Heh, I'm kind of saddled with the name I used when I started out. Back then I was motivated clarify the one subject. I've broadened my horizons a little since then.
@@ArmouredCarriers Keep broadening...you got a winning formula, complementary to Drach, that can be applied to all naval battles with survivor interviews (even if read from inquiry records or other written sources by ‘actors’). Good luck, thanks and hurry up with part 3!🙏
The Japanese had perfected Oxygen Torpedos which no other nation had Oxygen Torpedo's run much further much faster and were real ship killers especially when launched from aircraft. They were Top top secret and hellishly dangerous to be around but their effectiveness is undeniable
Great story and memories. But as we all agree, these were shaped by material weaknesses at sea and in the air and by complacency about the opposition. Let's not make the same mistakes again in 2022. I remember 'throwing my shoe' at the radio in 2010/11 when two MPs on a R4 discussion said we can cut the defence budget because Russia is no longer a threat. Short term thinking time and time again.............
The diversion of war fighting materials and resources away from the British forces in the Far East to other theatres was actually a conscious decision by Churchill himself. When the Japanese intention to invade became too apparent, he then tried to compensate previous decisions by sending the inadequately protected Force-Z to the Far East in a desperate gamble to outbluff the Japanese from invading. The Japanese called his bluff and sank the two battleships.
Context counts. The battle of the Philippines was taking place right next door at exactly the same time. MacArthur experienced exactly the same disastrous outcome. Everyone was tactically surprised. Everyone was tactically overwhelmed.
This was an honest opinion of the times. This was in a different time before Japan made its reputation with motorbikes, cars and electrical goods, etc. And before the qualities of the Zero fighter became known.
I really should include it in credits, or at least the youtube description, to be fair. Scenes of crew doing their jobs are very rare in newsreels. There are a few training videos. But mostly the damage control and abandon ship scenes are taken from: The Cruel Sea, Sailor of the King, In Which We Serve, Battle of the River Plate and The Yangtze Incident.
Looking forwards to part three. Well, I say looking forward….. it’ll be very tragic I expect but you know what I mean. My impression was that Force Z was thrown away in a suicide mission but I’m not sure what else they could have done. Stay in dock and get bombed or sail and get bombed. Maybe they should have made a run for safer waters but that’s just not how the RN operates.
Ask for rotating air support cover when leaving Singapore? There were many active airfields along the coast, but the Admiral didn’t expect an air attack at that far South. The whole country defence was improvised from a patchwork of local existing plans. One of the forward airbases described as destroyed here was mistakenly ordered to be razed by its own ground crew in advance of the invasion while its planes were in flight.
@@MsZeeZed Ah. I read Corelli Barnet’s book on the RN in WW2 and he seems to agree with you only he attributes a lot of the problem to Churchill wanting to show the US we’d help them and losing two capitals was a good way of proving it. I think the problem was simply not appreciating air power enough. In both attack and defence. Sure they were aware of the danger but seemed to be focused on surface actions that air attack was a pesky inconvenience really. Bottom line is that someone dropped the ball big time in allowing the situation to develop in the way it did right from the get go. Someone in charge needed to ask “ OK, so what happens if war breaks out with Japan now?”
@@geordiedog1749 At the time Force Z was despatched, no capital ship had been sunk by aircraft attack whilst at sea. Moreover, the only torpedo bombers the Royal Navy had previously encountered were Italian ones in the Mediterranean, which had proved themselves to be brave but ineffective. Ironically, at one point, Force Z was only around five miles from the Japanese cruiser squadron screening the Malayan invasion convoys. Indeed, it is odd that PoW's radar did not detect them, unless it was being rested. Whether this was the case or not, a night action between Admiral Ozawa's six cruisers and Phillips' two capital ships, both with destroyer escorts, might potentially have resulted in the postponement of the invasion, especially since PoW & Repulse both had gunnery radar. It was, of course, not to be.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 That’s a really interesting point. I think Lusty had been bombed at this point (I’ll check) and maybe that made them think “well, she survived!” I’d say that maybe no capitals were lost but the RN and MN had taken such a clobbering by the Luftwaffe that they must have seen the writing on the wall. (What had been) The Progress in Tactics committee had just reevaluate the effect of SAP 500lbs bombs from glide and dive bombing and had concluded it could destroy a capital ship so surely someone must have realised that the same applied to the RN ships? As you have got my brain slowly grinding forward I’m thinking that to this point the biggest ship lost to air attack was actually the Koenigsberg - sunk by the humble Skua - need to check. What would have been interesting also would have been a night action - both the IJN and RN were experts. My feeling is that it would have been carnage. Well, even more so that normal. Lastly, I think the admiralty were paranoid about being detected by their own radio signals. Might explain why POW didn’t detect the Japanese cruisers. :)
@@geordiedog1749 Illustrious had been heavily bombed by Fleigerkorps X. She was hit by five bombs, only one of which pierced the armoured deck, and there were two near misses. There was a further hit in a second attack. She reached New York (via Malta & Durban), in May, and received repairs and improvements, before returning to sea in October. At the time, the biggest warship lost to air attack was indeed Konigsberg, although she was in harbour when dive bombed. Lancastria, of course, sunk in St. Nazaire, was a horrendous loss. The thing people often don't realise about Force Z was that both capital ships were sunk by torpedoes, not by bombs. Each was hit by one bomb, but in each case the deck armour was not penetrated.
Pretty bad to send these ships out with no air cover. Hard to understand the reasoning. Desperation I guess. Interesting , the Japanese did better at horizontal bombing of ships than most.
I think …. Think….. that they were supposed to have had air cover from LBFs (even if it was Brewster Buffalos they’d have still been some use in disrupting the attacks) but it turned up too late due to some coms screw up. Might find out in part three.
Lack of understanding of the threat by the Admiral is most cited. There was indeed a squadron assigned to them, but its plain to see to truth of Force Z wanting strict radio silence to avoid triangulation despite having been seen by enemy planes & in fact submarines, when they should have been calling for help. Their original mission was to have included an aircraft carrier after all.
@@geordiedog1749 By the 1940s the Buffalo was outdated as a dogfighter. It was the first good naval monoplane fighter, but had been designed to fight biplanes. Even so against bombers they would have been at least disruptive to their tight formations, despite its slow rate of climb. Malaya had been asking London for Hurricanes for over a year, but they were very much the 3rd front in British military planning and had to do with what was left over from the Home Islands & North Africa. There were a lot of local plans for the Malaya defence, but they were never pulled together into a single battle plan, hence when the Japanese attacked everyone reacted peacemeal, arrived late, messages were not relayed promptly (though relaying every enemy aircraft sighting to every command was a tough ask in the Pacific) and you can hear here even the ship gun officers not having drilled Flak fire control while wearing protective clothing before. These small complacencies combined with a distain for Japanese martial ability, when they clearly had veteran units from their wars with Russian & China in the 30’s added up to some very poor leadership of some very good hardware & crews on the British side. It goes with statements in part one, of the ship crews thinking that Singapore looked very unprepared for invasion compared to London.
@@MsZeeZed I doubt Hurricanes would have helped. The problems you outline above basically meant we could have had the Death Star and it would still have gone wrong!
Some of problem is the man in charge of force Z. The Royal Air Force wasn't asked before it was too late to arrive in time. Just a opinion from various sources written after the war. Thanks for the excellent video. From this Canuck. Rest in Peace greatest generation.
It's well worth reading books such as the Royal Navy in Eastern Waters by Boyd. A careful reading of the archives show that air cover was arranged by the admiral. It was even sitting ready to go. But a series of confusing signals may have convinced the admiral that "air cover was impossible".
Yes. British Intelligence in Singapore had a very good idea of the capabilities of Japanese Zeros and bombers. For some incomprehensible reason, it either never went up the chain of command - or command ignored it.
The British military attache in China even managed to make detailed construction drawings and specifications of the zero fighter from wreckage found in Chungking China and sent them back to the Air Ministry in London before the Japanese declared war against Britain. Nobody made good use of them sadly. Armoured Carriers actually made a video on this subject.
Ark Royal had only just been sunk. HMS Formidable and Illustrious were getting ready to be deployed after undergoing battle damage repairs. HMS Victorious was needed with the Home Fleet. HMS Eagle was all the Mediterranean Fleet had available to it.
@@ArmouredCarriers Thanks, the better choice with hindsight would have been cancellation, that is if any sense could have been driven into Churchill. Furious with fighters only would have been better than no carrier at all, I suppose it would have made a strong negative impression sending such a geriatric ship out. The 'fleet's' deterence effect was nill anyway.
@@geordiedog1749 Force Z was sent in the hope that it would provide a deterrent to Japanese ambitions in the area. Aren't judgements with the benefit of hindsight easy?
We helped them in WW 1 even thought they attacked us personally in 1776 and 1812. Interesting how 100 years later changes things. I do love the UK and their states. Let it be a lesson for all of us. So Sad, We in the USA didn't help them before this. The UK, France and the USA thought we are immune from another war. We ALL learned our lesson. Always stay on guard.
The same time this was happening , General MacArthur was getting blasted out of the Philippines and Admiral Hard had his fleet retreat to the Dutch East Indies. So the situation was mutual.
@@ArmouredCarriers Yes We stayed away. Until we said hell no and went in, bud. I do not agree withe FDR's stance, but that is why these UK folks had a hard time they thought they were superior. even though we gave them lend-lease aircraft and tanks. Then we got our shit kicked in at Pearl Harbor.
Can this British man with the affected aristocrat tone stop talking,That's why us Yanks LOVE AUSTRALIANS, They don't talk so Fancy,Strange but not fancy. GOD BLESS AUSTRALIA!!@
This channel beats anything on TV, in it's field, by far.
This is a very detailed description of the actions that day and the tragic circumstances of being overextended with no air cover.
The men speaking in these videos are just so impressive.
You are doing a hell of a job on this history. Keep it up, very impressed.
I like that this channel doesn't include just armoured carriers, but also when they really could have used an armoured carrier.
Heh, I'm kind of saddled with the name I used when I started out. Back then I was motivated clarify the one subject. I've broadened my horizons a little since then.
@@ArmouredCarriers Jamie, your stuff is pretty fantastic. Thanks for putting this together.
@@ArmouredCarriers Keep broadening...you got a winning formula, complementary to Drach, that can be applied to all naval battles with survivor interviews (even if read from inquiry records or other written sources by ‘actors’). Good luck, thanks and hurry up with part 3!🙏
A fantastic piece of war documentary!
Thank you, a great memorial to the memory of all these men.
No it's not. It's pure bs
Excellent production.
With a bit of luck, Repulse could still survive this. Can't wait for next episode.
Erm………….
A well made, researched and informative documentary. Thank you.
Amazing video thank you love the use of the footage from various British Navel war films too. (:
Superb,once again. Cant beat witness testimony for authenticity. 👍
You might think you know what happened; but you don't really know. This is the closest you can get. Thanks Mr Armored Carriers!
They set em up or they were trying to escape
@@vincebenson1215 not too sure I understand your comment; Merry Christmas!
These are so well done!
Very well done
Ah Repulse. Torpedo beats, the ship.
The Japanese had perfected Oxygen Torpedos which no other nation had Oxygen Torpedo's run much further much faster and were real ship killers especially when launched from aircraft. They were Top top secret and hellishly dangerous to be around but their effectiveness is undeniable
My wife’s uncle was a survivor from the Repulse and spent the rest of the war as a pow
Really? No one has ever shown they made it off the ship from that time
This is really hard to watch, knowing how it will end.
Terry Thomas returns, so they say
Why not just say part 2 or something similar. These 3 documentaries about Force Z is worth watching. Excellent.
Never heard of level flight bombers hitting anything before ?
Great story and memories.
But as we all agree, these were shaped by material weaknesses at sea and in the air and by complacency about the opposition.
Let's not make the same mistakes again in 2022.
I remember 'throwing my shoe' at the radio in 2010/11 when two MPs on a R4 discussion said we can cut the defence budget because Russia is no longer a threat.
Short term thinking time and time again.............
The diversion of war fighting materials and resources away from the British forces in the Far East to other theatres was actually a conscious decision by Churchill himself. When the Japanese intention to invade became too apparent, he then tried to compensate previous decisions by sending the inadequately protected Force-Z to the Far East in a desperate gamble to outbluff the Japanese from invading. The Japanese called his bluff and sank the two battleships.
What did fighting efficiency matter ? They weren’t fighting - They we’re just a relatively easy target ! 😢
Crass incompetence, unfortunately, responsible. The British class system has it pros and contras. Meritocracy isn’t one of the pros.
Terrible game plan ? Medieval Tactics ? Charge of the Light Brigade ? 🤨
Context counts. The battle of the Philippines was taking place right next door at exactly the same time. MacArthur experienced exactly the same disastrous outcome. Everyone was tactically surprised. Everyone was tactically overwhelmed.
Looks like there rid bits of a war film included. Which movie is it from?
A mix. Sailor of the Crown, Cruel Sea ... But the vast majority is newsreel.
@@ArmouredCarriers thank you
@@ArmouredCarriers and prancing Noel Coward doing his Louie Mountbatten impression from ‘In Which We Serve.’
Who made the comment about the Japanese aircraft being made from bamboo and rice paper?
I think it was an "off the cuff" retelling of the general attitude of Royal Navy sailors before the reality of war set in.
This was an honest opinion of the times. This was in a different time before Japan made its reputation with motorbikes, cars and electrical goods, etc. And before the qualities of the Zero fighter became known.
Great video as always! I was wondering if the some of the action footage you are using is from a movie and if so, what is the title of it?
I really should include it in credits, or at least the youtube description, to be fair.
Scenes of crew doing their jobs are very rare in newsreels. There are a few training videos. But mostly the damage control and abandon ship scenes are taken from: The Cruel Sea, Sailor of the King, In Which We Serve, Battle of the River Plate and The Yangtze Incident.
@@ArmouredCarriers Thank you! I will check them out.
Looking forwards to part three. Well, I say looking forward….. it’ll be very tragic I expect but you know what I mean.
My impression was that Force Z was thrown away in a suicide mission but I’m not sure what else they could have done. Stay in dock and get bombed or sail and get bombed. Maybe they should have made a run for safer waters but that’s just not how the RN operates.
Ask for rotating air support cover when leaving Singapore? There were many active airfields along the coast, but the Admiral didn’t expect an air attack at that far South. The whole country defence was improvised from a patchwork of local existing plans. One of the forward airbases described as destroyed here was mistakenly ordered to be razed by its own ground crew in advance of the invasion while its planes were in flight.
@@MsZeeZed Ah. I read Corelli Barnet’s book on the RN in WW2 and he seems to agree with you only he attributes a lot of the problem to Churchill wanting to show the US we’d help them and losing two capitals was a good way of proving it. I think the problem was simply not appreciating air power enough. In both attack and defence. Sure they were aware of the danger but seemed to be focused on surface actions that air attack was a pesky inconvenience really. Bottom line is that someone dropped the ball big time in allowing the situation to develop in the way it did right from the get go. Someone in charge needed to ask “ OK, so what happens if war breaks out with Japan now?”
@@geordiedog1749 At the time Force Z was despatched, no capital ship had been sunk by aircraft attack whilst at sea. Moreover, the only torpedo bombers the Royal Navy had previously encountered were Italian ones in the Mediterranean, which had proved themselves to be brave but ineffective.
Ironically, at one point, Force Z was only around five miles from the Japanese cruiser squadron screening the Malayan invasion convoys. Indeed, it is odd that PoW's radar did not detect them, unless it was being rested.
Whether this was the case or not, a night action between Admiral Ozawa's six cruisers and Phillips' two capital ships, both with destroyer escorts, might potentially have resulted in the postponement of the invasion, especially since PoW & Repulse both had gunnery radar.
It was, of course, not to be.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 That’s a really interesting point. I think Lusty had been bombed at this point (I’ll check) and maybe that made them think “well, she survived!” I’d say that maybe no capitals were lost but the RN and MN had taken such a clobbering by the Luftwaffe that they must have seen the writing on the wall. (What had been) The Progress in Tactics committee had just reevaluate the effect of SAP 500lbs bombs from glide and dive bombing and had concluded it could destroy a capital ship so surely someone must have realised that the same applied to the RN ships?
As you have got my brain slowly grinding forward I’m thinking that to this point the biggest ship lost to air attack was actually the Koenigsberg - sunk by the humble Skua - need to check.
What would have been interesting also would have been a night action - both the IJN and RN were experts. My feeling is that it would have been carnage. Well, even more so that normal.
Lastly, I think the admiralty were paranoid about being detected by their own radio signals. Might explain why POW didn’t detect the Japanese cruisers.
:)
@@geordiedog1749 Illustrious had been heavily bombed by Fleigerkorps X. She was hit by five bombs, only one of which pierced the armoured deck, and there were two near misses. There was a further hit in a second attack. She reached New York (via Malta & Durban), in May, and received repairs and improvements, before returning to sea in October.
At the time, the biggest warship lost to air attack was indeed Konigsberg, although she was in harbour when dive bombed. Lancastria, of course, sunk in St. Nazaire, was a horrendous loss.
The thing people often don't realise about Force Z was that both capital ships were sunk by torpedoes, not by bombs. Each was hit by one bomb, but in each case the deck armour was not penetrated.
Pretty bad to send these ships out with no air cover. Hard to understand the reasoning. Desperation I guess. Interesting , the Japanese did better at horizontal bombing of ships than most.
I think …. Think….. that they were supposed to have had air cover from LBFs (even if it was Brewster Buffalos they’d have still been some use in disrupting the attacks) but it turned up too late due to some coms screw up. Might find out in part three.
Lack of understanding of the threat by the Admiral is most cited. There was indeed a squadron assigned to them, but its plain to see to truth of Force Z wanting strict radio silence to avoid triangulation despite having been seen by enemy planes & in fact submarines, when they should have been calling for help. Their original mission was to have included an aircraft carrier after all.
@@geordiedog1749 By the 1940s the Buffalo was outdated as a dogfighter. It was the first good naval monoplane fighter, but had been designed to fight biplanes. Even so against bombers they would have been at least disruptive to their tight formations, despite its slow rate of climb. Malaya had been asking London for Hurricanes for over a year, but they were very much the 3rd front in British military planning and had to do with what was left over from the Home Islands & North Africa. There were a lot of local plans for the Malaya defence, but they were never pulled together into a single battle plan, hence when the Japanese attacked everyone reacted peacemeal, arrived late, messages were not relayed promptly (though relaying every enemy aircraft sighting to every command was a tough ask in the Pacific) and you can hear here even the ship gun officers not having drilled Flak fire control while wearing protective clothing before. These small complacencies combined with a distain for Japanese martial ability, when they clearly had veteran units from their wars with Russian & China in the 30’s added up to some very poor leadership of some very good hardware & crews on the British side. It goes with statements in part one, of the ship crews thinking that Singapore looked very unprepared for invasion compared to London.
@@MsZeeZed I doubt Hurricanes would have helped. The problems you outline above basically meant we could have had the Death Star and it would still have gone wrong!
Some of problem is the man in charge of force Z. The Royal Air Force wasn't asked before it was too late to arrive in time. Just a opinion from various sources written after the war. Thanks for the excellent video. From this Canuck. Rest in Peace greatest generation.
It's well worth reading books such as the Royal Navy in Eastern Waters by Boyd. A careful reading of the archives show that air cover was arranged by the admiral. It was even sitting ready to go. But a series of confusing signals may have convinced the admiral that "air cover was impossible".
Why had technical developments by the Japanese been ignored, someone must have known?
Yes. British Intelligence in Singapore had a very good idea of the capabilities of Japanese Zeros and bombers. For some incomprehensible reason, it either never went up the chain of command - or command ignored it.
The British military attache in China even managed to make detailed construction drawings and specifications of the zero fighter from wreckage found in Chungking China and sent them back to the Air Ministry in London before the Japanese declared war against Britain. Nobody made good use of them sadly. Armoured Carriers actually made a video on this subject.
Got to have clean pants on in case your wounded!! My mum used to say something like that in case I got run over and had to go hospital !
When the Indom' ran aground in the Carribbean why was another carrier not sent out? What were the higher priorities?
Ark Royal had only just been sunk. HMS Formidable and Illustrious were getting ready to be deployed after undergoing battle damage repairs. HMS Victorious was needed with the Home Fleet. HMS Eagle was all the Mediterranean Fleet had available to it.
@@ArmouredCarriers Thanks, the better choice with hindsight would have been cancellation, that is if any sense could have been driven into Churchill. Furious with fighters only would have been better than no carrier at all, I suppose it would have made a strong negative impression sending such a geriatric ship out. The 'fleet's' deterence effect was nill anyway.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 I think the key word in all of that is ‘Churchill’.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 Furious was refitting in Philadelphia at the time.
@@geordiedog1749 Force Z was sent in the hope that it would provide a deterrent to Japanese ambitions in the area. Aren't judgements with the benefit of hindsight easy?
What is the name of the melody of the beginning?
Title Music: Georges Bizet: the farandole from the opera L' Arlesienne
ua-cam.com/video/2y09pD1r-Qs/v-deo.html
what is the title of the intro music pls?
Title Music: Georges Bizet: the farandole from the opera L' Arlesienne
ua-cam.com/video/2y09pD1r-Qs/v-deo.html
No such thing as luetenant in the British navy, he’s a left tenant.
Tu parles, les Japonais les attendaient comme au coin du bois ! 🆘️
What are you talking about???
Dad's Army at sea.
We helped them in WW 1 even thought they attacked us personally in 1776 and 1812. Interesting how 100 years later changes things. I do love the UK and their states. Let it be a lesson for all of us. So Sad, We in the USA didn't help them before this. The UK, France and the USA thought we are immune from another war. We ALL learned our lesson. Always stay on guard.
The same time this was happening , General MacArthur was getting blasted out of the Philippines and Admiral Hard had his fleet retreat to the Dutch East Indies. So the situation was mutual.
@@ArmouredCarriers Yes We stayed away. Until we said hell no and went in, bud. I do not agree withe FDR's stance, but that is why these UK folks had a hard time they thought they were superior. even though we gave them lend-lease aircraft and tanks. Then we got our shit kicked in at Pearl Harbor.
What makes One think Buffalo’s,Fairleys,or Sordfish would have made ANY DIFFERENCE AGAINS THE JAPANESE FIGHTERS AND BOMBERS?
Part 3?
In production…
Subs missing.
Can this British man with the affected aristocrat tone stop talking,That's why us Yanks LOVE AUSTRALIANS, They don't talk so Fancy,Strange but not fancy. GOD BLESS AUSTRALIA!!@