Toyota got tired of the boxers blowing up. They knew in terms of reliability that Subaru isn’t getting any better any time soon, even with their help. Why use their engines to destroy their image? Another nail in the coffin for Subaru. If Subaru doesn’t fix their engine problems, I don’t see them being in business in the next 15 years.
@@faheemabbas3965probably won’t matter because when has it ever deterred subie fans? I feel like they almost wear their blown head gaskets as a badge. Crosstreks and outbacks are still EVERYWHERE. I won’t be complaining that toyota is moving on though
@@Brian_Eugene_Lee To be fair, the B48 and B58 are actually reliable. Expensive to fix, sure, but reliable. The same cannot be said for Subaru's engine.
wow 50k to have silicone in your engine...just buy a Japanese built Miata for cheaper 🤣 (maybe 86 is Japanese built too, I can't remember....but it still isn't on par quality wise with the Miata)
I paid $29k for my BRZ and can accept some trade offs in terms of interior, ride quality, etc. I wanted a simple, normally aspirated sports car. Bouncing it to $40k and adding a turbo or electric assist will appeal to the stat bois, but will it make it a better sports car? That being said I wish Subaru would own up to the oiling issues.
Having the ability to still kick the back end out a bit, while wearing bigger stickier tries...Yes that would be a much better sports car. Especially taking the Subaru engine issues out of the equation, and putting in a far more reliable & tuner friendly option from the start.
Funny thing is, that rumoured 1.4L 3cyl Turbo engine technically already running inside a GR86. It's a de-stroked G16E engine and used for race use by Rookie Racing (Akio Toyoda's personal race team) in Super Taikyu (Japan's Premier Endurance Racing).
This screams its intention. Destroking likely allows the 1.4 to rev higher, and I bet that thing more than compensates for the higher CG with overall less weight.
@@KirkKreifels I really don't think the hybrid part will be there for the next gen like those rumour said, but the G16E part? I can actually get that since it's their latest performance engine that can keep the car's light weight characteristics intact. Plus they have to recoup the engine R&D cost from somewhere
they should give option for the hybrid to replace the 4th piston in when the power output happens, so sound and power are linearly correlated instead of sound coming on when battery power is stoped. for emissions testing and as a option , it can run a more effiency focused way
People in media / UA-camrs are making the price situation worse - there's really no reason for the price to jump so much because of that engine - it doesn't cost them (much) more for that engine to make. It's purely that we keep setting an expectation that every time a new model comes out we think if it has more power that it should cost more. They know we expect it and so can get away with it. The BRZ in Australia was 6-7k cheaper on release than the GR86... because Toyota thinks it's 'priced well based on the market'... That's just pure greed.
That's not the main issue. The issue is that this new engine does NOT hold up when driven hard. Many... WAY too many people who are very experienced track car owners have blown up these engines. Oil pan baffle, oil cooler, new fluids, boom. If thats not enought, the new GR cup car also uses this engine in its stock form. They have already been seeing major failures. These are professional race teams that can't get this engine to hold. As someone who bought a GR86, I'm extremely frustrated bc I was certain my car would spend a ton of its time on the track... now it can never even see the track bc I cannot afford a new engine
@@doorey2well actually if you just make left turns you should mostly be fine lol. The testing I’ve seen shows a drop in oil pressure only on right handed turns. So I’m sure eventually there will be some decent well baffled oil pans to compensate for this. Or you could always go dry sump if you want to track it. They’re expensive but they would definitely remedy the oil starvation problem. Still I wouldn’t track a stock FA24 BRZ/GR86. There’s a very good chance that it will pop the engine if you do anything close to an actual hard lap. What’s great about this news if it’s true that the 3 Cylinder turbo will make it into the next GR86 I will be extremely happy. As this current G16 is really taking a beating in the aftermarket and seems to be more than capable of handling it. I would love to see a G14 variant that’s capable of revving higher and has a much more free revving and top end happy turbo engine. Those power bands are very fun and since they don’t have a big heavy engine up front it will still have amazing balance.
@@roochiecoochI believe they also lose oil pressure uphill. Not as severe at hard, right cornering. Even if you don’t track them, it’s still likely to have long term internal damage. The verdict is still out, but I wouldn’t gamble on it. I wish the best of luck to all BRZ/GR86 owners, daily or track driven.
The turbo three is probably the next engine for the GR86 since there are test vehicles running that engine now. The price will probably be closer to $40k like you said and that would leave the upcoming MR2 as the more affordable option. $30k-$37k MR2 $37k-$42k GR86 $42k-$50k GR Corolla $50k-$65k GR Supra
3 cylinder engines are garbage. Very weak and very rough. Even most motorcycles are 4 cylinder. Turbo and electrification will guarantee reliability issues and shorter lifespan and more weight and higher costs. All this is great for Toyota's profits but terrible for people wanting a good raw affordable sports car!
Because nobody wants to pay a mark up for a “track car” that’s really just slow and has limited tuning potential. Let’s face it today if you don’t have a car worth roll racing or drag racing no body cares if you can turn when other option crap on it in that category. Basically it’s a normal car that’s sporty that’s it. Nobody respects anything that’s not 300hp or more today. Displacement ain’t an excuse when boost exist it’s just pure laziness that nobody has time for Sorry. This is why you don’t see them. This car is for the high schooler.
No inventory in my area, however there are plenty of used ones of the last gen model. But because the kids love them, many of them have crash history/rebuilt status and insurance is expensive
Hope you don't track it, until you get some baffles or wait for a fix from Toyota/Subaru, because if you haven't heard the GR86 suffers some REALLY bad oil starvation when making hard right hand turns to the point where the oil pressure will drop to 28 PSI at 6600 RPM WHICH IS STUPID LOW.
I have 42k miles on the dash still running smoothly on my gr86 I think the engine problems come with the manual I'm afraid to admit I got an automatic but I never had any oil problems
@@POPOLAMEYT The oiling issue has nothing to do with the transmission. This effects both auto's and manual because of how the oil pump is designed. Go search on youtube "BRZ/GR86 FA24 Oil Pressure Loss Demonstration" and watch the video from 900BRZ demonstrate how this has nothing to do with the transmission. It's the fact that there is barely any oil pressure making hard right hand corners because of the way the oil pan and the oil pump is designed.
It’s an amazing car with a good boxer engine, but Toyota is more than capable, they have the finances for it, Toyota by themselves have made legendary cars (LFA Supra AE86 MR2 even the second to last gen Celica) the boxer motor is garbage after 80k miles with head gaskets and block cracking being 2 of the main issues with the BRZ and the 86 FR-S whatever. Toyota needs to put a decent 4 cylinder or even a straight 6 if it would fit for the 3rd gen, keep hybrid and electrification out of the sports cars.
“It’s an amazing car with a good boxer engine……the boxer motor is garbage after 80k…” What? I’m no Subaru expert but I think the EJ motors had head gasket issues and has since been resolved since 2012. The engines are very finicky. Someone buys an STI or WRX and slaps a cold air intake or even a silly little blow off valve and that confuses the crap out of the ecu. Not to mention the crazy tunes ppl put on them. A lot of people mod the crap out of them and drive them like they stole it, don’t check the oil, don’t maintain it. As a first gen, FA20 owner, with 155k miles, it still runs great. Maybe I got lucky? I was never a fan of the boxer due to the stories behind them and some maintenance is a bit tricky, but it’s a great chassis and down right fun car to own. That being said, I’m excited for something Toyota under the hood.
@@stevef3521 you must’ve gotten lucky who someone really took care of that Subaru before you, but my friend who was on top of maintenance working at a Toyota dealership, his engine blew at 87k head gasket blown it was a 2015 FR-S. So he made the call and swapped it out for a 1JZ fat turbo hasn’t had any issues since.
The boxer motor has rtv issues and oil starvation on hard right up turns. There’s a pretty scientific video floating around on it. Toyota could easily dev a 250 hp I4 motor
I have reason to believe they were planning on using a version of the 2ar fe if the deal with subaru didn't go through. The power would have been similar in the 1st gen, but they obviously wanted a lower center of gravity from the boxer.
@@Treaxvour in my opinion I don’t think the lower center of gravity is worth more then the reliability of a I4 motor. Miata’s seem to do fine with them for example. A hybrid could work but more R&D would drive up costs on this “affordable roadster. Battery pack would lower center of gravity too.
Idk man, this is a slippery slope that Toyota is walking. So many sports cars have been killed off by getting more and more expensive, pricing themselves out of existence. The only thing that might be cool is if Toyota had a gr 86 that was around 40k and Subaru kept selling a brz similar to the one we have now.
I saw one guy in the FT86 reddit who posted a sales ad from his country, they were asking the equivalent of 110k USD for a base first gen 86. Turns out the lira is a really bad currency to try to buy things with, especially if what you're buying was not made in your country. But I take your point, the EU countries are all competing to outdo each other on consumption, fuel and pollution taxes. Makes for a not very healthy enthusiast crowd, when you have to be a rich SOB to even afford an entry level sports car.
I keep hearing buzz about Toyota resurrecting the Celica. But I don’t see how Toyota has room in their line up for BOTH a Celica and a GR86. So something is definitely afoot.
That's IF it gets a worldwide release. Ugly rumors going around that it won't be for sale in US or EU, leaving just the Aussies and Japan. I'd love to buy one, but I'm not going to wait 25 years to import one as a classic.
What do you expect? people keep complaining of lack of power, not premium enough, and now Toyota is going to address all of those concerns, and the result is a more powerful and premium vehicle with a higher price tag. So now we complain about higher price? Nothing is for free, more of everything means more money simple as that.
You are a legend. Went to Toyota to negotiate pricing and the info about manufacturing increases helped trying to negotiate down an 86 price. They still kept a minor markup (didn’t purchase). Nonetheless, this is amazing for the toolbox when shopping.
Kirk, Your video leads to the fundamental question as to why Subaru continues to design, engineer and build their own powertrains so many years after Toyota bought such a big chunk of the company. 🤔I don't know if Toyota will build an affordable RWD sports coupe all by themselves but a GR Corolla Touring Sports with the European wheelbase would go a long way to covering all sporting requirements.🤩😁
@@izzy031096 that was one one of my biggest detractors from the current 86 models. They just don’t scream and rev as happily as engines in the past. I wouldn’t mind an NA 2.0 designed specifically with High revving in mind. With today’s tech I can’t imagine it would be hard to make it meet emissions standards.
@@izzy031096 thing I never understood was why didn’t Toyota just make the 2ZZGE RWD like they did for the 3SGE. The work for the engine was already done. They could’ve added D4S and Dual VVTLI. After all the 2ZZGE was the first 4 cyl to incorporate cam lift and VVT. The 2ZZGE was the perfect choice for the FRS/86/BRZ, yet Toyota went with FA20 instead just cuz of it low center of gravity which when you consider that engines issues doesn’t seem like it was worth it
@@10cent_not50 It's not as tuner friendly as a "normal" inline 4 when it comes to boosting. these boxers are a bit delicate when you add forced induction ;-)
For me, this is hard me to believe these rumors as R and D and investsment on a new platform takes more than 5 years. The first gen stuck around for almost 10 years and we have been hearing these rumors since the speculation of a the second gen. But as a FR-S and now an AE86 owner, I love to see a proper Toyota Engine with tuned Yamaha sounds. You can't buy these smiles.
Preach. I don’t personally own one of the twins but have driven a frs. As someone who owns a Celica with the 2ZZGE, the FRS/BRZ/86 platform would’ve been perfect for maybe 2.0 version of that engine. Can’t beat that Yamaha sound
@@vinnycent007 you bet. Was really surprised when I found out Toyota didn’t go to Yamaha their long time engine building partner to make new iconic engine for the twins
Awesome news and I hope it actually happens. The reliability of the 86 platform has always been shotty with subaru's boxer engine (whether you like it or not). I love the current generation 86, however, more and more customers are experiencing terminal engine failures and its pushing people like me away from buying the car. Let's hope and see what Toyota can do with this car in the future!
There are fa20s at 350k miles and many more above 200k not what I would consider unreliable, just an owner problem. But don't get me wrong a Toyota engine would be awesome.
The 4-cylinder Supra doesn't sell at all. Maybe they want a turbo 86 to fill that slot, especially if a new MR2 end up priced close to the Toyobaru model.
@@jimiverson3085 Yeah, the BMW inline 6 is a pretty sweet engine. The BMW 4cyl turbo might as well be in VW's. ;( Of course the VW 5cyl turbo > BMW inline 6
No way the GR hybrid engine will make this thing cheap and if they do it, it's FINISHED. welcome the new $60k Prius Drift edition. curb weight 3300lbs. rubber-bandy like the GR 3 cylinder with 9 years of rev hang and a rebuild required at 80,000 miles. but might get 40mpg IF you go 0-60 in 3 minutes. no thanks.
Ive never driven the 86 or BRZ. I hear they are great track cars. They have their fanboys. I love the idea of a basic bare bones "sports car" which these two are classic examples of just that.
I'm no Subaru fan, but my only hope is that new gen will use the current platform, as of Toyota what first comes to mind is a FWD 86 with an econobox engine, i wouldn't even be surprised if they do that.
I dont think thr price increase would be too crazy of they actually bring the MR2 to market. They wont have any gaps with the rumored price range of it
Makes me wonder why Toyota is thinking of getting rid of the Subaru partnership. There are plenty of stories out there with the new GR86 engine blowing up due to oil starvation, and story after story of Toyota dealers not honoring their warranty with the owners of this car. So makes me wonder if Toyota is planning on doing this because they don’t want to continue using Subaru’s engine, that keeps failing. Maybe they have plans to make it all their own, problem free…
tried to order a gr86 at Toyota here in Japan like 2 months ago, they told me they've stopped taking orders because they are planning to something new. couldn't tell me any more. Subaru still taking orders, picking up my 2023 BRZ in 2 weeks.
@@misnomerl6329 yeah I was there before the Trueno was announced.. we got brand new gr86's and Brz's all over the place at "used car" dealers, factory new, msrp.. maybe a tiny mark-up
I love the BRZs/86s so much, but imo its always been the wrong way round. A toyota motor with a subaru chassis should have been the way. The GR Corolla Motor in this would be so good.
The best things about the current GR86 is the weight, center of gravity, balance and most importantly the price. It is a great successor to the AE86. A new platform with a more powerful and complicated engine will ruin at least the price and center of gravity and weight.
The issue is that this new engine does NOT hold up when driven hard. Many... WAY too many people who are very experienced track car owners have blown up these engines. Oil pan baffle, oil cooler, new fluids, boom. If thats not enought, the new GR cup car also uses this engine in its stock form. They have already been seeing major failures. These are professional race teams that can't get this engine to hold. As someone who bought a GR86, I'm extremely frustrated bc I was certain my car would spend a ton of its time on the track... now it can never even see the track bc I cannot afford a new engine
It's only a good move if it can stay as a manual (1st and foremost) and of course not edge into that 40k territory. Else it won't be worth buying when you have better options in the same price range with similar/better specs.
If toyota could offer a engine that somehow breaks honda's N/A engine record of i believe 120 hp/l with a few kg's less and with toyota reliability is what this segment needs...
The oil starvation issue is way overblown. This generation of the 86 is a very special car. If you are running the car on the track and you are aware of any limitations, then you watch out for them like in EVERY car. The simplicity of this GEN 86 is the magic. I'm not interested in a turbo/electric overly complicated model. They will eventually ruin everything good and basic. 😢 Get one now.... Keep it....
I absolutely love the EJ engine from earlier turbo charged Subaru. I have and will own more. But I have been fortunate to drive a previous and newer gen BRZ and can say I don't find the same enthusiasm in a NA boxer motor. With that the car was a joy to drive to get that chassis with a Toyota engine would have me sold.
Toyota got tired of the boxers blowing up. Another nail in the coffin for Subaru. If Subaru doesn’t fix their engine problems, I don’t see them being in business in the next 15 years.
Let's hope it's not like the GR corolla. Keep it RWD, LSD, traction control all the way off, and able to play 👍. Otherwise, we might as well just go buy a more practical FWD depression chamber.
Does anyone know how long the current generation of gr86 will last? I want to buy it brand new but I still have about 2 years to go until I have the funds for it.
I find it unlikely that the gr86 is going to be a toyota only car mostly because currently the brz is based on a late 90s legacy chassis and they would have to fully redesign the whole car from the ground up.
The reason for platform sharing is shared development costs and reduced production costs for each OEM. On a low volume car it doesn’t make sense to go it alone. I’d file this as fantasy.
I'm inclined to agree. We've been reading stories for years about how these days low volume sports cars are too expensive to develop by single OEMs, now suddenly Toyota has the bankroll to totally overhaul a 15 year old model with a new engine? How many years are they planning to sell this new model, in order to amortize the R&D costs associated with the new powertrain? Hopefully more than 2 model years, or they'll be firing their accounting department in about two years.
If they do partner with anyone it should be Yamaha or Mazda. Engines should be either a inline 4 (preferably NA) or NA Inline 6, whichever it is it also needs an 8000+ redline. I expect the price to go maybe around $40,000 but it’ll be fine especially if they come out with a new “MR2” for around $25,000. If they partner with Mazda I expect it to be way more “luxurious” than the current one, but sadly smaller (RIP Tall drivers). What I would want is them to do a NA Inline 4 and offer a TRD Supercharger and for a higher trim it to come with a NA Inline 6. I really just want a modern 2000GT.
They should try and do a $38,000 facelift model in 2 years and offer a higher trim model with the 3-cylinder engine slapped in there, a BBK, wider wheels and tires, different front and rear bumpers, maybe a bit of aero and some chassis bracing. Should be doable in 2 years time. Call it a day. Extend development of the facelift version to GX460 levels (12+ years)
Subaru just needs to input their FA24DIT from current WRX into the BRZ. It’ll keep the boxer engine to keep the lower center of gravity and it’ll be turbocharged. The only minus is weight gain and the loss of port injection. Unless, they’re able to keep the port injection and are able to turbocharge it.
So instead of excess RTV settling in the oil pan, you'll have excess RTV getting in to the turbo oil lines? No thanks. WRXs are having excess RTV issues too.
@@anydaynow01 Even the new 2023s still have excess RTV. They did little to nothing to fix it so far. Maybe for 2024? I don't think they will. It's Subaru here. They're like the Mexico factory of Japanese car factories.
@@AM-uk7jv the RTV is applied via robotics. It’d be great if they adjust it, however RTV is not the sole cause of oil starvation that causes engine failure. RTV has been present in the older FA20 engines and they hold up well. Not sure if you’ve got a biased opinion against Subaru, but they’re also a good company that Toyota took technology from to improve their AWD system. Do your research before posting something.
I have a first gen 86, but I wasn't willing to go for a second gen. It looks more bubbly, and I have heard many of the oil issues have not been fixed. I am not interested in an unreliable design. I get if parts weren't strong enough they could be upgraded, but a block machined and designed with a bad oil system is much harder to remedy. I get for emissions and such they will go with the smaller motor, but they should put the 3.5 v6 in it. An aftermarket Supercharger or turbo and make 400+ horsepower and a ton of torque.
Kirk, another great video! You're the first UA-camr I've heard who refers to this car correctly as the ''eight six'' instead of as the ''eighty six''. I know you're focusing a lot of your content on cars in Japan, and mentioning a lot of Japanese place names. I just thought you might like to know that the pronunciation of Gunma should be ''Goon-ma''. Though, ''gan-ma'' does sound cool : )
This would be good news. That new boosted I3 would make for a great powerplant for a new 86.. Massively better than the Subie boxer which apparently has difficulty maintaining oil pressure in right hand turns.
Well where I live gr86 is sold for 57k euro, and that is because how taxation works here based on engine size, so a turbo 1.4 will be bringing that price down to high 40s low 50s
Would it be possible that the cost for the 3 cylinder turbo would be cheaper come 2028? Due to manufacturing improvements, RND already being done, etc. Maybe that'll keep the costs to be relatively cheap? Wishful thinking with everything getting increasingly more expensive
Now you really wonder is Toyota actually working on something more radical to replace the GR86: a true successor to the MR2. Built around a mid-mounted M20A-FKS engine and an all-new lighter-weight body design, the new MR2 will be "back to basics" sports car to directly compete against the Mazda Miata.
Maybe a H2 ICE would be a better bet for their sports cars if they can get the infrastructure in place in the next decade or so. EV sports cars are fast, but coming from someone who's EV commuting appliance is technically faster than their manual H shift ICE track day car, the manual ICE car is just way more fun and rewarding to drive at speed than the EV.
I want to get one so i hope they keep the price affordable. If it's 40k+ i'll look elsewhere. I don't mind hybrid as long as the engine itself is solid and comes in MT.
At $40K the 3-cylinder GR86 would probably supplant the 4-cylinder Supra, which doesn't sell well at all. That might just be an addition to the line beside/above the current flat-4 model. When the flat-4 has run its course, that is when we could see an electric MR2 as the entry-level sports car.
Personally, i believe there are benefits to having a boxer 4 in the chassis. The oil pan issues aren't the only problems with those engines, and requires aftermarket solutions. In warmer (third world) countries (I've known) the ignition coils fail intermittently, along with other suspension related issues, although its not confined to the GR/GT platform only. The only major Toyota tech on the FA engine is the D4S system. I have no qualms about Toyota wanting to produce the next gen entirely, as long as support for the the current platform isn't adversely affected.
Yep, they need to take apart a few modern Porsche engines and take some notes. Not bad mouthing them, sounds like most of the issues are really just quality control really. Spending a few hundred extra on each engine on friction coatings and a better oil pan should fix all of these issues.
I might actually consider one if they develop their own motor! I'm simply not a Subaru fan and years ago when I test drove one I was a little disappointed, ended up buying a 9th gen civic si at the time.
I might finally get one if the engine is built in-house My love for the current 86 is solely due to its looks and the rwd aspect. Mechanically, I'm not willing to take a gamble on Subaru's boxer
The fact is when the 86 was a slow car no one wanted it. That made it the perfect car for people who wanted a first sports car. Then it became cool with the GR and that was that. UA-camrs bought em and now they aren't affordable.
Toyota needs to do the same thing with this BMW Super Detach from BMW, and build the next Toyota Super totally on their own ,which Toyota should have did from the first place !!!
Why waste money doing that when the cars doing well as is with a good chassis along with a good engine and trans combo that's in a good price bracket as is? You'd just be doing a 180 cause toyo wanted it to be within that price range plus them wanting to make much more EV/hybrid platforms by 2025 so it'd be a waste to throw away the current car when they could just make it a hybrid and save money.
Or Toyota could team up with Mazda and create the next gen affordable sports car. Toyota could make the next gen RWD coupe (GR86) from that platform and Mazda a RWD roadster (MX-5). This way both companies could save up some money and at the same time make a sports car that is different, one is a coupe and the other is a roadster. Not like it's now with Subaru, 2 identical cars with different badges.
People who are complaining about this car do not understand what it is. The boxer does make it drive like no other car. There is no front engine boxer rear drive car in existence that weighs 2800lbs. Its freaking amazing. Thank you Toyota
Why would they add the hybrid portion? That would complicate maintenance and make it a bit more complicated. Isn’t the point of the 86 to be a simple and pure sports car? I’d rather see it be a simple corolla lift back again.
It could be Subraru and Toyota will be challenging each other with the next gen? Brz would get an upgrade wrx engine with a turbo setup and GR86 will follow the 1.6l turbo setup.
they shouldve used the 3 cylinder but detuned from the corolla to make aorund 250-270hp, but it prob would sell wayy more than the corolla if they did that which is competing against themselves
Ever since Subaru dumped the STi right when I was ready to buy one, couldn't care less about Subaru anymore. I heard turbo now I'm interested. I'm curious if the Supra 2.0 has sold well at all, and if not this could easily replace that, with maybe a non-turbo version for the low price sports car segment.
Supra 2.0 is combined with the 3.0 mk5s. Will say, it honestly doesn't matter anyway cause they barely make them and are barely relevant to where it's rare to see 2.0 mk5s vs 3.0 mk5s.
I'd really love to see a separation between the two. I understand why they teamed up but I want a truly TOYOTA creation Subaru loves also deserve their own unique styling
After seeing the oil starvation debacles play out I'd much prefer a toyota engine next gen
Yeah, happy to see a different engine. The engine has kept me away from both generations.
I'm thinking that the engine assembly issues were a motivation for this project.
Toyota got tired of the boxers blowing up. They knew in terms of reliability that Subaru isn’t getting any better any time soon, even with their help. Why use their engines to destroy their image?
Another nail in the coffin for Subaru.
If Subaru doesn’t fix their engine problems, I don’t see them being in business in the next 15 years.
@@faheemabbas3965probably won’t matter because when has it ever deterred subie fans? I feel like they almost wear their blown head gaskets as a badge. Crosstreks and outbacks are still EVERYWHERE. I won’t be complaining that toyota is moving on though
@@Brian_Eugene_Lee To be fair, the B48 and B58 are actually reliable. Expensive to fix, sure, but reliable. The same cannot be said for Subaru's engine.
With the markups, the GR86 stopped being affordable a while ago. I see them selling for nearly $40k now.
I’m selling mine special edition at 40k
wow 50k to have silicone in your engine...just buy a Japanese built Miata for cheaper 🤣 (maybe 86 is Japanese built too, I can't remember....but it still isn't on par quality wise with the Miata)
Usually pretty common to find at msrp in Illinois atleast, just have to find a MSRP dealer we currently have 2
Buy a brz. There are literally 10+ BRZs within 100 miles from me that I could go pick up today.
Very good pricing, in the Netherlands the price for a nice Yaris....., the GR costs 70k Euro 😢😢😢😢😢
I paid $29k for my BRZ and can accept some trade offs in terms of interior, ride quality, etc. I wanted a simple, normally aspirated sports car. Bouncing it to $40k and adding a turbo or electric assist will appeal to the stat bois, but will it make it a better sports car? That being said I wish Subaru would own up to the oiling issues.
Having the ability to still kick the back end out a bit, while wearing bigger stickier tries...Yes that would be a much better sports car. Especially taking the Subaru engine issues out of the equation, and putting in a far more reliable & tuner friendly option from the start.
@@tv321123 I’m with you on the engine thing. Subaru screwed the pooch on the oiling system
Me too: paid $29k for my new brz. Toyota dealerships had markups of $10-15k over msrp
Funny thing is, that rumoured 1.4L 3cyl Turbo engine technically already running inside a GR86. It's a de-stroked G16E engine and used for race use by Rookie Racing (Akio Toyoda's personal race team) in Super Taikyu (Japan's Premier Endurance Racing).
Yep!
This screams its intention. Destroking likely allows the 1.4 to rev higher, and I bet that thing more than compensates for the higher CG with overall less weight.
@@KirkKreifels I really don't think the hybrid part will be there for the next gen like those rumour said, but the G16E part? I can actually get that since it's their latest performance engine that can keep the car's light weight characteristics intact.
Plus they have to recoup the engine R&D cost from somewhere
they should give option for the hybrid to replace the 4th piston in when the power output happens, so sound and power are linearly correlated instead of sound coming on when battery power is stoped. for emissions testing and as a option , it can run a more effiency focused way
No imagine trying to get your hands on the trueno edition
People in media / UA-camrs are making the price situation worse - there's really no reason for the price to jump so much because of that engine - it doesn't cost them (much) more for that engine to make. It's purely that we keep setting an expectation that every time a new model comes out we think if it has more power that it should cost more. They know we expect it and so can get away with it.
The BRZ in Australia was 6-7k cheaper on release than the GR86... because Toyota thinks it's 'priced well based on the market'... That's just pure greed.
That's not the main issue. The issue is that this new engine does NOT hold up when driven hard. Many... WAY too many people who are very experienced track car owners have blown up these engines. Oil pan baffle, oil cooler, new fluids, boom. If thats not enought, the new GR cup car also uses this engine in its stock form. They have already been seeing major failures. These are professional race teams that can't get this engine to hold.
As someone who bought a GR86, I'm extremely frustrated bc I was certain my car would spend a ton of its time on the track... now it can never even see the track bc I cannot afford a new engine
@@doorey2well actually if you just make left turns you should mostly be fine lol. The testing I’ve seen shows a drop in oil pressure only on right handed turns. So I’m sure eventually there will be some decent well baffled oil pans to compensate for this. Or you could always go dry sump if you want to track it. They’re expensive but they would definitely remedy the oil starvation problem.
Still I wouldn’t track a stock FA24 BRZ/GR86. There’s a very good chance that it will pop the engine if you do anything close to an actual hard lap.
What’s great about this news if it’s true that the 3 Cylinder turbo will make it into the next GR86 I will be extremely happy. As this current G16 is really taking a beating in the aftermarket and seems to be more than capable of handling it. I would love to see a G14 variant that’s capable of revving higher and has a much more free revving and top end happy turbo engine. Those power bands are very fun and since they don’t have a big heavy engine up front it will still have amazing balance.
@@roochiecoochI believe they also lose oil pressure uphill. Not as severe at hard, right cornering. Even if you don’t track them, it’s still likely to have long term internal damage. The verdict is still out, but I wouldn’t gamble on it. I wish the best of luck to all BRZ/GR86 owners, daily or track driven.
@@doorey2 Do you have actual stats with a link on this?
@@saifk6188probably saw the video on brz900 channel
The turbo three is probably the next engine for the GR86 since there are test vehicles running that engine now. The price will probably be closer to $40k like you said and that would leave the upcoming MR2 as the more affordable option.
$30k-$37k MR2
$37k-$42k GR86
$42k-$50k GR Corolla
$50k-$65k GR Supra
One can only hope. I can’t afford a $60k Corolla
@@criznittynot with that attitude
The BMW Supra is dead after 2024 per Toyota soooo…
3 cylinder engines are garbage. Very weak and very rough. Even most motorcycles are 4 cylinder. Turbo and electrification will guarantee reliability issues and shorter lifespan and more weight and higher costs. All this is great for Toyota's profits but terrible for people wanting a good raw affordable sports car!
Dam it’s been 2 years already? I barely see any around here.
Because nobody wants to pay a mark up for a “track car” that’s really just slow and has limited tuning potential. Let’s face it today if you don’t have a car worth roll racing or drag racing no body cares if you can turn when other option crap on it in that category. Basically it’s a normal car that’s sporty that’s it. Nobody respects anything that’s not 300hp or more today. Displacement ain’t an excuse when boost exist it’s just pure laziness that nobody has time for Sorry. This is why you don’t see them. This car is for the high schooler.
You can get automatics fairly easily without markup if you’re liking to call a lot of dealers
No inventory in my area, however there are plenty of used ones of the last gen model. But because the kids love them, many of them have crash history/rebuilt status and insurance is expensive
After having my BRZ on order in Australia since just after release - it only arrived 3 months ago and already they are discussing another 😂
Blame the stealerships marking them up
Got the GR86 about 2 months ago. Its such a fun car to drive. Looking forward to the new generation.
Hope you don't track it, until you get some baffles or wait for a fix from Toyota/Subaru, because if you haven't heard the GR86 suffers some REALLY bad oil starvation when making hard right hand turns to the point where the oil pressure will drop to 28 PSI at 6600 RPM WHICH IS STUPID LOW.
@DJG37S it's doing great so far but I'm fully aware of the issues. Going to get that taken care of.
I have 42k miles on the dash still running smoothly on my gr86 I think the engine problems come with the manual I'm afraid to admit I got an automatic but I never had any oil problems
@@POPOLAMEYT The oiling issue has nothing to do with the transmission. This effects both auto's and manual because of how the oil pump is designed.
Go search on youtube "BRZ/GR86 FA24 Oil Pressure Loss Demonstration" and watch the video from 900BRZ demonstrate how this has nothing to do with the transmission. It's the fact that there is barely any oil pressure making hard right hand corners because of the way the oil pan and the oil pump is designed.
@@DJG37Sso did E36 M3s. 50K km. No engine mods. 2 years of track days & AutoX. It's a huge problem on YT. Real world? Not so much.
It’s an amazing car with a good boxer engine, but Toyota is more than capable, they have the finances for it, Toyota by themselves have made legendary cars (LFA Supra AE86 MR2 even the second to last gen Celica) the boxer motor is garbage after 80k miles with head gaskets and block cracking being 2 of the main issues with the BRZ and the 86 FR-S whatever. Toyota needs to put a decent 4 cylinder or even a straight 6 if it would fit for the 3rd gen, keep hybrid and electrification out of the sports cars.
I agree. 👍
Subaru can go out of business honesty.
Their engines are never going to get better.
“It’s an amazing car with a good boxer engine……the boxer motor is garbage after 80k…” What?
I’m no Subaru expert but I think the EJ motors had head gasket issues and has since been resolved since 2012. The engines are very finicky. Someone buys an STI or WRX and slaps a cold air intake or even a silly little blow off valve and that confuses the crap out of the ecu. Not to mention the crazy tunes ppl put on them. A lot of people mod the crap out of them and drive them like they stole it, don’t check the oil, don’t maintain it.
As a first gen, FA20 owner, with 155k miles, it still runs great. Maybe I got lucky? I was never a fan of the boxer due to the stories behind them and some maintenance is a bit tricky, but it’s a great chassis and down right fun car to own. That being said, I’m excited for something Toyota under the hood.
Toyota is the king of sneaky performance engines.
4age, 3sgte, 2zzge, 2gr, 2jz, 1jz, 1uz, 2uz, 3uz, 1gz. The list goes on and on
@@stevef3521 you must’ve gotten lucky who someone really took care of that Subaru before you, but my friend who was on top of maintenance working at a Toyota dealership, his engine blew at 87k head gasket blown it was a 2015 FR-S. So he made the call and swapped it out for a 1JZ fat turbo hasn’t had any issues since.
No Electric, NO HYBRID, NO AUTOMATIC. CLEAN ice engine with a manual ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Agreed if they are so worried about the environment, they should have a flex fuel sensor in it instead of going EV.
The boxer motor has rtv issues and oil starvation on hard right up turns. There’s a pretty scientific video floating around on it. Toyota could easily dev a 250 hp I4 motor
I have reason to believe they were planning on using a version of the 2ar fe if the deal with subaru didn't go through. The power would have been similar in the 1st gen, but they obviously wanted a lower center of gravity from the boxer.
@@Treaxvourso a rwd tC?
Why not with +50hp hybrid battery?
@@Treaxvour in my opinion I don’t think the lower center of gravity is worth more then the reliability of a I4 motor. Miata’s seem to do fine with them for example. A hybrid could work but more R&D would drive up costs on this “affordable roadster. Battery pack would lower center of gravity too.
Why not throw the engine from the Corolla GR
hopefully the new gen 86 can turn right this time without losing oil pressure
Idk man, this is a slippery slope that Toyota is walking. So many sports cars have been killed off by getting more and more expensive, pricing themselves out of existence.
The only thing that might be cool is if Toyota had a gr 86 that was around 40k and Subaru kept selling a brz similar to the one we have now.
You better appreciate how affordable it is in the US right now. In Europe it's anything between 40 and 60k USD. And people will still buy it.
I saw one guy in the FT86 reddit who posted a sales ad from his country, they were asking the equivalent of 110k USD for a base first gen 86. Turns out the lira is a really bad currency to try to buy things with, especially if what you're buying was not made in your country. But I take your point, the EU countries are all competing to outdo each other on consumption, fuel and pollution taxes. Makes for a not very healthy enthusiast crowd, when you have to be a rich SOB to even afford an entry level sports car.
" Imagine... an a engine 1,6t. inline 3 from the 2023 Corolla GS with a extra piston to make a 2.2t with 400hp !!!"
I keep hearing buzz about Toyota resurrecting the Celica. But I don’t see how Toyota has room in their line up for BOTH a Celica and a GR86. So something is definitely afoot.
The MR2 will probably be the new entry model.
That's IF it gets a worldwide release. Ugly rumors going around that it won't be for sale in US or EU, leaving just the Aussies and Japan. I'd love to buy one, but I'm not going to wait 25 years to import one as a classic.
@@redlion145I’m in Aussie so not complaining
I'm betting Celica
That would be awesome if true! Love my SW20 and wouldn’t mind adding a new MR2 to the stable.
@@OldSchool9690 A turbo 3 hybrid "GR86" seems more like a Celica in my opinion, especially if it goes up in price. I have a feeling they'll rename it.
My only concern is how they would pair the hybrid platform to a manual if they decide to.
Easy for Toyota. They're making a manual for BEV...now that sounds difficult haha
@@KirkKreifels Their bev "manual" isn't an honest to god manual, though. It simulates a manual transmission.
@@connorcampbell5274exactly. It’s a joke.
Honda did it with the CRZ, I do not see why Toyota could not do it a decade later.
@@KirkKreifels makes sense. Manual in a GR86 is the soul on that makes it what it is. I think Toyota will find a way.
What do you expect? people keep complaining of lack of power, not premium enough, and now Toyota is going to address all of those concerns, and the result is a more powerful and premium vehicle with a higher price tag. So now we complain about higher price? Nothing is for free, more of everything means more money simple as that.
You are a legend. Went to Toyota to negotiate pricing and the info about manufacturing increases helped trying to negotiate down an 86 price.
They still kept a minor markup (didn’t purchase). Nonetheless, this is amazing for the toolbox when shopping.
I would just be worried about price creep. I'd rather keep the current gen around for a while.
Kirk, Your video leads to the fundamental question as to why Subaru continues to design, engineer and build their own powertrains so many years after Toyota bought such a big chunk of the company. 🤔I don't know if Toyota will build an affordable RWD sports coupe all by themselves but a GR Corolla Touring Sports with the European wheelbase would go a long way to covering all sporting requirements.🤩😁
Hopefully the next gen has an engine more in line with the original 86.
Maybe 4AGE or 2ZZGE inspired
Yes pleeeeease!!! I want nothing more. I would go and buy one right away if it had a classic high revving four banger
@@izzy031096 that was one one of my biggest detractors from the current 86 models. They just don’t scream and rev as happily as engines in the past.
I wouldn’t mind an NA 2.0 designed specifically with High revving in mind. With today’s tech I can’t imagine it would be hard to make it meet emissions standards.
@@omarawilson2853 absolutely, the 2zz’s ran clean as a whistle and easily passed emissions. With 20 years of r&d imagine what can be achieved
@@izzy031096 thing I never understood was why didn’t Toyota just make the 2ZZGE RWD like they did for the 3SGE. The work for the engine was already done. They could’ve added D4S and Dual VVTLI. After all the 2ZZGE was the first 4 cyl to incorporate cam lift and VVT.
The 2ZZGE was the perfect choice for the FRS/86/BRZ, yet Toyota went with FA20 instead just cuz of it low center of gravity which when you consider that engines issues doesn’t seem like it was worth it
As a 2017 86 owner...I am HAPPY they are going to dump the boxer!!
Why?!
@@10cent_not50 It's not as tuner friendly as a "normal" inline 4 when it comes to boosting. these boxers are a bit delicate when you add forced induction ;-)
The boxer motor was a failure in Toyota standards from the beginning.
86 is closer to around $40k out the door not 30
For me, this is hard me to believe these rumors as R and D and investsment on a new platform takes more than 5 years. The first gen stuck around for almost 10 years and we have been hearing these rumors since the speculation of a the second gen. But as a FR-S and now an AE86 owner, I love to see a proper Toyota Engine with tuned Yamaha sounds. You can't buy these smiles.
Preach. I don’t personally own one of the twins but have driven a frs. As someone who owns a Celica with the 2ZZGE, the FRS/BRZ/86 platform would’ve been perfect for maybe 2.0 version of that engine.
Can’t beat that Yamaha sound
@@omarawilson2853I get it. I used to own a 3S-GE celica and that 2.0 sounded so good when it revs up. It is music.
@@vinnycent007 you bet. Was really surprised when I found out Toyota didn’t go to Yamaha their long time engine building partner to make new iconic engine for the twins
Awesome news and I hope it actually happens. The reliability of the 86 platform has always been shotty with subaru's boxer engine (whether you like it or not). I love the current generation 86, however, more and more customers are experiencing terminal engine failures and its pushing people like me away from buying the car. Let's hope and see what Toyota can do with this car in the future!
Yeah cause people throw a turbo and tune and expect it to be reliable
There are fa20s at 350k miles and many more above 200k not what I would consider unreliable, just an owner problem. But don't get me wrong a Toyota engine would be awesome.
@@jonathanwrx7805 Yup, people always defending their shit too smh. Face the facts, they been making boxers for time and they can't even get it right.
@@VrexlockI agree but the FA24 had the issue of potentially falling under hard right cornering on track which discourages new buyers
The 86 might go up in price with the potential MR2 coming in as an entree level sports car
The 4-cylinder Supra doesn't sell at all. Maybe they want a turbo 86 to fill that slot, especially if a new MR2 end up priced close to the Toyobaru model.
I would rather pay more for a reliable inline 4 than a shitty boxer engine.
@@jimiverson3085 Yeah, the BMW inline 6 is a pretty sweet engine. The BMW 4cyl turbo might as well be in VW's. ;( Of course the VW 5cyl turbo > BMW inline 6
I love to listen to someone rambling for 12 minutes about an article that can be read in 1 minute with the same outcome.
No way the GR hybrid engine will make this thing cheap and if they do it, it's FINISHED. welcome the new $60k Prius Drift edition. curb weight 3300lbs. rubber-bandy like the GR 3 cylinder with 9 years of rev hang and a rebuild required at 80,000 miles. but might get 40mpg IF you go 0-60 in 3 minutes. no thanks.
Ive never driven the 86 or BRZ. I hear they are great track cars. They have their fanboys. I love the idea of a basic bare bones "sports car" which these two are classic examples of just that.
I own a current model manual BRZ. Amazing to drive - smile on my face every single time. I wouldn't say no to turbo from factory though 😂
They're actually also quite capable as daily drivers because they have so much room in the back
I'm no Subaru fan, but my only hope is that new gen will use the current platform, as of Toyota what first comes to mind is a FWD 86 with an econobox engine, i wouldn't even be surprised if they do that.
gunna do the 86 like the did the celica.
RIP
I love my 7th gen celica, but certain things like having RWD/AWD and more trims on top of the GT/GTS, it would’ve been perfect.
I dont think thr price increase would be too crazy of they actually bring the MR2 to market. They wont have any gaps with the rumored price range of it
Makes me wonder why Toyota is thinking of getting rid of the Subaru partnership. There are plenty of stories out there with the new GR86 engine blowing up due to oil starvation, and story after story of Toyota dealers not honoring their warranty with the owners of this car. So makes me wonder if Toyota is planning on doing this because they don’t want to continue using Subaru’s engine, that keeps failing. Maybe they have plans to make it all their own, problem free…
Just wait till you hear how shady Toyota really is
hard to like a $40k+ 3cyl turbo, when for ~$10k more you get the RWD inline 6 supra that easily makes twice the power with very simple mods
It’s more realistic to see Subaru use the current WRX engine in it (great engine btw), which could keep the price around $30k like the base model WRX
If they did that, I would be in line at the dealership tomorrow. Yes please, gimmie
tried to order a gr86 at Toyota here in Japan like 2 months ago, they told me they've stopped taking orders because they are planning to something new. couldn't tell me any more. Subaru still taking orders, picking up my 2023 BRZ in 2 weeks.
Just paid down payment today for Trueno edition at msrp and I live in LA 😆. Arriving sometime next year lol.
@@misnomerl6329 yeah I was there before the Trueno was announced.. we got brand new gr86's and Brz's all over the place at "used car" dealers, factory new, msrp.. maybe a tiny mark-up
Better get a GR-86 before 2028. I don't want a 3 cylinder turbo charged engine in my GR-86.
Been a fan since there were less than 1k subs! Keep it up, Kirk!
If this happens, good luck getting one for an MSRP under 45k.
I love the BRZs/86s so much, but imo its always been the wrong way round. A toyota motor with a subaru chassis should have been the way. The GR Corolla Motor in this would be so good.
The best things about the current GR86 is the weight, center of gravity, balance and most importantly the price. It is a great successor to the AE86.
A new platform with a more powerful and complicated engine will ruin at least the price and center of gravity and weight.
Nope, a Toyota based inline four will improve the car drastically and make it more accurate to its ancestor
fuck that flat4
The issue is that this new engine does NOT hold up when driven hard. Many... WAY too many people who are very experienced track car owners have blown up these engines. Oil pan baffle, oil cooler, new fluids, boom. If thats not enought, the new GR cup car also uses this engine in its stock form. They have already been seeing major failures. These are professional race teams that can't get this engine to hold.
As someone who bought a GR86, I'm extremely frustrated bc I was certain my car would spend a ton of its time on the track... now it can never even see the track bc I cannot afford a new engine
@@doorey2 It doesn't need a new engine, it needs the current engine fixed.
@@doorey2 source: trust me bro
It's only a good move if it can stay as a manual (1st and foremost) and of course not edge into that 40k territory. Else it won't be worth buying when you have better options in the same price range with similar/better specs.
If toyota could offer a engine that somehow breaks honda's N/A engine record of i believe 120 hp/l with a few kg's less and with toyota reliability is what this segment needs...
The oil starvation issue is way overblown. This generation of the 86 is a very special car. If you are running the car on the track and you are aware of any limitations, then you watch out for them like in EVERY car. The simplicity of this GEN 86 is the magic. I'm not interested in a turbo/electric overly complicated model. They will eventually ruin everything good and basic. 😢
Get one now.... Keep it....
I absolutely love the EJ engine from earlier turbo charged Subaru. I have and will own more. But I have been fortunate to drive a previous and newer gen BRZ and can say I don't find the same enthusiasm in a NA boxer motor. With that the car was a joy to drive to get that chassis with a Toyota engine would have me sold.
Toyota got tired of the boxers blowing up.
Another nail in the coffin for Subaru.
If Subaru doesn’t fix their engine problems, I don’t see them being in business in the next 15 years.
I had a 86 for a year. The fuel injector chirp sound lives in my head rent free.
GR86 Prime would be it. Drop everything and run to the dealership.
Let's hope it's not like the GR corolla.
Keep it RWD, LSD, traction control all the way off, and able to play 👍. Otherwise, we might as well just go buy a more practical FWD depression chamber.
Does anyone know how long the current generation of gr86 will last? I want to buy it brand new but I still have about 2 years to go until I have the funds for it.
I find it unlikely that the gr86 is going to be a toyota only car mostly because currently the brz is based on a late 90s legacy chassis and they would have to fully redesign the whole car from the ground up.
The reason for platform sharing is shared development costs and reduced production costs for each OEM. On a low volume car it doesn’t make sense to go it alone. I’d file this as fantasy.
I'm inclined to agree. We've been reading stories for years about how these days low volume sports cars are too expensive to develop by single OEMs, now suddenly Toyota has the bankroll to totally overhaul a 15 year old model with a new engine? How many years are they planning to sell this new model, in order to amortize the R&D costs associated with the new powertrain? Hopefully more than 2 model years, or they'll be firing their accounting department in about two years.
I really like the Gen2 design so i wish they keep it. Just please fix these blowing up motors. RTV sealant and hard right turns 💀
If they do partner with anyone it should be Yamaha or Mazda.
Engines should be either a inline 4 (preferably NA) or NA Inline 6, whichever it is it also needs an 8000+ redline.
I expect the price to go maybe around $40,000 but it’ll be fine especially if they come out with a new “MR2” for around $25,000.
If they partner with Mazda I expect it to be way more “luxurious” than the current one, but sadly smaller (RIP Tall drivers).
What I would want is them to do a NA Inline 4 and offer a TRD Supercharger and for a higher trim it to come with a NA Inline 6. I really just want a modern 2000GT.
Yamaha helped build the 1jzge, 3sgte, 2zzge, LFA, literally all of Toyota's best engines. Yamaha ftw
Which trim of the pilot do you have?
Finally I cant wait for what toyota has in store for the gr86 high revving inline 4 perhaps or the gr corolla drive train...
They should try and do a $38,000 facelift model in 2 years and offer a higher trim model with the 3-cylinder engine slapped in there, a BBK, wider wheels and tires, different front and rear bumpers, maybe a bit of aero and some chassis bracing. Should be doable in 2 years time. Call it a day. Extend development of the facelift version to GX460 levels (12+ years)
Subaru just needs to input their FA24DIT from current WRX into the BRZ. It’ll keep the boxer engine to keep the lower center of gravity and it’ll be turbocharged. The only minus is weight gain and the loss of port injection. Unless, they’re able to keep the port injection and are able to turbocharge it.
So instead of excess RTV settling in the oil pan, you'll have excess RTV getting in to the turbo oil lines? No thanks. WRXs are having excess RTV issues too.
@@AM-uk7jv Sounds like an easy enough fix, just apply a bit less RTV. The first round of engines may suffer but going forward problem solved.
@@anydaynow01 Even the new 2023s still have excess RTV. They did little to nothing to fix it so far. Maybe for 2024? I don't think they will. It's Subaru here. They're like the Mexico factory of Japanese car factories.
@@AM-uk7jv the RTV is applied via robotics. It’d be great if they adjust it, however RTV is not the sole cause of oil starvation that causes engine failure. RTV has been present in the older FA20 engines and they hold up well. Not sure if you’ve got a biased opinion against Subaru, but they’re also a good company that Toyota took technology from to improve their AWD system. Do your research before posting something.
I have a first gen 86, but I wasn't willing to go for a second gen. It looks more bubbly, and I have heard many of the oil issues have not been fixed. I am not interested in an unreliable design. I get if parts weren't strong enough they could be upgraded, but a block machined and designed with a bad oil system is much harder to remedy. I get for emissions and such they will go with the smaller motor, but they should put the 3.5 v6 in it. An aftermarket Supercharger or turbo and make 400+ horsepower and a ton of torque.
I'm actually looking into putting a 2GR-FSE (the IS350 V6) into an FR-S down the line, hopefully I can find a good base to make that project a reality
Kirk, another great video! You're the first UA-camr I've heard who refers to this car correctly as the ''eight six'' instead of as the ''eighty six''. I know you're focusing a lot of your content on cars in Japan, and mentioning a lot of Japanese place names. I just thought you might like to know that the pronunciation of Gunma should be ''Goon-ma''. Though, ''gan-ma'' does sound cool : )
GR86 is modern porsche 944 alternative
This would be good news. That new boosted I3 would make for a great powerplant for a new 86..
Massively better than the Subie boxer which apparently has difficulty maintaining oil pressure in right hand turns.
remade 4AGE in a hatchback coupe is my dream, especially the hatch because that would make it way more practical.
I could imagine its gonna have the 3 cylinder turbo from the GR corolla in it.
I think those 48v mild hybrid systems , which replace batteries with Super Capacitors will be more common and cheaper by then.
Nah it's going to be between the engine and transmission
Good. The current FA24D can't even handle a day at the track without blowing up.
Finally! Reason why i traded my FRS was because of the lackluster and oil consuming subaru engine. I hope the new engine is created in house!
They can fix the god damn engine. Toyota isn't inept.
What about Toyota placing a tuned version of the base Camry engine? 2.5L Naturally aspirated to keep costs down.
Well where I live gr86 is sold for 57k euro, and that is because how taxation works here based on engine size, so a turbo 1.4 will be bringing that price down to high 40s low 50s
Would it be possible that the cost for the 3 cylinder turbo would be cheaper come 2028? Due to manufacturing improvements, RND already being done, etc.
Maybe that'll keep the costs to be relatively cheap? Wishful thinking with everything getting increasingly more expensive
Costs for them != costs for us. They'd jack up the price just because it's the "turbo" version of the car everyone wanted a turbo in.
2028 is too far away.
Subaru is failing to keep up what built their brand so much and its sad and not making performance cars will make them looses their brand reputation
Now you really wonder is Toyota actually working on something more radical to replace the GR86: a true successor to the MR2. Built around a mid-mounted M20A-FKS engine and an all-new lighter-weight body design, the new MR2 will be "back to basics" sports car to directly compete against the Mazda Miata.
Is it possible for the GR 86 be a BEV with solid-state batteries?
2035 anything is possible
@@KirkKreifels Still a long way ahead…but we’ll get there.
Maybe a H2 ICE would be a better bet for their sports cars if they can get the infrastructure in place in the next decade or so. EV sports cars are fast, but coming from someone who's EV commuting appliance is technically faster than their manual H shift ICE track day car, the manual ICE car is just way more fun and rewarding to drive at speed than the EV.
I want to get one so i hope they keep the price affordable. If it's 40k+ i'll look elsewhere. I don't mind hybrid as long as the engine itself is solid and comes in MT.
I would love that.. never understood that collaboration.
At $40K the 3-cylinder GR86 would probably supplant the 4-cylinder Supra, which doesn't sell well at all. That might just be an addition to the line beside/above the current flat-4 model. When the flat-4 has run its course, that is when we could see an electric MR2 as the entry-level sports car.
Personally, i believe there are benefits to having a boxer 4 in the chassis. The oil pan issues aren't the only problems with those engines, and requires aftermarket solutions. In warmer (third world) countries (I've known) the ignition coils fail intermittently, along with other suspension related issues, although its not confined to the GR/GT platform only. The only major Toyota tech on the FA engine is the D4S system. I have no qualms about Toyota wanting to produce the next gen entirely, as long as support for the the current platform isn't adversely affected.
Perhaps a Mazda derived Turbo Inline 6 would be prime premium 💪
Well thats Supra territory. Not sure Mazda has a better engine than BMW, but who knows.
If 3rd gen gets electrification,will it be possible to maintain 6 speed manual for the enthusiasts?
What the enthusiasts want:
-Lightweight under 1300kg FR platform;
- high reving inline 4 naturally aspirated D4-S ~250-280ps;
- manual transmission manual handbrake;
As they should. Subaru needs to learn to be independent.
Yep, they need to take apart a few modern Porsche engines and take some notes. Not bad mouthing them, sounds like most of the issues are really just quality control really. Spending a few hundred extra on each engine on friction coatings and a better oil pan should fix all of these issues.
I still wish Toyota would make the Lexus UC hybrid sports coupe based on the 86.
I might actually consider one if they develop their own motor! I'm simply not a Subaru fan and years ago when I test drove one I was a little disappointed, ended up buying a 9th gen civic si at the time.
Toyota should use a 3 cylinder with hybridization to keep a “Naturally Aspirated” feel. (With hybridization…)
I might finally get one if the engine is built in-house
My love for the current 86 is solely due to its looks and the rwd aspect. Mechanically, I'm not willing to take a gamble on Subaru's boxer
The fact is when the 86 was a slow car no one wanted it. That made it the perfect car for people who wanted a first sports car. Then it became cool with the GR and that was that. UA-camrs bought em and now they aren't affordable.
Toyota needs to do the same thing with this BMW Super Detach from BMW, and build the next Toyota Super totally on their own ,which Toyota should have did from the first place !!!
Why waste money doing that when the cars doing well as is with a good chassis along with a good engine and trans combo that's in a good price bracket as is? You'd just be doing a 180 cause toyo wanted it to be within that price range plus them wanting to make much more EV/hybrid platforms by 2025 so it'd be a waste to throw away the current car when they could just make it a hybrid and save money.
Would the 86 turn into the rumored future Celica?
Or Toyota could team up with Mazda and create the next gen affordable sports car. Toyota could make the next gen RWD coupe (GR86) from that platform and Mazda a RWD roadster (MX-5). This way both companies could save up some money and at the same time make a sports car that is different, one is a coupe and the other is a roadster. Not like it's now with Subaru, 2 identical cars with different badges.
People who are complaining about this car do not understand what it is. The boxer does make it drive like no other car. There is no front engine boxer rear drive car in existence that weighs 2800lbs. Its freaking amazing. Thank you Toyota
Why would they add the hybrid portion? That would complicate maintenance and make it a bit more complicated. Isn’t the point of the 86 to be a simple and pure sports car? I’d rather see it be a simple corolla lift back again.
Why don’t they stick a Camry V6 in there? Lotus has been doing it for years.
It could be Subraru and Toyota will be challenging each other with the next gen? Brz would get an upgrade wrx engine with a turbo setup and GR86 will follow the 1.6l turbo setup.
Kinda funny they did 2 generations of NA engines with Subie, but plan to ditch them to do a turbo.
they shouldve used the 3 cylinder but detuned from the corolla to make aorund 250-270hp, but it prob would sell wayy more than the corolla if they did that which is competing against themselves
Ever since Subaru dumped the STi right when I was ready to buy one, couldn't care less about Subaru anymore. I heard turbo now I'm interested. I'm curious if the Supra 2.0 has sold well at all, and if not this could easily replace that, with maybe a non-turbo version for the low price sports car segment.
Supra 2.0 is combined with the 3.0 mk5s. Will say, it honestly doesn't matter anyway cause they barely make them and are barely relevant to where it's rare to see 2.0 mk5s vs 3.0 mk5s.
It'd be even more awesome if they did a complete redesign and make it retro like the old school ones
I'd really love to see a separation between the two.
I understand why they teamed up but I want a truly TOYOTA creation
Subaru loves also deserve their own unique styling