed his ATP checkride twice. Got hired at a small shitty airline then failed his simulator rides twice and didn’t upgrade. Failed his aircraft type rating checkride at his cargo airline.
admiralcloudberg.medium.com/legacy-of-a-lie-the-crash-of-atlas-air-flight-3591-519a3a7bd6ec
Accidentally hits a button while flying, panics and pushes the nose of the airplane over while low to the ground, reaches unheard of descent angle and airspeed, and kills him self and two others. Others said he would “start pushing a lot of buttons without thinking about what he was pushing.”
For 99.9% of pilots, a single checkride failure is frowned upon and needs explanation if they ever hope to get to a major airline. Two checkride failures, forget about it. The Captain had about only 15-20 seconds to react to the situation, of which 10 seconds he was entering the approach in his flight computer
@@apurvitanna Thanks for the back story and agree with all that you said. If you go back and read my post, I'm speaking to derogatory comments referencing to diversity in the cockpit. It pissed me off when people start using race to define ability or inability. I appreciate the fact that you started your post with "the guy," instead of a guy of color.
You're post provides important information. One of the things I suggest when training contract pilots on the Dash 8 is for the FP (when on the autopilot) to think about what you want, reach pause, see what you have, select what you want then verify you have you want. The NFP should pause what he or she is doing momentarily and verify the FP input. Thank for responding. Safe skies.....
@@aeroscout8409 Yes the FAA mandates, that each pilot should mention his/her actions and intentions, to ensure there is proper communication and CRM. The Captain had tunnel vision while entering input into the flight computer (pilots are trained to communicate for this reason), thus leading to break in communication and one pilot pulling on the yoke and another pushing (the co-pilot, experiencing somatogravic illusion).
On the topic of race, there where rumours that co-pilot had threatened to sue a previous employer, for racial discrimination, when in fact he was unable to perform in tests (he always cited personal reasons) irrespective of his race, thus leading to this.
@@DrTWG In that case the system failed by succumbing to the "squeaky wheel" syndrome.
This a 737 Max?
This is Boeing 767
ohhh lawd what I be doing up in dis cockpit
"Fly dat plane Kang!...Fly!"
my question is.. where the H was the pilot then???
Terrible terrible tragedy for the crewmembers. My guess is they will be training inadvertent bumping of TOGA and that isn’t a bad idea. However there was nothing remotely resembling a stall.
Maybe the roar of the engines was disorienting, but a 5* burble/pitch up and asp far far above stall speed? Button pushing def a problem - but no idea what actually constituted a stall is pretty amazing.
The hard and fast rule is disconnect the automation and fly the airplane.
Honest to god, but that was my bad.
RIP to those on the flight deck.
Couldn't he have just looked at his attitude indicator to see that the plane was nosediving? I am not a pilot.
Sad
So this is why some of our Amazon package never arrives...
Its prime air or atlas air
Sure seems like like pilot error in VFR. Thanks for posting and keeping everyone informed!
Just keep them in NBA and away from serious and responsible jobs...
RIP
that 767 was traveling 433 knots when it impact the ground
it should be in thousans if not millions of piece
NTSB has screwed the pooch on posting again. Anybody have a link for the board meeting? NTSB, got a link for the board meeting? Shouldn't that be public?
Sounds like a suicide to me.
If man were meant to fly they would have given him instruments to look at.
OMG - how sad.
The fact both pilots thought it was the same situation is worrying to me. Maybe automation isn’t a bad thing?
We've only got anything saying one of them did, we don't know if the other was distracted or what else happened. And given the number of times I've had computers crash the last thing I'd want is to be on a plane with no human pilots.