While Japan greatly appreciate Water Margin, it had different meaning and significance to them compared to the Chinese readers. But I think it’s great how the same text could mean different things to different cultures, but still considered a masterpiece.
@@gille90 I think reason why Red Chamber wasn't so "known" outside of China could be that it a drama novel, and didn't have much action adventure like Three Kingdom, Water Margin or even Journey to the West. Still would be nice to have Jin Pei Mei to be translated, which is basically a Erotic novel based on a story arc of Water Margin, like Wu Chongs sister in Law
Journey to the West: Desciple, help me! Dream of Red Chamber: Sister, help me! Romance of Three Kingdom: Young brothers, help me! Water Margin: Young brother, help me!
“江湖” Jianghu, basically represents those who shun the rules and rigidness of the civil society and the government. They live according to their own "code of conduct" and are not beholden to any authority. There's a lot of food for thought in the Water Margin. I haven't read the entire work, but I remember this line from it - "Before you throw away a system that has worked for a thousand years, be sure that it's not because you see only problems. Be very sure you know what's to replace it."
A bit of background on the Water Margin story. They were actual rebels during the end of the Northern Song dynasty. Led by Song Jiang, he and his band of 36 men attacked towns and counties. However, after capturing the government offices, they would open the government storage and distribute the grains and monies. After a few years, they were defeated by a general named Zhang Shuye and surrendered with amnesty. Not much is known after that as the Northern Song dynasty fell soon by the Jurchen Jin dynasty. Since then, people had been writing fan fiction about Song Jiang and his band of 36.
That was amazing! I always wanted to read the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese Literature: Water Margin, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Journey to the West and Dream of the Red Chamber. But I was worried it would take me forever to understand the cultural backgrounds and why these novels are so studied and remembered. Especially with why Japanese media is so obsessed with them all besides the last (and why that didn't take off). Your introductions to these novels and pop culture awareness is exactly what I needed to gain the confidence in reading them!
The dream of red chamber is very different from all other three. It is hard to describe its beauty, linguistically, culturally, artistically. Some thinks it is like the sculpture God Venus. Beauty with amputation as its end 1/3 got lost and another wrote the end.
I played Koei's Bandit King of Ancient China, so I knew their names, although the game also let you to recruit generals from government officials and Fang La followers too.
I've always found the story intriguing, I'm one of those people who discovered the story because of the Suikoden games, I found the story about a group of people from all walks of life teaming together an interesting concept. I even went through a Water Margin phase for a while back in college when I tried to read or watch any Water Margin related media, including the classic Shaw Bros. film adaptations. I know you already talked about him in "Wu Zetian and the Book of Evil" but I would like to see a more comprehensive video on Di Renjie and what led to the Judge Dee stories and their effects on detective fiction.
If you guys are interested, there's a UA-cam channel called, the water margin podcast in which the reader goes through each chapter with commentary explaining certain cultural aspects of the setting that might be alien or confusing for non chinese listeners.
Ooh, definitely looking forward to your summarized series. I'm familiar with RTK and Journey To The West, but I never got around to Water Margin. (Also, does this mean that Inuyasha is basically "What if Wukong starred in Water Margin"?)
CJ, you're such a beast of a content creator, please never stop (and consider uploading something to "Never Stop Thinking", 'One Dnd' is around the corner ;) much love from Brazil!
I have book of Water Margin in Indonesia Language(batas tepi air), I play game Suikoden of PSx, PSP, NDS and PS2, also have watch old version of Water Margin series. Most story' concentrate on 108 Star of Destiny Hero.
A bit unrelated to your video, but I noticed in the comments that alot of none Chinese have way more knowledge than me in Three Kingdoms and now Water Margin. Makes me happy to see Chinese novels having wider audience outside of Asia. Hope one day they will also encounter Dream of Red Chamber too
Thank you for upcoming summarized series. In movies, the outlaws fought Fang La only. In writing, they also fought Liao. In writing, Lin Chong died of paralysis. In movie, Lin Chong died of not avenging Gao Qiu. I will be waiting for your videos. 😁
I was about to ask for a Journey to the West breakdown citing it as a significant modern media influence originating from a 16th century Chinese novel - then realized I'd searched for "hourney" (typo) on your video page. So, I'm heading over to the JttW video you already have now.
Used to love the tv series as a kid, I remember admiring the characters but it was so long ago I struggle to remember specifics so I found this really interesting.
There might be more similarities with Robin Hood after all: the earliest Robin Hood ballads frequently depict him and his men as rude, violent assholes, and they're clearly of the yeoman class (commoners, but free unlike most peasants/serfs, and typically small landholders), and more concerned with basic generosity to all individuals than redistributing wealth to the poor. It's the later Robin Hood stories that elevate him to the nobility and add the "take from the rich, give to the poor" and other more explicitly political themes like the Saxons revolting against Norman oppression.
It is an excellent comparison but the truth might be the opposite. In the earlier story, Water Margin was more oriented to the general public as oral literature. In that period Water Margin retained a great deal of good imagery of heroic robbers and how they fought against evil to protect the good. At some later time, a talented literary man, who collected and wrote most of the book, wanted to reach a predominantly educated literary audience. He added many twisted, dark hints that show the brutal side of these bandits and the weaknesses of heroic characters, indicating heroes are not actually as glorious as in folklore. He added many 'realist' style of writing compared to the fantasy style that still partly remained in today's work.
I was looking for this comment. I’ve read a fair amount of ballad texts, including the Robin Hood ballads, and there are instances of Robin and his men being violent and callous, wanton killings and sexual assaults. The ballads were cleaned up immensely before becoming children’s stories.
I've been watching your Animated Water Margin video with the Suikoden Tablet of Stars opened on another page. Some characters were really quite obvious who they were influenced by from the book, they were easy to guess which without looking it up.
The way East Asian cultures shared and interpreted literature seems similar to Western Europe and King Arthur stories! They passed the stories around, being re-told to suit each region's taste, being influenced by and influencing other retellings. I just think that's neat :] Is there a particular translation of Water Margin you recommend? I am leaning towards "All Men are Brothers," because I have read two books by the translator. I am inclined to trust her translation because though she is American, she was raised in China, and her original books seem to follow more Chinese literary conventions than Western (Tragic arcs and all.)
You aren't kidding about the last few chapters being a tragedy. I've read the novel three or four times and all the times after the first I pretty much had to stop after Zhang Shun died. It's just blow after blow
Awesome video. I suck at Chinese- and more importantly, I don’t feel fluent in Chinese Culture, but one of my goals is to eventually be able to read all four classic novels, starting from my childhood fav Journey to the West and eventually making my way to Dream of the Red Chamber (please cover that story one day). Thank you so much for these super insightful videos that put things into context 🔥🔥🙏🙏
Eyy I'm just finishing up the same challenge myself! Currently on the third volume of dream of red chamber You'll learn a lot just by reading through the stories, good luck to you and have fun.
@@sws212 Dream of the Red Chamber was produced in western opera form by Taiwanese director Stan Lai with a Chinese and pan -Asian cast for the San Francisco opera.
Immediately caught my eye to watch this video. I am old haha The Water Margin was the most beloved TV series I watched as a child in the 70's. Im not sure I have ever seen a TV show with such diverse characters and weaving story since honestly. I know very little of the original story and all these years later, I guess, better late than never ;)
Awesome. I'd also recommend the Outlaws of the Marsh podcast, if you'd prefer to listen rather than read. It's a long one, but probably the best way to get the full story.
I read Jin Shengtan's version and I absolutely love it. I think a good analogy with a western work would be the three Musketeers: the narrator keep telling us how brave they are, how important justice is to them, how they value friendship above all else, but really they are just a bunch of drunks/idiots/perverts who just do whatever they want.
Another glorious video to wrap it up. ✨ .. huh? Wait, you can't just tell me about someone marrying a murderous dog and leave me on a cliffhanger like that!!! Come back!
Nice video, I'm glad you're spotlighting Water Margins, which isn't as well known as the other three famous novels. I actually think that it's three-part structure was the intended arc, regardless who wrote it, and that the outlaws' downfall was necessary for the story to work. I always felt that the outlaws were simultaneously an extended metaphor and extended fantasy of the scholar-officials (or aspirants thereof) that comprised the main literate audience at the time. How do you balance what you feel to be righteous and just, with what you are obliged to do (i.e. obey the emperor)? Tons and tons of scholar-officials were exiled, punished, or downright executed because they asserted what they thought was righteous in court, and ended up displeasing the emperor. (Or displeasing the faction in court that the emperor was listening to at the time.) Su Shi was exiled for this; Sima Qian spoke up and had to choose death or castration. The story's attempt to reconcile these two equally important but sometimes contradictory value systems reminds me a bit of the English mediaeval poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight & the other Arthurian legends, which tries to reconcile chivalry (violent, honor-based) with Christianity (spiritual, without concept of honor and no glorification of inflicting violence). I think the outlaws are a projected fantasy on the part of the highly cultivated scholar-official class in an attempt to negotiate between righteousness and (Confucian) morality. The outlaws are, throughout the novel, opposed to the corrupt local officials. These represent the literati's court enemies, the bureaucrats the scholar-officials know are bad but whom they're afraid of criticizing because they have influence. So every time one of the outlaws kills a corrupt official, it's like the upright scholar-officials can fantasizing that justice is being served. Another reason, I think, for the outlaws being outlaws is due to Yue Fei's legacy; Yue Fei was famously martial, famously loyal to the emperor, and had a famously tragic end. IIRC, upright officials in the book tend to be spared (and anyway Song Jiang is one of them -- he is literally a sholar-official who becomes an outlaw, thus an avatar for the audience). But the price of fantasy is reality, and I think that explains the downward arc of the last third of the book. The entire book is predicated on wrestling with the balance between righteousness and Confucian morality, and, almost like Wagner's solution in Tristan und Isolde, the only way it works out is death. Also, although the outlaws are immoral by our standards, acts that shock us today probably wouldn't be as shocking back then. On Li Kui killing that boy, I remember reading about a legal case from the Han dynasty in which it was decided that a son should be executed because he reported his father for a crime, despite the righteousness of the deed of reporting a crime; apparently worse was the unfilial act. IIRC, there's also a part in Romance of the Three Kingdoms where a righteous farmer kills his wife and feeds her to his guest (I forget who it is - Liu Bei?). That's an example of righteousness! And notably, although the outlaws are a rowdy bunch, I can't recall them committing adultery, least of all with each others' wives. So there were definitely certainly types of immorality that, because they were abhorred by the scholar-official class, was not written into the outlaws' behavior.
@@ninjaluc79 Maybe because Koei hasn't make a Musou game with Water Margin as the base. But it is understand-able as Water Margin is a story of moral ambiguity in today standard moral value . Who know what will those children's think after they obsessed with the game and then read the novel. They may form a gang with "righteous mind" pridefully.
There is a podcast about the Water Margin. 100+ episodes. The same guy also made a podcast about The Romance of the three kingdoms. Name of the podcast are the names of the books.
I got that copy of Water Margin! Admittedly I wouldn't mind getting a less abridged version but I'm not sure how to go about tracking down the complete story. Honestly I love the descriptions of meals in the book, at some point I gotta prepare some of the cuisine from this book. The summarized series will be a real treat, as here's a lot of nuance I know I missed.
The most memorable story in Water Margin for me is the story of Dương Chí (I don't know know the English name for him, so I will just use the Vietnamese name instead) . So this guy is basically some police officer of that time, who used to work for the government, he was given the job to escort a ton of government supplies. But because of Ngô Dụng using cheap trick to knock him and his team out and steal all the goods, he became a criminal, put in jail and later become a bandit leader himself. And that is not all, Ngô Dụng (the advisor of the Lương Sơn Bạc gang) later gaslight and manipulate him to join their criminal gang, become one of 108 hảo hán too.
In Vietnam, there is a common saying: "When juvenile, don't read Water Margin. When grey haired, just avoid Three Kingdoms." Probly because the values these books convey.
@@DungHuynh-xm9mp Water Margin encourages rash, antisocial behaviour and glorifies revolution against laws and order. While Three Kingdoms shows a lot of deceptive and crafty schemes, thirst for power, cynical attitude to life.
@@DungHuynh-xm9mp 老不看三国，少不看水浒，男不看西游，女不看红楼。Old people don't see the Three Kingdoms, young people don't see the Water Margin, men don't see the Westward Journey, women don't see the Red Mansions。The Three Kingdoms are full of scheming, which is not good for the elderly; The Water Margin is full of loyalty in the Jianghu, and young people are easy to go astray; Monkey King, the leading character of the Westward Journey, has no discipline, and men are easy to cause trouble when they see him; The woman in the dream of Red Mansions is sentimental, and the woman will feel pity when she sees it
@Dũng Huỳnh Juvenile may imitate the character in the water Margin to become a bandit. Grey hair means ederly，there are too much calculating in three Kingdom, the ederly will be cunning
Mao Zedong once commented this novel that it teaches everyone that when you started an revolution，you should never seek compromise with the enemy and leave your revolution unfinished.
This is my favorite novel of all time growing up - but I never finished it past the point where they gathered the 108 as I was already aware of how it ended. I could understand the sentiments of the people at the time regarding the final season arc.
Very eager to see the summarized series. I've also really enjoyed the water margin podcast which was a chapter by chapter summary podcast that just finished recently (he also plans to do investiture of the gods and has one done for three kingdoms). One thing I was curious about was the casual cannibalism depicted in the novel. I've seen some papers talk a out it as a metaphorical evening of the classes but most of what I came across while looking wasn't in English so any further context on that would be great.
On your other Watermargin video i recognised the location: Liang Shan Po. In the 80s i saw a TV Series "Die Rebellen vom Liang Shan Po". I realized i was watching the Japanese 1973 "Suikoden" TV Show. I did not remembet much. But man, i enjoyed your Watermargin and Romance of the three Kingdoms Videos.
You forgot to cover Water Margin Sequel, an extended novel ( 水浒后传) which tells the story of the remaining characters who survived the prequel, escaped to Siam (Thailand) and re-banded again even with the descendants of some of the previous 108 characters to form a new rebellion against the corrupted officials of China. This time they succeeded in taking their revenge.
I grew up reading this shui hu chuan when i was about 12-13. Learned about brotherhood, justice and morale. Really good story, although kinda use harsh language for young readers 😁. It's better to also read three kingdoms with this, to balance our learning of the principles 😂.. but afterwards, might get interested to read more about pang jin lian 🤤
So, does Tuttle also publish the "sanitized" version of Tom Sawyer? Don't waste your time on a 70 chapter version that chops off the entire part of the story at a pivotal turning-point ... a full 30 more chapters. The full 100 chapter version is out there. (There are supposedly 120-Chapter versions, but I have never run into them). I've never read this version, but I have read both the 70-Chapter Water Margin (by a different publisher) and the 100-Chapter Outlaws of the Marsh (published by Foreign Languages Press Beijing) Though there are spelling errors and anachronistic word uses, I highly suggest the 100 Chapter Outlaws of the Marsh (published by Foreign Languages Press Beijing) if you want to get the true feeling of the story. And I'll give you a hint about reading this novel: If you get to the point in the story, just skip ahead a couple of chapters and start reading it again. Do that as necessary until your reach the end of the novel. You'll likely find that you won't be skipping very often, but often going "where the heck did these characters come from and how did they get into this situation?!" and flipping back to read previous chapters that you jumped over. I think it's well worth reading, but I only think I've read it between 7 and 10 times, so I'm obviously biased. - "All the mountain brothers are here!"
Regardless of the content I have to say that it's a really good name too! I wonder if other more modern authors took names of ancient Chinese authors and anglicized them? Thanks for another excellent video my friend!
One memorable episode from Water Margin is when Wu Song nearly ate dumplings made from human meat (he saw public hair in the filling!) and almost became dumplings himself!
Ever been so drunk that you beat tigers to death with your bare hands? Well, a funny thing happened to me as I stumbled home from an all-night bender... (Baba O'Reilley plays)
2:26 I think calling them "heroes" is not exactly a misnomer, they are called like that in the novel too. The 71 chapter of the novel is named 梁山泊英雄排座次
Anytime I'm reading eastern works and see the term 'hero' I always think 'person of great talent.' When I read western works and see 'hero' I think 'person of great virtue.' Just a different interpretation of the same word by different cultures.
@@josephmatthews7698 The ancient Greeks had their definition of a hero: a person who performed feats no ordinary citizens could. In other words, a badass.
Right now my free times are spent reading many varieties of novels ranging from Chinese Wuxia, Korean fantasy and Japan Isekai. I wonder how future generations a thousand years from now would regard our novels of today?
Remember the episode from Star Trek Next Generation about Q people who got bored because they have eternal life and have read any novels that were ever written?
For some reason part of me thought about Warhammer making Water Margin for Cathay if they release Fantasy Roleplay. Mostly because Water Margin’s anti hero being more in line with Warhammer’s dark universe (unlike 40k, Fantasy had genuine heroism but has room for anti heroes. Even if I see Cathay is too utopian compared to Empire and Bretonnia despite being a authoritarian realm with dragons who barely get along and Mass conscription.)
I remember there was a PC game based on this literature around the '80 / '90. Quite famous and good game, however it lacks the popularity against RTK games as there was only 1 game (as far as I know)
When I worked in China long ago I read multiple-volume translations of Journey to the West and Romance of the Three Kingdoms but for whatever reason I couldn't get into Water Margin. I do remember it started with someone killing a tiger bare-handedly and there was an adulterous affair. I'm looking forward to your description of the novel.
It actually started with an epidemic in China (wait a minute...) The emperor ordered grand marshal Hong to find the best Taoist priest in the empire to quell the epidemic. Grand marshal Hong then stumbled upon a sealed temple and accidentally unleashed 108 demons into the world. The 108 demons reincarnated into 108 heroes decades later
@@ttytty6940 That was related? I actually read some of that. Unfortunately the juicier parts of the English translation where translated in Latin. WTF? 😆
@@deanzaZZR it’s related with Hu Song the guy that killed tiger, his sister in law had affair with a rich guy & they killed his brother with poison, so he killed them both to avenge and fled to Liang Mountain & joined with the gangs… but the main character is the rich guy that fxxk everybody 😂😂
Do you plan to make videos regarding Judge Bao (Bao Zheng) ? the series quite famous in Indonesia during 90's (one of my childhood memories) and I believe the stories were also good.
I found the first 2 thirds (until the 108 stars were gathered) translated, and it could be a bit long, but it was... interesting. Seeing the protagonists at times act like total jerks made it clear just how different the culture was. On the plus side, it was quite clear where Bioware borrowed from for their Black Whirlwind character.
At 3:03, it's more like against the Neo Confucianism ideology adopted by the state. The original Confucianism during the Spring and Autumn period was different from the ones in the Song and Ming Dynasty.
While Japan greatly appreciate Water Margin, it had different meaning and significance to them compared to the Chinese readers. But I think it’s great how the same text could mean different things to different cultures, but still considered a masterpiece.
what about the 4th masterpiece . dream of the red chamber. never heard of that one in the west. t
Which TV adaption should be watched?
THANK YOU SO MUCH! I CANT WAIT FOR THIS SERIES
@@gille90 I think reason why Red Chamber wasn't so "known" outside of China could be that it a drama novel, and didn't have much action adventure like Three Kingdom, Water Margin or even Journey to the West.
Still would be nice to have Jin Pei Mei to be translated, which is basically a Erotic novel based on a story arc of Water Margin, like Wu Chongs sister in Law
@CP Mak
I recommend the 1998 cctv version.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Water_Margin_(1998_TV_series)
The Water Margin is like if somebody novelized a DND campaign where all the players were murder hobos.
And cannibals
@@inotaishu1 True that.
Water margin is too cool for DnD
Journey to the West: Desciple, help me!
Dream of Red Chamber: Sister, help me!
Romance of Three Kingdom: Young brothers, help me!
Water Margin: Young brother, help me!
lol well said!
Haha😂
“江湖” Jianghu, basically represents those who shun the rules and rigidness of the civil society and the government. They live according to their own "code of conduct" and are not beholden to any authority.
There's a lot of food for thought in the Water Margin. I haven't read the entire work, but I remember this line from it - "Before you throw away a system that has worked for a thousand years, be sure that it's not because you see only problems. Be very sure you know what's to replace it."
Do you also remember the revenge cannibalism?
The pugilistic world
reading this novel turned me into a benevolent, righteous youth who traveled by rivers and lakes. of course, it never ends well.
Lmao..
U followed ur dreams
A bit of background on the Water Margin story. They were actual rebels during the end of the Northern Song dynasty. Led by Song Jiang, he and his band of 36 men attacked towns and counties. However, after capturing the government offices, they would open the government storage and distribute the grains and monies. After a few years, they were defeated by a general named Zhang Shuye and surrendered with amnesty. Not much is known after that as the Northern Song dynasty fell soon by the Jurchen Jin dynasty. Since then, people had been writing fan fiction about Song Jiang and his band of 36.
So, this guy was wrong about them being pure fiends in the first 70 chapters?
Sounds like he's Robin Hood
Y sounds like robinhood
I have read the book. And I have the down loaded and printed book with me.
It is always an auspicious day when one of the four great classics are covered 😊
That was amazing! I always wanted to read the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese Literature: Water Margin, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Journey to the West and Dream of the Red Chamber. But I was worried it would take me forever to understand the cultural backgrounds and why these novels are so studied and remembered. Especially with why Japanese media is so obsessed with them all besides the last (and why that didn't take off). Your introductions to these novels and pop culture awareness is exactly what I needed to gain the confidence in reading them!
The dream of red chamber is very different from all other three. It is hard to describe its beauty, linguistically, culturally, artistically. Some thinks it is like the sculpture God Venus. Beauty with amputation as its end 1/3 got lost and another wrote the end.
There are 2 other ones you could like. They are :
*The Plum in the Golden Vase*
*The Scholars*
Keeping track of 108 protagonists has to be a headache. Kudos to the writers!
Some are given more attention than others. I believe "Nine-tailed Turtle" Tao Zongwang only has 2 lines about him for example
I played Koei's Bandit King of Ancient China, so I knew their names, although the game also let you to recruit generals from government officials and Fang La followers too.
Say that to Pokémon fans.
I've always found the story intriguing, I'm one of those people who discovered the story because of the Suikoden games, I found the story about a group of people from all walks of life teaming together an interesting concept. I even went through a Water Margin phase for a while back in college when I tried to read or watch any Water Margin related media, including the classic Shaw Bros. film adaptations.
I know you already talked about him in "Wu Zetian and the Book of Evil" but I would like to see a more comprehensive video on Di Renjie and what led to the Judge Dee stories and their effects on detective fiction.
Definitely looking forward to your Water Margin series. Can't wait!
If you guys are interested, there's a UA-cam channel called, the water margin podcast in which the reader goes through each chapter with commentary explaining certain cultural aspects of the setting that might be alien or confusing for non chinese listeners.
Finished it about 2 months, it was great
Ooh, definitely looking forward to your summarized series. I'm familiar with RTK and Journey To The West, but I never got around to Water Margin.
(Also, does this mean that Inuyasha is basically "What if Wukong starred in Water Margin"?)
"(Also, does this mean that Inuyasha is basically "What if Wukong starred in Water Margin"?)"
LOL! I think you found the secret formula.
@@CoolHistoryBros what can we learn about hao han from this book/novel
@@CoolHistoryBros isn't this the chinese version of dulla jatt
CJ, you're such a beast of a content creator, please never stop (and consider uploading something to "Never Stop Thinking", 'One Dnd' is around the corner ;) much love from Brazil!
Yes, I loved your "summarized" series! Really looking forward to the upcoming Water Margin summarized series!
I have book of Water Margin in Indonesia Language(batas tepi air), I play game Suikoden of PSx, PSP, NDS and PS2, also have watch old version of Water Margin series. Most story' concentrate on 108 Star of Destiny Hero.
Yess i am listening to the audiobook, it's a long one but an interesting one
GensoSuikoden or Suikdoen video game is how I encounter such rich Chinese literature
I love Suikoden 2. It`s an unforgettable experience
Suikoden is my favourite RPG game more than FF, it's unique that we must recruit 108 characters with different skills
A bit unrelated to your video, but I noticed in the comments that alot of none Chinese have way more knowledge than me in Three Kingdoms and now Water Margin. Makes me happy to see Chinese novels having wider audience outside of Asia. Hope one day they will also encounter Dream of Red Chamber too
You finally talking about my favorite novel ！ 😄😄😄 definitely suggest folks go to watch the TV drama too!
Yahoooo! Water Margin summarized!!!!
Suikoden fans would love this
Yes please do cover water margin. And thank you
Thank you so much for covering this story. Also I love how Rui made Song Jiang a manlet lol
This is really exciting! I'm going to try reading the actual book this year and see if I can keep up with this channel.
Suikoden 1 and 2 are my absolute favorite Non-Square RPGs. I also look forward to Eiyuden.
Thank you for upcoming summarized series.
In movies, the outlaws fought Fang La only.
In writing, they also fought Liao.
In writing, Lin Chong died of paralysis.
In movie, Lin Chong died of not avenging Gao Qiu.
I will be waiting for your videos. 😁
Black Whirlwind was a companion in Jade Empire. I did not know that came from somewhere else before watching this. Awesome!
dang and he lives in a Marsh
Brilliant video, hope we get more such content on Chinese classics.
I was about to ask for a Journey to the West breakdown citing it as a significant modern media influence originating from a 16th century Chinese novel - then realized I'd searched for "hourney" (typo) on your video page. So, I'm heading over to the JttW video you already have now.
Great video
Yes!!! Finally
This a great book. Thanks for the video. Brings back memories from when I was reading it. My intro to wuxia!
Nice video
I can't wait to watch your summary! As long as this version of Suikoden doesn't have missable Stars of Destiny so I miss out on the good ending :/
Heh. None of them are "missed", but this version has no "good" ending. At best, it can be described as bittersweet.
Can't wait for the summary! And also for the Dream of the Red Chamber because I gave up after 2 chapters
Thank you , another book to add to my reading list.
Thank you for sharing this with us!
Oh wow I've played Suikoden 2! Its a really great game
Damn, I've been thinking about reading this. I need to get around to that soon.
Used to love the tv series as a kid, I remember admiring the characters but it was so long ago I struggle to remember specifics so I found this really interesting.
There might be more similarities with Robin Hood after all: the earliest Robin Hood ballads frequently depict him and his men as rude, violent assholes, and they're clearly of the yeoman class (commoners, but free unlike most peasants/serfs, and typically small landholders), and more concerned with basic generosity to all individuals than redistributing wealth to the poor. It's the later Robin Hood stories that elevate him to the nobility and add the "take from the rich, give to the poor" and other more explicitly political themes like the Saxons revolting against Norman oppression.
It is an excellent comparison but the truth might be the opposite. In the earlier story, Water Margin was more oriented to the general public as oral literature. In that period Water Margin retained a great deal of good imagery of heroic robbers and how they fought against evil to protect the good. At some later time, a talented literary man, who collected and wrote most of the book, wanted to reach a predominantly educated literary audience. He added many twisted, dark hints that show the brutal side of these bandits and the weaknesses of heroic characters, indicating heroes are not actually as glorious as in folklore. He added many 'realist' style of writing compared to the fantasy style that still partly remained in today's work.
I was looking for this comment. I’ve read a fair amount of ballad texts, including the Robin Hood ballads, and there are instances of Robin and his men being violent and callous, wanton killings and sexual assaults. The ballads were cleaned up immensely before becoming children’s stories.
thank you for the wonderful book description and Chinese morality lesson.
Maybe one day Water Margin will be popular worldwide 🙌
"0ne day", ha.
It already is for people in the know around the world.
I've been watching your Animated Water Margin video with the Suikoden Tablet of Stars opened on another page. Some characters were really quite obvious who they were influenced by from the book, they were easy to guess which without looking it up.
CJ! Yes! After ROTK and then water margin! You still have a lot in line....in the future please also summarize Feng Shen Yan Yi.
The way East Asian cultures shared and interpreted literature seems similar to Western Europe and King Arthur stories! They passed the stories around, being re-told to suit each region's taste, being influenced by and influencing other retellings. I just think that's neat :]
Is there a particular translation of Water Margin you recommend? I am leaning towards "All Men are Brothers," because I have read two books by the translator. I am inclined to trust her translation because though she is American, she was raised in China, and her original books seem to follow more Chinese literary conventions than Western (Tragic arcs and all.)
You aren't kidding about the last few chapters being a tragedy. I've read the novel three or four times and all the times after the first I pretty much had to stop after Zhang Shun died. It's just blow after blow
But... Spoilers!
Awesome video. I suck at Chinese- and more importantly, I don’t feel fluent in Chinese Culture, but one of my goals is to eventually be able to read all four classic novels, starting from my childhood fav Journey to the West and eventually making my way to Dream of the Red Chamber (please cover that story one day). Thank you so much for these super insightful videos that put things into context 🔥🔥🙏🙏
lol you're everywhere
Eyy I'm just finishing up the same challenge myself! Currently on the third volume of dream of red chamber
You'll learn a lot just by reading through the stories, good luck to you and have fun.
@@lesliewen3428 LMAOO I’m chronically online, how u been bro
To be fair, I wouldn't recommend Red Chamber, it's just a different type of writing. No action like the other three.
@@sws212 Dream of the Red Chamber was produced in western opera form by Taiwanese director Stan Lai with a Chinese and pan -Asian cast for the San Francisco opera.
Immediately caught my eye to watch this video. I am old haha
The Water Margin was the most beloved TV series I watched as a child in the 70's. Im not sure I have ever seen a TV show with such diverse characters and weaving story since honestly. I know very little of the original story and all these years later, I guess, better late than never ;)
Fans of the Suikoden video game series, especially the second game, please stand up!
Awesome. I'd also recommend the Outlaws of the Marsh podcast, if you'd prefer to listen rather than read. It's a long one, but probably the best way to get the full story.
I read Jin Shengtan's version and I absolutely love it. I think a good analogy with a western work would be the three Musketeers: the narrator keep telling us how brave they are, how important justice is to them, how they value friendship above all else, but really they are just a bunch of drunks/idiots/perverts who just do whatever they want.
Another glorious video to wrap it up. ✨
.. huh? Wait, you can't just tell me about someone marrying a murderous dog and leave me on a cliffhanger like that!!! Come back!
Nice video, I'm glad you're spotlighting Water Margins, which isn't as well known as the other three famous novels. I actually think that it's three-part structure was the intended arc, regardless who wrote it, and that the outlaws' downfall was necessary for the story to work.
I always felt that the outlaws were simultaneously an extended metaphor and extended fantasy of the scholar-officials (or aspirants thereof) that comprised the main literate audience at the time. How do you balance what you feel to be righteous and just, with what you are obliged to do (i.e. obey the emperor)? Tons and tons of scholar-officials were exiled, punished, or downright executed because they asserted what they thought was righteous in court, and ended up displeasing the emperor. (Or displeasing the faction in court that the emperor was listening to at the time.) Su Shi was exiled for this; Sima Qian spoke up and had to choose death or castration. The story's attempt to reconcile these two equally important but sometimes contradictory value systems reminds me a bit of the English mediaeval poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight & the other Arthurian legends, which tries to reconcile chivalry (violent, honor-based) with Christianity (spiritual, without concept of honor and no glorification of inflicting violence).
I think the outlaws are a projected fantasy on the part of the highly cultivated scholar-official class in an attempt to negotiate between righteousness and (Confucian) morality. The outlaws are, throughout the novel, opposed to the corrupt local officials. These represent the literati's court enemies, the bureaucrats the scholar-officials know are bad but whom they're afraid of criticizing because they have influence. So every time one of the outlaws kills a corrupt official, it's like the upright scholar-officials can fantasizing that justice is being served. Another reason, I think, for the outlaws being outlaws is due to Yue Fei's legacy; Yue Fei was famously martial, famously loyal to the emperor, and had a famously tragic end. IIRC, upright officials in the book tend to be spared (and anyway Song Jiang is one of them -- he is literally a sholar-official who becomes an outlaw, thus an avatar for the audience).
But the price of fantasy is reality, and I think that explains the downward arc of the last third of the book. The entire book is predicated on wrestling with the balance between righteousness and Confucian morality, and, almost like Wagner's solution in Tristan und Isolde, the only way it works out is death. Also, although the outlaws are immoral by our standards, acts that shock us today probably wouldn't be as shocking back then. On Li Kui killing that boy, I remember reading about a legal case from the Han dynasty in which it was decided that a son should be executed because he reported his father for a crime, despite the righteousness of the deed of reporting a crime; apparently worse was the unfilial act. IIRC, there's also a part in Romance of the Three Kingdoms where a righteous farmer kills his wife and feeds her to his guest (I forget who it is - Liu Bei?). That's an example of righteousness! And notably, although the outlaws are a rowdy bunch, I can't recall them committing adultery, least of all with each others' wives. So there were definitely certainly types of immorality that, because they were abhorred by the scholar-official class, was not written into the outlaws' behavior.
Water Margin isn't as well known as the other 3 novels? Did you even watch this video? HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
@@schadenfreude6274 I think he meant not as massively popular as RoTK or Journey to the West.
@@ninjaluc79 Maybe because Koei hasn't make a Musou game with Water Margin as the base. But it is understand-able as Water Margin is a story of moral ambiguity in today standard moral value . Who know what will those children's think after they obsessed with the game and then read the novel. They may form a gang with "righteous mind" pridefully.
There is a podcast about the Water Margin. 100+ episodes. The same guy also made a podcast about The Romance of the three kingdoms. Name of the podcast are the names of the books.
I got that copy of Water Margin! Admittedly I wouldn't mind getting a less abridged version but I'm not sure how to go about tracking down the complete story. Honestly I love the descriptions of meals in the book, at some point I gotta prepare some of the cuisine from this book.
The summarized series will be a real treat, as here's a lot of nuance I know I missed.
The most memorable story in Water Margin for me is the story of Dương Chí (I don't know know the English name for him, so I will just use the Vietnamese name instead) . So this guy is basically some police officer of that time, who used to work for the government, he was given the job to escort a ton of government supplies. But because of Ngô Dụng using cheap trick to knock him and his team out and steal all the goods, he became a criminal, put in jail and later become a bandit leader himself. And that is not all, Ngô Dụng (the advisor of the Lương Sơn Bạc gang) later gaslight and manipulate him to join their criminal gang, become one of 108 hảo hán too.
Blue faced demon yang zhi
Dương = Yang, Chí = Zhi, Ngô = Wu, Dụng = Yong. Lương Sơn = Liangshan
😊
How would I learn about these topics without your channel?
In Vietnam, there is a common saying: "When juvenile, don't read Water Margin. When grey haired, just avoid Three Kingdoms." Probly because the values these books convey.
Why?
@@DungHuynh-xm9mp Water Margin encourages rash, antisocial behaviour and glorifies revolution against laws and order. While Three Kingdoms shows a lot of deceptive and crafty schemes, thirst for power, cynical attitude to life.
@@DungHuynh-xm9mp 老不看三国，少不看水浒，男不看西游，女不看红楼。Old people don't see the Three Kingdoms, young people don't see the Water Margin, men don't see the Westward Journey, women don't see the Red Mansions。The Three Kingdoms are full of scheming, which is not good for the elderly; The Water Margin is full of loyalty in the Jianghu, and young people are easy to go astray; Monkey King, the leading character of the Westward Journey, has no discipline, and men are easy to cause trouble when they see him; The woman in the dream of Red Mansions is sentimental, and the woman will feel pity when she sees it
China also, I am Chinese. 少年不讀水滸 老年不讀三國
@Dũng Huỳnh Juvenile may imitate the character in the water Margin to become a bandit. Grey hair means ederly，there are too much calculating in three Kingdom, the ederly will be cunning
Thank you
Mao Zedong once commented this novel that it teaches everyone that when you started an revolution，you should never seek compromise with the enemy and leave your revolution unfinished.
This is my favorite novel of all time growing up - but I never finished it past the point where they gathered the 108 as I was already aware of how it ended. I could understand the sentiments of the people at the time regarding the final season arc.
Suikoden is my favorite rog of all time, I don't know it was based on a book! I'm getting it,
Very eager to see the summarized series. I've also really enjoyed the water margin podcast which was a chapter by chapter summary podcast that just finished recently (he also plans to do investiture of the gods and has one done for three kingdoms). One thing I was curious about was the casual cannibalism depicted in the novel. I've seen some papers talk a out it as a metaphorical evening of the classes but most of what I came across while looking wasn't in English so any further context on that would be great.
Always great to see another fan of that podcast!
On your other Watermargin video i recognised the location: Liang Shan Po. In the 80s i saw a TV Series "Die Rebellen vom Liang Shan Po".
I realized i was watching the Japanese 1973 "Suikoden" TV Show. I did not remembet much.
But man, i enjoyed your Watermargin and Romance of the three Kingdoms Videos.
You forgot to cover Water Margin Sequel, an extended novel ( 水浒后传) which tells the story of the remaining characters who survived the prequel, escaped to Siam (Thailand) and re-banded again even with the descendants of some of the previous 108 characters to form a new rebellion against the corrupted officials of China. This time they succeeded in taking their revenge.
Could that have influenced Ong Bak 2? Remember how there was a group of bandits in Thailand from China and other places?
Excited for Water Margin series (and potentially Dream of the Red Chamber), but still hope we'll also get a historical series.
I've been waiting for some one to cover this... is there a chance where you do a whole video covering the tale and it's heroes ?
I grew up reading this shui hu chuan when i was about 12-13. Learned about brotherhood, justice and morale. Really good story, although kinda use harsh language for young readers 😁. It's better to also read three kingdoms with this, to balance our learning of the principles 😂.. but afterwards, might get interested to read more about pang jin lian 🤤
So, does Tuttle also publish the "sanitized" version of Tom Sawyer?
Don't waste your time on a 70 chapter version that chops off the entire part of the story at a pivotal turning-point ... a full 30 more chapters.
The full 100 chapter version is out there. (There are supposedly 120-Chapter versions, but I have never run into them).
I've never read this version, but I have read both the 70-Chapter Water Margin (by a different publisher) and the 100-Chapter Outlaws of the Marsh (published by Foreign Languages Press Beijing)
Though there are spelling errors and anachronistic word uses, I highly suggest the 100 Chapter Outlaws of the Marsh (published by Foreign Languages Press Beijing) if you want to get the true feeling of the story.
And I'll give you a hint about reading this novel: If you get to the point in the story, just skip ahead a couple of chapters and start reading it again. Do that as necessary until your reach the end of the novel. You'll likely find that you won't be skipping very often, but often going "where the heck did these characters come from and how did they get into this situation?!" and flipping back to read previous chapters that you jumped over.
I think it's well worth reading, but I only think I've read it between 7 and 10 times, so I'm obviously biased.
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"All the mountain brothers are here!"
Regardless of the content I have to say that it's a really good name too!
I wonder if other more modern authors took names of ancient Chinese authors and anglicized them?
Thanks for another excellent video my friend!
I was hoping to have a 108 gangbang pr0n. They should call it "Water Squirting Margin" :)
I remember reading a Singaporean comic of it and learned finally what "values dissonance" mean. Because I absolutely loathe Li Kui, one of the heroes
108 Heroes of Water Margin
One memorable episode from Water Margin is when Wu Song nearly ate dumplings made from human meat (he saw public hair in the filling!) and almost became dumplings himself!
Ever been so drunk that you beat tigers to death with your bare hands? Well, a funny thing happened to me as I stumbled home from an all-night bender... (Baba O'Reilley plays)
So this is story is inspiration of folklore horor story about dumpling make from human meat in asia.
@@unimenjayatextile1478 more like some real life events influence those stories, famine can make people do a lot of terrible things
Wuxia director Tsui Hark used human meat buns trope in his film New Dragon Gate Inn, with Maggie Cheung as the innkeeper in charge of fresh meat.
They’re not Sherwood Forest’s Merry Men. They’re more like the Sopranos.. can’t wait for a Netflix adaptation!!
No! Don't!
2:26 I think calling them "heroes" is not exactly a misnomer, they are called like that in the novel too. The 71 chapter of the novel is named 梁山泊英雄排座次
Anytime I'm reading eastern works and see the term 'hero' I always think 'person of great talent.' When I read western works and see 'hero' I think 'person of great virtue.' Just a different interpretation of the same word by different cultures.
@@josephmatthews7698 The ancient Greeks had their definition of a hero: a person who performed feats no ordinary citizens could. In other words, a badass.
@@OhTheDeliciousIrony I think "badass" is probably the best modern word for what the phrase 好漢 ("good man") from Water Margin is trying to express.
The one classic I haven’t read yet. Love Three Kingdoms and Journey to the West.
Right now my free times are spent reading many varieties of novels ranging from Chinese Wuxia, Korean fantasy and Japan Isekai. I wonder how future generations a thousand years from now would regard our novels of today?
Remember the episode from Star Trek Next Generation about Q people who got bored because they have eternal life and have read any novels that were ever written?
Boring and mass produced trash.
If internet survives and data not erased, they will perfect the template and regarded 99% of past novels as bad
Appreciate the sense that long ago times were not that different from the present, tatoeba, both times wrote fanfics or homages.
Damn, it never gets easy hearing the ending
For some reason part of me thought about Warhammer making Water Margin for Cathay if they release Fantasy Roleplay.
Mostly because Water Margin’s anti hero being more in line with Warhammer’s dark universe (unlike 40k, Fantasy had genuine heroism but has room for anti heroes. Even if I see Cathay is too utopian compared to Empire and Bretonnia despite being a authoritarian realm with dragons who barely get along and Mass conscription.)
I remember there was a PC game based on this literature around the '80 / '90. Quite famous and good game, however it lacks the popularity against RTK games as there was only 1 game (as far as I know)
In my opinion, the 1998 cctv version is the best tv show adaption.
When I worked in China long ago I read multiple-volume translations of Journey to the West and Romance of the Three Kingdoms but for whatever reason I couldn't get into Water Margin. I do remember it started with someone killing a tiger bare-handedly and there was an adulterous affair. I'm looking forward to your description of the novel.
It actually started with an epidemic in China (wait a minute...)
The emperor ordered grand marshal Hong to find the best Taoist priest in the empire to quell the epidemic. Grand marshal Hong then stumbled upon a sealed temple and accidentally unleashed 108 demons into the world. The 108 demons reincarnated into 108 heroes decades later
@@Gb-be9bn The version I had was from Mainland China where I was working. I think the translator/editor skipped over this part!
That adultery affair also has a spin off erotic novel call Jin Ping Mei or The Plum in the Golden Vase 😂
@@ttytty6940 That was related? I actually read some of that. Unfortunately the juicier parts of the English translation where translated in Latin. WTF? 😆
@@deanzaZZR it’s related with Hu Song the guy that killed tiger, his sister in law had affair with a rich guy & they killed his brother with poison, so he killed them both to avenge and fled to Liang Mountain & joined with the gangs… but the main character is the rich guy that fxxk everybody 😂😂
and now i miss suikoden series game
17:56 hey, what is that "quack" sound?
When are you going to do Dream if Red Chamber?
My childhood PS game Suikoden 2!
Nanami and Joey!!
It's a shame that "All Men Are Brothers" wasn't translated to English ; I'd love to watch it.
Dude check out Chinese Lore Podcast. It’s better than the TV series
The 1998 cctv version is the best TV series adaption in my opinion. You can find it with English subtitles if you look hard enough.
Please do the dream of the red chamber next.
About time water margin is the less influence out of the 4 work
Do you plan to make videos regarding Judge Bao (Bao Zheng) ? the series quite famous in Indonesia during 90's (one of my childhood memories) and I believe the stories were also good.
The book is Seven Heroes and Five Gallants. You can find it on internet.
@@boulderbash19700209 err, what?
@@SFH1192 The source stories of Bao Zheng were from that book.
Ohh, that's what you meant. Okay, thank you
I think I like the outlaws version.
My favorite of the classics
I thought Dragon Balls were based on Journey to the West. I was never aware that it also based on Water Margin.
I found the first 2 thirds (until the 108 stars were gathered) translated, and it could be a bit long, but it was... interesting. Seeing the protagonists at times act like total jerks made it clear just how different the culture was.
On the plus side, it was quite clear where Bioware borrowed from for their Black Whirlwind character.
We need Jade Empire 2!
At 3:03, it's more like against the Neo Confucianism ideology adopted by the state. The original Confucianism during the Spring and Autumn period was different from the ones in the Song and Ming Dynasty.
How were they different?