Can Luka Doncic Still Be The GOAT?
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
- Does Luka Doncic have enough gas in the tank to fight his way in to the GOAT conversation? Also, is there a rivalry destined between him and Victor Wembanyama?
#basketball #nba #commentary
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Luka becoming elite so quickly has caused people to take him for granted. It's gotten to the point where him dropping 50 barely gets people excited. Even dropping 73 led to more criticism than praise
Because he doesn't win...
@@reimixohe has a 65% win in his career
@@vkvsh_2k206 besides 2022, never got to 50w, missed the playoffs 2x, 43w in 2020 7th seed, 42w in 21 5th seed tied for 7th seed, this year just got out of the play in, is 0.5 games ahead of the 7th seed... Got out of the first round 1x.... If you call that winning..... He has made a Trash team, mid... Congrats.......
the problem luka has is that he is getting ecliped by jokic who is in his prime and luka is still ascending and nba media are overall racist/hating players from overseas.
@@reimixo Bro u can't hold players and teams today to the same standard as past teams and players. It's impossible to single handedly carry a team to the finals now. The skill is too high around the league and teams are too good. If you don't have the best team you aren't winning a title
One factor that is important to mention is the gap against competitors. Luka will not have such a gap because the league is so talented, many guys will be getting crazy stats night in and night out. It will require some masive playoff dominance for Luka to get there.
Luka is already a better all around player than many in the convo
Someone already compared the match up numbers between sga jokic ant and luka and this season luka has very clearly outplayed all of those guys in those respective games ie. Mavs v twolves, mavs v nuggest luka is special bro
i mean Lukas not even in the convo witj anyone in his age he has been in the convo with the giannis, embiid and jokic’s who are all 4 years older than him
even sga, tatum and booker r older than him
Problem is that Luka is not only competing with those guys to be in the goat convo, but also with their teams to get the accomplishments (the rings). Luka may be better than SGA, Jokic, Ant, Giannis, Embiid, Tatum or Booker, but his team will have to beat Denver, OKC, Minessota, Boston, Phoenix, regularly (and let's not forget the upcoming teams like Houston, or the tricky ones like Menphis or Sacramento). Beating them ALL to become the goat does not sound like an easy task.. And he'll have to do it multiple times, at least 4 to be even considered, and most certainly around 6 to have a realistic shot. That means one every 2 to 3 year in the next 15 years, with Victor breathing down his neck and who knows what 5 or 10 years from now???
If he gets 5 it will be very impressive but he could easely get only 2 or 3 rings if he don't get super team help (somebody better than Kyrie)... And getting real super team help will weaken his case in part...
@@showdaKOsI agree and would go even a step further: there is a very real chance that he will only win 1 ring or zero with the Mavs (or leave) and will be considered something like Dirk: a great player (top 5 at his position), top 30 All-Time, good stats etc . As you said the league is full of talent. They will probably cancel eachother out, unless they go superteam.
Of course there is difference between championship (I see people claiming Dirk's one is far more impressive than Lebron's two with Miami...), but even if they are of that quality he would need 3 to have a chance (and of course a few MVPs, )
He can still be top 10 all time. Just needs to win rings
MJ won his first ring at 27 Luka just turned 25. Does Luka still have time? He is already 4 time all NBA first team player, haters want you to think that he is running out of time but the whole narrative will change when Luka wins his first ring and FMVP in june this year
Forget top 10. Luka is going to be the 🐐
MJ never put up the stats that luka is putting up. Plus, MJ played in a water down league while Luka is playing in the greatest era of nba basketball in history
Bro, mj had 37 points in an era with less pace@@rektz2457
@@SK99900This year? I’m a fan of the Mavs and Luka but let’s be real lol
And MVPs
Winning 6 championships is just harder nowadays just like 11 was easier before hand. That itself makes it so difficult to become the goat nowadays. The last 5 years have all been different champions which just shows how many good teams there are, and without really putting together a super super team it’s hard to believe a player can win more than 3 in the next like 10 years.
I think it’s fair to say kds injury with the warriors was the start of the next era of the nba where even Lebron and curry’s championships felt very different from their earlier ones
Hell winning 4 like Bron and Curry is impossible. Bron could’ve maybe won 6 if he was luckier with teammate injuries and shit like the KD warriors, but his last ring and Curry’s last ring were very much circumstance and lucky timing. The fact that these 2 generational players played in a slightly less competitive era than today and barely won 4 makes it seem to me like Jordan and Lebron are gonna be unattainable unless some monster player with incredible defense and flawless offense somehow wins multiple championships. Basically if Wemby improves by how much Giannis improved, he’s gonna average like 35-15-6 on 5 blocks and 2 steals a game in his prime and he might be so unstoppable that he’ll become the goat. But Luka’s not doing that because the reason he’s so good is his incredible IQ and not his physical abilities like Bron and Jordan’s supreme athleticism or Bron and Wemby’s size combined with their skillsets. He’s gonna surpass Magic, but that’s it imo he’ll peak at no. 4 or 5 all time
@@d3va383 i mean, that could go for everyone, the 08 celtics coulda and WOULD win at least 3 or 4 if it wanst for injuries, literally, but yeah, i agree, winning more then 1 chip on this era is reallt hard and the ones that can manage to win double or heck, REPEAT? damn, that should be praised
Think it has more to do with always changing rosters, if you don’t win a chip a team guts half the roster, if you win a chip the team probably looses 2-3 good role players the next season.
It is funny that you say this in April 2024 when we are in the middle of a 3peat.
Jokic is easily on track to be a top 10 player ever. Giannis as well. Both are still very young. Luka and Wemby will be in that conversation as well. Jokic is on a “goat” track too, and it’s really not talked about enough.
I agree with everything except the last part. Iv seen a ton of jokic praise and dialogue online, unless your talking specifically about mainstream NBA media?
i would say that we don't talk enough about jokic having one of the highest peaks ever, but where i think you're wrong is pretty much summed up in your "both are still very young" statement which is just not true, they are 28 and 29 respectively so i think it's not at all an easy path for either of them to even be in the top 10 all time when you got guys like hakeem and wilt outside of it..
i think jokic has a good chance to make it, not so sure about giannis..
and for the jokic goat case i mean it would take what, him playing like this for at least five more years, win at least three or four more rings.. it's not impossible but highly unlikely
@@weplaydk2343 yeah I don’t mean the hardcore hoop fans like us, I mean the general population and definitely main stream media
@@oliviercolletaz5841 yeah but 28 is still young considering that’s when lebron won his first ring, let’s say Jokic wins 2 more MVPS and 2-3 more chips. He’s DEFINITELY in the conversation considering he’s pretty much the most efficient player ever. I do agree that Jokic has a much better chance than Giannis, however, let’s say Giannis goes on a tear the next few years, wins a few while still putting up these numbers, he would definitely ascend to that top 10 threshold. The way I see it, Jokic and Giannis have 7 years to do what they need to do, we will be able to revisit this in about 2-3 years and see how realistic it really is. All I’m saying is they definitely have a chance.
@@FreshBOI1579 From my POV Jokic can be the GOAT or at least in the convo. For me he gets this years MVP and maybe another future one, he needs at least 2 more rings/ Finals MVPs and climbing some more all time lists and then he's right there. Jokic is probably the best offensive system the game has ever seen he is also at a point in the league where he is unquestionably the best player in the world (which I think the GOAT needs to be for at least 5-10 years. He's run as the best player is about 3 years strong now and I don't see it ending anytime soon). He is also an above average defender now so he really doesn't have any weakness which is another thing the GOAT basically needs at this point.
I think that jokic and the nuggets will also be a part of this, it'll be a three-way rivalry
Nah. Nugs are getting bounced this year in an early round
Maybe. I had him projected top 5 all-time after his 2020 season. He's still on that path.
Luka will surpass lebalco in 2026 when Mavs 3peat Luka is winning his first ring and FMVP this year and 10 years from now he will be the GOAT and surpass MJ
Only top 5? Luka is going to be the 🐐 and its not even going to be close.
Luka is dominating in the greatest era. When Luka wins a couple of championships, then its going to be official that Luka is the 🐐
@@rektz2457OK, oldhead, relax.
@@GibranCamus-kr2dcold head? Sounds like hes all in on luka
@@rektz2457the standard is at least 4 rings
I love how rusty actually brings context to situations, so many guys on youtube didnt actually watch a lot of the teams they talk about and it shows
Genuinely, the more we go over what Luka has to do to be the GOAT, the better and better Jokic seems all time at this point in his career
Luka's my #1 Player and he's the reason why I came back to watched the NBA,but I just have to say "no rookie gonna beat D.Rose's rookie season"
Luka is the reason why I started becoming a hardcore nba fan and even I can say there is zero chance that he will become the GOAT. I think however that he can reach Curry’s level of greatness ie top 10. The Bron MJ convo is something that maybe only Wemby will be able to reach out of todays players.
Wemby over Luka is an ass take
@@probablyyourdad Well Luka is objectively just a better player than Wemby rn. However, Wemby has a ton of potential and is still very young so he has the potential to reach GOAT status if he stays healthy and gets lucky which was what he's trying to say I think.
Anthony Edwards
@@probablyyourdadLuka is my favourite player, but Wemby just has insane potential man. Wemby is arguably having the best rookie season of all time if we take his per 48 min statistics in consideration
@@probablyyourdadyou know defence is half the game right?
Does he still have time? Yes, because he just turned 25 on February 28th. Not to mention, it took Jordan seven years to win his first ring at age 27, and it took LeBron until year nine when he was 27 years old. Unfortunately, we live in a “first now” and “what have you done for me recently?” type of society.
Yeah but lebron was also winning rings at ages where you see major decline we gotta see
Jordan won his first title when he was 28 years old.
Becoming GOAT is so hard because at bare minimum you need to be as skilled and good as Luka PLUS a very good coach and stars next to you. If Jordan didn't get Pippen and Jackson as a coach, he wouldn't be the GOAT. If LeBron didn't leave the Horrendous Cavs org, he wouldn't be #1 or #2. Etc. Etc, it goes on.
That's why the GOAT debate is silly - GOAT debates only really work in individual sports (and even then they are fraught with issues). In a team sport, it's like debating if oranges or apples taste better.
People really don't understand the Jordan built Pippen in practice. Pippen did not come into the league an allstar. He was super raw and him battling Jordan in practice developed him into a perrenial Allstar. Jordan made his own luck.
Except Jordan would have still been GOATed. If Luka is going to make an actual strong GOAT run he will have to WILL the Mavs to a ring this season. Jordan could pull that kind of thing off.
i completely agree. in the goat debate, majority of people forget the team aspect of basketball. as an individual player, jordan was obviously insanely good. even if lebron doesn't scale to jordan, so many people overlook the fact that he's basically a second coach - he's literally done defensive schemes and verbally helps his teammates fix mistakes and adjust. jordan is an iso god, but lebron is pure basketball: two completely different players
1:58 "Luka has done this to many teams this yearWHAT?!!" man it makes me chuckle everytime
Now talking about the video, I think im starting to grow bored of the GOAT or potential future GOAT conversations. Like I'm just gonna care about enjoying the greatness of a player at the moment and that's it. Not saying your video was boring Jacob, I love the content you make and I really respect your opinions on basketball and the NBA lol
Bro just glossed over bird and magic being top 10 going back and forth
Yeah or for that matter Kobe and Duncan going back and forth
Luka is the best player in the world in my opinion right now but the goat debate is funny it’s hard to mix eras but it’s fun to argue about it.
Hell no Jokic and Giannis. There's two sides of the ball also
@@Slyrock-1000 yh but someone's offense can be so good that it outweighs a 2 way player. And luka is to me at that level, we've seen giannis lose so many series because of his flaws on the offensive end even last year. And his defence outside of a couple years has never been as impactful in the playoffs as it was in the regular season. Last year butler torched his team and he did nothing about it so where was his impact on defence
@jonnstewart2023 we're talking about the greatest. His offensive isn't outweighing the 2 way play of Jordan Kobe Kareem who all were better offensively or at least as good and WAY better defensively
@@Slyrock-1000 don't change the subject the guy said the best itw not of all time and even if we're talking all time if kareem had a lot of blocks but if you know the context of the career then you'd know that he was a subpar defender at times cuz he was lazy ash he didn't like getting back in transition and the media and even other players like wilt used to rip him for it. And I'm sorry but no kareem is nowhere near luka offensively
@@jonnstewart2023he is not better than jokic, the advanced stats show this clearly. the impact on winning is on jokic side. offensive production between luka and jokic is not that far apart, but jokic is significantly better defender.
He’s a top 5 talent and skilled player of all time
You should make a video detailing how much better front offices are today. Would be funny imagining some of those old trades happening today.
I look at it from the perspective that LeBron, who a lot of people think deserves to be in the GOAT conversation, got his first MVP at 24 and his first championship at 27 and has 4 of each, MJ got his first MVP at 24 as well and his first championship at 28, winning 5 and 6 respectively. If Luka got his first MVP next season and won a chip within 2 then he would be on around the same pace as both of these guys to start, the issue is that Jordan won 5 MVPs in 11 years and Lebron won 4 in 5 years. And Jordan won 6 rings in 7 years and LeBron won 4 in 9. Both of these show a level of dominance during a time and sustained greatness that will be hard to match, Luka has the skill I believe in general, the issue is the competition. Even if we ignore Jordan who also has 6 finals MVPs and a DPOY and only focus on LeBron who will be MUCH easier to catch its still going to be an upwards hill.
Another way to look at it is Jokic, he is about to have 3 MVPs and is favored to win a second championship. This actually sets Jokic about on pace with BOTH LeBron and Jordan if he did win the ring this year. Not to mention Giannis who is a a little behind Jokic but still has the potential to go on a streak again and edge into the GOAT conversation. So Luka would have to win over the next 10 years about half of the championships and about half of the MVPs to be edging out LeBron in most categories and be trailing Jordan by not to much at the age of 35, which is around where both our great players in this comparison stopped adding accomplishments.
So the issue becomes that Luka has won nothing yet, he has not yet proven he can beat out our other top 2 current guys, not to mention Embiid who has been much more competitive then Luka in general with the MVPs. And to assume that Luke would get into that conversation would be to assume that Luka can consistently beat out all of these guys, of which he has never done yet. Not to mention by the time that they're getting aged out of competing for this we also have Wemby who is set to do crazy things. I love Luka and think he could easily make top 10, but the current player who is most likely to enter the GOAT debate is the only one currently on the same pace as the top 2 contenders in Jokic.
Even as a luka fan I agree
I think his lack of defense will keep him out of GOAT convos by the time he’s 30 unless he drastically improves on that end.
Could he go down as the best player who wasn’t that good on defense?
Which is funny because Magic Johnson was not a good defender and is considered a top 4/5 player all time.
Stop it. Defense is overrated af anyway, and MJ was always an overrated defender
Luka is by far the better offensive player
@aarondeatherage7678 fr. And magic was an average scorer
@@rektz2457 so you don’t actually know anything about basketball, cool.
400 games in, he has more points, rebounds, and assists than Bron did at the same point.
Luka legitimately has become the best player in the league without a look from anyone. How he hasn’t had a MVP nod yet is beyond me.
Luka, without injury or major falloff, will end a top 5 player all time. Not even including his European accolades. He’s gonna be a 32-36K scorer, 10k assists, 8-10k rebounds. Bron never put up 34/9/10 with 2 stocks. Now that he’s hit the finals I can’t see anyone else getting MVP this coming season, voters are gonna remember his existence. If he could just get a little faster and stronger, great lord I pray for the league. He’s already strong, but if he went Miami Bron mode and just got shredded he’d be unstoppable.
HES USING RELATIVE TRUE SHOOTING NOW ❤
What about Jokic tho if he keeps racking up the mvps and championships and triple doubles and the greatest passing big man and shooting big we’ve ever seen in nba history with 1 team his entire career how can we keep him out of the conversation? At least top 5 all time I agree tho that being said Luka and Wemby have a better shot at the goat but that’s only cause they both we’re top flight prospects Wemby obviously one of the most hyped of all time and Luka a widely considered top 5 prospect in his draft vs Jokic who went at 41 and wasn’t ever considered a first round pick which I totally understand but if we go just off there primes and accolades when it’s all said and done and honestly when you consider he’s kinda doing it by himself I mean Jamal Murray obviously is a really good 2 guard but nobody really considers him a top 15 player in the league and that’s been his best player he’s ever played with in his career and it’s not even close so again 25 years from now when all these guys are retired and if jokic Keeps up this pace and the nuggets keep winning championships (which there definitely the favorites this year over Boston when Muarry comes back from injury) I don’t see how will be able to keep him out of this conversation i 100 percent admit Wemby has the best shot and Luka is right behind him but Jokic is definitely not to far behind either of those guys and will be firmly in this conversation when it’s all said and done in my opinion
We will look back on this year down the road and wonder how dumb everyone was to not give him MVP, one of the great individual seasons we have EVER seen, can’t even use the winning argument against him anymore
The problem with Luka is he has yet to have 1 super significant individual award. All he has is all star selections, and 1st team all nba selections. He, has no Scoring Titles, Ring, MVPs, FMVPs, DPOYs, etc. He doesn't even have all nba defensive team selections.
He may get his first 2 very significant individual awards if he can maintain the scoring title and somehow get the regular season MVP. However, he needs to get some significant individual awards, and win some chips asap to start building his case.
hes abt to win his first scoring title😭
MJ set the GOAT bar too high. Even the most talented guys in the league today (except Lebron and Curry) will be lucky to be top 10. Giannis and Jokic are top 20 but Luka will need more achievements to be in top 10 conversations.
He’ll need at least 3 rings/3 FMVPs and 3 MVPs with a handful of scoring titles to enter that discussion
Luka been great from day one and pretty much a superstar since his 2nd season
Hot Take: Casuals tend to overrate superstar factor, but it is also underrated by overanalyzing people, I think that having equal 8-10 men rotation is key to 1-6 seed. Superstars (Luka like not Paul George or Jaylen Brown) are key factor in deep final run. In the last few years team with better stars overtook better teams (GSW and Celtics, Suns and Bucks etc.)
To reach the goat conversation first Luka has to reach his maximum NBA potential, specially as an NBA athlete and a group leader. He needs to commit to: 1. Have way better physical condition, the NBA is not Europe, he is just not sharp or fast enough. 2. Better mental attitude, sp towards refs. 3. Get better teammates and coach around, for which he has to raise his personal ambition, like Giannis pushing the Bucks owners. 4. A little bit of luck, only one team wins it all every year.
So, if Luka commits to winning the league every year in a Kobe-like mentality, then YES of course he is in time to be at least in the conversation, whether it may be with the Mavs or elsewhere. But for now he seems to be too shy about everything, not very hungry for winning or leadership.
Maybe with maturity, commitment and a better team around him he is able to dominate, but for that the new Mavs owners need to be generous almost like Golden State way, and the front office to not fail improving the roster constantly.
Luka has been a goat since before even entered the league. Dude is setting records every season putting up crazy stats every season . Luka is goat
Hell if he has a 6 year stretch where he goes 6-0 in the finals then for sure even like 5-1 or maybe 4-2 would put him at like top 5 easily top 10 all time so if we’re talking hypothetically then if he can do that then yea he just you know…has to do it lol
Hold on… I gotta call you out: the Mavs didn’t spend his first couple years dilly dallying… they made the KP move pretty early in his career and didn’t have the patience to see it through. They also put all their eggs in the bucket of a playing style (totally ball dominant) who’s highest point of success was a western conference finals (hardens rockets). Yes, the warriors were the first to win with a jump shooting mentality, but they also had the best shooting backcourt of all time, tons of player movement, and KD for two of those titles.
If anything, the way the Mavs have handled Luka should he a cautionary tale for the Spurs and Wemby. Not to not compete immediately, but perhaps approach it with a bit more planning and patience.
The one thing that I think Luka most needs in order to become the GOAT is improved defense. If you look at consensus top 10 players, the only 2 who aren't known to be good defenders are Magic and Curry, and even then, they both led the league in steals at one point. I just don't think it's possible for a player to be considered the GOAT if they weren't great on both ends of the floor.
Hes one of the best post defense as guards rn?
@@Text_Book I'm not saying he's a bad defender, I'm saying he would need to be a great defender to have a real GOAT case.
so is James Harden. Does not mean you are good at defense. Also, he is a guard, not a post defender. So his "good post defense" is not valuable because he only has opportunities to defend a post perimeter guard a few times a season@@Text_Book
Facts. Jordan won defensive player of the year! Its laughable to think Luka could ever do that. 0 chips and people are putting him in the goat conversation. Wow. Smh
@@RT-qz5ci People are putting him in the potential GOAT conversation, nobody is saying he is the GOAT now. Just like people are putting Wemby in the potential GOAT conversation. It's not because of what they have achieved so far, it's about what they could achieve throughout the rest of their career. Also, winning a DPOY is not necessarily a requirement for being the GOAT. MJ is the only top 10 all time player who won a DPOY, unless you think Hakeem is top 10.
With Luka and Wemby as the two goat candidates you're talking about here, what about Jokic? Do we not think he has the potential? He looks like he's about to clinch a fourth MVP this season, the nuggets are the reighing champs, they look like the most likely winner of the western conference this year, and that's all being done with a team of role players around him as much as some people want to say Murray is a star.
*3rd MVP
This is honestly my first time ever seeing anyone mention anything about luka being the goat. 😭
He's Luka's brother what do you expect
You new around here??
Nobody talks about Luka being the greatest especially with zero defense
@@Slyrock-1000Luka will be the GOAT in 10 years from now and he will surpass LeChoke in 2026 when Mavs 3peat. Luka is winning his first ring and FMVP in june this year
I haven’t seen anything in a couple years now, but it was 100% a conversation before. Dude basically averaged a 30pt triple double in his 2nd season, was 1st team all nba and proved he could step it up in crunch time and the playoffs
Reminder to sit back and watch as things unfold. A lot of people were talking MAD shit when LeBron lost the first Miami championship, saying he'll never be in the GOAT convo. LeBron always missing calls because his phone doesn't ring etc. Those people look insane in retrospect.
If he wins a few tittles these young seasons will retroactively become better
No.
Defense is half the game, you can't be a goat candidate without at least a strong showing in that area.
I can't think of anyone in my top ten who didn't have elite defense when it mattered. You can be ok at defense 90% of the time but you gotta have those extra gears when it matters.
as it seems, luka can
NO, because he's not winning 5 or 6, and he said he's not playing more than 20 years like LeLongevity.
So rings and stats are not on his side no matter how great individually he will become.
Bro could shake up the league and sign w the nuggets
I dont think it's necessary to win that many rings or play as long as lebron. given how competitive and talented is the nba right now luka needs 3 or 4 rings with absurd 5 year peak. when I say absurd is smth like avg. close to 40 point triple double playoff runs on 70 TS% for 5 year straight, winning 3/5 while hitting clutch shot after clutch shot.
but nobodies gonna value rings like that as much in the future thats the thing.
Like in the past we see Bill russseell won like 11, why do we not value them as much as ay jordans 6? cause jordan’s 6 are way harder, same with other players in the future vs past
but now its gotten to a point where winning more than 2 rings in an era seems pretty fucking impossible
u can def get away with say a 3-4 mvp , 3 ring , 3fmvp career nowadays and have it be weighed like how a 5 ring career in the 80s was i think
this is just my prediction tho
He should be mvp,but the voters feel bad for last year narative and gifting to Embiid. The MVP is 60% and 40% narative.
Reminds me more of kd. Great offensively but will never be on a defense team and I think his style will make it a bit harder to win. Top 20 all time lock though
lmaooo
Luka has good potential and a chance to be among the Top 10 greatest players. However, becoming the GOAT is a different scenario.
If finally has a team around him, guys that have had experience playing and can lead the way for the younger gen team. They'll only get better. Had they been there from the beginning people would be recognizing it more. And now that we've had the trade back in Feb., we get more vids like this.
Apsolutely. He is only 25 years of age, ehat are we talking about?? Of course he has very long time. If he wins championship this year than... He has very long time to win multiple more, to win multiple MVP awards and of course he needs to stay healthy for a long period of time which I think he will and simply if he continues to play like this for the next 10 years, his numbers would surpass Jordan's and Lebron's. He would have nearly as many points per game like Jordan, but with more assists, rebounds, free throw shooting and 3 point shooting than Lebron lool😂😂😂 so yeah. Luka definitely has a chance to become the GOAT. As well as Jokic.
They will look back and say this was the European era luka Giannis and jokic dominate, luka has the ceiling of goat because of how quickly he became this good rings and accolades will determine but it’s wild to have possibly 3 top 15 players all time all from Europe at once
Offensively he’s better than Jordan and lebron so unless someone has the opinion to hat defence is a big deal there’s absolutely no reason to say he can’t except those people who think that unless your initials are MJ and played for the bulls in the 90’s your automatically disqualified
We always talk about those players as individuals removed from any context, the league is wayyyy more talented now, and you need very skilled players at all positions to have a good team. 1 talent + mid isn't enough anymore. All the best team currently have 4 or 5 starters that were high lottery pick talents, and in the top 75 category. You can't win without being a luxury tax team. Talent is cumulative, redundancy is good. Building through the draft is the only way not to bleed assets, and team shamelssly tank without saying it. The competency of the front office is a wayyyy more important factor in championship now than people realize.
Luka was ready by year 2 and the Mavs did a horrible job scrambling to keep up. They probably should have tanked 1 or 2 years and Luka would be the "newcomer" ready to take over the league like SGA is now, instead of the really talented guy that can't win anything. Last year tank was a soft rebuild, 3 years too late.
Luka has played at an MVP level for a few years but the Mavs organization kind of failed Luka in that. When the narrative was in his favor I think that had the Mavs won a bit more games, he could have at least 1x MVP by now. But since the narrative shifted, it feels like unless the Mavs are TOP3 in the West, it will be harder for him to get his MVP trophy.
Rusty brings up a good point- not knocking the competition before but I feel like the talent and output in todays NBA is just ridiculous- like Luka’s putting up better regular season numbers than 75% of MVP winners and still not clinched the lead
crazy how everyone talking bout wemby like his team isn’t 20-60
Does Luka need a Phil-Jackson type coach to change how Luka plays a bit, in order to elevate him to being able to win chips and achieve greatness at the highest level?
Curry is arguably in top 10. Lebron is arguable 2nd best all-time.
There is a wide gulf between 2 and 3 tho. Like how much difference is there between Kareem/Russell/Magic and.. Hakeem / KG / KD? People can make legitimate debates on that.
Luka seems to fall in the top 16-30 crowd. I think I have KG 15th and I don't think I take Luka over KG (as it stands right now). Honestly, he is like around Dwyane Wade level of a player.
Look at Wade and Luka's advanced stats for first 6 years. They are nearly similar. The only huge difference is age
Luka should already win one MVP two seasons ago.
Luka still has a shot at Jokic, Curry, Giannis, Kobe, Dirk, Durant, Shaq range in his career. 1-2 MVPS and 1-2 Titles as the best player on a Champion team. Somewhere between 25th and 9th all time if he gets a final resume close to these other guys I've mentioned.
Agree with everything you said except for the point about 2 potential top tens in the league. Giannis or Jokic (or both) have a very good shot as well, so I think we have 3
If Luka had that athletic showmanship he would be even more highly regarded.
if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bicycle
Wenbanyama, Jordan, Jokic and Luka would be the GOAT ranking when all said and done
Nah he doesnt do the little things that the 3 GOAT Tier players do. Those being Kobe, Jordan, and Steph. Larry Bird is #4 but right outside the GOAT Tier. Jokic is the next GOAT candidate with Wemby being the next one after Jokic
Joker has more potential to be Goat than Luka right now.
He’s 3 years older than Luka
Jokic is a better conversation
100%
I agree , cant believe you would leave the mvp of the league 3 of the last 4 years if he wins it again this year. I love Luka but until he wins a ring it doesn't matter what else he does.
what about bird magic they were 2 of the best players anyone had ever seen at the time. at the end of they’re careers they were 2 and 3 behind kareem right before jordan was considered the goat.
Luka is joining pop and wemby soon. People just ain't figured it out yet.
Wemby’s longevity is a really, really big question mark. Players over 7’ 1” tend to not last. Hoping he can. Luka can play his style for another 15 years.
It's definitely possible, Kareem is pretty widely agreed upon to be 7'3-7'4 and he has the second best longevity ever. And wemby isn't nearly as top heavy as someone like bill Walton or yao ming. Not saying it can't be a problem but I'm not as worried about it as some people are.
Wemby is incredible flexible for his height tbh. You just gotta look at his stretching routine.
Meanwhile, when it comes to Luka, you gotta consider that the man has been playing hard and professionally ever since he was 16 years old. The man will have more wear and tear by 30 compared to other players at that age
This might be a weird thing to say but I know I can’t be the only one but I love watching this channel when I’m eating. When I eat I’m more times then not watching UA-cam and I always go to this channel as my go to channel when eating. Idk why that is but please tell me I’m not the only one
I see big potentional, he can be top 3. Very very good skill active smart player, best expiriance in europe, k
now in nba top 1 scorer. He can show up new breaking records like 38pts in season, triple double?....
I mean, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain were debated as GOATs in the 60s, in those days one of them certainly was and the debate is still not settled on which was greater. I guess there were probably people who thought that about Magic and Bird although not as many.
Russell/Wilt
Kareem/Bird/Magic
Kobe/Duncan/Bron
I think all these guys have goat cases and played at the same time against each other. Hell if you ask the guys from back then, I’d be adding Elgin and Oscar, and maybe West to that top list and Doctor J to the 2nd.
if we’re going to say luka and wemby will probably face off to be potential goats in the years to come, i don’t see how jokic doesn’t get mentioned. potentially 3 MVPs, already a ring with a very real chance to win another, and is still in his late 20s
06:15 Luka is literally averaging just 1 point less than what Jordan did lol
By 28 LeBron had 4mvps, 2fmvps, 4 finals... Jordan 3mvps, 2fmvps, 6 scoring titles, a dpoy.... Luka wont get there... And RN he needs to worry about giannis and jokic who at 28 2x mvps 1fmvp and giannis even has a dpoy... Is Luka this season and in the Next get to them atleast?... And I don't see him playing as long as bron... Luka RN is doing what harden was doing pretty much.... Without the good Record....... RN Tatum as a better chance than Luka.......
Wemby with his potential and if he plays like 15y, he can get like 5dpoy, and have a tim Duncan Career with 3-4 rings and fmvps, 2-3 mvps... Without the defense I don't see anyone makin a case.... You have MJ and LeBron, kareem top 3 in points and blocks with 6 rings and 6 mvps.... I mean.... Luka with 5mvps and 5fmvps I would really think about it tho because he did it in the NBA and outside....
I think these conversations about Luka are hilarious. The guy hasn't even reached his final form yet. We're only now starting to see what he can do with a half decent lineup around him.
Lebron doesn't really have an argument either. Jordan is just unatainably great by every metric other than total games played.
Shouldn’t exclude Jokic and Giannis from this convo when they’ve achieved a lot more and are the actual two guys on pace for goat status rn
i personally think that he could still be in goat conversation if he pulls a lebron/kd and signs to a upandcoming team with you talent and form a superteam but i feel like he'll stay in dallas till probably 31 or 32 amd the. Team up with someone
He was All NBA first team in year 2. People are pressuring him for unprecedented greatness when literally no GOAT candidate aside from Kareem won it as a first option until they were in their late 20s.
Jordan was in the league for 7 years before he won lebron was in the league for 8 years kobe was in the league 12 years before he won a FMVP Luka's time is only just truly starting
People have just gotten used to him putting up crazy numbers imo he’s still top 3 in the league and has been slept on for his lack of team success (at no fault of his own)
Consider adding (a young) Kareem to the comparison.
As much as I love wemby I can't imagine him being able to stay healthy for a long enough period to become the goat. I definitely think he'll be dominant for at least 6 years, but I don't think his prime will be as old as most other players are. He is already starting his career young and staying healthy or healthy enough for him to become the goat seems farfetched for a 7 foot 4 man who is constantly moving on both ends of the floor.
He’s got to win the title this year or next
Jokic has a better line to the GOAT than either of Luka or Wemby for now.
Nah he can’t be the GOAT. Impossible to be the GOAT without being elite on both sides of the ball.
MJ won his first ring at 27 Luka just turned 25. Wdym does Luka still have time? He is already 4 time all NBA first team player, haters want you to think that he is running out of time but the whole narrative will change when Luka wins his first ring and FMVP in june this year
He's gonna need some chips at this point
If he was American he would make headlines every day on espn as the goat
If luka has like a 10 year stretch where he puts up a 30 pt triple double that’s smth he has over lebron or Jordan
What about jokic? if he wins 4-6 titles he can get in that conversatio. He is like already top 25-20 all time
All you need is six good seasons on a super team to be the goat so of course he has a chance
I could for sure be wrong but I get the feeling Luka has an "Allen Iverson but make him better" career
Luka's career averages are 28.7, 8.7, and 8.3. That's way ahead of LeBron and only trails MJ on points average.
And Luka has upped his game so much this season. The MVP issue is so obviously political as he's leading scorer, 2nd in assists, and only beaten by Curry on 3 pointers. Honestly, what more does he have to do to get the vote?
great video rusty
I don't think a player who doesn't play both ends can ever be considered the GOAT, no matter how insanely productive he might be.
disregarding jokic in this conversation is crazy
If the mavs and lakers swap co stars both teams would benefit from the swap
If he doesn't gain sustained season to season success, no. Probably not at this juncture but there is still slim potential.
Here's why Jokic could be in the Goat conversation if he wins two more titles.
- Jokic is the best European player ever and if he wins more he will be the greatest international player ever. As of today only Hakeem has a better rusume.
- Jokic changed the game, only the second player other than Curry to do so (every center in the league from Jarret Allen to Anthony Davis are involved more in playmaking actions than prior to the Jokic era. Wilt Chamberlain was doing DHos in the late 60s. Until Jokic came along big men were not expected or required to have a decent playmaking. Since this is a copycat league now almost every center runs DHos.
- Jokic is the greatest statistical player ever and all advanced analytic studies point to him as the most impactful basketball player ever. PER, BOX PLUS MINUS, RAPTOR, LEBRON
- the way Jokic impacted the Denver Nuggets franchise is even greater than what LeBron did in Cleveland legacy wise. They both brought the first title and 2 mvps to a poverty franchise but Jokic did it without leaving and creating a superteam elsewhere.
- Jokic has a strong argument to be both the most efficient scorer overall ever and the best playmaker ever (playmaking isn't just passing but IQ, decision making, limiting mistakes, creating the best opportunity/advantage for teammates, vision, ability to improvise. Him and Magic are probably the two best at it even though Luka has an argument as well).
- Jokic changed how rosters are built. GM's thought that creating superteams was the best winning strategy. The Nuggets title brought back the idea of gradual, organic building of a franchise that was in place two decades ago.
- Although not a traditional centre and more a point forward, Jokic is the first center since Shaq to be named league MVP and the first center since Shaq ('02) to be the best player on a championship team.
- Jokic is one of 5 players since 1990 to win an MVP and bring the first championship ever to a franchise (Jordan in 1991, LeBron in '16, Duncan in '99, Dirk in '11 and Jokic in '23).
- Jokic is the center with most triple double ever and when it is all said and done he will be a top 3 leader all time.
- Jokic won a championship without an all NBA player unlike many players in the top 5 and 10.
- If Jokic wins three titles he will be one of only two players to ever build a dinasty in a small market team (which traditionally have less resources, capital and help from the referees). This is much harder to do than building a dinasty in Boston, LA, Chicago etc.
- Jokic had outplayed and beat in the playoffs most of the best players of his era. This is something that some goat candidates who won multiple titles haven't done as they played in stacked teams.
- Jokic outplayed and beat Demar Derozan, Lamarcus Aldridge, Rudy Gobert, Donovan Mitchell, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Dame Lillard, Anthony Edwards, Karl Anthony Towns, Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, LeBron James, Jimmy Butler, Bam Adebayo.
- Jokic's peak is the greatest combination of Team impact, floor raising, dominance, efficiency and talent in league history.
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Jokic is on track to bring the best player of the 2020s so he’s way farther than Luka being the goat but got me personally on Luka unless he wins more or plays great defense he’s night not even crack top 25
Difficult for him. He has to go up against Jokic and Giannis for years to come. Then you have Wemby. I don't see it happening. Jokic has a more likely path of being the GOAT.
For the comparison, Jordan won his 1st MVP and 1st playoffs serie at 25, reach his 1st conference finals at 26, his 2nd MVP and 1st title at 28.
Doncic already have a conference final and only need an MVP this year, the next one or 2026 to be Jordan equal at 27.