Imagine writing such a dumb comment after having seen 3 series of Gainax max. They literally didn't make a single bad product until the last decade (well, they're basically dead after Medaka)
Having read up to first 15 volumes; This makes alot of sense in terms of how Berserk goes about it's business of strength and battles. One could even say that the presence of fate/destiny in the story gives Guts infinite "plot armour"( not saying this in a a negative fashion, but an observation). This episode aired around 98', so it's also interesting to see perspective on the various trends, types of stories, that cycles in, and out, of popularity in the manga industry. Berserk is wonderful, but not so separate from the ever continuing tapestry of manga history that it is immune sharing traits of the great mangas that came before it. Also seeing Dragon Ball and Berserk related to one another in the same conversation is really cool because both manga are wonderful and deserve to be celebrated.
As someone in the comments section pointed out, simply categorizing manga as two different types without actually taking the time to look actually analyze each one is foolish. Every manga has its cliches that come from other stories. This doesn't mean that these certain cliches represent the work as a whole. Just because there are scenes in berserk where Guts gets back up to fight again that doesn't mean it's an exact copy of a shounen manga like Fairy Tale or Naruto or One Piece. Guts certainly does deal with internal struggles, but he doesn't win his battles JUST because he overcomes these problems within himself. He wasn't born with a nine tailed beast inside him, nor was he the prophesied chosen one of any sort. He spent the almost total part of his life fighting. He overcame death many times through sheer tenacity and drew from experiences from fighting for his life to survive. He doesn't go super saiyan. He doesn't just get a power boost from nothing. He already built up that power from before. He worked for it. And even as he wins these battles, he still struggles with his own fate. Just because his story involves fighting and never giving up, that doesn't mean it's an exact replica of other manga. This man in the video saying that sports manga is different because the characters work hard to become better doesn't know what he's talking about. Guts clearly works hard to get what he needs, and what he needs is to survive. His entire story is about struggle, but this guy disregarded that completely. It's probably due to the fact that Guts gets upgrades later on, something that reminded him of a Saiyan going super saiyan. But the thing is, Guts getting the berserker armor wasn't a get out of jail free card. It brought on a slew of other problems for him, and his new comrades. What I'm trying to say is that this man saw a couple of familiar tropes within Berserk that he's seen in other manga, and categorized it in a broad way that ignores the themes of the story. All shounen protagonists struggle to win. But few ever really earn their victory the way Guts does. Some do, I'm not saying all shounen protagonists win due to bullshit, but the man in the video is implying that Guts survives due to this tired cliche. It's not true, and it's a very unfair assessment, both to Berserk, and all other manga that he just unfairly categorized by trying to connect point A to point B even though it's really not that simple
Since I just recently found this video again, I wanna say one more thing: This guy has an obvious bias for sports manga and it's causing his whole argument to sound uninformed and ignorant. He acts like sports manga is the only kind of manga that can have characters grow from experience. Probably because that's the kind of manga he enjoys reading. Granted, that's not necessarily a bad thing since sports manga isn't bad, but since he's making an argument between two sides as though one is "smart" and the other is "dumb," he needs to be called out on his bullshit bias.
I completely agree. To me he downgraded Berserk to a very low level and butchered it with his comparison . Not many mangas, animes have character development let alone good character development. Berserk is the only manga that gives me the feeling of being on a journey and actually see changes with real consequences.
LOL what the fuck did I just watch. So Berserk is a ''stupid'' manga because the protagonist doesn't have a reason for being strong, but Dragonball is a ''clever'' manga because power levels are a good enough reason? Also, he tries to make Berserk's fight look stupid by applying power levels to them. what the fuck.
Baka type manga in this discussion is referring to 'illogical' rather than 'stupid'. Dragon ball was just one example of a type of manga where a certain thread of logic is kept throughout the whole work. The work itself wasn't called clever, but was a 'clever guy' type manga. The power levels ARE a good enough reason to be strong within the Dragon ball world, as you said. Although that idea in itself isn't clever, what's important for this specific conversation is that the logic of power within the universe doesn't contradict itself. Berserk was called the illogical type of manga because Guts didn't have a concrete reason for being able to win against a much stronger opponent. Reading over the chapter again, the monster repeatedly says most people die/are unable to continue to fight by the first strike. Guts is only different from other people in the manga in that he continues to fight even when struck down. This wouldn't be enough of a reason to be stronger than an opponent leagues stronger than him in the other type of manga, labeled 'Clever guy' manga. A strong example would manga by Togashi Yoshihiro, who was referred to in the video. Take the end of the Hunter x Hunter Hunter exam arc for example. In the fight between Gon and Hanzo, Gon was heavily out-matched and the only strength he had over Hanzo was his mental strength and persistence. Hanzo was much stronger and physically beat Gon but conceded because he saw Gon's persistent spirit. Hunter x Hunter needed another reason for Gon to win other than that he's the main character. In Berserk obviously the monster doesn't show any pity for Guts and actively trying to kill him. Guts still beats the monster because he keeps on fighting. This in Hunter x Hunter would be like Gon beating Hanzo in the previous fight. In the Hunter x Hunter universe, Gon isn't allowed to beat Hanzo because logically he wouldn't physically be able to beat Hanzo in a fight. Guts however defies the logic in Berserk bringing out an awesome victory against all odds. This shows that the fundamental logic in the two worlds are different. One keeps a strong line of logic, and the other defies that logic constantly. This doesn't mean that Berserk is any less of a work than Hunter x Hunter or Dragon ball, but that they are DIFFERENT. They are fundamentally different and that was what was explained in this video using numbers to more easily communicate his logic. I'm sorry if it was confusing. I would recommend watching the video one more time.
I can't believe you actually agree with the guy in the video and you say that fights in Berserk are less logical that Dragonball. The guy in the video was doing the most dumb thing possible, applying powerlevels to Berserk and saying : ''see? no way someone weaker can win''. He didn't take into consideration strategy or willpower. Guts wins because he uses his brain while fighting, he has unstoppable willpower so he doesn't let pain and fear slow him down, he even jumps into fire or get himself impaled just to gain and advantage, or sometimes fakes being unconscious just to surprise the demon with his hand-cannon. There is much more depth to this kind of fights than Dragonball, were ''if you have a lower power level you can't win''. And Dragonball actually gets a lot more illogical, like in Frieza Saga, where Zenkai Power boost went for just a 33% ( Vegeta going from 18.000 to 24.000) to a x33 times power boost ( Goku going from 90.000 to 3 millions). As Teamfourstar said, ''power levels are bullshit''. And it gets even more illogical in Dragonball Super. I'm not saying fights in Berserk are completely realistical, but they tend to follow established rules ( like Guts having greater phisical strenght and endurance than an average human being, this was established since Golden Age). And at least there are no convenient power-ups at the right moment.
The argument given here is not that one is more or less clever, but that the two types are fundamentally DIFFERENT. Dragon ball has its own problems with its system and I wouldn't defend that, but it follows that same logic throughout. And it's NOT the prime example of logical manga. It was only referenced in order to tie in the power levels, to create a frame of reference, so the two manga can be COMPARED. Better examples would be Sports manga by Kajiwara Ikki or Shounen manga by Togashi Yoshihiro, like what were mentioned in the video. Berserk is a great manga. I read it too! I just want you to understand that Berserk thrives on Guts overcoming seemingly incredible odds. Obviously what Guts does is justified within Guts' world, but it wouldn't in another world. Guts is knocked down a few times by Nosferatu Zodd before Griffith and others come to his rescue in the Golden Age. In comparison, all the other characters have been mauled in 1 shot. Guts may have blocked all of the attacks, but he is knocked into a stone pillar that cracks at the impact. Guts is then able to dodge Zodd's next attack when Griffith comes to his aid. It shouldn't make sense that Guts is still able to fight at full strength. Guts seems to get STRONGER when he is injured, not weaker. This has been repeated many times. You said "Guts [has] greater phisical strenght and endurance than an average human being". That's not enough to say that attacks that would have ripped apart a normal person in two wouldn't even leave lasting wounds on Guts. It's not 'People die when they are killed' but 'Guts gets stronger when he is almost killed'. There is a fundamental difference in the two types of battle manga. AND IT'S NOT A BAD THING. In this discussion, after this interesting comparison, this guy Mr. Okada then goes on to praise Berserk by saying that this type of logic-defying power can really engage you into the story. The two styles of manga are different. I think the wording of his argument using 'baka' may have been misleading.
I want you to understand that I'm not some enraged Berserk fan, so you don't need to worry about that. And I understood the use of ''baka'' as ''illogical''. I'm just arguing that Berserk isn't really THAT illogical to me. I mean, it's kind of illogical at some points ( like Guts falling hundreds of feets and suriviving, no man, no matter how strong, should come out of that in one piece). But it almost always follow his own rules. Guts body has almost as much endurance as the monsters he fights, that of course is unrealistical but it's a fact within the story, a rule set for every fight. And finding more strenght than before when you are injured is not so weird as you might think: it's something your body also does in the real world. Adrenalin and ortosympatic system go over the top to ensure surviving: there's been cases of mothers able to lift a car to save their children ( and this are not just legends, or at least they shouldn't be, since I read it on medicine books). To me, the point the guy is making in the video should not appeal to Berserk: he said that Guts is winning through sheer willpower alone, which is not true. Guts uses strategy. Take the fight against Wyald and Rosine as an example. Guts often uses deception, or he's willing to sustain a minor injury to inflict a much deeper one. He let his arm be impaled to be able to blow Rosine chest away with his cannon, for example: His opponents, on the other hand, underestimate him and get injured much more than him.
I think I get what you're saying a little more now. This specific argument assumes that Guts is human. Therefore it's illogical that he could even have that much endurance to begin with. As for your example, what Guts is doing is like lifting the car after having his arms broken. Those rules that you are talking about are very different from other manga, so Mr. Okada also categorizes it differently. Of course it makes sense in that world because that's how that world works. As a reader it's believable that Guts can endure, but compared to some other manga it would be illogical. I also agree that Guts uses strategy and tricks in his fights. If you look at Hunter x Hunter again, you can also see moments where Gon or other characters survive seemingly impossible events. Great works of manga tend to be multi-dimensional and can be difficult to categorize. Mr. Okada's opinion is that at the core of Berserk is the illogical concept that Guts is inherently stronger than the rest of mankind and so he categorizes it that way here. Thank you for commenting. I felt the need to reply to you because you used strong language in your original comment. I think we understand each other's opinion a little better now.
but neither dbz or yuyu portrays these as the kind of inner struggle berserk emphatizes so much, other way of saying it is that in dbz and yuyu the characters seem fit to overcome their struggles and the drama comes from the confrontation, while in berserk this confrontation seems to work in tandem with inner struggles of the characters which, in turn, fuel their will.
Guts epitomizes the epic hero. The epic hero can be stronger, faster, or smarter than the average man without a need for justification. It's the conflicts and the story telling that truly matters more than what the epic hero is capable of doing. After all, he's supposed to be someone for readers to fawn on. I will also add in accordance to the backlash towards Okada that Miura isn't above criticism. He's not a god. A brilliant and creative genius, but not someone immune to imperfection.
@@zezuntxiduntxi That's not relevant to the point he was making. None of his training actually is needed to overcome a foe in the narrative. He doesn't train to overcome Boscogn, for example.
Everyone abuse this fat man, but Miura is a big fan of his reviews and anime. And the subject of his remark is the prosperity of Baka comics. (As of 1999) The meaning of "Baka" is light in this context. Simply categorizing manga as two different types is only an example to make the subject easier to understand. This TV program is not "criticized." It is funny to talk about anime and manga. . Anyway, the context has changed. Not serious.
Agreed. He didn't say anything offensive at all towards Berserk. What he said makes alot of sense. Folks are just in their feelings because they love Berserk so, but "struggle" to look at the manga objectively as a manga in the times, trends, the manga was released in.
I'm sure 99% of the people in this comment section believe Okada is just some random fat man they interviewed, not realizing he's one of the most influential persons in the anime industry lol
@@bluepoint9474 hol up how the hell an anime wasting 3 episode of screaming is more logical than an anime who literaly don't give a shit about chit chat
@@jack_hunt1103 Tell me you've never read Dragon Ball without telling me (also tell me you have 0 text comprehension without telling me, since he was talking about the power-system)
You see, this person's point of view is similar with a 15 year old boy who thinks that Berserk is all about slaying monsters and demons....And one more thing, comparing Berserk with Dragonball, Naruto or other shounen anime is a total hybris...
it's obvious that people's strength, and guts strength in particular, vary depending on the situation. guts didn't even beat zodd if he's talking about that time, he's only struggling at full power, kinda. the same when Goku is struggling against frieza that he has no hope to beat, and then he goes super saiyan out of the blue, he's still goku but his rage or will to win has taken him to another level. same for guts except that it's more subtle since he can't win either way, and he doesn't change appearance. guts power level varies then and he gets super human after the eclipse, but still varying from, say, 500 to 1500 depending on fatigue, hurt, will to win (increasing before monsters, less before holy chain thing), etc and zodd is now obviously more than 1000
ur clearly putting too much attention into how they speak vs how everyone else does, probably because its another language than what ur used to, cause literally everyone does that lmao
It's called cultural differences, try to respect other people's culture. Why do Americans curse all the time? Why are Americans so loud and obnoxious? It's a two way street you know. If you find other cultures annoying, the same can be said about yours.
I'm pretty sure Miura wouldn't give 2 shits about this guy. Adding bullshit Power levels in A manga such as Berserk? Are you fucking kidding me, Toshio? Is That how a Company Representative View other manga artists as such? Its like a 15 year-old trying to explain to his grandmother how google works like he's some engineer or whatever. So if it's a seinen, It's for delinquents? Some Critic...
I think Miura would have gave some shit about an influential figure like the founder of Gainax actually. Not saying he's right here, don't get me wrong. He is literally the "Otaking", he will encompass all the good and all the bad of Otaku culture in a way
Guys anyone with a brain doesn't agree with Otaking here, but please before talking randomly search up who he is. He's not a "random nobody". It's embarassing to see "random youtube commenter" saying the literal founder of Gainax doesn't know anything about his industry, no matter how wrong he may be
Guys he's the Otaku King, obviously he'll have both incredible insight on the manga/anime industry and at the same time he will share all the most dumb fixations of the average Otaku like battle-boards
I really wish this entire interview was uploaded/translated because I have a feeling Otaking is really being taken out of context by berserk fans. As a critic its his job to look at patterns and formulas used by manga artists over the years whether its to gain popularity or keep a stable readership and Kentaro Miura was no exception. There is no question Berserk has more depth than your average shounen manga and the story had many layers but Otaking is simply commentating on the battle aspect of the series. Anyone familiar with Toshio Okada knows he goes in great depths in discussing different works and he could easily do an entire lecture on Berserk alone so people saying he doesn't know what he is talking about is unfamiliar with the man.
My apologies to the uploader, I just noticed the entire episode was translated last year. Many thanks for taking the time to translate the entire episode, hopefully it will clear up this clip a bit more.
This is so wrong I've watched many fight animes, and as someone said once: "it's when you start giving strength numbers, that everything starts falling apart" such as DBZ, one piece you want to create power levels, with unthinkable strength to reach, always something higher like in dbz, naruto, bleach But berserk is something else, just the golden age, the flashback with the hawks, shows how deep this is I care about the story and the character development, not the fight or the strength actually
He's got Berserk all wrong. Guts isn't one of those protagonists who can use internal drives as a source of power to shrug off damage. At least early on, he's definitely reckless, but recklessness is not the same as stubbornness. The latter implies throwing one's self at an obstacle and refusing to submit no matter the odds. Recklessness however is throwing one's self at an obstacle when the odds are heavily stacked in the other direction. A character can be both, but one doesn't necessarily imply the other. Guts puts himself in mortal danger for an opportunity to get the kill because he knows that this is the only way he'll win. The first thing we see him do is let an apostle fuck him so he can jam his arm cannon down her throat. That's reckless but not irrational. Guts' stubbornness is long-term: he'll win big fights by outsmarting his opponents and taking advantage of their arrogance or whatever but then go on to the next big fight only not to protect people or even get revenge but to literally defeat his destiny. That's where we see him being foolish. I remember Flora telling Guts that his quest is impossible, but I'm sure multiple others told him earlier as well. Also it's just a central theme to the series in general with Griffith trying to do the same thing and become a low-born king. But to say that there's no reason for Guts' strength isn't misinterpretation but plain ignorance of the source material. Guts is strong because 99% of his waking life consisted of the world beating him down physically and emotionally. He has no parents and abusive father figure. He's a child soldier. He's raped and develops an aversion to closeness with others. It's a school of hard knocks thing. Also by Black Swordsman, he's very deliberate in his style of fighting. When he's meeting with Gotoh in the Conviction Arc, we see his thought process when it comes to battle. That was 1998 and honestly would have been somewhat fresh in the memories of people who kept up with the manga in. I'm guessing this guy only skimmed it. Also holy shit, he takes power levels literally? He has Vegeta's exact mindset i.e. making the mistake of thinking that strength can be quantified as opposed from coming from the heart, from pure will. In other words, it's stubborn guy manga. The guy can't even categorize his own examples correctly. But seriously, taking power levels seriously is the dumbest way of approaching DBZ and runs antithetical to Toriyama's expressed philosophy when it comes to that world.
I love how they portray Guts. I don't want them to portray some random knight or swordsman who is just above the average fighter. I love how they choose to follow a character who would be an absolute LEGEND amongst everyone and is unstoppable. You could say for every fighter out there, theres always someone who can kill the next guy... well i'd say they portray Guts as the ultimate human where not many people will ever be able to kill him in his prime. Griffith is able to at the beginning, realistically due to his speed, but later Guts shows us that he wins vs Griffith and leaves the band of the hawks. Thus we are following the greatest swordsman in the Berserk universe. He also has the advantage of his left arm being a cannon/repeating crossbow which has also been proven to help him in some cases. Not only that, he is right handed, so for his left hand to be cut off and have a metal hand, it makes sense he is still able to handle his sword since his lead hand(right) is doing most of the work and his left hand just needs to be there to help grip the sword. They also show him getting thrown against walls, but its not like he gets up right away like they do in dragon ball z. He lays on the ground in the 3 book and needs Puck to heal his right arm so he is even able to continue.. they make him like a superhuman, but still show Guts has limits. Its perfect for an imaginary world like Berserk.
So basically this guy is trashing Berserk because it doesn't follow the recipe that other Shounen type manga follow. So now my question is what manga has that guy made, and are they as successful as Berserk? If not then what kind of authority does he have to speak on the matter calling Berserk an "idiot" manga?
Coming from someone whose company chanced upon 2 golden eggs (NGE and Gurren Lagann) and then just made a bunch of softcore porn.
Imagine writing such a dumb comment after having seen 3 series of Gainax max. They literally didn't make a single bad product until the last decade (well, they're basically dead after Medaka)
Having read up to first 15 volumes; This makes alot of sense in terms of how Berserk goes about it's business of strength and battles. One could even say that the presence of fate/destiny in the story gives Guts infinite "plot armour"( not saying this in a a negative fashion, but an observation). This episode aired around 98', so it's also interesting to see perspective on the various trends, types of stories, that cycles in, and out, of popularity in the manga industry.
Berserk is wonderful, but not so separate from the ever continuing tapestry of manga history that it is immune sharing traits of the great mangas that came before it. Also seeing Dragon Ball and Berserk related to one another in the same conversation is really cool because both manga are wonderful and deserve to be celebrated.
As someone in the comments section pointed out, simply categorizing manga as two different types without actually taking the time to look actually analyze each one is foolish. Every manga has its cliches that come from other stories. This doesn't mean that these certain cliches represent the work as a whole.
Just because there are scenes in berserk where Guts gets back up to fight again that doesn't mean it's an exact copy of a shounen manga like Fairy Tale or Naruto or One Piece. Guts certainly does deal with internal struggles, but he doesn't win his battles JUST because he overcomes these problems within himself. He wasn't born with a nine tailed beast inside him, nor was he the prophesied chosen one of any sort. He spent the almost total part of his life fighting. He overcame death many times through sheer tenacity and drew from experiences from fighting for his life to survive. He doesn't go super saiyan. He doesn't just get a power boost from nothing. He already built up that power from before. He worked for it. And even as he wins these battles, he still struggles with his own fate. Just because his story involves fighting and never giving up, that doesn't mean it's an exact replica of other manga.
This man in the video saying that sports manga is different because the characters work hard to become better doesn't know what he's talking about. Guts clearly works hard to get what he needs, and what he needs is to survive. His entire story is about struggle, but this guy disregarded that completely. It's probably due to the fact that Guts gets upgrades later on, something that reminded him of a Saiyan going super saiyan. But the thing is, Guts getting the berserker armor wasn't a get out of jail free card. It brought on a slew of other problems for him, and his new comrades.
What I'm trying to say is that this man saw a couple of familiar tropes within Berserk that he's seen in other manga, and categorized it in a broad way that ignores the themes of the story.
All shounen protagonists struggle to win. But few ever really earn their victory the way Guts does. Some do, I'm not saying all shounen protagonists win due to bullshit, but the man in the video is implying that Guts survives due to this tired cliche. It's not true, and it's a very unfair assessment, both to Berserk, and all other manga that he just unfairly categorized by trying to connect point A to point B even though it's really not that simple
Since I just recently found this video again, I wanna say one more thing:
This guy has an obvious bias for sports manga and it's causing his whole argument to sound uninformed and ignorant.
He acts like sports manga is the only kind of manga that can have characters grow from experience. Probably because that's the kind of manga he enjoys reading.
Granted, that's not necessarily a bad thing since sports manga isn't bad, but since he's making an argument between two sides as though one is "smart" and the other is "dumb," he needs to be called out on his bullshit bias.
I completely agree. To me he downgraded Berserk to a very low level and butchered it with his comparison . Not many mangas, animes have character development let alone good character development. Berserk is the only manga that gives me the feeling of being on a journey and actually see changes with real consequences.
Rengufelen yea your nuts
I agree, and he even ignored his battle with the Bakiraka and Wyald which is one of the main reasons why he survived at the Eclipse.
Man just wrote an essay on 24 year old comment
What great comments we have here
LOL what the fuck did I just watch. So Berserk is a ''stupid'' manga because the protagonist doesn't have a reason for being strong, but Dragonball is a ''clever'' manga because power levels are a good enough reason? Also, he tries to make Berserk's fight look stupid by applying power levels to them. what the fuck.
Baka type manga in this discussion is referring to 'illogical' rather than 'stupid'.
Dragon ball was just one example of a type of manga where a certain thread of logic is kept throughout the whole work. The work itself wasn't called clever, but was a 'clever guy' type manga.
The power levels ARE a good enough reason to be strong within the Dragon ball world, as you said. Although that idea in itself isn't clever, what's important for this specific conversation is that the logic of power within the universe doesn't contradict itself.
Berserk was called the illogical type of manga because Guts didn't have a concrete reason for being able to win against a much stronger opponent. Reading over the chapter again, the monster repeatedly says most people die/are unable to continue to fight by the first strike. Guts is only different from other people in the manga in that he continues to fight even when struck down.
This wouldn't be enough of a reason to be stronger than an opponent leagues stronger than him in the other type of manga, labeled 'Clever guy' manga. A strong example would manga by Togashi Yoshihiro, who was referred to in the video.
Take the end of the Hunter x Hunter Hunter exam arc for example. In the fight between Gon and Hanzo, Gon was heavily out-matched and the only strength he had over Hanzo was his mental strength and persistence. Hanzo was much stronger and physically beat Gon but conceded because he saw Gon's persistent spirit. Hunter x Hunter needed another reason for Gon to win other than that he's the main character.
In Berserk obviously the monster doesn't show any pity for Guts and actively trying to kill him. Guts still beats the monster because he keeps on fighting. This in Hunter x Hunter would be like Gon beating Hanzo in the previous fight. In the Hunter x Hunter universe, Gon isn't allowed to beat Hanzo because logically he wouldn't physically be able to beat Hanzo in a fight. Guts however defies the logic in Berserk bringing out an awesome victory against all odds.
This shows that the fundamental logic in the two worlds are different. One keeps a strong line of logic, and the other defies that logic constantly.
This doesn't mean that Berserk is any less of a work than Hunter x Hunter or Dragon ball, but that they are DIFFERENT. They are fundamentally different and that was what was explained in this video using numbers to more easily communicate his logic.
I'm sorry if it was confusing. I would recommend watching the video one more time.
I can't believe you actually agree with the guy in the video and you say that fights in Berserk are less logical that Dragonball. The guy in the video was doing the most dumb thing possible, applying powerlevels to Berserk and saying : ''see? no way someone weaker can win''. He didn't take into consideration strategy or willpower. Guts wins because he uses his brain while fighting, he has unstoppable willpower so he doesn't let pain and fear slow him down, he even jumps into fire or get himself impaled just to gain and advantage, or sometimes fakes being unconscious just to surprise the demon with his hand-cannon. There is much more depth to this kind of fights than Dragonball, were ''if you have a lower power level you can't win''. And Dragonball actually gets a lot more illogical, like in Frieza Saga, where Zenkai Power boost went for just a 33% ( Vegeta going from 18.000 to 24.000) to a x33 times power boost ( Goku going from 90.000 to 3 millions). As Teamfourstar said, ''power levels are bullshit''. And it gets even more illogical in Dragonball Super. I'm not saying fights in Berserk are completely realistical, but they tend to follow established rules ( like Guts having greater phisical strenght and endurance than an average human being, this was established since Golden Age). And at least there are no convenient power-ups at the right moment.
The argument given here is not that one is more or less clever, but that the two types are fundamentally DIFFERENT.
Dragon ball has its own problems with its system and I wouldn't defend that, but it follows that same logic throughout. And it's NOT the prime example of logical manga. It was only referenced in order to tie in the power levels, to create a frame of reference, so the two manga can be COMPARED. Better examples would be Sports manga by Kajiwara Ikki or Shounen manga by Togashi Yoshihiro, like what were mentioned in the video.
Berserk is a great manga. I read it too!
I just want you to understand that Berserk thrives on Guts overcoming seemingly incredible odds. Obviously what Guts does is justified within Guts' world, but it wouldn't in another world. Guts is knocked down a few times by Nosferatu Zodd before Griffith and others come to his rescue in the Golden Age. In comparison, all the other characters have been mauled in 1 shot. Guts may have blocked all of the attacks, but he is knocked into a stone pillar that cracks at the impact. Guts is then able to dodge Zodd's next attack when Griffith comes to his aid. It shouldn't make sense that Guts is still able to fight at full strength. Guts seems to get STRONGER when he is injured, not weaker. This has been repeated many times.
You said "Guts [has] greater phisical strenght and endurance than an average human being". That's not enough to say that attacks that would have ripped apart a normal person in two wouldn't even leave lasting wounds on Guts.
It's not 'People die when they are killed' but 'Guts gets stronger when he is almost killed'. There is a fundamental difference in the two types of battle manga. AND IT'S NOT A BAD THING.
In this discussion, after this interesting comparison, this guy Mr. Okada then goes on to praise Berserk by saying that this type of logic-defying power can really engage you into the story.
The two styles of manga are different.
I think the wording of his argument using 'baka' may have been misleading.
I want you to understand that I'm not some enraged Berserk fan, so you don't need to worry about that. And I understood the use of ''baka'' as ''illogical''. I'm just arguing that Berserk isn't really THAT illogical to me. I mean, it's kind of illogical at some points ( like Guts falling hundreds of feets and suriviving, no man, no matter how strong, should come out of that in one piece). But it almost always follow his own rules. Guts body has almost as much endurance as the monsters he fights, that of course is unrealistical but it's a fact within the story, a rule set for every fight. And finding more strenght than before when you are injured is not so weird as you might think: it's something your body also does in the real world. Adrenalin and ortosympatic system go over the top to ensure surviving: there's been cases of mothers able to lift a car to save their children ( and this are not just legends, or at least they shouldn't be, since I read it on medicine books). To me, the point the guy is making in the video should not appeal to Berserk: he said that Guts is winning through sheer willpower alone, which is not true. Guts uses strategy. Take the fight against Wyald and Rosine as an example. Guts often uses deception, or he's willing to sustain a minor injury to inflict a much deeper one. He let his arm be impaled to be able to blow Rosine chest away with his cannon, for example: His opponents, on the other hand, underestimate him and get injured much more than him.
I think I get what you're saying a little more now.
This specific argument assumes that Guts is human. Therefore it's illogical that he could even have that much endurance to begin with. As for your example, what Guts is doing is like lifting the car after having his arms broken. Those rules that you are talking about are very different from other manga, so Mr. Okada also categorizes it differently.
Of course it makes sense in that world because that's how that world works. As a reader it's believable that Guts can endure, but compared to some other manga it would be illogical.
I also agree that Guts uses strategy and tricks in his fights. If you look at Hunter x Hunter again, you can also see moments where Gon or other characters survive seemingly impossible events. Great works of manga tend to be multi-dimensional and can be difficult to categorize. Mr. Okada's opinion is that at the core of Berserk is the illogical concept that Guts is inherently stronger than the rest of mankind and so he categorizes it that way here.
Thank you for commenting. I felt the need to reply to you because you used strong language in your original comment. I think we understand each other's opinion a little better now.
Guts trains a ton theres a huge progression in his strength. In dbz and yuyu there are examples of characters overcoming from internal reasons too.
but neither dbz or yuyu portrays these as the kind of inner struggle berserk emphatizes so much, other way of saying it is that in dbz and yuyu the characters seem fit to overcome their struggles and the drama comes from the confrontation, while in berserk this confrontation seems to work in tandem with inner struggles of the characters which, in turn, fuel their will.
@@mnemot lol dude wtf is wrong with you I wrote this 4 years ago. I dont even know what this is.
Guts epitomizes the epic hero. The epic hero can be stronger, faster, or smarter than the average man without a need for justification. It's the conflicts and the story telling that truly matters more than what the epic hero is capable of doing. After all, he's supposed to be someone for readers to fawn on.
I will also add in accordance to the backlash towards Okada that Miura isn't above criticism. He's not a god. A brilliant and creative genius, but not someone immune to imperfection.
the problem is that guts trains alot. always has.
@@zezuntxiduntxi That's not relevant to the point he was making. None of his training actually is needed to overcome a foe in the narrative. He doesn't train to overcome Boscogn, for example.
Everyone abuse this fat man, but Miura is a big fan of his reviews and anime.
And the subject of his remark is the prosperity of Baka comics. (As of 1999)
The meaning of "Baka" is light in this context.
Simply categorizing manga as two different types is only an example to make the subject easier to understand.
This TV program is not "criticized." It is funny to talk about anime and manga. .
Anyway, the context has changed. Not serious.
Agreed. He didn't say anything offensive at all towards Berserk. What he said makes alot of sense. Folks are just in their feelings because they love Berserk so, but "struggle" to look at the manga objectively as a manga in the times, trends, the manga was released in.
I'm sure 99% of the people in this comment section believe Okada is just some random fat man they interviewed, not realizing he's one of the most influential persons in the anime industry lol
Late Night Manga Discussion Show? I'd watch the hell out of that!
rip kentaro miura
First off, HOW DARE YOU!!!
Second, YOU HERETIC!!!
when he said dragon ball was more logical than BERSERK I wanted to slap him
@@bluepoint9474 hol up how the hell an anime wasting 3 episode of screaming is more logical than an anime who literaly don't give a shit about chit chat
@@jack_hunt1103 Tell me you've never read Dragon Ball without telling me (also tell me you have 0 text comprehension without telling me, since he was talking about the power-system)
You see, this person's point of view is similar with a 15 year old boy who thinks that Berserk is all about slaying monsters and demons....And one more thing, comparing Berserk with Dragonball, Naruto or other shounen anime is a total hybris...
it's obvious that people's strength, and guts strength in particular, vary depending on the situation. guts didn't even beat zodd if he's talking about that time, he's only struggling at full power, kinda. the same when Goku is struggling against frieza that he has no hope to beat, and then he goes super saiyan out of the blue, he's still goku but his rage or will to win has taken him to another level. same for guts except that it's more subtle since he can't win either way, and he doesn't change appearance.
guts power level varies then and he gets super human after the eclipse, but still varying from, say, 500 to 1500 depending on fatigue, hurt, will to win (increasing before monsters, less before holy chain thing), etc
and zodd is now obviously more than 1000
so imo it's totally coherent on that matter, even if not that realistic (fighting against monsters and all)
i also agree that miura isn't above criticism, there's a lot to say
Why in Japan When Someone is speaking, the other got to said: Ohh, Umm, Ahh, after EVERY sentence?.
Why do we Americans say uh huh after everything
Here in America while someone else is talking a lot of the time others are saying; right, yeah, uh huh, yeah, or something.
@@DarkSoulx7 yes but not after every single sentence and its not so loud and annoying
ur clearly putting too much attention into how they speak vs how everyone else does, probably because its another language than what ur used to, cause literally everyone does that lmao
It's called cultural differences, try to respect other people's culture. Why do Americans curse all the time? Why are Americans so loud and obnoxious?
It's a two way street you know. If you find other cultures annoying, the same can be said about yours.
I'm pretty sure Miura wouldn't give 2 shits about this guy. Adding bullshit Power levels in A manga such as Berserk? Are you fucking kidding me, Toshio? Is That how a Company Representative View other manga artists as such? Its like a 15 year-old trying to explain to his grandmother how google works like he's some engineer or whatever. So if it's a seinen, It's for delinquents? Some Critic...
I think Miura would have gave some shit about an influential figure like the founder of Gainax actually. Not saying he's right here, don't get me wrong. He is literally the "Otaking", he will encompass all the good and all the bad of Otaku culture in a way
Guys anyone with a brain doesn't agree with Otaking here, but please before talking randomly search up who he is. He's not a "random nobody". It's embarassing to see "random youtube commenter" saying the literal founder of Gainax doesn't know anything about his industry, no matter how wrong he may be
How is he incorrect?
Guys he's the Otaku King, obviously he'll have both incredible insight on the manga/anime industry and at the same time he will share all the most dumb fixations of the average Otaku like battle-boards
I really wish this entire interview was uploaded/translated because I have a feeling Otaking is really being taken out of context by berserk fans. As a critic its his job to look at patterns and formulas used by manga artists over the years whether its to gain popularity or keep a stable readership and Kentaro Miura was no exception. There is no question Berserk has more depth than your average shounen manga and the story had many layers but Otaking is simply commentating on the battle aspect of the series. Anyone familiar with Toshio Okada knows he goes in great depths in discussing different works and he could easily do an entire lecture on Berserk alone so people saying he doesn't know what he is talking about is unfamiliar with the man.
My apologies to the uploader, I just noticed the entire episode was translated last year. Many thanks for taking the time to translate the entire episode, hopefully it will clear up this clip a bit more.
Doesn't seem to be the case any longer.
Having only two types to categorize battle mangas is kinda idiotic...
Nothing will be wong....
This is so wrong
I've watched many fight animes, and as someone said once: "it's when you start giving strength numbers, that everything starts falling apart"
such as DBZ, one piece
you want to create power levels, with unthinkable strength to reach, always something higher
like in dbz, naruto, bleach
But berserk is something else,
just the golden age, the flashback with the hawks, shows how deep this is
I care about the story and the character development, not the fight or the strength actually
岡田さんのこと海外の方も知ってるんだ。凄い人だけど日本のオタクだけが知ってる方かと思ってた。
Oh, so in Japan they pronounce it "Beruzeruku" I thought it was "Bazaku"
He's got Berserk all wrong. Guts isn't one of those protagonists who can use internal drives as a source of power to shrug off damage. At least early on, he's definitely reckless, but recklessness is not the same as stubbornness. The latter implies throwing one's self at an obstacle and refusing to submit no matter the odds. Recklessness however is throwing one's self at an obstacle when the odds are heavily stacked in the other direction. A character can be both, but one doesn't necessarily imply the other. Guts puts himself in mortal danger for an opportunity to get the kill because he knows that this is the only way he'll win. The first thing we see him do is let an apostle fuck him so he can jam his arm cannon down her throat. That's reckless but not irrational.
Guts' stubbornness is long-term: he'll win big fights by outsmarting his opponents and taking advantage of their arrogance or whatever but then go on to the next big fight only not to protect people or even get revenge but to literally defeat his destiny. That's where we see him being foolish. I remember Flora telling Guts that his quest is impossible, but I'm sure multiple others told him earlier as well. Also it's just a central theme to the series in general with Griffith trying to do the same thing and become a low-born king.
But to say that there's no reason for Guts' strength isn't misinterpretation but plain ignorance of the source material. Guts is strong because 99% of his waking life consisted of the world beating him down physically and emotionally. He has no parents and abusive father figure. He's a child soldier. He's raped and develops an aversion to closeness with others. It's a school of hard knocks thing. Also by Black Swordsman, he's very deliberate in his style of fighting. When he's meeting with Gotoh in the Conviction Arc, we see his thought process when it comes to battle. That was 1998 and honestly would have been somewhat fresh in the memories of people who kept up with the manga in. I'm guessing this guy only skimmed it.
Also holy shit, he takes power levels literally? He has Vegeta's exact mindset i.e. making the mistake of thinking that strength can be quantified as opposed from coming from the heart, from pure will. In other words, it's stubborn guy manga. The guy can't even categorize his own examples correctly. But seriously, taking power levels seriously is the dumbest way of approaching DBZ and runs antithetical to Toriyama's expressed philosophy when it comes to that world.
I love how they portray Guts. I don't want them to portray some random knight or swordsman who is just above the average fighter. I love how they choose to follow a character who would be an absolute LEGEND amongst everyone and is unstoppable. You could say for every fighter out there, theres always someone who can kill the next guy... well i'd say they portray Guts as the ultimate human where not many people will ever be able to kill him in his prime. Griffith is able to at the beginning, realistically due to his speed, but later Guts shows us that he wins vs Griffith and leaves the band of the hawks. Thus we are following the greatest swordsman in the Berserk universe. He also has the advantage of his left arm being a cannon/repeating crossbow which has also been proven to help him in some cases. Not only that, he is right handed, so for his left hand to be cut off and have a metal hand, it makes sense he is still able to handle his sword since his lead hand(right) is doing most of the work and his left hand just needs to be there to help grip the sword. They also show him getting thrown against walls, but its not like he gets up right away like they do in dragon ball z. He lays on the ground in the 3 book and needs Puck to heal his right arm so he is even able to continue.. they make him like a superhuman, but still show Guts has limits. Its perfect for an imaginary world like Berserk.
HE CLEARLY DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT
He's right
Wrong wrong wrong. You are the Baka thate never understand Berserk
Is this mr. Miura? Naah i don't think so
I don't think this guy read the Golden Arch.
Did this guy even read berserk?
So basically this guy is trashing Berserk because it doesn't follow the recipe that other Shounen type manga follow.
So now my question is what manga has that guy made, and are they as successful as Berserk? If not then what kind of authority does he have to speak on the matter calling Berserk an "idiot" manga?
In this context baka does not mean idiot.Title says so.Baka means many things in Japanese.
@@samogonbrother machigae te sumimasen .
He only founded one of the biggest anime company in history after Toei, not a big deal lol, who knows Evangelion anyway?
This didn’t age well
savage