My brother had a 2002 Grand Prix GTP with the HUD and it was such an awesome car when he got it. I was so jealous. It was fast and made good power. Then he blew that off and bought a brand new 2003 Trans Am WS6 Ram Air and it was absolutely beautiful. LS1, Ram Air, WS6 suspension, with a 6 speed? It was gorgeous. He had that for 3 years, put 5k miles on it, and sold it to a guy in Sweden (shipping it from Florida) for $60k and bought a 2007 Corvette Z06 with the LS7 with a 6 speed. Talk about a come up. Anyway, I worked at a Buick dealership at the time and we had alot of supercharged Rivieras (back in 1998 and 99) and I LOVED those cars. I'd still love to have one and modify it. I have ALWAYS wanted a Riviera in good shape with a L67 and make over 400 whp with it. BTW, he's now VERY well-off due to good business decisions and investments, has a BEAUTIFUL house in Florida, has a fully loaded 2018 Camaro ZL1, 2009 Corvette ZR1, a 1974 Camaro Z28 restomod, a 2015 Silverado Black Widow special edition, and he just bought my sister a 2018 Jaguar SUV. Damn, I wish I had only been as money-wise.
Would love to see a sbc with marine vortec intake that uses regular injectors, a plate and Eaton m112 off the Ford 5.4 trucks. The intake and blower can be picked up used at reasonable price. Could probably utilize a thin air/water intercooler without adding much height, complexity, or weight. Bet you could make a reliable 450-500 rwhp out of a junkyard vortec long block with torque for days and great throttle response
Can't wait to see boost and charge temps with the water-meth. I'm thinking all the extra boost up top on these Roots blowers is due to the high heat aka low efficiency at those speeds, and if you manage the pressurized air temp then you'll flatten that boost curve right out, and pick up a Hell of a lot of power in the process
Great to see part 3 will have WMI and spray into the TB/inlet of the supercharger. All the naysayers say you can't spray water into the supercharger. I can't wait for you to prove them wrong.
@@SenorYuk I'm sure the coating is long gone due to the egr and pcv oil into the intake. Actually the wmi will clean the rotors and help seal them and make them more efficient.
@@mp5778 the oil contamination would help the rotors seal better. Clean rotors leak. In my experience it's pretty obvious when the coating starts failing. It comes off in big flakes.
@@SenorYuk I don't know about the coatings, but I know one some early aftermarket kits using Eaton blowers back in the 90's the manufacturers mentioned that spraying meth before the blower could corrode the gear drive and bearings because they were not isolated from the intake tract. Never tested it myself.
I think the rise in boost pressure is a result of the terrible cylinder heads and small camshaft. The supercharger is increasing flow in a linear rate compared to the engine which is rapidly loosing efficiency as the rpms go up. I would like to see well ported heads and intake with larger camshaft. See what you can do with pump gas and water injection.
That would be great in a 75 Chevy Monza! I had one with the 262 V8 and Saginaw 4 speed. Just the junkyard M90 3800 , that would be mid 12’s on E85 at 352 hp. With a turbo200 from a LeSabre. At that level a sandwich charge air cooler would be great, maybe you could get 365 on a cool night. I like it, after TurboMonza is done 365 is likely with a good CAC.
Good stuff. Did a lot of testing with watermeth on a ~500HP 1.8T VW back in the 2006-7 and it seemed to be a complete waste of time. We were using an intercooler though.
You don’t need a higher octane rating with the E85 so all the methanol can do to add power is cool the charge, which it will. So probably 3-5% improvement.
Head work, period. The stock ford 3.8L heads gain a ton of flow with a port job. Kills 2 birds with one stone (better airflow AND installing better MLS headgaskets) My Cammed N/A 3.8L picked up 40rwhp from just a port job, and that is with a mild 206/216 cam. Actually made the same RWHP as my stock 90 supercoupe, 185ish. I've played around a lot with 3.8L fords, Tossed a Vortech V1 on that 185rwhp N/A engine and brought it up to 299rwhp @ 11-12psi. Low 13's all day long in a 3900# Thunderbird/3000 stall 4r70w, only one high 12 on a cold day. Still alive 50K later on the stock 96' Crank/rods/pistons
Hey bud I was thinking after watching all your intake test if you ever put another 5.0 mustang engine with the stock injection try relocating the injectors on top of the intake manifold where each port tube starts on a angle which could be made fairly easily with a price of aluminum bar welded on a 45 degree and see if it acts like a fuel injection dual plane It should be interesting with the longer part of the runners and should get that cooling effect of a carbureted intake I’ll mail you the intake if you don’t have any that are junk I got one I’ll be more then happy to send but anyway keep up the good Thxs again for everything
@@Levibetz hey bud Thxs for this Man now I’m really curious how it would do on a stock 5.0 intake being those small tube runners are so long Im wondering if it would raise the hp a bit but really raise the torque up drastically
the old Saleen 5.0L intake had provisions for injectors in the plenum (it works to cool the charge), but it won't change the power curve offered by the stock H.O. intake (it is very restrictive)
Awesome sir. I've been wondering about the boost juice compared to regular -20 fluid. I turbo'd my 5.0 ranger using an hx 40. Be exciting to see if the wiper fluid is doing it jobs. Ive noticed when I pwm my extra injector that iat's go from 80* down to 35*.
@@richardholdener1727 oh ok thanx dude thought it was the old one really enjoy your videos bro I’ve been a mechanic for 30 yrs really cool stuff what you do man I’ll keep watching
I rather have the Super chiller modified Supercharger. That one is superior to anything I seen so far. Any supercharger can be done. Not only the factory ones.
Richard is the L67 combustion chamber more efficient than the LS stuff (LS3/LSA/LS9)? Just wondering because 21 deg timing seems really low for an 2-valve OHV setup on E85. The engine wants what it wants, but I was surprised by that number. (edit) - nevermind, just saw your charge temps.....
Is the IAT the reason for the low timing figures on these engines? Those heads look similar to an SBC head as far as the combustion chamber is concerned. I'd think 32-36° all in with 150-160°F coolant temp is about right for naturally aspirated. And mid to high 20's with boost. Assuming you can get the charge temp down to 100°F or less. Or does the 3800 like timing numbers closer to an LS?
Don't know if you saw my comment but I was wondering the same thing (LS motors on E85 with 10-15 psi of boost generally like 25-28 deg). But if you look at the charge temps he was hitting 190 F at the top. So that's why timing was low.
@@richardholdener1727 Sure, all day long. As long as the charge temps are low. Typically seeing 110-115 F at 15 psi after a 2-gear pull on an LSA with 2650 blower and good cooling. It'll run 25 deg at peak torque and 27 deg near redline at those temps. 125k+ miles on that engine and its never been opened up. Still makes 28 psi of oil pressure at idle hot. Also haven't touched the stock knock sensor calibration like many people do. There are more gains with more timing, as you noted, but the gains are tiny and the risk is not worth it.
@@richardholdener1727 yes but I don't have one. I'm playing with a m90 on a different motor. Need to know what size stock is. I could go bigger instead of dealing with changing the driven pulley.
God why wont someone make an adapter plate for a SBC GEN 1 6-71 Base to allow a copmpact magnacharger/eaton type whipple for gen 1 sbc's?? Are they scared we may outdo LSX stuff? Distributor "BEING IN THE WAY" is a "BS" excuse for them!! Someone has to be playing with something like this as i know for fact there are thousand upon thousands of gen1 guys like me who (REFUSE) to go anything but GEN 1 SBC stuff.
I wish u would do more on the 4.3 vortec v6.chevy. that F.WD. junk Don't fit a rear weel drive car. I don't care about going fast in the snow. RICH. LOL.
@@richardholdener1727 I have looked at the playlists. Never had more than 2 IN A ROW on anything else. That was the point I made. You just can't handle comments that don't kiss your butt.
Would love to see a comparison before and after adding an intercooler!
Loving the 3800 content! Thanks for doing these.
More to come!
Excellent L67 content sir!
My brother had a 2002 Grand Prix GTP with the HUD and it was such an awesome car when he got it. I was so jealous. It was fast and made good power. Then he blew that off and bought a brand new 2003 Trans Am WS6 Ram Air and it was absolutely beautiful. LS1, Ram Air, WS6 suspension, with a 6 speed? It was gorgeous. He had that for 3 years, put 5k miles on it, and sold it to a guy in Sweden (shipping it from Florida) for $60k and bought a 2007 Corvette Z06 with the LS7 with a 6 speed. Talk about a come up. Anyway, I worked at a Buick dealership at the time and we had alot of supercharged Rivieras (back in 1998 and 99) and I LOVED those cars. I'd still love to have one and modify it. I have ALWAYS wanted a Riviera in good shape with a L67 and make over 400 whp with it. BTW, he's now VERY well-off due to good business decisions and investments, has a BEAUTIFUL house in Florida, has a fully loaded 2018 Camaro ZL1, 2009 Corvette ZR1, a 1974 Camaro Z28 restomod, a 2015 Silverado Black Widow special edition, and he just bought my sister a 2018 Jaguar SUV. Damn, I wish I had only been as money-wise.
Cant wait for the turbo 2.2/2.5 stuff coming up, especially 2.5 but for common block stuff most of it is all the same. Thanks Richard 🇺🇲
I love your analytical approach to all the information you share! these are the results, this is the truth, no BS!
Glad you like them!
I have several of these m90s sitting around. I love them!
Would love to see a sbc with marine vortec intake that uses regular injectors, a plate and Eaton m112 off the Ford 5.4 trucks. The intake and blower can be picked up used at reasonable price. Could probably utilize a thin air/water intercooler without adding much height, complexity, or weight. Bet you could make a reliable 450-500 rwhp out of a junkyard vortec long block with torque for days and great throttle response
Can't wait to see boost and charge temps with the water-meth. I'm thinking all the extra boost up top on these Roots blowers is due to the high heat aka low efficiency at those speeds, and if you manage the pressurized air temp then you'll flatten that boost curve right out, and pick up a Hell of a lot of power in the process
Great to see part 3 will have WMI and spray into the TB/inlet of the supercharger. All the naysayers say you can't spray water into the supercharger. I can't wait for you to prove them wrong.
You can but it's probably not good for the lifespan of the rotor coating.
@@SenorYuk I'm sure the coating is long gone due to the egr and pcv oil into the intake. Actually the wmi will clean the rotors and help seal them and make them more efficient.
@@mp5778 the oil contamination would help the rotors seal better. Clean rotors leak. In my experience it's pretty obvious when the coating starts failing. It comes off in big flakes.
@@SenorYuk I don't know about the coatings, but I know one some early aftermarket kits using Eaton blowers back in the 90's the manufacturers mentioned that spraying meth before the blower could corrode the gear drive and bearings because they were not isolated from the intake tract. Never tested it myself.
I think the rise in boost pressure is a result of the terrible cylinder heads and small camshaft. The supercharger is increasing flow in a linear rate compared to the engine which is rapidly loosing efficiency as the rpms go up. I would like to see well ported heads and intake with larger camshaft. See what you can do with pump gas and water injection.
That would be great in a 75 Chevy Monza! I had one with the 262 V8 and Saginaw 4 speed. Just the junkyard M90 3800 , that would be mid 12’s on E85 at 352 hp. With a turbo200 from a LeSabre. At that level a sandwich charge air cooler would be great, maybe you could get 365 on a cool night. I like it, after TurboMonza is done 365 is likely with a good CAC.
see the intercooler videos where we ran 2.6 pulley-make 450 hp
I love these tests!!! 3800 & 302sbf. Richard Holdner is the man
Good stuff. Did a lot of testing with watermeth on a ~500HP 1.8T VW back in the 2006-7 and it seemed to be a complete waste of time. We were using an intercooler though.
You don’t need a higher octane rating with the E85 so all the methanol can do to add power is cool the charge, which it will. So probably 3-5% improvement.
Are you going to try to test Ford's 3.8 supercharged V-6 also?
This 👆👍
Probably a lot harder to find those in the scrapyard. I believe they only came in super coupes.
Head work, period. The stock ford 3.8L heads gain a ton of flow with a port job. Kills 2 birds with one stone (better airflow AND installing better MLS headgaskets)
My Cammed N/A 3.8L picked up 40rwhp from just a port job, and that is with a mild 206/216 cam. Actually made the same RWHP as my stock 90 supercoupe, 185ish. I've played around a lot with 3.8L fords, Tossed a Vortech V1 on that 185rwhp N/A engine and brought it up to 299rwhp @ 11-12psi. Low 13's all day long in a 3900# Thunderbird/3000 stall 4r70w, only one high 12 on a cold day. Still alive 50K later on the stock 96' Crank/rods/pistons
I machined the Pistons for this family of engines.
Hey bud I was thinking after watching all your intake test if you ever put another 5.0 mustang engine with the stock injection try relocating the injectors on top of the intake manifold where each port tube starts on a angle which could be made fairly easily with a price of aluminum bar welded on a 45 degree and see if it acts like a fuel injection dual plane
It should be interesting with the longer part of the runners and should get that cooling effect of a carbureted intake
I’ll mail you the intake if you don’t have any that are junk I got one I’ll be more then happy to send but anyway keep up the good Thxs again for everything
I think he did a test on a Honda or something with varied injector placement. Not the same motor, but the principle should be the same.
ua-cam.com/video/dQZXqbgQyTY/v-deo.html
@@Levibetz hey bud Thxs for this
Man now I’m really curious how it would do on a stock 5.0 intake being those small tube runners are so long
Im wondering if it would raise the hp a bit but really raise the torque up drastically
the old Saleen 5.0L intake had provisions for injectors in the plenum (it works to cool the charge), but it won't change the power curve offered by the stock H.O. intake (it is very restrictive)
@@richardholdener1727 oh nice Thxs again Richard btw did you ever try it with the saline intake and compare it to your other intake test?
Like to see test with more static compression and less blower speed to limit intake charge temps on L 32 HP TQ comparison …. Use N/A motor
Any chance of doing a w2a intercooler on this thing? I've sold off all the relevant parts you'd need otherwise I'd send you a LIM and 2.25" core.
Fantastic! Been waiting for this one.
When do we get the Chrysler 2.5 build? We're a thirsty bunch! 😁
direct comparison to a modern TVS1900 would be interesting maybe edelbrock or magnuson could loan you one?
Awesome sir. I've been wondering about the boost juice compared to regular -20 fluid. I turbo'd my 5.0 ranger using an hx 40. Be exciting to see if the wiper fluid is doing it jobs. Ive noticed when I pwm my extra injector that iat's go from 80* down to 35*.
Is this the new motor the last few videos were the old motor that spun a rod bearing????
this is an l67-the spun bearing motor was an l32
@@richardholdener1727 oh ok thanx dude thought it was the old one really enjoy your videos bro I’ve been a mechanic for 30 yrs really cool stuff what you do man I’ll keep watching
How about the ZZP intercooler on the Gen 3 or 5 blower?
I rather have the Super chiller modified Supercharger. That one is superior to anything I seen so far. Any supercharger can be done. Not only the factory ones.
@@garykarenmcgruther6386 killer chiller/Interchiller would be absolutely cool for the L67...
@@jaydubb71 I'm thinking about it. My buddy has one on his Terminator Cobra
Incredible content, thank you man. I've been waiting for this one
Richard is the L67 combustion chamber more efficient than the LS stuff (LS3/LSA/LS9)? Just wondering because 21 deg timing seems really low for an 2-valve OHV setup on E85. The engine wants what it wants, but I was surprised by that number. (edit) - nevermind, just saw your charge temps.....
Blow a turbo into the blower
He is
He did that already.
@@michaelblacktree I might not of seen it, watching it now.
Can you put an Eaton M120 on it?
Great numbers! its too bad that it will just crush a stock transmission.
I have an M90 laying around, but no 3800 to put it on. Maybe I can trade it for a turbo... 😛
Is the IAT the reason for the low timing figures on these engines? Those heads look similar to an SBC head as far as the combustion chamber is concerned. I'd think 32-36° all in with 150-160°F coolant temp is about right for naturally aspirated. And mid to high 20's with boost. Assuming you can get the charge temp down to 100°F or less. Or does the 3800 like timing numbers closer to an LS?
Don't know if you saw my comment but I was wondering the same thing (LS motors on E85 with 10-15 psi of boost generally like 25-28 deg). But if you look at the charge temps he was hitting 190 F at the top. So that's why timing was low.
28 DEGREES ON 15 PSI ON E85?
@@richardholdener1727 Sure, all day long. As long as the charge temps are low. Typically seeing 110-115 F at 15 psi after a 2-gear pull on an LSA with 2650 blower and good cooling. It'll run 25 deg at peak torque and 27 deg near redline at those temps. 125k+ miles on that engine and its never been opened up. Still makes 28 psi of oil pressure at idle hot. Also haven't touched the stock knock sensor calibration like many people do. There are more gains with more timing, as you noted, but the gains are tiny and the risk is not worth it.
Want to build a 3.8 for my fiero looks like cam smaller pulley and intercooler want to just run pump gas and make 400 or at least 350
I thought the 32° plus washer fluid didn't have any alcohol
The next video is gonna be 🔥
Did you still have the plate for the m90 on the LS you should try it with the smaller pulley and see if you can actually get a gain
planned
I’m wondering why you didn’t start with the L32 motor
the l32 vids are up
Run a super chiller modified Supercharger. Trust me, cool air constantly.
Even an oil cooler helps immensely at these kinds of charge temps
Have you ever covered the 2.3t Lima?
no sir
@@richardholdener1727 I think you should. They’re pretty fun to tinker with and make good numbers for an ancient 4banger.
Biggest limiting factor is the heads on 2.3 lima's
@@monikhushalpuri yeah , I’ve owned quite a few of them now
How about a little bit of nitrous now 😈
Can you tell me what size the crank pulley is on the motor?
stock
@@richardholdener1727 yes but I don't have one. I'm playing with a m90 on a different motor. Need to know what size stock is. I could go bigger instead of dealing with changing the driven pulley.
Anybody ever tried acetone in the mix for charge cooling?
more expensive
@@DarkLinkAD who cares
dry ice and acetone has been tried-is volatile
Hmmm neat
BBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOST
God why wont someone make an adapter plate for a SBC GEN 1 6-71 Base to allow a copmpact magnacharger/eaton type whipple for gen 1 sbc's??
Are they scared we may outdo LSX stuff? Distributor "BEING IN THE WAY" is a "BS" excuse for them!! Someone has to be playing with something like this as i know for fact there are thousand upon thousands of gen1 guys like me who (REFUSE) to go anything but GEN 1 SBC stuff.
that already exists
@@richardholdener1727 Link?
More boost is always better. Until it isnt
I wish u would do more on the 4.3 vortec v6.chevy. that F.WD. junk Don't fit a rear weel drive car. I don't care about going fast in the snow. RICH. LOL.
It does fit a rwd car too
the 3800 was used in the Camaro/Firebird
@@richardholdener1727 And the 2.8 (60 degree v6) was used in the jeeps in RWD fashion. Making the bell housing valuable.
Well what the hell u want cold a.i.t. ... Run nitrous
that doesn't change charge temp very much (not enough of it)
Personally I blame squirrels
Is this video 4 or 5 on this stupid 6 cylinder?
Ever do that for a Ford or Mopar? Hell no!
Total waste of time.
ever look at the mopar or ford (na & boosted) playlists with dozens of vids? total waste of time
@@richardholdener1727
I have looked at the playlists. Never had more than 2 IN A ROW on anything else. That was the point I made. You just can't handle comments that don't kiss your butt.
Waaa waaa waaa