DMMS and Vref - Ride Along on This!
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2024
- This is the second in a series of AQP ride along videos. This one illustrates DMMS and Vref, and some common mis conceptions about using this gentle reminder to stay in the envelope.
Over the last 20 years, more than 80% of all GA fatal accidents in the USA have occurred in day VFR conditions. Of the 80%, most of those were simple loss of speed awareness accidents in one way or another. An airplane can be stalled at any airspeed, but below 1000 AGL there is no recovery. PREVENTION is all we have. Prevention is NO ACCIDENT!
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I counted three. Attitude indicator was not set even though it said that it was complete, trim was not set and seatbelts and harnesses were not checked.
Run up and run up checklist already done and complete prior to Before Takeoff Checklist. Attitude indicator was fine, trim was set prior. Seatbelt was on.
You obviously missed his comments about the checklists he already completed which included those items. Some people are real quick to jump on Dan for any reason while ignoring what was said, typical. I'd fly with Dan anytime, you on the hand being a poor listener, I don't think so.
He set the DG on the runway and then also went full rich. He probably leaned out for taxi before takeoff then realized both mixture and his DG wasn't set when rolling out on runway heading.
@@tedhughes5187EDIT: I forgot this plane has no toe brakes. I see nothing wrong with setting DG when on runway, as that serves as final correction, if any is needed. Mixture full-forward upon advancing throttles is also something some pilots do, especially if turbo-charged, i.e., rich mixture just before full power, then your palm braces and holds all the levers (Power, props, mixture) full-forward. My .02 cents.
@podtri419 DG was definitely missed as that was well over a 40-degree correction.
I agree with many of your viewers, keep up the good work Dan, remember - it’s the haters that have the problem not you and thank you for all your efforts
DMMS and VREF user here. As a maintainer, I'd like to add that anytime you place a line or radial on an instrument, you should PAINT a small slippage mark from your glass to the bezel of the instrument. This is assurance that the glass has not slipped and rotated, changing your marks which could have disastrous results.
😮 That never occurred to me!! Thanks! (I hope a line of nail polish will do) 😁
Is placarding the speeds a better option?
Excellent observation and suggestion!
No.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder Why?
Regarding radio communication, you seem to have set a tone for safety and etiquette at that airport. Kudos!
Newly minted private pilot here, just about to start working on instrument in November. Thanks for making this video Dan! I’m just calculated my Vref and DMMS and will be following your advice as I build hours. Thanks again man!
I'd like to firstly congratulate your accomplishment and applaud your intention to do instruments, it's not really something you want to put off. VFR into IMC happens all too often.
Congratulations @grantbrown7594! Keep staying alive! 😊
Keep the GREAT videos coming! I don't recall you calling FINAL on the CTAF in the first landing.
How does the guy accuse you of spreading unsafe information when your whole point is safety? I imagine that there are a lot of people out there who could afford an airplane that shouldn't necessarily be flying them. I will never forget my first solo. You don't try to make it 'look' easy, and you had 'handsfull' doing 2 laps, flying the airplane, navigating and COMMUNICATING. Keep up your great work, and rescue more dogs. They ALL go to heaven.
All ex pros know how good Dan is. As for DMS, it’s important to know but not appropriate to use for thrills especially if you play fast and loose with your AoA
There are a lot of people who pilot airplanes. Some look better than others doing it. 🥸
Dan, although you are a polarizing figure because of your “enthusiasm” for improving GA safety, I have no doubt you have helped save many, many lives.
Telling the truth isnt polarizing Saying the truth is polarizing is polarizing
If you ain't yanking someone's chain, if hateful, jealous people don't ridicule, if they don't shoot their barbs at you.....well, you aren't making people think and consider thier ways
Dan Love your flight in 140 around pattern only thing no shoulder harness? Ernie Abderson
Awesome, no fluff just straight talk great information
I agree I keep on making my own checklists with all my aircraft.
Thank you sir, was absolutely excellent, including review on DMMS to radio coms, really awesome, on the yellow line, thrilling and informative...better than some commercial pilot teaching series!
“I like to fly anyway . . . “ love it Dan - me too! 😂
Thank you, Dan, your videos on DMMS shed a bright beam of light on the matter, which pilots call the feeling in the seat of our pants. I calculated the DMMS for my airplane and went to practice it today. It helps tremendously with airspeed control in the pattern. I also learned that my DMMS is also a Vy. But it is not the best glide speed. Having this speed marked also helps in IMC to keep the airplane under control. I used Vref ever since I started flying my Mooney. That was a huge help in my transition to the Mooney flying machine. Makes so much easier to land it!
I really enjoyed this, and I am only a spectator. Thank you, Dan. You make me feel like I am riding with you!!
Dan, I would just say not everybody's all there. Keep up your good work.
Dan, everything you do makes sense to me and promotes safety. Keep up the great work.
Great lessons, I like your camera holder in the back!
This DMMS and Vref is not new.
Since I started flying age 12 in the mid 1960's and my CFI was a prior WW2 military training instructor.
Several things Dan teaches is how old skool flying was all about.
Marking Airspeed indicators with red or yellow paint for absolute minimums.
Also, we were trained to land straight ahead nose down best speed.
And , lots of training for engine failure.
Both of my WW2 instructors would kill the engine. That means deadstick off. I was trained to immediately push yoke forward.
Immediately recognise wind direction and land. No matter the terrain.
One last one.
Practice of Falling Leaf to loose altitude quickly - and land. Plus side slips into trees to absorb impact during emergency.
And never, ever try a 180 back to field.
I very much doubt the skills of any modern day CFI. Most of them are trained poorly.
Ah, another disciple of Wolfgang :)
Amen!
I've never heard of side slipping into trees.. interesting thought.
totally spot on. You can even see on the old piper how much the dial shakes on climb on this old bird. The guy trying to tell Dan he's going to kill someone has never experienced a pitot tube blockage which happened on my 3rd flying lesson when I was 12; back in 1999 in England in a 1950s C152 Aerobat. It wasn't scary as I had an instructor and he'd flown the bird enough to not panic, although at the time he didn't know if the stall horn might be blocked too, as we went round for a thorough pre flight check. A tiny bit of gravel perfectly sized got kicked up on takeoff and there's another reason why Dan isn't killing anybody.
@@asho1735 Accordion effect absorbing energy rather the nose first.
It's good to see a busy airport these days!
Check seatbelts (plus: where is the shoulder harness???) 😉
Nice job Dan. The community needs more people like you, less interested in the profit and agendas, and more interested in helping people stay alive. Keep up the good work.
Good afternoon Dan from windy Inverness, Scotland. Not a good day for flying here. Thank you for this series.
EGFH is a nightmare also. 🏴
Any and every day is a good day for flying.
Great Job Dan!
Thanks
Dan, your Videography is approaching Aviation 101 Josh Flowers quality. The A&P in me likes the nice smooth application of the throttle. You can always throw it forward in a fast motion in an emergency.
Not with a small Continental!
Here's one for you to run Dylan through... You're extending your downwind to allow those two planes to depart but you're still at TPA and getting farther and farther from the field. A perfect spot for a sim engine failure! Turn and glide for the field or glide for whatever is in front of you? How does he factor in the wind and ground speed?
One thing on comms... please try to remember to say airport before and after transmission. There are usually several airports on the same CTAF within radio reception.
I caught the mistake. Fiddling with the camera mid-flight! 🤣🤷🏼♂️
I believe you have Blu-Tack in the USA? Sure would have been more effective than being distracted by the camera sliding off the dash. How important is that one camera? I heard him say he put away his phone and his paper check-lists, but "all objects secured" probably should be on that list as well. I had to virtually lay on the floor from the right hand seat to retrieve a water bottle, which was left free standing between the front seats....guess what happened on decent? Fortunately the decision was made to go around, thus climbing removed the offending article from the left hand seat area, and the bottle was secured before rejoining the pattern. My point is, either way it's a loose object in the cockpit that has potential to cause disruption, distraction and could potentially impact controlling the aircraft.
Hi Dan, I never heard you announce that you were on final? Is that what you were referring to that you missed?
Take a look over your shoulder for some Norad blasting in on the 45* to downwind. Dan love these fly along videos, helps us rusty pilots a bit with keeping our heads in the game. Maybe you could occasionally rehash the method you use to determine your plane's DMMS and Vref, as some may not have caught this on earlier videos. Oh, and ignore the haters! These videos will save someone's life, if they haven't already.
DG not set but corrected on the roll. i've done that a few times and even took off with a totally wrong heading indication.. i guess it's not an instant killer in VFR weather
I like you added “I’m not gonna stall this airplane” to the checklist.
I believe he mentioned in an earlier show that his shoulder harness system was on back order or delayed and that he would have them installed as soon as they arrive.
Thanks for mentioning that a “Checklist” and a “Do-List” are different things. A real Checklist should be somewhat retrospective, that is, its purpose is to CONFIRM the correct status of items that are not directly controlled by the pilot (e.g. oil pressure) and VERIFY that required pilot action items from the Do-List (e.g. setting flaps) did get, in fact, get (and stay) done.
We have custom checklists for our club planes. After listening to you describe the "successful" stall/crash landing of two ladies into treetops and falling gently enough to the ground to prevent the ELT from going off, we're thinking about adding a pre-crash item of manually activating the ELT.
You reported clear of runway before crossing hold short line. Technically all parts of plane should be pass that point before reporting clear. Nitpick, nitpick no harm no foul. I believe that it is efficient to do so if plane is still in motion in certainty to clear in anticipation.
It's a solid point, i think the extra few seconds to cross wouldn't hurt the jet to wait, considering he was offered the opportunity twice. But checklists rushed breeds complacency, so please take all the time you need mr jet pilot, I'll wait!
All is good, you left the banjo at home. You are right, speed is life!
And height…life assurance. 👍🏴
My wife is learning to learn to fly…I’m sending her every one of these to hopefully keep her around a LONG time.
Stay away from young and enthusiastic CFI. Find a real Veteran. Not a starving time builder.
@@michaelpilot1000nice generalization, Michael. I’ve had bad experiences with both. I’ve had good experiences with both. Find the safest CFI.
Fantastic vid, very informative - thank you!
Seat belt/shoulder harness . seat locked.. Dan you need one of those tacky pads for the dash to keep that cube cam in place.
I learned to fly in ‘63 and stalling in the circuit was unheard of way back when………and we had massive traffic on fewer runway options. You had to try hard to stall because you had so much feedback.
Bloody excellent vid Dan. 👍🏻🇬🇧😎
Nice edit of the cockpit view and the instrument view overlaying eachother👌
Well I haven't been are sick in a long time. Watching this on a big screen TV it's like the real thing
Get those shoulder belts in... and do a bit when you do them, FAA has relaxed the regulations for just these safety items🤪
Excellent video!
@_-Dan-Gryder- Surprise?
Good day DG. Where can I get the camera mount you used? I LMBO'd at your camera stuffed in the oh shit handle in the back. Brilliant!
haters gonna hate sir. thank you for saving lives
Hey Dan, beautiful airplane I saw at speedway.. love the animal rescue on the side.. reminds me of Jurassic Park. You never fly with iPad? Do you rely on old school visual contact for VFR stuff if you're buzzing around the airport?
P.S. trade you a few rides in a beautiful SR22 for a ride in the DC-3 :)
@@lukebelvin4900OK! I’d love a ride in a DC-3, I’ll bring my Cirrus and give you a ride in that first. Deal!
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder haha woops.. my brain farted after a long work day, you know what I mean! :D
A *few* rides in my SR22 for a chance to ride along the DC-3 one of these days?
I enjoyed this video. I think not flying without a shoulder harness should be on the AQP checklist. Lots of old planes just have a lap belt. I won’t fly in a plane without at least a 3 point harness.
Dan- please correct if I’m wrong, but I saw a video of your son who appears to have a plane with only a lap belt. If I got that wrong, please accept my apologies.
His plane has been modified with a full should harness kit from Alpha Aviation and the STC kit has been installed. The actual belts are on back order and due in any day.
Good news. As u are aware there are many tragic accidents where the occupants survived the landing but a killed by impact with the instrument panel. Including one where the pilot ditched in the water beautifully but was knocked unconscious and drowned!!!
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder Glad to hear your getting them done.
I really like what you are trying to do for GA pilots. I got my comm. and CFI in the early '70s as a hobby. When I look back I'm amazed I was qualified to teach as I knew nothing compared to today. Only did it for a couple of years as my biz was busy.
Re the missing item, I didnt hear carb heat being tested. Very useful and helpful video Dan
GOOD STUFF" KEEP IT ROCKIN!
I watched the flight chops video again tonight. That's an amazing 25 minutes worth watching. When you flew DMMS engine failure and turned right or left 30 degrees in this video, that's what made it click for me what this was all about. It was all words and talk before seeing you cut the engine, hit DMMS and actually TURN after engine out. I've NEVER practiced a 30 degree turn after stalls at altitude. Ever. That slight turn did more to reinforce DMMS than a simple stall recovery or airspeed exercise. Why the hell did we train for stalls and not this? That's so frustrating.
Exactly.
Thank you for these, Dan! :D
This gentleman is just a fabulous pilot. One of the best I've ever seen.
Dan, another excellent video.
great work Dan, keep it up
*Thanks Dan* for another Great Brain Feast on Flying. item[s] 'missing': Seeing Plane on horizon, i looked, but realized each time it was spot on windshield. lol the other, *Thanks again Dylan!* _and plane, for the use._
Isn't this what *Pete,* (Juan's Son) says: *'Aviate, Navigate, Communicate'*
Lt Pete. 🇺🇸👍
DMMS = Vy and you're always good; no extra numbers to remember
Cessna 182 Club
Well done my friend.
Great stuff!
A possible "Impossible Turn" at the Grand Canyon area that resulted in the loss of three.
can you link?
dang it, Dan! you make me miss flying! just banging around, boring holes in the sky. Great vid, and great practical workthru of the methods you advocate. Happy Landings :)
You should say the airfields name at the beginning and again at the end (as anyone else there by the way) Sorry! 😉
🎉great video I liked the overlay to see DMS airspeed..so when are you going to disclose the error and do we win a prize for correctly identifying..lol😅
You can decide if skipping an item is critical or not, for that you win at life 😊
I didn't hear Density Altitude call out. Excellent video, thanks.
It’s in there.
Baro altitude and DG. Also didnt call out first final, and omitted airport name in most transmissions. Still a better pattern than ive ever flown thiugh😂
I saw what you did on taking off. That happened to me once, coming out of RDU at night. Departure was vectoring me out of the area and of course my DG was not aligned with my compass. That was embarrassing to say the least. Never missed that again after getting disciplined on the radio. I was distracted with taxiing to the runway, at the unfamiliar airport and rushed the take off. Lesson from that incident, is to taxi or fly the plane and do not let controllers or other aircraft rush you for their convenience.
DMMS is a safety margin. There's nothing wrong with flying the pattern at a constant DMMS. You SHOULD learn, and practice flight at the slower speeds, but there is no reason to maneuver in the pattern at a speed that is any slower than DMMS.
A lot of airlines use DMMS, I'm a huge supporter of it as well.
@@borntobbad Nah, Levy knows more than the airlines. In his mind...... What a tool.
@truthserum5310 well it is what it is, i follow Dan because i enjoy his work, it's educational and i learn so much from the experience he has. This is DTSB Probable Cause, not Levy's 👍I always like to keep an open mind.
For your history only. I was going to Anaheim a lot back in the day. After an 18 yeat accident free record, Golden West Airline commuter service out of LAX crashed two helicopters back-to-back killing everyone onboard. So they switched to using only Twin Otters. Then two of those things crashed back-to-back again killing everyone onboard. Last time I checked there was still no public commuter service in the L.A. area. Now you know why. For me, the all dark blue commuter helicopters went to the Disneyland Hotel parking lot, and then the Twin Otters were later going in and out of Fullerton. I flew out of Fullerton one time as the only passenger onboard. Finally, we too as an Indiana business stopped using Golden West as well because of what happened. We owned Delco Battery in Anaheim and I was "the plastics guy".
Dan, I fly a light sport CTLS from flight design. The POH only lists Vs0 for a 35 degree flap setting, which is never used because of extreme deck angles required. It lists V1 for 0 degrees flap setting but not for the normally used 15 degree. In addition, there is only 3 kts difference between the two. As said, I'm never going to fly base and final with 35 degrees, usually 15 degrees. Therefore if I calculate DMMS with a prorated value of 41 Knots, I get 58. POH Approach speed is listed as 54. What would you recommend?
No jerking on the controls just smooth flying!
I propose a new number: DMPI - Defined Minimum Pilot Intelligence.
If a Pilot is so adverse to self / cross examination and open discussion of flight characteristics, then quite possibly, they should not be flying.
Agree, suggest a Karen’s checklist
👏👏👏
That was a great armchair ride with you, Dan. Pretty soon I'll have this armchair in the air! At DMMS no less. 😊
DMMS is the way to go
Love these instructive videos, Dan. I am a bit sad than at 82 it is unlikely that I'll pilot a plane again - even though I feel confident that I could do so just fine!
At 83 I feel the same but I won't without a copilot.
Come fly with me!
Fact is, I might just figure out a way to do that, Dan! Maybe I could tell you how amazingly sweet it was to fly from Goose Bay to Mildenhall using only 3 star fixes until TACAN lock on!
82 is the new 72, get up there and fly man!!!!
Do it, I'd take Dan up on that offer. 82 is young son. Hell, Bob Hoover was flying into his 90's.
Awesome!! Jo said you called clear of the runway before you got to the whole short line. Also, trim, setting an alter setting was missed what happened to the run-up? Ha. She is picky
yes.. AIM has this but it's not a regulation? An aircraft exiting a runway is not clear of the runway until all parts of the aircraft have crossed the applicable holding position marking.
Rob Levy is an aviation Karen. We all get told to stay above Vso anyways. We're just adding a margin.
Yes agree, shame we can’t mouth ball these Karen’s
If he believes it was unsafe, there's a right way to go about it and a wrong way to go about it. Guess which one he uses?
I like the CIGARS checklist! ERAU 80 CFIA&I ret.
Staying Alive!
Take all the time you need on your check-lists, a rushed check-list breeds complacency. Complacency is the best way to meet your maker 100% guaranteed to work!
Is "clear of the runway" normal parlance at an uncontrolled airport? I thought after the Tenerife runway collision in 1977 that "clear" was verboten unless referring to a clearance from ATC. Just asking.
Good stuff.
DMMS user. not only, i built my own electronic ASI with a bar of leds, indicating the correct speeds for pattern and final. my a/c has a very small wing, relativery high Vs and a very unpleasant stall so airspeed in pattern is critical. lots or bright red lights when speed is too low.
Still find those to-do lists a bit too long. I dont use paper, but i built my own panel and controls so lists are mostly redundant.
Items to check before t/o for me are basically just 3: flaps, trim and canopy, the only things that can ruin my day. the rest is nice but not critical.
one thing i rarely see discussed and eventually questioned is the square pattern with 4 90 degs turns.
with light airplanes, often plagued by strong inverse yaw, maybe not very coordinated, and with little energy, i saw many accidents in pattern not caused by bad speed management (or not only) but by a sequence of event started by a overshot final turn.
when possible i do a 150 or so wide base turn, finish to configure the a/c and then do a final turn of 30 degs or so.
DMMS should be adopted by all GA flyers. unfortunately too many people come up with the silly argument that airplanes can stall at any speed.
I like very much the music in the introduction,sounds mean.
You have the older type of transponder, I did not see you set the transponder to Alt however, it may have already been in that setting before taking the runway and I couldn't quite tell from my view. If you have an ADSB solution such as a Sky Beacon you may run with the transponder in Alt all of the time.
Dear Rob,
Did you know that a high indicated airspeed almost always means low AoA? You can obviously exceed critical AoA and break the airflow even at Vno by abrupt and sharp control inputs. However, anyone who flies a Cherokee like a fighter jet doesn‘t belong behind any flight controls.
Keep going Dan!
Yeah. And at a certain point one will have to worry about structural failure more than stalling
Dan I still believe that the spin of the multi crash in Portland was intentional and purposeful… didn’t have to happen
Like suicide?
VMC practice?
@@ProbableCause-DanGrydermore like I think the instructor was trying to “show off” they were all super young… wouldn’t surprise me if they took Vmc to the full stall.. basically what I’m saying is you get what you pay for.. stall an aircraft at Vmc… you’ll get the Vmc roll… totally intentional
@@clearance_delivery One lived hopefully they are able to get some good information from the person who survived. God only knows how that happened.
I argued with Rob Levy for two days about stalling aircraft… He’s not a reasonable person
It is amazing.
It seems reasonable he believes he was right?
Stall is a factor of wing angle of attack. Generally near 17 degrees angle of attack stall will initiate. If you are self limiting to 10 deg pitch vs horizon and 30 deg bank angle, you are extremely unlikely to exceed critical angle of attack. in you V-Ref to DMMS speed range.
So, within the parameters for traffic pattern, your advice is exactly the way everyone should be flying.
correct, you are spot on
If you’re stalling a Cherokee at 200 knots, it’s because you ripped the winds off lol..
Hard to tell from the video but is it that the left tank is the fullest tank?
Good circuit chatter, everyone. Conversations are much more effective than announcements.
I take it DMMS is different from plain old maneuvering speed, which you use in choppy air. If so, might that not confuse someone? Other than that, great concept.
I think you missed, or at least didn't call out, carb heat when turning final that last time.
Va is a max. DMMS is a min.
Get yourself a modern Carbon Monoxide (CO) detector, rather than the "spot check" you have on the panel. They cost about $20-$30 and have a 10-year lifetime battery. Cheap insurance.
I'd like to point out that Dan doesn't have to film all these videos, he does it because he wants to and he understands the importance of sharing experience, and for this i am very grateful thanks Dan. I guess it goes without saying, but not everyone will agree with some things that are said and that's ok as well, but if you need to point something out that you think is unsafe, do it in the proper manner. Dan in my opinion is a gentleman aviator, showing us it's ok to offer the other pilots the opportunity to go first while simply extending,...as he said they are burning kero and he's just practising what he talks about.
Good job
I believe it was fuel that was missed on 1st landing.
Additional comment - please get some shoulder harnesses, Dan! It would be tragic to lose you or Dylan due to a head bang on an otherwise survivable crash. Take care!
I thought you installed shoulder harnesses?
These speeds seem slower than what I’m use to from training normally we use 90 on downwind 80 on base and 65-70 on final, were people flying speeds much slower then even dmms and vref ? If so that’s pretty worrying