I really appreciate the works being discussed added in the description :-) everytime I hear an author's name or their work mentioned, I always scramble to write it down and/or immediately research them, but it's nice to see that they're listed neatly where I can easily access them. Thanks, and keep up the awesome conversations!
54:40 saying that people who have a mobile identity can use that to justify imperial projects because previous imperial colonizers are “moving back and forth” is a bit of a stretch no? I might be missing something here. But I don’t see how these two (being mixed race and justifying imperial projects) necessarily relate.
47:57 Funny thing, Catholicism in general has a lot of mixture. Spanish Catolicism has itself a lot of local advocations of the Virgin, associated with caves, fountains, trees, and so on... If you know anything about Paganism, maybe this rings a bell. Basically, nearly two thousand years ago a priest said "so you have a goddess there, OK, that's the Virgin, let's put a shrine here". And, up to modern times, you will find people who admit not to be really Catholic, but they're attached to "their" Virgin.
A little late to add here, but thank you for this episode. As someone of mixed Korean and East European descent, identity has always been tricky for me. I read as white to Asians and some kind of generic "exotic" /Asian to most everyone else. Identity has been on my mind a lot as I work through issues that came up after my mother's passing last year and see them coming out in the work I am doing for my MFA. They cause so much silly anxiety; I found myself recently debating whether to enter a local art show for Asian-American artists because for some reason I was worried that my "Asian-ness" would be questioned by the jurors or the artists themselves (I did enter and got in so the jurors weren't a problem; reception is next week we we'll see if the artists are, haha).
35:02 what about "whitexicans"? It seems to be a constant in Latin America, that certain social groups (generally upper class) distance themselves from mestizaje. It reminds me of a recent controversy, in Argentina, where a political leader claimed to be a direct descendant of those "que llegaron en barcos" (post-2nd war european migrants). And he may be right, and his family may not have "mixed" too much, but it's a constant of certain European descendants in South America (Brazil is another great example of that, white Italian and German descendants in the dominant/upper classes) "Pigmentocracia" it's another interesting concept about the same thing...
Yes, whitexicans are exactly that group they're describing. A tiny minority of Mexicans that want to distance themselves from anything related to Mexico's mestizaje adopting more of a 'Euromexican' identity and because of that, they're highly mocked by society at large being the protagonists of so many memes. Important note, just because you're white and Mexican that doesn't make you a whitexican. A whitexican is a Mexican with all of those classists anti-mestizaje attitudes.
While I don't have these roots, I became fascinated with this dichotomy when I moved from the East coast to the West. From the East coast I know mostly darker Latin people from the DR and Puerto Rico. And I knew there was this caste type system between white and black Cubans. What I was highly unfamiliar with, even coming from NY, were these white blue green hazel eyed Mexicans and how they were simultaneously openly hostile to their darker brethren but also the camaraderie. Really some wild, but fascinating stuff to observe. It showed me that my younger self really only had a limited understanding of Latin America, both North, South and Caribbean.
This is a topic I didn’t know I’ve been waiting for, as this is something I’ve been thinking about more lately in relation or my personal life-great episode!
I'm impressed at the level of effort to dilute the biracial experience on the other side of the spectrum. This was as refreshing as it was frustrating. I'm here for it.
Maybe this bit of information is relevant to the analysis of my boy Vasconcelos, but he was tight with nazi for a while. I think you can research this through his publications on revista Timón. That was useful context for me to understand his fondness of race-related topics and the colonialism apologia.
Race is really a political classification based on physical characteristics. Being "Black" is considered a homogeneous grouping from the perspective of many White Americans. This is a historical development though because groups of Africans were ripped from their homeland and lumped as a singular group in the Americas by Euro-Americans. Over generations most of the enslaved Africans couldn't trace their lineage back to specific ethnic groups in Africa. Hence, Black became an identity, sadly imposed due to the slave trade. To this day most White Americans fail to understand or acknowledge the wide diversity of ethnicities and physical features of people with dark skin across Africa. What are Ethiopians compared to Bantu peoples for instance? Or Somalis to Nilotic peoples or the Yoruba? It's like saying Germans are just like Spaniards or Greeks to just lump people into racial categories. This lumping therefore becomes a proxy for political groupings that define power classes and groups deemed to be worthy of subjugation.
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy true. I really liked the contrast you made between the Germanic/Anglo colonialism in North America which kept separation and the Spanish colonialism which created a mixing. The process of homogenization over time is described in both negative and positive ways. The episode is a topic I might have skipped but I would have missed a very intellectually stimulating dialog with intricate nuance.
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy it's because of the one drop rule by white people and the combination of outlying are Mulatto identity by black people. The light skin men are ganged up on by the dark skin men for our women. And we are shamed as being soft and less of a man because of our looks whereas the women are praised. Just look in the media how Drake is currently being ganged up on by dark skin wrappers and being called white all the time. If we are not going full Malcolm X we become a problem or suspect.
nice talk. could listen to hours and hours of this. my own identity is even more fringe than those discussed: part south asian, part white british and adopted and raised by whites to "rise above" concepts of race. that led to a self inflicted erasure of the non white part and desperate attempts to pass as white while being too brown to do so. being adopted trans racially is not well understood. thanks for the insights.
I tend to think that how you see yourself as a mixed race person also has a lot to do with who the mother is. If the mother is white and the father is black that sometimes shows up differently than if the mother is black and the father is white. Obviously this is not true across the board but in the experiences of my own mixed race children and their mixed race friends there is a distinction in the white mother or the black mother and how the children view themselves. That's just our own experience. I wonder how other people have experienced or noticed this dynamic or if they haven't noticed it at all?? Also, is it different when the mother is Asian and the father is white? Tons of sub-conversations happen in all of these cases, all with various experiences.
I think there’s a multitude of factors that play into this, in my experience (african american white mixed, white mom AA dad, 21 year old college student) and from what i’ve seen from other black white mixed folks, there is typically a difference between their experiences and identities based on the race of their parents. Typically I’ve mixed folks with a african american mom and a white dad adopt more “white” culture, or a lack thereof of african american culture, whereas those with a white mom and a black dad typically adopt more of african american culture. For some reason I’ve noticed in hetero cis relationships the woman typically assimilates to the man’s culture, i think this has to do with patriarchy. But I think broader social movements also have some to do with how racial / ethnic identity manifest in mixed children. For example the black lives matter movement , Juneteenth recognization, etc. may make AA / Black mixed folks feel more in tune with and involved with that culture and thus begin to adopt it more. Thoughts?
The double bind (~14:00) is probably going to become more of a problem as long as the illusion of (white) racial purity resists reckoning with the reality of genetic heterogeneity. Something like this came up this week when a (hella brilliant atty, extra left) Black state legislator, unlike the other Dems, including all Black legislators, refused to vote yes on a bill for a study on racial inequities on skepticism of the value/gesture of yet another study, and specific to the point, expressed resentment of the bill’s White supporters as motivated by desire to self-congratulate or virtue signal. ..The idea of being all White or Black never made sense to me because of the genetic math that refutes it, while the math of the way skin color, like sex and gender, has been used to exploit and oppress people is undeniable and consistent. My own genetic/racial identity has evolved as I've learned about my ancestors & dna interacting with the environment. I’m not at all surprised at my paternal mixed/multiracial Lumbee heritage (nor my maternal hunter-gatherer mdna), while I grew up in a mostly White, run-down, neighborhood hundreds of miles away from tribal lands in a “White” family. I don’t regard my core identity/ies as a social matter (may be my autism there too), while I do humbly understand that the shade of my skin has prevented barriers and stressors for me that still oppress Black women in particular. . ... So when I was emailing her/them to urge an aye vote, I was compelled to also address her assumption, whereby I hoped to convince her that although I don’t claim to suffer from the ongoing injustices: , I also don’t resonate with her characterization of an ethical identity that corresponds to skin color: . I did play the intersectionality card though, but the point is that yes, it can be tricky to reconcile ie ‘social race’ with phenomenological race/ethnicity when they are predicated on unstable and weaponizable criteria.
Unfortunately it has disappeared from my bookshelf and I have not read it in decades, but a lot of the content here kept bringing *Caminemos con Jesus: Toward a Hispanic/Latino Theology of Accompaniment* by Roberto S. Goizueta to mind. I don't know how that book has held up to time and its perspective, while academically rigorous, is not completely outside of faith "looking in." If this podcast is part of a more specific academic project (as it seems to be), Goizueta may be helpful (and you can thank Prof Byrne for assigning his book in undergrad, if it is of any use).
Love this conversation, but let's stop referring to biracial people as "mixed". Puppies are mixed. And too often we're exotic pets of white parents who couldn't wait to have cute little brown babies.
I appreciate the effort but the mark was missed often when speaking on the Black/white perspective. I've read 30% of Mexicans have African DNA, I think too much credit was given to Mexico on their acceptance on being mixed race. It's selective.
Thanks for your comment! The reason for using 'mixed' rather than 'biracial' is because 'biracial' only applies to people who identify with two races, not more. 'Multiracial' is a preferred term in scholarship for this reason, and is often used synonymously with 'mixed-race': we opted for the latter after some discussion about it, including with someone writing their dissertation on this topic, largely because 1) 'mixed' is closer to the concept of mestizaje discussed in the episode than 'multi', 2) 'multi' implies that kind of additive notion of identity that many of the authors discussed in the episode take issue with, and 3) 'mixed' tends to be a more colloquially-used term that 'multiracial.'
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I really appreciate the works being discussed added in the description :-) everytime I hear an author's name or their work mentioned, I always scramble to write it down and/or immediately research them, but it's nice to see that they're listed neatly where I can easily access them. Thanks, and keep up the awesome conversations!
Thanks! You can also always find the Works Discussed in the episode webpage on our website, overthinkpodcast.com :)
54:40 saying that people who have a mobile identity can use that to justify imperial projects because previous imperial colonizers are “moving back and forth” is a bit of a stretch no? I might be missing something here. But I don’t see how these two (being mixed race and justifying imperial projects) necessarily relate.
47:57 Funny thing, Catholicism in general has a lot of mixture. Spanish Catolicism has itself a lot of local advocations of the Virgin, associated with caves, fountains, trees, and so on... If you know anything about Paganism, maybe this rings a bell. Basically, nearly two thousand years ago a priest said "so you have a goddess there, OK, that's the Virgin, let's put a shrine here". And, up to modern times, you will find people who admit not to be really Catholic, but they're attached to "their" Virgin.
A little late to add here, but thank you for this episode. As someone of mixed Korean and East European descent, identity has always been tricky for me. I read as white to Asians and some kind of generic "exotic" /Asian to most everyone else. Identity has been on my mind a lot as I work through issues that came up after my mother's passing last year and see them coming out in the work I am doing for my MFA. They cause so much silly anxiety; I found myself recently debating whether to enter a local art show for Asian-American artists because for some reason I was worried that my "Asian-ness" would be questioned by the jurors or the artists themselves (I did enter and got in so the jurors weren't a problem; reception is next week we we'll see if the artists are, haha).
Fun fact: Everyone found the Overthink Podcast randomly but started watching regularly!!!
35:02 what about "whitexicans"? It seems to be a constant in Latin America, that certain social groups (generally upper class) distance themselves from mestizaje. It reminds me of a recent controversy, in Argentina, where a political leader claimed to be a direct descendant of those "que llegaron en barcos" (post-2nd war european migrants). And he may be right, and his family may not have "mixed" too much, but it's a constant of certain European descendants in South America (Brazil is another great example of that, white Italian and German descendants in the dominant/upper classes)
"Pigmentocracia" it's another interesting concept about the same thing...
Yes, whitexicans are exactly that group they're describing. A tiny minority of Mexicans that want to distance themselves from anything related to Mexico's mestizaje adopting more of a 'Euromexican' identity and because of that, they're highly mocked by society at large being the protagonists of so many memes. Important note, just because you're white and Mexican that doesn't make you a whitexican. A whitexican is a Mexican with all of those classists anti-mestizaje attitudes.
While I don't have these roots, I became fascinated with this dichotomy when I moved from the East coast to the West. From the East coast I know mostly darker Latin people from the DR and Puerto Rico. And I knew there was this caste type system between white and black Cubans. What I was highly unfamiliar with, even coming from NY, were these white blue green hazel eyed Mexicans and how they were simultaneously openly hostile to their darker brethren but also the camaraderie. Really some wild, but fascinating stuff to observe. It showed me that my younger self really only had a limited understanding of Latin America, both North, South and Caribbean.
This is a topic I didn’t know I’ve been waiting for, as this is something I’ve been thinking about more lately in relation or my personal life-great episode!
I'm impressed at the level of effort to dilute the biracial experience on the other side of the spectrum. This was as refreshing as it was frustrating. I'm here for it.
Very interesting
Maybe this bit of information is relevant to the analysis of my boy Vasconcelos, but he was tight with nazi for a while.
I think you can research this through his publications on revista Timón.
That was useful context for me to understand his fondness of race-related topics and the colonialism apologia.
really enjoy your work Ellie and David.
Race is really a political classification based on physical characteristics. Being "Black" is considered a homogeneous grouping from the perspective of many White Americans. This is a historical development though because groups of Africans were ripped from their homeland and lumped as a singular group in the Americas by Euro-Americans. Over generations most of the enslaved Africans couldn't trace their lineage back to specific ethnic groups in Africa. Hence, Black became an identity, sadly imposed due to the slave trade. To this day most White Americans fail to understand or acknowledge the wide diversity of ethnicities and physical features of people with dark skin across Africa.
What are Ethiopians compared to Bantu peoples for instance? Or Somalis to Nilotic peoples or the Yoruba? It's like saying Germans are just like Spaniards or Greeks to just lump people into racial categories.
This lumping therefore becomes a proxy for political groupings that define power classes and groups deemed to be worthy of subjugation.
the episode goes into how 'Black' gets treated as a homogeneous category quite a bit
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy true. I really liked the contrast you made between the Germanic/Anglo colonialism in North America which kept separation and the Spanish colonialism which created a mixing. The process of homogenization over time is described in both negative and positive ways. The episode is a topic I might have skipped but I would have missed a very intellectually stimulating dialog with intricate nuance.
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy it's because of the one drop rule by white people and the combination of outlying are Mulatto identity by black people. The light skin men are ganged up on by the dark skin men for our women. And we are shamed as being soft and less of a man because of our looks whereas the women are praised. Just look in the media how Drake is currently being ganged up on by dark skin wrappers and being called white all the time. If we are not going full Malcolm X we become a problem or suspect.
No, they were purchased from fellow Africans who were the ones who "ripped" them from the land. Africans has massive slavery today.
nice talk. could listen to hours and hours of this. my own identity is even more fringe than those discussed: part south asian, part white british and adopted and raised by whites to "rise above" concepts of race. that led to a self inflicted erasure of the non white part and desperate attempts to pass as white while being too brown to do so.
being adopted trans racially is not well understood.
thanks for the insights.
Really great conversation philosophically
I tend to think that how you see yourself as a mixed race person also has a lot to do with who the mother is. If the mother is white and the father is black that sometimes shows up differently than if the mother is black and the father is white. Obviously this is not true across the board but in the experiences of my own mixed race children and their mixed race friends there is a distinction in the white mother or the black mother and how the children view themselves. That's just our own experience.
I wonder how other people have experienced or noticed this dynamic or if they haven't noticed it at all??
Also, is it different when the mother is Asian and the father is white? Tons of sub-conversations happen in all of these cases, all with various experiences.
I think there’s a multitude of factors that play into this, in my experience (african american white mixed, white mom AA dad, 21 year old college student) and from what i’ve seen from other black white mixed folks, there is typically a difference between their experiences and identities based on the race of their parents. Typically I’ve mixed folks with a african american mom and a white dad adopt more “white” culture, or a lack thereof of african american culture, whereas those with a white mom and a black dad typically adopt more of african american culture. For some reason I’ve noticed in hetero cis relationships the woman typically assimilates to the man’s culture, i think this has to do with patriarchy. But I think broader social movements also have some to do with how racial / ethnic identity manifest in mixed children. For example the black lives matter movement , Juneteenth recognization, etc. may make AA / Black mixed folks feel more in tune with and involved with that culture and thus begin to adopt it more. Thoughts?
The double bind (~14:00) is probably going to become more of a problem as long as the illusion of (white) racial purity resists reckoning with the reality of genetic heterogeneity. Something like this came up this week when a (hella brilliant atty, extra left) Black state legislator, unlike the other Dems, including all Black legislators, refused to vote yes on a bill for a study on racial inequities on skepticism of the value/gesture of yet another study, and specific to the point, expressed resentment of the bill’s White supporters as motivated by desire to self-congratulate or virtue signal. ..The idea of being all White or Black never made sense to me because of the genetic math that refutes it, while the math of the way skin color, like sex and gender, has been used to exploit and oppress people is undeniable and consistent. My own genetic/racial identity has evolved as I've learned about my ancestors & dna interacting with the environment. I’m not at all surprised at my paternal mixed/multiracial Lumbee heritage (nor my maternal hunter-gatherer mdna), while I grew up in a mostly White, run-down, neighborhood hundreds of miles away from tribal lands in a “White” family. I don’t regard my core identity/ies as a social matter (may be my autism there too), while I do humbly understand that the shade of my skin has prevented barriers and stressors for me that still oppress Black women in particular. . ... So when I was emailing her/them to urge an aye vote, I was compelled to also address her assumption, whereby I hoped to convince her that although I don’t claim to suffer from the ongoing injustices: , I also don’t resonate with her characterization of an ethical identity that corresponds to skin color: . I did play the intersectionality card though, but the point is that yes, it can be tricky to reconcile ie ‘social race’ with phenomenological race/ethnicity when they are predicated on unstable and weaponizable criteria.
I would love to listen to your podcast on ‘Freedom’
Unfortunately it has disappeared from my bookshelf and I have not read it in decades, but a lot of the content here kept bringing *Caminemos con Jesus: Toward a Hispanic/Latino Theology of Accompaniment* by Roberto S. Goizueta to mind. I don't know how that book has held up to time and its perspective, while academically rigorous, is not completely outside of faith "looking in." If this podcast is part of a more specific academic project (as it seems to be), Goizueta may be helpful (and you can thank Prof Byrne for assigning his book in undergrad, if it is of any use).
9:40 : let's all get mixed together to make conservatives maaaaddd.
Love this conversation, but let's stop referring to biracial people as "mixed". Puppies are mixed. And too often we're exotic pets of white parents who couldn't wait to have cute little brown babies.
I appreciate the effort but the mark was missed often when speaking on the Black/white perspective.
I've read 30% of Mexicans have African DNA, I think too much credit was given to Mexico on their acceptance on being mixed race. It's selective.
Thanks for your comment! The reason for using 'mixed' rather than 'biracial' is because 'biracial' only applies to people who identify with two races, not more. 'Multiracial' is a preferred term in scholarship for this reason, and is often used synonymously with 'mixed-race': we opted for the latter after some discussion about it, including with someone writing their dissertation on this topic, largely because 1) 'mixed' is closer to the concept of mestizaje discussed in the episode than 'multi', 2) 'multi' implies that kind of additive notion of identity that many of the authors discussed in the episode take issue with, and 3) 'mixed' tends to be a more colloquially-used term that 'multiracial.'
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy It's unfortunate your method failed the conversation. Most of your research did.
Don't- andt then- and try