Been playing live gigs for years and found that I need a quick setup , so I have simplified my rig as a result. Keep it simple, nobody in the audience cares about complex rig setups and 4CM , as long as you are happy with your sound , it’s all about the songs in the end.
I almost exclusively use helix floor and hx effects with my amps. One of the many perks is putting a volume block after the return block and assigning a volume pedal to it. It allows you to control your volume without affecting your gain/tone. Same with like a volume/db boost. Anything after the return block is between your preamp and your power amp!
The IR-2 has output modes for connecting to different kinds of speakers. (PA, fx return, front of a clean amp etc) so that’s one advantage of using the IR-2 as your master device and putting the HX Effects in the loop.
The one situation the 4 cable method is very useful is I’m playing something with heavy gain, I need to put any solo boost in the FX loop, or else it adds no volume.
I love these type of videos. No, it's not something I feel like I need to know right now but it's like having an older brother that is way more experienced with gear/guitar taking the time to explain how things work or can be done to accomplish what I need.
If you're using drive on your amp, and also want to use time based effects, or use any kind of volume boost effectively then yes, you must use the 4cm. Unfortunately its more cable to untangle and clutter, slower to set up/strip down, and more that can go wrong. A cable snake helps massively though. However, there's some amazing amp in a box and preamp pedals now to allow you to use your amp clean, thus use delay, clean boost etc in the front end chain of effects: thereby just using 2 cables. I'm experimenting with this atm using an ehx the Glove.
I’ve setup my IR-2/HX Effects with the 4CM. The only difference is that I used a stereo FX send from the HX back to the IR-2 effects loop return using a TS/TS -> TRS splitter cable. The IR-2 L/R output is then configured to send stereo out to a mixer. It works great as is, but if I need to send the whole lot out to an amp, all I need do is spend a couple of minutes resetting the IR-2 output accordingly (see the ‘Specifying the amp to connect’ section of the manual).
The only problem I've had with drives or gain channel-switching, and time based effects in the amp's loop, is that as you switch to a higher gain setting in the preamp, a higher level is going into the delay or verb, causing the input of the delay to clip on the higher volume setting. By tweaking I can get it sort of OK, but it's always a but of a compromise. To use compression or limiting at this point would perhaps help, but it seems like unnecessary overkill. I'm working on a system at the moment where the preamp output goes into a chorus pedal, then splits into stereo, goes into stereo time-effects ( mainly analog delay) and returns to a four to two mixing stage, with the straight signal going left and right, while using a stereo volume pedal as time effects return to blend in as much effect as I want at any stage. ( sort of like using an expression pedal to blend in effects, but analog and simple. I'm trying to work it using two two to one A/B boxes with the straight sound going into the A's and effects return coming from the volume pedal through the B's. Obviously you have to watch out for ground loops and hums, but I had a perfect function using a mono effects return to a separate amp, and with a bit of work I'll be able to have stereo effects blended into the same stereo tube guitar amp. My old Mesa stufio preamp is still super quiet, so I've had no trouble runnuing it into the JCM 900 50 watt valve stereo power amp into two Marshall two/ twelve cabs. It sounds pretty good so far but needs some tweaking to get what is essentially a simple stereo/analog tube system that works live and needs no mic'ing up, but can be fed simultaneously to the front of house via the alternative " recording" out puts on the Mesa preamp, which actually sound pretty good for a nearly 40 year old system.
I've been a fan of 4CM for years. I bought the Boss ME-90 with the thought that it had everything I loved about the ME-80 and could do 4CM. It was pretty disappointing. I don't know why, but I learned that although a device can do 4CM, they may not be actually good at it.
With the fryette ps you can use the 4 cable method to get helix effects before your preamp and ‚between’ the 2 tube power amps, i.e. into the effects loop of the fryette ps. Or even get back from the line out of the fryette back into the helix for the cab sims … any routing is easily possible incl your real cab. Very practical at home and so far my best possible sound at any vol. for my (only) tube amp.
4CM with the IR2 as the main output causes you to lose any potentially stereo effects being recorded in stereo. Hearing it out of a mono source is still stereo since we all have 2 ears, but for recording, that's not what I would ever do either. If you have this setup, and don't care about stereo, then ignore me completely. :)
HX effects not only does not have headphones out or USB audio out, it also doesn't have USB audio in... The way I practice, I practice along with tracks that come from my computer, so I run an a-chex effects along with an HX stomp or Kemper for the amp(s), But I run four cable because the stomp or Kemper need to be the end of the chain so that I can send my complete signal and also the backing track to my PA speaker.
I've used 4cm with amplifiers for years. Imagine my surprise when using a modeler with its FX loop and the latency was unusable. I like my Headrush MX5, but apparently the latency doubles when using its FX loop. (Like 12ms). Add a wireless boss unit and the latency is unbearable
I really think the best way to approach 4CM (or even if it's needed) depends on the gear used on one side, then the type of music and effects used on the other. When I use my Helix floor, it's a standalone thing, amps and cabs and all time based effects are in the Helix paths, I have one external pedal in a loop (the Boss SY-1 synth pedal) that I bring in when needed and a couple pedals in front on a small board to the side where I have a tuner, a mini Ego comp and the Freqout pedal + a couple expression pedals (one for the SY-1 and one connected to the Helix). Very simple connectivity. The Freqout is essential to me as the new built-in feedbacker just doesn't work nearly as well and I found it very hard to tweak. The mini Ego is just my always on pedal for a little more sustain and thickener (I mostly play a Strat, sometimes a Tele and sometimes my PRS SE Custom 24-08 mostly on humbuckers. The Ego works great with all 3. For my tube amp rig (Revv Dynamis 7-40, 2 channels 40 watts head), I use a completely different board with an HX Effects on it that runs that rig. It's connected to the amp in 4CM with any mod, delays and revebs in the amp's FX loop. Any gain, comps from the HX as well as a few analog ones I have on the board live in front of the amp, exactly as you did here at first. The Dynamis has midi so I can have presets with channel selection, reverb on off including lenght as well as the Dynamics settings on the red channel (I LOVE that amp!) I could not have my HX Effects in front of the amp as its gain channel is one of my main gain flavors. As with most Revv amps, the red channel on the Dynamis has a very flexible gain structure with 3 "Dynamics" levels (usually called aggression modes on their Generator series amps).That channel is fat and chewy and I love it. I have a pedal for much more gain than the amp can provide and another for another flavor of crunch (the Revv G4 and G2 pedals respectively). As with the Helix, I have the Ego comp (full size this time) in front as well as another tuner. All the analog pedals, comp, G2, G4 and Boss SY-1 (which I keep on a small shelf besides me so it's the same used with the Helix) are connected to an analog midi switcher that lives in front of the HX Effects. These two setups work well for me but if I was using something like your IR-2 and I didn't want to use its "channels" , I'd go all in front too. But I'd go 4CM if I planned to use the IR-2's "channels". Keeps the time based effects way cleaner. Love seeing everyone's approach to these things :)
my delimma is how i should add this into my chain. i am waiting on the pre-order but currently my chain is this. ideally i still want to be able to use my amp with the band and rehearsal, but for practice id like to use the IR2 with headphones or to my DAW via usb. just trying to figure this out. 4 cable method: Gtr>Wah>HXE Input>HXE Output>Amp FX Return>Amp FX Send>HXE Fx1 Return>HXE Fx1 Send>Amp In HXE Fx2 Send>EHX Silencer Input> EHX Silencer FX Send>Mjolnir>Broken Arrow>Protein>The Elements>EHX Silencer FX Return>EHX Silcencer Out>HXE Fx2 Return
John or any one else who wants to chime in.....Forgive me for what might be a stupid question.....,Where would you put something like the all in one POD Line 6 Express... Effects loop or in front?
Does a helix amp preset go before or after the send/return in the chain? I’m plugging into a tube amp, and want the ability to use all the helix has to offer.
When using the IR2 with the hx fx instead of using a 4CM can’t you just put the IR2 in a loop and then put it in the signal chain after the drives and before the delays . Is that not the same ?
You can, but if you want the IR2 output (like using ir2 headphones out) need to do it 4cm with IR2 as the 'amp' as it was real. Not just inserting it into a loop in hx effects. Otherwise if you want to use headphones out of IR2 you'd have no wet effects.
Been playing live gigs for years and found that I need a quick setup , so I have simplified my rig as a result. Keep it simple, nobody in the audience cares about complex rig setups and 4CM , as long as you are happy with your sound , it’s all about the songs in the end.
I almost exclusively use helix floor and hx effects with my amps. One of the many perks is putting a volume block after the return block and assigning a volume pedal to it. It allows you to control your volume without affecting your gain/tone. Same with like a volume/db boost. Anything after the return block is between your preamp and your power amp!
Thank you for this!
The IR-2 has output modes for connecting to different kinds of speakers. (PA, fx return, front of a clean amp etc) so that’s one advantage of using the IR-2 as your master device and putting the HX Effects in the loop.
Most of the time, my go-to setup is a 2 cable method. Guitar to tuner and tuner to amp. Other times, it's 1 cable method.
The one situation the 4 cable method is very useful is I’m playing something with heavy gain, I need to put any solo boost in the FX loop, or else it adds no volume.
I love these type of videos. No, it's not something I feel like I need to know right now but it's like having an older brother that is way more experienced with gear/guitar taking the time to explain how things work or can be done to accomplish what I need.
I find the 4 cable method more trouble than it's worth. I just plug the output of my modeller straight into the return of the amps effects loop.
4 cable method: the absolute epitome of fannying around
If you're using drive on your amp, and also want to use time based effects, or use any kind of volume boost effectively then yes, you must use the 4cm. Unfortunately its more cable to untangle and clutter, slower to set up/strip down, and more that can go wrong. A cable snake helps massively though. However, there's some amazing amp in a box and preamp pedals now to allow you to use your amp clean, thus use delay, clean boost etc in the front end chain of effects: thereby just using 2 cables. I'm experimenting with this atm using an ehx the Glove.
I’ve setup my IR-2/HX Effects with the 4CM. The only difference is that I used a stereo FX send from the HX back to the IR-2 effects loop return using a TS/TS -> TRS splitter cable. The IR-2 L/R output is then configured to send stereo out to a mixer. It works great as is, but if I need to send the whole lot out to an amp, all I need do is spend a couple of minutes resetting the IR-2 output accordingly (see the ‘Specifying the amp to connect’ section of the manual).
Absolutely beautiful chord work at the end! 2:00
Ah the sweet tones of Old Yeller 😎
The only problem I've had with drives or gain channel-switching, and time based effects in the amp's loop, is that as you switch to a higher gain setting in the preamp, a higher level is going into the delay or verb, causing the input of the delay to clip on the higher volume setting. By tweaking I can get it sort of OK, but it's always a but of a compromise. To use compression or limiting at this point would perhaps help, but it seems like unnecessary overkill. I'm working on a system at the moment where the preamp output goes into a chorus pedal, then splits into stereo, goes into stereo time-effects ( mainly analog delay) and returns to a four to two mixing stage, with the straight signal going left and right, while using a stereo volume pedal as time effects return to blend in as much effect as I want at any stage. ( sort of like using an expression pedal to blend in effects, but analog and simple. I'm trying to work it using two two to one A/B boxes with the straight sound going into the A's and effects return coming from the volume pedal through the B's. Obviously you have to watch out for ground loops and hums, but I had a perfect function using a mono effects return to a separate amp, and with a bit of work I'll be able to have stereo effects blended into the same stereo tube guitar amp. My old Mesa stufio preamp is still super quiet, so I've had no trouble runnuing it into the JCM 900 50 watt valve stereo power amp into two Marshall two/ twelve cabs. It sounds pretty good so far but needs some tweaking to get what is essentially a simple stereo/analog tube system that works live and needs no mic'ing up, but can be fed simultaneously to the front of house via the alternative " recording" out puts on the Mesa preamp, which actually sound pretty good for a nearly 40 year old system.
I've been a fan of 4CM for years. I bought the Boss ME-90 with the thought that it had everything I loved about the ME-80 and could do 4CM. It was pretty disappointing. I don't know why, but I learned that although a device can do 4CM, they may not be actually good at it.
With the fryette ps you can use the 4 cable method to get helix effects before your preamp and ‚between’ the 2 tube power amps, i.e. into the effects loop of the fryette ps. Or even get back from the line out of the fryette back into the helix for the cab sims … any routing is easily possible incl your real cab.
Very practical at home and so far my best possible sound at any vol. for my (only) tube amp.
4CM with the IR2 as the main output causes you to lose any potentially stereo effects being recorded in stereo. Hearing it out of a mono source is still stereo since we all have 2 ears, but for recording, that's not what I would ever do either. If you have this setup, and don't care about stereo, then ignore me completely. :)
THX a lot John for this great and very helpful Video!!!
Yes 👍
HX effects not only does not have headphones out or USB audio out, it also doesn't have USB audio in... The way I practice, I practice along with tracks that come from my computer, so I run an a-chex effects along with an HX stomp or Kemper for the amp(s), But I run four cable because the stomp or Kemper need to be the end of the chain so that I can send my complete signal and also the backing track to my PA speaker.
Wow, was I first?!
I've used 4cm with amplifiers for years. Imagine my surprise when using a modeler with its FX loop and the latency was unusable. I like my Headrush MX5, but apparently the latency doubles when using its FX loop. (Like 12ms). Add a wireless boss unit and the latency is unbearable
4CM is good if all equipment match up to the task, however it's not worth the effort anymore.
Great playing Dude
I really think the best way to approach 4CM (or even if it's needed) depends on the gear used on one side, then the type of music and effects used on the other.
When I use my Helix floor, it's a standalone thing, amps and cabs and all time based effects are in the Helix paths, I have one external pedal in a loop (the Boss SY-1 synth pedal) that I bring in when needed and a couple pedals in front on a small board to the side where I have a tuner, a mini Ego comp and the Freqout pedal + a couple expression pedals (one for the SY-1 and one connected to the Helix). Very simple connectivity. The Freqout is essential to me as the new built-in feedbacker just doesn't work nearly as well and I found it very hard to tweak. The mini Ego is just my always on pedal for a little more sustain and thickener (I mostly play a Strat, sometimes a Tele and sometimes my PRS SE Custom 24-08 mostly on humbuckers. The Ego works great with all 3.
For my tube amp rig (Revv Dynamis 7-40, 2 channels 40 watts head), I use a completely different board with an HX Effects on it that runs that rig. It's connected to the amp in 4CM with any mod, delays and revebs in the amp's FX loop. Any gain, comps from the HX as well as a few analog ones I have on the board live in front of the amp, exactly as you did here at first. The Dynamis has midi so I can have presets with channel selection, reverb on off including lenght as well as the Dynamics settings on the red channel (I LOVE that amp!) I could not have my HX Effects in front of the amp as its gain channel is one of my main gain flavors. As with most Revv amps, the red channel on the Dynamis has a very flexible gain structure with 3 "Dynamics" levels (usually called aggression modes on their Generator series amps).That channel is fat and chewy and I love it. I have a pedal for much more gain than the amp can provide and another for another flavor of crunch (the Revv G4 and G2 pedals respectively).
As with the Helix, I have the Ego comp (full size this time) in front as well as another tuner. All the analog pedals, comp, G2, G4 and Boss SY-1 (which I keep on a small shelf besides me so it's the same used with the Helix) are connected to an analog midi switcher that lives in front of the HX Effects.
These two setups work well for me but if I was using something like your IR-2 and I didn't want to use its "channels" , I'd go all in front too. But I'd go 4CM if I planned to use the IR-2's "channels". Keeps the time based effects way cleaner.
Love seeing everyone's approach to these things :)
Any chance of the HX effect presets in the shop? That EJ tone is mega.
my delimma is how i should add this into my chain. i am waiting on the pre-order but currently my chain is this. ideally i still want to be able to use my amp with the band and rehearsal, but for practice id like to use the IR2 with headphones or to my DAW via usb. just trying to figure this out.
4 cable method:
Gtr>Wah>HXE Input>HXE Output>Amp FX Return>Amp FX Send>HXE Fx1 Return>HXE Fx1 Send>Amp In
HXE Fx2 Send>EHX Silencer Input> EHX Silencer FX Send>Mjolnir>Broken Arrow>Protein>The Elements>EHX Silencer FX Return>EHX Silcencer Out>HXE Fx2 Return
John or any one else who wants to chime in.....Forgive me for what might be a stupid question.....,Where would you put something like the all in one POD Line 6 Express... Effects loop or in front?
Does a helix amp preset go before or after the send/return in the chain?
I’m plugging into a tube amp, and want the ability to use all the helix has to offer.
Great video
Ah the 4 cable method... Used it for a while, when I was gigging, it is not worth the hassle.🤣
When using the IR2 with the hx fx instead of using a 4CM can’t you just put the IR2 in a loop and then put it in the signal chain after the drives and before the delays . Is that not the same ?
Yeah I think JC does that set up at the end.
@@stevethebeeline44 yeah I saw him doing it just as I was typing this
You can, but if you want the IR2 output (like using ir2 headphones out) need to do it 4cm with IR2 as the 'amp' as it was real. Not just inserting it into a loop in hx effects. Otherwise if you want to use headphones out of IR2 you'd have no wet effects.
Very odd drum beat in the intro song, it makes you sound out of time.
^^ glad I wasn’t alone in thinking that 😂
I thought the same thing!
old days when modeler texture is limit by dsp power, really need