I like using their failure to move them to another part of the story like the mine collapses now you have to escape the underdark. I've started being more dynamic with the world since finding your channel also love the new scale with neutral
I think maybe getting a Nat 20 would give the next player advantage. You did so well on your skill challenge that you made the job easier for the next person. But it would be the same for Nat 1s where the next player would get disadvantage because you just screwed up so badly that it negatively effects the next person in line. But it wouldn't necessarily give you two failures or two successes. Maybe the Rogue with a plus 14 to Stealth gets a Nat 1, alerting the guard and making the job harder for the next person. But because the Rogue had a plus 14, the roll counts as a 15 which is a success. So the Rogue successfully sneaks past the guard but the guard is now alert, giving the next player disadvantage.
A twist on the infinite failures thing, I use a meter of "Risk". Risk increases after each Round and after each failure. Risk scales the DC and consequence per round. Using your powers, Spell slots, or "Help" can be a lot more powerful to handle this escalation now, while making sure they can't take their time too much. Another type of challenge I like is the idea of a "contest challenge", where you need more successes than opposition after three rounds, but with a catch of "Favor". Favor is a status that can be passed or scrambled for, giving an extra die on checks and granting an extra Success at the end of the challenge. I think the "favor" adds a nice layer of depth and drama, whether uses for a pursuit, election, fashion show, team vs team paintball, etc. Another fun way to raise stakes or drama is either set the third round or add a fourth round where that final round provides double victory points. Lastly a fun thing to consider is giving Warriors a bonus that 19s count for critical in Attack and Saving Throws for Skill Challenge, and Experts count their 19s for Critical in their Expertise Skill in the Skill Challenge.
Back when you first introduced skill challenges. I tried kind of a reverse infinite failures! It was a sci fi system, and the party's ship was crashing. They were going to crash no matter what, but every sucess just lowered the damage they took at the end. (When they failed 3 times)
The new 5.5E/1DD Exhaustion mechanic means you could use exhaustion as a price for failure (say for travelling), and while it penalizes players a couple levels aren't brutal.
Two thoughts: 1. When I run a skill challenge, you have to use skills you’re proficient in first. Even if it’s a stretch. 2. What if the neutral range is based in party proficiency bonus? Then it increases as they level up. Which seems appropriate.
Recently ran a skill challenge where the PC's entered into the territory of an colossal scorpion and a hive of giant scorpions, which was once giant ants territory, hill and tunnels. They had to make their way through the territory and the creatures were to many and tough for a combat. The challenge was to run through the area without getting murderized. The first failure, I had the ground underfoot to give way and crash down into an old tunnel creating a ravine on the surface. PC's fell into ravine, taking damage, and the scorpions were swarming in towards them. The second failure, the PC's received several hits from stings (receiving the poisoned condition for 1 round) as they attempted to flee the ravine back to the original ground level. The final push was to make it past the massive abandoned ant hill tower, they noticed that the tremors from the colossal scorpion was causing the 'hill' to sway and if they could make the distance and potentially make the "hill" to topple the debris would cause the scorpions to cease pursuit. They failed, the massive ant hill toppled before they were completely past. Tossed about and buried they were able to dig out and noticed the pursuit has ceased but they also noticed that a bag of jewels they had was lost somewhere in the sands. Through the entire challenge, if they were clever in the the skill used or utilized a spell to aid them, they would gain advantage on a the skill roll. It was a hard challenge and they lost the challenge by 1 roll. One player rolled very poorly two rounds in a row. It gets players to look deeply into their skills more after running a skill challenge. instead of being another stat on a sheet, they can begin thinking on how to use them more.
Great to see an “old fashioned” DC video with some new home brew ideas! I’ve used the infinite fail SC idea before: Hey, you keep trying and it keeps hurting until you finally succeed! Have done it with a random encounter on each F during travel. Have done it with a roll on a DM-made table of setbacks during a city exploration. Highest stakes was during a one-shot, climax skill challenge of 1st level PC’s (and NPC’s) trying to capture and tame a roc… on each F, somebody DIES! My players loved the challenge every time. Tense exciting creative moments!!
On a 1-5 failure in your example, instead of 2 failed checks against the PC's, you could give a penalty to the next PC's roll or have some other event take place like damage, saving throw vs?, or they lose a success (or need to achieve an extra) etc.
I like your idea of needing to achieve an additional success on a 1-5 roll. That way the DM isn't taking a success away, but the failure "moved the goalposts" as it were. Especially if there's a time limit, that would really ratchet up the urgency
I have long ago moved to a 'sliding scale' to resolve all skill challenges. Combined with a dynamic environment (Something I learned to be good with from Fate), it makes for an interesting situation. It's also a good way to mesh different systems... For example: I had the players in a Hurricane on a ship as they were traveling to their destination. None of them were actually part of the crew, but there were things they could do that would both help the ship itself... And themselves. All but two of them ended up going overboard in the storm in the end and the ship ran aground on an island... But they all survived. Each one had a very different condition though and it led into a new challenge as they were split up and had to find their way back together while recovering from injuries and trying to survive.
Love the neutral fail. In general, the skill challenges I've run have been over too fast, right about when my players are hitting their stride its over. :-) This could let me sneak in another lair action. Bwa ha ha ha. Thanks Coach
Hmmm . . . That's a cool idea, it'd be like having two skill challenges running parallel; one to achieve successes and one to remove failures. I could see the party deciding who is best suited for each challenge
This is actually how I've run skill challenges since I started DMing though its more loose and I still struggle to decide on how to rule it sometimes. Having these set windows +5 or -3 is very helpful. There could still be issues like saying your party is traveling and one of the things they decide to do for the skill challenge is to have someone forage for food and they roll "neutral/wash" does that mean they get nothing which would be a fail, or do they get one fruit which would be a success? (for one person) I suppose that means the challenge keeps going and they get nothing yet but you say they are on the trail of some food and they have to roll something else in order to acquire it. Like they found it but its really high up on a tall tree and requires climbing with athletics checks to get to the fruit.
Oooh! I got a new variant idea. Dynamic failures; the middle ground from the Infinite and 3. So -- You would have a soft cap fail at 3, of course. That would trigger the failure state/consequence you want to happen. But, like with how that guy in one of your skill check vids did a whole prep phase and stuff, you have the chance to rack up more fails. So what if 3 gets the main fail, but you could go to 1-3 more fails with further ramifications that reach further. Like my players are running a sting operation on the local tannery in the city they're in, as it is a front for one of the bases of this region's drug cartel. Maybe at 3 failures, the main guy gets away, so they have no chance to yet learn more about the Cartel's connection to The Black Hand, and now the Cartel knows the LandTalers (faction, think police and adventurer's guild, and mailmen paladins and rangers) are onto them with some adventurers, which is bad news since they can better prep now. But further fails maybe make it where someone escapes and knows what they look like, and what powers they had, so now the enemy has intel. Another fail, reinforcements from the others in town they have in their pocket make their way to the Tannery Last fail, one of them manages to skooma bomb their strong npc companion as they turn off their (illegal) antimagic device, thus letting the previously thrown bottles on the ground to activate with the oxygen, letting off the deadly skooma clouds. My players named the drug 😅 It is a magical drug that you inhale and replug the bottle after use. So, in an antimagic field, it stays a liquid. And at that last failure, with skooma clouds around, it is fight time with the reinforcements hehe Of course, they'd need like 8-10 successes, pass a Group Skill Challenge that happens between Prep phase and go phase which if failed adds a fail, and then keeping the 1-5 fail is x2.
Thinking on it, I would (and am writing it now lol) make it floating failures that could arise in each part of phases, and as they wrack up, you equip the parts and have compound effects pretty much. Have a few made up that are simpler, and the heftier ones, and you still do the consequence at 3, but leave the others til later that could happen. Like with my skooma bomb on the NPC. It is Farnabell, a character they are close to as well as a Commander in the LTs. So she'll be almost killed from that.
been watching a lot of vid's of DC and love the things he says in Alkander's, most are improved/different versions i have implemented in my own games. Is there a printed/hardcover version or is Alkander's only available in PDF form
1-5 is almost impossibly bad luck or poor decision making. Either of which justifies two failures. On the more brutal end of the scale, you could have 1-5 outright fail the challenge and the successes they've already are all they get to fail forward with.
I like using their failure to move them to another part of the story like the mine collapses now you have to escape the underdark. I've started being more dynamic with the world since finding your channel also love the new scale with neutral
I will do this as well, have failures be an actualy THING that happens to change up how everything is going. I love that!
That’s how I roll
I think maybe getting a Nat 20 would give the next player advantage. You did so well on your skill challenge that you made the job easier for the next person. But it would be the same for Nat 1s where the next player would get disadvantage because you just screwed up so badly that it negatively effects the next person in line. But it wouldn't necessarily give you two failures or two successes. Maybe the Rogue with a plus 14 to Stealth gets a Nat 1, alerting the guard and making the job harder for the next person. But because the Rogue had a plus 14, the roll counts as a 15 which is a success. So the Rogue successfully sneaks past the guard but the guard is now alert, giving the next player disadvantage.
A twist on the infinite failures thing, I use a meter of "Risk". Risk increases after each Round and after each failure. Risk scales the DC and consequence per round. Using your powers, Spell slots, or "Help" can be a lot more powerful to handle this escalation now, while making sure they can't take their time too much.
Another type of challenge I like is the idea of a "contest challenge", where you need more successes than opposition after three rounds, but with a catch of "Favor". Favor is a status that can be passed or scrambled for, giving an extra die on checks and granting an extra Success at the end of the challenge. I think the "favor" adds a nice layer of depth and drama, whether uses for a pursuit, election, fashion show, team vs team paintball, etc. Another fun way to raise stakes or drama is either set the third round or add a fourth round where that final round provides double victory points.
Lastly a fun thing to consider is giving Warriors a bonus that 19s count for critical in Attack and Saving Throws for Skill Challenge, and Experts count their 19s for Critical in their Expertise Skill in the Skill Challenge.
Back when you first introduced skill challenges. I tried kind of a reverse infinite failures!
It was a sci fi system, and the party's ship was crashing.
They were going to crash no matter what, but every sucess just lowered the damage they took at the end. (When they failed 3 times)
Yup
So helpful. I have to plan a non magical trapped lair and this helped a lot. I cannot wait to get my book in the mail.
The new 5.5E/1DD Exhaustion mechanic means you could use exhaustion as a price for failure (say for travelling), and while it penalizes players a couple levels aren't brutal.
Two thoughts:
1. When I run a skill challenge, you have to use skills you’re proficient in first. Even if it’s a stretch.
2. What if the neutral range is based in party proficiency bonus? Then it increases as they level up. Which seems appropriate.
I like the neutral range that neither helps nor hinders the challenge. Ratcheting the tension could provide some great narrative content.
Not too much, they get desensitized
Recently ran a skill challenge where the PC's entered into the territory of an colossal scorpion and a hive of giant scorpions, which was once giant ants territory, hill and tunnels. They had to make their way through the territory and the creatures were to many and tough for a combat. The challenge was to run through the area without getting murderized.
The first failure, I had the ground underfoot to give way and crash down into an old tunnel creating a ravine on the surface. PC's fell into ravine, taking damage, and the scorpions were swarming in towards them. The second failure, the PC's received several hits from stings (receiving the poisoned condition for 1 round) as they attempted to flee the ravine back to the original ground level. The final push was to make it past the massive abandoned ant hill tower, they noticed that the tremors from the colossal scorpion was causing the 'hill' to sway and if they could make the distance and potentially make the "hill" to topple the debris would cause the scorpions to cease pursuit.
They failed, the massive ant hill toppled before they were completely past. Tossed about and buried they were able to dig out and noticed the pursuit has ceased but they also noticed that a bag of jewels they had was lost somewhere in the sands. Through the entire challenge, if they were clever in the the skill used or utilized a spell to aid them, they would gain advantage on a the skill roll. It was a hard challenge and they lost the challenge by 1 roll. One player rolled very poorly two rounds in a row.
It gets players to look deeply into their skills more after running a skill challenge. instead of being another stat on a sheet, they can begin thinking on how to use them more.
Great to see an “old fashioned” DC video with some new home brew ideas!
I’ve used the infinite fail SC idea before: Hey, you keep trying and it keeps hurting until you finally succeed! Have done it with a random encounter on each F during travel. Have done it with a roll on a DM-made table of setbacks during a city exploration. Highest stakes was during a one-shot, climax skill challenge of 1st level PC’s (and NPC’s) trying to capture and tame a roc… on each F, somebody DIES! My players loved the challenge every time. Tense exciting creative moments!!
On a 1-5 failure in your example, instead of 2 failed checks against the PC's, you could give a penalty to the next PC's roll or have some other event take place like damage, saving throw vs?, or they lose a success (or need to achieve an extra) etc.
So 1 failure plus a negative consequence (like increased DC or damage or whatever)? I kinda like that better too.
I like your idea of needing to achieve an additional success on a 1-5 roll. That way the DM isn't taking a success away, but the failure "moved the goalposts" as it were. Especially if there's a time limit, that would really ratchet up the urgency
This is great! Always love hearing your variant rules!! Thanks coach!!!
@2:47 of course there is an AWESOME chase sequence in AAA. Get the PDF if you are not on board yet.
These are good ideas, thank you.
I have long ago moved to a 'sliding scale' to resolve all skill challenges. Combined with a dynamic environment (Something I learned to be good with from Fate), it makes for an interesting situation. It's also a good way to mesh different systems... For example:
I had the players in a Hurricane on a ship as they were traveling to their destination. None of them were actually part of the crew, but there were things they could do that would both help the ship itself... And themselves. All but two of them ended up going overboard in the storm in the end and the ship ran aground on an island... But they all survived. Each one had a very different condition though and it led into a new challenge as they were split up and had to find their way back together while recovering from injuries and trying to survive.
Love the neutral fail. In general, the skill challenges I've run have been over too fast, right about when my players are hitting their stride its over. :-) This could let me sneak in another lair action. Bwa ha ha ha. Thanks Coach
You can KEEP the failures at 3, but include a mechanism of using an action for REMOVING a failure. Maybe set that DC at 20.
Hmmm . . . That's a cool idea, it'd be like having two skill challenges running parallel; one to achieve successes and one to remove failures. I could see the party deciding who is best suited for each challenge
The infinite failures rule is definitely a really interesting one! Imma have to try that out
Some good ideas there
I’ve been known to call for a check, any check
This is actually how I've run skill challenges since I started DMing though its more loose and I still struggle to decide on how to rule it sometimes. Having these set windows +5 or -3 is very helpful. There could still be issues like saying your party is traveling and one of the things they decide to do for the skill challenge is to have someone forage for food and they roll "neutral/wash" does that mean they get nothing which would be a fail, or do they get one fruit which would be a success? (for one person) I suppose that means the challenge keeps going and they get nothing yet but you say they are on the trail of some food and they have to roll something else in order to acquire it. Like they found it but its really high up on a tall tree and requires climbing with athletics checks to get to the fruit.
And it is revealed that WotC is pulling out of OGL.
D&D One will not allow any homebrew.
Oooh! I got a new variant idea.
Dynamic failures; the middle ground from the Infinite and 3. So -- You would have a soft cap fail at 3, of course. That would trigger the failure state/consequence you want to happen.
But, like with how that guy in one of your skill check vids did a whole prep phase and stuff, you have the chance to rack up more fails. So what if 3 gets the main fail, but you could go to 1-3 more fails with further ramifications that reach further.
Like my players are running a sting operation on the local tannery in the city they're in, as it is a front for one of the bases of this region's drug cartel.
Maybe at 3 failures, the main guy gets away, so they have no chance to yet learn more about the Cartel's connection to The Black Hand, and now the Cartel knows the LandTalers (faction, think police and adventurer's guild, and mailmen paladins and rangers) are onto them with some adventurers, which is bad news since they can better prep now.
But further fails maybe make it where someone escapes and knows what they look like, and what powers they had, so now the enemy has intel.
Another fail, reinforcements from the others in town they have in their pocket make their way to the Tannery
Last fail, one of them manages to skooma bomb their strong npc companion as they turn off their (illegal) antimagic device, thus letting the previously thrown bottles on the ground to activate with the oxygen, letting off the deadly skooma clouds.
My players named the drug 😅
It is a magical drug that you inhale and replug the bottle after use. So, in an antimagic field, it stays a liquid.
And at that last failure, with skooma clouds around, it is fight time with the reinforcements hehe
Of course, they'd need like 8-10 successes, pass a Group Skill Challenge that happens between Prep phase and go phase which if failed adds a fail, and then keeping the 1-5 fail is x2.
Thinking on it, I would (and am writing it now lol) make it floating failures that could arise in each part of phases, and as they wrack up, you equip the parts and have compound effects pretty much.
Have a few made up that are simpler, and the heftier ones, and you still do the consequence at 3, but leave the others til later that could happen. Like with my skooma bomb on the NPC. It is Farnabell, a character they are close to as well as a Commander in the LTs. So she'll be almost killed from that.
So here's a thought.. What if they want to use one of their class abilities like the Barbarian wants to rage, the Warlock wants to use an Invocation?
been watching a lot of vid's of DC and love the things he says in Alkander's, most are improved/different versions i have implemented in my own games. Is there a printed/hardcover version or is Alkander's only available in PDF form
There WAS one from the KS, but that ended... but the NEXT KS (kickstarter) I do, might have some available! Thanks Aigilas!
Hey DC, I really like hardcovers or even soft covers. Is there any way to get the AAA in either print?
Currently no :( BUT on the next KS, that might be an option depending on how everything goes!
Love this
1-5 is almost impossibly bad luck or poor decision making. Either of which justifies two failures. On the more brutal end of the scale, you could have 1-5 outright fail the challenge and the successes they've already are all they get to fail forward with.