Positive Atheism
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- / sciencereason ... "Positive Atheism" by
• / skeptheist
An ongoing series of videos in which The Skeptheist discusses the concepts of skepticism, science, and philosophy.
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1) 1:01 Religious need as parantal need
2) 2:08 Connection with the atheist community
3) 2:50 Secular humanism, critical thinking
4) 4:12 Positive atheist memegineering
5) 5:15 Creativity as a positive barrier breaker
Sites mentioned in this episode:
• www.atheist-exp...
• www.nonprophets...
• podcastlaborato...
• / skeptheist
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EmbraceRationality
REJECTtheSupernatural
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biblesAreONLYbooks
faithIsNOTaVirtue
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Love&Science
Hope&creativity
PEACE&biscuits
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AtheismFreesMinds
@MikeDecipher
"it's only atheists who tend to want to believe in a god that doesn't make any sense."
Well, I'd say we refuse to believe in a god that doesn't make sense, or is amoral. Whereas others might be willing to ignore these things and worship anyway.
"but if you're going to inevitably disbelieve"
I agree wholeheartedly with your second point. We musn't let our particular biases prevent us from seeing the truth.
@rootvalue To me, a fundamental atheist would be one who's love of logic, reason & science drives them to remove *all* irrationality from the world. I gave 'inflexible' as an alternative description because I know it's provocative to use 'fundamentalist'.
@drakionx I'm not clear on what you mean or what your issue is but I'm pretty sure it's off topic, let's call it quits, eh?
Outstanding presentation, agreed on all points. Personally, I find it helpful to understand why believers worship and indeed, why I used to worship. There seems to be a real need that *uncritical* thought fulfills in the human psyche, much like the need of a child to be instructed by someone they trust. In that sense, skepticism is about finding trustworthy sources (but it still helps to get creative and pretend, from time to time).
"Blah, blah, blah, blah, you're wrong." I was laughing so hard through this video. It's all so true and funny in that sick kinda way. I've tried to figure out a replacement for what is being fulfilled by religious "belief". Sadly, unless you can come up with something as absurd or demoralizing, you won't have much luck...and then...we've merely changed shepards. I think people just speaking their minds can go a long way to allowing others to show their humanism. So, thanks :)
Well said, you're very articulate! I love this vid! My personal experience as an atheist is probably quite common for those over 50ish, when there was no "community", in fact you likely didn't tell anyone because they'd be shocked or called you crazy, plus you'd probably have been ostrisized by your own friends!
I didn't come to skepticism until much later, and this was indeed a freedom unto itself! The "community" on UA-cam has largely attributed to this.
That was exactly what I went through. Even though I reasoned that the exsistance of a god was unlikely I held on to those beliefs for a while because I like the idea of eternal paradise. I apologize for posting the previous comment twice.
@kelric6 Regardless of god's motives, slavery, rape and kidnapping are wrong. So it's o.k. with you, that your god did these things? Rape was o.k then, but not now.? I though your god never changed.
I really liked this video - Very reasoned and yes, a very positive outlook - It's easy to forget that Secular Humanism IS a very positive position, when facing the ignorance of true-believers... But patience, and calm, are powerful tools.
Religious thinking is a form of emotional immaturity... needing to have a parent take responsibility for oneself. Hmm interesting diagnosis, thanks for sharing it. Always thought provoking. Cheers.
Rhetoric could be a bit better, but covers some good points.
Kudos to the maker and the mirorr(er).
This was great, I'll mirror it in my blog if you don't mind.
Keep up the good work!
Good story and good speaker.
I like this. Glad I'm a subscriber.
Keep it going!
you like to do psychedelic drugs and play guitar? im being facetious
WE need better 'critical thinking' skills in our world and society.
Personally speaking, I think that was a great video. Thanks mate.
Thank you, that was very interesting. I hope to see you again!
Love this video, you explain our ideas very well =)
Excellent video - thanks for sharing with us!
Skepticism is actually leads me to God
Those who go to God for sense enjoyment and become frustrated, they say, "There is no God." This atheism and declaration that there is no God, it is a question of sense gratification. God is not meant for satisfying your senses. You are meant for satisfying God's senses. This is Krishna consciousness. And because the atheist class, they do not want to serve the senses of God, therefore they make impersonal. As soon as we make God impersonal, there is no sense that "I have now to supply."
@Mike
VV
Math is only the way we try to understand how the universe 'Does'.
Or another instance of this imposition; how we try to personify and understand the universe or reality by imposing our intelligence or image upon it.
But, yeah "things like purpose, meaning, and God would be nothing more than [Our attempts at understanding the] developments of the universe."
"Think about it. People can [...]"
Yep. I agree with this bit. T'would be nice to know how to manipulate that equation. Heh!
@Mike
V
I'm for the 'ground-up' theory in terms of intelligence. Nature is reality, Intelligence is just a means of observing and manipulating reality. But reality could still go on just fine without spawning any intelligence.
"becomes questionable when you consider scientific holism"
How so?
I think it's important to distinguish between 'what is', and 'what we impose on what is'.
For instance: The universe doesn't 'use' Mathematics. That's a human construct. The universe just 'does'.
VV
@Mike
"the subject of entropy."
Yeah, that's my take on 'Fractal matter' anyway. Entropy's a powerful fundamental force of nature. It destroys the simple and the complex. And is ultimately what shapes... Everything. Although complexity can be achieved at the cost of simplicity elsewhere(And Vice Versa).
"nature as a mind of it's own."
I've referred to nature as a mind in the past, but as a metaphor to try to explain creativity and abiogenisis to 'Intelligent Design' proponents.
V
"Spiritual feelings' evolve and are combinations of multiple feelings/senses."
Sure.
But as you must know, many physical traits (Such as skin or hair pigmentation) involve not one, but a number of genes to manifest. Skin colour isn't simply an "on/off" of a single gene. There are many involved. Perhaps the gene controlling VMAT-2 could be thought of in the same manner.
"more an argument FOR"
Just like how "static universe" adherents claim the Big-Bang implies Creation? (Which it does not.)
@MindfulFuture
"no one" -really?
Three opponents are listed in that particular article. That's hardly a consensus. One of which is a theologan. It's no surprise that there would be criticism from that particular camp. Seeing how Hamer is trying to quantify spirituality.
"false, according to Wiki" -Uncertain. Not false. I'm just putting the info out there in an unbiased manner.
Is it so hard to believe that spirituality may be inherited? I'm not ready to rule that out.
Cheers.
Thank you I did enjoy your video and as a skeptic and a atheist I'm glad you brought up secular humanism, because when conservatives bring up the atheist religion this is it, a belief system of idealogical values.
I'm a social conservative(but moderate economic) Republican and secular humanism is exactly why atheism is more than just disbelief.
Turn your skepticism to progressive social values (n even economic if you like) and ask hard questions.
The answers may surprise you ...
@MikeDecipher
Well, I suppose there is no indication as to whether it is or isn't.
But if God wanted us to have free will, why are our brains hardwired for spirituality and the supernatural? Certain parts of the brain become highly excited during prayer (Focus), whereas other parts diminish(sense of self). This predisposition towards spirituality pretty much forces people to believe.... Something supernatural.
There's also an apparent genitc factor, known as the 'GOD GENE' which controls
VV
@Mike I've gone from:
Roman Catholic 12y
Agnostic 3y
Pantheist 3y
Atheist 14y
Now, somewhere between arrogant-atheist and antitheist. \=)
By Cosmic Religion I assume you mean a)Agnostocism, or b)Pantheism.
Which means either;
a) A god exists but is unknowable, or
b) The universe IS god.
While I don't hold either of these beliefs as true, I do have respect for these positions. Their views tend not to lean towards hostility. And they needn't compromise anything to maintain their belief.
@MacLeamh p.s. I understand your local circumstances are different, so my angle might not work as well in that case, point taken.
I subscribed to FreeThinker for our shared interests, science, humanism, and philosophy within those realms. Personally i'd rather see him post some Feynman or so, not the tired old Atheist-Theist debates, usually stirring up anger between different sides :)
@MacLeamh Ok, i made these terms up as i wrote along, but to me a non-culture atheist would be a person where his/her atheism isn't a conscious part of daily life.
Throughout Germany, even in the more conservative south, i have never been confronted by theists, it really is handled as a personal matter. Left alone, it is measurably fading everywhere, and confrontation would (imo) only serve to revive it on the grounds of tribalism. Hence my call for "letting it go".
"Religion is a mind-virus"
Hmm, I like that. Spread from parent to child before the child's immune system develops(The age of reason). Then the mind-virus comprimises the individual's reason, letting them to propagate it further.
Beauty in atheism?
The very stars died for us in unimaginable explosions, we are born from stardust.
Yet we are nothing but motes in the grandness of the universe. I think this acceptance grants greater perspective, and humility. Reason has elevated us from squallor.
@MacLeamh Ask the cultural atheists with their shows and merchandise, i guess they just want to socialize over of their common dislike. I don't expect it to make them, or those they confront, happy; that's my criticism.
To me the sensual/emotional life is the only thing that could give reason any value, so yeah, i'll take the emotions and employ reason as best as i can, when i serves them.
I find it curious that many ex-believers seem to stick around atheism. Instead of being freed, they invest into building a social counter-culture. Atheism is empty, a non-property and can thus be left behind and forgotten immediately. So in my eyes these "positive atheists" can't let go of religion or god. A physics organization might be neat, an "atheist" one is ridiculous.
If religion infringes on human affairs, criticize it using appropriate means (law, emotion, reason, etc.)
@MikeDecipher
"The Mandelbrot set"
OMG. I was just thinking about this the other day!
"if the information within the essence of matter has a fractal nature"
That's kind of what I believe, that matter has a natural tendency to become more complex to a certain equilibrium point.
But, by it's nature, we could examine this function for eternity, and always see something new.
He certainly makes atheism sexy, but I'm not certain that proselytizing is a good idea. Since atheism is not a religion, why should it mimic the loathsome tactics of religion? It is fine to think critically and express criticism, but using seduction and the appeal of the bandwagon doesn't seem consistent with the ideals of critical thinking and intellectual honesty.
@MikeDecipher
I'd say that's a healthy open viewpoint. Each faith does have some wisdom to offer, They should all be digested with a grain of salt.
But I'd say that the binding thread between all these faiths has more to do with our brain chemistry than it does with the divine or supernatural.
all religious people are actually looking for a parent figure ... right ... how about you do some reading into to the works of some people who actually have a clue on issues of human psychology and the social/political impact of religion. Marx might be a good start.
@rrraul21
As long as believing doesn't involve ramming those beliefs down anyone else's throat, judging others, blinding oneself from the truth, inciting xenophobia, hatred, or extremism...
Nothing at all. =)
@MindfulFuture
My, it seems you really disagree with that point. Just saying what I know about the subject. It was a postulation put forth by Dr. Dean H. Hamer, involving a study of 1000 people or so, unless I'm mistaken.
@Azotadeth
I agree, but I like beef and pork. Don't really see how not eating them is wisdom of any kind.
I was refering to things such as "don't murder" but that should be self evident.
Stop it!! You are making sense!
Great video, thanks for sharing.
@MindfulFuture
Yes. It isn't a widely accepted correlation. You'll notice I used the words "Apparent, and tends" when first mentioning this topic.
@HaleyMorganB Well... I don't drink or smoke, but all the XXX implies is that "Goblin" was taken as a username. (And I like the Porno.)
Very well spoken, fav'ed.
@GRIZZLYINC
If you follow the bible, and believe Jesus is god. Then you are a Christian. That's a religion.
@MokomaSusi
I guess that was a joke?
heeeh =]
No good can come from unwarranted arbitrary hatred.
Very smart young man!
Assuming "chance" or "god" are the only two options is short-sighted, at best, and willfully ignorant at worse.
FreeThinker shows many peoples works, some better than others. You didn't like this one? Fine. Your problem.
Science proves what is natural process, not "mind programming." You make a leap from one concept to another, inserting a "conclusion" you LIKE.
Panorama? What a joke.
i dont beleave in religion at all i belive in God.. theres is a deference. people that beleave in religion oftern ague about wuts right or wrong but if yu beleave in god yu tend to be on a deferent level..yu folow the bible and wuts in it..when i say god i speak of jesus...now i realy dont have much time but if yu wish to have a chart with me about that visit my charnet and will will have a litle chart about it have a bless day sire
@sil3ntmode Life seems to be the exact same as it seems with, or without any god or gods. Actually, the world and life would be MUCH worse if most of the world's gods truly existed. You ever heard of a human on a power trip? How about a god with natural super-natural abilities on a power trip? Most of these gods that humans have created mirrored their own petty prejudices and poor moral behaviour (especially Yahweh of the bible, in his obsession with genocide as the answer to most problems).
@ChocolateyChocobo13 A different approach to religion than "mine or nothing", is appreciated. Admiting you may be wrong is all atheists want religious people to admit. We would have no reason to be "against" religion if religion didn't always encourage the religious to be "against" everything not part of that religion. Theists come in all kinds, and we already know the various reasons why they choose to believe. It's the discrimination and ignorance to scientific reality that we question most.
I just know some christian is gonna take the "make it sexier, more enticing, more attractive, more seductive" part of this video and make some sort of claim about Satan. But other than those not-quite-best-to-use words, i agree with what you have to say. Religion throws filth on so many non-filthy things and ideas and it's so hard to wash it off, and convince people that those are not the filthy things, but to look to those who throw the filth - they have a massive supply to work with...
I love it when I come across the moderate voices of atheism. The fundamentalist (or inflexible) atheists are the ones at the front line blasting away at the religious stormtroopers. There are a lot of each on YT. As I'm also a pacifist, I'm hoping reason prevails and Right replaces Might. I want to be in the second sibilant wave; to be with the moderates who come along after the battle with calming hands saying 'Shush now shushhh, it's alright, everythings going be ok, c'mere, listen to this....
Taking responsibility may be scary at first, but it is such an awesome feeling when you have overcome obstacles on your own. It is great to know that you have control over your own life and behavior. I have been much happier since I stopped years ago, praying for forgiveness or praying for something to happen. It is so empowering when I make things happen for myself. Your video was great.
@ZullGostnu2 That doesn't make any sense. To refer to the state as a replacement for a false idol. How is voting and being a part of a civic duty or involvement in politics compare to superstition? You make no sense to me. I'm trying to understand you, but your not coming form statistics or citing your information from real truths. You are stating an opinion... Morals are just a label on a behavior. Norms are normal in one society and not normal in another, based on culture.
@ZullGostnu2 Where did you get this opinion that "most atheists" and the state, are you talking about communism? The political focus on government? That's a loopy thought with no baring on reality. Secularism isn't defined the way you believe, look it up on the on line dictionary to end your confusion. This man on this vlog didn't talk about morals, it was never a subject. Arbitrarily deciding? Take a psychology course. Your culture influences you.
OKAHYy. A priest is like a used car salesman. He claims to have a 57 chevy mint conditions 120 miles on the clock, for sale. Only 99,50,
All there are to see is an empty spot, no car.
Then he claims the invisible chevy don´t need any gas and can take you to the moon.
All I has to do is pray.
Give him your 99,50 and he´ll say. Now, start praying. If you are not at the moon by tomorrow, you wasn´t praying hard enough. OMG.
Love the video, but I do think it's a shame to lump "conspiracy theories" as things that are antithetical to being a good "skeptic."
When this is said about conspiracy theories, what it really means is "trust your government." "Trust the coporations, they would never lie."
"Don't stir up any trouble." "Be a good conformist."
Being a skeptic means being skeptical of potentially ANY thing that appears to be incorrect. Not just the "publicly approved" things.
@ASKaPHYSICIST What's so off about the claim that the religious (or those who choose to think they need a god) aren't seeking some parent figure? It makes perfect sense as being one of the various reasons religious people think the way they do despite all the pretty obvious evidence against what they believe.
heye not becuz it is clasyfied as a religion that yu must think that i beleave its a religion.. the system that decleared it not me..once again i beleave in jesus. so since yu belive in atheism would yu like if i say thats yur religion even though yu dont go to any athiest church.. uh ..
@SacredSocietyAP Conversation is a good thing, you can call it a good car sale pitch... but it's just conversation. Why tell anyone about my vacation or the great hike I just went on? According to you, it might upset them or put stress on them and make you want to do those things. Besides I didn't promise you anything you couldn't have or achieve. Just an opportunity to have a little sweeter life. I never knew how sweet it was, until I found it.
@decemberbenjamin You ask, " Why do you even need religious faith to have an everyday life?" I suppose you're right, you don't need religious faith to have an everyday life. But that's my point, who wants an everyday life when one could have a more fulfilled life? I suppose you don't need religion to live; just like you don't need cake to enjoy life, but cake can make life a little sweeter. You have the power to create your life! choose wisely.
@decemberbenjamin Do you know what they say when you " Assume"? I never went to church till I was 20 years old my dad was a Agnostic and my Mon never practiced any religion. U say, "people get away with it too" Nobody gets away with anything. This is a cause and effect universe, that is a Law unto itself. Everyone is dealt the effects of their choices. If religion bring comfort and positive growth to an individual, then they are right to pursue it and experience that which enhances their lives.
@zuj1984science has demonstrated through big bang models that energy is eternal..suggesting the universe does not need a supernatural creator...i myself am living proof that parts of the universe can exist without god...why does it have to have a ghostly spirit behind it all...maybe "god" is really just everywhere and everything within and around us..no supernatural means neccesary
@216trixie Let me ask you this...
Who wrote the tanakh? Was it the perfect lord...or imperfect people? Also, what are the points of these stories? Just like the myths of ancient Greece...did Zues really gut his father? Wouldn't that be barbaric? But didn't the story in a sense have a reason besides an awsome blood gore thing...?
Your pretty knowledgeable about the Tanakh...may i ask how if it isn't too personal?;p
@216trixie Why regardless of his motives? It is his job to punish and reward his people, is it not? So why would his motives not count in a punishment? Parents also punish their children...though G-d's punishments were on a grander scale, his situation was also much different.
Oh, and yes...rape was not out of norm back then. Thats what you did when you raided a village, or when your neighbor killed your goat...etc....
@216trixie But why are these things wrong? (Keep in mind that i'm taking a logical/nuetral standpoint and not expressing my own feelings here;p)
Back then such things were perfectly alright in certain situations.
Keep in mind that at the time "eye for an eye" was the norm logic.
Also, who said G-d never changes? He's G-d...
What makes you think that G-D can't learn and accidently do wrong like us either? Look at the great flood..
@216trixie Like the trials of Job...kinda...right?
He was a good man, and G-D tested him. Was the punishment he received just? But also remember that no matter what pain he endured here, in heaven he'd be rewarded 10 fold. Of course, i wouldn't be so presumptous as to assume what the lord thought, but it's a possibility...
Was every animal guilty of the snake's crime? Yet, they lost the ability to speak none the less...is that justice?
@216trixie
As for 12:11, i see it now;p I would just like to point out a couple things to you on the subject.
1)Women were property to men at the time. Made from man's flesh and 2nd only to men.
2)This was punishment to David for doing the same to someone else.
Also keep in mind that perhaps G-D had other motives than this. Would you kill one to save 100? Perhaps that was his thinking? Punish some to teach many.
@216trixie
Why isn't what he wants to do ok...? Obviously humans shouldn't do that but...i mean...reasons are obvious there.
But why can't G-D? I mean...he defines right and wrong, and law and order...so if he says murder is right...
Thankfully he doesn't define it as right though. Where does G-D murder or abort or even rape? I mean "murder" too, not kill out of justice.
@216trixie By the way, since you read over the bible you should know this. Everyone on earth at the time was evil, even Noah, though he was the least evil. They were sinners and blasphemers and it sickened G-D. But you forget that G-D is our creater, hence he can do whatever he wants, regardless of how we feel about it. It was through his will that we gained the ability ot think, and through his will we gained the ability to sin. If he wishes to end the process though through destruction...
@216trixie You sure it is 2:12...i looked in the tenakh and it doesn't say that, though it talks about a battle to come.
You forget my friend that just because you have morales now that killing period is wrong, back then, they might not of been. ALso, G-D isn't limited to our human values...perhaps we are wrong and this "geoncide" you are talking about is actually justice. If you give me the book,etc i can try to find it, though i am only 16 and i haven't memorized the torah;p
@216trixie
But you seem to be confusing murder and genocide with just punishment. G-D didn't order mass genocide, but he punished the helpless sinners and at the same time he re-created the world in a sense.
Also, he doesn't "order" his children to commit murder or anything, though he does tell them to defend themselves a couple times. Back then killing for defence or honor was just. It possibly still is to G-D, who knows.
@L00NGB00W
So do I, indeed.
There is wisdom when there can be a lot more benefit from a living cow (milk, transport and great compost f.ex) than from a dead one.
There is wisdom not to want pigs when you live in the desert and have limited water and other resources, so they wont compete for your resources, crops or those of your other animals. Plus when reduced to that enviroment they are quite filthy tbh.
And yeah, "dont murder" (except infidels = outsiders) is a basic for social order.
@L00NGB00W
"Each faith does have some wisdom to offer"
Usually true.
This is why mulsims dont eat pig and hindus dont kill and eat cows for example.
In the end, religion was just the best way to mantain social order for millenia. Its reasoning sunk into the common and ignorant folk easily.
It also provided a higher "unbreakable" authority (god) and higher reward for obeying it (heaven).
Until barely a hundred years ago kings were still said to be appointed by god for very much these reasons.
@stefenski
I do fail to see how religion is comprised of individual expression (or viceversa) when it is based on dogmatic memes passed down for generations mostly reinforced by a community sharing these and basing this very community on these near-unchanging premises.
As for "intuitive truth" that could be discussed in length, and you would have to change "truth" for "notion" so that many of us would ever come to an agreement, if you know what I mean.
Great ideas unless you are alone in a sea of conspiracy and stupidity like in NW Georgia (US).
When you are alone and have had to endure the looks, comments and job loses, hypocrisy and scandal you can become slightly bitter.
There is nothing positive about having to fight for you and your children's sanity.
I'll be positive when I don't have to fight so hard every day and am not confronted with religion everywhere I go. It is there when I change my oil, go to the doctors or vets, everywhere.
As much as I love watching videos about this stuff I can't help but think "yeah this has been argued for a loooong time now." There isn't going to be any ground gained between the current schism of Theists vs Atheists. People will believe what they want to, you can't take that away. You shouldn't take that away. And this goes to both Atheists and Theists, not bashing this nice guy's viewpoint. But I anticipate that this comment will be misinterpreted and flamed anyway.
As a child youre taught that there's this all powerful, loving being guiding you through life to eternal paradise and obviously this is a nice thing so people become attached to it. It becomes their way of escape from all the problems their lives bring and when the time comes, the time when your knowledge, logic and beliefs clash even though your logic is saying that it is not very likely, you dismiss your logic because your so comfortable with your religion.
@MikeDecipher Thanks for the reply. I see where you are coming from. If I had more space I would explain in detail. See Science, Reason and Compassion working in balance. Science can be cold and often brutal. Compassion counteracts the solid and stoic elements of the scientific method. The guiding principle would be the use of Reason between the two. Likewise, Compassion can be counter-productive in certain circumstances. The use of Reason is then implemented.
No doubt that a positive position is needed within the atheist community. But no matter how you package it, it is still an affront the very foundation of the way they see the world and will be instinctively met with blind opposition. Being "demoralizing", or an "angry atheist" (as I call some) only serves to accelerate that instinctive response.
My point is that if any dialogue becomes confrontational, both sides have already lost. :S
@terminaldeity I don't think cherry pickers often fail acknowledge the existence of certain passages, they usually insist the simply don't say what they say.
Example: Exodus 21-17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."
This passage really just means be good to Mom and Dad and anyone saying otherwise is taking it out of context or doesn't understand that death was different in those days.
That's cherry picking.
@myjizzureye Its mesmerizing, sort of like a guy with a lazy eye or a woman with a mustache. Like the dude with the mole in Austin Powers. Just cant process anything he is saying cause I'm picturing whole hunks of corn getting stuck in there. I'm sure he is making excellent points but when i watch my brain is just going...tooth gap tooth gap tooth gap...holy shit look at that massive TOOTH GAP. I just want to poke at it while looking around saying FUCKING LOOK AT THAT, LOOK RIGHT AT IT.
@JonO387 Your comment was useless, it was pointed out to you and now you're having a hissy fit. I need to grow up. Sure bud. Whatever makes you feel better. Next time just admit you had nothing to say or put nothing in the first place. There is more dignity. Don't bother trying to come back with more excuses. You'll just look even more lame than you all ready are. You where trying to be a hot shot by putting someone else down. THAT is childish. Bye.
@terminaldeity You seem to think the term "cherry picking" is some sort of insult. It is not. It merely means being selective.
So one reads the Bible as a book of varying philosophies written by different people some of which you like and some of which you don't then, of course, being called selective shouldn't be considered an indictment by anyone.
But a Fundie Christian who posits God wrote it and still tries to weasel out of certain passages then he's a hypocrite for picking.
The religious seem to look at atheism as a life void of meaning; if there is no "god", life is meaningless / pointless / dark...however, this is a misinterpretation of how most atheists perceive life. Yes, the common atheist's perspective of life is that it is inherently meaningless; not in a "hopeless" sense, but in what I refer to as a sort of "blank-slate" or "easel" meaningless. This is a matter of existentialism vs non-existentialism; Pulp Fiction is an excellent portrayal of the concept.
@Kreadus005 Mandate? What makes you think we need a mandate to decide on ideals? Why is it only concerning morals that we must understand the source of our oughts?
I don't know of anyone worried about the source of our universally held belief that exercise is good or not poor grooming is bad.
The source of all our values including our morals are products of our culture which are learned not mandated.
@terminaldeity Cherry picking refers to the act of taking only the cherries that suit you and not every one on the tree. So how is picking the parts of the Bible that suit you not accurately referred to as cherry picking?
It's only preceived as an insult when you aim it at those who swear they believe the whole Bible is the infallible Word of Gawd and then proceed to pick and choose.
I don't see why anyone who actually thinks it's ok be selective would object to the term.
Regarding how people picking the parts of the Bible that suit their beliefs, I don't really see how this is an issue. The Bible had many different authors so it stands to reason that each author is going to inject his own morality. Hence certain belief systems will adhere closer to different parts of the Bible. It's not really cherry picking when the book itself is so contradictory.
One issue with Secular Humanism is the moral is-ought problem, which some people answer with nihilism. While instinct and biology can point to what humans do as a matter of course from biology -- this doesn't fit into what people consider morality to be (you ought not to eat your young).
And while s.h. may indicate other oughts -- from whence does it get the mandate?
(I prefer moral fallibism as a response, but it feels weak).
@captwasabi Of course. I was merely confused with your wording in a previous comment, is all.
Anything that limits free personal beliefs causes some measure of violence. Whenever power is in the hands of a minority with different views of the populace at large, that minority view tends to leak onto the masses. Even non-religious ideas (though this isn't an amazing analogy) like speech patterns--Spanish lisps in Spain (Castillian) arising from the lisp of a ruler.
@captwasabi So he was both fulfilling God's will via the tutelage of long dead Martin Luther and going against it when actually carrying out the deed of exterminating Jews?
His religious background is relevant to his actions because of the reasons he gives for his actions in his book, Mein Kampf. Using a bastardization of natural selection combined with religious rhetoric, he gave excuses for his actions which refocused Germany's pursuits in fending for themselves at the expense of the Jews.
@captwasabi I would argue that many crimes are driven by many reasons. Religions and creed, power, racism all play a part. In other words I completely agree with you, except its not just religion. I have just read some essays by Xians that absolutely made me want to vomit. Like I said referingt to "who killed who" and simplifying it as "religion or non religion" is well an over simplification of the political situation and individuals involved in the killing. There are too many variables
@captwasabi People who refer to Hitler etc are intellectually dishonest.
Hitler was a vegetarian ... it proves NOTHING.
We could make lists of bad people who were supposedly Atheist or Theist and go around in circles and this proves NOTHING.
Religion doesn't have ownership on morality./ Morality is independent of religion.
Morality often isn't independent on the historical deveolpemnt of morality, but that is a different question. NEXT
@OddityDK
Quite funny. We, the atheists, are supposed to be intelligent, skeptics, truthseekers and apparently quite a few of us have trouble reading and comprehending 10 lines of text. To all those calling me an idiot or trying to explain evolution, big bang etc. to me..How about you try reading my comment again. I should have used Quote-marks, I realise that, but come on, it wasn't that hard to understand.
@captwasabi Exactly what you said. All one has to do is read the psychoanalysis of Adolf Hitler to see he was extremely religious. He believed that in World War I he was spared because of an act of Divine Intervention and that God had a plan for him (which basically convinced him to not be reserved in his opinions and racism). As you said, Stalin killed because of his paranoia and lust for power, not because he was atheist.
I reject, as Hitchens might say, the grammar of your question. There is no need to replace the subsequent absence of irrationality with anything.
Indeed, I think it can simplified further.
What are we left with when we remove religion: curiosity.
When the sheep are able to think for themselves, unfettered by primitive superstitions, the wonder and awe of the universe really begin.
I rather think of relegion as being like the appendix. You're kinda born with it, it's generally useless, but mostly harmless. Of course once it starts threatening your life, it's time to cut that sucker out!