That is such a great point about American audiences preferring girl groups to be composed of adults. I feel like that's the fundamental mismatch between kpop production companies and American audiences.
Let us not forget about the racial identy of these groups as well. Even though it seems like it wouldent be a big deal unfortunately when it comes to kpop or asians in general in the western music scene there has historically been little to none. And korea isnt the first asian country to have tried to break into the western market as japan aslo tried this during the late 70s/early 80s but seeing no success. Having an all asian group wouldent appeal to western markets as an American group or such unlike an all white or black group would because the truth is asians are seen as the foreigners so having an american group with asian faces would stupidly cause questions
1D, Backstreet Boys and New Kidz were uderage when they debuted, many Disney stars too, Jackson 5 , Britney etc. people in USA don’t see you as a kid when you’re 16, 17 18 and act and present yourself as adult and talk about sex and you curse in your songs
@@dotdotdotdotdotdotdottod Why should an American have to like or listen to korean pop or jpop? Japan is super closed , nobody says shit to them. They don’t find Tyga nor Nicki that appealing. Period. Tell me, besides UK and other anglophone countries , and in recent years the addition of latin music (latin music has more than 70 years of history) and afrobeats what else is listened in USA that’s not homemade? Do you believe indian pop could or should succeed in USA? Y’all have this childish notion that América or white people owe you something. If they don’t like your music what, they’re racist?? Ask yourself this. Why is the NBA or the music industry filled with black people? Basketball in the 40s and 50s was dominated by jews . That chaged later on. Why? Maybe asians are focus on getting degrees, while other groups care less about that . The black and latin community breath music . Is in their culture. White people are the majority so it’ll be a lot of white artists. Asians just don’t care. Economically? Very well off, culturally? Very little influence til kung fu movies, anime and now KPOP and K-Cinema became popular.
@@kant.68 they dont, you missed the point. The point isnt liking kpop the point is seeing an all asian american group in mainstream media. Because truth be told americans still dont see asians as americans. So its way easier to market an all asian group as kpop, because it "keeps them in there lane" and "they never half to step foot" into there territory but if there exclusive to america they wont see it that way thell just see it as i stated above.
@@dotdotdotdotdotdotdottod true. But I don't think ANY American would like a group composed of ONE race nowadays. Especially Generation Z. We are all about diversity and what not, but seeing an all Aisan group is quite the opposite of what we want. I also think that's why Little Mix didn't break into the American market as well as they thought they would. Lack of diversity. I mean there are western groups like FLO who are all black women, but it's pretty obvious their target audience is black Americans as well. Unless the group these companies want to create are aiming for Aisan Americans as their target audience as well....then nobody else would want to see that.
so true. i think the thing they both took away from BTS' success is that the western industry is actually interested in K-pop as a whole but that's not the real reason. they're not idols, they're artists, and if those companies continue to fail to recognize that then they'll be stuck in the same place they're in right now or they'll be in an even worse position since ppl will only know them as the companies who constantly tried to force ppl to like their groups and accept the Korean industry norms
@@a.a.6789 I think HYBE has a decent idea what's needed to succeed in the American market. Right now with the endless auditions and shifts in focus it feels like the group hasn't come together for them. If JYP flops hard with A2K, and HYBE's group still isn't working in several months, I can actually see them dropping the project. At that point there would be no risk of a competitor getting a leg up on them with a localized group, and their younger Korean groups look very promising here.
Literally if they pushed skz and twice to the US in a proper way without sabotaging them (very novel and unknown concept for jype) they'd find a ton of success in the west but they are not ready to stop kissing the feet of kfans who don't even do anything for the groups
That part! Stray Kids is already in the perfect position for this. 75% of the group has a good hold on conversational English. Two of the members are Australian (and even though they've lived in SK for most of their lives), so I'd imagine that they have some knowledge of public relations with non-koreans (specifically black fans) especially when it comes to unspoken rules (some folks still feel some kinda way when it comes to non-black people rapping regardless of how good they are at it). They've sold out shows in the US before. They have a working knowledge of how to localize previously released songs (see their Japanese singles) so I can see them easily just redoing their biggest hits in English to prime the audience. They're all official adults now so they can do whatever mature concepts they want. They can stay sweet or go the Jackson Wang route at this point if they feel like it. Or both really, SKZ' best asset has always been their duality. All the groundwork has already been laid so I don't understand why they wouldn't push SKZ. Even if SKZ is just the soft launch for the new groups.
@@TajFaerie the sad truth is although most of what you said is true but skz can't go big in the us like wise txt I feel like They can eventually have big shows and headline festivals but that's it
If kpop companies aren't careful, they'll become the beany babies of pop music. In order for the big three to succeed in the usa, they need to partner with Western labels that have close relationships with Western media companies because there is a big "payola" model that often requires close relationship and have less to do with talent or music quality.
I will add that a reason kpop groups have it harder to enter the Western market is because they insist on groups only. The biggest and most mainstream artists are soloists. GP doesn't take vocal groups as seriously
the way i see it, oversaturation is gonna be one of the main reasons for kpop's eventual downfall, multiple groups debuting in the same year is obviously NOT a new phenomenon for the kpop industry but this trend of kpop companies (mostly the big 4) debuting multiple new groups in the same year can't be great for the overall market, before a company releasing two new groups in the same timespan was mostly unheard of as it would risk undermining the other groups success, yet here we are in 2023 with hybe debut njs & lesserafim in the same year, aespa has barely found their footing & sm is already planning on debuting a new gg this year itzy/nmixx are still technically rookies & jyp wants to debut like 10 new ggs in 2023 lol this is a mess and its not gonna end well, its also not fair to smaller companies as the constant big 4 debuts overshadow their groups debuts, we haven't had a big hit from a smaller company in a while because of this :(
I'm glad someone agrees with me, I don't know how these companies think that by debuting multiple groups at the same time is sustainable, bc they have to plan comebacks and events, and other promotional activities around eachother, that way they're not competing. Aespa is still young and are going into their third year yet their is no full album planned so far and compared to other sm artists all have had full albums put out in the first two years. It's so draining keeping track of all of these groups so we'll have to see.
HYBE doesn’t really count since Le sserafim and NewJeans are under different companies. HYBE is just an umbrella. Ador wasn’t going to postpone their group just because Source Music debuted their group first.
I believe if SM had given more R&B to Red Velvet and ACTUALLY bothered to promote them in the Western market, they would have been much more popular than they are. Every time a Western person reacts to Red Velvet’s R&B sides, they are blown away by their talent and music, wondering why they’ve never heard or seen them more.
Red Velvet wasn't planned as SM's new global group but to be S.E.S.'s spiritual successor, so they (sadly) never planned on really promoting them overseas as it was supposed to be the scrapped unit (That partook in Shining Star) the ones to be the global group, but SM changed plans last minute and went with the Aespa Concept instead...
that's really the biggest reason why SM fails are capturing the american market's interest the most for me. Say what you want about the american music market but it's a MUSIC market. People love to trash talk a lot of artists but pretty much all the biggest american stars captured people through their music and musical performances whether you liked them or not. Even when americans wanna trash an artist the first thing they trash is their music, they don't open up with shit like "he's a visual hole" or whatever, cause some of them aren't that good looking and in some genres it's not that much of a drag. SM has artists that are tremendously talented in music but it's always the LAST thing SM sells about them. The american market has never cared for complex storylines or shit like that, they either want you to sound heavenly when you sing or sound authentic through the lyrics. They don't care about what ever complex "concept" you're built on that would require them to read stuff and watch 20 min introduction videos. But with SM it always feels like something like that is going on, it can be genuinely overwhelming for people who are at best able to keep up with which ex taylor swift was referencing in her latest song. When the public's perception of Kpop is that it's manufactured and idols are treated like robots, coming up with gimmicks, super groups, rotations and literal AI avatars isn't gonna help your case, like read the room for 5 seconds lol. Just make good songs and cute behind the scenes videos of the idols making them and stop at that. The rest is just too much.
Joy can actually sing! That's what I appreciate. Same for Sojin of Girls Day. Too many company manufactured groups are loaded with members who may look good on stage but can't carry a note in a bucket.
What's wild to me personally is I actually think SM music wise has all they need to make it big in America, but their marketing is so trash, they keep shooting themselves in the foot. They seem to be under some illusion that Western markets' tastes skew towards what they make for NCT127 and aespa when that... couldn't be further from the truth? Even the very few SuperM songs I think are viable Western songs (Step Up and Drip in particular) are not in english and are b-sides, meaning most people won't hear them to begin with. It's baffling to watch them push Next Level globally when Baekhyun and Kai's title tracks sound straight off an American radio to me and get no push. I've never seen a more tone deaf company in my life...
red velvet & exo could be sm’s gateway to the US but they refuse to acknowledge the success both groups have gotten. I mean exo were the first to really set foot & have a shit ton of achievements both as a group & as soloists while American critics LOVEEEE red velvet’s music & everchanging concepts
@@leyn8 Red Velvet and exo have the skills and the discographies, but they don't really have the image fitting the western GP taste imo. Plus exo doesn't really have english speakers... The one SM group who had the sound and the vibe for the western market was f(x), but they never pushed them there and now it's gone.
what's very interesting with JYP (the man) is that it appears he has always fantasized about the western market. Former JYP trainee Gina Maeng talked about how he wanted to make his trainees into "the korean [insert popular western singer]", like "the korean J-LO/Beyonce" etc. Also in video tours of the JYPE buildings you can see that he designed studios to be named after/an hommage to singers that were influential to him and it's mostly or only western icons if I remember well. It's just tidbits of information but to me it shows how he always longed for the western music market and correlates to how JYPE can have a hard time being a true leader of trends and innovation, rather than following something that was initiated by others before
i think his ambition will eventually be the downfall of the company bc even tho they want to break through the global market, they have no idea how to properly do it. like SKZ and ITZY had sm potential to be some of the groups ppl talk abt all the time but bc of JYP (the company)'s inability to market them correctly they've become sort of stagnant and remain in this really weird 'in between' position where they have global fans but their global fans get mad at the company for not giving them the same amount of attention and respect as they give their Korean fans. SKZ still has creative control over their music but you can only go so far with that and i fear that eventually they'll be the next ITZY and they'll fail to truly break the 'K-pop' mold. and i think that the oversaturation of all these groups now targeting a western audience will also play a part of their downfall. ppl liked BTS bc they were niche and were a group that, in a way, broke all K-pop laws before them but now that they're all trying to force the global market to accept the whole trainee system and Korean industry norms, it's going to lead to more resistance and ppl are gonna start calling out these ideals more than ever.
Localisation really won’t be sustainable if at the bare minimum, K-pop companies don’t do their homework on the cultures of the US. Being completely apolitical, having poor appropriation scandals, or slur scandals won’t work here when it comes to longevity. Big artists like Taylor Swift and BTS couldn’t stay apolitical for long. Camilla Cabello still hasn’t lived down her terrible tumblr posts. Daniel Caesar’s sales after his comments were horrendous. Dababy has not recovered. And Jesy Nelson took a huge hit for here questionable solo debut. Gone are the days of ignoring international fans and international isssues. Whether stans like it or not, companies are going to have to appease the culture they’re trying to make money off of. Edit: Yes! The illusion of authenticity is so so so important. The west’s biggest turn off to K-pop is what makes it so difference so the balance of production and authenticity is so important. The West’s big artists are manufactured to an extent but it’s hidden very well.
Exaclty! The personality of the artist is soo important in the west. People that make trouble or say off beat things aren't so easily forgiven. They will need to do their research on what westerners like! Saying slurs of non Korean cultures will NOT fly by. All stars are manufactured to an exten imo. But I guess westerners want to feel as if they're stanning people, not robots.
@@katgreer6113 bingo! You’re so right. The entertainment industry is just as fake in the west but it’s sold as organic. And manufactured idols that have an appropriation scandal every turn may be fine in the moment but western artists don’t want to collaborate with idols that might rub their marginalized fans the wrong way.
I'm so glad someone addressed this. It's one thing to avoid the Cultural Appropriation discussion when your group is based in SK, a homogenous country compared to the USA. But if you start your group in the USA, you NEED to have a good working knowledge of the music industry's history here, especially if you have any r&b, rapping, or Hip Hop elements. The exploitation of black American musicians is a really touchy subject here right now and the excuse of 'they didn't know any better' will no longer be acceptable. It's only barely tolerated by black KPop fans as it is. If you are going to localize you have chosen to make it YOUR JOB to know the history, culture, and politics of locals and as such if you mess up it makes it much harder to recover.
THIS. These companies are from homogenous(dont know how to spell lol) countries so they get to ignore other groups, but if you want to enter the markets of these other groups, you need to get them and cater to their standards
Naur, artists (from all art forms and athletes and royals and politicians) have survived (repeated) domestic violence, other crimes, racism, colorism and more, if you have enough of an immoral fanbase you'll survive anything, more outspoken artists that are actually believable and consistent aren't as popular as the ones that are pressured into talking when something major happens that they can't ignore. Look at Cardi, Chris Brown and sooo many others, heck Rihanna has sweatshops under her belt and she's still worshiped, Jayz talks about empowerment but does the opposite and harms poor ppl and there have been protests against his event at a hotel by workers and we've seen how Beyonce (and JK but not sure how much freedom and awareness he had in performing in the WC, still shouldn't have done it though and all of it in general shouldn't have happened if it wasn't for greed) was defended recently plus all the artists that went to perform in israel and a whole eurovision was performed there and so many weirdo US artists donated money to the idf which is is insane, we're talking abt a country that elected Trump after all the outrageous things he has done and said. These groups won't succeed but that won't be why or even a problem since they'll attract kpop stans the most and they forgive anything, nct (and bts and exo and twice) have videos of them being colorist and are successful and defended in the west, youtubers like David Dobrik and friends are still here after everything and some seem to be even anti mask and vaccines besides the criminap stuff and even minilad I think is still here and so many fans defended Atrioc and I suspect he'll survive his scandal like Mizkif did and all their fans live on the internet so they know everything and still support them. Western fans are not more virtuous or hold artists accountable at all. (Plus I always see western stans defending Jackson Wang's concentration camp denial and pro-ccp nonsence, even western non-fans that are just tankies, and cultural genocide is a bit worse than cultural appropriation if you ask me)
You hit the nail on the head when you talked about the ages. Even if (and this is a big if) they made a group with a more mature concept, Kpop groups are all about youth, ESPECIALLY when it comes to girl groups. They're wanting to start them younger and younger, because on average unfortunately girl groups tend to fizzle out in Kpop once they hit a certain age. Which is a shame when you consider that boys groups are almost expected and appreciated when they have longer success. But the thing is, a lot of older or more mature western fans don't want to watch kids on stage in those mature concepts, especially when they're so young. It's like when people try to explain the idol culture in Japan and you find out that some of these super young girls are sponsored and supported by old and middle aged men. It would never fly in the west, period. BTS worked for a number of reasons- they had a great following, they were all old enough that people felt comfortable watching them, they had songs with enough English that it could be relatable for a larger market (until they actually did English tracks), and the style of their music fit in the niche of the market at the time. Sure, they went a little "bubble gum" before returning to South Korea for their solo comebacks and impending military enlistments- but even some of their harder tracks and ones that were solely in Korean did well because they'd built the brand up well. That's not something that can be so easily copied, and I don't see another group breaking through like that for a while. Especially now, with all the stories coming out about young celebrities and their experiences of abuse and trauma by entering entertainment so early- trying to introduce super young idols to the Western market is not going to go over well.
I agree. I think of twice when I see this comment. They are a legendary k pop girl group but they are known for their cute and quirky style. Twice are a youthful group. However they are all women now and can’t hold onto the cute concept anymore but I see them trying to adopt a mature one. But it’s a struggle as jype haven’t found a style that 100 percent feels mature and sounds as twice.
BTS has a great fanbase. We work as a grassroot movement. We tell others how great our artists are and why we think so. The major point is lyrics and authenticity. Try bby gang mag "BTS vs. K-pop" and "BTS: More than K-pop" Without that BTS would not have worked. Because all the other stuff is probably also existing in other groups and those would have succeeded if it was all that is. Do they only like mature girl groups with adult concepts? To succeed in the Western Industry you need something they don't have not what they already have a lot of. There so many soloist that started extremly young. Disney Club (?) brought out a lot of those singers. What an artist really needs is time to grow and not be thrown in at the top. So what if your first audience are teenagers? It can work if you are carefull and take time to built a bond. Because the West is also on an extreme youth trip if you look closer and not only Disney. All those "dark" current concepts (edgy) are not actually healthy for anyone. Take your time with an artist and let them grow little by little and tell their own story. Because that is what the West actually wants: authenticity.
@Kami I agree with much of what you said, but it's not about favoring adults. It's about the fact that while some of these artists did start young, a good percentage of them started with age appropriate music, like the first four artists you mentioned. They were Disney/Nickelodeon darlings, and had a very young audience, which is not what these K-pop giants are looking for as they want to target a much larger demographic. Even though some people like Beyonce started a bit young, she was still 18 and viewed as an adult. My older sister told me that when Rihanna debuted, there was certainly SOME backlash at first because she was only 16. But many eventually let it go because it was good music and little of what she was performing was anything to raise an eyebrow at. However, we're talking about the fact that some of these K-pop groups are debuting 13 and 14 year olds alongside people in their 20s. No one in the west is going to stan that due it it feeling inappropriate because they're children. Imagine if a group like BlackPink had a younger member like that in some of their music and concepts? I don't think they'd necessarily have the same popularity in the West that they do if that were the case, because people would feel uncomfortable despite their great tracks. Sure, they'd still have a great following but I don't believe it would transfer to some of the bigger stages they're playing on now. The previous artists you mentioned from their Disney and Nickelodeon days gained their initial following from kids because they were on kid programs. They grew up with them and when they moved to more mature music it made sense. But if you have a group that comes up suddenly mixed with both adults and minors, it's not going to have the same effect, especially if they're doing more mature music like that.
These companies are def starting to get too ambitious for their own good. Trying to make it in a market that you don't fully understand is like wandering blindly hoping you'll find your way to your destination. The difference with Hybe is the global success with their groups is natural. Aside from having an excellent marketing team, they allow their groups colors to speak for itself and have crafted an identity that is unique to them instead of relying on the Hybe brand to carry them to success. Super M failed with its goal because it was tone deaf to the fans actual wants for the company and was done in a haughty manner that left a bad taste in the mouth of consumers. These labels want easy success without having to really connect with their audiences.
Yeah. I like SM idols but SuperM was obviously not going to break any barriers like SM intended it to. I mean making a 7 member group of idols who are unknown in the west and hoping to make it big is just dumb. And their music isn't western suited at all. But HYBE is JUST as fake as any other kpop company. They know how to make their groups LOOK authentic with the creative styling and all, but it's all a facade. Sakura crying when they told Le Sserafim to diet and workout more is just another example. It's the the same old kpop company rituals.
You hit the nail on the head when talking about ambition. That's exactly why I appreciate what HYBE's been doing with their artists. They don't try to PUSH what they know won't work in such a different market. I mean, NewJeans is a great example of this. They're a fresh and vibrant group and they're using that 90s to early Y2K sound to bring out a different aesthetic. But some of the members are super young, and they're likely aware that until they build up the brand more (and most importantly let those younger members gain some age and experience) that trying to push that group overseas right away would be disastrous, even if they are super popular both at home and abroad. Because that would be the first thing that reporters would point out if they went on some of these late night programs like other singers. It also helps that more and more of these groups at HYBE have artists that are not only fluent in English, but many are incredibly familiar with Western culture, so they can be relatable because they've lived it.
Hybe is no different. Their “colors” are just as artificial as any well constructed group from any other label before them. It’s all been carefully planned.
@@momokoblue8032 The success of BTS was not planned at all. Maybe you could say this about their newer groups, but the company does try too hard to push anything. They know fans will like what comes from them anyways
@@trogdorthe8th This is so true. NewJeans is here at a time where early 2000s nostalgia is big. Even people who don’t know the girls are dancing to their songs. They didn’t have to “push” NewJeans anywhere. Of course they got exposure bc they’re under HYBE, but you can see that people genuinely enjoy their music. Heck. NewJeans hasn’t even promoted outside of Asia yet.
Ngl i feel like loona could have been that global girl group if there ass company didnt do what they are doing now. They have one of the most loyal intl fan bases and even reaching fans in markets that arnt always respected such as latin america and Europe, and let us not forget kcon 2019 where loona was litterly the main event so we all know Americans would have accepted them
@@dpgf3518 i would argue and say it peaked more around 2016, cause the only kpop that peaked was really just bts and black pink and they dont represent the entirty of kpop
Japan geo-blocking their music was a HUGE mistake. The little bit of J-Pop/J-Rock music I could get my hands on in the early to mid 2000s really made me love the music Japan produced as a whole. Then, a few years later, I couldn't even watch a full music video directly from the record company on UA-cam. I was actually looking for Jpop music when I found Kpop. I didn't know the difference until my History teacher (a Korean ex-pat) told me the people were singing in Korean, lol The music I found was SES's Red Angel, if anyone's curious. :P
@@karinasnooodles_ na it was to do with sales and pirating, Avex along with Sony and all the big labels in Japan didn't want CD/DVD/Blue Ray sales to decline so they geo blocked alot of there music and music videos and forced artist to release physical editions only of albums. This was around 2003/04/05/06 when japan was the biggest Asian music export at the time, then with the rise of the internet and sites like UA-cam and streaming and downloading platforms like iTunes, Japan and it's main music labels pushed for it's music market to stay inside of Japan. Obviously there was a few outsiders to this rule e.g:Namie Amuro, Baby metal, AKB48... Etc etc. But majority of Japan's sales where made in Japan, and it was a thing that affected there music industry because they closed there doors and left a vacant spot for kpop which was rising and fast to fill it's spot. Jpop labels even did dumb things like upload a short version of a music video on to UA-cam to force people to go and buy the bundle package of an album with a dvd and CD, or they would upload a video which was clearly shot in full 1080p quality onto UA-cam at 480p or lower resolution so it would force fans to mass buy a certain artist CDs so they could get the clear and clean version of the video. Sadly it affected alot of the newer generation artist and now Avex and Japan's major music labels are now scrambling to try and sign artist that can become as big as kpop idols, when in fact avex already had a girl group that could have done that called 'faky' but that's a different story for a different day.
Kpop is a symbol of global captialism. The kpop from 20 yrs ago was based off of western (black American to be specific) culture. We are now in an era of hyper capitalism, id love to see kpop shift to more traditional Korean elements to shift the culture back towards Korea, this could birth new genres within kpop
Back to korean culture? There isnt a modern korean culture as modern culture in general is pretty diluted with culture, aslo koreans didnt "STEAL" black culture but used it as a blue print. While hiphop started from black american comunitys korean hiphop and kpop itself used hiphop and kpop to tell there own stories making it korean in general. Now im not going to defend all of this because let us be honest there are instances of real cultural appropriation in kpop with ignorant overwashing the sources they use and ignoring who pinoneerd the genre for koreans to use in the first place, overall koreans didnt steal hiphop
@@dotdotdotdotdotdotdottod Notic how the original commenter never once mentioned the term "steal". You got defensive over a word that wasn't even mentioned. OP is right when they say that Kpop during the 90s was based off of Black American artists, while the whole Kpop idol system is a one for one copy of Japanese industry idols.
@@bebebongBaebae Without black music, neither Jpop nor kpop would exist. The Idol system is Jpop. However many of the aesthetics come from black culture and most of the music is and has always been black music centered. Hip-hop, r&b, rock & roll, rap, funk, disco, reggae, new jack swing, afrobeat, many aspects of pop music (pop derives from bebop), etc. are all black invented music. And the fact that you are uneducated about this, in denial, or you simply don't care proves why black people are always having to call out the kpop industry for appropriation.
Thank you for pointing out how the jpop industry blocking most of their mvs from being watched by international fans back in 2010s was a big dick move 😅 I remember how hard it was to watch e-girls, perfume, and a couple other jpop artists, Japanese versions of Kpop songs, or just Kpop idols singing their Japanese singles on UA-cam without having to use vpn and set my location to Japan
I remember watching the full mvs of Japanese artists I love in dailymotion and in torrent. Japan music industry really needs to destroy their barriers because theyvreally fumbled hard even tho they have the 2nd biggest music industry and they might not need international audience to earn
Exalcty! Back then, about 6 years ago I was SO into Jpop but the censorship made it SOO difficult to consume any content. The jpop industry doesn't care to appeal to outsiders and it shows. But honestly it's fine bcus they are already really successful in their own country.
Jpop would have definitely been way bigger then kpop since japan has been in the game way longer then korea and was even starting to peak up again during the late 2000s ans early 2010s seeing stars such as kyary pamu pamu and baby metal gaining attraction at a viral level, PLUS let us not forget that anime one of japans most consumed media would have been the easist way to distribute discovery to jpop as it currently dose, japan could have left no crumbs but decided it wanted to be petty. Honestly i could keep going on but its just dissapointing the more i talk about it
@@-megaera9628 Is because of that they’re so closed. But KPOP is starting to change things up in Japan and you can see the influence in modern jpop . XG is jpop but it’s clearly looking to appeal the global market and don’t be surprised if they made it in USA first than many kpop groups in the 4th Gen
i feel like if there was a group like newjeans in terms of music, and aesthetics, but with older(18-24) members, and more involvement in the music production, they would hit the jackpot.
I believe the reason why they insist in promoting XG on korean music shows is because of exposure. Their performances do VERY well, they get insane amount of views considering how new they are. It’s basically the perfect opportunity to kill 2 birds with 1 stone, promote them in korea and internationally because let’s be real, international fans are the ones that watch those the most, so it’s still for them in a sense. I think they’re trying to get a grip on the casual kpop fan before expanding even further in the west through these performances because where can they have such performances and SO many one after the other in the west? They might have good relations with industry people in Korea so of course they would use those too. It’s a good strategy in my opinion because we’ve seen time and time again how kpop fans can carry an artist to the west so more people can then be exposed to them. Plus, think about it, if you’re a business person trying to sell a product, you’d wanna go for the first demographic that would want to buy that product even if you’re plans are to expand further. In this case, who would be the first people to care about an asian girl group? Kpop fans, so it only makes sense to target them so the girls already have hype and a fanbase when trying to expand elsewhere, they don’t feel like a completely new, out of the blue artist. I think it’s too early to doubt their strategy.
i agree with you 100% and i do think it's a bit early to judge their "results" in terms of globalizing the girl group, as they've been active only for a year. i think that starting off in korea was the best decision bc of, like you said, its exposure and the entire system. also as mentioned in the video, japanese content is largely inaccessible and i'd say it's much more of a mystery to foreign fans in comparison to korea/kpop. you have a lot of stages and avenues through which you promote yourself that are accessible to not just people in korea, but globally as well. the success they have now, they would simply not have achieved if they focused their promotions on the west (for examples shows in the uk or the us). while there is a lot of daytime/nightime tv, they just don't really have people under their influence the way they used to before, or the way korean programming has. it's an entirely different culture. the intended audience demographic - the ones you want to stan you - just don't watch jimmy fallon; they watch the clips of their favorites on youtube. this will only be benefitial to them once, like bts, they have an established fanbase that can carry them with their interest, not by needing to MAKE strangers interested. it's also not easy to break into america either - little mix, literally the biggest global girl group and the only girl group with three albums that have accumulated over 2b streams each - never achieved proper success in america, largely down to poor promotions from their former management company (and they've talked about this themselves). you need concentrated efforts and promotion in order to truly make your imprint, and xg needs to grow a lot before they manage that, and i think the korean market is the most accessible foreign market atp.
XG’s strategy are actually working though. For a new Japanese girl group from an unknown company, they’ve been played in radio stations in San Fransisco.
yup, it's to get some international fans from the kpop fandom pool before they ditch SK and promote to US. Good luck in US for an all asian global girlgroup
Geoblocking has had jpop so behind kpop, it's ridiculous. I feel like so many artists and opportunities could come to them if they (jpop) weren't so focused on geoblocking. I remember when jpop was barely on UA-cam at all and kpop embraced it fully and got kpop to the masses. Jpop missed the train years ago. Avex just upset they can replicate the mass popularity that kpop has, Avex's dated now and that's something considering how Avex was in the early 2000s (with ayu)
Do you know why jpop decided to geoblock foreigner fans? It's just... Weird, to me, that a company actively decides to miss the opportunity to reach bigger audiences.
@@cc20016 i think it has smth to do with copyright? they’re very vey strict on that and as the result, they have one of the most royal fans when it comes to purchasing power
So, in conclusion, because of strict copyright they sold a lot of original albums and digital albums in Japan, and they didn't need to promote overseas? Interesting...
Honestly I don’t see kpop dying down , yes it might loose a bit of hype especially with international fans because of the over saturation but they will still be successful groups coming out , if done well by the companies. There are too many fans in the K-pop community to let kpop die down.
I mean, XG is less than a year old and penetrating Western markets takes time. South Korean music shows have a global reach because kpop has a global reach. It’s a smart first step. They’ve also been doing more interviews for Western platforms. We’ll see where they are a year or so from now.
i agree but Avex saying we don't need SK while they promote on Korean channels and their dancers are Koreans(1MILLION Dance Studio) is little dumb like i get they want vengeance or whatever but don't criticise the people that help you, if you don't need them than how about they get themselves idk American producers and choreographers.
Max matsura might be ceo of avex but XG is Simon's project don't take his words as gospel considering Simon was in a kpop group and is half korean, I doubt he'd devalue his korean side especially knowing how nationalistic Koreans are. Max is just speaking nonsense
I would say that the US wasn’t necessary looking for a pop group to fill gaps. After 1D and Fifth Harmony, no one cared about pop groups in the west, minus Little Mix who was still popular. No one really asked to make more pop groups. The interest restarted bc BTS got famous. People were talking about boy bands again. It wasn’t bc they loved BTS wanted more groups like them, but bc they wanted to create groups who they felt were “better” and could be more popular than BTS. For example, that UKpop project Simon Cowell wanted to do. Don’t know where that went or how that turned out. Since BTS got popular it was easier for kpop groups to be known in the west which is probably why more companies are pushing these local groups. They’re trying to take advantage of the door they opened. Especially since BTS are inactive as a full group since they’re enlisting.
Simon Cowell's UK-pop project was for a show, X-Factor The Band. It tanked in the ratings and was the last time XF ever appeared on UK TV. The show's boy group, Unwritten Rule, disbanded maybe a month after creation. The girl group, RLY, have done ok in the pack of TikTok girl groups and are finally gearing up to release their debut single years later after multiple lineup changes.
@@nuellawayne2308 It was mostly about his feud with Little Mix tbh. They had a group-making show coming so he rushed a shoddy show on the air to beat them. The UK-pop bit was just some noise marketing, reflecting his old-school thinking about publicity. In the end, both shows completely flopped. At least the UK has FLO now.
That group Simon Cowell formed through Xfactor the Band lost to the girl group so were never signed to his label. So he signed the girl group but one left to follow a solo career which she did quite well with. The other 4 then left Simon's label joined an US label but then one of the remaining 4 girls decided she'd rather have a family and go to university and she left to get married and have a baby and start her University part time.
I wonder if kpop companies that are debuting american groups know how the market works in the states, are they going to have them be super censored and "perfect" or are they going to feel like kpop groups, bc tbh what the korean public is looking for compared to the american market is very different. Honestly I'm not even sure if the average american teen will tune into a group like this compared to american kpop fans that are going to tune in bc this group is from the same company as their favorites.
doubt any american teens will get into gg or bg if they arent organically popular. like the most random nobody on tik tok or soundcloud will catch their attention with a self made song (sometimes good, sometimes trash) and go viral. If you present them with this perfectly packaged group, that is manufactued by a group of ppl (prob their parents age) who have to research what they like, they will sniff the inauthenticity a mile away lol
@@blu00 I feel like the average american fan is not looking for what kpop is offering, korean fans and kpop fans in general like the "perfect idol" yes american groups are not always organic but I think they present themselves differently from kpop groups so you have a point.
imo rn the groups that show the most promise are newjeans & le sserafim with the latter maybe having a slight leg up. I mean newjeans y2k/nostalgic concept fits PERFECTLY with what gen z & the American gp want in music rn + the styling is sometimes super cute & trendy. Then lsfm have a badass unapologetically themselves concept while being extremely down to earth & the biggest goofballs + eunchae is the only minor. It all depends on hybe continuing on being smart with their marketing & giving them at least a showcase tour like txt had back in the day. Oh also both groups benefit from a mix of cultures & languages which is always a bonus AND they’re ambassadors for big brands that can hopefully help them in cementing themselves into the minds of the american ppl or at least the gen z-ers
Yep, HYBE is smart in that they aren't afraid to try something that's considered new in kpop. NJ is very western sound. While lesserafim is badass feeling concept while aren't having too much girl crush. Not to mention their recent comeback is bomb. Antifragile being reggaeton inspired? 🤩👌🏻👌🏻😘 Hybe really do be trying to dip into the international market 😆
@@rayneforresy640 I also think LSF is in a perfect place to corner a space for Hybe in the japanese gg market while New Jeans could take the lead in the west. And they are still marketable to either industry for stability and their concepts dont overlap. it's very smart, they divided and are conquering!
I agree, but generally I think LSFM will have better longevity if promoted in the west compared to NJ. The top Kpop groups in the west, BTS and BP were promoted first by their fandom before being exposed to wider audiences. I think LSFM has right amount of foreign members, Antifragile replicating the current trends especially from Latin Am. music, and I think they could build a seriously loyal fanbase. NJ on the other hand has a image formed by the nostalgia of adult's teen years, very young ages and more general popularity than fandom power. But I do like both groups and interested to see how well they do if given English singles for example.
@@rayneforresy640 great point about antifragile being reggaeton inspired, it's these details, along with tapping into genz trends that I think makes the difference.
The whole thing about JYP not allowing trainees who are adults for their American groups will not only stop the group from being as successful, but it's also extremely unfair. I was also upset when I saw that the SM Global auditions didn't allow people over the age of 19 to audition. Why are they acting like being 20 years old is too late to start working towards your dreams? They are missing out on a LOT of talented people by not allowing adults to audition. I don't know why Kpop companies are so against older people debuting. What's wrong with having artists that are in their 20s and 30s? As for America wanting their girl groups to be more "mature", well I'm American and I actually prefer it if groups don't do a super mature concept. Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with groups doing mature concepts if they are old enough. I just prefer groups that do brighter and fun concepts. You mentioned that ITZY might not be "mature" enough for the American market, but they are one of my favorite groups and I personally love their concept! I even enjoy Sneakers! I mainly listen to music and watch TV shows and movies that are more family friendly, for a lack of a better word. Again, nothing wrong with the mature stuff, I'm just saying what I personally prefer. Thank you for making this video, this video was very informative and entertaining! Thank you for the effort you put into all of your videos. I hope you are happy and healthy and I hope you will have a great weekend!❤️
USA isn’t your likes . USA’s gg history: Supremes, TLC , Spice Girls, Destinys Child, Pussycat Dolls (kinda..) , Little Mix, Fifth Harmony . Nowadays USA’s culture is EXTREMELY sexual and degenerate in many ways, and that’s what the public is used to. No problem with artists breaking barriers or provoking that’s great, but when EVERYONE is doing that is becomes just the standard. I hope KPOP will change that , female American singers can be reduced to twerking, suering, metioning Balenciaga or Chanel, how much they love sex , sticking thongue out and unenspired bars. NewJeans, IVE, Itzy, Aespa and in more aggressive groups like XG add variety to the pack and that’s what USA needs: variety of female artists, specially black artists.
@@havensohn3821 That's terrible... I kind of thought the reason these companies allow young teenagers to debut was ageism against older people, but that's even worse that they're just trying to control these young artists. They shouldn't be trying to control or manipulate anyone. This is so sad honestly :(
@@kant.68 i know like this will fail most of those big gg in the west have people of color, most BIG pop stars in America are Black American. (Beyoncé, Rihanna, Mariah Carey and both Fifth Harmony and Little mix have a diversity.
I think what all these companies fail to understand the most, is it’s about the right music. That’s it. JYP’s English tracks are way too childish when there are some incredible Twice B-Sides that could kill it on an American radio. And our only 13 year old superstars came off the Disney channel and have 13 year old fans, not exactly American mainstream. HYBE has authentic elements, and they’re close to many of the right sounds, but then in management I think they’re actually starting to feel more and more like the typical K-Pop company where everything feels controlled and contrived, and that can come back to bite them in the US market. Given how all the English BTS releases sounded the same, I’m not sure they fully understand the reason Dynamite, PTD, and Butter were popular, wasn’t because of the songs themselves, it was because it was BTS releasing them. YG, it’s the music. The styling. YGs feel happens to be pretty similar to the type of feel popular in the US. It’s not genius marketing, and if they attempted to force it, I’m not sure they’d realize why Blackpink worked, and mess it up. SM are so close. Musically I think a lot of their sound would do good on American radio. Aespa’s life’s too short is the closest I’ve ever heard a K-Pop English track that sounds like it would naturally play on the radio. But they gotta drop the Kwangya and the Naevis and tone down the cyberpunk. And they gotta let loose some control of the members and marketing and let it all flow a little more naturally. And remember that the names “SM” and “NCT” aren’t going to get them any brownie points in the US, as much as they seem to keep thinking it will.
Well said. YG has always stuck to a very particular American sound. It is boring. But it sells and it works. Like McDonald's. No one can claim their burger does not taste like cardboard. But they continue to make money.
It's not about making kpop artists anymore. It's about debuting as many groups as possible, getting them to generate as much money as they can with whatever popularity they can get, then moving on.
Also very much disagreeing with the whole "bts were taken seriously in America because they were REAL artists" that's completely not true. Their biggest American hits are manufactured basic American pop, has nothing to do with their artistry or whatever. The same goes for Boy with Love. In fact I would say their more artistic driven songs were more recognized in SoKor. DNA, BST and Fake Love are considered BTS classics but they are more successful in SoKor than they were in USA. The reason that bts is as successful as they are is well their fanbase.
I literally just said this same thing to someone under this same video. I don't think a lot of people understands where BTS truly got their game from because it wasn't their music Not saying their music is bad, but if they stuck to their Korean roots, they would have never got this far. Especially if they didn't have the fans they have
@@LovelyKissess exactly! There's a reason why people unstaned them when they became mainstream bc they were doing mainstream stuff. Saying the permission to dance is some short of proof of bts' artistry is laughable. Especially when you compare it to spring day, who is one of their most successful songs ever in SoKor. No bts have found the foundation of the most important thing for an artist, a strong fan base.
@@gwgwap It's also one of the reason a lot of people unstan them once they start to get into other groups. I'm just glad you see it. Too many people turn a blind eye to that truth. The fandom, not the music did a lot for Bts
@@LovelyKissess They have stuck to their Korean roots. Their fanbase pushed them to the top all the way. Just because they blew up after DYNAMITE because they reached the general public like me does not mean that their fanbase was not already SOLID YEARS BEFORE. You people honestly dont use your brain when you talk.
the statement from avex 💀 it’s giving envy and idk how they’re promoting in sk with that mindset… it was very interesting to watch this as an asian (not korean) myself, i’m pretty much not affected by the western market, kpop will always have a market elsewhere
Avex shoulda promoted their other labelmates first in SK instead of just now suddenly promoting XG... Avex had so much potential under its wings that never got to fly🙄
Japan, Korea, and China are known for nationalism and a lot of pride in their countries, that has a lot to do with it. Still, it's very reminiscent of Cultural Appropriation Cake Shop.
Yea that statement was a choice and tbh leaves me feeling icky about checking out the group ( which I know is super unfair to those girls because they had no say in what the company put in the statement )
i think it’s interesting how u pointed out the promise twice has shown in the western market. like u said, i feel like the company was probably betting on itzy to be the one to break into the market since they were being promoted there a bit more, but they might’ve not seen the results they were hoping for. i feel like jyp wasn’t expecting twice to get the momentum that they’ve gotten internationally & i think they’re going to focus more on pushing their new American girl group instead of pushing twice, the group that’s already starting to break into the market
@@gwgwap i mean the fact that they’re able to chart at all is impressive enough. only 5 kpop groups have ever charted on the hot 100 & they’re one of them
@@gwgwap They did really well with their recent album. Although Talk That Talk wasn’t that successful, the album itself sold a lot. Alcohol Free was a Korean release and did extremely well. Of JYP would promote them better, they’d get even farther. Even if they have to sing in English, why is that a big deal? Who cares if it’s english. It doesn’t take away from them being kpop
I feel like this was bc of their bubblegum pop concept. The US usually like more mature concepts, so they probably weren’t expecting them to do well. Twice proved that they could do well with their concept. I mean look at them now. They’re accepting an award at the Billboard Women In Music Awards! They’re being recognized for their music and work on the billboard charts
Kpop execs seem to want the Western market without really understanding it. There are a lot of norms in the kpop industry that won't fly as well in the American market (training system, presence of minors, overt disdain for darker skin, strict body standards, etc.). That's not mentioning the unfortunate anti Asian sentiments. But on a musical level, I agree that I'd rather go to the source. Americanized kpop just sounds bland to me.
I too prefer the members to be adults, but i HATE how focused on sex most western music is. I definitely would not listen to kpop songs that were westernized in this manner, and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
omg i agree! there is nothing wrong with being explicit of course, but someone's gotta be modest too, just to balance it out, you know? i feel like there is no balance regarding that in western music right now, and there needs to be one.
Whenever I think of groups that could make it over to the mainstream Western market, KARD and NewJeans have the most promise to me. Their style of music seem genuinely Western, and not in the form of “jumping on the Kpop bandwagon when you don’t actually like the music.” I also think Lesserafim’s concept would be excellent, as they have a mature, elegant vibe to them.
New jeans's type of songs definitely leaning more to the international market. As someone who's only liking certain groups, I'd say yes, their songs is one that I'd casually listen to and would be in my playlist. BUT I wouldn't watch any of their performance simply because I don't like watching teenagers 🤷🏻♀️. Their concept is fine tho. Literally just school girls, crushes and so on. Which appeals very well to people regardless of country and culture. Their youth is their strength and also a weakness imo. Some like it, some dislike it, such as me 🤷🏻♀️. Lesserafim on the other hand, with their recent comeback definitely trying to grab the international's attention and they're pretty successful imo. Antifragile is reggaeton inspired, and the reaction vids and comments that I've come across are positive. Their members are mostly of age, with eunchae being the only kid there. I'm hoping HYBE can follow the hype train after Antifragile. Overall both groups are successful in domestic and international. HYBE does know how to attract us after all 😂. So I won't be worried about them.
kard has been doing latin inspired music since pre-debut and i think it was an excellent move as its what got them recognized overseas, and they were also pushing the envelope of what was being released at the time. i definitely think they would have blown up more if the climate they were debuting in was one closer to now - where bad bunny is the biggest artist in the world, as well as artists like rosalia as i feel like they really championed respect and attention towards latin/spanish music beyond a singular hit here and there - but hybe has definitely capitalized on that success now i feel (and goes towards the point op made of bh seemingly knowing what the western audiences want) which is seen in how (to me at least) lss' antifragile sounds like it's a cut track from MOTOMAMI (saoko + chicken teriyaki even in the point choreo, and the girls themselves used rosalia as an album spoiler) and i'd say txt leaned towards latin influences in their current comeback. i'd also argue that as much as being co-ed adds obstacles (as the system just isn't set to recognize mixed groups in korea) it also made them more accessible as well as intriguing to the western public. if only dsp had the resources to really push them in the us/uk and add to their efforts in latin america, they'd definitely establish themselves as a global group.
I think generally the idea was for xg to promote in Korea and capitalize on the western interest in kpop - which makes sense, given how so many kpop companies are making big western pushes. So if xg is already catered to the west (musically, linguistically, etc), isn’t it easier to debut them within the preexisting niche market of western eyes on kpop before branching out into the general public? Their cyphers have already hit the general public on social media, so it seems that the marketing has already done what it was intended to do. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them at 88rising in a year or so, but most if not all of those artists were already pre-established in east asia before joining up with the label… gotta start somewhere, and the xg marketing seems quite a clever move.
88Rising have already found their "Babymetal" in the form of Atarashi Gakko and are working hard to promote that group, abroad. I doubt they have time for XG right now because the goal for 88Rising is to break Atarashi Gakko globally.
Not to be rude, but K-pop won't be sellable in the western music industry. Western fans hate lip-syncing which is something that is becoming too prominent in kpop and "perfect" stage performances. The difference between a western singer and a kpop is singer is too great when you compare their live stage performance. Westerns like to see and hear the raw vocals and expressions of singers, while kpop is too overly practice to the point that the performance doesn't feel authentic. 4th gen performances have been disappointing me lately, caring way too much about camera angles and looking good. If they keep this up when globalizing kpop, they'll quickly loose heat.
K-pop needs to stay as K-pop. Popularity comes to those who have a specific niche that’s not over saturated. Western music like relatability, entertainment and good beats and not the things K-pop put importance on like visual perfection, synchronized dances and highly polished social etiquette Sure there is a market for that in the west and that’s currently being filled by K-pop. Trying to make an “American” pop group won’t work unless it fills all current western interests: body positivity, racial diversity and equality
@@HailToTheMeep That's what I'm saying. K-Pop is a musical type, not a genre. The reason why "Pop" is attached to it. So that leaves a great question, what is "K-Pop"?
Thank you. A Western Kpop group is something that nobody in the west wants. Only kpop fans would be interested and it would be hard to replicate another BlackPink that could have so much success in the west.
@@HailToTheMeep contemporary pop music based in Korea and having the main language be Korean. often influences of R&B, dance, hip hop, funk and reggae.
I think the most successful path to a "localization" is what Blackpink is. Pretty much 3 foreigners + 1 full Korean that align more with western values and society. That have already the backing of the k-pop community and now are getting more western recognition from the general public. I could see Blackpink promoting more and more in the US in the future and less in Korea. So that when they disband Lisa, Rose and Jennie have already cemented their place as global stars and can can branch out to any area of their liking anywhere in the world, and Jisoo who is the least interested in the foreign market can comeback to Korea as a member of the "legendary girl group" and resume her career as an actress. This is what JYP always wanted but due to his narrow view of music and women and general, can not make any of his GG stick in the US.
Well…jennie lived in NZ 4 or 5 years, Rose still a korean girl, just with her heavy Australian culture attached to her korean culture. Lisa is a budist thai girl that is just naturally inclined to dace and perform and to american culture, but still a thai girl who won’t eat certain foods because of her religion.
Ok. Once thing that needs to be adressed is this biased stupid view that EVERYONE AROUND BUT YOU is sexist. YGE is a COMPANY. A BUSINESS. Not a person, they don’t owe you music because “muh gender” , depends on many people and many factors. And ALLL YGE artists take forever to release music. Both men and women. Why this stupid trend to call everything misogyny?? How’s that helping anything???
@@kant.68 they still lean more to the western side so pointing out that x e y has Korean ancestry doesn’t really say much about the main point of original comment which it is how blackpink is way more relatable to westerners because most of the group is way more westernized than the average Korean/Asian who never set a foot outside Asia
I think that the group should mainly be Asian Americans with a few Americans of different races. There is a gap in the music industry of Asian Americans, and a diverse group pulls in more listeners in USA. Plus there won't be a language/culture barrier. Also I think the groups should be atleast be 17 and older. Really 19 -25 is like the perfect age so that they can do college campus festivals and concerts, and be more relatable to college/ upperclassmen high school students while not being too young for older listeners. They should not copy Blackpink in their formation. That worked for Blackpink, but it won't work for a group that will debut in the USA. Really trying to copy BTS or Blackpink is setting your group up for failure or short term success. The general public gets tired of seeing the same thing over and over. That is why pop groups are not popular anymore.
I’m surprised you haven’t talked about AleXa (I know you’re talking about groups but) because I feel like besides for BTS or Blackpink. She’s been like the third person to kinda crack that American localization. I mean she performed at an NBA halftime show and won the American Song Contest which was on NBC. For me, she feels like the kpop version of a western idol. I feel the same way towards Jessi, ChungHa and surprisingly Sunmi where I know of them for themselves rather than their company
That’s only because solo artists don’t hold the interest of most Kpop stand so folks don’t really think about what labels they are signed to, because fir the most part they are all signed to small labels.
@@lisaadams7339 she’s still a kpop artist in my opinion as she started her career in SK, and still promoted in SK. But rn she’s doing a world tour following the success of her at the American Song Contest
AleXa is American born and raised. So rather than say she "cracked" American localization, she's just pivoted to a market that she's a better fit to navigate culturally because it is her culture. And she has the benefit of being a solo act, so doesn't have the burden of hard-carrying the promotions of group that she is the lone American member of. She doesn't have to sell group chemistry while translating for her members who are sitting behind her like deer caught in headlights.
Success of a k-pop group in Korea can be manufactured, but globally it cannot. The first global success will depend on how multi-cultured the artists and producers are. Culture drives music.
Ngl this "localisation" thing is going to be a hard sell. The appeal of kpop (apart from the music, performance etc) is infact rooted in its asian-ness. Like the impact is huge and asian 'aesthetics' are at an all time high in popularity at the moment. But then again we know very little about the projects itself. And if they really go through won't it actually be detrimental to the groups already debuted in the korean industry who do western promos?
Tbh the 4th gen music just doesn’t hit the same honestly. I’m younger than most of the 4th gen idols and tbh the only groups that actually make sustainable music is new jeans, loona, ateez, and txt (in my opinion) I just think people are tired of kpop music that just sounds like noise. 4th gen music has become tiktok music and cash grabby.
I don't think kpop is dead, but we are definitely seeing a sea change where kpop as a whole needs to do some revamping before it loses its edge to another music market. In SM's case, their lack of follow through and stubborn adherence to the kwangya concept is killing them. They have all the resources needed to break the American market (western producers, songwriters, industry connections, etc) if they wanted to, but they just throw them over here without any research or long term plan. SuperM's debut was a rushed, half-assed attempt without a plan, especially considering half the members were about to enlist. The localization strategy they did with BoA and TVXQ in Japan could work here, but they don't want to invest the time or energy it requires. I also think they expected the SM name to carry them, but they are a small fish in a very big (and racist) pond over here -- without researching how the American music market works, they'll continue to fail. English is a huge factor, but they also need to study the foreign pop groups who made it big here and specific reasons why. Kpop fans in America don't want knockoffs of songs we already hear on our radio stations, we want something unique and fun.
I’m surprised you didn’t talk about yge. Lots of their artists started breaking into American market. PSY, CL, Blackpink. Among the other companies yg style is the most “western” and appealing to global fans. They don’t plan to make any global gg because they already have BP but I wonder how will they manage Babymonster. Will they target the American market or just leave it to happen naturally? 🤔
I was surprised she didn't mention YGE too but I feel like YG's approach might be also kinda dangerous to some extent. Because, as you said, their style is so clearly inspired by the western scene, in particular hiphop, to sell in the US is like adding water to the sea. They found tremendous succes with it in Korea because, starting in the 90's, the korean public became fascinated with American hiphop so giving that american style in a language they understood better will always be jackpot, but it makes no sense to try that in america where the OGs are at and still setting the trends that YG is blatantly following. It will never be big or sustainable with multiple groups. It's like an american company making croissants and trying to sell them on mass in France. They might give it a go here and there but you'd need to close down every goddamn bakery in france for it to truly catch on sustainably Sure BP sells decently in the US but they're alone in doing that with their style so it's not enough to say it's that viable. And even then, they are not viewed better there than any western artists with a similar style. They are nowhere near being taken seriously in the west and why would they? Their style is heavily inspired by American Hiphop, a genre that is strongly gatekept and typically has a high bar for authenticity. It will inevitably make the americans most familiar with that style feel like they are just being served their own food in a different package, and given how hiphop fans are, they are likely gonna rip into them. For starters they don't write their own raps, and having ghost writers is the biggest blow in hiphop. On top of that one can't ignore the racial element of this because it's America we are talking about. Whether you personnally care about that subject or not, cultural appropriation is very controversial in the US, and i think that if YG are not carefull they might expand to a part of the american public who will bring up that subject BECAUSE YG tends to be so "western" (which is to say they take the most blatantly after african american art and artists personas). There are still a lot of people who don't care about that, but the African american audience already is very critical of Kpop for that reason. I don't believe that BTS for instance would manage to escape those accusations for a second if they still presented as they did during their debut and Hybe is very much aware of that. YG has always been very proud of their "in house" approach, meaning they are mostly korean people making music that is vastly inspired by black art, down to their rampant use (and misuse) of AAVE. On some level they are lucky not too much of the Black American public has heard of them cause Blacktwitter would be filled with thinkpieces about that alone for weeks.
@Elisa Soh This breakdown is so on point and why one can argue that despite the numbers they pull, BP are still niche and not the household names some Blinks like to think they are. If they had the level of exposure that Iggy Azalea had in 2014/15, they would have been eviscerated by Black Twitter the way she was. You can see in western interviews when BP is asked about their hip hop influences or Jennie/Lisa get asked about rapping that they are quick to downplay or divert to another topic to not get caught out as not being hip hop heads. CL actually has a hip hop appreciation and can cite her influences that show up in her work like you know she really does love some Lauryn Hill and studied her among others like Method Man. There are other exceptions too and there maybe some in Babymonster, but if YG wants to have an American group in the YG brand, they would need to go the route of BTS and have that group get mentored and study under some credible names in the American scene.
@@thaddaeuselliott3884 Nah cause for real, when Black twitter had the whole debate in 2020 about Gen Z building entirely online personas around appropriating AAVE on tiktok and calling it "internet slang" I could only imagine how they'd react to Lisa going on stage at some american award show to say "you can finna catch me". And yeah, totally agree with your last point. I think because of the history of hiphop and the exploitation of black artists in the american industry in general, when you're not black, you have to PROVE that you learned hiphop from black people or they'll just won't let you sleep. When BP were asked about hiphop in that Time's magazine article (IIRC) last year and they said that to them hiphop is about being cool like Rihanna (who isn't even a hiphop artist like what???), that was truly jarring. You can't walk around in the american scene as a non black person saying stuff like that about hiphop and come out of it alive lol. They are very VERY protective of hiphop. You just gotta do better. And the sad thing is Lisa for instance could be a great rapper. She has a good flow but she really needs to learn from the OG if she's gonna sport a persona that is so blatantly copypasted of off all the prominent black female rappers of the 2010's. Kpop fans hate to hear this but the success of blackpink is a testament of how minuscule the black kpop community is and how, for a LOT of kpop fans, kpop was their introduction to hiphop. Ain't nobody who's deeply familiar with the likes of Lauryn hill, Missy elliot, Little Kim, Nicki, Cardi, Megan just to name a few, out there thinking BP is break some new grounds that would wow the american public. If anything they are incredibly underwhelming and limited because they, and YG in general in my opinion, have a very shallow understanding of hiphop. That's why I won't hold my breath for baby monster. There are not a lot of hiphop teen acts in the West for a reason, it takes a certain age to fully get hiphop and delivery in a serious, respectful and interesting manner. It takes time to form an artistic persona in general and kids aren't good at that. With the ages of Babymonsters, i bet that to me at least, it's just gonna look very unserious.
They entered, attempted, and left. They did NOT BREAK into. YG replicate Black America to a point where it wont work these days. How many cultural appropriation accusations have they faced? Nah. Not with Gen Z.
Japanese rock bands became huge in the west in 2000/10 but when they started to become more westernized , releazed full albuns in english and so on - they flopped!!! And I think the same is about to happen to kpop. Kpop blew up in the west bc is was different… once is not that different anymore… the hype will be gone
love your video! i was just talking yesterday about how xg is really just a kpop group with japanese members. i think they would've been a bit more successful promoting in japan as a niziu rival, or in the usa through... whatever methods. but i agree that a global group doesn't really seem to be avex's aim. i think the most important part of launching a western "kpop" group will be understanding western music tastes and what they want to see in an "idol," but i do think that most companies have too strong of a vision to be able to acknowledge that and become successful
You're right about western marketing prefer older people in girl group, when fifth harmony started Ally was the only one over 18, and the debut song had an empowered message but it the concept was kinda cute and childish, their popularity exploded when they released "with it" treat had a more mature concept. But I feel bad because still some of the members were underage at that time. I think what a makes a group work it's giving the a concept that fits with their looks and age, maybe that's why new jeans has been standing out among all the 4gen groups, they are teenager who looks like it, act like teenagers and not trying to appear more mature. The same goes for western groups adult women, who act like adult women.
It should be fine to seek older trainees. I think age 18-30 is more appealing than having kids who hadn't finished school on stage. The oldest kpop idol I have heard to ever debut was Kahi from Afterschool and she was 29.
Maturity and the illusion of authenticity... I think you hit the nail in the head. Sometimes I wonder if some of these kpop labels have even done their research on past boy/girl groups in the states before they start dreaming about their localization success. Like, some of the groups they're selling are clearly nothing what people here are looking for. lol
Just like le sserafim. Their creative team obviously did research om ehat westerners want. I mean, Anti Fragile is literally Regatteon/Latin music beats. Just with Korean people singing it.
Source team did good in marketing them as strong independent and chic group. Mixing a bit of there training with their personality, you have 2 very successful idols, one trained ballerina, a Korean American with years of training and survival show experience and to balance it out you have a maknae who is the wild card trying to make her name
Essay incoming I think you hit the nail on the head but theres one important thing I think you missed and that's vocal ability. The USA puts way more stock into who can actually sing well, especially when comes to any songs that directly appeal to Black Americans. So anything that sounds even close to RNB, the vocals will be scrutinized more. As a new fan of Kpop, I've noticed how often the backing tracks are holding down the vocals while the idols give some of the most amazing dance performances I have ever seen. But I was looking at the best-selling girl groups of all time and even though 2NE1 made it to #4, the list was filled with women who can really SANG. Not sing, SANG the house down without moving. The Spice Girls, The Supremes, The Andrew Sisters, TLC, Little Mix, Pussycat Dolls, etc. And who else was also on that list? Destiny's Child where Beyonce would SANG and DANCE without needing to pick one over the other. And GG aside who are our most ubiquitous idols right now? Ariana Grande, Chloe Bailey, Taylor Swift, Bruno Mars & Anderson Paak, Lady Gaga, Doja Cat, Adele, Jazmine Sullivan, Lizzo, Billie Eilish, SZA, Harry Styles, etc. These people can really sing. Some of them don't even need to dance because their voice is enough. I rarely see that with Kpop groups. TWICE despite their ubiquity in SK only made it to #12 with Girls Gen right underneath them. If any of these SK companies wanna do nearly as well in the US as they have in SK they need to put just as much effort into singing training as they do into dance training because when I watch the award shows, it feels like I'm watching SYTYCD, not a vocal performance. Ironically, Hyolyn would be a good idol to push because she's one of the few I've seen with her mic on. The other is Baekhyun. And maybe, if I'm being nice, Changbin and Han from Stray Kids but even then it was only in their "I'll Be Your Man" Kingdom performance that I feel like I actually heard Han. Everyone else? Once they start dancing it feels like their singing is weak/underdeveloped and that doesn't fly as well in the US. Heck, even Chris Brown had to prove to us he could sing once we got tired of his flips. I've seen some of my K-pop favs, just stand there and sing for radio performances and vocally... it's lackluster af. tl;dr None of this localization will work in the US unless they get back in that voice class and run them scales.
I was thinking the same. These recent groups are putting too much emphasizes on dancing and not singing. I can only think of 1 good singer in 4th gen kpop rn which is saying something....
@@tusi1032 It's also possible that as a professional singer, I just care about more than other fans (and fans who are okay with the singing suffering to produce great dance ARE ALSO VALID) but like, it's music? You don't NEED to be a great dancer to create music but if you're a vocalist of any kind that vocal technique got to be strong. Not just to sound good live, but also for their health in the long run. Just out of curiosity, in your opinion, who is that one good singer in 4th gen Kpop?
@@Onceadive yeah that's my point. Kpop in general takes very heavy black influence and we black pol never get mad abt it. Even Latin influence now. Antifragile by Le Sserafim is so clearly regatteon influenced HEAVILY. And people credit it to kpop as if they made it . TXT's popular bside Tinnitus is 100% afro beat. Koreans complaining is just so hypocritical.
oh you’re definitely right about the American general public being more interested in more adult girl groups, especially with FLO blowing up. I honestly think that’s gonna be a reason why most companies aren’t gonna succeed with these projects 😭
This "localization" issue has been weighing on my mind for a while! I feel like JYP and HYBE are shooting themselves in the foot partnering with the US labels to create these "localized" groups for the Western market. The US (and, consequently, the worldwide) audience will see these new groups as "homegrown" and will not associate them with the Korean labels, rendering their attempts at global expansion futile.
The problem is a lot of these Kpop companies act like they understand the American music industry when in fact they absolutely have no understanding. I also don’t get who would be in these groups. Like are they going to be Asian Americans, Koreans just working in America, or groups of just Americans without having to be Asian? When it comes to managing these groups I personally don’t think these labels (other then Scooter Braun) would be able to handle a group of Americans. I don’t see that working culturally and see there being problems in the future
Exactly. The cultural difference alone will be a massive problem if they’re trying to manage actual American idols and not just Korean idols focused on America
Whatever XG original plan was, they were quite successful in gaining attentions by promoting in South Korea. Korean music shows are where international KPop fans gathered to look for what's hot. While XG's music is not KPop per se but they fit perfectly with the current taste of music KPop fans want these days. When SHOOTING STAR was just released, it became trending topics in US, Indonesia and maybe other countries too. Quite a smart move and good achievement for a Japanese girl group from a relatively unknown company.
The style alone is pure kpop (rnb is only one part of kpop). That they are not Korean (1 or 2? at least half Korean) and singing only in english doesn't necessarily mean they don't fit this market. Shooting Star could be for Purple Kiss, Chung Ha or aespa and Koreans will say it's kpop.
@@shinobione2575 hip hop and rnb also exist in kpop (please describe Chung Ha's music. Right, it's also rnb). kpop is not only pop. kpop describes almost everything coming from Korean music, pop, rnb, hip hop, even metal and rock (ever heard of Dreamcatcher? ^^) but based on idol culture. And XG's hip hop style isn't something new in the kpop market. The only difference is that they sing only in english (what other artists also did like Rosé and also Twice with their English tracks) and that they are all Japanese. btw Japanese idols exist in kpop. They work in Korea for a long time now. They also come from China, Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand, USA, Russia... (but ofc they sing in Korean).
@@TomsMusicCorner look at you acting like kpop's genre was not inspired by the west or that Japan doesn't have those genres as well. So cute listen to their songs they sound more pop than kpop.
I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts of the SM 3.0 "Multi Production Center/Label" plans. I think it has some thought behind it, but I'm also worried that SM can't keep up with their vision, and it'll be a mess. Edit: I'm also worried about oversaturation. I dunno if their plans of debuting 2 new groups a year is even viable, and even if they manage to do it, I'm worried for the longevity of those groups.
SM couldn't even keep all their promises from the 2022 Company Report so I'm taking it with a grain of salt. They're aware of the fans concerns regarding the management and expansion of their artists. Talk is cheap though.
@@Boss_4545love The AGE OF CONSENT IN JAPAN IS NOT 13. That's the lowest age a prefecture can choose from, no place in japan has their age of consent as young as 13. This is a lie made by actual pedophiles please stop spreading this around
@@Boss_4545love In Korean law, they use International age. And Korean age is actually going away; it will take some time to get it out of people's system tho.
As an American, the concept of taking Kpop culture to america is bizarre. Work culture is entirely different in the US, so trying put the same trainee system is useless. The average teen is having trouble just doing their schoolwork. Even if people do actually willingly do it, likeliness is their going to give up from the harshness of it.
In my opinion it's better for Korean companies to focus on South Korea first, and if their groups manage to make a name for themselves in the country, then start pushing them abroad.
On paper this sounds sensible. But look at BTS and Big Hit. If you are a small company trying to make it big you will struggle locally given how tightly connected the traditional Big 3 kpop companies are to South Korean media institutions. So going overseas first is now an approach many are pondering for themselves.
I also wanted to add that in regards to Avex, they’re their own worst enemy sometimes. At least in my experience when it came to listening to music from their groups (Prizmmy, Iris, Prismbox etc.) Avex almost never uploaded full versions of their songs (unless they uploaded performance videos) on UA-cam and or other streaming platforms so most of the time, the only way you would be able to listen to their music was through fan uploads which I think was a bad move because not making their music widely available kind of shot themselves in the foot. I LOVE XG but I feel like Avex isn’t holding THEMSELVES accountable for not increasing music distribution and having their groups do more global efforts.
Some companies in Japan, not just in entertainment, have been known to be very xenophobic. They refuse to work with other companies if they are not Japanese, for example. They see this as "stooping beneath their level". I can hear the resentment in whoever represents Avex in that statement. As if they are saying that Japan will always be far superior to South Korea but if they must use South Korea to proof this then so be it.
Thats not exclusively Avex's problem, it's pertinent to Japan as a whole. If XG can be successful, it can be a great signal to Japan to start changing their ways of doing business.
Avex did try to promote they Artists international People justreally dont want to listen to Japanese Music. Many Japanese Artists tried to promote international and it never worked.Im not saying its not their own that they arent bigger international im just saying their not the only once at Fault
Masato Matsuura is not Avex's CEO, please make a better research about your sources of information, that 'statement' is known for have been maliciously mistranslated in Korean forums with the porpuse of promote xenophobia against XG, Avex was the first to brought Kpop to Japan (Boa, TVXQ) so they've play a big role in the expansion of the Korean wave, this is why XG is getting an space in Korea, Avex is very respected and has the contacts that proves it, please don't spread false information.
I disagree I believe sm can make it if they step up marketing and promote more rnb and hip hop sounds, allowing their artist creative freedom as well....exo and red velvet had potential and still do
they need to go back to their strengths, like they got it at one point but idk i'm not too confident they know what they're doing right now. i'm excited to see what they do this year
@@hibeautym i believe the avex ceo has said xenophobic things abt koreans & the reason xg is even performing on korean music shows is to “show korea that Japanese artists can do anything korean artists can do”. to which if u ask me, i don’t rlly mind that they’re promoting in sk since they do want to target international audiences & both japan and america has like ZERO music shows for the girls to perform on.
For JYPE, they have shown as of late they can't even accommodate their Korean fans so moving to the US at a time like this could hurt what foundation they do have with Twice, and Stray Kids. Additionally, the Korean system has little difference to those of the American early 2000s. It's just the Korean side has been put it out for fans to see move recently. One only needs to look at Making the Band 3 to see the American machine is just as cruel. Either way, the process will not be easy for whomever does it. Lastly, XG company's statements leave a very bad taste in my mouth. While I know it is only pop music, if one knows the history of Japan and Korea, it may sound like some very different.
if the knetz knows of their statement it wouldn’t end well. especially with the history of japan invading korean. they do not take well on japanese saying things like that which i understand bcs who would? japan never even acknowledged what they did during the war time and i’m saying this as someone whose country suffer bcs of japan invasion
It's unfair to XG though because that statement wasn't from their company directly but from the CEO of the parent company Avex. XGALX's producer Simon tried to clear up some misunderstandings in his own post recently. I do think that Matsuura is an idiot for saying those things but really, it wasn't a statement from XG at all and it's just sad that people latch onto the words of this old guy that probably still has some xenophobic views like most older generation does. I'm sure XG will have a bright future, not sure about their big claims to be the biggest in the world (why is that so important?) but the girls seem genuine enough and very hardworking, so I'm sure they'll have a strong fan base. People are quick to generalize everything without diving deeper into the issue but I guess that's OK, we can't expect everyone to be in the loop and pass their free time researching stuff about groups that don't exactly interest them. I just hope people refrain from parroting what's being said online without first informing themselves first.
I think Kpop is slowly dying, nowadays there is like 5 groups debuting in a year like Hybe with Le Sserafim and New Jeans and JYP with Itzy and Nmixx, I know itzy are not rookies but before companies used to debut other groups like 3-4 years after the group, so that it doesn't create competitions between groups. In less than 5 years Hybe is going to debut a total of 6 groups--> TXT, Enhypen, Le Sserafim, New Jeans, plus Pledis new boy group who is supposed to debut in 2023 and I-Land female version). This is creating a saturation in Kpop which is going to cause it's downfall.
There's probably more than 100 groups debuting in a year. And true, back then there were far less debuts in the entire industry not just the big3, but as a whole. There's was less than 10. But now...
I have a hard time imagining the KPop training system working in America. Americans have very low tolerance for child labor. You can get them to look the other way if kids in Asia or Africa are working hard making cool fashion or electronics. But if you’re talking about American children? Here? Zero tolerance! The sacrifice expected of idols is analogous to that of Olympic athletes. However the importance of the Team USA to national pride is so great that the whole enterprise is treated as “virtuous” at least in its intent. Therefore it’s… OK for kids to move away to a training camp. Even then, scandals of mistreated athletes are common. On the other hand, the entertainment industry is regarded as almost the opposite of virtuous. It would be hard to accept 13-17 year olds being separated from their family, school and friends to make cool music videos!
The training part needs to change. If the minimum training age were 17, and training was done here in the States, that would make a difference. Western sensibilities would allow a wider range of candidates as well. Older, different nationalities, people who don't meet the traditional Korean beauty image.
American artists already go through years of training. It's just not talked about or publicized. Training never started with Kpop. American pop stars such as Britney Spears and NSYNC started it. Kpop just copied it.
you finally got the most important point i wanted to highlight and i still do which is debuting adults, i don’t know one bonus about debuting minors that adults can’t do
The only plus I can see is appealing to younger kids. When I was a kid there were a couple western groups I listened to that had really young members (all minors). And I didn't really think about their ages because my focus was mostly on the music, but I felt much better as a 10-14 year old girl liking a group made of kids around my age instead of a group that was older. Like their songs were more relatable because there were around my age and it wasn't overly sexual or explicit like older groups.
@@crystalsnow1138 yeah but those are kid groups for a reason like there’s an actual category for that they release a couple songs and maybe perform in some venues
@@HailToTheMeep Yes but localizing to American fans comes at a cost. We are very touchy with child stars right now because many of them have since grown up and are detailing how horrible the experience was for them. From Justin Bieber singing about being extremely lonely to Demi Lovato singing about their eating disorders to Jennette McCurdy expressing relief at her momagers death in her podcasts and book, selling child stars in the west requires a level of finesse that I'm unsure if SK companies are prepared for. And tbh this trend of exposing the horrors of being a child star started years ago with that biopic of Michaels Jacksons' abuse at the hands of his father so this isn't even a completely new thing. They can do it but if I were a CEO I would hedge my bets and start with an 18/19 year old at the youngest. Because then no one can accuse me of exploiting a minor.
KPOP is entering it's JPOP ERA, So oversaturation and localization will characterize this new era Also, As it happened already, Many groups will just die off overseas and some will just now chart at all/people just won't be interested... Also, Some people will just not care for Korean Idols anymore and even imply their local groups are "BETTER" or "SUPERIOR". The only one I can see this not happening is NCT as their fandom is gonna become like the Hello Pro!, AKB; EXILE, Sakamichi ones, eventually supporting all overseas and korean units😍
I think hybe has the best chance of establishing the first big american gg, whenever i listen to a newjean's or lesserafim song i always think to myself "hey this song could become a big hit in the US" their musical style is very appealing to western gp's easy listening. Imagine a western gg with a diverse line up singing a song like cookie, hybe boy, attention, ditto or omg! Those songs would become popular on tiktok!
I don't think new jeans is ready for that since the majority of them are still minors and that could make the label's rep go down. However lesserafim have a very strong concept that could appeal to a wilder Western audience.
@@sowhat1674 NWJS goal imo is to cement themselves as 4th leaders in sk for the next 2-3 years before making a big push in the US. They have several english speakers an interesting marketing strategy and easy-listening sound. Lesserafim have the best shot at becoming big in US right now.
There’s a reason why most companies have been releasing English recently. The K-Pop hasn’t been creative lately and they haven’t been much viewing as it was before. Most English songs have been cringe, XG has been doing it right ever since( they’ve been getting interviews a lot recently) as their songs are originally English and not translated from Korean. XG promoting in Korea is just for exposure which is actually smart because of Japan’s copyright laws.
Not Avex having a revenge and blaming K-Pop while as far as I know, J-Pop is less popular because Japanese government did the geoblock because of "oh yeah Japanese music market is big we don't need to promote our musics outside of Japan, and also copyright!" 😭 If they want to be big, then why they promote XG in Korean music shows? Just promote them globally. Look at current J-Pop artists like Yoasobi, Fujii Kaze, Kenshi Yonezu and so many more. They can be successful in their own way without K-Pop/South Korea as their main motive. Sure, those J-Pop artists are not as popular as K-Pop does, but both J-Pop and K-Pop have their own niche. I see Avex being jealous with K-Pop because they are the next big thing (and revenge because K-Pop is inspired by their Japanese idol culture) without realizing that K-Pop also have their own problem.
They were trained under Korean academies. It doesn't matter where they go. If they were to show up in Korean shows they'd get attacked for it because it's not sung in Korean language or for their CEO's problematic statement which STILL needs further debunking. If they were to promote outside of Korea, Koreans would tell them they are under Korean influence, when in reality yes it is, but at the same time it's not. It's just a bitter confusion, but not at the same time because it's a global approach, XG is not mainly going for K-Pop, but it's their best way to connect with the rest of the world. The fact you're comparing them to artists such as Yoasobi, Fujii Kaze, Kenshi Yonezu, etc, we do not know their motives for how they want their growth to be like. Everyone has the desire to go at their own pace. The whole "revenge" or "jealous" arguments is pathetic. You're not only labeling them, but you're dragging down something you don't know that has true passion for what they do. You can tell people write those down to be passive aggressive towards XG and their company when we literally don't know their intentions, but to just be a rising star. Be realistic.
@@Jojnny I'm agree that they can do whatever they like, it's just that their statement sounds too passive-agressive for me, it's almost sounds like "revenge" and "jealousy" (they sounds like J-Pop are never popular and K-Pop steals idol culture from them while the problem is the geoblock in the first place). I hope they wrote it better. I thought the company said that?
@@rafarania1524 When you say their, we're talking about the same person right? We're talking about the previous CEO of Avex, Max Matsuura, the one who stepped down and had the guts to state something which is blown out of proportion due to mistranslation? Because if we are talking about Max, then yes it could possibly, I said "POSSIBLY" be that, but if you're going to include XG and Simon Jakops a part of this, then the argument is already invalid as they have nothing to do with him. Marketing wise, why would they bother with what he says. If I were the XG girls and Simon, I wouldn't say anything about the case. But to keep XG successful, they need to have a roof and training under some label that has already accepted such as XGALX, run by Simon Jakops, the half korean/japanese and ex South Korean Idol. If they were to state their opinion about Max being so "rude", which we still don't know the exact translation, could be bad as they can get kicked out from the company for being disloyal. If we had a proof of who the translator is and they should be Japanese instead of some other decent because they could always change up the words if they're not a true Japanese blood translator. And you did say it "sounds too passive-aggresive" for you... for YOU. It could be posted as that, but we need to figure who the translator is and if it's true. Even if he was to say something, Simon Jakops is the one to manage XG anyways and they shouldn't have to deal with his negativity because we know Max has bad reputation with celebs decision wise.
It is “oversaturated” because companies target the already existing pool of listeners, they are not looking into expanding the kpop market as a whole (although you can argue that New Jeans is currently breaking that rule and reaching new audiences). Companies are happy to easily fill their pockets by releasing 10 different versions for a mini album rather than investing in better music production.
i dont think companies have any knowledge of global markets. the reason newjeans is blowing up on global spotify is because their music is exactly what a lot of people ww listen to on a daily basis anyways. sm pushing aespa when hyperpop is a very niche genre with a very specific audience makes zero sense. they also dont realise their best shot and making it in the west isnt through good morning america, its through catchy fun trends like the OMG edits on tiktok and marketing your songs just like a western artist would (like playlisting).
I think you are a bit biased while speaking about XG. Of course, Max Matsuura is an idiot (not even japanese like him actually) and he already resigned from his position as a CEO. But to go as far as saying the girls of XG (and their manager and producer Simon for that matter) are in any way involved in some sort of a revenge plan, it's quite far fetched. They've been training for 5 years, and the irony is they did it mostly in South Korea. So i would say they are working just as much as any other k-pop group. Is their music kpop? Or is it j-pop? Or xpop or apop? Who cares?! Maybe some fanatic knetz. Good music is good music and hate becomes a mental illness already. Simon knows no better than k-pop ever since he was a member of DMTN. He knows the system, he has the skills, he has the connections and he works hard to bridge the KOR/JAP music. WHile there's so many japanese idols in South Korea already, the thing that XG sings in english and not korean seems to be the main issue. Made up by korean netizens if you ask me. But again, i do agree with them that Matsuura's statement were sooo out of place. Anyway, Simon said recently XG is going to bring korean as well as japanese content also, besides the english one. I'm looking forward to see how much hate they will get then. If they will bring korean content and then japanese, knetz will go bonkers that while you promote in KR you should not aso sing in japanese. If it's the other way around it will be just as bad if not worse. Oh well... regardless of XG's strategy one thing is certain: the groups is being bashed for no reason. Ah sorry, they are bashed because they said their role model is "mom". Of course it is. The best answer to that question. It would have been weird if they answered mom to the question "Who's your favorite artist in South Korea".. yes... 🙄
Too flower boy-y . Bsides BTS you won’t have a korean 1D in USA unless you change the focus of the marketing. Not only appealing to teen girls but the GP , meaning more masculine looking men and DIFFERENCE, if you sound look and dance like BTS that’s a bad sign
they should because skz's music does appeal with usa audience but jyp would be dumb to do that before the peak with South Korea. Bts and Bp were already mega phenomenons in their home country before they went to become mega phenomenons in Usa
"Artistry" has absolutely nothing to do with it. If you know anything about western "artists" is that they mostly contribute nothing to these songs that are hits or even classics. The labels in the west do not give these people creative control. Some of the biggest songwriters in the west banded together to not let these huge artists to bully them into giving them songwriting credits. BTS was not respected because of their music. Actually, they were disrespected because of xenophobia/racism and misogyny to ARMYS being teen girls. But capitalizm prevails racism and since you can profit off of bts, they were giving entry.
Hybe and YG are the most likely to succeed in America because of their style and their sound. And Teddy already said it in Ligtup the sky documentary "Why Kpop is the name of Korean music when they only doing pop like in America..." Yg is already thinking of music not only Kpop
Translting the k-pop formula to America won't work, I don't know why they are pushing it this hard. Korean music is already popular in the west the way it is, they don't need to reinvent the wheel, they just need to promote in the "west" more. Also, I wanted to say that I really appreciate your editing style, you always choose footage that fits what you are saying perfectly! This is exactly how video essays should be done! Paired with your knowledge about the industry, it's just chef's kiss!
There are some Western Girl groups coming up! Boys world is just an example. So it will be interesting to see how these kpop companies compete with the resurgence of Girl groups we are seeing now
Oh yes! I love Boys World too! They seem to be a well rounded group and I really want them to start the girl group trend in the west again! Kpop is good but it's feels so plastic and fake sometimes. We need a breath of fresh air with western groups! There's the added plus of diversity!
I am sorry but boys world is one of the worst examples. I like their music but they are at the same level of success as Fifty Fifty or Xg. They are not relevant or impactful, they don't chart or the average American knows their existence.
the whole way xg is marketed and promoted is such a mess like they are modeled after a kpop group but are all japanese and singing in english for a global audience yet also aggressively being pushed in korea?? make it make sense
They want to be seen as a kpop group since its beneficial for them to be accessible to international fans. Its seems to be working with how popular they are online and the music slaps.
@@havensohn3821 I mean international jpop fans are out there, some who even stan kpop. they're accessible bc they upload videos with content easily available, unlike other JP artists. but by promoting as kpop, they are not letting them stand on their own, even in Japan. kppp artists still promote as KPOP artists
The reason XG is promoted in South Korea is to tap the International K-Pop market that follows the big TV shows that promote K-pop. I'd say it was a good move since they blew up rather quickly through word of mouth in social media after showing up in Korean tv.
Yes. Technically only 2nd and 3rd gen active groups. 4th gen groups have been using the base and popularity 3rd gen made to attract the new kpop fans. Mostly hybe groups. Even tho most have unique concept. 60% of their population came from BTS and how Bts made hybe a well earning company. Same case with JYP,SM and YG. Twice,exo,RV and blackpink,s fame is being bashed from 4th gen groups. You can't deny my opinion
Really honestly talking kpop as every music genre is eventually going to downfall, not for a real reason but because as shown in the past no genere is forever, '70 ' 80 '90 rock for example, black metal, folk music etc... Every genre had a gold year but always end up failing when people (not everybody but a good majority) get bored and decide to switch which is just really normal. Look at Ariana Grande, Billie eilish or similar artist, they aren't less popular obv but people do not worship them as back in the day. For kpop is the same, is also worth noting that kpop often time shown us that is never really 100% about music and honestly I just don't feel like people are going to love this illusion forever, kpop will eventually die. Aside groups/artists that made the history (for example queen, Whitney Hudson, nirvana, Kate bush, bjork, Tupac etc...) is really hard for a genere to live forever.
The choreo and stage presence of KPOP aside, it's the melodic music of the genre that attracts many people who might eventually burn out on Hip Hop. The language of the music doesn't matter as much as the sound. Twice recently completed a very successful US tour singing in Korean. Their current release in English has 51 million+ views on their official UA-cam channel, when their other releases would be in the 9 figure range by now. For continued success, KPOP has to understand what draws fans to this genre and allow it to evolve naturally. But what entertainment company would accept this approach? Honestly, we're going too deep into something that thrives on the whims of a generally young fanbase that can't be predicted accurately.
That is why Newjeans was able to gain immediate success, all their music is targeted to become famous in western so they decided to make it the most generic pop song.
if only people cared to give groups like flo, citizen queen and boys world the attention they'll give other groups solely for the company reputation... talent exists and it's there people just don't seem to care - and it's sad that seemingly only company affiliation might make them. (just commenting on what exists in the uk/american market now - as flo is breaking into the us as well)
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That is such a great point about American audiences preferring girl groups to be composed of adults. I feel like that's the fundamental mismatch between kpop production companies and American audiences.
Let us not forget about the racial identy of these groups as well. Even though it seems like it wouldent be a big deal unfortunately when it comes to kpop or asians in general in the western music scene there has historically been little to none. And korea isnt the first asian country to have tried to break into the western market as japan aslo tried this during the late 70s/early 80s but seeing no success. Having an all asian group wouldent appeal to western markets as an American group or such unlike an all white or black group would because the truth is asians are seen as the foreigners so having an american group with asian faces would stupidly cause questions
1D, Backstreet Boys and New Kidz were uderage when they debuted, many Disney stars too, Jackson 5 , Britney etc. people in USA don’t see you as a kid when you’re 16, 17 18 and act and present yourself as adult and talk about sex and you curse in your songs
@@dotdotdotdotdotdotdottod
Why should an American have to like or listen to korean pop or jpop? Japan is super closed , nobody says shit to them. They don’t find Tyga nor Nicki that appealing. Period.
Tell me, besides UK and other anglophone countries , and in recent years the addition of latin music (latin music has more than 70 years of history) and afrobeats what else is listened in USA that’s not homemade? Do you believe indian pop could or should succeed in USA?
Y’all have this childish notion that América or white people owe you something. If they don’t like your music what, they’re racist?? Ask yourself this.
Why is the NBA or the music industry filled with black people? Basketball in the 40s and 50s was dominated by jews . That chaged later on. Why? Maybe asians are focus on getting degrees, while other groups care less about that . The black and latin community breath music . Is in their culture. White people are the majority so it’ll be a lot of white artists. Asians just don’t care.
Economically? Very well off, culturally? Very little influence til kung fu movies, anime and now KPOP and K-Cinema became popular.
@@kant.68 they dont, you missed the point. The point isnt liking kpop the point is seeing an all asian american group in mainstream media. Because truth be told americans still dont see asians as americans. So its way easier to market an all asian group as kpop, because it "keeps them in there lane" and "they never half to step foot" into there territory but if there exclusive to america they wont see it that way thell just see it as i stated above.
@@dotdotdotdotdotdotdottod true. But I don't think ANY American would like a group composed of ONE race nowadays.
Especially Generation Z. We are all about diversity and what not, but seeing an all Aisan group is quite the opposite of what we want. I also think that's why Little Mix didn't break into the American market as well as they thought they would. Lack of diversity.
I mean there are western groups like FLO who are all black women, but it's pretty obvious their target audience is black Americans as well.
Unless the group these companies want to create are aiming for Aisan Americans as their target audience as well....then nobody else would want to see that.
You hit the nail on the head with sm and jyp, these projects of theirs will flop if they don’t optimize to fit the western taste.
so true. i think the thing they both took away from BTS' success is that the western industry is actually interested in K-pop as a whole but that's not the real reason. they're not idols, they're artists, and if those companies continue to fail to recognize that then they'll be stuck in the same place they're in right now or they'll be in an even worse position since ppl will only know them as the companies who constantly tried to force ppl to like their groups and accept the Korean industry norms
I completely agree but I honestly think the hybe group will flop too💀💀
@@a.a.6789 I think HYBE has a decent idea what's needed to succeed in the American market. Right now with the endless auditions and shifts in focus it feels like the group hasn't come together for them. If JYP flops hard with A2K, and HYBE's group still isn't working in several months, I can actually see them dropping the project. At that point there would be no risk of a competitor getting a leg up on them with a localized group, and their younger Korean groups look very promising here.
Instead of creating a new group for Western audiences, Jyp should focus on pushing Stray Kids which already has a huge fan base outside S. Korea
Literally if they pushed skz and twice to the US in a proper way without sabotaging them (very novel and unknown concept for jype) they'd find a ton of success in the west but they are not ready to stop kissing the feet of kfans who don't even do anything for the groups
RIGHT?? I always wonder why not push Straykids?
@@HailToTheMeep i think they push straykids alot? I see ads on facebook and yahoo pop ups multiple times
That part! Stray Kids is already in the perfect position for this. 75% of the group has a good hold on conversational English. Two of the members are Australian (and even though they've lived in SK for most of their lives), so I'd imagine that they have some knowledge of public relations with non-koreans (specifically black fans) especially when it comes to unspoken rules (some folks still feel some kinda way when it comes to non-black people rapping regardless of how good they are at it). They've sold out shows in the US before. They have a working knowledge of how to localize previously released songs (see their Japanese singles) so I can see them easily just redoing their biggest hits in English to prime the audience. They're all official adults now so they can do whatever mature concepts they want. They can stay sweet or go the Jackson Wang route at this point if they feel like it. Or both really, SKZ' best asset has always been their duality. All the groundwork has already been laid so I don't understand why they wouldn't push SKZ. Even if SKZ is just the soft launch for the new groups.
@@TajFaerie the sad truth is although most of what you said is true but skz can't go big in the us like wise txt I feel like
They can eventually have big shows and headline festivals but that's it
If kpop companies aren't careful, they'll become the beany babies of pop music.
In order for the big three to succeed in the usa, they need to partner with Western labels that have close relationships with Western media companies because there is a big "payola" model that often requires close relationship and have less to do with talent or music quality.
I will add that a reason kpop groups have it harder to enter the Western market is because they insist on groups only. The biggest and most mainstream artists are soloists. GP doesn't take vocal groups as seriously
Miss A from JYPE could have gone far in the western music market, right? Good music, good concept.
I'm glad to see a Morning Musume clip as one of the Jpop girl group examples!🤩
I've said for years I want adult idols, not anyone who was a trainee at 8-12 and debut at 13/14
Agree😭
Well too bad lol
@@norabeckwith6893you’re weird
@@marquisehebbler9471 what
I know, right? Thats just sad, at least make them 19 and up for debut.
the way i see it, oversaturation is gonna be one of the main reasons for kpop's eventual downfall, multiple groups debuting in the same year is obviously NOT a new phenomenon for the kpop industry but this trend of kpop companies (mostly the big 4) debuting multiple new groups in the same year can't be great for the overall market, before a company releasing two new groups in the same timespan was mostly unheard of as it would risk undermining the other groups success, yet here we are in 2023 with hybe debut njs & lesserafim in the same year, aespa has barely found their footing & sm is already planning on debuting a new gg this year
itzy/nmixx are still technically rookies & jyp wants to debut like 10 new ggs in 2023 lol
this is a mess and its not gonna end well, its also not fair to smaller companies as the constant big 4 debuts overshadow their groups debuts, we haven't had a big hit from a smaller company in a while because of this :(
I'm glad someone agrees with me, I don't know how these companies think that by debuting multiple groups at the same time is sustainable, bc they have to plan comebacks and events, and other promotional activities around eachother, that way they're not competing. Aespa is still young and are going into their third year yet their is no full album planned so far and compared to other sm artists all have had full albums put out in the first two years. It's so draining keeping track of all of these groups so we'll have to see.
I thought Sm was gonna debut the new girl group in 2025
totally agree. I also think this relates to the premature (and abundant) disbandment of recently debuted groups
@@clorinha omg! that is such a good point too, that opens a whole new can of worms as well.
HYBE doesn’t really count since Le sserafim and NewJeans are under different companies. HYBE is just an umbrella. Ador wasn’t going to postpone their group just because Source Music debuted their group first.
I believe if SM had given more R&B to Red Velvet and ACTUALLY bothered to promote them in the Western market, they would have been much more popular than they are. Every time a Western person reacts to Red Velvet’s R&B sides, they are blown away by their talent and music, wondering why they’ve never heard or seen them more.
Red Velvet wasn't planned as SM's new global group but to be S.E.S.'s spiritual successor, so they (sadly) never planned on really promoting them overseas as it was supposed to be the scrapped unit (That partook in Shining Star) the ones to be the global group, but SM changed plans last minute and went with the Aespa Concept instead...
@@kyokugo6460 sadly a missed opportunity.
@@kyokugo6460 for a “scrapped” group, they sure showed them.
that's really the biggest reason why SM fails are capturing the american market's interest the most for me. Say what you want about the american music market but it's a MUSIC market. People love to trash talk a lot of artists but pretty much all the biggest american stars captured people through their music and musical performances whether you liked them or not. Even when americans wanna trash an artist the first thing they trash is their music, they don't open up with shit like "he's a visual hole" or whatever, cause some of them aren't that good looking and in some genres it's not that much of a drag.
SM has artists that are tremendously talented in music but it's always the LAST thing SM sells about them. The american market has never cared for complex storylines or shit like that, they either want you to sound heavenly when you sing or sound authentic through the lyrics. They don't care about what ever complex "concept" you're built on that would require them to read stuff and watch 20 min introduction videos. But with SM it always feels like something like that is going on, it can be genuinely overwhelming for people who are at best able to keep up with which ex taylor swift was referencing in her latest song.
When the public's perception of Kpop is that it's manufactured and idols are treated like robots, coming up with gimmicks, super groups, rotations and literal AI avatars isn't gonna help your case, like read the room for 5 seconds lol. Just make good songs and cute behind the scenes videos of the idols making them and stop at that. The rest is just too much.
Joy can actually sing! That's what I appreciate. Same for Sojin of Girls Day. Too many company manufactured groups are loaded with members who may look good on stage but can't carry a note in a bucket.
What's wild to me personally is I actually think SM music wise has all they need to make it big in America, but their marketing is so trash, they keep shooting themselves in the foot. They seem to be under some illusion that Western markets' tastes skew towards what they make for NCT127 and aespa when that... couldn't be further from the truth? Even the very few SuperM songs I think are viable Western songs (Step Up and Drip in particular) are not in english and are b-sides, meaning most people won't hear them to begin with. It's baffling to watch them push Next Level globally when Baekhyun and Kai's title tracks sound straight off an American radio to me and get no push. I've never seen a more tone deaf company in my life...
Seriously...
Ngl Kai has the sound and the visual/aura to actually make it in the western market.
red velvet & exo could be sm’s gateway to the US but they refuse to acknowledge the success both groups have gotten. I mean exo were the first to really set foot & have a shit ton of achievements both as a group & as soloists while American critics LOVEEEE red velvet’s music & everchanging concepts
@@leyn8 Red Velvet and exo have the skills and the discographies, but they don't really have the image fitting the western GP taste imo. Plus exo doesn't really have english speakers... The one SM group who had the sound and the vibe for the western market was f(x), but they never pushed them there and now it's gone.
Seulgi, mark, kai, baekhyun and taemin are such clear cases of being perfect for the western market yet none of them are being pushed to that.
what's very interesting with JYP (the man) is that it appears he has always fantasized about the western market. Former JYP trainee Gina Maeng talked about how he wanted to make his trainees into "the korean [insert popular western singer]", like "the korean J-LO/Beyonce" etc. Also in video tours of the JYPE buildings you can see that he designed studios to be named after/an hommage to singers that were influential to him and it's mostly or only western icons if I remember well. It's just tidbits of information but to me it shows how he always longed for the western music market and correlates to how JYPE can have a hard time being a true leader of trends and innovation, rather than following something that was initiated by others before
isnt he the same man that rejected that one got7 members song cuz it sounded too western???? 😭
Right that's why I always found it ironic that JYPE is called the "Leader in Entertainment" 💀
i think his ambition will eventually be the downfall of the company bc even tho they want to break through the global market, they have no idea how to properly do it. like SKZ and ITZY had sm potential to be some of the groups ppl talk abt all the time but bc of JYP (the company)'s inability to market them correctly they've become sort of stagnant and remain in this really weird 'in between' position where they have global fans but their global fans get mad at the company for not giving them the same amount of attention and respect as they give their Korean fans. SKZ still has creative control over their music but you can only go so far with that and i fear that eventually they'll be the next ITZY and they'll fail to truly break the 'K-pop' mold. and i think that the oversaturation of all these groups now targeting a western audience will also play a part of their downfall. ppl liked BTS bc they were niche and were a group that, in a way, broke all K-pop laws before them but now that they're all trying to force the global market to accept the whole trainee system and Korean industry norms, it's going to lead to more resistance and ppl are gonna start calling out these ideals more than ever.
and jype stans gets triggered when we say this lmao
Well said
Localisation really won’t be sustainable if at the bare minimum, K-pop companies don’t do their homework on the cultures of the US. Being completely apolitical, having poor appropriation scandals, or slur scandals won’t work here when it comes to longevity. Big artists like Taylor Swift and BTS couldn’t stay apolitical for long. Camilla Cabello still hasn’t lived down her terrible tumblr posts. Daniel Caesar’s sales after his comments were horrendous. Dababy has not recovered. And Jesy Nelson took a huge hit for here questionable solo debut. Gone are the days of ignoring international fans and international isssues. Whether stans like it or not, companies are going to have to appease the culture they’re trying to make money off of.
Edit: Yes! The illusion of authenticity is so so so important. The west’s biggest turn off to K-pop is what makes it so difference so the balance of production and authenticity is so important. The West’s big artists are manufactured to an extent but it’s hidden very well.
Exaclty! The personality of the artist is soo important in the west. People that make trouble or say off beat things aren't so easily forgiven. They will need to do their research on what westerners like! Saying slurs of non Korean cultures will NOT fly by.
All stars are manufactured to an exten imo. But I guess westerners want to feel as if they're stanning people, not robots.
@@katgreer6113 bingo! You’re so right. The entertainment industry is just as fake in the west but it’s sold as organic. And manufactured idols that have an appropriation scandal every turn may be fine in the moment but western artists don’t want to collaborate with idols that might rub their marginalized fans the wrong way.
I'm so glad someone addressed this. It's one thing to avoid the Cultural Appropriation discussion when your group is based in SK, a homogenous country compared to the USA. But if you start your group in the USA, you NEED to have a good working knowledge of the music industry's history here, especially if you have any r&b, rapping, or Hip Hop elements. The exploitation of black American musicians is a really touchy subject here right now and the excuse of 'they didn't know any better' will no longer be acceptable. It's only barely tolerated by black KPop fans as it is.
If you are going to localize you have chosen to make it YOUR JOB to know the history, culture, and politics of locals and as such if you mess up it makes it much harder to recover.
THIS. These companies are from homogenous(dont know how to spell lol) countries so they get to ignore other groups, but if you want to enter the markets of these other groups, you need to get them and cater to their standards
Naur, artists (from all art forms and athletes and royals and politicians) have survived (repeated) domestic violence, other crimes, racism, colorism and more, if you have enough of an immoral fanbase you'll survive anything, more outspoken artists that are actually believable and consistent aren't as popular as the ones that are pressured into talking when something major happens that they can't ignore. Look at Cardi, Chris Brown and sooo many others, heck Rihanna has sweatshops under her belt and she's still worshiped, Jayz talks about empowerment but does the opposite and harms poor ppl and there have been protests against his event at a hotel by workers and we've seen how Beyonce (and JK but not sure how much freedom and awareness he had in performing in the WC, still shouldn't have done it though and all of it in general shouldn't have happened if it wasn't for greed) was defended recently plus all the artists that went to perform in israel and a whole eurovision was performed there and so many weirdo US artists donated money to the idf which is is insane, we're talking abt a country that elected Trump after all the outrageous things he has done and said. These groups won't succeed but that won't be why or even a problem since they'll attract kpop stans the most and they forgive anything, nct (and bts and exo and twice) have videos of them being colorist and are successful and defended in the west, youtubers like David Dobrik and friends are still here after everything and some seem to be even anti mask and vaccines besides the criminap stuff and even minilad I think is still here and so many fans defended Atrioc and I suspect he'll survive his scandal like Mizkif did and all their fans live on the internet so they know everything and still support them. Western fans are not more virtuous or hold artists accountable at all. (Plus I always see western stans defending Jackson Wang's concentration camp denial and pro-ccp nonsence, even western non-fans that are just tankies, and cultural genocide is a bit worse than cultural appropriation if you ask me)
You hit the nail on the head when you talked about the ages. Even if (and this is a big if) they made a group with a more mature concept, Kpop groups are all about youth, ESPECIALLY when it comes to girl groups. They're wanting to start them younger and younger, because on average unfortunately girl groups tend to fizzle out in Kpop once they hit a certain age. Which is a shame when you consider that boys groups are almost expected and appreciated when they have longer success. But the thing is, a lot of older or more mature western fans don't want to watch kids on stage in those mature concepts, especially when they're so young. It's like when people try to explain the idol culture in Japan and you find out that some of these super young girls are sponsored and supported by old and middle aged men. It would never fly in the west, period. BTS worked for a number of reasons- they had a great following, they were all old enough that people felt comfortable watching them, they had songs with enough English that it could be relatable for a larger market (until they actually did English tracks), and the style of their music fit in the niche of the market at the time. Sure, they went a little "bubble gum" before returning to South Korea for their solo comebacks and impending military enlistments- but even some of their harder tracks and ones that were solely in Korean did well because they'd built the brand up well. That's not something that can be so easily copied, and I don't see another group breaking through like that for a while. Especially now, with all the stories coming out about young celebrities and their experiences of abuse and trauma by entering entertainment so early- trying to introduce super young idols to the Western market is not going to go over well.
Agreed
I agree. I think of twice when I see this comment. They are a legendary k pop girl group but they are known for their cute and quirky style. Twice are a youthful group. However they are all women now and can’t hold onto the cute concept anymore but I see them trying to adopt a mature one. But it’s a struggle as jype haven’t found a style that 100 percent feels mature and sounds as twice.
BTS has a great fanbase. We work as a grassroot movement. We tell others how great our artists are and why we think so.
The major point is lyrics and authenticity.
Try bby gang mag "BTS vs. K-pop" and "BTS: More than K-pop"
Without that BTS would not have worked. Because all the other stuff is probably also existing in other groups and those would have succeeded if it was all that is.
Do they only like mature girl groups with adult concepts?
To succeed in the Western Industry you need something they don't have not what they already have a lot of. There so many soloist that started extremly young. Disney Club (?) brought out a lot of those singers.
What an artist really needs is time to grow and not be thrown in at the top. So what if your first audience are teenagers? It can work if you are carefull and take time to built a bond.
Because the West is also on an extreme youth trip if you look closer and not only Disney.
All those "dark" current concepts (edgy) are not actually healthy for anyone. Take your time with an artist and let them grow little by little and tell their own story. Because that is what the West actually wants: authenticity.
@Kami I agree with much of what you said, but it's not about favoring adults. It's about the fact that while some of these artists did start young, a good percentage of them started with age appropriate music, like the first four artists you mentioned. They were Disney/Nickelodeon darlings, and had a very young audience, which is not what these K-pop giants are looking for as they want to target a much larger demographic. Even though some people like Beyonce started a bit young, she was still 18 and viewed as an adult. My older sister told me that when Rihanna debuted, there was certainly SOME backlash at first because she was only 16. But many eventually let it go because it was good music and little of what she was performing was anything to raise an eyebrow at. However, we're talking about the fact that some of these K-pop groups are debuting 13 and 14 year olds alongside people in their 20s. No one in the west is going to stan that due it it feeling inappropriate because they're children.
Imagine if a group like BlackPink had a younger member like that in some of their music and concepts? I don't think they'd necessarily have the same popularity in the West that they do if that were the case, because people would feel uncomfortable despite their great tracks. Sure, they'd still have a great following but I don't believe it would transfer to some of the bigger stages they're playing on now. The previous artists you mentioned from their Disney and Nickelodeon days gained their initial following from kids because they were on kid programs. They grew up with them and when they moved to more mature music it made sense. But if you have a group that comes up suddenly mixed with both adults and minors, it's not going to have the same effect, especially if they're doing more mature music like that.
@@ruthfischer7615 Couldn't have said it better.
These companies are def starting to get too ambitious for their own good. Trying to make it in a market that you don't fully understand is like wandering blindly hoping you'll find your way to your destination. The difference with Hybe is the global success with their groups is natural. Aside from having an excellent marketing team, they allow their groups colors to speak for itself and have crafted an identity that is unique to them instead of relying on the Hybe brand to carry them to success. Super M failed with its goal because it was tone deaf to the fans actual wants for the company and was done in a haughty manner that left a bad taste in the mouth of consumers. These labels want easy success without having to really connect with their audiences.
Yeah. I like SM idols but SuperM was obviously not going to break any barriers like SM intended it to.
I mean making a 7 member group of idols who are unknown in the west and hoping to make it big is just dumb. And their music isn't western suited at all.
But HYBE is JUST as fake as any other kpop company. They know how to make their groups LOOK authentic with the creative styling and all, but it's all a facade. Sakura crying when they told Le Sserafim to diet and workout more is just another example. It's the the same old kpop company rituals.
You hit the nail on the head when talking about ambition. That's exactly why I appreciate what HYBE's been doing with their artists. They don't try to PUSH what they know won't work in such a different market. I mean, NewJeans is a great example of this. They're a fresh and vibrant group and they're using that 90s to early Y2K sound to bring out a different aesthetic. But some of the members are super young, and they're likely aware that until they build up the brand more (and most importantly let those younger members gain some age and experience) that trying to push that group overseas right away would be disastrous, even if they are super popular both at home and abroad. Because that would be the first thing that reporters would point out if they went on some of these late night programs like other singers. It also helps that more and more of these groups at HYBE have artists that are not only fluent in English, but many are incredibly familiar with Western culture, so they can be relatable because they've lived it.
Hybe is no different. Their “colors” are just as artificial as any well constructed group from any other label before them. It’s all been carefully planned.
@@momokoblue8032 The success of BTS was not planned at all. Maybe you could say this about their newer groups, but the company does try too hard to push anything. They know fans will like what comes from them anyways
@@trogdorthe8th This is so true. NewJeans is here at a time where early 2000s nostalgia is big. Even people who don’t know the girls are dancing to their songs. They didn’t have to “push” NewJeans anywhere. Of course they got exposure bc they’re under HYBE, but you can see that people genuinely enjoy their music. Heck. NewJeans hasn’t even promoted outside of Asia yet.
It's not gonna "die" , it'll just come down from it's peak.
Clickbait
Ngl i feel like loona could have been that global girl group if there ass company didnt do what they are doing now. They have one of the most loyal intl fan bases and even reaching fans in markets that arnt always respected such as latin america and Europe, and let us not forget kcon 2019 where loona was litterly the main event so we all know Americans would have accepted them
Kpop peaked in 2020 during the pandemic, since 2021 it has been in decline
@@dpgf3518 i would argue and say it peaked more around 2016, cause the only kpop that peaked was really just bts and black pink and they dont represent the entirty of kpop
@@dotdotdotdotdotdotdottod Kpop def peaked the most in 2018 imo
Japan geo-blocking their music was a HUGE mistake. The little bit of J-Pop/J-Rock music I could get my hands on in the early to mid 2000s really made me love the music Japan produced as a whole. Then, a few years later, I couldn't even watch a full music video directly from the record company on UA-cam.
I was actually looking for Jpop music when I found Kpop. I didn't know the difference until my History teacher (a Korean ex-pat) told me the people were singing in Korean, lol
The music I found was SES's Red Angel, if anyone's curious. :P
I think it's because Japan didn't want Korea and the US to be inspired or rip their music style and industry
@@karinasnooodles_ na it was to do with sales and pirating, Avex along with Sony and all the big labels in Japan didn't want CD/DVD/Blue Ray sales to decline so they geo blocked alot of there music and music videos and forced artist to release physical editions only of albums. This was around 2003/04/05/06 when japan was the biggest Asian music export at the time, then with the rise of the internet and sites like UA-cam and streaming and downloading platforms like iTunes, Japan and it's main music labels pushed for it's music market to stay inside of Japan. Obviously there was a few outsiders to this rule e.g:Namie Amuro, Baby metal, AKB48... Etc etc. But majority of Japan's sales where made in Japan, and it was a thing that affected there music industry because they closed there doors and left a vacant spot for kpop which was rising and fast to fill it's spot. Jpop labels even did dumb things like upload a short version of a music video on to UA-cam to force people to go and buy the bundle package of an album with a dvd and CD, or they would upload a video which was clearly shot in full 1080p quality onto UA-cam at 480p or lower resolution so it would force fans to mass buy a certain artist CDs so they could get the clear and clean version of the video. Sadly it affected alot of the newer generation artist and now Avex and Japan's major music labels are now scrambling to try and sign artist that can become as big as kpop idols, when in fact avex already had a girl group that could have done that called 'faky' but that's a different story for a different day.
Exactly the same. I found k-pop because of jpop because I couldn't consume jpop
@@karinasnooodles_ That makes no sense bc Japan ripped from other industries mainly America
@@staycsprinkles3777 and america didn't 💀??
Kpop is a symbol of global captialism. The kpop from 20 yrs ago was based off of western (black American to be specific) culture. We are now in an era of hyper capitalism, id love to see kpop shift to more traditional Korean elements to shift the culture back towards Korea, this could birth new genres within kpop
Back to korean culture? There isnt a modern korean culture as modern culture in general is pretty diluted with culture, aslo koreans didnt "STEAL" black culture but used it as a blue print. While hiphop started from black american comunitys korean hiphop and kpop itself used hiphop and kpop to tell there own stories making it korean in general. Now im not going to defend all of this because let us be honest there are instances of real cultural appropriation in kpop with ignorant overwashing the sources they use and ignoring who pinoneerd the genre for koreans to use in the first place, overall koreans didnt steal hiphop
Kpop was also HEAVILY based on the Japanese music industry. The whole idol system is Japanese.
@@dotdotdotdotdotdotdottod Notic how the original commenter never once mentioned the term "steal". You got defensive over a word that wasn't even mentioned. OP is right when they say that Kpop during the 90s was based off of Black American artists, while the whole Kpop idol system is a one for one copy of Japanese industry idols.
@@bebebongBaebae Without black music, neither Jpop nor kpop would exist. The Idol system is Jpop. However many of the aesthetics come from black culture and most of the music is and has always been black music centered. Hip-hop, r&b, rock & roll, rap, funk, disco, reggae, new jack swing, afrobeat, many aspects of pop music (pop derives from bebop), etc. are all black invented music.
And the fact that you are uneducated about this, in denial, or you simply don't care proves why black people are always having to call out the kpop industry for appropriation.
@@dotdotdotdotdotdotdottod the original commenter never said anything about Koreans stealing hip hop/black culture though..
Thank you for pointing out how the jpop industry blocking most of their mvs from being watched by international fans back in 2010s was a big dick move 😅 I remember how hard it was to watch e-girls, perfume, and a couple other jpop artists, Japanese versions of Kpop songs, or just Kpop idols singing their Japanese singles on UA-cam without having to use vpn and set my location to Japan
I remember watching the full mvs of Japanese artists I love in dailymotion and in torrent. Japan music industry really needs to destroy their barriers because theyvreally fumbled hard even tho they have the 2nd biggest music industry and they might not need international audience to earn
It's better now but still not as accessable as k-Pop
Exalcty! Back then, about 6 years ago I was SO into Jpop but the censorship made it SOO difficult to consume any content.
The jpop industry doesn't care to appeal to outsiders and it shows. But honestly it's fine bcus they are already really successful in their own country.
Jpop would have definitely been way bigger then kpop since japan has been in the game way longer then korea and was even starting to peak up again during the late 2000s ans early 2010s seeing stars such as kyary pamu pamu and baby metal gaining attraction at a viral level, PLUS let us not forget that anime one of japans most consumed media would have been the easist way to distribute discovery to jpop as it currently dose, japan could have left no crumbs but decided it wanted to be petty. Honestly i could keep going on but its just dissapointing the more i talk about it
@@-megaera9628
Is because of that they’re so closed. But KPOP is starting to change things up in Japan and you can see the influence in modern jpop . XG is jpop but it’s clearly looking to appeal the global market and don’t be surprised if they made it in USA first than many kpop groups in the 4th Gen
i feel like if there was a group like newjeans in terms of music, and aesthetics, but with older(18-24) members, and more involvement in the music production, they would hit the jackpot.
Fr😭😭😭 I'd be an instant fan. That song Cookie is sooooo good but I can't take 13 year old singing it 😢
@@divx1001 more involvement in music
That's very important
@@divx1001 none of them are 13...
@@katgreer6113Hyein is 14 though. Close enough if you ask me
New jeans are so good but damn they are kids and I don't want to stan kids. A lot of western fans like me think the same
I believe the reason why they insist in promoting XG on korean music shows is because of exposure. Their performances do VERY well, they get insane amount of views considering how new they are. It’s basically the perfect opportunity to kill 2 birds with 1 stone, promote them in korea and internationally because let’s be real, international fans are the ones that watch those the most, so it’s still for them in a sense. I think they’re trying to get a grip on the casual kpop fan before expanding even further in the west through these performances because where can they have such performances and SO many one after the other in the west? They might have good relations with industry people in Korea so of course they would use those too. It’s a good strategy in my opinion because we’ve seen time and time again how kpop fans can carry an artist to the west so more people can then be exposed to them. Plus, think about it, if you’re a business person trying to sell a product, you’d wanna go for the first demographic that would want to buy that product even if you’re plans are to expand further. In this case, who would be the first people to care about an asian girl group? Kpop fans, so it only makes sense to target them so the girls already have hype and a fanbase when trying to expand elsewhere, they don’t feel like a completely new, out of the blue artist. I think it’s too early to doubt their strategy.
i agree with you 100% and i do think it's a bit early to judge their "results" in terms of globalizing the girl group, as they've been active only for a year. i think that starting off in korea was the best decision bc of, like you said, its exposure and the entire system. also as mentioned in the video, japanese content is largely inaccessible and i'd say it's much more of a mystery to foreign fans in comparison to korea/kpop. you have a lot of stages and avenues through which you promote yourself that are accessible to not just people in korea, but globally as well. the success they have now, they would simply not have achieved if they focused their promotions on the west (for examples shows in the uk or the us). while there is a lot of daytime/nightime tv, they just don't really have people under their influence the way they used to before, or the way korean programming has. it's an entirely different culture. the intended audience demographic - the ones you want to stan you - just don't watch jimmy fallon; they watch the clips of their favorites on youtube. this will only be benefitial to them once, like bts, they have an established fanbase that can carry them with their interest, not by needing to MAKE strangers interested. it's also not easy to break into america either - little mix, literally the biggest global girl group and the only girl group with three albums that have accumulated over 2b streams each - never achieved proper success in america, largely down to poor promotions from their former management company (and they've talked about this themselves). you need concentrated efforts and promotion in order to truly make your imprint, and xg needs to grow a lot before they manage that, and i think the korean market is the most accessible foreign market atp.
XG’s strategy are actually working though. For a new Japanese girl group from an unknown company, they’ve been played in radio stations in San Fransisco.
They get views because they are amazingly talented.
Listen to their Galz zypher or the Vox
yup, it's to get some international fans from the kpop fandom pool before they ditch SK and promote to US.
Good luck in US for an all asian global girlgroup
Geoblocking has had jpop so behind kpop, it's ridiculous. I feel like so many artists and opportunities could come to them if they (jpop) weren't so focused on geoblocking. I remember when jpop was barely on UA-cam at all and kpop embraced it fully and got kpop to the masses. Jpop missed the train years ago.
Avex just upset they can replicate the mass popularity that kpop has, Avex's dated now and that's something considering how Avex was in the early 2000s (with ayu)
Do you know why jpop decided to geoblock foreigner fans? It's just... Weird, to me, that a company actively decides to miss the opportunity to reach bigger audiences.
@@cc20016 Idk why’d they block it but jpop had no need to really promote outside of Japan. They were already manning bank just staying local
@@cc20016 i think it has smth to do with copyright? they’re very vey strict on that and as the result, they have one of the most royal fans when it comes to purchasing power
Japan has copyright laws. It’s not just in music but also in gaming.
So, in conclusion, because of strict copyright they sold a lot of original albums and digital albums in Japan, and they didn't need to promote overseas? Interesting...
Honestly I don’t see kpop dying down , yes it might loose a bit of hype especially with international fans because of the over saturation but they will still be successful groups coming out , if done well by the companies. There are too many fans in the K-pop community to let kpop die down.
I mean, XG is less than a year old and penetrating Western markets takes time. South Korean music shows have a global reach because kpop has a global reach. It’s a smart first step. They’ve also been doing more interviews for Western platforms. We’ll see where they are a year or so from now.
i agree but Avex saying we don't need SK while they promote on Korean channels and their dancers are Koreans(1MILLION Dance Studio) is little dumb like i get they want vengeance or whatever but don't criticise the people that help you, if you don't need them than how about they get themselves idk American producers and choreographers.
@@lisaadams7339 Avex reminds me of Blockberry in their attitude
It's one guy on the board of directors at Avex who had this sentiment and isn't the person directly running Xgalax in korea
I agree🙌🏼
Max matsura might be ceo of avex but XG is Simon's project don't take his words as gospel considering Simon was in a kpop group and is half korean, I doubt he'd devalue his korean side especially knowing how nationalistic Koreans are. Max is just speaking nonsense
I would say that the US wasn’t necessary looking for a pop group to fill gaps. After 1D and Fifth Harmony, no one cared about pop groups in the west, minus Little Mix who was still popular. No one really asked to make more pop groups. The interest restarted bc BTS got famous. People were talking about boy bands again. It wasn’t bc they loved BTS wanted more groups like them, but bc they wanted to create groups who they felt were “better” and could be more popular than BTS. For example, that UKpop project Simon Cowell wanted to do. Don’t know where that went or how that turned out.
Since BTS got popular it was easier for kpop groups to be known in the west which is probably why more companies are pushing these local groups. They’re trying to take advantage of the door they opened. Especially since BTS are inactive as a full group since they’re enlisting.
Simon Cowell's UK-pop project was for a show, X-Factor The Band. It tanked in the ratings and was the last time XF ever appeared on UK TV. The show's boy group, Unwritten Rule, disbanded maybe a month after creation. The girl group, RLY, have done ok in the pack of TikTok girl groups and are finally gearing up to release their debut single years later after multiple lineup changes.
@@Nissl61 uk pop dumb move by simon
@@nuellawayne2308 It was mostly about his feud with Little Mix tbh. They had a group-making show coming so he rushed a shoddy show on the air to beat them. The UK-pop bit was just some noise marketing, reflecting his old-school thinking about publicity. In the end, both shows completely flopped. At least the UK has FLO now.
In conclusion, bts paved the way wbk
That group Simon Cowell formed through Xfactor the Band lost to the girl group so were never signed to his label. So he signed the girl group but one left to follow a solo career which she did quite well with. The other 4 then left Simon's label joined an US label but then one of the remaining 4 girls decided she'd rather have a family and go to university and she left to get married and have a baby and start her University part time.
I wonder if kpop companies that are debuting american groups know how the market works in the states, are they going to have them be super censored and "perfect" or are they going to feel like kpop groups, bc tbh what the korean public is looking for compared to the american market is very different. Honestly I'm not even sure if the average american teen will tune into a group like this compared to american kpop fans that are going to tune in bc this group is from the same company as their favorites.
doubt any american teens will get into gg or bg if they arent organically popular. like the most random nobody on tik tok or soundcloud will catch their attention with a self made song (sometimes good, sometimes trash) and go viral. If you present them with this perfectly packaged group, that is manufactued by a group of ppl (prob their parents age) who have to research what they like, they will sniff the inauthenticity a mile away lol
@@blu00 I feel like the average american fan is not looking for what kpop is offering, korean fans and kpop fans in general like the "perfect idol" yes american groups are not always organic but I think they present themselves differently from kpop groups so you have a point.
imo rn the groups that show the most promise are newjeans & le sserafim with the latter maybe having a slight leg up. I mean newjeans y2k/nostalgic concept fits PERFECTLY with what gen z & the American gp want in music rn + the styling is sometimes super cute & trendy. Then lsfm have a badass unapologetically themselves concept while being extremely down to earth & the biggest goofballs + eunchae is the only minor. It all depends on hybe continuing on being smart with their marketing & giving them at least a showcase tour like txt had back in the day. Oh also both groups benefit from a mix of cultures & languages which is always a bonus AND they’re ambassadors for big brands that can hopefully help them in cementing themselves into the minds of the american ppl or at least the gen z-ers
Yep, HYBE is smart in that they aren't afraid to try something that's considered new in kpop. NJ is very western sound. While lesserafim is badass feeling concept while aren't having too much girl crush. Not to mention their recent comeback is bomb. Antifragile being reggaeton inspired? 🤩👌🏻👌🏻😘
Hybe really do be trying to dip into the international market 😆
@@rayneforresy640 I also think LSF is in a perfect place to corner a space for Hybe in the japanese gg market while New Jeans could take the lead in the west. And they are still marketable to either industry for stability and their concepts dont overlap. it's very smart, they divided and are conquering!
I agree, but generally I think LSFM will have better longevity if promoted in the west compared to NJ. The top Kpop groups in the west, BTS and BP were promoted first by their fandom before being exposed to wider audiences. I think LSFM has right amount of foreign members, Antifragile replicating the current trends especially from Latin Am. music, and I think they could build a seriously loyal fanbase. NJ on the other hand has a image formed by the nostalgia of adult's teen years, very young ages and more general popularity than fandom power. But I do like both groups and interested to see how well they do if given English singles for example.
@@rayneforresy640 great point about antifragile being reggaeton inspired, it's these details, along with tapping into genz trends that I think makes the difference.
Lesserafim if marketed towards the west they would need a new member that speaks English
The whole thing about JYP not allowing trainees who are adults for their American groups will not only stop the group from being as successful, but it's also extremely unfair. I was also upset when I saw that the SM Global auditions didn't allow people over the age of 19 to audition. Why are they acting like being 20 years old is too late to start working towards your dreams? They are missing out on a LOT of talented people by not allowing adults to audition. I don't know why Kpop companies are so against older people debuting. What's wrong with having artists that are in their 20s and 30s?
As for America wanting their girl groups to be more "mature", well I'm American and I actually prefer it if groups don't do a super mature concept. Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with groups doing mature concepts if they are old enough. I just prefer groups that do brighter and fun concepts. You mentioned that ITZY might not be "mature" enough for the American market, but they are one of my favorite groups and I personally love their concept! I even enjoy Sneakers! I mainly listen to music and watch TV shows and movies that are more family friendly, for a lack of a better word. Again, nothing wrong with the mature stuff, I'm just saying what I personally prefer.
Thank you for making this video, this video was very informative and entertaining! Thank you for the effort you put into all of your videos. I hope you are happy and healthy and I hope you will have a great weekend!❤️
Companies want kids so they can be manipulated easily and that they'd be obedient to them.
And if you’re not at least half asian and too brown they won’t even think twice before giving you a no after auditioning
USA isn’t your likes . USA’s gg history:
Supremes, TLC , Spice Girls, Destinys Child, Pussycat Dolls (kinda..) , Little Mix, Fifth Harmony . Nowadays USA’s culture is EXTREMELY sexual and degenerate in many ways, and that’s what the public is used to. No problem with artists breaking barriers or provoking that’s great, but when EVERYONE is doing that is becomes just the standard.
I hope KPOP will change that , female American singers can be reduced to twerking, suering, metioning Balenciaga or Chanel, how much they love sex , sticking thongue out and unenspired bars.
NewJeans, IVE, Itzy, Aespa and in more aggressive groups like XG add variety to the pack and that’s what USA needs: variety of female artists, specially black artists.
@@havensohn3821 That's terrible... I kind of thought the reason these companies allow young teenagers to debut was ageism against older people, but that's even worse that they're just trying to control these young artists. They shouldn't be trying to control or manipulate anyone. This is so sad honestly :(
@@kant.68 i know like this will fail most of those big gg in the west have people of color, most BIG pop stars in America are Black American. (Beyoncé, Rihanna, Mariah Carey and both Fifth Harmony and Little mix have a diversity.
I think what all these companies fail to understand the most, is it’s about the right music. That’s it. JYP’s English tracks are way too childish when there are some incredible Twice B-Sides that could kill it on an American radio. And our only 13 year old superstars came off the Disney channel and have 13 year old fans, not exactly American mainstream. HYBE has authentic elements, and they’re close to many of the right sounds, but then in management I think they’re actually starting to feel more and more like the typical K-Pop company where everything feels controlled and contrived, and that can come back to bite them in the US market. Given how all the English BTS releases sounded the same, I’m not sure they fully understand the reason Dynamite, PTD, and Butter were popular, wasn’t because of the songs themselves, it was because it was BTS releasing them. YG, it’s the music. The styling. YGs feel happens to be pretty similar to the type of feel popular in the US. It’s not genius marketing, and if they attempted to force it, I’m not sure they’d realize why Blackpink worked, and mess it up. SM are so close. Musically I think a lot of their sound would do good on American radio. Aespa’s life’s too short is the closest I’ve ever heard a K-Pop English track that sounds like it would naturally play on the radio. But they gotta drop the Kwangya and the Naevis and tone down the cyberpunk. And they gotta let loose some control of the members and marketing and let it all flow a little more naturally. And remember that the names “SM” and “NCT” aren’t going to get them any brownie points in the US, as much as they seem to keep thinking it will.
Well said. YG has always stuck to a very particular American sound. It is boring. But it sells and it works. Like McDonald's. No one can claim their burger does not taste like cardboard. But they continue to make money.
this
@@HailToTheMeep tastes like cardboard? I’ve never heard of that
It's not about making kpop artists anymore. It's about debuting as many groups as possible, getting them to generate as much money as they can with whatever popularity they can get, then moving on.
Also very much disagreeing with the whole "bts were taken seriously in America because they were REAL artists" that's completely not true. Their biggest American hits are manufactured basic American pop, has nothing to do with their artistry or whatever. The same goes for Boy with Love. In fact I would say their more artistic driven songs were more recognized in SoKor. DNA, BST and Fake Love are considered BTS classics but they are more successful in SoKor than they were in USA. The reason that bts is as successful as they are is well their fanbase.
I literally just said this same thing to someone under this same video. I don't think a lot of people understands where BTS truly got their game from because it wasn't their music
Not saying their music is bad, but if they stuck to their Korean roots, they would have never got this far. Especially if they didn't have the fans they have
@@LovelyKissess exactly! There's a reason why people unstaned them when they became mainstream bc they were doing mainstream stuff. Saying the permission to dance is some short of proof of bts' artistry is laughable. Especially when you compare it to spring day, who is one of their most successful songs ever in SoKor. No bts have found the foundation of the most important thing for an artist, a strong fan base.
@@gwgwap It's also one of the reason a lot of people unstan them once they start to get into other groups.
I'm just glad you see it. Too many people turn a blind eye to that truth. The fandom, not the music did a lot for Bts
.... and their fanbase became fans because......... 🤓
@@LovelyKissess They have stuck to their Korean roots. Their fanbase pushed them to the top all the way. Just because they blew up after DYNAMITE because they reached the general public like me does not mean that their fanbase was not already SOLID YEARS BEFORE. You people honestly dont use your brain when you talk.
Technically Kpop hasn't been Kpop for a while, people who aren't even Korean have been producing Kpop songs for yearsss
the statement from avex 💀 it’s giving envy and idk how they’re promoting in sk with that mindset… it was very interesting to watch this as an asian (not korean) myself, i’m pretty much not affected by the western market, kpop will always have a market elsewhere
Avex shoulda promoted their other labelmates first in SK instead of just now suddenly promoting XG... Avex had so much potential under its wings that never got to fly🙄
Japan, Korea, and China are known for nationalism and a lot of pride in their countries, that has a lot to do with it. Still, it's very reminiscent of Cultural Appropriation Cake Shop.
@@MoonfallMidnight You mean XENOPHOBIA
@@MoonfallMidnight that’s a fact but you don’t openly say that then promote in korea lol like keep it to yourself 😭
Yea that statement was a choice and tbh leaves me feeling icky about checking out the group ( which I know is super unfair to those girls because they had no say in what the company put in the statement )
i think it’s interesting how u pointed out the promise twice has shown in the western market. like u said, i feel like the company was probably betting on itzy to be the one to break into the market since they were being promoted there a bit more, but they might’ve not seen the results they were hoping for. i feel like jyp wasn’t expecting twice to get the momentum that they’ve gotten internationally & i think they’re going to focus more on pushing their new American girl group instead of pushing twice, the group that’s already starting to break into the market
twice are not doing that good to USA though, and the fact that they chart only when they have English songs prove that.
@@gwgwap i mean the fact that they’re able to chart at all is impressive enough. only 5 kpop groups have ever charted on the hot 100 & they’re one of them
@@gwgwap They did really well with their recent album. Although Talk That Talk wasn’t that successful, the album itself sold a lot. Alcohol Free was a Korean release and did extremely well. Of JYP would promote them better, they’d get even farther. Even if they have to sing in English, why is that a big deal? Who cares if it’s english. It doesn’t take away from them being kpop
I feel like this was bc of their bubblegum pop concept. The US usually like more mature concepts, so they probably weren’t expecting them to do well. Twice proved that they could do well with their concept. I mean look at them now. They’re accepting an award at the Billboard Women In Music Awards! They’re being recognized for their music and work on the billboard charts
@@gwgwap they are doing well
The fact that they are going to be honoured by billboard women in music means alot
If only jyp will see it as a sign
Kpop execs seem to want the Western market without really understanding it. There are a lot of norms in the kpop industry that won't fly as well in the American market (training system, presence of minors, overt disdain for darker skin, strict body standards, etc.). That's not mentioning the unfortunate anti Asian sentiments.
But on a musical level, I agree that I'd rather go to the source. Americanized kpop just sounds bland to me.
I heard kpop training SYSTEM. Not Americanized kpop.
Chasing the American dollar will ruin kpop.
I too prefer the members to be adults, but i HATE how focused on sex most western music is. I definitely would not listen to kpop songs that were westernized in this manner, and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
omg i agree! there is nothing wrong with being explicit of course, but someone's gotta be modest too, just to balance it out, you know? i feel like there is no balance regarding that in western music right now, and there needs to be one.
Whenever I think of groups that could make it over to the mainstream Western market, KARD and NewJeans have the most promise to me. Their style of music seem genuinely Western, and not in the form of “jumping on the Kpop bandwagon when you don’t actually like the music.” I also think Lesserafim’s concept would be excellent, as they have a mature, elegant vibe to them.
New jeans's type of songs definitely leaning more to the international market. As someone who's only liking certain groups, I'd say yes, their songs is one that I'd casually listen to and would be in my playlist. BUT I wouldn't watch any of their performance simply because I don't like watching teenagers 🤷🏻♀️. Their concept is fine tho. Literally just school girls, crushes and so on. Which appeals very well to people regardless of country and culture. Their youth is their strength and also a weakness imo. Some like it, some dislike it, such as me 🤷🏻♀️.
Lesserafim on the other hand, with their recent comeback definitely trying to grab the international's attention and they're pretty successful imo. Antifragile is reggaeton inspired, and the reaction vids and comments that I've come across are positive. Their members are mostly of age, with eunchae being the only kid there. I'm hoping HYBE can follow the hype train after Antifragile.
Overall both groups are successful in domestic and international. HYBE does know how to attract us after all 😂. So I won't be worried about them.
kard has been doing latin inspired music since pre-debut and i think it was an excellent move as its what got them recognized overseas, and they were also pushing the envelope of what was being released at the time. i definitely think they would have blown up more if the climate they were debuting in was one closer to now - where bad bunny is the biggest artist in the world, as well as artists like rosalia as i feel like they really championed respect and attention towards latin/spanish music beyond a singular hit here and there - but hybe has definitely capitalized on that success now i feel (and goes towards the point op made of bh seemingly knowing what the western audiences want) which is seen in how (to me at least) lss' antifragile sounds like it's a cut track from MOTOMAMI (saoko + chicken teriyaki even in the point choreo, and the girls themselves used rosalia as an album spoiler) and i'd say txt leaned towards latin influences in their current comeback.
i'd also argue that as much as being co-ed adds obstacles (as the system just isn't set to recognize mixed groups in korea) it also made them more accessible as well as intriguing to the western public. if only dsp had the resources to really push them in the us/uk and add to their efforts in latin america, they'd definitely establish themselves as a global group.
Istg hybe knows what they're doing with Le sserafim and new jeans, like they're going to be really successful ❤️
le sserafim deserves to be loved and successful globally their discography is heavenly
@@curiositykilledthekat i'm a little confused as to where the latin influences are in txt's recent comeback?
I think generally the idea was for xg to promote in Korea and capitalize on the western interest in kpop - which makes sense, given how so many kpop companies are making big western pushes. So if xg is already catered to the west (musically, linguistically, etc), isn’t it easier to debut them within the preexisting niche market of western eyes on kpop before branching out into the general public? Their cyphers have already hit the general public on social media, so it seems that the marketing has already done what it was intended to do. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them at 88rising in a year or so, but most if not all of those artists were already pre-established in east asia before joining up with the label… gotta start somewhere, and the xg marketing seems quite a clever move.
This is such a good point. They are aimed globally by pretending to be Kpop. So like a knock off Louis Vuitton?
@@HailToTheMeep I love your name and pfp sm 🤣🤣
88Rising have already found their "Babymetal" in the form of Atarashi Gakko and are working hard to promote that group, abroad. I doubt they have time for XG right now because the goal for 88Rising is to break Atarashi Gakko globally.
Not to be rude, but K-pop won't be sellable in the western music industry. Western fans hate lip-syncing which is something that is becoming too prominent in kpop and "perfect" stage performances. The difference between a western singer and a kpop is singer is too great when you compare their live stage performance. Westerns like to see and hear the raw vocals and expressions of singers, while kpop is too overly practice to the point that the performance doesn't feel authentic. 4th gen performances have been disappointing me lately, caring way too much about camera angles and looking good. If they keep this up when globalizing kpop, they'll quickly loose heat.
exactly.
Yup
This is exactly what I was thinking
It used to be like that in Korea. There was no this "Kpop". Things can change in the future as now we are going into more video centric media.
K-pop needs to stay as K-pop. Popularity comes to those who have a specific niche that’s not over saturated.
Western music like relatability, entertainment and good beats and not the things K-pop put importance on like visual perfection, synchronized dances and highly polished social etiquette
Sure there is a market for that in the west and that’s currently being filled by K-pop. Trying to make an “American” pop group won’t work unless it fills all current western interests: body positivity, racial diversity and equality
DEFINE "KPOP"
@@HailToTheMeep That's what I'm saying. K-Pop is a musical type, not a genre. The reason why "Pop" is attached to it. So that leaves a great question, what is "K-Pop"?
Thank you. A Western Kpop group is something that nobody in the west wants. Only kpop fans would be interested and it would be hard to replicate another BlackPink that could have so much success in the west.
@@HailToTheMeep Korean pop
@@HailToTheMeep contemporary pop music based in Korea and having the main language be Korean. often influences of R&B, dance, hip hop, funk and reggae.
I think the most successful path to a "localization" is what Blackpink is.
Pretty much 3 foreigners + 1 full Korean that align more with western values and society. That have already the backing of the k-pop community and now are getting more western recognition from the general public.
I could see Blackpink promoting more and more in the US in the future and less in Korea.
So that when they disband Lisa, Rose and Jennie have already cemented their place as global stars and can can branch out to any area of their liking anywhere in the world, and Jisoo who is the least interested in the foreign market can comeback to Korea as a member of the "legendary girl group" and resume her career as an actress.
This is what JYP always wanted but due to his narrow view of music and women and general, can not make any of his GG stick in the US.
Jennie isn't a foreigner though. She was born and raised in Seoul. She just went to school overseas.
Well…jennie lived in NZ 4 or 5 years, Rose still a korean girl, just with her heavy Australian culture attached to her korean culture. Lisa is a budist thai girl that is just naturally inclined to dace and perform and to american culture, but still a thai girl who won’t eat certain foods because of her religion.
Ok. Once thing that needs to be adressed is this biased stupid view that EVERYONE AROUND BUT YOU is sexist. YGE is a COMPANY. A BUSINESS. Not a person, they don’t owe you music because “muh gender” , depends on many people and many factors.
And ALLL YGE artists take forever to release music. Both men and women. Why this stupid trend to call everything misogyny?? How’s that helping anything???
@@kant.68 they still lean more to the western side so pointing out that x e y has Korean ancestry doesn’t really say much about the main point of original comment which it is how blackpink is way more relatable to westerners because most of the group is way more westernized than the average Korean/Asian who never set a foot outside Asia
I think that the group should mainly be Asian Americans with a few Americans of different races. There is a gap in the music industry of Asian Americans, and a diverse group pulls in more listeners in USA. Plus there won't be a language/culture barrier. Also I think the groups should be atleast be 17 and older. Really 19 -25 is like the perfect age so that they can do college campus festivals and concerts, and be more relatable to college/ upperclassmen high school students while not being too young for older listeners. They should not copy Blackpink in their formation. That worked for Blackpink, but it won't work for a group that will debut in the USA. Really trying to copy BTS or Blackpink is setting your group up for failure or short term success. The general public gets tired of seeing the same thing over and over. That is why pop groups are not popular anymore.
I’m surprised you haven’t talked about AleXa (I know you’re talking about groups but) because I feel like besides for BTS or Blackpink. She’s been like the third person to kinda crack that American localization. I mean she performed at an NBA halftime show and won the American Song Contest which was on NBC. For me, she feels like the kpop version of a western idol. I feel the same way towards Jessi, ChungHa and surprisingly Sunmi where I know of them for themselves rather than their company
That’s only because solo artists don’t hold the interest of most Kpop stand so folks don’t really think about what labels they are signed to, because fir the most part they are all signed to small labels.
yes i was thinking about AleXa too, plus she promotes more in America than SK. Her fan base is way more American than Korean.
@@lisaadams7339 she’s still a kpop artist in my opinion as she started her career in SK, and still promoted in SK. But rn she’s doing a world tour following the success of her at the American Song Contest
AleXa is American born and raised. So rather than say she "cracked" American localization, she's just pivoted to a market that she's a better fit to navigate culturally because it is her culture. And she has the benefit of being a solo act, so doesn't have the burden of hard-carrying the promotions of group that she is the lone American member of. She doesn't have to sell group chemistry while translating for her members who are sitting behind her like deer caught in headlights.
Oh i never heard of this group before but I will check them out
Success of a k-pop group in Korea can be manufactured, but globally it cannot. The first global success will depend on how multi-cultured the artists and producers are. Culture drives music.
Ngl this "localisation" thing is going to be a hard sell. The appeal of kpop (apart from the music, performance etc) is infact rooted in its asian-ness. Like the impact is huge and asian 'aesthetics' are at an all time high in popularity at the moment. But then again we know very little about the projects itself. And if they really go through won't it actually be detrimental to the groups already debuted in the korean industry who do western promos?
Yes
Tbh the 4th gen music just doesn’t hit the same honestly. I’m younger than most of the 4th gen idols and tbh the only groups that actually make sustainable music is new jeans, loona, ateez, and txt (in my opinion) I just think people are tired of kpop music that just sounds like noise. 4th gen music has become tiktok music and cash grabby.
Ateez? And then you say people are tired of music that sounds like noise? Lol
I don't think kpop is dead, but we are definitely seeing a sea change where kpop as a whole needs to do some revamping before it loses its edge to another music market. In SM's case, their lack of follow through and stubborn adherence to the kwangya concept is killing them. They have all the resources needed to break the American market (western producers, songwriters, industry connections, etc) if they wanted to, but they just throw them over here without any research or long term plan. SuperM's debut was a rushed, half-assed attempt without a plan, especially considering half the members were about to enlist. The localization strategy they did with BoA and TVXQ in Japan could work here, but they don't want to invest the time or energy it requires. I also think they expected the SM name to carry them, but they are a small fish in a very big (and racist) pond over here -- without researching how the American music market works, they'll continue to fail. English is a huge factor, but they also need to study the foreign pop groups who made it big here and specific reasons why. Kpop fans in America don't want knockoffs of songs we already hear on our radio stations, we want something unique and fun.
age is a huge thing here. if a teen group debuts in america only teens are gonna listen and no one else
I’m surprised you didn’t talk about yge. Lots of their artists started breaking into American market. PSY, CL, Blackpink. Among the other companies yg style is the most “western” and appealing to global fans. They don’t plan to make any global gg because they already have BP but I wonder how will they manage Babymonster. Will they target the American market or just leave it to happen naturally? 🤔
I really hope they'll let it happen naturally
I was surprised she didn't mention YGE too but I feel like YG's approach might be also kinda dangerous to some extent. Because, as you said, their style is so clearly inspired by the western scene, in particular hiphop, to sell in the US is like adding water to the sea.
They found tremendous succes with it in Korea because, starting in the 90's, the korean public became fascinated with American hiphop so giving that american style in a language they understood better will always be jackpot, but it makes no sense to try that in america where the OGs are at and still setting the trends that YG is blatantly following. It will never be big or sustainable with multiple groups.
It's like an american company making croissants and trying to sell them on mass in France. They might give it a go here and there but you'd need to close down every goddamn bakery in france for it to truly catch on sustainably
Sure BP sells decently in the US but they're alone in doing that with their style so it's not enough to say it's that viable. And even then, they are not viewed better there than any western artists with a similar style. They are nowhere near being taken seriously in the west and why would they? Their style is heavily inspired by American Hiphop, a genre that is strongly gatekept and typically has a high bar for authenticity. It will inevitably make the americans most familiar with that style feel like they are just being served their own food in a different package, and given how hiphop fans are, they are likely gonna rip into them. For starters they don't write their own raps, and having ghost writers is the biggest blow in hiphop. On top of that one can't ignore the racial element of this because it's America we are talking about.
Whether you personnally care about that subject or not, cultural appropriation is very controversial in the US, and i think that if YG are not carefull they might expand to a part of the american public who will bring up that subject BECAUSE YG tends to be so "western" (which is to say they take the most blatantly after african american art and artists personas). There are still a lot of people who don't care about that, but the African american audience already is very critical of Kpop for that reason. I don't believe that BTS for instance would manage to escape those accusations for a second if they still presented as they did during their debut and Hybe is very much aware of that. YG has always been very proud of their "in house" approach, meaning they are mostly korean people making music that is vastly inspired by black art, down to their rampant use (and misuse) of AAVE. On some level they are lucky not too much of the Black American public has heard of them cause Blacktwitter would be filled with thinkpieces about that alone for weeks.
@Elisa Soh This breakdown is so on point and why one can argue that despite the numbers they pull, BP are still niche and not the household names some Blinks like to think they are. If they had the level of exposure that Iggy Azalea had in 2014/15, they would have been eviscerated by Black Twitter the way she was. You can see in western interviews when BP is asked about their hip hop influences or Jennie/Lisa get asked about rapping that they are quick to downplay or divert to another topic to not get caught out as not being hip hop heads. CL actually has a hip hop appreciation and can cite her influences that show up in her work like you know she really does love some Lauryn Hill and studied her among others like Method Man. There are other exceptions too and there maybe some in Babymonster, but if YG wants to have an American group in the YG brand, they would need to go the route of BTS and have that group get mentored and study under some credible names in the American scene.
@@thaddaeuselliott3884 Nah cause for real, when Black twitter had the whole debate in 2020 about Gen Z building entirely online personas around appropriating AAVE on tiktok and calling it "internet slang" I could only imagine how they'd react to Lisa going on stage at some american award show to say "you can finna catch me".
And yeah, totally agree with your last point. I think because of the history of hiphop and the exploitation of black artists in the american industry in general, when you're not black, you have to PROVE that you learned hiphop from black people or they'll just won't let you sleep. When BP were asked about hiphop in that Time's magazine article (IIRC) last year and they said that to them hiphop is about being cool like Rihanna (who isn't even a hiphop artist like what???), that was truly jarring. You can't walk around in the american scene as a non black person saying stuff like that about hiphop and come out of it alive lol. They are very VERY protective of hiphop. You just gotta do better. And the sad thing is Lisa for instance could be a great rapper. She has a good flow but she really needs to learn from the OG if she's gonna sport a persona that is so blatantly copypasted of off all the prominent black female rappers of the 2010's.
Kpop fans hate to hear this but the success of blackpink is a testament of how minuscule the black kpop community is and how, for a LOT of kpop fans, kpop was their introduction to hiphop. Ain't nobody who's deeply familiar with the likes of Lauryn hill, Missy elliot, Little Kim, Nicki, Cardi, Megan just to name a few, out there thinking BP is break some new grounds that would wow the american public. If anything they are incredibly underwhelming and limited because they, and YG in general in my opinion, have a very shallow understanding of hiphop.
That's why I won't hold my breath for baby monster. There are not a lot of hiphop teen acts in the West for a reason, it takes a certain age to fully get hiphop and delivery in a serious, respectful and interesting manner. It takes time to form an artistic persona in general and kids aren't good at that. With the ages of Babymonsters, i bet that to me at least, it's just gonna look very unserious.
They entered, attempted, and left. They did NOT BREAK into. YG replicate Black America to a point where it wont work these days. How many cultural appropriation accusations have they faced? Nah. Not with Gen Z.
Japanese rock bands became huge in the west in 2000/10 but when they started to become more westernized , releazed full albuns in english and so on - they flopped!!! And I think the same is about to happen to kpop.
Kpop blew up in the west bc is was different… once is not that different anymore… the hype will be gone
love your video! i was just talking yesterday about how xg is really just a kpop group with japanese members. i think they would've been a bit more successful promoting in japan as a niziu rival, or in the usa through... whatever methods. but i agree that a global group doesn't really seem to be avex's aim. i think the most important part of launching a western "kpop" group will be understanding western music tastes and what they want to see in an "idol," but i do think that most companies have too strong of a vision to be able to acknowledge that and become successful
They have the vibe that a lot of westerners would like.
You're right about western marketing prefer older people in girl group, when fifth harmony started Ally was the only one over 18, and the debut song had an empowered message but it the concept was kinda cute and childish, their popularity exploded when they released "with it" treat had a more mature concept. But I feel bad because still some of the members were underage at that time. I think what a makes a group work it's giving the a concept that fits with their looks and age, maybe that's why new jeans has been standing out among all the 4gen groups, they are teenager who looks like it, act like teenagers and not trying to appear more mature. The same goes for western groups adult women, who act like adult women.
It should be fine to seek older trainees. I think age 18-30 is more appealing than having kids who hadn't finished school on stage. The oldest kpop idol I have heard to ever debut was Kahi from Afterschool and she was 29.
Maturity and the illusion of authenticity... I think you hit the nail in the head. Sometimes I wonder if some of these kpop labels have even done their research on past boy/girl groups in the states before they start dreaming about their localization success. Like, some of the groups they're selling are clearly nothing what people here are looking for. lol
Just like le sserafim. Their creative team obviously did research om ehat westerners want. I mean, Anti Fragile is literally Regatteon/Latin music beats. Just with Korean people singing it.
Source team did good in marketing them as strong independent and chic group. Mixing a bit of there training with their personality, you have 2 very successful idols, one trained ballerina, a Korean American with years of training and survival show experience and to balance it out you have a maknae who is the wild card trying to make her name
Essay incoming
I think you hit the nail on the head but theres one important thing I think you missed and that's vocal ability. The USA puts way more stock into who can actually sing well, especially when comes to any songs that directly appeal to Black Americans. So anything that sounds even close to RNB, the vocals will be scrutinized more. As a new fan of Kpop, I've noticed how often the backing tracks are holding down the vocals while the idols give some of the most amazing dance performances I have ever seen. But I was looking at the best-selling girl groups of all time and even though 2NE1 made it to
#4, the list was filled with women who can really SANG. Not sing, SANG the house down without moving. The Spice Girls, The Supremes, The Andrew Sisters, TLC, Little Mix, Pussycat Dolls, etc.
And who else was also on that list? Destiny's Child where Beyonce would SANG and DANCE without needing to pick one over the other. And GG aside who are our most ubiquitous idols right now? Ariana Grande, Chloe Bailey, Taylor Swift, Bruno Mars & Anderson Paak, Lady Gaga, Doja Cat, Adele, Jazmine Sullivan, Lizzo, Billie Eilish, SZA, Harry Styles, etc. These people can really sing. Some of them don't even need to dance because their voice is enough. I rarely see that with Kpop groups.
TWICE despite their ubiquity in SK only made it to #12 with Girls Gen right underneath them.
If any of these SK companies wanna do nearly as well in the US as they have in SK they need to put just as much effort into singing training as they do into dance training because when I watch the award shows, it feels like I'm watching SYTYCD, not a vocal performance.
Ironically, Hyolyn would be a good idol to push because she's one of the few I've seen with her mic on. The other is Baekhyun. And maybe, if I'm being nice, Changbin and Han from Stray Kids but even then it was only in their "I'll Be Your Man" Kingdom performance that I feel like I actually heard Han.
Everyone else? Once they start dancing it feels like their singing is weak/underdeveloped and that doesn't fly as well in the US. Heck, even Chris Brown had to prove to us he could sing once we got tired of his flips. I've seen some of my K-pop favs, just stand there and sing for radio performances and vocally... it's lackluster af.
tl;dr None of this localization will work in the US unless they get back in that voice class and run them scales.
I was thinking the same. These recent groups are putting too much emphasizes on dancing and not singing. I can only think of 1 good singer in 4th gen kpop rn which is saying something....
@@tusi1032 It's also possible that as a professional singer, I just care about more than other fans (and fans who are okay with the singing suffering to produce great dance ARE ALSO VALID) but like, it's music? You don't NEED to be a great dancer to create music but if you're a vocalist of any kind that vocal technique got to be strong. Not just to sound good live, but also for their health in the long run.
Just out of curiosity, in your opinion, who is that one good singer in 4th gen Kpop?
It's kinda crazy how the Koreans say that XG takes inspiration from K-pop when they very clearly have MAJOR black and hip-hop influence.
But kpop does too
@@Onceadive yeah that's my point. Kpop in general takes very heavy black influence and we black pol never get mad abt it.
Even Latin influence now.
Antifragile by Le Sserafim is so clearly regatteon influenced HEAVILY. And people credit it to kpop as if they made it . TXT's popular bside Tinnitus is 100% afro beat.
Koreans complaining is just so hypocritical.
@@katgreer6113 I know they are always so defensive and never want foreign idols when kpop wasnt even theirs in the first place
@@Onceadive yup just look at how they treat blackswan
@@ulguglxy3344Koreans love black swan
oh you’re definitely right about the American general public being more interested in more adult girl groups, especially with FLO blowing up. I honestly think that’s gonna be a reason why most companies aren’t gonna succeed with these projects 😭
This "localization" issue has been weighing on my mind for a while! I feel like JYP and HYBE are shooting themselves in the foot partnering with the US labels to create these "localized" groups for the Western market. The US (and, consequently, the worldwide) audience will see these new groups as "homegrown" and will not associate them with the Korean labels, rendering their attempts at global expansion futile.
That's the point of "localisation". To appear like homegrown. They are not aiming at kpop stans like you.
The problem is a lot of these Kpop companies act like they understand the American music industry when in fact they absolutely have no understanding. I also don’t get who would be in these groups. Like are they going to be Asian Americans, Koreans just working in America, or groups of just Americans without having to be Asian? When it comes to managing these groups I personally don’t think these labels (other then Scooter Braun) would be able to handle a group of Americans. I don’t see that working culturally and see there being problems in the future
Exactly. The cultural difference alone will be a massive problem if they’re trying to manage actual American idols and not just Korean idols focused on America
Whatever XG original plan was, they were quite successful in gaining attentions by promoting in South Korea.
Korean music shows are where international KPop fans gathered to look for what's hot.
While XG's music is not KPop per se but they fit perfectly with the current taste of music KPop fans want these days.
When SHOOTING STAR was just released, it became trending topics in US, Indonesia and maybe other countries too.
Quite a smart move and good achievement for a Japanese girl group from a relatively unknown company.
The style alone is pure kpop (rnb is only one part of kpop). That they are not Korean (1 or 2? at least half Korean) and singing only in english doesn't necessarily mean they don't fit this market. Shooting Star could be for Purple Kiss, Chung Ha or aespa and Koreans will say it's kpop.
@@TomsMusicCorner It’s not pure kpop they have hip hop and rnb songs as well
@@shinobione2575 hip hop and rnb also exist in kpop (please describe Chung Ha's music. Right, it's also rnb). kpop is not only pop. kpop describes almost everything coming from Korean music, pop, rnb, hip hop, even metal and rock (ever heard of Dreamcatcher? ^^) but based on idol culture. And XG's hip hop style isn't something new in the kpop market. The only difference is that they sing only in english (what other artists also did like Rosé and also Twice with their English tracks) and that they are all Japanese. btw Japanese idols exist in kpop. They work in Korea for a long time now. They also come from China, Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand, USA, Russia... (but ofc they sing in Korean).
@@TomsMusicCorner look at you acting like kpop's genre was not inspired by the west or that Japan doesn't have those genres as well. So cute listen to their songs they sound more pop than kpop.
@@TomsMusicCorner tumahimik ka nga diyan nood kana lang 🤣🤣🤣
I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts of the SM 3.0 "Multi Production Center/Label" plans. I think it has some thought behind it, but I'm also worried that SM can't keep up with their vision, and it'll be a mess. Edit: I'm also worried about oversaturation. I dunno if their plans of debuting 2 new groups a year is even viable, and even if they manage to do it, I'm worried for the longevity of those groups.
SM couldn't even keep all their promises from the 2022 Company Report so I'm taking it with a grain of salt. They're aware of the fans concerns regarding the management and expansion of their artists. Talk is cheap though.
@@racheljohnson7177 exaclty!!! They said NCT Tokyo this year but they JUST started doing auditions for trainers like what?!
SM's last dying breath. We move on.
@@katgreer6113 and they are taking audition doesn't mean Group isn't debuting lol..
SM can't keep up with their vision 😂😂😂 finding problem in everything
Jyp's obsession with only debuting minors is freaking weird
It's because consent age is 16 I korea and 13 in japan
And if a idol is 14 then he/she will be 15-16 in korea
@@Boss_4545love The AGE OF CONSENT IN JAPAN IS NOT 13. That's the lowest age a prefecture can choose from, no place in japan has their age of consent as young as 13. This is a lie made by actual pedophiles please stop spreading this around
@@Boss_4545love In Korean law, they use International age. And Korean age is actually going away; it will take some time to get it out of people's system tho.
As an American, the concept of taking Kpop culture to america is bizarre. Work culture is entirely different in the US, so trying put the same trainee system is useless. The average teen is having trouble just doing their schoolwork. Even if people do actually willingly do it, likeliness is their going to give up from the harshness of it.
In my opinion it's better for Korean companies to focus on South Korea first, and if their groups manage to make a name for themselves in the country, then start pushing them abroad.
On paper this sounds sensible. But look at BTS and Big Hit. If you are a small company trying to make it big you will struggle locally given how tightly connected the traditional Big 3 kpop companies are to South Korean media institutions. So going overseas first is now an approach many are pondering for themselves.
I also wanted to add that in regards to Avex, they’re their own worst enemy sometimes. At least in my experience when it came to listening to music from their groups (Prizmmy, Iris, Prismbox etc.) Avex almost never uploaded full versions of their songs (unless they uploaded performance videos) on UA-cam and or other streaming platforms so most of the time, the only way you would be able to listen to their music was through fan uploads which I think was a bad move because not making their music widely available kind of shot themselves in the foot. I LOVE XG but I feel like Avex isn’t holding THEMSELVES accountable for not increasing music distribution and having their groups do more global efforts.
Some companies in Japan, not just in entertainment, have been known to be very xenophobic. They refuse to work with other companies if they are not Japanese, for example. They see this as "stooping beneath their level". I can hear the resentment in whoever represents Avex in that statement. As if they are saying that Japan will always be far superior to South Korea but if they must use South Korea to proof this then so be it.
Yes! They aren’t the best with keeping music on streaming sites and ups loading videos.
Thats not exclusively Avex's problem, it's pertinent to Japan as a whole. If XG can be successful, it can be a great signal to Japan to start changing their ways of doing business.
Avex did try to promote they Artists international People justreally dont want to listen to Japanese Music. Many Japanese Artists tried to promote international and it never worked.Im not saying its not their own that they arent bigger international im just saying their not the only once at Fault
Masato Matsuura is not Avex's CEO, please make a better research about your sources of information, that 'statement' is known for have been maliciously mistranslated in Korean forums with the porpuse of promote xenophobia against XG, Avex was the first to brought Kpop to Japan (Boa, TVXQ) so they've play a big role in the expansion of the Korean wave, this is why XG is getting an space in Korea, Avex is very respected and has the contacts that proves it, please don't spread false information.
I think Stray Kids have high potential to push into western markets. I've seen alot of reactors love their music.
nah reactors is so fake dont trust easily
@@richelabucay4184 Exactly
I disagree I believe sm can make it if they step up marketing and promote more rnb and hip hop sounds, allowing their artist creative freedom as well....exo and red velvet had potential and still do
they need to go back to their strengths, like they got it at one point but idk i'm not too confident they know what they're doing right now. i'm excited to see what they do this year
I feel like avex’s “revenge” plan will unfortunately slowly lead to xg’s downfall if they keep doing it
What revenge plan?
?
Avex downfall is already happening
@@hibeautym i believe the avex ceo has said xenophobic things abt koreans & the reason xg is even performing on korean music shows is to “show korea that Japanese artists can do anything korean artists can do”. to which if u ask me, i don’t rlly mind that they’re promoting in sk since they do want to target international audiences & both japan and america has like ZERO music shows for the girls to perform on.
Yeah reading that statement made me think he felt a little salty. Idk how Koreans will feel about that.
For JYPE, they have shown as of late they can't even accommodate their Korean fans so moving to the US at a time like this could hurt what foundation they do have with Twice, and Stray Kids.
Additionally, the Korean system has little difference to those of the American early 2000s. It's just the Korean side has been put it out for fans to see move recently. One only needs to look at Making the Band 3 to see the American machine is just as cruel. Either way, the process will not be easy for whomever does it.
Lastly, XG company's statements leave a very bad taste in my mouth. While I know it is only pop music, if one knows the history of Japan and Korea, it may sound like some very different.
I agree with your thoughts on XG's co
if the knetz knows of their statement it wouldn’t end well. especially with the history of japan invading korean. they do not take well on japanese saying things like that which i understand bcs who would? japan never even acknowledged what they did during the war time and i’m saying this as someone whose country suffer bcs of japan invasion
It's unfair to XG though because that statement wasn't from their company directly but from the CEO of the parent company Avex. XGALX's producer Simon tried to clear up some misunderstandings in his own post recently. I do think that Matsuura is an idiot for saying those things but really, it wasn't a statement from XG at all and it's just sad that people latch onto the words of this old guy that probably still has some xenophobic views like most older generation does. I'm sure XG will have a bright future, not sure about their big claims to be the biggest in the world (why is that so important?) but the girls seem genuine enough and very hardworking, so I'm sure they'll have a strong fan base. People are quick to generalize everything without diving deeper into the issue but I guess that's OK, we can't expect everyone to be in the loop and pass their free time researching stuff about groups that don't exactly interest them. I just hope people refrain from parroting what's being said online without first informing themselves first.
I think Kpop is slowly dying, nowadays there is like 5 groups debuting in a year like Hybe with Le Sserafim and New Jeans and JYP with Itzy and Nmixx, I know itzy are not rookies but before companies used to debut other groups like 3-4 years after the group, so that it doesn't create competitions between groups. In less than 5 years Hybe is going to debut a total of 6 groups--> TXT, Enhypen, Le Sserafim, New Jeans, plus Pledis new boy group who is supposed to debut in 2023 and I-Land female version). This is creating a saturation in Kpop which is going to cause it's downfall.
There's probably more than 100 groups debuting in a year. And true, back then there were far less debuts in the entire industry not just the big3, but as a whole. There's was less than 10. But now...
@@LovelyKissess "BACK THEN" I seeeee .... Now all your ridiculous comments made sense to me. Wait! Don't tell me. You are a SECOND GEN STAN....?? 🤣
Itzy debuted 3 years prior to Nmixx, but i agree companies should wait 5 + years to debut another same sex group
the world just need a velvet comeback from red velvet😞
@Misty Meadow fr imagine in my dreams as title track with fmr concept😞
Kpop has become such a big thing. Like a big flame, it will die down a lot sooner then a calm flame
I really do hope that JPOP will be come popular again and I hope they will hit the global market as well
Kpop may die if fans only support the same top 10 groups from the big 4-6 companies. That’s my take😔
I have a hard time imagining the KPop training system working in America. Americans have very low tolerance for child labor. You can get them to look the other way if kids in Asia or Africa are working hard making cool fashion or electronics. But if you’re talking about American children? Here? Zero tolerance!
The sacrifice expected of idols is analogous to that of Olympic athletes. However the importance of the Team USA to national pride is so great that the whole enterprise is treated as “virtuous” at least in its intent. Therefore it’s… OK for kids to move away to a training camp. Even then, scandals of mistreated athletes are common.
On the other hand, the entertainment industry is regarded as almost the opposite of virtuous. It would be hard to accept 13-17 year olds being separated from their family, school and friends to make cool music videos!
The training part needs to change.
If the minimum training age were 17, and training was done here in the States, that would make a difference.
Western sensibilities would allow a wider range of candidates as well.
Older, different nationalities, people who don't meet the traditional Korean beauty image.
American artists already go through years of training. It's just not talked about or publicized. Training never started with Kpop. American pop stars such as Britney Spears and NSYNC started it.
Kpop just copied it.
@@katgreer6113 Yea. That's a good point.
you finally got the most important point i wanted to highlight and i still do which is debuting adults, i don’t know one bonus about debuting minors that adults can’t do
The only plus I can see is appealing to younger kids. When I was a kid there were a couple western groups I listened to that had really young members (all minors). And I didn't really think about their ages because my focus was mostly on the music, but I felt much better as a 10-14 year old girl liking a group made of kids around my age instead of a group that was older. Like their songs were more relatable because there were around my age and it wasn't overly sexual or explicit like older groups.
@@crystalsnow1138 yeah but those are kid groups for a reason like there’s an actual category for that they release a couple songs and maybe perform in some venues
Product life span. Debuting minors means the company has better chance to earn maximum return of investment.
@@HailToTheMeep Yes but localizing to American fans comes at a cost. We are very touchy with child stars right now because many of them have since grown up and are detailing how horrible the experience was for them. From Justin Bieber singing about being extremely lonely to Demi Lovato singing about their eating disorders to Jennette McCurdy expressing relief at her momagers death in her podcasts and book, selling child stars in the west requires a level of finesse that I'm unsure if SK companies are prepared for.
And tbh this trend of exposing the horrors of being a child star started years ago with that biopic of Michaels Jacksons' abuse at the hands of his father so this isn't even a completely new thing.
They can do it but if I were a CEO I would hedge my bets and start with an 18/19 year old at the youngest. Because then no one can accuse me of exploiting a minor.
We just want a huge western girl group to come out now.
KPOP is entering it's JPOP ERA, So oversaturation and localization will characterize this new era
Also, As it happened already, Many groups will just die off overseas and some will just now chart at all/people just won't be interested... Also, Some people will just not care for Korean Idols anymore and even imply their local groups are "BETTER" or "SUPERIOR". The only one I can see this not happening is NCT as their fandom is gonna become like the Hello Pro!, AKB; EXILE, Sakamichi ones, eventually supporting all overseas and korean units😍
I think hybe has the best chance of establishing the first big american gg,
whenever i listen to a newjean's or lesserafim song i always think to myself "hey this song could become a big hit in the US"
their musical style is very appealing to western gp's easy listening. Imagine a western gg with a diverse line up singing a song like cookie, hybe boy, attention, ditto or omg! Those songs would become popular on tiktok!
Agree.
I don't think new jeans is ready for that since the majority of them are still minors and that could make the label's rep go down. However lesserafim have a very strong concept that could appeal to a wilder Western audience.
Westerners might not like new jeans...like me. Lol.
@@sowhat1674 NWJS goal imo is to cement themselves as 4th leaders in sk for the next 2-3 years before making a big push in the US. They have several english speakers an interesting marketing strategy and easy-listening sound.
Lesserafim have the best shot at becoming big in US right now.
Blackpink is the biggest kpop female name to date
There’s a reason why most companies have been releasing English recently. The K-Pop hasn’t been creative lately and they haven’t been much viewing as it was before. Most English songs have been cringe, XG has been doing it right ever since( they’ve been getting interviews a lot recently) as their songs are originally English and not translated from Korean. XG promoting in Korea is just for exposure which is actually smart because of Japan’s copyright laws.
Not Avex having a revenge and blaming K-Pop while as far as I know, J-Pop is less popular because Japanese government did the geoblock because of "oh yeah Japanese music market is big we don't need to promote our musics outside of Japan, and also copyright!" 😭
If they want to be big, then why they promote XG in Korean music shows? Just promote them globally. Look at current J-Pop artists like Yoasobi, Fujii Kaze, Kenshi Yonezu and so many more. They can be successful in their own way without K-Pop/South Korea as their main motive. Sure, those J-Pop artists are not as popular as K-Pop does, but both J-Pop and K-Pop have their own niche.
I see Avex being jealous with K-Pop because they are the next big thing (and revenge because K-Pop is inspired by their Japanese idol culture) without realizing that K-Pop also have their own problem.
They were trained under Korean academies. It doesn't matter where they go. If they were to show up in Korean shows they'd get attacked for it because it's not sung in Korean language or for their CEO's problematic statement which STILL needs further debunking. If they were to promote outside of Korea, Koreans would tell them they are under Korean influence, when in reality yes it is, but at the same time it's not. It's just a bitter confusion, but not at the same time because it's a global approach, XG is not mainly going for K-Pop, but it's their best way to connect with the rest of the world. The fact you're comparing them to artists such as Yoasobi, Fujii Kaze, Kenshi Yonezu, etc, we do not know their motives for how they want their growth to be like. Everyone has the desire to go at their own pace.
The whole "revenge" or "jealous" arguments is pathetic. You're not only labeling them, but you're dragging down something you don't know that has true passion for what they do. You can tell people write those down to be passive aggressive towards XG and their company when we literally don't know their intentions, but to just be a rising star. Be realistic.
@@Jojnny I'm agree that they can do whatever they like, it's just that their statement sounds too passive-agressive for me, it's almost sounds like "revenge" and "jealousy" (they sounds like J-Pop are never popular and K-Pop steals idol culture from them while the problem is the geoblock in the first place). I hope they wrote it better.
I thought the company said that?
@@rafarania1524 When you say their, we're talking about the same person right? We're talking about the previous CEO of Avex, Max Matsuura, the one who stepped down and had the guts to state something which is blown out of proportion due to mistranslation? Because if we are talking about Max, then yes it could possibly, I said "POSSIBLY" be that, but if you're going to include XG and Simon Jakops a part of this, then the argument is already invalid as they have nothing to do with him. Marketing wise, why would they bother with what he says. If I were the XG girls and Simon, I wouldn't say anything about the case. But to keep XG successful, they need to have a roof and training under some label that has already accepted such as XGALX, run by Simon Jakops, the half korean/japanese and ex South Korean Idol. If they were to state their opinion about Max being so "rude", which we still don't know the exact translation, could be bad as they can get kicked out from the company for being disloyal.
If we had a proof of who the translator is and they should be Japanese instead of some other decent because they could always change up the words if they're not a true Japanese blood translator.
And you did say it "sounds too passive-aggresive" for you... for YOU. It could be posted as that, but we need to figure who the translator is and if it's true. Even if he was to say something, Simon Jakops is the one to manage XG anyways and they shouldn't have to deal with his negativity because we know Max has bad reputation with celebs decision wise.
Hey felt ur hard work is really admirable, your research is very accurate I absolutely love your work
It is “oversaturated” because companies target the already existing pool of listeners, they are not looking into expanding the kpop market as a whole (although you can argue that New Jeans is currently breaking that rule and reaching new audiences). Companies are happy to easily fill their pockets by releasing 10 different versions for a mini album rather than investing in better music production.
i dont think companies have any knowledge of global markets. the reason newjeans is blowing up on global spotify is because their music is exactly what a lot of people ww listen to on a daily basis anyways. sm pushing aespa when hyperpop is a very niche genre with a very specific audience makes zero sense.
they also dont realise their best shot and making it in the west isnt through good morning america, its through catchy fun trends like the OMG edits on tiktok and marketing your songs just like a western artist would (like playlisting).
I think you are a bit biased while speaking about XG. Of course, Max Matsuura is an idiot (not even japanese like him actually) and he already resigned from his position as a CEO. But to go as far as saying the girls of XG (and their manager and producer Simon for that matter) are in any way involved in some sort of a revenge plan, it's quite far fetched.
They've been training for 5 years, and the irony is they did it mostly in South Korea. So i would say they are working just as much as any other k-pop group. Is their music kpop? Or is it j-pop? Or xpop or apop? Who cares?! Maybe some fanatic knetz. Good music is good music and hate becomes a mental illness already. Simon knows no better than k-pop ever since he was a member of DMTN. He knows the system, he has the skills, he has the connections and he works hard to bridge the KOR/JAP music. WHile there's so many japanese idols in South Korea already, the thing that XG sings in english and not korean seems to be the main issue. Made up by korean netizens if you ask me. But again, i do agree with them that Matsuura's statement were sooo out of place.
Anyway, Simon said recently XG is going to bring korean as well as japanese content also, besides the english one. I'm looking forward to see how much hate they will get then. If they will bring korean content and then japanese, knetz will go bonkers that while you promote in KR you should not aso sing in japanese. If it's the other way around it will be just as bad if not worse. Oh well... regardless of XG's strategy one thing is certain: the groups is being bashed for no reason. Ah sorry, they are bashed because they said their role model is "mom". Of course it is. The best answer to that question. It would have been weird if they answered mom to the question "Who's your favorite artist in South Korea".. yes... 🙄
I think JYP needs to push Stray Kids more because they have a lot of Western Fans.
Too flower boy-y . Bsides BTS you won’t have a korean 1D in USA unless you change the focus of the marketing. Not only appealing to teen girls but the GP , meaning more masculine looking men and DIFFERENCE, if you sound look and dance like BTS that’s a bad sign
they should because skz's music does appeal with usa audience but jyp would be dumb to do that before the peak with South Korea. Bts and Bp were already mega phenomenons in their home country before they went to become mega phenomenons in Usa
@@gwgwap Sk music is very different from what americans like.
@@gwgwap I thought BTS were big overseas first since the BIG 3 media friends were (are) very active at blocking them in their own country
@@kant.68 Are you for real 🤡
"Artistry" has absolutely nothing to do with it. If you know anything about western "artists" is that they mostly contribute nothing to these songs that are hits or even classics. The labels in the west do not give these people creative control. Some of the biggest songwriters in the west banded together to not let these huge artists to bully them into giving them songwriting credits. BTS was not respected because of their music. Actually, they were disrespected because of xenophobia/racism and misogyny to ARMYS being teen girls. But capitalizm prevails racism and since you can profit off of bts, they were giving entry.
Hybe and YG are the most likely to succeed in America because of their style and their sound. And Teddy already said it in Ligtup the sky documentary "Why Kpop is the name of Korean music when they only doing pop like in America..." Yg is already thinking of music not only Kpop
Translting the k-pop formula to America won't work, I don't know why they are pushing it this hard. Korean music is already popular in the west the way it is, they don't need to reinvent the wheel, they just need to promote in the "west" more.
Also, I wanted to say that I really appreciate your editing style, you always choose footage that fits what you are saying perfectly! This is exactly how video essays should be done! Paired with your knowledge about the industry, it's just chef's kiss!
There are some Western Girl groups coming up! Boys world is just an example. So it will be interesting to see how these kpop companies compete with the resurgence of Girl groups we are seeing now
Oh yes! I love Boys World too! They seem to be a well rounded group and I really want them to start the girl group trend in the west again!
Kpop is good but it's feels so plastic and fake sometimes. We need a breath of fresh air with western groups! There's the added plus of diversity!
I am sorry but boys world is one of the worst examples. I like their music but they are at the same level of success as Fifty Fifty or Xg. They are not relevant or impactful, they don't chart or the average American knows their existence.
Boys world is some two pack of mid, i would say FLO is a better representation of a modern American girl group.
And don’t forget FLO (well they are from the UK) but America seems to be taking some interest in them.
@@choplifebeforelifechopsyou7828 They're doing a U.S. tour starting like next month, tickets just went on sale and shows are already sold out.
the whole way xg is marketed and promoted is such a mess like they are modeled after a kpop group but are all japanese and singing in english for a global audience yet also aggressively being pushed in korea?? make it make sense
They want to be seen as a kpop group since its beneficial for them to be accessible to international fans. Its seems to be working with how popular they are online and the music slaps.
If it’s stupid but it works it ain’t stupid
@@havensohn3821 I mean international jpop fans are out there, some who even stan kpop. they're accessible bc they upload videos with content easily available, unlike other JP artists. but by promoting as kpop, they are not letting them stand on their own, even in Japan. kppp artists still promote as KPOP artists
The reason XG is promoted in South Korea is to tap the International K-Pop market that follows the big TV shows that promote K-pop.
I'd say it was a good move since they blew up rather quickly through word of mouth in social media after showing up in Korean tv.
TGFX - Thank God for XG
Love their music! Shooting Star has been on repeat for days!
Yes. Technically only 2nd and 3rd gen active groups. 4th gen groups have been using the base and popularity 3rd gen made to attract the new kpop fans. Mostly hybe groups. Even tho most have unique concept. 60% of their population came from BTS and how Bts made hybe a well earning company. Same case with JYP,SM and YG. Twice,exo,RV and blackpink,s fame is being bashed from 4th gen groups. You can't deny my opinion
Really honestly talking kpop as every music genre is eventually going to downfall, not for a real reason but because as shown in the past no genere is forever, '70 ' 80 '90 rock for example, black metal, folk music etc... Every genre had a gold year but always end up failing when people (not everybody but a good majority) get bored and decide to switch which is just really normal.
Look at Ariana Grande, Billie eilish or similar artist, they aren't less popular obv but people do not worship them as back in the day. For kpop is the same, is also worth noting that kpop often time shown us that is never really 100% about music and honestly I just don't feel like people are going to love this illusion forever, kpop will eventually die.
Aside groups/artists that made the history (for example queen, Whitney Hudson, nirvana, Kate bush, bjork, Tupac etc...) is really hard for a genere to live forever.
Imo, XG is promoting at Korean music shows so they can be known by kpop fans and gain popularity before trying to go global
The choreo and stage presence of KPOP aside, it's the melodic music of the genre that attracts many people who might eventually burn out on Hip Hop.
The language of the music doesn't matter as much as the sound. Twice recently completed a very successful US tour singing in Korean. Their current
release in English has 51 million+ views on their official UA-cam channel, when their other releases would be in the 9 figure range by now. For continued
success, KPOP has to understand what draws fans to this genre and allow it to evolve naturally. But what entertainment company would accept
this approach? Honestly, we're going too deep into something that thrives on the whims of a generally young fanbase that can't be predicted accurately.
We were looking for kpop music on purpose but the kpop industry gave us western-ish music. Irony.
That is why Newjeans was able to gain immediate success, all their music is targeted to become famous in western so they decided to make it the most generic pop song.
hybe will survive 🤷♀ lesserafim and newjeans leading 4th gen and they literally have bts
if only people cared to give groups like flo, citizen queen and boys world the attention they'll give other groups solely for the company reputation... talent exists and it's there people just don't seem to care - and it's sad that seemingly only company affiliation might make them. (just commenting on what exists in the uk/american market now - as flo is breaking into the us as well)