Book a place for my birthday ceilidh at scotlandfolktours.wetravel.com/trips/bruce-s-60th-birthday-bash-ceilidh-scotland-folk-tours-48572134 What if William Wallace was never captured? ua-cam.com/video/ir4lXlzUMaw/v-deo.html Buy me coffee at www.buymeacoffee.com/ScottishBruce
Excellent roundtable discussion Bruce. I enjoy the "What ifs" It's interesting how pivotal certain moments in history are, and the What Ifs are excellent for driving home just how important those moments are.
BUT ARE THEY REALLY OUR HERO'S ... most were French/norman's that landed in the borders from Wales who did not care much for our history or the scot / Irish scots family's, they would kill and destroy those clans .you could call it ethnic cleansing these days .. Bruce was a sociopath like many lords and leaders of the time .. its a land grab and with that you would put your man in power .. Are the English Norman any better ..not one bit they did the same through out England from 1066 into the 1400s ... what makes them a hero to us scot's now .. its a Romanic outlook we all feel something inside when go to Bannockburn or read about THE BATTLE because we all know the outcome . do we feel the same about James the5th, 4th. 3rd . 2nd .or the 1st most folk don't know anything about these kings ...these hero's were very much like mafia bosses...once you take away the short bread tin affect from them.
You are so brave in recognizing your Scottish and African History. I worked at Barber-Scotia College which is not closed. The Scotia part was a small HBCU which was called Soctia Seminary and was named for Princess Scotia who was from Egypt.
Bruce Sir ye done it again, Brilliant Sir, keep goin yer a breath o fresh air in aw the S&*&e we have thrown at us. Bruce ye have my undying respect Sir, aw the best and a hope ye prosper. SAOR ALBA GU BRATH. 👍👍👍
If Bruce had been killed by de Bohun or the battle had gone the other way, second order consequentials would have set in in time to give us the Declaration of Arbroath and the Treaty of Northampton. Great video, Bruce. You all obviously had fun making it.
I just love these 'what if' videos with Fiona and Martin ... especially when they disagree! 😄 Beside it being hilarious to see the two interact, it's these parts, where there's no consensus, that are most interesting! ❤
Hello Bruce, Thanks for bringing back these two lovely proper Historians. Please say hello two both of them. I enjoy listening to them. But I hate your What If question this time. I agree messed up vid. lol Man I know nothing about Scotland at all. I feel very schooled. I just found out bruce had a brother. Yes I feel silly. Hugs Bruce and Crew!! Yes laugh I so would.
Bruce, as a future suggestion what if for you to discuss an interesting topic would be, what if James V declined the offer of the English Crown. Would there have still been peace between the two countries? Would Scotland have been drawn into English wars after this? Would Oliver Cromwell have decimated the Scottish Feudal System and caused the Highland Clearances? And later, would Scotland still have invented everything we are famous for, when we were in the British Empire???
Cheers Bruce an interesting piece. The Scottish / English wars can also be be seen as a civil war amongst ruling Norman families, in which too many English and Scottish common men died. The Scottish common man gained nothing except an extra few hundred years of feudalism under their noble families. Luckily the English had magna carta and English common law.
Bruce, FYI. My people grew out of the soil of Angus and Perthshire and to it most of them returned. To this day there remains a vacant space in that soil, in Alyth, that is waiting to be filled. We will see.
Brilliant video Bruce. Going beyond the basic victory or defeat scenario, anything but a King Robert victory would have had cataclysmic consequences. The number of people who have lived and those still living because of that victory must be in the millions. Imagine an Edward II victory. The prisoner swap of the English captured at Bannockburn and the Scottish knights taken at Kildrummy Castle probably wouldn’t take place the way it did. Potential marriages and births all never happening. Robert Stewart doesn’t become king. He doesn’t have 20+ children and 80+ grandchildren. The offspring of his daughters’ and granddaughters’ marriages into the Douglas, Dunbar, Lindsay, Keith, MacDonald and many more families never happening, Every Monarch of Scots, of the Union of the crowns and of the United Kingdom having never been born because of a non Robert I victory. Absolute nightmare scenario. Even with an Edward Bruce victory it all changes. Now, after saying all that. Have a great day. 😂
I like the ideas of these videos. I would LOVE to see something similar with writers of historical fiction to see where their creativity takes them. Say Andrew Grieg or James Robertson.
All sorts of different things can happen, but it sounds like once Robert the Bruce had been running things for a while it became near-certain that there would be an independent Scotland (at least culturally distinct), but there remained a great many possible variations in the details of what the true statement "Scotland is a distinct country" actually meant.
If the Spanish Armada had successfully landed I think that Elizabeth Tudor would have been just a footnote in history. A spanish Scottish/French Alliance would have been devastating for the Tudors.
The preparation for the Scottish campaign by Edward II was a shambles. His relationship with Piers Gaveston succeeded in pssng off large numbers of some of the best of the English knights who decided that there was some unmissable tele to watch or they had to wash their hair instead of going North with a person they held in the profoundest contempt. Edward had no military skill or detectable leadership qualities and was an arrogant person who succeeded in pssng off many of those who had gone North with him, hence the low morale. The Scots were fortunate that they faced Edward, a leader fundamentally unsuited to the role he had at Bannockburn
Maybe life for the Scottish after the battle of Culloden could be an indicator of what life would have been like if the British had won at Bannockburn. I believe QE II is also related to the Stuart dynasty.
I've always found the what if's a pointless question and approach in history. What if this, what if that... the point is that the English didn't win... end of! A mute point. A great video all the same. Cheers.
A'reyt again Bruce. Having just watched Shebahn video on her coverage of Euros, I imagined her popping up after the loss to ask Robert "What did you think of the English chanting that Scotland get battered everywhere they go?"
Hiya Bruce, what football team do you support? in England I support Newcastle, in Scotland I support Kelty Hearts, if English had won the battle of Bannockburn, surely the scots would sing Scotland the Brave, as the national anthem, do you know the students from that area play Rugby Union on the site where the battle of Bannockburn took place, this is Paul (aka Choppy) in Whitehaven, Cumbria, England
@@ScotlandHistoryTours Hiya Bruce, have you subscribed to Footy Adventures? Sam is from London but lives in Hamilton, Glasgow, most of the time Sam goes to every level leagues of Scottish football
Bruce and the others would have continued to fight on, perhaps returning to a guerilla war initially as he negotiated with other lords for more support with men, etc, which would initially have been more difficult in the first few years after the failure at Bannockburn but as he won more and more small battles more and make would have agreed to more support. Not sure when or where that battle may have been, perhaps a Bannockburn II. Or maybe a Stirling Bridge II.
England is my second favourite part of Scotland. England became part of Scotland when King James VI became King of England (James I to those southerners).
James VI ancestors from Shropshire and Brittany, the Scots common men and women were just serfs of another Norman family. All of the Scottish / English wars after 1200 to 1700 are power grabs from Norman noble houses. Regards from a southerner.
@@StephenKane-fx3od Nations can be extinguished. The Kingdom of Northumbria for example is long gone, a footnote in the history books. Others are completely forgotten about as if they never existed at all.
@@igorscot4971 Northumbria and the other English kingdoms were forced into a single unitary unit with Danish invasion. Same for Scotland with the Norwegian vikings. Once a Kingdom or more accurately a country is established for centuries not so easy to wipe that collective belonging. Kingdoms and sense of statehood were more fluid in 10th C. 3 Cs after so called UK came into being more Scots still identify as being Scottish rather than British. Figure would be considerably higher if not for reformation. Religion is the main reason UK came into being, well apart from English wanting to control the northern flank threat.
These two "experts" come across as extremely nervous and shifty, reminds me of the interview of the three astronauts who had just come back from the " moon"! 😂 Do these two know something that we dont?😮 The whole Bannockburn thing has sat uneasy with me these past few years. Where are all the thousands of dead bodies buried for a start? Surely if they were buried in the bogs they died in they would mostly have been preserved? Its happened before! There has been numerous archaeology digs and practically nothing has been found as far as Im aware. The logistics too, thousands of men, horses and other animals marching hundreds of miles would have been a huge undertaking in medieval times, and for what? Nah its all a bit too neatly wrapped up and labelled for me. Maybe its just me but as the years roll by Im finding it all a bit to much to swallow 😊 Still love the show though big fella 😊.
@@patrickhumphreys4753 So we started with him being Norman, we've now moved to him having something to do with Anglo Norman. When we get to him being decended from his four times great grandfather Robert de Brus who came from Normandy, on his father's side and a Gael on his mother's side then we'll have reached agreement.
@patrickhumphreys4753 We've travelled a distance. Eitheir you know Bruce spoke Gaelic and French and you're wasting both our time, or you're suggesting everyone, was defined by the language of the court, in which case you're wasting both our time. I'm going to finish my coffee, then off to make better use of mine. All the best
Not really worried about what might in history happen and what might have happened is anyone guess. And you put a room of experts together and you get different answers 😂
What would have happened if there were actual Royal (Celtic) Scots fighting for their independence instead of Norman French people like De Bruce (I notice Scots always conveniently forget the 'De' bit) leading the real Scots clansmen against against the Norman English descendants?
Bruce, how about a lesson on the greatest scotsman who ever lived and the only non Russian to have a street named after him in Russia, the great John Maclean? ✊🏴
Yes, good call, but the only non-Russian to have a street named after him in Russia? Hogwash. Just off the top of my head, there’s Garibaldi Street in Moscow, a LOT of Karl Marx Streets, Indira Ghandi Square……give me some time on Wikipedia and I could go on. By the way, Maclean Street in St Petersburg is now called English Street. The horror. See this is why we need our own ambassadors.
Book a place for my birthday ceilidh at scotlandfolktours.wetravel.com/trips/bruce-s-60th-birthday-bash-ceilidh-scotland-folk-tours-48572134
What if William Wallace was never captured? ua-cam.com/video/ir4lXlzUMaw/v-deo.html
Buy me coffee at www.buymeacoffee.com/ScottishBruce
*King Bruce Fummey starts our Saturdays off right per usual!* Thank you Bruce! Alba gu Bráth! 🏴
I love these "What If" videos. I'm a big fan of counterfactual history, and exploring it with Scottish history is even better!
Brilliant
Excellent roundtable discussion Bruce. I enjoy the "What ifs"
It's interesting how pivotal certain moments in history are, and the What Ifs are excellent for driving home just how important those moments are.
Good morning Bruce, nice debate. Enjoy your weekend 💙🏴
Thanks, you too!
We need to hear more about our heroes
BUT ARE THEY REALLY OUR HERO'S ... most were French/norman's that landed in the borders from Wales who did not care much for our history or the scot / Irish scots family's, they would kill and destroy those clans .you could call it ethnic cleansing these days .. Bruce was a sociopath like many lords and leaders of the time .. its a land grab and with that you would put your man in power .. Are the English Norman any better ..not one bit they did the same through out England from 1066 into the 1400s ... what makes them a hero to us scot's now .. its a Romanic outlook we all feel something inside when go to Bannockburn or read about THE BATTLE because we all know the outcome . do we feel the same about James the5th, 4th. 3rd . 2nd .or the 1st most folk don't know anything about these kings ...these hero's were very much like mafia bosses...once you take away the short bread tin affect from them.
A particularly good video, Bruce. And yours is a really high bar.
You are so brave in recognizing your Scottish and African History. I worked at Barber-Scotia College which is not closed. The Scotia part was a small HBCU which was called Soctia Seminary and was named for Princess Scotia who was from Egypt.
I don't understand
@@ScotlandHistoryTours Please see my above reply.
Ya beauty it’s the brucey fumey show -thanks again for all that you offer up fella coyp and come on you sainteees
Bruce Sir ye done it again, Brilliant Sir, keep goin yer a breath o fresh air in aw the S&*&e we have thrown at us. Bruce ye have my undying respect Sir, aw the best and a hope ye prosper. SAOR ALBA GU BRATH. 👍👍👍
If Bruce had been killed by de Bohun or the battle had gone the other way, second order consequentials would have set in in time to give us the Declaration of Arbroath and the Treaty of Northampton.
Great video, Bruce. You all obviously had fun making it.
Interesting video, keep up the good work 👍
Brilliant! Love all the details in the details!
I know, right
I remember this great discussion!
I just love these 'what if' videos with Fiona and Martin ... especially when they disagree! 😄 Beside it being hilarious to see the two interact, it's these parts, where there's no consensus, that are most interesting! ❤
The video has been uploaded twice is this a test to see which thumbnail does better. For me funny face and cool painting is the one that won me over.
Nah, I cooked up
@@ScotlandHistoryTours I thought that you were Scottish not Irish! 🤔😉😊
I like this one better because it doesn't show the Scottish flag on fire 😢
Hello Bruce, Thanks for bringing back these two lovely proper Historians. Please say hello two both of them. I enjoy listening to them. But I hate your What If question this time. I agree messed up vid. lol Man I know nothing about Scotland at all. I feel very schooled. I just found out bruce had a brother. Yes I feel silly. Hugs Bruce and Crew!! Yes laugh I so would.
Thanks Bruce learnt some Rugby history, I'm not really a sports fan, as well as listening to an interesting discussion
Bruce, as a future suggestion what if for you to discuss an interesting topic would be, what if James V declined the offer of the English Crown. Would there have still been peace between the two countries? Would Scotland have been drawn into English wars after this? Would Oliver Cromwell have decimated the Scottish Feudal System and caused the Highland Clearances? And later, would Scotland still have invented everything we are famous for, when we were in the British Empire???
Great video again
Thanks again!
Remember Max Bygraves a comedian his catch phrase was " I wanna tel you a story" you do remind me of him, great story teller.
Very good of course, the Battle of Largs is Scotland’s TRUE foundation battle
Scottish foundation battles is actually a good shout for the future. Largs might even feature. That wasn’t what this video was about though
…… but it would make a great What If
Give the other guy a moment love…
hey my school has that statue of Robert the Bruce on its land
Cheers Bruce an interesting piece. The Scottish / English wars can also be be seen as a civil war amongst ruling Norman families, in which too many English and Scottish common men died. The Scottish common man gained nothing except an extra few hundred years of feudalism under their noble families. Luckily the English had magna carta and English common law.
If you think Magna Carta was for the common man I think you may have misunderstood Magna Carta
@@ScotlandHistoryTours It was for the barons, but movement in the right direction. Cheers Bruce point taken.
Bruce, FYI. My people grew out of the soil of Angus and Perthshire and to it most of them returned. To this day there remains a vacant space in that soil, in Alyth, that is waiting to be filled. We will see.
Brilliant video Bruce. Going beyond the basic victory or defeat scenario, anything but a King Robert victory would have had cataclysmic consequences. The number of people who have lived and those still living because of that victory must be in the millions.
Imagine an Edward II victory.
The prisoner swap of the English captured at Bannockburn and the Scottish knights taken at Kildrummy Castle probably wouldn’t take place the way it did. Potential marriages and births all never happening. Robert Stewart doesn’t become king. He doesn’t have 20+ children and 80+ grandchildren. The offspring of his daughters’ and granddaughters’ marriages into the Douglas, Dunbar, Lindsay, Keith, MacDonald and many more families never happening, Every Monarch of Scots, of the Union of the crowns and of the United Kingdom having never been born because of a non Robert I victory.
Absolute nightmare scenario. Even with an Edward Bruce victory it all changes. Now, after saying all that.
Have a great day. 😂
"I was just _pretending_ to be an idiot" I have to remember that excuse.
😜Always in the back pocket
I like the ideas of these videos. I would LOVE to see something similar with writers of historical fiction to see where their creativity takes them. Say Andrew Grieg or James Robertson.
All sorts of different things can happen, but it sounds like once Robert the Bruce had been running things for a while it became near-certain that there would be an independent Scotland (at least culturally distinct), but there remained a great many possible variations in the details of what the true statement "Scotland is a distinct country" actually meant.
Hey, mate! Great vid as always, but are you gonna do anymore tours? Me and my Mrs would love to attend! Gutted we missed the last one in Dundee.
You can see that show one last time in Dunblane in September www.trybooking.com/uk/events/landing/57436?
If the Spanish Armada had successfully landed I think that Elizabeth Tudor would have been just a footnote in history. A spanish Scottish/French Alliance would have been devastating for the Tudors.
The preparation for the Scottish campaign by Edward II was a shambles. His relationship with Piers Gaveston succeeded in pssng off large numbers of some of the best of the English knights who decided that there was some unmissable tele to watch or they had to wash their hair instead of going North with a person they held in the profoundest contempt. Edward had no military skill or detectable leadership qualities and was an arrogant person who succeeded in pssng off many of those who had gone North with him, hence the low morale. The Scots were fortunate that they faced Edward, a leader fundamentally unsuited to the role he had at Bannockburn
What if the Plantagenets had won at Bannockburn, we would all be speaking French. Who are these English that keep getting a mention?
The Plantagenets were already calling themselves English and the infantry was in any case as well.
I've always felt Scottish. That's no Anti English. I just feel Scottish. There is a difference. But i love historical what ifs.
Maybe life for the Scottish after the battle of Culloden could be an indicator of what life would have been like if the British had won at Bannockburn. I believe QE II is also related to the Stuart dynasty.
🤔
I love this channel
Bruce can you do a video on Edward Bruces invasion of Ireland after Bannockburn
I already did one
I've always found the what if's a pointless question and approach in history. What if this, what if that... the point is that the English didn't win... end of! A mute point. A great video all the same. Cheers.
Your last sentence is EXACTLY the point
A'reyt again Bruce. Having just watched Shebahn video on her coverage of Euros, I imagined her popping up after the loss to ask Robert "What did you think of the English chanting that Scotland get battered everywhere they go?"
A'reyt Bruce. "Scotland is my favourite part of England". Been to Berwick again?
"That sound you are hearing is the sound of inevitability" - Agent Smith (The Matrix). .
I'd be totally English. Can't bear the thought of not being Scottish also. Thankfully, Robert the Bruce won Bannockburn.
Hiya Bruce, what football team do you support? in England I support Newcastle, in Scotland I support Kelty Hearts, if English had won the battle of Bannockburn, surely the scots would sing Scotland the Brave, as the national anthem, do you know the students from that area play Rugby Union on the site where the battle of Bannockburn took place, this is Paul (aka Choppy) in Whitehaven, Cumbria, England
I'm from Perth
@@ScotlandHistoryTours You Must be a St Johnstone fan
Obviously
@@ScotlandHistoryTours Hiya Bruce, have you subscribed to Footy Adventures? Sam is from London but lives in Hamilton, Glasgow, most of the time Sam goes to every level leagues of Scottish football
We'd still be fighting Bruce....
If the English had won that battle I might never of been born ,gran lived just down the Glasgow road in st ninians
Bruce and the others would have continued to fight on, perhaps returning to a guerilla war initially as he negotiated with other lords for more support with men, etc, which would initially have been more difficult in the first few years after the failure at Bannockburn but as he won more and more small battles more and make would have agreed to more support. Not sure when or where that battle may have been, perhaps a Bannockburn II. Or maybe a Stirling Bridge II.
Well for starters we would have spelled “the” correctly in the title😂😂😂
CONFORMISTS !
England is my second favourite part of Scotland. England became part of Scotland when King James VI became King of England (James I to those southerners).
James VI ancestors from Shropshire and Brittany, the Scots common men and women were just serfs of another Norman family. All of the Scottish / English wars after 1200 to 1700 are power grabs from Norman noble houses. Regards from a southerner.
Wrong, wrong and wrong again. Wrong factually and wrong emotionally, a sense of nation is in the soul and can't be extinguished.
@@StephenKane-fx3od Nations can be extinguished. The Kingdom of Northumbria for example is long gone, a footnote in the history books. Others are completely forgotten about as if they never existed at all.
@@igorscot4971 Northumbria and the other English kingdoms were forced into a single unitary unit with Danish invasion. Same for Scotland with the Norwegian vikings. Once a Kingdom or more accurately a country is established for centuries not so easy to wipe that collective belonging. Kingdoms and sense of statehood were more fluid in 10th C. 3 Cs after so called UK came into being more Scots still identify as being Scottish rather than British. Figure would be considerably higher if not for reformation. Religion is the main reason UK came into being, well apart from English wanting to control the northern flank threat.
Was the battle of halidon Hill a few decades later not the put right in eyes of the English?
These two "experts" come across as extremely nervous and shifty, reminds me of the interview of the three astronauts who had just come back from the " moon"! 😂 Do these two know something that we dont?😮 The whole Bannockburn thing has sat uneasy with me these past few years. Where are all the thousands of dead bodies buried for a start? Surely if they were buried in the bogs they died in they would mostly have been preserved? Its happened before! There has been numerous archaeology digs and practically nothing has been found as far as Im aware. The logistics too, thousands of men, horses and other animals marching hundreds of miles would have been a huge undertaking in medieval times, and for what? Nah its all a bit too neatly wrapped up and labelled for me. Maybe its just me but as the years roll by Im finding it all a bit to much to swallow 😊 Still love the show though big fella 😊.
The English made a right mess of it. If Edward I had lived to fight this battle, Scottish history would have been very different.
I am Scottish. But if it was Edward the 2nd dad Edward Long shanks. I not shore?
I find the talk of "freedom" confusing. In a battle between kings only a dictator can win. And at Bannockburn both kings were Norman.
...apart from Robert Bruce
@@ScotlandHistoryTours Rab was nothing to do with the Anglo Norman De Brus line then?
@@patrickhumphreys4753 So we started with him being Norman, we've now moved to him having something to do with Anglo Norman. When we get to him being decended from his four times great grandfather Robert de Brus who came from Normandy, on his father's side and a Gael on his mother's side then we'll have reached agreement.
@@ScotlandHistoryTours What was the court lanuage at this time?
@patrickhumphreys4753 We've travelled a distance. Eitheir you know Bruce spoke Gaelic and French and you're wasting both our time, or you're suggesting everyone, was defined by the language of the court, in which case you're wasting both our time. I'm going to finish my coffee, then off to make better use of mine. All the best
Not really worried about what might in history happen and what might have happened is anyone guess. And you put a room of experts together and you get different answers 😂
...and an enlightening discussion that improves understanding
Ummmm, it may be a bit too late to re-envision the Battle of Bannockburn!
...but never too late to get a deeper understanding from two well informed, engageing historians
🤠 💜
If we play them at footy, I’ll take 3-0 at half time 👀
What if? The greatest question of all time.
You would be in the same situation as now.
I heard they fought like warriors poets.. English never stood a chance
😅😅😅😂
Blasphemy to even think about if Bruce lost.
😂
I dont do ifs.....we handed them two kickings,no other countrys beat England in open battle,twice,joan of arc beat them too.
Scotland has handed England,, five or six ,,kickings,, however to use your parlance, England has smashed the granny out of Scotland on 30+ occasions
1776 & 1812?
@@Roberta-q1q 1812,? You start a war , your capital gets taken, the white house burned,, and you think you won😃
@@waynenash6008 We still have no king, unless the orange arsehole finds his way to power again!
My comment didn't post when I said (differently) that an orange menace is the threat to our lack of monarchy.
What would have happened if there were actual Royal (Celtic) Scots fighting for their independence instead of Norman French people like De Bruce (I notice Scots always conveniently forget the 'De' bit) leading the real Scots clansmen against against the Norman English descendants?
The Celts came from Ireland so they were foreign too. The Picts were the original home team.
We as Scot’s are descendants of the Irish from the high kings ?
@@keithallen2574 I'm sure the original population didn't stop pumping. The populations would have just mixed.
What a joke
Bruce, how about a lesson on the greatest scotsman who ever lived and the only non Russian to have a street named after him in Russia, the great John Maclean? ✊🏴
Yes, good call, but the only non-Russian to have a street named after him in Russia? Hogwash. Just off the top of my head, there’s Garibaldi Street in Moscow, a LOT of Karl Marx Streets, Indira Ghandi Square……give me some time on Wikipedia and I could go on. By the way, Maclean Street in St Petersburg is now called English Street. The horror. See this is why we need our own ambassadors.