Is a War on Policing Increasing Crime? Q&A with Rafael Mangual
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- Опубліковано 12 чер 2024
- In "Criminal (In)Justice," the Manhattan Institute scholar argues that most reforms favored by social justice activists-and many libertarians-make life worse for communities of color.
0:00 Intro
2:23 Police Violence
7:42 Narrative Disparities
15:32 Stop and Frisk
26:12 Drug Legalization
29:05 Trust in Police
31:30 Leadership and Police
34:31 Qualified Immunity
40:04 Mass Incarceration
47:38 Pre-Trial Detention
51:13 George Kelling
1:04:10 New York City Crime
reason.com/video/2022/10/05/i...
The killings of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor in 2020 touched off a summer of protests over police brutality, especially with regard to African Americans and Hispanics.
To many, the killings cemented as fact a narrative that began with the 2014 death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, and found expression in highly charged slogans such as "all cops are bastards" and "defund the police." Reformers charge that cops, far from keeping the peace, are simply the most visible agents of white supremacy who systematically surveil and punish racial and ethnic minorities. Long-stalled reforms, such as abolishing qualified immunity and ending cash bail, made big gains as massive crowds marched under the banner of Black Lives Matter.
But what if the narrative that police are increasingly dangerous, violent, and unaccountable is wrong?
In Criminal (In)Justice, Rafael A. Mangual argues that police violence is in fact rare and declining. What's more, he says that the criminal justice reforms favored by social justice activists-and many libertarians-will make life worse for communities of color.
"If we're going to have an honest conversation about where reform needs to happen," says Mangual, "we have to be realistic about what the real scope of the problem is because that's the best way that we're going to be able to assess what can actually fix that problem."
Mangual is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, the New York City think tank that played a foundational role in the shift in policing tactics that began in the early 1990s. It published the work of George L. Kelling and James Q. Wilson on broken windows policing and championed the development of the crime-tracking program CompStat under New York City Police Commissioner William Bratton.
Mangual grew up in Brooklyn and Long Island, the half-Dominican, half-Puerto Rican son of a New York Police Department detective. He attended Baruch College in the City University of New York system and holds a law degree from Chicago's DePaul University.
Reason talked with him about the facts and rhetoric surrounding law enforcement, whether violent crime is actually rising, and what the best ways are to keep the peace without harassing and locking up innocent people.
Interview by Nick Gillespie. Edited by Regan Taylor and Adam Czarnecki.
Photo Credits: Aaron Guy Leroux/Sipa USA/Newscom;
Allison Bailey / SOPA Images/Sip/Newscom; Chris, CC BY-SA 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons; Jeremy Hogan/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom; Karla Cot/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom; Marc Arcas/EFE/Newscom; Michael Nigro/Sipa USA/Newscom; Pacific Press/Sipa USA/Newscom; Ron Sachs/CNP / SplashNews/Newscom; Rod Lamkey/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom; Smallbones, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons; Stephen Zenner/ZUMA Press/Newscom; Steve Pellegrino/ZUMA Press/Newscom; TNS/Newscom; YESSICA SANCHEZ Notimex/Newscom; United Archives/Rudolph/Newscom
Music Credits: "Altered Communications, by Emanuele Errante, via Artlist; "Continuance," by Yehezkel Raz, via Artlist.
There was a blatantly obvious counterargument to his claim that qualified immunity is not important because it is barely used in court cases.
Obviously fewer court cases will be filed if the plaintiff is likely to lose due to broad protections given to the police. That was not a valid response and he should have been called out on it.
You have a problem with getting to court even if you are injured while in their care.
You have a point that without it their might be more cases brought. But he specifically said that 4% of current cases are disposed of on qualified immunity grounds, meaning it seemingly isn't used that much.
You never realized how messed up in the mind are these order followers until you actually have to deal with them. They are supposed to protect our CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS not violate them! Most of the order followers don't even know what they swore to uphold! You got a badge and a gun with body armor because they (cops) don't know how to treat people like humans that also feel pain. They have no concerns about your well being. How can you have respect for these government employees.
@George Curious How has using False Dilemma helped you add Truth to your World View?
Much needed discussion. Another must watch is Rafael's interview with Hoover. Rafael and Roland Fryer are a great team together!!
Cops came onto my property with an arrest warrant not search warrant and shot my 2 dogs, reform is needed
To be fair, you were breathing without their permission
@@JeremyPowell-vl9bm Illicit possession of schmeat
They came onto my friend's property because they were "looking for a suspect that went this way" (His house is at a dead end with no egress) and when his dog rushed to the door to see who it was they shot him to death.
@@scurvy77777 Sorry for your loss.
I don't really believe you. But sad if true
I am starting this video after hearing the introduction and I want to keep an open mind but it felt so dismissive. There was a recent SCOTUS case where a mother granted access to police to search her home for a former partner suspected of drug crime. The police destroyed her home with a barrage of tears gas then broke down multiple entry points despite being given a key. She sued for damages but her case was dismissed. That makes me not pleased with law enforcement and I find nothing wrong with wanting accountability for actions like that.
All the people I saw "stopped, questioned, and frisked" were committing criminal trespass and were allowed to leave the area.
just end the drug war.
Not that simple.
Portland decriminalized n huge problem.
@@muskepticsometimes9133 it’s still a black market… decriminalize just empowers black market participants… end the drug war and end the black market all together
@@EVIDENTNEWS really? Doesn't seem to be playing out in places that legalized Marijuana. Been ten years in my State and still a huge black market. If there wasn't taxes and a license associated with legally being able to sell it that might not be the case. And of course a libertarian will argue against those things, but reality is there will be no legalization of drugs without the state regulating and taxing the sale of the drugs.
@@chickenfishhybrid44 well you still have it as a schedule 1 substance which Keeps out banks and financing and many legitimate big companies… not to mention massive taxes and regulation and restrictions…. You don’t see much illegal alcohol sales these days though cause it’s not federally illegal
@@EVIDENTNEWS Don't think people selling on the side right now would be in a legal store if only they weren't scared the Feds are suddenly going to come and get them. I think the banking point is a better argument but theres been work arounds. I still generally support the idea of reforming drug laws. I'm just tired of people acting like all crime and black markets around them will just disappear. I think it's bullshit
Abolish qualified immunity for Pfizer, Moderna, Astrozeneca and J&J and require insurance for those injured.
Here is a perfect example of why virtually no one should have any power over their feIIow man.
Back in 2004 or 2005 time, I was working at a software company and I was in the shipping department sending out software packages. One day 2 postal workers knocked on the door and I opened it and they were getting out a bunch of USPS tote bins out of the dumpster in the back. The company above us used USPS and they went out of business and they took all those tote bins and put them in the dumpster. Well that was government property.
The 2 ladies knocked on my door and asked me if I knew how those bins got in the dumpster. I told them that the company upstairs from us probably threw them away. One lady told me, "Well that is government property. We are going to cancel their account with USPS and we are going to cancel your (me) account too."
I told her she can't do that. She said, "oh yes we can". Then I said, "we don't even have an account with you, we use UPS and Fedex". I shvt the door and went back to work.
Here two women were postal workers and with the tlny blt of power they had, they gladly used it to the fuIIest. Imagine if they had any real power.
"why virtually no one should have any power over their feIIow man." I understand what you're saying but that's pure Libertarian (with a big "L") fantasy not how life works, or has ever worked. Instead we have explicit limits on State powers and a Bill of Rights in combination with a justice system for addressing grievances.
@@bjkarana No it isn't. That's how the USA wrkd for the first 150 years.
@@bjkarana Addressing grievances only happens after someone has committed a crime agalnst you. Not the same thlng as having power over someone.
@@bjkarana Lmao They can Violate your rights and Claim Qualified Immunity they do it all the time they can even lie on the stand and receive 0 repercussions not too mention they create crime to fill Quotas harassing people they wouldn't have looked twice at ordinarily and that's before getting too the people they would look at and harass normally Our current system isn't sustainable and we've known this since the 60s
@@bryanboone7363 literally they were only created to protect the Wealthy's property interests
The mRNA shots were supposed to be be life saving yet not one pharmacy shot it out in the streets with another pharmacy over that market. Legalizing all drugs stops territory disputes.
Weed is legal in CA and yet black market growers and dealers still kill each other. Legalization and regulation will solve a lot of issues with the current Drug War, but you need to be realistic about what it fixes and what it does not fix.
@@bjkarana there’s a reason for that. California, like New York, require expensive dispensary licenses. Here in New York State your license would cost 250K a year. The guy on the street only has to pay his living expenses. The whole legalization of marijuana only passed after the politicians were sure that they would get rich, not a business person. So, up go the territory wars again. It also makes everyone show their ID so they can illegally take any weapons you may own. When my husband was dying from cancer an elderly couple offered him marijuana but it didn’t help for him unfortunately. This is how overbearing our elected supposed representatives are that elderly people church people are the nonviolent unlicensed dispensary. Do you know how gangs were started in the US? They cropped up the second alcohol was illegal. People are dying in the streets and our government offers dispensaries to only the wealthy? Seems like our representatives are just grifters who pay back their largest campaign donors. I’ve never read that in the constitution nor the bill of rights, have you?
@adeline rojas Not my problem that you don't understand the issue. Do your own research.
Very interesting! I really enjoyed the conversations! One point-- it would be better if all parties knew the facts of the cases duscussed
I'm sure the 40ng/dl of phentanyl definitely didn't have anything to do with ol' George's death.
Don't forget the cocaine, cigarettes and weed he was doublefisting to try to even that out.
Nick should interview Chris Surprenant and Jason Brennan, authors of “Injustice for all: how finantial incentives corrupted and can save the US criminal justice system”.
They should all be let go. After all very few are murderers
Mangual and Roland Fryer are two of my go-to when looking at crime. Good guys.
Are you trolling
@@Matt-kt9nm No. what's wrong with them?
@@sarahg2653 My bad. I had mistaken Fryer for someone else. I agree they are good people.
@@Matt-kt9nm No big deal. I don't know the guys personally so it could be that they are turds in real life, lol.
I'm willing to bet that guy has never been the subject of a police "investigation" let alone in the back of a cop car.
They rarely do
You hit the nail on the head.
His point about crime being concentrated in certain areas, such that 3% of NYC's population experiences 50% of the violent crime, is kind of irrelevant. This was true also in the early 90s when crime in NYC was so bad you couldn't be on the streets past 8pm. I mean, sure, the very bad areas of town will experience more crime, but when there's a crime wave the entire city goes to crap.
Police need to be held accountable just as ordinary citizens. No qualified immunity, no million dollar legal fund. It's the culture that is promoted that is bad and not necessarily all the police.
Amen on accountability for all!
Cut down on gun control, and let us protect ourselves! They aren't superheroes, and we aren't victims.
@@alexipestov7002 I also want to be able to protect myself. We need to be careful not to have other people in the crossfire.
Police unions as well
I think we should be much harsher on violent crime, and stop routine imprisonment for property crime, replacing it with ankle bracelets, community service, mandatory therapy and drug treatment and direct restorative justice to the victims.
One thing that's not talked about in these statistics is how cops can get away with a lot of abuse and harassment that never make it into these statistics. I'm sure if you're a rich lawyer cops are great and nice to you when you interact with them. The reality for your average poor person in the US is that if you're only harassed and talk down to and maybe a little in fear for your life because the cop puts his hand on his gun during a simple traffic stop then that's good. If you don't have a lot of money it's too easy for a cop To victimize/ abuse someone didn't charge them for resisting arrest. Even if cops were just doing their jobs there's still the bad guys. I've never once had a cop protect me or anyone I know but I know countless people who have been shafted and abused stolen from or locked in a cage for possessing the plant.
I’m poor been pulled over a bunch. With illegal stuff in car virtually ever time. I have found if you show your license, insurance, registration, pay your tickets and show ip in court and speak with respect and you typically go about about your way.
In Australia we have the same issues because we follow you guys so closely. The whole police issue could be fixed easily with 2 things. we change the police force to a Justice Force. If its not serving justice then its not to be dealt with. no 2 the police NEED more control. I have been wrongfully accused twice and both times the cops were doing their job but had no power in the situation resulting in lots of stress, anxiety and lost time for both parties.
@adeline rojas its hard to say, short answer is no police get sued all the time but long answer is kind of because all states have different rules, cops always make it very hard for regular people to sue them and cases get thrown out of court all the time. if you guys have that, it sucks but we still need a defence force to protect the innocent and we need to act with out mouthes not with our fists.
Crime went down in the 1990s-2000s almost everywhere, including almost all the many places that didn't do so called broken windows policing
I think he addresses that point in the book but I can’t remember how at the moment
@@trevthegamedev thanks
I would love to debate Rafael, but I'm a nobody.
A lot of this wouldn’t be happening if we listened to Milton Friedman
You mean about school choice? I agree!
Has nick not watched the george floyd body cam footage? George Floyd died of an overdose and was not even upset with what the cops did to him. The cop was supposed to kneel on him and even took his knee off for a moment.
The number one and two reason for the decline in crime was decreasing lead levels in people,and the fact that testosterone levels have decreased 60+% since the ,1970s
In America we still have 3800+ areas in the US with water at least 2x worse than Flint
Yes
Rafael has clearly studied this material and is intelligent, but needs a little coaching on 'um' and 'uh'. I didn't agree with everything he said, but the increase in life expectancy among black male through increased policing is an interesting way to quantify benefits.
It’s not about race. The problem is that deterrence or emboldening is the intent to intentionally destroy individuals with harm as a way to keep the peace.
one is dependent on another - a closed circuit...
there is a return string...
we are all flawed as people... the world is flawed...its normal...
it's not that I don't need police, just don't put me in a self defense situation
So much to say
I would have expected more details on the numbers, presented at the beginning and more come back questions from the moderator.
How high is the use of teasers and maces, that are recently introduced to the police in addition to guns? How high are the injuries of none deathly interactions, eg people thrown to the ground, that end up injured for the rest of their lifes or badly injured.
I would like to know what type of interactions and to what percentage went into the baseline to come up with a 1% forceful police interactions.
He still had to censor the truth when he spoke on George F.
I'll save you 68 minutes: yes.
Damn thanks dude. I figured that was the literal obvious answer.
The answer may be yes.
The real question is, when are we going to do something about qualified immunity, perverse arrest incentives, broken oaths to the constitution in favor of pleasing politicians to protect their own pensions, their lack of obligation to protect people, etc etc?
Until we address that, I don't care about the war on police. I'd rather have my own gun and body armor anyway. Thugs of the state aren't worth shedding tears over.
Abolish qualified immunity. Disband the unions. Require insurance.
Pfp checks out
Allow private competition also.
Abolish qualified immunity for Pfizer, Moderna, Astrozeneca and J&J and require insurance for those injured.
@@oceania2385 no argument from me.
@@oceania2385 yes. That too.
Gillespie feels completely compelled to play the white crusader here, interviewers should certainly ask difficult questions,but he is slightly grandstanding here for white liberal brownie points( I'm aware he's a self described libertarian)
It is essential for liberals - Left and Right - to divide the nation on Police Reform using race. If Americans united on the issue, liberals would lose power
Notice that he is referencing reported use of force. Actual use of force is probably as under reported as rape, and for the same reasons.
I think cops should start Quiet Quiting like everyone else.
In craphole northern states they are. Derek Chauvin was Keith Ellison's victim and Keith Ellison is George Soros' puppet. I'll retire to bedlam.
They are.
As if Reason isn’t guilty of irresponsible anti-police reporting and bias.
#uvaldecoverup
Finally. Reddit/youtube was censoring any talk of the actual stats.
Is there anything more boring than to talk about the Black condition in America? The sheer dullness.
The problem is moral people don't want to be a cop, and so the people that do are not held to accountable for their actions... the Stanford prison ex. and Stanley Milgrams conformity ex. Shows why this is... the thin blue line... the police officers bill of rights, harms people.
the Stanford experiment is largely frowned upon within the psychology circle. Many flaws in the study. Even vox has reported the mistake in the methodology.
Having life altering event over a DUI or no registration is insane to me.
Yes. Yes it is.
“War on policing” lmao. Both parties can’t stop giving cops more funding. This is just more mindless copaganda. What are you, the New York Times!? JFC give it a rest….
He forgot to mention full abortion legalization in the early 70’s as a biggest reason for decrease in crime.
"Crime went down after we legalized the murder of children in the womb." WOW.
The other thing is that these are very little issues compared to what other crap is going on in the world right now. what we should be doing is banding together to fix the other issues first and we might just find friendship along the way. We have seen the power of people on both sides with passion. imagine if we used that power to stop Putin or LRM
True a lot of these geopolitical issues are really bad war being the worst but in my day-to-day life just working trying to feed my family and have some fun every now and again police seem to be the biggest threat to my family's safety. There's not anyone or anything I encounter on a daily basis that has the potential to screw up my life that bad.
@@jackfrost4298 im truly sorry to hear that. as mentioned ive been harassed by police to the point they give me anxiety too, but at the same time like any industry there are good and bad people within. the same force helped my mother when she was mugged, same force that helped me when my shop was broken into and same force that helped my friend when she was in a car accident. I know this seems like a bash at your ways but i really believe that if you got rid of most of the guns on the streets the police would not feel so trigger happy or feel need to be so forceful.
Your government murdering innocent Americans is not a "very little" issue to people who love America and Americans, though
The cops don’t really help themselves tho. The 17 year old eating burger who got sjot proves it
42:00
Poor Lives Matter.
“As little as non-compliance”?? Non-compliance is not little at all. Everyone needs to know they need to comply with reasonable commands from a police officer.
No! No...no...no...no...no!! Everyone needs to know that you don't have to comply with some cops order. That pig is a citizen, just like you. And if the pig puts his hands on you, you should have the right to defend yourself
You cIearIy have never had an encounter with any PO, and if you did you ob3y3d everythlng he/she said without question. Everythlng he says is "reasonable" according to him/her.
Do us a favor. Go get your video camera and take some video of a prison, post office, or high security facility and let's see what your views on "reasonable" are after the police make cntct with you.
The problem is that what you or a cop thlnks is "reasonable" isn't. The only thlng that is "reasonable" is your Constitutional Rights.
I remember one guy who tried his best to comply with orders.
The police shot him dead in a hotel hallway.
The cop who pulled the trigger was fired, rehired, and allowed to retire with medical, and pension benefits for "trauma".
People like you don't know what reasonable commands are
I am convinced, We need a police state especially with the loss of jobs. I am investing in private prisons since housing is in crises
Clearly there are issues in policing that need to be addressed. First stop making police unofficial tax collectors. That will at least be a start.
Breaking Propaganda 💄
War on policing? Is this really on Reason? They still have qualified immunity right? Foh.
Where do you live chief? In Philadelphia, it is a fucking war zone.
#AllCrabsAreBeautiful
Even if police weren't being overly violent statistically, don't make the job legitimate, privatize policing and get rid of all gun legislation.
Exactly
Wait, "privatize policing"? You mean there should be no state-run law enforcement? That sounds like anarchy to me.
@@oktayyildirim2911 yep. Get rid of the pigs. Theres a reason our forefathers didnt set up pig departments everywhere
@@oktayyildirim2911 Yes!
@@HoldemCallfield If those private police misbehave, who will keep them in line?
Good to see Reason actually have a discussion that doesn’t always condemn the cops
Karma is a bitch and too many lies by those who were given authority over us.
Execute on sight ALL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES that illegally utilize unconstitutional regulations, which are ALL illegal. Unelected officials do NOT have the RIGHT to change our LAWS. They are ALL lifelong criminals who MUST be executed for the TREASON which is committed DAILY.
Extreme
@@pilot778spartan3 it is e extreme but extremism is the only thing that we have been proved in the last 20 years that actually accomplishes anything extremism yes it is horrifying but it is the only thing that is actually accomplished its goals in the last 30 years of its inception
Not much of an interview, just a question and answer. Nick needed to pushback.
Nick needs to get a brain or retire.
You had me up until..."the son of a New York Police detective" 🤦🏼♀️
thanks. this comment saved me 68 minutes
Seriously. Why even interview this guy?
No, and I'm happy to see cops being held accountable for centuries of Targeted Police Violence against my community. Or are you telling me that we're just imaging things.
That's fine. I don't want to hear bitching about the massive pull back that police do in those communities though. Actually solve your own problems now like so many claim they want to
@@chickenfishhybrid44 go watch some Law & Order reruns, boot licker
Yes, you ARE just imagining things. Floyd was allowed to lie on the ground and screm "I can't breathe!" LONG before Derek Chauvin was called to the scene and he was screaming "I can't breathe" due to his taking 3.1 times the lethal limit of fentanyl. Derek Chauvin was falsely convicted of murder since there was not a single white man on the jury.
@@chickenfishhybrid44 lol NYPD clearance rate for serious criminal charges (homicides) have been horrible. So not sure what they are doing. Other then being tax collectors (not sure how much more Info is needed that the dept has summons/arrest quotas & top brass pressure officers to hit those number by any means)
That’s on top of decades & decades of police manipulating crime statistics whether via overreporting/under reporting. juicing the numbers in their favor. Top brass leadership encouraged abusive (unconstitutional) behavior.
Cuzz hi took 2 pills that hi know Will KILL him!! Do ya Think its for FUN hi smile sooo Much ?!!
I don't get the song reference.
PFP checks out.
He is making the false assumption that increased police presence was responsible for the drop in violent crime. Freakonomics posits that the drop in crime is due largely to the legalization of abortion. It is entirely possible that without the abortion effect, crime would have gone up precisely because of increased policing.
There are two other things that will decrease crime rapidly. 1) Allow open carry of weapons, AKA, the 2nd Amendment. 2) Repeal all drug laws.
Oh, the precog, minority report argument from statistics. That is not a good way for society or laws to be determined. Statistics are used to manipulate and argue the worst conclusions. We don’t live in a statistical world, we live in a world where people have rights. Including the right to live.
@@danielcobbins9050 also legalizing rape and murder.
The indisputable size of the verifiably brutal and exploitative prison industrial complex, the demographics of that population, and the well documented extent to which law enforcement will go to keep the money rolling in say otherwise. Those things are just the tip of the iceberg. And countless first person testimonials are proof plenty that it's anything but rare. You just lost a subscriber. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
I'm interested when you say "the demographics of that population." Is there a correlation perhaps race? And does that race have a certain culture/trait that makes them more likely to land in prison than average i.e. single-parent households or disdain for school?
@@Elioc-ed6wr There has not been one single credible study ever that resulted in any conclusion other than that the majority commit many of the same "crimes" at the same rate as the minority, yet the majority represent a minority of those who receive the harshest penalties. Nice try though. Oh, and I block racist people. Buh-bye
You had to edit to produce that garbage paragraph?
Without watching the video, in NY your answer would be a resounding YES