Hey Spilo! I know this might be a tough ask as it's more work for you, but would you consider putting the music used in your description? I could definitely recognize the tracks you use in a lot of your videos (Giorno's theme jumpscare in this case). It's a really underappreciated part of making videos, and I wish more people took it into consideration when making content especially for those who might ask "wow, that track was really good, I wonder what it was." I hope you at least consider it! 🙏
When I played it felt like people wanted to pick hog and ball, just dps heroes with bigger HP idk felt like shit, I hope for a major hog rework if we go back to 6v6 cuz any tank player queuing up and getting a hog tank partner is just lame
@@Shrimp4GuraBoth can be true. Some players didn’t mind playing Tank but only liked off tank. If they keep getting forced on Main tank then they would just stop playing tank all together. That happened to me and others I know.
I was always essentially forced onto main tank, which was fine with me, but it meant whenever I played with friends I always got stuck on rein or orisa. I love main tank don't get me wrong, but there's definitely ways to make it more favorable without affecting the other roles too much
i was an off tank main in ow1 and when ow2 released it felt like my role had just been deleted from the game. really great to see it come back even in just a test environment and hope we get more of this.
I think that a lot of the reason characters like Rein and Winston don't feel very different in the 6v6 test has to do with season 9 and the way they balanced the characters. I had a significant amount of play time playing Reinhardt and Ram on the original 6v6 (7hskw) code with 200hp health for squishies. Both characters felt leagues better compared to both 5v5 and the 2-2-2 playtest. Season 9 changes how these characters interact in tank trades. With the increased health pools in season 9, tanks need a proportional increase in damage In order to exert a similar amount of pressure on squishies and take space. (examples below) 1.rein hammer going from 85 -> 100 2. ram punch going from 60 -> 75 3. Zarya beam going from 170 -> 190 dps at full charge HOWEVER, if you look at the health pools for TANKS in the 6v6 2-2-2 mode, they are almost identical to the health pools in OW1. (Reinhardt is exactly the same as peak 85 damage hammer buff Reinhardt, and only 25 armor more than end of OW1 Reinhardt). This means that tank trades are now significantly more lethal than they were previously, on top of the fact that frontline spam, which is more effective in 6v6, is even stronger due to the larger projectile sizes. (you take proportionally more damage than you would pre s9 - higher damage, same health). This on TOP of the DPS passive reducing healing by 20% that ALSO lingers 2 seconds makes it very difficult to take space without shielding to prevent exhausting even more resources due to the inefficiency of healing tanks while they take damage, and even discourages shield hopping since you will keep the dps passive on you the whole time. Basically, s9 punishes aggression from initiators due to the increase frontline pressure (caused by increased health pools) when you overstep to the point where its not worth doing, working in tandem with the DPS passive preventing healing from recuperating HP effectively. This leads to a very boring gameplay loop where you try and avoid taking as much damage as possible instead of trying to initiate in order to prevent drawing an unsustainable amount of resources from your supports. The compensating buffs they DID give to Reinhardt (2000 shield health) even further incentivize this, since shieldbotting just becomes the most optimal way to take space. I do believe that this line of reasoning applies to other initiators as well, although I am most knowledgeable about Reinhardt.
Thank you for putting this into words much better than I could during the interview. All I could come to say was "it feels good to kill things" but this theory completely backs up my feelings. Well said!
OW devs haven't learned from their mistakes even after OW2. It blows my mind man. They couldn't make 5v5 work (mainly because you _can't_ make it work), AND they're setting up 6v6 to blow AGAIN. Even after they were given *TWO* opportunities to completely rework the game from the ground up (three if you're counting the actual conception + launch of OW1), they are STILL making the exact same mistakes. At this point, it's safe to conclude that the OW devs are simply straight shit at their jobs. The failure of OW2 wasn't caused by only greed, it's also because the game's developers are dumbasses. Very disappointing.
I just want to point out: although the twitch viewership has gone down, Rivals' playerbase essentially hasn't diminished at all; it was roughly 400,000 around launch, and it's around 400,000 now. There was a peak at the start of season one, but the fact the game has seen nearly perfect player retention so far is notable.
One thing I noticed is that a lot of boops have been tolerated in 5v5 (because the tank passive is so strong) feel uncounterable in 6v6. How do you ever land a JQ axe on a junkrat when he can teleport you to the skybox with one cooldown, and how do you even get near lucio after all the buffs his boop has had.
Slightly off-topic, but I can confidently say supports is by far the most problematic role design-wise in Marvel Rivals rather than tank Most of their ults basically just being "Zenyatta ult, but lasts longer and provides an additional buff" is just really shitty and lazy game design imo
I can't take min1 max 3 seriously. It is just a diet open queue, and It still has all the same problems. If they were to replace OQ with M1 M3, then that would be fine, but it can't replace 2/2/2
Agree 💯. Also you it is "first come first serve" which is stupid in the sense that you get locked into either tank or support when you can't or don't want to play either of them. I'd rather have everyone choose their desired roles beforehand so everyone is comfortable playing.
I think it was always meant to be a form of open queue no? like being able to swap to any role/hero (with a restriction). Also I think hero picks mattered alot for comps that weren't 2-2-2 as well as how they synergised with the team imo. But when you do get a team like that (tho rarely) it felt AMAZING.
Yeah, the problem with no role queue is that this is an unranked gamemode. Almost every game is triple random dps or triple tank, usually one support. It’s unplayable this way and unless you are 6 stacking, most of the rounds are just meaningless mayhem with no strategy
@Swatotastic Even with ranked, it would still be a problem. You will still get people insta lock dps and refuse to switch until it is already too late. Another problem is if someone is a "master" support player and they join a game with 3 other supports and they are forced to play tank, which they might only be "plat" yet the game treats them as if they are master and then they are way out of their depth.
one of the reasons I love your analyses is because you are fully aware when your arguments are leaning on bias or subjectivity, and when they are leaning on objective facts. Armor is inconsistent: fact. Long cooldowns are not fun: opinion. Overall good analysis, I personally don't mind long powerful cooldowns (like 30 sec revive for example), but pretty much everything else I agree with.
Ok but at this point those players largely aren't coming back. Why cater to people who aren't actively playing/enjoying overwatch when there are millions of players who like the game now?
@glasspaper3 I don't get that attitude, just because people are trying a new game, doesn't mean they'll never play the old game again. That isn't even how it works...
@@glasspaper3the point is that if they had listened to the community earlier, they would have done these tests ages ago and maybe if they had implemented 6v6 by now, overwatch would actually be real competition for rivals. But of course, like everything blizzard trys, they self sabotaged by leaving it until after the majority of the playerbase that cares already left.
I was there the whole time and support was consistently the longest queue. So actually proportionally support players loved 6v6 Tank was the shortest queue ofc
@@Nyxtia I can say the same thing, your experience doesn't mean everyone wanted to play to see how it feels, wouldn't tank be the role that most people would like to see how it feels since it's the one impacted the most? Some played because they like support, others to test it, but after a few days of playing it, the que times for support should lower if that's the only reason.
@@YOnuTz02 The difference is I didn't make any claim it was the only reason. There are multiple factors that go into it. Tank is never going to be the most played role unless it's temporarily when a new hero drops. It's always between dps and support and my point is simply that one being more popular than the other doesn't directly equate to one being more enjoyable than the other.
I enjoyed the 6v6 a lot more than the 5v5 we've had for a couple years. I had a lot of fun with the game, but rivals came out and took up 90 hours of my free time in the past month. Plus a lot of my friends have been fed up with overwatch and preferred rivals. So I ended up barely playing. But overall, I really enjoyed the 6v6. It was my favorite state of overwatch since the beginning of overwatch 2. I hope they don't take the wrong lesson from the release of rivals and think that 6v6 was a failure.
They probably will take the wrong lesson tbh. In their dev blog they said 10% of players queued for 6v6 QP compared to 30-40% for 5v5, and they said it as if it was a bad turnout for a mode that launched at the same time as a direct competitor and got pushed off to Arcade after a week or two.
On the topic of season 9, I wholeheartedly agree with the problems with lethality but more from the perspective of the major discrepancy between the cast now. 200 on widow, 300 on reaper? 175 on tracer, 275 on cassidy? I don't like that big of a gap even as a dps or support player. Not to mention the breakpoints they've had to individually choose to bring back and only for select heroes. Major point here being season 9 was described as a way of nerfing heals, I actually think in the end all it did was mess up breakpoints and the lethality of the game.
I believe 5v5 is the better mode, and first of all, I've been playing mostly tank since overwatch 1, and I reinhardt is my main, the thing is, as you said, off tank felt great, but main tank just doesnt, and that will end with a lot of people (including me) not wanting to play those tanks, even more when abilities like suzu exists in that enviroment. But this video really made me thought that with the right adjust and reworks, 6v6 may work better than the last month in ow1 or even just better than 5v5. Part of me still thinks that a lot of people wants 6v6 back because nostalgia and the "before everything was better" mentality. And it's true that people don't seem to remember that we will face again the same problems as before, and the biggest one is... queues, the percentage of ppl that like to play tank is very small when compared to dps or support. If you add a second, you could atract some players back, but I doubt the change to 6v6 will double the amount of people playing tank, so it will translate in longer queues for dps and supports, not only in quickplay, but also in ranked, double shields metas, characters that just don't work in 6v6 (kiriko for example) Also I'm a firm believer that 5v5 at least, in the esports scene is just better, it's easier to track what is happening in a game, without it being a chaos of cameras and speed, and yes you're just taking away 2 players, but that's enough to make the game more legible. From the games I've played, csgo and valorant, those have been the best to watch in esports, and that's because you have a time to rest, and a time to engage, you have rounds, you have slow paced gameplay, fast paced gameplay, etc... etc... Of course for a lot of players that's just boring to play, but not always to watch. OW and MR are two games full with this frenetic non-stop fight, with little time to rest between fights, unless the round/match is over. It looks good when played, but horrible when you're trying to figure out what it's happening. It's true that doesn't matter if 6v6 or 5v5 comes to the scene this will still happen, but you can't deny that 5v5 makes fights shorter or again, easier to read for the viewer. 6v6 for the game will be nice I guess, but If I was team4, I would keep 5v5 as the "esport" experiencie, and that being reflected on rankeds, having 5v5 and 6v6 at the same time, one for the more "esport focus experience" the other for the "game experience" and that's something that could truly create a new debate, having two versions of the same core mechanic, both living, within the same game, of course you can't have the best of both worlds in exchange for nothing, so the long queues will remain a problem.
@@flowerly-m5y ofc, but it's just felt anti-qol. In 5v5 all you have to do is grab a mini and you can be in the fight in a few seconds, while in 6v6 you need to grab a mega
I literally just spoke about this elsewhere lol. While playing ball I would repeatedly go in instinctively and forget that I don't have shield health or a strong healing passive anymore which caused me a bit of problems. I had to remember to go for another mega or take up a second of our supports time. It does feel kinda awful to have to wait so long especially when you're already set up and it's just the hp that's holding you back. Ball does feel great to play and I don't mind them attempting this because of a sustain playstyle but it does hurt his uptime quite a bit which is one of balls main qualities as a tank.
I was a main tank player in OW1 and played Tank for the first year and a half of OW2. Tank in the 6v6 formats were the most fun I've had on the role since OW1. Although the role has eternal negatives, I feel they were greatly mitigated by the existence of a 6th player. Even playing min.1 max.3 felt objectively better than current format for me. The more macro oriented gameplay is what drew me into OW and it returning in some form with the 6v6 tests has re-sparked my love for the game.
The armor thing is the kind of thing most people would probably realize after thinking about the issue for 5 minutes. Don't know how the devs still haven't implemented it
I think this entire testing cycle is confirmation that the current Dev Team really needed to experience 6v6 as a format for themselves, based on many of the points Spilo brings up in the video. There were a few glaring omissions and, what I'd call, distractions in the process of re-designing and balancing everything that would have drastically improved the format for a lot of the heroes/roles. Calling it growing pains as the OW2 dev team tries to rewind back into a different design mentality. I will say, Main Tanking is miles better in 6v6, just b/c of that extra Tank demanding attn. from the enemy. It can still feel like you're exploding, but those moments are punctuated by an attempt at an unlikely strategy, as opposed to 5v5 where it comes down to whatever god you pray to shining a light in the enemies eyes so they don't notice you're trying to do something. Armour, Tank CDs, Tank Health, and a minor Knockback Passive (20%) w/ individual Tank options to increase that % with certain mechanics (Ex. JQ's carnage animation, Reinhardt deploying his barrier, Winston Leap, should all double that %) are all good shouts for what should be considered, but also Damage/Healing burst and most Passives removed entirely. On Projectiles? I do not understand why they have been avoiding the main method of balancing Projectile spam that OW1 used pretty liberally. Drop the Travel Speed on the majority of them. It doesn't need to be drastic, but if you don't want Hanzos and Junks launching down lane from a safe distance, make the projectiles easier to avoid the further from the hero's you are. Hanzo's arrows used to be way slower, same with Junk 'nades, Sym orbs, Pharah Rockets, etc. Force projectile heroes to play closer and increase their risk, especially if the damage output isn't going to change much.
I appreciate your insight about why the season nine changes weren't reverted. When the 6v6 balance patch was released, some folks I knew were extremely frustrated and I suspected there was *something* we were missing.
Being honest I did not play much of the 6v6 test for one very simple reason, that being that to me junker queen felt awful. In 5v5 she feels like butter to play but in the limited time I did play her in the test I never could quite understand how she could take space or support on an angle. Like she has the tools but the sustain nerfs she received felt either like I was so relient on shout (long cooldown cycle as spilo mentioned) to be able to engage that I felt I couldnt do that when I wanted to, or that I was so reliant on my other tank taking space for me which was never consistent, not to mention that I alweasy felt it would have been better to just be on a different ake that could either more effectively frontline or effectively off tank. I wonder if this is just a skill issue on my end or somewhat indicative of an issue that may affect one of the single best characters they have made (imo imo obv) which Iwould absolutely hate to lose if 6v6 ever does come back in a more permanent way (that would prob be at least a year away bc owcs)
the good games of 6v6 I've had are such a high that reminds me of how great overwatch can be, but the good games feel few and far between. I'm not really sure where I stand on what the main mode should be
Good to hear I’m not the only one not drooling over Marvel Rivals. It’s fun but it just doesn’t hit the same. I found myself going back to OW2 and trying new heroes over playing any Rivals
As a support player, I felt way more myself in 6v6, I felt like there was a ton to do to support my team, and heal botting didn't even cross my mind. Maybe it's because my other healer and I would naturally split the difference and cover eachother and each tank anyway, idk it just came naturally.
Glad I'm not crazy when it came to "engage" tanks. I've been a main tank player since 2018, and really didn't like the 6v6 test. I didn't feel like I could really take any risks. Just play it very methodical and safe. I feel way more impactful and engaged in 5v5. I remember seeing a lot of DVa, Roadhog at the end of OW1, and it makes sense after this test.
The season 9 changes were the straw that broke the camel’s back imo. I don’t remember the reception of this game being as negative as it is until then, neither did my enjoyment diminish so much to the point where I’m taking longer and longer breaks. Even on your channel, as one of the most positive voices in the community, you find yourself tackling these concepts such as burnout, dev blaming, real life health and such topics only became prevalent since then at least to my findings.
I've picked Orisa next to Sigma or Ram a lot in the playtest, specifically if we were going against a Rein, because Rein can bully those two so badly, and Orisa is one of the few tanks that can meet Rein's physicality with physicality of their own. For me, the reworked Orisa in 6v6 is a lot closer to an off tank, being a peeler, than a front line dmg sponge like in 5v5, or a shield bot in OW1.
Love how on 12:39 you talk about the armor problem and I think is not nearly talked about ENOUGH. For me the armor revertion was THE ONE change that completly fucked up the balance of junkrat. He had been taken on a better direction slowly, and that change outdid a lot of that. And in 6v6 this one change cause junkrat to become that much better on this format, in the WORST posible way. There is other things can contributed to it like the s9 hp pools and how much downtime tanks have, making that junkrat getting a tank away that easily get even more value, and then the mine higher cd forcing him to play that much more safe. There is a talk to be had about the direction of junkrat, and armor is the big bad that needs to be adressed if we ever want to move junkrat forward. I really do hope they listen to you solution, because its THE MOST IMPORTANT thing that needs to happen for junkrat to ever be shifted on a better direction. Great video man❤
I just had a lot of fun figuring out how the new tanks fit in the main and off tank role. Me and my old tank duo from the overwatch one days had a lot of fun with thing. We ran sigma ram a lot, which technically could be considered double shield, but the strength of the combo is less that and more enabling ram more with sigma shield and the rock. Ramattra in general is fun in the format because his base form kinda plays like an off tank, but his nemesis form plays like a main tank.
I dont think I will ever play this game again, except for ball in 6v6. I had so much fun playing 6v6 ball and I really havent been having fun in ow for a while
As a ball main your take on tank lethality makes a lot of sense...until you factor in the dps passive. My solo kill potential went down but my ability to setup kills went up. A good setup with a dps can get a kill without every fight coming down to the attrition of resources.
I agree. As a ball main the only issue I really had besides the projectile dps domination spilo talked about was the shield health that ball had in 5v5. I got very used to that consistent healing and heavy uptime that was possible with the healing passive/shield health coming back quick. In 5v5 I can go for a mega and be full health by the time I'm set up again. In 6v6 I have to wait a while, get another mrga or rely on a bit of resources from the support. A bit weird to adapt to after playing 5v5 for a long time but other than that Ball feels great to play.
yeah i agree with the take about wanting a smaller knockback reduction for all tanks. not all of them need the big one, but i remember playing a 6v6 game as JQ on new junk city on the point where it's beneath the bridge with the boxes to climb on high ground, i kept trying to climb to the high ground and everytime i got up there the enemy brig would immediately whip shot me back down. i literally couldn't participate in the team fight happening on high ground and it was just a very frustrating experience
The tank duo synergy was such a massive part of OW1; for better or for worse. Because of how 5v5 was rolled out, it was always going to be met with animosity from OW1 players. We were basically expected to have blind faith in the OW team knowing what's best for the game, despite that trust not being built beforehand. With the whole sh*t storm timeline between OW1 & OW2, any remaining trust players had in the OW team diminished even further. So, even when the devs are willing to release public tests for a 6v6 format, players are quick to call it 'sabotaged' & 'false hope'. I think OW has their back against the wall right now & they need to dig in if they want to stay alive. A 6v6 mode on its own won't save OW, but I think the way they're publicly testing the 6v6 format shows a shift in the right direction at rebuilding that trust.
After watching people be all hyped about 6v6 i genuinely decided to put away my memories and personal experience of 6v6 in OW1 and give it a try. And Oh God it felt so much like a remember it. I had A LOT of fun on zarya because i get to dps and be beefy without really taking all the punches but pretty much any other role felt just as terrible. After some more playing i got the feeling that i won't be playing 6v6 except for trying the new iteration and if the game shifts all the focus back to 6v6 i'm probably out. I'm primarily a tank player and 6v6 that was made mostly for tank players just doesn't do it for me. And it's becoming difficult to think "maybe the next 6v6 will actually show me what's fun about it, maybe i'm just missing something".
Armor should be a mechanic only given to “engage tanks” It can be balanced in a more honest way for the characters that have to be the first one under fire. If only rein, winston, ball, mauga, and ram form have armor then armor can have added properties while the tank has armor health left, (increased knock back reduction, crit damage reduction, along with the normal armor effects) all while restricting tanks like hog or sig who are under much less pressure from benefiting from the tank passives we’ve lived with. It also implies more of an incentive for the tank to care armor health and is a big commitment when they engage without it.
I have the same feeling about playing Winston in 6v6, it was often quite awful and I had no impact, because my other tank played something that doesn't help me. If I even dared trying to dive against spam comps by myself, my uptime was like 2s of damage pressure, my bubble broken and I had to run to cover to not explode and I achieved nothing. I felt very helpless compared to 5v5. I play this game since 2017 so it's not like my 6v6 fundamentals aren't there. My lifetime winrate on Winston is 56% and suddenly I couldn't do anything. My another issue was healbotting. I love playing Ana and other damage oriented supports. I really enjoy the skill expression of being able to multitask between pressure, healing and hitting skillshots like a sleepdart. My 6v6 experience was sometimes dreadful, because of that. I still did have games when I could pop off with my aggressive playstyle, but there were more games where I was forced to healbot way more and especially this feels awful in situations when my team was significantly worse. Try to make an impact by doing damage = my team dies and I get blamed for not healing, I try to healbot, my team isn't translating that into kills. It's a lose-lose situation. The last thing that I dislike is how bad players can win games with an ease due to 6th person making up for them. It genuinely pisses me off, because of how many times I faced someone genuinely terrible and they got away with it. I could be dominating enemy Zarya in a mirror, but since the rest of her team was better than mine, I can't win. Or I play vs some awful Sombra, doing an absurd level of mistakes, but when I try to punish those by chasing her on Winston for example, then I face some insane pressure from their Dva running me over. Or guess what, enemy Ana is pushed up too far forward with no cover, great dive target for me, but no she gets pocket and there's Cass spamming at me. They didn't get their damage nerfed, but my healthpool was and there's 1 more person shooting at me. I'm experiencing shorter windows of opportunity and less of them at the same time, because of the sheer damage output. Blatant mistakes now get rewarded, because it's way easier to peel.
Wow, I had a completely different experience plaguing main tank than you! I thought i would always be playing off tank, but I enjoyed main tank more!! 21:00
im a support main and im having a LOT of fun playing off tank in min1max3, a lot of my games end up full of support players so its been really nice being able to let them play support and switch to my Zarya to support my other tank and trade off pressure! I used to play tank a lot more in overwatch 1 where i didnt have to be the main initiator since that doesnt fit my playstyle as well, so its been fun to see that re-emerge with the less restrictive non role queue and 6v6 in the current test!
I found it strange that you didn't mention Junker Queen when talking about heavy handed cooldowns; she's terrible in this 6v6 patch. In 5v5 her shout is an engage tool, she gets some wounds off for sustain and then in a while she has shout to disengage or react to cooldowns like Ana nade. During this test she doesn't have the health pool to engage without cooldowns, her shout was on way too long of a cooldown and the life steal barely existed; especially since knife got blocked by two tanks. I always found myself waiting around a corner going "okay, 6 seconds until I can tank again". Just terrible. Front lining feels a lot better in 6v6. In 5v5 if you frontline you can't really help out the rest of your team while taking space, in 6v6 you have another tank that can peel and keep your team safer. I think one of the reasons that supports became pretty healbotty is because of the DPS passive. The reduced healing really just meant healing the same target for longer periods of time. DPS damage is more effective but at the cost of lowered support damage output from having to focus on healing meant ttk really didn't change. To quote Medic from TF2: "Ze healing is not as rewarding as ze hurting". It wouldn't be as apparent for Bap, Brig, Illari, Lucio, Moira or Zen that can damage and heal at the same time. Ana, Juno, Kiriko, Weaver and Mercy are the ones to feel it.
Brutalizing her lifesteal was a bad call that we knew was a bad call before even playing. JQ felt like shit before they buffed her passive in 5v5. I don't think the dps passive makes supports more healbotty. I think it makes support *players* more healbotty, but if Ana's right click does 75 dmg versus 60 heals, you should really be leaning into the damage at least as often if not moreso. After all, their supports are struggling too, and one dart from you could tip the scales either way.
I'm not gonna lie, and this might be a hot take But I see a LOT of the community complain about the Season 9 changes, and sure, I scoffed when I first saw them, with how big the projectile hitboxes were, etc. especially in the context of the 6v6 test But I don't really mind them in the context of the 6v6 test Sure I'll grant you, I think maybe some other things should've been tweaked, damage numbers wise for it, but broadly speaking, I think it was an alright shakeup I know OW Classic is by no means a comparable state of the game to current Overwatch, but I found myself a little taken aback by just how fast you'd get utterly blitzed down I do think more heroes that rely on "Damage per second" attacks (Winston as a prime example) could've done with a touch more lethality being added to their stuff, but I certainly don't think it ruined the 6v6 test As Gavin Winter said (And you yourself echoed) I didn't expect them to revert ALL of the projectile size increases, damage increases given as a result of Season 9, cause the sheer list of changes they'd have to make to bring it down to that level would be, in itself, insane. Reverting characters to their old values, trying to find places for the new heroes, etc. That's at least the lens I'm coming at it from, it still felt like Overwatch to me, the Overwatch I fell in love with, and it got a lot more of my friends playing tank, whom were utterly resistant to playing tank in 5v5 (Or would only queue tank in 5v5 cause they didn't want to leave me as the Tank every game) I also love being able to off tank / generally having a friend shouldering the tanking burden makes it way less stressful) Of course I VASTLY preferred the 2-2-2 test to the Min 1 Max 3, but I would take Min 1 Max 3 over 5v5 as it exists right now.
I personally prefer 5v5 over than 6v6. Yes playing with a tank duo is fun but I feel like it's a lot more chaotic with 2 extra players. Overwatch itself is a very stimulating game and having those 2 players can add by a lot. It also adds to the "Ugh that team are on those characters". You might be happy that you're rein and zarya combo is back, but having to deal with double bubble rein can be slightly tilting at times. But that's just my personal preference.
As much as the role passives get shat on, I really think the DPS passive is the most necessary, as it is one of the main reasons the 6v6 test didn't feel like it had too much sustain. I actually think the Tank and DPS role passives are very reasonable; the support passive--don't really care for that one in 6v6.
The concept of min 1 is a lot more fun and allowed from some of the creativity from OG ow than 222. We can adjust the numbers if triple tank or triple support with illari is too strong.
im kind of split; i love 5v5 bc i can play wrecking ball in every game, on every map, etc, HOWEVER in 6v6 i dont have to worry about being fully counterswapped by the enemy team and having to play 50 steps ahead of the enemy like to do any work, at a cost to ball not being quite as strong as he can be with the two tanks to bully him, but he definitely has an easier time being a distraction and a menace to help the rest of the team pressure
Great Video! The only thing I would personally disagree on (might be an issue of preference) was Winston feeling worse in 6vs6. I actually had completely opposite results from what you have when playing him: I found myself absolutely exploding in 5vs5 with out of any ability to apply any actual pressure against supports (Playing Winston into Lifeweaver/Mercy was a nightmare, the consistent healing felt completely impossible to break through), DPS, or tanks (Especially against certain match ups (Roadhog)). My experience is that every support had two less players to worry about, (the tank they had to help sustain in the fight and a tank which was supposed to pressure them to reposition, to distract, or both), which meant that supports were allowed to easily focus heal anyone on their team making it impossible for any non-burst-damage tanks like Winston to get a kill by themselves. In 6vs6, even though Winston had less effective HP and Armor, he felt much better to play as, no matter what match up it was, (except Zarya/Mauga, it was still very possible, but was much more difficult for Winston then it was for Mauga or Zarya). It felt much more strategic and skillful, with Winston being very reliable on playing around his bubble and leap in order to kill a DPS or a support. The match up was also more winnable in a 1vs1 scenario for an opposing player since it wasn't as much based on who has a higher health pool, but more on the fact who outplays one another, for example: A Winston playing around his bubble really well, or a Genji who hits 3 Headshots continuous Headshots (even though very unlikely, still more possible then trying to breakthrough 5vs5 healthpool with the same Genji having to hit twice as much Headshots then in a previous match up). The fact that Winston is not being able to "peak" with out of loosing his entire health pool sounds more like a skill issue, at least in my opinion (please, correct me if I am wrong). I am pretty sure that if you have to walk in order to pass the zone of crossfire, then you made a mistake managing your Leap cool down. Winston's mobility should allow him to cross these dangerous areas of the map to angles where enemies will feel less comfortable shooting at. And even if you do explode, it probably means that you "cheated" your setup stage of the fight, where you jump straight into the enemy. At least, that was what my experience was. i am not reading all that
@@soccerthepkmnmaster Well, by talking about skill and strategy, I meant that the hero has much more carry potential, since he doesn't rely on his and someone's stats (HP, Armor, Self Sustain), making the worse match ups feel much better for him. He also felt better in cases where he wasn't normally able to confirm eliminations, which is basically every tank, so I did not mind including it, even though it does feel better on him then any other tank. His bubbles feel much better to use, since there is much more depth to it, with another player on the team, making him even more engaging. Its just that feeling of "that bubble was so smart, it helped my teammate" which you do not really get in 5vs5. His burst damage combo also works much better against tanks, due to smaller health pools.
@@soccerthepkmnmaster It still does, but bubbles are mostly used for just tanking damage and protecting yourself against CC (which still feels good) and not as much playing around your team.
I'm not gonna lie, even as someone that does not have a problem with 5v5, this 6v6 test did felt good overall. I only started playing main tanks in OW2 and I have to say that they felt particularly awful in 6v6 compared to 5v5, you feel like you gave almost no agency due to being ultra reliant on your team to follow up on your engagements, not feeling like a threat or a particularly big roadblock just makes the role feel very awkward and specific, almost like playing launch symmetra where you are playing more for the cooldown you provide and not for you actual fun. Angle taking squishies also felt a bit worse with off tank being so good at controlling angles, where as in OW2 they mostly feel like independent heroes that can go on their own little adventure and control important part of the map on their own, in 6v6 this play style feels less valuable and more dangerous, this is really map dependant though.
They have a LOT of balancing work to do to make 6v6 close to as fun as it used to be. If they do bring back 6v6 permanently and put in the massive amount of work to do the balancing properly so that the game is actually playable, then maybe I will play Overwatch again. I don't trust this dev team or their competence so we'll see what they manage to pull off while Rivals continues to hold the fire to their asses. Half-assing the conversion to 6v6 like they did when the game went to 5v5 is unacceptable, so they need to get their shit together and step it up.
They really shouldn't be shocked that the player participation was only 10% for the 6v6 test. Not fully balancing the mode and removing 5v5 changes for the 6v6 test, drives people away. Releasing the test at the same time that a competitor game just came out that is giving people what they want, which is that overwatch 1 feeling, drives people away. Basically coming out and saying "hey these tests pretty much mean jack shit because we aren't actually going to change the game regardless", drives people away.
Also most of the new players that joined after OW2 and f2p haven't really had any incentive to desire a 6v6 playtest, so I bet many didn't really bother. Also the mode being time limited and having no competitive integrity and questionable timing didnt help
@@Autumn_21-s4z It's not excuses, it's called context. If you wanna be a dumbass like the dev team and ONLY look at numbers with zero context, you are more than welcome to live in that lalaland right with them. But down here on Earth and this thing called reality, yeah! Those things I listed 100% affect the player participation of the test mode.
@@supperenet9090 and that makes perfect sense for someone who started in OW2. 5v5 is all you know so you're more accustomed to it. But don't let 6v6 tanking from that test fool you, that is NOT OW1 6v6 tanking. They didn't even bother trying with the balance of that mode.
Do you think more hero tips would help the issue with map synergy? Like we used to have warnings in the open queue days about not playing 2/2/2, we could have little tips on the side when picking heroes on certain maps. Pick Rein on Gibraltar and a little tip appears to make the player think twice about their pick. Not telling you to swap outright, just an fyi. You could have that on every hero when picking them; a small rundown of their strengths and weaknesses contrasted by a map "qualifier" (ie: Gibraltar = important highgrounds). As in you'd have a sentence or two about your hero (as concise as possible) next to another one about the map itself (or maybe just have the map infor somewhere else). It could be a game changer for new players and might increase match quality and new player retention. The user could, as you can now, disable these tips down the line. I know some would say it dumbs the game down too much but improving game quality (if it does) is better than gatekeeping. Some players would disregard the tip altogether but at least the game makes you think about your choice more than you initially would. I think Overwatch struggles with conveying important hero information to new players. A system like that would improve their experience.
I still believe that Rein needs most of his kit's power moved into his charge and out of his shield, so that Rein doesn't have to be a team escort shield bot. I think his shield is a crutch for a lot of players, and its time the community learns to not stay in chokes, and use the natural map cover more.
I played a lot of Kiri in 6v6 and I don't really agree she feels bad. First couple of games I was healboting and it was awful but once I got the hang of it she felt really good. It was also so much easier to find value for kitrush.
I do think an open-q role lock format is the way to go, we've stomped anyone trying 2-2-2. We've been running 2-1-3, 1-2-3. Pretty much the same comps we run in rivals and the results are pretty much the same.
idk about comp balance but 1 tank is at least made overwatch feel more like a shooter game, because tanks dont need to aim hard but still kill you easily
Honestly it seems less an issue on format and more an issue about what to do with tanks. Seems like each format's largest sticking point is tanks. Support and DPS seems like a toss up depending on if you want less pressure or more agency. Hope the big update includes changing tanks regardless of format because both would need it
Why did they nerf the out of combat heal? It makes solo support impossible. If anything it should’ve gotten buffed going in because there’s more people shooting at you. Idk how we’re 2 years in and these devs still don’t understand that supports and healing causes sustain issues not mitigation.
Honestly I was a 6v6 sceptic, but the test actually pleasantly surprised me, and I had a lot of fun playing it. I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one enjoying it, and I think It should definitely come back as its own mode, but I don't think it should replace 5v5. I think the two can peacefully co-exist, and why have OR when you can have AND?
Armor needs to change. Season 9 was supposed to nerf burst damage but the armor changes go against that. Playing against a junk or Pharah is so difficult on tank.
I would argue that the rein and winston not feeling good thing is a problem with their individual balancing. Like, rein having to shield bot isn't necessarily the format. I don't think it would be bad at all to remove shield health and 1. give him his old unique cc reduction passive back, and 2. maybe give him more armor/health after reworking it like you said. I'm very convinced these would help how he feels a lot and make him less one dimensional. basically my point though is that I just don't like how you framed it as if it was inherently a main tank issue while also only brining up rein and winston who both could individually use help.
but weren't the projectile sizes changed back along the healthpools in ow classic? sure there's more heroes now but saying it was technically impossible doesn't make sense to me.
I don’t think so, I remember peoole mentioning they were still using old hitboxes. As far as health pools and CDs etc, they were just picking them from an old patch instead of having to balance for a modern game
I think this video was made before the last director's take. We had 10% of all of players in 6v6, and that was with people leaving for rivals. They are gonna do a 6v6 comp next season!! Im hyped!! Adios 5v5, for me at least
12:36 I agree that there should be a combination of old and new armour with the added exception that armour shouldn't stack with the existing tank headshot passive, it should use whatever is stronger but not add them together as this maintains tank survivability but keeps it so that you can still do reasonable dmg
"rivals has definitely diminished a great deal from player base" lmao it was at 400k on launch and now is at 380k.... oh no we lost 5% of the main hype after 2 month, huge player drop hahah (if you know games stats this is a joke most games lose over 50% after 2 month)
I feel like the reason the main tank experience wasn’t as good was a lot to do with balance though- especially from the hp pools; rein for example only had that 550 hp pool which was what rein was at when he was good in ow1 and since more squishy heroes are now more tanky, they can put out more pressure for longer against him-not to mention because of how mobility and denial abilities have increased since launch ow2, rein just really struggles (I still loved him though-Rein OTP all the way baby)
Overall I think 6v6 was a lot better, even for main tanks. I've been a main tank player for ages, and the pressure/stress of solo tanking finally going away was all I wanted, really hoping for the switch to 6v6.
I dont play much ow2 right now. But that isnt due to rivals. Its due to studies and mh wilds. As long as ow2 will be around, it will be my fall back game when im tired of everything else.
@morganfreeman5260 never implied that. Compared to what ow support can do rivals sups are more broken However when you compare what wast majority of dpses in ow can do vs majority dpses in rivals can do the dpses of rivals are miles ahead in both power and options So DPS vs support in rivals is better than DPS vs support in ow at least for the most part. I can see how some tuning with ult cost/duration/functionality can easily resolve the problem with support being op in rivals. I can't say the same for ow without reworking characters like kiri, illari, weaver
Rivals is very fun, but it falls short hard. The game is all about sustain ults unfortunately. It's cooked having to track 3 support ults per team that essentially pause the game for 10 seconds each. If you get into diamond in rivals, you can at least ban the those strategists.
Maybe give main tanks the ability to small damage boost or heal a small amount other players of their choice for the damage they take using mechanics similar to Zen or Brig. When Rein’s shield is down, he will be taking damage while dealing damage, then when the shield is up he could boost a 76 or Reaper, or heal/armor an off tank or Mercy. That might give some identity and agency you speak.
as a winston otp i disagree 6v6 makes one tricking tank viable it creates the mechanical possibility for outplays that are not possible in 5v5. just a fact of having more variables. the skill gap between good and great MT players is much wider in 6v6. it’s more mechanical. it’s more fun. counterswapping is a non issue in 6v6
Curious to hear your opinions on flankers dps like genji/tracer in general. I assume you don’t mention them in the video because either you didn’t have much experience of them in 6v6 tests due to limited time, or they largely feel the same. If it’s the latter it makes sense. Yeah there’s one more tank to contest me as a flanker in off angle, but tank is easier to duel due to lower health so it evens out.
I thought main tank (Reinhardt, I don't play the dive mt's) was much improved. Sure you still get bad games, I agree that it's not consistent. But having someone else on your team who at least is supposed to understand your role helps a lot. A lot of the social problems of main tank are 10x better in 6v6. The playstyle feels better too even with the firestrike+charge nerfs. Instead of having to do everything, I can instead focus in on the main tank aspect of space control, where it's me directly challenging the enemy frontline and each of us managing our resources. In 5v5 it feels like each of us is a puppet on the support players' string trading meaningless damage back and forth until something happens. In 6v6 I have less control over the match at large b/c I'm not a kaiju anymore, but more control over my own immediate niche of defining the frontline and creating opportunities for my team. That's the feeling that I want from main tank, I don't want to be the all-star, I want to be the general. I also didn't mind the Season 9 changes for 6v6 although I hate them for 5v5. In 6v6 they helped buffer out the sharpest spikes while also ensuring that things still die. I'll be curious to hear what you have to say about S9, especially the dps passive. I personally like that when the dps shoot someone, their target is guaranteed to take damage. That is one of dps' sore spots and I don't think the devs' solution hurts the other roles, especially with 2 tanks sharing the load. It is definitely true that tank (main, off) would be much more fun if non-tank players understood the role. But you can't expect that of the Overwatch community, it's been 10 years and people still don't understand what you are supposed to do on dps or support either. If I hear one more support yapping about how their role's job is to "fix mistakes" I'm gonna lose it, as a support main myself.
In regards to bad tank comps on certain maps, I would also agrue as a pro 6v6 argument, that tanks are not as oppressive as they are in 5v5 so sure its harder to be -2 (two bad tanks for the situation and they have 2 good ones) but is it worse to be -2 with weaker tanks or -1 with a super tank with inflated hp, stats, damage and passives? Guess it depends but I much prefer the downsides lf 6v6 over 5v5 for this
I played a ton of rein in OW1 and OW2. I just don't think there are any health pool, armor, cool-down, or damage tweaks you can make that are going to feel better than having 2 Firestrikes & smoother charge turning. I don't want OW1 rein in 6v6, I want OW2 rein in 6v6. Balance be damned.
I can agree main tank is still a dismal experience in 6v6. Had a really awful game as rein. My team was blaming me for not taking space but there's not much you can do on rein into junk, doom, venture tossing you around. Don't get me wrong, I like 6v6 more. I just wish the role felt more rewarding.
6v6 2 2 2 just reinforced that i prefer the format. I think it also just re-enforced that i think the whole design around most of the main tanks is wrong. I think that they are too passive too often. You end up waiting for a lot of things rather than acting. A lot of the main tanks even have things that make them slower, like walking with rein shield or orissa fortify, etc.
RANKED MODE CONFIRMED for NEXT 6v6 TEST: overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24167662/director-s-take-looking-back-and-looking-ahead/
Hey Spilo! I know this might be a tough ask as it's more work for you, but would you consider putting the music used in your description? I could definitely recognize the tracks you use in a lot of your videos (Giorno's theme jumpscare in this case). It's a really underappreciated part of making videos, and I wish more people took it into consideration when making content especially for those who might ask "wow, that track was really good, I wonder what it was."
I hope you at least consider it! 🙏
Crazy how you talked about them doing a ranked mode and then uploading the video around the same time they confirmed it.
Beautiful editing
yay
They really need sensible balance for that I think
Playing off tanks was always the more fun. Ow1 problem was never off tanks it was because people didn't want to play main tank.
Poeple didnt want to play tank in general, thats why my queue times in ow1 were always seconds long.
When I played it felt like people wanted to pick hog and ball, just dps heroes with bigger HP idk felt like shit, I hope for a major hog rework if we go back to 6v6 cuz any tank player queuing up and getting a hog tank partner is just lame
@@Shrimp4GuraBoth can be true. Some players didn’t mind playing Tank but only liked off tank. If they keep getting forced on Main tank then they would just stop playing tank all together. That happened to me and others I know.
@@gamist8166as a gm ball since a little after his release... I love my piggy partners... So... Personal problem ig
I was always essentially forced onto main tank, which was fine with me, but it meant whenever I played with friends I always got stuck on rein or orisa. I love main tank don't get me wrong, but there's definitely ways to make it more favorable without affecting the other roles too much
i was an off tank main in ow1 and when ow2 released it felt like my role had just been deleted from the game. really great to see it come back even in just a test environment and hope we get more of this.
sad to see every offtank getting outclassed by every 5v5 tank, you cannot do anything agaisnt them because they have every single ability in the game.
Same haha and when I played DPS I would go Doomfist 😭😭💀💀
@@rainer9931 its crazy that even if doom was dps in ow2 literally every support would out dps him.
Dvs is broken af on console so we kinda got the opposite feel.
@@Copemaxer if dps are broken on console, supports must be even better
I think that a lot of the reason characters like Rein and Winston don't feel very different in the 6v6 test has to do with season 9 and the way they balanced the characters.
I had a significant amount of play time playing Reinhardt and Ram on the original 6v6 (7hskw) code with 200hp health for squishies. Both characters felt leagues better compared to both 5v5 and the 2-2-2 playtest. Season 9 changes how these characters interact in tank trades. With the increased health pools in season 9, tanks need a proportional increase in damage In order to exert a similar amount of pressure on squishies and take space. (examples below)
1.rein hammer going from 85 -> 100
2. ram punch going from 60 -> 75
3. Zarya beam going from 170 -> 190 dps at full charge
HOWEVER, if you look at the health pools for TANKS in the 6v6 2-2-2 mode, they are almost identical to the health pools in OW1. (Reinhardt is exactly the same as peak 85 damage hammer buff Reinhardt, and only 25 armor more than end of OW1 Reinhardt).
This means that tank trades are now significantly more lethal than they were previously, on top of the fact that frontline spam, which is more effective in 6v6, is even stronger due to the larger projectile sizes. (you take proportionally more damage than you would pre s9 - higher damage, same health).
This on TOP of the DPS passive reducing healing by 20% that ALSO lingers 2 seconds makes it very difficult to take space without shielding to prevent exhausting even more resources due to the inefficiency of healing tanks while they take damage, and even discourages shield hopping since you will keep the dps passive on you the whole time.
Basically, s9 punishes aggression from initiators due to the increase frontline pressure (caused by increased health pools) when you overstep to the point where its not worth doing, working in tandem with the DPS passive preventing healing from recuperating HP effectively. This leads to a very boring gameplay loop where you try and avoid taking as much damage as possible instead of trying to initiate in order to prevent drawing an unsustainable amount of resources from your supports.
The compensating buffs they DID give to Reinhardt (2000 shield health) even further incentivize this, since shieldbotting just becomes the most optimal way to take space. I do believe that this line of reasoning applies to other initiators as well, although I am most knowledgeable about Reinhardt.
Thank you for putting this into words much better than I could during the interview. All I could come to say was "it feels good to kill things" but this theory completely backs up my feelings. Well said!
OW devs haven't learned from their mistakes even after OW2. It blows my mind man.
They couldn't make 5v5 work (mainly because you _can't_ make it work), AND they're setting up 6v6 to blow AGAIN. Even after they were given *TWO* opportunities to completely rework the game from the ground up (three if you're counting the actual conception + launch of OW1), they are STILL making the exact same mistakes.
At this point, it's safe to conclude that the OW devs are simply straight shit at their jobs. The failure of OW2 wasn't caused by only greed, it's also because the game's developers are dumbasses. Very disappointing.
i seriously don't know why they haven't reverted s9 yet, was such a stupid set of changes
I just want to point out: although the twitch viewership has gone down, Rivals' playerbase essentially hasn't diminished at all; it was roughly 400,000 around launch, and it's around 400,000 now. There was a peak at the start of season one, but the fact the game has seen nearly perfect player retention so far is notable.
One thing I noticed is that a lot of boops have been tolerated in 5v5 (because the tank passive is so strong) feel uncounterable in 6v6. How do you ever land a JQ axe on a junkrat when he can teleport you to the skybox with one cooldown, and how do you even get near lucio after all the buffs his boop has had.
Jq is just atrocious in the 6v6, the cd on shout is like 17 seconds or something + the cd only begins once the shout is over..
not to mention brig whipshot
Yeah of course they should decrease the cd in 6v6 @@Swatotastic
they're still scarred from the ow2 beta where jq was hard meta from her shout and were even more hesitant in 6v6 to make her strong
Slightly off-topic, but I can confidently say supports is by far the most problematic role design-wise in Marvel Rivals rather than tank
Most of their ults basically just being "Zenyatta ult, but lasts longer and provides an additional buff" is just really shitty and lazy game design imo
girls wont play if support will take at least 1% of skill
@@flowerly-m5ycool casual sexism for no reason
@@flowerly-m5y That feels rather sexist and not productive to the conversation.
Sometimes when I’m on dps or tank and supports start ulting, I genuinely just go afk, I mean what else am I supposed to do 😂
@@dragoninventor Yeah well its partially true. How often you see chicks top fragging as a DPS? Not so often ngl
I can't take min1 max 3 seriously. It is just a diet open queue, and It still has all the same problems. If they were to replace OQ with M1 M3, then that would be fine, but it can't replace 2/2/2
Agree 💯. Also you it is "first come first serve" which is stupid in the sense that you get locked into either tank or support when you can't or don't want to play either of them. I'd rather have everyone choose their desired roles beforehand so everyone is comfortable playing.
I think it was always meant to be a form of open queue no? like being able to swap to any role/hero (with a restriction). Also I think hero picks mattered alot for comps that weren't 2-2-2 as well as how they synergised with the team imo. But when you do get a team like that (tho rarely) it felt AMAZING.
Yeah, the problem with no role queue is that this is an unranked gamemode. Almost every game is triple random dps or triple tank, usually one support. It’s unplayable this way and unless you are 6 stacking, most of the rounds are just meaningless mayhem with no strategy
@Swatotastic Even with ranked, it would still be a problem. You will still get people insta lock dps and refuse to switch until it is already too late.
Another problem is if someone is a "master" support player and they join a game with 3 other supports and they are forced to play tank, which they might only be "plat" yet the game treats them as if they are master and then they are way out of their depth.
They probably did it so people would complain and they wouldn’t have to add 6v6 back
one of the reasons I love your analyses is because you are fully aware when your arguments are leaning on bias or subjectivity, and when they are leaning on objective facts. Armor is inconsistent: fact. Long cooldowns are not fun: opinion.
Overall good analysis, I personally don't mind long powerful cooldowns (like 30 sec revive for example), but pretty much everything else I agree with.
It’s fantastic that MR came out at the right time for the people who would have actually played it didn’t so now it looks like no one cares!
Ok but at this point those players largely aren't coming back. Why cater to people who aren't actively playing/enjoying overwatch when there are millions of players who like the game now?
We had predicted it
@glasspaper3 I don't get that attitude, just because people are trying a new game, doesn't mean they'll never play the old game again. That isn't even how it works...
If the original ow1 was here rn everyone would be playing that and rivals while ow2 would actually be dead
@@glasspaper3the point is that if they had listened to the community earlier, they would have done these tests ages ago and maybe if they had implemented 6v6 by now, overwatch would actually be real competition for rivals. But of course, like everything blizzard trys, they self sabotaged by leaving it until after the majority of the playerbase that cares already left.
I was there the whole time and support was consistently the longest queue.
So actually proportionally support players loved 6v6
Tank was the shortest queue ofc
That's not what that stat means. I played mostly supp in 6v6 because I was most interested to see how it felt. But it felt absolutely horrible.
@@Nyxtia I can say the same thing, your experience doesn't mean everyone wanted to play to see how it feels, wouldn't tank be the role that most people would like to see how it feels since it's the one impacted the most? Some played because they like support, others to test it, but after a few days of playing it, the que times for support should lower if that's the only reason.
@@YOnuTz02 The difference is I didn't make any claim it was the only reason. There are multiple factors that go into it. Tank is never going to be the most played role unless it's temporarily when a new hero drops. It's always between dps and support and my point is simply that one being more popular than the other doesn't directly equate to one being more enjoyable than the other.
I enjoyed the 6v6 a lot more than the 5v5 we've had for a couple years. I had a lot of fun with the game, but rivals came out and took up 90 hours of my free time in the past month. Plus a lot of my friends have been fed up with overwatch and preferred rivals. So I ended up barely playing. But overall, I really enjoyed the 6v6. It was my favorite state of overwatch since the beginning of overwatch 2. I hope they don't take the wrong lesson from the release of rivals and think that 6v6 was a failure.
They probably will take the wrong lesson tbh. In their dev blog they said 10% of players queued for 6v6 QP compared to 30-40% for 5v5, and they said it as if it was a bad turnout for a mode that launched at the same time as a direct competitor and got pushed off to Arcade after a week or two.
On the topic of season 9, I wholeheartedly agree with the problems with lethality but more from the perspective of the major discrepancy between the cast now. 200 on widow, 300 on reaper? 175 on tracer, 275 on cassidy? I don't like that big of a gap even as a dps or support player. Not to mention the breakpoints they've had to individually choose to bring back and only for select heroes.
Major point here being season 9 was described as a way of nerfing heals, I actually think in the end all it did was mess up breakpoints and the lethality of the game.
I believe 5v5 is the better mode, and first of all, I've been playing mostly tank since overwatch 1, and I reinhardt is my main, the thing is, as you said, off tank felt great, but main tank just doesnt, and that will end with a lot of people (including me) not wanting to play those tanks, even more when abilities like suzu exists in that enviroment.
But this video really made me thought that with the right adjust and reworks, 6v6 may work better than the last month in ow1 or even just better than 5v5. Part of me still thinks that a lot of people wants 6v6 back because nostalgia and the "before everything was better" mentality.
And it's true that people don't seem to remember that we will face again the same problems as before, and the biggest one is... queues, the percentage of ppl that like to play tank is very small when compared to dps or support. If you add a second, you could atract some players back, but I doubt the change to 6v6 will double the amount of people playing tank, so it will translate in longer queues for dps and supports, not only in quickplay, but also in ranked, double shields metas, characters that just don't work in 6v6 (kiriko for example)
Also I'm a firm believer that 5v5 at least, in the esports scene is just better, it's easier to track what is happening in a game, without it being a chaos of cameras and speed, and yes you're just taking away 2 players, but that's enough to make the game more legible.
From the games I've played, csgo and valorant, those have been the best to watch in esports, and that's because you have a time to rest, and a time to engage, you have rounds, you have slow paced gameplay, fast paced gameplay, etc... etc...
Of course for a lot of players that's just boring to play, but not always to watch.
OW and MR are two games full with this frenetic non-stop fight, with little time to rest between fights, unless the round/match is over. It looks good when played, but horrible when you're trying to figure out what it's happening.
It's true that doesn't matter if 6v6 or 5v5 comes to the scene this will still happen, but you can't deny that 5v5 makes fights shorter or again, easier to read for the viewer.
6v6 for the game will be nice I guess, but If I was team4, I would keep 5v5 as the "esport" experiencie, and that being reflected on rankeds, having 5v5 and 6v6 at the same time, one for the more "esport focus experience" the other for the "game experience" and that's something that could truly create a new debate, having two versions of the same core mechanic, both living, within the same game, of course you can't have the best of both worlds in exchange for nothing, so the long queues will remain a problem.
Simply solution just make 4vs4 way better than 5vs5
Ball having no shield hp was devastating to his passive heals, both the rate per second and the overall heal-to-full time
he easily getting every healthpack. he is already very strong in right hands and nearly unkillable if no counters.
@@flowerly-m5y ofc, but it's just felt anti-qol. In 5v5 all you have to do is grab a mini and you can be in the fight in a few seconds, while in 6v6 you need to grab a mega
@@jackcern6776uhh, ball should not just need to go and grab a single mini to immediately get back in the fight…
I literally just spoke about this elsewhere lol. While playing ball I would repeatedly go in instinctively and forget that I don't have shield health or a strong healing passive anymore which caused me a bit of problems. I had to remember to go for another mega or take up a second of our supports time. It does feel kinda awful to have to wait so long especially when you're already set up and it's just the hp that's holding you back. Ball does feel great to play and I don't mind them attempting this because of a sustain playstyle but it does hurt his uptime quite a bit which is one of balls main qualities as a tank.
I was a main tank player in OW1 and played Tank for the first year and a half of OW2. Tank in the 6v6 formats were the most fun I've had on the role since OW1. Although the role has eternal negatives, I feel they were greatly mitigated by the existence of a 6th player. Even playing min.1 max.3 felt objectively better than current format for me. The more macro oriented gameplay is what drew me into OW and it returning in some form with the 6v6 tests has re-sparked my love for the game.
The armor thing is the kind of thing most people would probably realize after thinking about the issue for 5 minutes. Don't know how the devs still haven't implemented it
I think this entire testing cycle is confirmation that the current Dev Team really needed to experience 6v6 as a format for themselves, based on many of the points Spilo brings up in the video. There were a few glaring omissions and, what I'd call, distractions in the process of re-designing and balancing everything that would have drastically improved the format for a lot of the heroes/roles. Calling it growing pains as the OW2 dev team tries to rewind back into a different design mentality.
I will say, Main Tanking is miles better in 6v6, just b/c of that extra Tank demanding attn. from the enemy. It can still feel like you're exploding, but those moments are punctuated by an attempt at an unlikely strategy, as opposed to 5v5 where it comes down to whatever god you pray to shining a light in the enemies eyes so they don't notice you're trying to do something.
Armour, Tank CDs, Tank Health, and a minor Knockback Passive (20%) w/ individual Tank options to increase that % with certain mechanics (Ex. JQ's carnage animation, Reinhardt deploying his barrier, Winston Leap, should all double that %) are all good shouts for what should be considered, but also Damage/Healing burst and most Passives removed entirely.
On Projectiles? I do not understand why they have been avoiding the main method of balancing Projectile spam that OW1 used pretty liberally. Drop the Travel Speed on the majority of them. It doesn't need to be drastic, but if you don't want Hanzos and Junks launching down lane from a safe distance, make the projectiles easier to avoid the further from the hero's you are. Hanzo's arrows used to be way slower, same with Junk 'nades, Sym orbs, Pharah Rockets, etc. Force projectile heroes to play closer and increase their risk, especially if the damage output isn't going to change much.
From what I remember Rivals was suppose to release a bit later in 2025 but they seem to have released it earlier than expected.
And it's extremely obvious that it came out too early
@josephpoole3942 at least no hero breaking bugs like unlimited bastion ult on release
@ Yeah that shit has so many bugs, It definitely needed more time to cook.
Originally it was supposed to come out in 2020 before OW2, but then 2020 happened......
@@certifiedfunnyguyThe only time bastion feelt like BASTION
I appreciate your insight about why the season nine changes weren't reverted. When the 6v6 balance patch was released, some folks I knew were extremely frustrated and I suspected there was *something* we were missing.
Being honest I did not play much of the 6v6 test for one very simple reason, that being that to me junker queen felt awful. In 5v5 she feels like butter to play but in the limited time I did play her in the test I never could quite understand how she could take space or support on an angle. Like she has the tools but the sustain nerfs she received felt either like I was so relient on shout (long cooldown cycle as spilo mentioned) to be able to engage that I felt I couldnt do that when I wanted to, or that I was so reliant on my other tank taking space for me which was never consistent, not to mention that I alweasy felt it would have been better to just be on a different ake that could either more effectively frontline or effectively off tank. I wonder if this is just a skill issue on my end or somewhat indicative of an issue that may affect one of the single best characters they have made (imo imo obv) which Iwould absolutely hate to lose if 6v6 ever does come back in a more permanent way (that would prob be at least a year away bc owcs)
I'm 100% convinced that NetEase is doing everything in their power to make sure overwatch fails. The release window of Rival's was no accident.
the good games of 6v6 I've had are such a high that reminds me of how great overwatch can be, but the good games feel few and far between. I'm not really sure where I stand on what the main mode should be
Good to hear I’m not the only one not drooling over Marvel Rivals. It’s fun but it just doesn’t hit the same. I found myself going back to OW2 and trying new heroes over playing any Rivals
As a support player, I felt way more myself in 6v6, I felt like there was a ton to do to support my team, and heal botting didn't even cross my mind. Maybe it's because my other healer and I would naturally split the difference and cover eachother and each tank anyway, idk it just came naturally.
Glad I'm not crazy when it came to "engage" tanks. I've been a main tank player since 2018, and really didn't like the 6v6 test. I didn't feel like I could really take any risks. Just play it very methodical and safe. I feel way more impactful and engaged in 5v5. I remember seeing a lot of DVa, Roadhog at the end of OW1, and it makes sense after this test.
The season 9 changes were the straw that broke the camel’s back imo. I don’t remember the reception of this game being as negative as it is until then, neither did my enjoyment diminish so much to the point where I’m taking longer and longer breaks. Even on your channel, as one of the most positive voices in the community, you find yourself tackling these concepts such as burnout, dev blaming, real life health and such topics only became prevalent since then at least to my findings.
I've picked Orisa next to Sigma or Ram a lot in the playtest, specifically if we were going against a Rein, because Rein can bully those two so badly, and Orisa is one of the few tanks that can meet Rein's physicality with physicality of their own. For me, the reworked Orisa in 6v6 is a lot closer to an off tank, being a peeler, than a front line dmg sponge like in 5v5, or a shield bot in OW1.
Old hog felt bad. They changed right click from 10m to 13m for some reason. really messed with my "feel" of right click
I KNEW there was something off about it
I honestly didn’t know the 6v6 test was here. I would have played it lol
Love how on 12:39 you talk about the armor problem and I think is not nearly talked about ENOUGH.
For me the armor revertion was THE ONE change that completly fucked up the balance of junkrat. He had been taken on a better direction slowly, and that change outdid a lot of that.
And in 6v6 this one change cause junkrat to become that much better on this format, in the WORST posible way.
There is other things can contributed to it like the s9 hp pools and how much downtime tanks have, making that junkrat getting a tank away that easily get even more value, and then the mine higher cd forcing him to play that much more safe.
There is a talk to be had about the direction of junkrat, and armor is the big bad that needs to be adressed if we ever want to move junkrat forward.
I really do hope they listen to you solution, because its THE MOST IMPORTANT thing that needs to happen for junkrat to ever be shifted on a better direction.
Great video man❤
I just had a lot of fun figuring out how the new tanks fit in the main and off tank role.
Me and my old tank duo from the overwatch one days had a lot of fun with thing. We ran sigma ram a lot, which technically could be considered double shield, but the strength of the combo is less that and more enabling ram more with sigma shield and the rock.
Ramattra in general is fun in the format because his base form kinda plays like an off tank, but his nemesis form plays like a main tank.
I dont think I will ever play this game again, except for ball in 6v6. I had so much fun playing 6v6 ball and I really havent been having fun in ow for a while
Same.. mostly playing rivals now myself.
@@Kineticfriction13 for me its mostly been The Finals
6 v 6 ball is peak ow, its like a cocaine line for me
Literally the only reason I have it installed is because of ball. He’s too unique to not enjoy
@ ditto
Bold of you to not be all faithful in our saving graces of 6v6
Nice review ! I'm looking forward for the s9 video next, because I really like your input :)
Same
Thanks man! Love these analyses!
As a ball main your take on tank lethality makes a lot of sense...until you factor in the dps passive. My solo kill potential went down but my ability to setup kills went up. A good setup with a dps can get a kill without every fight coming down to the attrition of resources.
I agree. As a ball main the only issue I really had besides the projectile dps domination spilo talked about was the shield health that ball had in 5v5. I got very used to that consistent healing and heavy uptime that was possible with the healing passive/shield health coming back quick. In 5v5 I can go for a mega and be full health by the time I'm set up again. In 6v6 I have to wait a while, get another mrga or rely on a bit of resources from the support. A bit weird to adapt to after playing 5v5 for a long time but other than that Ball feels great to play.
Love your hot takes, Spilo! Hope you never stop being a voice for the OW community.
yeah i agree with the take about wanting a smaller knockback reduction for all tanks. not all of them need the big one, but i remember playing a 6v6 game as JQ on new junk city on the point where it's beneath the bridge with the boxes to climb on high ground, i kept trying to climb to the high ground and everytime i got up there the enemy brig would immediately whip shot me back down. i literally couldn't participate in the team fight happening on high ground and it was just a very frustrating experience
Jojo soundtrack for talking about tempo is a great idea
The tank duo synergy was such a massive part of OW1; for better or for worse. Because of how 5v5 was rolled out, it was always going to be met with animosity from OW1 players. We were basically expected to have blind faith in the OW team knowing what's best for the game, despite that trust not being built beforehand.
With the whole sh*t storm timeline between OW1 & OW2, any remaining trust players had in the OW team diminished even further. So, even when the devs are willing to release public tests for a 6v6 format, players are quick to call it 'sabotaged' & 'false hope'.
I think OW has their back against the wall right now & they need to dig in if they want to stay alive. A 6v6 mode on its own won't save OW, but I think the way they're publicly testing the 6v6 format shows a shift in the right direction at rebuilding that trust.
After watching people be all hyped about 6v6 i genuinely decided to put away my memories and personal experience of 6v6 in OW1 and give it a try. And Oh God it felt so much like a remember it. I had A LOT of fun on zarya because i get to dps and be beefy without really taking all the punches but pretty much any other role felt just as terrible. After some more playing i got the feeling that i won't be playing 6v6 except for trying the new iteration and if the game shifts all the focus back to 6v6 i'm probably out. I'm primarily a tank player and 6v6 that was made mostly for tank players just doesn't do it for me. And it's becoming difficult to think "maybe the next 6v6 will actually show me what's fun about it, maybe i'm just missing something".
Armor should be a mechanic only given to “engage tanks”
It can be balanced in a more honest way for the characters that have to be the first one under fire. If only rein, winston, ball, mauga, and ram form have armor then armor can have added properties while the tank has armor health left, (increased knock back reduction, crit damage reduction, along with the normal armor effects) all while restricting tanks like hog or sig who are under much less pressure from benefiting from the tank passives we’ve lived with.
It also implies more of an incentive for the tank to care armor health and is a big commitment when they engage without it.
It was fun. Hope it sticks around. Fun to change it up once in a while.
Also, I'm imagining these subtitles are AI because so many of them were wrong.
Not even checking the output before releasing the video? Yikes.
I was gonna comment the same thing but now I'm wondering why they disappeared halfway through the video
@@LukenszMk nobody does
I realized that when they logged the "um"
@@AsinfuIParadoxat 14:50 it turns "if we do go" into "if we google" too
I have the same feeling about playing Winston in 6v6, it was often quite awful and I had no impact, because my other tank played something that doesn't help me. If I even dared trying to dive against spam comps by myself, my uptime was like 2s of damage pressure, my bubble broken and I had to run to cover to not explode and I achieved nothing. I felt very helpless compared to 5v5. I play this game since 2017 so it's not like my 6v6 fundamentals aren't there. My lifetime winrate on Winston is 56% and suddenly I couldn't do anything.
My another issue was healbotting. I love playing Ana and other damage oriented supports. I really enjoy the skill expression of being able to multitask between pressure, healing and hitting skillshots like a sleepdart. My 6v6 experience was sometimes dreadful, because of that. I still did have games when I could pop off with my aggressive playstyle, but there were more games where I was forced to healbot way more and especially this feels awful in situations when my team was significantly worse. Try to make an impact by doing damage = my team dies and I get blamed for not healing, I try to healbot, my team isn't translating that into kills. It's a lose-lose situation.
The last thing that I dislike is how bad players can win games with an ease due to 6th person making up for them. It genuinely pisses me off, because of how many times I faced someone genuinely terrible and they got away with it. I could be dominating enemy Zarya in a mirror, but since the rest of her team was better than mine, I can't win. Or I play vs some awful Sombra, doing an absurd level of mistakes, but when I try to punish those by chasing her on Winston for example, then I face some insane pressure from their Dva running me over. Or guess what, enemy Ana is pushed up too far forward with no cover, great dive target for me, but no she gets pocket and there's Cass spamming at me. They didn't get their damage nerfed, but my healthpool was and there's 1 more person shooting at me. I'm experiencing shorter windows of opportunity and less of them at the same time, because of the sheer damage output. Blatant mistakes now get rewarded, because it's way easier to peel.
Wow, I had a completely different experience plaguing main tank than you! I thought i would always be playing off tank, but I enjoyed main tank more!! 21:00
Hey, nothing is clearly objective in this. As someone who used to main both Rein/Winston, it wasn't my cup of tea with this test.
im a support main and im having a LOT of fun playing off tank in min1max3, a lot of my games end up full of support players so its been really nice being able to let them play support and switch to my Zarya to support my other tank and trade off pressure! I used to play tank a lot more in overwatch 1 where i didnt have to be the main initiator since that doesnt fit my playstyle as well, so its been fun to see that re-emerge with the less restrictive non role queue and 6v6 in the current test!
Nice video !! Very cool perspective
I found it strange that you didn't mention Junker Queen when talking about heavy handed cooldowns; she's terrible in this 6v6 patch. In 5v5 her shout is an engage tool, she gets some wounds off for sustain and then in a while she has shout to disengage or react to cooldowns like Ana nade. During this test she doesn't have the health pool to engage without cooldowns, her shout was on way too long of a cooldown and the life steal barely existed; especially since knife got blocked by two tanks. I always found myself waiting around a corner going "okay, 6 seconds until I can tank again". Just terrible.
Front lining feels a lot better in 6v6. In 5v5 if you frontline you can't really help out the rest of your team while taking space, in 6v6 you have another tank that can peel and keep your team safer.
I think one of the reasons that supports became pretty healbotty is because of the DPS passive. The reduced healing really just meant healing the same target for longer periods of time. DPS damage is more effective but at the cost of lowered support damage output from having to focus on healing meant ttk really didn't change. To quote Medic from TF2: "Ze healing is not as rewarding as ze hurting". It wouldn't be as apparent for Bap, Brig, Illari, Lucio, Moira or Zen that can damage and heal at the same time. Ana, Juno, Kiriko, Weaver and Mercy are the ones to feel it.
Brutalizing her lifesteal was a bad call that we knew was a bad call before even playing. JQ felt like shit before they buffed her passive in 5v5.
I don't think the dps passive makes supports more healbotty. I think it makes support *players* more healbotty, but if Ana's right click does 75 dmg versus 60 heals, you should really be leaning into the damage at least as often if not moreso. After all, their supports are struggling too, and one dart from you could tip the scales either way.
Blizz should make an arcade gamemode where they just give you full control on balance
I'm not gonna lie, and this might be a hot take
But I see a LOT of the community complain about the Season 9 changes, and sure, I scoffed when I first saw them, with how big the projectile hitboxes were, etc. especially in the context of the 6v6 test
But I don't really mind them in the context of the 6v6 test Sure I'll grant you, I think maybe some other things should've been tweaked, damage numbers wise for it, but broadly speaking, I think it was an alright shakeup
I know OW Classic is by no means a comparable state of the game to current Overwatch, but I found myself a little taken aback by just how fast you'd get utterly blitzed down
I do think more heroes that rely on "Damage per second" attacks (Winston as a prime example) could've done with a touch more lethality being added to their stuff, but I certainly don't think it ruined the 6v6 test
As Gavin Winter said (And you yourself echoed) I didn't expect them to revert ALL of the projectile size increases, damage increases given as a result of Season 9, cause the sheer list of changes they'd have to make to bring it down to that level would be, in itself, insane. Reverting characters to their old values, trying to find places for the new heroes, etc.
That's at least the lens I'm coming at it from, it still felt like Overwatch to me, the Overwatch I fell in love with, and it got a lot more of my friends playing tank, whom were utterly resistant to playing tank in 5v5 (Or would only queue tank in 5v5 cause they didn't want to leave me as the Tank every game) I also love being able to off tank / generally having a friend shouldering the tanking burden makes it way less stressful)
Of course I VASTLY preferred the 2-2-2 test to the Min 1 Max 3, but I would take Min 1 Max 3 over 5v5 as it exists right now.
I personally prefer 5v5 over than 6v6. Yes playing with a tank duo is fun but I feel like it's a lot more chaotic with 2 extra players. Overwatch itself is a very stimulating game and having those 2 players can add by a lot. It also adds to the "Ugh that team are on those characters". You might be happy that you're rein and zarya combo is back, but having to deal with double bubble rein can be slightly tilting at times.
But that's just my personal preference.
Triple tank was no where near as annoying as triple support the only issue with triple tank is the fact that you can’t build ult charge.
As much as the role passives get shat on, I really think the DPS passive is the most necessary, as it is one of the main reasons the 6v6 test didn't feel like it had too much sustain. I actually think the Tank and DPS role passives are very reasonable; the support passive--don't really care for that one in 6v6.
The concept of min 1 is a lot more fun and allowed from some of the creativity from OG ow than 222. We can adjust the numbers if triple tank or triple support with illari is too strong.
Min1 feels so much more chaotic and unfun than 5v5. I'm out if they implement it, ngl
I would like to see in depth analysis of some more pro play for rivals, I am excited though for the future of overwatch
im kind of split; i love 5v5 bc i can play wrecking ball in every game, on every map, etc, HOWEVER in 6v6 i dont have to worry about being fully counterswapped by the enemy team and having to play 50 steps ahead of the enemy like to do any work, at a cost to ball not being quite as strong as he can be with the two tanks to bully him, but he definitely has an easier time being a distraction and a menace to help the rest of the team pressure
Great Video! The only thing I would personally disagree on (might be an issue of preference) was Winston feeling worse in 6vs6. I actually had completely opposite results from what you have when playing him: I found myself absolutely exploding in 5vs5 with out of any ability to apply any actual pressure against supports (Playing Winston into Lifeweaver/Mercy was a nightmare, the consistent healing felt completely impossible to break through), DPS, or tanks (Especially against certain match ups (Roadhog)). My experience is that every support had two less players to worry about, (the tank they had to help sustain in the fight and a tank which was supposed to pressure them to reposition, to distract, or both), which meant that supports were allowed to easily focus heal anyone on their team making it impossible for any non-burst-damage tanks like Winston to get a kill by themselves.
In 6vs6, even though Winston had less effective HP and Armor, he felt much better to play as, no matter what match up it was, (except Zarya/Mauga, it was still very possible, but was much more difficult for Winston then it was for Mauga or Zarya). It felt much more strategic and skillful, with Winston being very reliable on playing around his bubble and leap in order to kill a DPS or a support. The match up was also more winnable in a 1vs1 scenario for an opposing player since it wasn't as much based on who has a higher health pool, but more on the fact who outplays one another, for example: A Winston playing around his bubble really well, or a Genji who hits 3 Headshots continuous Headshots (even though very unlikely, still more possible then trying to breakthrough 5vs5 healthpool with the same Genji having to hit twice as much Headshots then in a previous match up).
The fact that Winston is not being able to "peak" with out of loosing his entire health pool sounds more like a skill issue, at least in my opinion (please, correct me if I am wrong). I am pretty sure that if you have to walk in order to pass the zone of crossfire, then you made a mistake managing your Leap cool down. Winston's mobility should allow him to cross these dangerous areas of the map to angles where enemies will feel less comfortable shooting at. And even if you do explode, it probably means that you "cheated" your setup stage of the fight, where you jump straight into the enemy. At least, that was what my experience was.
i am not reading all that
You did not really explain why Winston is better in 6v6, only said it was more strategic and skillful, which is extremely vague.
@@soccerthepkmnmaster Well, by talking about skill and strategy, I meant that the hero has much more carry potential, since he doesn't rely on his and someone's stats (HP, Armor, Self Sustain), making the worse match ups feel much better for him.
He also felt better in cases where he wasn't normally able to confirm eliminations, which is basically every tank, so I did not mind including it, even though it does feel better on him then any other tank.
His bubbles feel much better to use, since there is much more depth to it, with another player on the team, making him even more engaging. Its just that feeling of "that bubble was so smart, it helped my teammate" which you do not really get in 5vs5.
His burst damage combo also works much better against tanks, due to smaller health pools.
@@zerot216 Because there is another player... your bubble feel smarter? Because 5v5 has no smart bubble usage?
@@soccerthepkmnmaster It still does, but bubbles are mostly used for just tanking damage and protecting yourself against CC (which still feels good) and not as much playing around your team.
@@zerot216 In 6v6, you sit around your team more and take less aggressive duels?
Super agree ok the boops, removing the passive from tanks was a huge mistake
I'm not gonna lie, even as someone that does not have a problem with 5v5, this 6v6 test did felt good overall. I only started playing main tanks in OW2 and I have to say that they felt particularly awful in 6v6 compared to 5v5, you feel like you gave almost no agency due to being ultra reliant on your team to follow up on your engagements, not feeling like a threat or a particularly big roadblock just makes the role feel very awkward and specific, almost like playing launch symmetra where you are playing more for the cooldown you provide and not for you actual fun. Angle taking squishies also felt a bit worse with off tank being so good at controlling angles, where as in OW2 they mostly feel like independent heroes that can go on their own little adventure and control important part of the map on their own, in 6v6 this play style feels less valuable and more dangerous, this is really map dependant though.
They have a LOT of balancing work to do to make 6v6 close to as fun as it used to be. If they do bring back 6v6 permanently and put in the massive amount of work to do the balancing properly so that the game is actually playable, then maybe I will play Overwatch again.
I don't trust this dev team or their competence so we'll see what they manage to pull off while Rivals continues to hold the fire to their asses. Half-assing the conversion to 6v6 like they did when the game went to 5v5 is unacceptable, so they need to get their shit together and step it up.
Ok Spilo, I can't ignore this anymore. Whoever is responsible for picking the music for your videos has UNPARALELLED taste.
Max-3-min-1 keeps going to triple support in my games, especially if things aren't going well. And I've never seen that work!
They really shouldn't be shocked that the player participation was only 10% for the 6v6 test. Not fully balancing the mode and removing 5v5 changes for the 6v6 test, drives people away. Releasing the test at the same time that a competitor game just came out that is giving people what they want, which is that overwatch 1 feeling, drives people away. Basically coming out and saying "hey these tests pretty much mean jack shit because we aren't actually going to change the game regardless", drives people away.
Also most of the new players that joined after OW2 and f2p haven't really had any incentive to desire a 6v6 playtest, so I bet many didn't really bother.
Also the mode being time limited and having no competitive integrity and questionable timing didnt help
Or 6v6 isn’t that popular or wanted. Always an excuse smh
@@Autumn_21-s4z It's not excuses, it's called context. If you wanna be a dumbass like the dev team and ONLY look at numbers with zero context, you are more than welcome to live in that lalaland right with them.
But down here on Earth and this thing called reality, yeah! Those things I listed 100% affect the player participation of the test mode.
I didn't participate because I started from OW2 and 6v6 tanking isn't fun.
@@supperenet9090 and that makes perfect sense for someone who started in OW2. 5v5 is all you know so you're more accustomed to it. But don't let 6v6 tanking from that test fool you, that is NOT OW1 6v6 tanking. They didn't even bother trying with the balance of that mode.
Do you think more hero tips would help the issue with map synergy?
Like we used to have warnings in the open queue days about not playing 2/2/2, we could have little tips on the side when picking heroes on certain maps. Pick Rein on Gibraltar and a little tip appears to make the player think twice about their pick. Not telling you to swap outright, just an fyi. You could have that on every hero when picking them; a small rundown of their strengths and weaknesses contrasted by a map "qualifier" (ie: Gibraltar = important highgrounds). As in you'd have a sentence or two about your hero (as concise as possible) next to another one about the map itself (or maybe just have the map infor somewhere else). It could be a game changer for new players and might increase match quality and new player retention. The user could, as you can now, disable these tips down the line.
I know some would say it dumbs the game down too much but improving game quality (if it does) is better than gatekeeping. Some players would disregard the tip altogether but at least the game makes you think about your choice more than you initially would.
I think Overwatch struggles with conveying important hero information to new players. A system like that would improve their experience.
Orisa has needed a full rework since the very second she got her full rework. The whole of her kit is just a big lump of "pain points".
I still believe that Rein needs most of his kit's power moved into his charge and out of his shield, so that Rein doesn't have to be a team escort shield bot. I think his shield is a crutch for a lot of players, and its time the community learns to not stay in chokes, and use the natural map cover more.
I played a lot of Kiri in 6v6 and I don't really agree she feels bad. First couple of games I was healboting and it was awful but once I got the hang of it she felt really good. It was also so much easier to find value for kitrush.
I do think an open-q role lock format is the way to go, we've stomped anyone trying 2-2-2. We've been running 2-1-3, 1-2-3. Pretty much the same comps we run in rivals and the results are pretty much the same.
Hungover spilo goes hard
idk about comp balance but 1 tank is at least made overwatch feel more like a shooter game, because tanks dont need to aim hard but still kill you easily
Honestly it seems less an issue on format and more an issue about what to do with tanks. Seems like each format's largest sticking point is tanks. Support and DPS seems like a toss up depending on if you want less pressure or more agency. Hope the big update includes changing tanks regardless of format because both would need it
Why did they nerf the out of combat heal? It makes solo support impossible. If anything it should’ve gotten buffed going in because there’s more people shooting at you. Idk how we’re 2 years in and these devs still don’t understand that supports and healing causes sustain issues not mitigation.
Honestly I was a 6v6 sceptic, but the test actually pleasantly surprised me, and I had a lot of fun playing it. I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one enjoying it, and I think It should definitely come back as its own mode, but I don't think it should replace 5v5. I think the two can peacefully co-exist, and why have OR when you can have AND?
Developer time, queue times
I'm just glad we'll be moving on from it in any serious way tbh
Armor needs to change. Season 9 was supposed to nerf burst damage but the armor changes go against that. Playing against a junk or Pharah is so difficult on tank.
I would argue that the rein and winston not feeling good thing is a problem with their individual balancing. Like, rein having to shield bot isn't necessarily the format. I don't think it would be bad at all to remove shield health and 1. give him his old unique cc reduction passive back, and 2. maybe give him more armor/health after reworking it like you said. I'm very convinced these would help how he feels a lot and make him less one dimensional. basically my point though is that I just don't like how you framed it as if it was inherently a main tank issue while also only brining up rein and winston who both could individually use help.
I want 6v6 so they can make tanks that don't have the "press key to not die" abilities. Give us some variety
Pepper is officially a rein main, its confirmed
but weren't the projectile sizes changed back along the healthpools in ow classic? sure there's more heroes now but saying it was technically impossible doesn't make sense to me.
that’s exactly what i was wondering too
I don’t think so, I remember peoole mentioning they were still using old hitboxes. As far as health pools and CDs etc, they were just picking them from an old patch instead of having to balance for a modern game
I think this video was made before the last director's take. We had 10% of all of players in 6v6, and that was with people leaving for rivals. They are gonna do a 6v6 comp next season!! Im hyped!! Adios 5v5, for me at least
12:36
I agree that there should be a combination of old and new armour with the added exception that armour shouldn't stack with the existing tank headshot passive, it should use whatever is stronger but not add them together as this maintains tank survivability but keeps it so that you can still do reasonable dmg
"rivals has definitely diminished a great deal from player base" lmao it was at 400k on launch and now is at 380k.... oh no we lost 5% of the main hype after 2 month, huge player drop hahah (if you know games stats this is a joke most games lose over 50% after 2 month)
I feel like the reason the main tank experience wasn’t as good was a lot to do with balance though- especially from the hp pools; rein for example only had that 550 hp pool which was what rein was at when he was good in ow1 and since more squishy heroes are now more tanky, they can put out more pressure for longer against him-not to mention because of how mobility and denial abilities have increased since launch ow2, rein just really struggles (I still loved him though-Rein OTP all the way baby)
wait i just noticed that's a juno hoodie where did u get this 😭
Overall I think 6v6 was a lot better, even for main tanks. I've been a main tank player for ages, and the pressure/stress of solo tanking finally going away was all I wanted, really hoping for the switch to 6v6.
I dont play much ow2 right now. But that isnt due to rivals. Its due to studies and mh wilds. As long as ow2 will be around, it will be my fall back game when im tired of everything else.
Genji still having shit blade and 27 dmg even in 6v6 while support received buffs to their already overpowered role is what keeps me in rivals
calling supports broken then implying marvel rivals has balanced supports is crazy. Your opinion is just wrong
@morganfreeman5260 never implied that. Compared to what ow support can do rivals sups are more broken
However when you compare what wast majority of dpses in ow can do vs majority dpses in rivals can do the dpses of rivals are miles ahead in both power and options
So DPS vs support in rivals is better than DPS vs support in ow at least for the most part. I can see how some tuning with ult cost/duration/functionality can easily resolve the problem with support being op in rivals. I can't say the same for ow without reworking characters like kiri, illari, weaver
The whole game is just mid tbh
Rivals is very fun, but it falls short hard. The game is all about sustain ults unfortunately. It's cooked having to track 3 support ults per team that essentially pause the game for 10 seconds each. If you get into diamond in rivals, you can at least ban the those strategists.
@ sure bud. That's why it has half a million player on steam daily after more than a month after release
Maybe give main tanks the ability to small damage boost or heal a small amount other players of their choice for the damage they take using mechanics similar to Zen or Brig. When Rein’s shield is down, he will be taking damage while dealing damage, then when the shield is up he could boost a 76 or Reaper, or heal/armor an off tank or Mercy. That might give some identity and agency you speak.
as a winston otp i disagree
6v6 makes one tricking tank viable
it creates the mechanical possibility for outplays that are not possible in 5v5. just a fact of having more variables.
the skill gap between good and great MT players is much wider in 6v6. it’s more mechanical. it’s more fun.
counterswapping is a non issue in 6v6
15:52 good music choice editor
Curious to hear your opinions on flankers dps like genji/tracer in general. I assume you don’t mention them in the video because either you didn’t have much experience of them in 6v6 tests due to limited time, or they largely feel the same.
If it’s the latter it makes sense. Yeah there’s one more tank to contest me as a flanker in off angle, but tank is easier to duel due to lower health so it evens out.
I thought main tank (Reinhardt, I don't play the dive mt's) was much improved. Sure you still get bad games, I agree that it's not consistent. But having someone else on your team who at least is supposed to understand your role helps a lot. A lot of the social problems of main tank are 10x better in 6v6. The playstyle feels better too even with the firestrike+charge nerfs. Instead of having to do everything, I can instead focus in on the main tank aspect of space control, where it's me directly challenging the enemy frontline and each of us managing our resources. In 5v5 it feels like each of us is a puppet on the support players' string trading meaningless damage back and forth until something happens. In 6v6 I have less control over the match at large b/c I'm not a kaiju anymore, but more control over my own immediate niche of defining the frontline and creating opportunities for my team. That's the feeling that I want from main tank, I don't want to be the all-star, I want to be the general.
I also didn't mind the Season 9 changes for 6v6 although I hate them for 5v5. In 6v6 they helped buffer out the sharpest spikes while also ensuring that things still die. I'll be curious to hear what you have to say about S9, especially the dps passive. I personally like that when the dps shoot someone, their target is guaranteed to take damage. That is one of dps' sore spots and I don't think the devs' solution hurts the other roles, especially with 2 tanks sharing the load.
It is definitely true that tank (main, off) would be much more fun if non-tank players understood the role. But you can't expect that of the Overwatch community, it's been 10 years and people still don't understand what you are supposed to do on dps or support either. If I hear one more support yapping about how their role's job is to "fix mistakes" I'm gonna lose it, as a support main myself.
In regards to bad tank comps on certain maps, I would also agrue as a pro 6v6 argument, that tanks are not as oppressive as they are in 5v5 so sure its harder to be -2 (two bad tanks for the situation and they have 2 good ones) but is it worse to be -2 with weaker tanks or -1 with a super tank with inflated hp, stats, damage and passives? Guess it depends but I much prefer the downsides lf 6v6 over 5v5 for this
I played a ton of rein in OW1 and OW2.
I just don't think there are any health pool, armor, cool-down, or damage tweaks you can make that are going to feel better than having 2 Firestrikes & smoother charge turning.
I don't want OW1 rein in 6v6, I want OW2 rein in 6v6. Balance be damned.
I can agree main tank is still a dismal experience in 6v6. Had a really awful game as rein. My team was blaming me for not taking space but there's not much you can do on rein into junk, doom, venture tossing you around. Don't get me wrong, I like 6v6 more. I just wish the role felt more rewarding.
0:00 W way to start off a video my friend :)
21:00 not the question mark in chat 😂. Spilo is human too.
6v6 2 2 2 just reinforced that i prefer the format. I think it also just re-enforced that i think the whole design around most of the main tanks is wrong. I think that they are too passive too often. You end up waiting for a lot of things rather than acting. A lot of the main tanks even have things that make them slower, like walking with rein shield or orissa fortify, etc.