I'm a 1st gen Vietnamese American and I personally don't have any trauma narratives. I was born in the US and grew up like any American kid, except with a Vietnamese/Asian cultural underlay. We weren't rich and needed some govt. assistance initially to get going, but I had a happy childhood and didn't feel like I was lacking in any way. I did grow up listening to stories from my mom about her and our relatives fleeing the country...losing everything, their possessions, their friends, families, identity, culture and going through a harrowing experience, seeking escape and salvation. The confusion and fear of going to an unknown foreign place...the deaths on the boats. But living with them all my life, they never complained, they never claimed victim. They just soldiered on and lived. I admired them all for it and was and am still in awe of what they went through. I'm very grateful for what we have today and still am. I can't speak for them but from what I've seen, I don't think they dwell on the trauma. Dwelling on it can be disabling and possibly the wrong path to go down in life because you focus on the negative instead of the positive.
I appreciate your perspective. The uniqueness to the trauma that Black Americans have experienced is not as immigrants with historical, cultural, linguistic context, but as captive slaves with purposely deleted history, culture, linguistic context. You have a direct lineage and I’m sure an affinity for Vietnamese culture. Having lived in SoCal for nearly 10 years and meeting a lot of people from Vietnam, I sensed the cultural pride. But imagine if Vietnam was gone. Imagine that emptiness you’d feel, even in your home country of America. A massive link to your heritage, your lineage, has evaporated. That’s where we are, now. Black Americans are still trying to understand WHO we are, having only been legally “free” for 59 years. We know what continent we’re from, but not WHERE in that continent. It’s been scrambled from centuries of wars, colonialism and neo-colonialism. Of all the minorities in America, we are the only one who has no outside allies. Today, if Vietnamese Americans are being targeted, it will draw a response from Vietnam and its allies. No different than if Korean, or Indonesian, Japanese Americans experienced being targeted for a various reason. S.Korea, Indonesia, Japan would absolutely launch a geopolitical response. Of all the times Black Americans have been targeted, it took the Soviet Union of all people, to force America’s hand in drafting the Civil Rights Bill of 1964. Not an African country or coalition of African nations. They were silent. Now, does it mean life is miserable? No! And I do agree at some point we have to say, as you stated, stop dwelling on the negative. There are too many opportunities in America for all, in 2023. I’m a big believer in this, personally. BUT, as a race, we are not there yet. I don’t know what it will take to get there. But we are a psychologically and emotionally damaged race. Most immigrants have very, very little understanding of the psychological impact slavery and Jim Crow did to our thinking patterns. Again, a lot of us are moving forward despite what this country has done to us and how it exploited us for centuries. But unilaterally, we’re not there just yet.
@@ian_fordI'm sorry but Vietnam wouldn't give two shits if Vietnamese Americans were targeted, nor any other Asian country. Asian Americans are not seen as Asian in their eyes, we are western washed. We're good to beg money from and that's about as much as they care. They're most likely thinking - well, that's the cost of going to America, and then go about their day in their own country. Black Americans are not the only displaced persons in the history of mankind, slave or otherwise. Go ask the decendants of black slaves of Muslim empires how they fare being targeted. Oh wait, there aren't many because they had their BALLS CHOPPED OFF. 😬 While you're at it, go ask your fellow Africans why they sold their own because apparently skin folk ain't kin folk.
@@ian_fordI lived in the black caribbean for a few years. The caribbeans, having been slaves and colonial subjects until mid xxc have no sense of trauma or longing for an african past or precaribbean history of their people. They have no hangups about slavery and have strong national and family pride. I remember watching black american movies with them and while they understand black american experience, they dont share the resentment.
@@ian_fordnow explain why American blacks were doing infinitely better in 1965 than they are today ? You are bellyaching about something you can never fix Worry about lack of school choice Defund the police which has 8x as many American blacks oppose as support The achievement gap being largest in the most left-wing cities The bottom 90% of Americans have gotten steadily poorer since 1971 Open borders driving down wages and driving up housing prices among many other negative externalities Insane amounts of QE since 2008 that have driven up house prices incredibly .welfare policy that has subsidized illegitimacy incredibly for nigh 60 years
@@ian_ford. Voluminously worded competition for “the most victimized” ..is ON! The point was that if you hang onto traumas that you personally didn’t suffer, you are hurting yourself on your progress. But that’s YOUR responsibility and your choice…. This should NOT be born by anyone else or any society. You want to carry it as your cross, then the consequences are yours. We all have a story. ( I guarantee all families have a UNIQUE history as slaves because that’s what happened when you lost a fight with the neighboring tribe. It’s human history.)
Weird coincidence. I'm currently reading Kang's book The Loneliest Americans. Just started chapter 4 and I barely can put it down to listen to this podcast. It's an awesome book.
Being married into an Asian family, and seeing the interaction between multiple different Asian families... There does seem to be a fairly cultural aspect of family unity, putting the children first, pushing and supporting education, and the idea of holding their children accountable...Dumping money into the school system will only accomplish the spending of more money. To improve our education system, we need to create an American culture of parents pushing and supporting education from home!
Well, a lot of the school today is malarkey. No fundamental ideas taught, only flash card type answer responses to questions, without centric focus on the student and the understanding they know what they’re talking about, schools teach more about being institutionalized into a work environment that requires a scheduled arrival and an unquestionable agreement with what they’re doing while they’re there.
Everyone SAYS they value education and support education. But they don't. Not really. Not the same as some immigrant groups, it's not just asian immigrant groups. They aren't willing to make the same sort of sacrifices, they aren't willing to put their kids through the same struggle.
I barely even graduated highschool but I read and learn a lot on my own. I run into uni students at the book store and my god the culture is so bizarre. They lack the most basic comprehension skills. Like, they always want censored versions of ancient poetry or philosophy.. In some cases the censoring of gendered language just completely disregards the entire point of reading anything to begin with. It's gross and very communist
I find it funny that when Jay Caspian Kang wanted to know what Asian students thought of being discriminated against during the admittance process he asked the Asians that got admitted to Harvard. You're asking only the defendants that were acquitted what they think of the Justice System! Go ask the Asians that had the grades and aptitude to go to and succeed at Harvard but who instead had to go to the University of Michigan what they think! Go ask the Asians that should have got into the University of Michigan but were instead admitted to Michigan State what they think. I also find it suspect that white people aren't broken out into component ethnicities, like the dog that didn't bark. I imagine if certain 'white' groups weren't being over-represented we would here about it if only to show it wasn't taking place.
University of Michigan? Don't you think more likely some other Ivy or Stanford or Chicago or Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Berkeley or UVA or Tulane or Johns Hopkins?
@@SEAsiaTraveler Or maybe, just maybe those other ivy leagues also have some versions of discriminative admission? The supreme court decision affected every single school you referred to....
If I were wealthy and with college age kids, I wouldn't want them to attend Harvard or any of the other Ivy + schools. I'd rather not spend massive amounts of money on an institution intent on teaching them to hate the system that made me rich--or thinking they can atone for their privilege through Maoist struggle sessions and scattershot activism. I wouldn't want that kind of headache in my life. Perhaps there will come a time when admissions and donations will tail off, and these institutions, having alienated their core clientele, will have to adapt or die.
The donations are too good for institutions to bypass. The desire for monetary prosperity has long surpassed moral platitudes about doing what’s ethical. I’m not that optimistic that they will course correct on their own accord. At least not without a cataclysmic event or scandal occurring that rocks the foundation of education system.
I was a little surprised to hear Kang say (beginning about 16:35) he found it offensive that admissions officers thought Asian and Latino students were there, in his words, to "perform cultural theater" for white kids. That was always the explicit rationale for affirmative action, that it was necessary to garner the benefits of "diversity," which were exposure to varied cultures.
If Asian Americans identify more closely with African Americans that whites as their allies, then the DNC has done an excellent job. I identify with people who have similar values and ethics and could care less about skin color. I identify more with Loury than say Krugman. Why would anyone want to group themselves according to skin color? It is shallow and unfulfilling with what we share.
I’m so curious as to why affirmative action was focused on before legacy admission; is it fair to say that the least advantages was focused on before the privileged? I hope as I watch they discuss it
Glenn, you cited Lee and Zhou's wonderful book The Asian American Achievement Paradox, and I think the authors would push back to your general labeling of their book as a cultural argument. Their's is more of a cultural capital theory argument or a class-based cultural access argument. They are actually very critical of what they call "cultural essentialists" who make facile appeals to Asian values as the source of the Asian American achievement gap. Their cultural capital theory argument relies on the Asian selective immigration in the post-1965 epoch, parenting practices, and what they call the Asian American Success Frame with all providing a class-based mechanism that fuels Asian American achievement. I think they would take offense as being labeled a values argument. Their analytical model relies on social causation, with culture only serving as the lapdog of class privilege by way of parent's educational background.
Read " Excellent Sheep " by William Deresiewicz For the thesis explaining why no good parent should ever want to have their kids attend elite US universities
Jay needs to be read in on the CCP. He’s expressing a surprisingly naive (disingenuously so?) worldview on all things related to the Communisy State in China.
Jay is OK, but he is still caught up in the Socialist class thing. Wealthy people are Americans too, and they do not deserve, in a zero-sum game, discrimination. If they show promise that they may best be able to do Nobel-Prize-winning research and contribute to humanity, why should they be barred from a place where they can be nurtured to give it a go?
@@safetythirdified Crafting grievances is not limited to rich kids. Two-thirds of Harvard's black kids are middle class, upper class, or foreign-born. Grievance essays can be gotten free on the Internet; it won't take long before ChatGPT can write grievance essays for you.
Major businesses / companies in the US are taking measures to decouple from China. There is a deep rooted political will to do so also. The kingpin in all of this is Taiwan (think semiconductors). US and US businesses are taking measures to mitigate the dependence on China and Taiwan (strategically). It is happening behind the scenes and it is happening. Any doubters should focus on the recent growth of India and Mexico in these tech sector spaces...as well as the US itself.
it's bigger than harvard .. the top 5 schools (harvard yale princeton columbia stanford) have monopolized our politics courts media corporations & finance for the last 40 years ...
I can appreciate Kang’s impetus to question the existence of schools like Harvard (as opposed to systems elsewhere in the world) but how do you get rid or drastically change institutions that been around for hundreds of years? Furthermore elitism and elite institutions will always rise up, even in a place like Canada…think McGill. It seems to me that effort needs to be put on how do we push places like Harvard to really foster economic diversity…but Harvard represents American values and at core in this society is a hard wired belief in hierarchy and attempts to destroy that hierarchy are eventually rebuffed
McGill is a good university that lives on an exaggerated reputation constructed by rich American elites (who couldn't get their dumber kids into the Ivy League). Ask a Canadian or other international person -- who isn't a McGill alum, of course -- whether McGill deserves the reputation rich Americans fabricated for McGill
The idea that nations were too economically interdependent to go to war was popular before WW1 as well. People who do not think China and the US can decouple need to ask themselves what they think will happen to US-China trade if say a conflict over Taiwan happens. When the bullets start flying the trade is going to stop.
This is the fellow that conducted that infamously dishonest interview of Jordan Peterson for Vice about five years ago, and then clipped it to have him saying the opposite of what he actually said in the interview.
I remember my employer was actively searching for a VP role one time. One man was eventually selected after numerous interviews out of a list of all male candidates. HR was supposed to send him an offer but they received one late submission from a female, so they rushed to interview her out of the need for diversity. In the end, she decided to back out of the process due to personal reasons and the selected candidate took a position elsewhere. Sexism and racism is very rampant in Human Resources these days thanks to the DEI ideology.
This isn't about DEI - it's about not being sued for discrimination. DEI is a cancer on college campuses, but sex based discrimination isn't allowed under the law. You're just hearing about more of this lately b/c the law is starting to be enforced.
> "Why do they accept the existence of the Ivy League?" Let me suggest that the reason "they" accept the Ivy League is that the people doing the public discussion went to elite colleges, and this background was an essential credential for getting into the "public opinion" career track. I won't suggest that the people on that track deliberately work to entrench their own privilege for selfish reasons. But I do think they honestly believe that they've "earned" their position by dint of hard work to get into these colleges, generally following up with graduate degrees, and that this is a good and just way to select society's elites. The idea that a person with a high school diploma, or maybe a Bachelor's degree from an obscure college, should be considered for elite positions must seem slightly ridiculous. Edited to add: So, a question for Jay: If you someday get in the position of hiring journalists for your prestigious publication, would you ignore the educational background of an applicant, and look only for writing talent and dogged journalistic dedication to the truth? Or would you look more favorably on the applicant with a Bachelor's degree from Yale and a Master's degree from the Columbia School of Journalism? Edited again to add: The elite credentialism just goes on. I just found out about a program run by the National Math and Science Initiative - the STEM to the Stars program. The program is intended "to inspire, educate and celebrate the wonders of STEM, space exploration and the history of human spaceflight", with an emphasis on reaching students. The program is open to the public, which is wonderful. It's being held on Martha's Vineyard. Who is this intended to reach? Obviously, the children of people who vacation on Martha's Vineyard. If the objective is to inspire a broad range of young people to study STEM fields and reach for careers in science, technology, and aerospace, why not put the event in New York? Or Boston? Or Philadelphia? Or Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles, or even Lexington, MA or Princeton, NJ? This event is a caricature of the privileged elites propagating the next generation of privileged elites from the children of today's privileged elites.
Jay noticed that the SFFA decision didn't seem to generate the public outrage that he expected. I think there are a couple of reasons. -Glenn mentioned opinion surveys showing significant chunks of the population have turned against affirmative action. -Glenn also mentioned the fact that such small number of schools are actually affected (less than 10% of all 4 year schools in the US) -Another reason that Glenn didn't mention is that American Descendants of Slaves (ADOS) for whom affirmative action was created, likely realize that the program is not working for them and hasn't worked for them for a couple of decades. Upwards of 2/3 of the listed "black" students at selective colleges are either immigrants or children of immigrants from Africa/Caribbean or biracial. ADOS will not take to the streets to defend a program from which they largely do not benefit. I laughed at Jay's suggestion that his role at a selective college was to bring the kimchi. Liberal white college administrators tend to think of their diversity initiatives as some kind of multicultural potluck. The Korean kid brings the kimchi, the Mexican brings the tamales, the black kid brings the soul food . . .
I feel like most Americans give up on the idea that they could ever get into an elite school by the time they are 14, and don't realize how many people are just as intelligent as people who get into elite schools or how much of a huge difference in your future getting into one of these schools vs not getting into another school changes the outcome of your life.
Though I also laughed about the kimchi line; I was a bit taken aback by his suggestion that as a minority we "play" our culture. That was offensive. As if we need to hide who we are to fit in with the dominant culture. No, you're not required to "bring kimchi to the potluck," but if you eat kimchi, eat your kimchi unashamed. Not to eat it would be "playing."
49:06 I'm a white boy from the South. Yes, THAT South. I cannot understand how/why anyone in America might decide to take out his anger toward China, another country which isn't nearby, on random Asian people on the streets of America. In what way does that make a single bit of sense? I DO NOT like the use of the possibility of this sort of nonsensical backlash as some sort of reason to not handle China with the strong treatment it may deserve. China's way is not and MUST NOT be the American way. We must be strong on China. We must not take out our frustration with China on random Asians, including most Chinese in China.
Where I see there greatest lack of diversity in the current university system, is in diversity of thought. I do NOT believe that it is in the best interest of (true) education, or in society itself to teach ideology as undeniable truth, as is currently (obviously) being done... This includes, but goes well beyond identity politics.
Interesting point about generational trauma as Cambodians came her during a genocide, Vietnamese during a civil war. How far back can we go. Irish came here on a slow boat during a famine, Germans during the holocaust, the founders during a religious persecution. Is there a group that came here from a country in large numbers when everyone was fat and happy?
Actually the bulk Germans--the largest immigrant group to the US--came long before that. Latter 19th century. FWIW, to be factual, very few Cambodians got out during the KR period; the refugees were fleeing the Vietnamese occupation and Civil War of the entire decade of 1980s. (Cambodians really, really don't like Vietnamese.) Similarly, the 20-year-long history of the Vietnamese exodus was after full occupation by the North. Yes, for sure, many fleeing conscription and fighting in Cambodia, but mostly fleeing starvation, political & religious persecution and deepening poverty. Nonetheless, 40% of legal immigrants arriving in US in recent decades already have college degrees. These are not your grandparents' immigrants. Mainland Chinese, Taiwanese, Indians and Filipinos are not fleeing poverty or war. Neither are Koreans, for that matter. They could have a comfortable life at home but are climbing the economic ladder. Look up their per capita or household income. True too of all the Russians who immigrated in the 1990s. Jewish ones.had their worries, of course, but were not fleeing war.
When for decades girls and women "underperformed" in math the idea that schools should only teach to the female level never came up. Even though they made up 50% of classroom enrollment and came from completely diverse backgrounds. What they did was reach out to female students and help them succeed. Why is it different now?
What seems to count now is the soft bigotry of low expectations, participation in the Olympics of victimhood, points for the highest “traumatic experience”. Admission parameters devoid of actual knowledge evaluation and racist and divisive to the core I might add. “E pluribus Unum” has been substituted by “Divide and conquer“
I just noticed that Glenn asked Kang about the impact of culture on academic achievement. Kang talked briefly about Asians vs. whites but never got around to blacks and Latinos, which is where the real problem lies. I guess Jay's progressivism wont let him go down that road.
@@Razaiel there are certainly cultural differences in terms of how much a given group emphasizes education and spend time on it. Whether those differences are "inherent" is debatable.
@@sandrastewart7544 if you are asking a serious question just look at the racial achievement gaps in K-12 education. There's clearly a huge problem right there.
what a great discussion. Needs more views!!! There are many different kinds of asians in the world and treating them as a monolithic group is unacceptable.
It's wishful thinking imho. The lunatic chest-thumping by US politicians to go to war with China for economic reasons is quite frightening. For one it is dishonest and for 2 China will be a harder nut to crack than Japan in the 1980s
His ethnicity isn't what drives his reluctance to divest from China, its his class. He's a wealthy liberal who would rather outsource pollution to another country so that he can get cheap consumer goods while at the same time thinking that he's saving the planet.
The all-white discussion of affirmative action might very well have raised the similar question, "How would our discussion be different if there happened to be black students here?" Not all white people think alike.
I am very torn by this subject because I'm "white," whatever that means, but if you look at me, I'm brown 'cause of Native American and other things in the past, but I just applied as a white kid but from a place in the country that, let's just say, doesn't produce many students who go to elite schools. I 100% wanted (and would still want) to attend a diverse university just because I'd like to be exposed to different viewpoints (and I went before this woke stuff, so that wasn't a thing then), but I can say this. Of all the minorities that benefited from affirmative action, all of them were from way wealthier families than mine, and I know that as a fact. Now, we were surrounded by minorities in the city who were struggling in many ways, but I was probably closer to those people in terms of economics than my "minority" colleagues were, except by ethnicity, which, ok, I realize is a thing, but it wasn't helping poor people.
YES! THANK YOU! I have been saying for years that this whole, "List your traumas before you speak" BS is completely horrifying for anyone who has endured actual, real hardship. It's freaking humiliating, and a way of reminding us of our place. It IS disgusting, and I can't stand it. I'm sure it's a lot of fun for people playing pretend (as a lover of the theatre, yes, there is something to be said for the catharsis of acting--when you know that's what you're doing!), but it's a disgusting practice when it's a requirement before any major effort, like applying for college or a job.
Interesting dismissal by Jay of the Asian-majority population in Hawaii. I'm white, lived there for grad school, and appreciated the clearly minority experience.
Wait, so what the lady with the Hispanic name was upset by was that she was mistaken for a daughter of poor people? Or for being assumed to have been accepted based on AA? So her argument was that AA is good because......what? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this 🤦♀️ The only point she made was that some people were bigoted against her or minorities in general. But how does that translate to affirmative action being a net positive OR negative 🤔
Both gentlemen are brilliant and insightful. I learned many things. Glenn is much more articulate than the younger man. Glenn is a fantastic interviewer. So many young people are very bright but cannot speak well. Their talk is filled with junk words such as ‘you know’ and ‘like’. These junk terms are confusing and interrupt the discussion. I fear it is a pandemic among younger Americans. I hope all Americans Wil listen to older more articulate and say so much with an economy of words.
Glenn is a professor at Brown and Jay is a journalist who has become a public intellectual because he takes research and analysis seriously. I believe thinking clearly and rigorously is a more urgent and critical standard than the commonness of filler words.
The dumbing down of the curriculum so that students won't feel bad because they don't consider themselves "math students" is absolutely ludicrous. If anything, there needs to be more rigorous outlets for the truly gifted students. I envision a future where teachers will be replaced by AI and each student will have a curriculum crafted specifically for him/her. The "dumb kids" would be prescribed a curriculum that starts easy but be more intensive time-wise so that they can advance and maybe catch up eventually. If this means they spend less time on shit like social studies and Phys Ed, then so be it.
The major problem I have with discussions like this, is that ANY time a Leftwing institution is shown to be fundamentally flawed (in this case, racist), everyone IMMEDIATELY pivots to MORE Leftwing talking points in an attempt to deflect responsibility from the problem. An elite Leftwing university like Harvard is racist? Well, it's just the rich bourgeoisie using "acceptable" diversity as a shield to keep the poor AND the "real" minorities out. Jay (who seems nice enough), even said his "ah ha!" moment was realizing it was all about the RICH kids...but did he ever analyze deeper and ask if it was MERELY rich kids, or rich kids of a certain political background? Or rich kids from specific geographical regions? Or a whole host of OTHER factors in addition to the wealth (or being excluded from the privileged wealthy by some factor)? 22:30 People have been SO propagandized to be worried about POTENTIAL "backlash" against "racial solidarity" (aka racial supremacy), that they are WILLING to accept contemporary and active racist policies against themselves. Then you see a narrative around some cabal of white people "using" Asians as a "model minority," all the while the Left is convincing Asians to accept discrimination in order to further the goals of the racialized Left. The first idea is at least based on the truth of Asian achievement, the second, is nothing more than an emotional appeal and an appeal to "racial solidarity" (aka racial supremacy) to a race the Asians don't even belong to. It's nuts that people accept this. 1:04:00 I think the weakness with the Academy "carve-out" is that the Academies aren't the only commissioning source. You could very easily see ROTC detachements (especially at HBCUs) and OTS "making-up the difference" to keep the officer corps "racially balanced." I don't necessarily disagree with his logic, but I find the racial discrimination objectionable, and there is a flaw in his argument. That logic would also extend to sex, where women would actually (likely, I haven't seen the stats) be deprioritized, as they make up a disproportionately LOW number of enlistees compared to officers (i.e. if you are a woman in the military, you're more likely to be an officer in proportion to the total number of personnel in the military). 1:11:30 Because those are the people in control of those institutions...it benefits them.
Why do these universities, which almost universally have huge endowments, even charge tuition? If economics were taken out of the equation, they could admit anyone they wanted to. It would also be interesting to see what the makeup of these campuses would be if they could admit anyone they wanted.
Glenn -- your show is becoming an echo chamber, you seem to only have host on who agree with your world view. You play a hell of a Devils Advocate but it would be valuable to have a longer dialogue with a good faith, smart, reasonable person who has legitimate and well thought through arguments that counter the status-quo of your show. Signed a long time listener and fan who happens to agree with you 98% of the time.
There are so few right leaning echo chambers of this high of quality out there in the media that I give Glenn a pass. I doubt he wants to spend his old age arguing. I learn a ton on this podcast as it is. The argument that you are making to Glenn would be better pled to the producers at The View. Whoopi turned that show into a toxic echo chamber that is now a complete mess. Barbara Walters would not be proud.
There is a clear benefit from being a victim and this victim virtue has overtaken merit in many of today's institutions of learning. This is the result of convincing so many people that they are victims while simultaneously converting the hard work of many into privilege.
Sorry can’t take this show seriously, it is promoted by the Manhattan institute: which promoted Charles Murray author of the Bell curve, so every thing on this channel you have to take with a grain of salt due to the biased views.
It was refreshing to hear some pushback on the laziness of the term Asian to include the handful of ethnicities in Eastern Asia, which get lumped together for the sake of identity politics. I can speak on point to explain why some "Asians' by which I use the term as it more than often implies, Han Chinese, might be in favor of continuing with the present AA policies. A significant number of Han Chinese abide by racial hierarchies. They prefer to be admitted into an elite school which is regarded as exclusive and a bastion of old money whites. In their mind, the value of a Harvard diploma would drop down if it became a school with an overwhelming percentage of "Asians'. If they wanted to attend a university with a majority Han Chinese population, they would not have had to leave the PRC
My daughter got a full ride at H 24 years ago. And was encouraged to apply to Numerous schools and keep her options open and was supported by the financial aid office, who matched her other offers. They also gave her as many grants as they could. So, no, not all about rich kids. They even gave her winter clothes money and extra $ to fix her teeth that were damaged from falling on ice.
I said at the time of the Supreme court ruling that is was much a much ado about nothing spectacle .. To Jays observation about there not being much of a push back the AF action decision I said at the time of the Supreme court ruling that is was much a much ado about nothing spectacle. 1. Because the schools targeted are extremely selective institutions that only account for very small percentage of college admits . so it wasn't really going to affected the vast majority of students . and 2 the Black and Brown students at places leak Harvard are already outstanding students there on academic merit so the adjustments dictated in the ruling aren't going to forcibly adjust demographics at schools like Harvard in coming years .
1970 Downey California. I was the only Mexicano and my buddy Calvin Chung the only diverse kids from 6th to 9th grade, we brought our food to school, I sold burritos, tacos and he brought Cho mein and egg roles our mains customers were the teachers and the rest for students. Those days, we were in business. Height school meet Steve Kawasaki , he introduced me to Judo and kendo and Japanese American community 2012 to 2018. I worked in Jeffersonvill Indiana, I remember arriving at Louisville Kentucky airport and no taxi drivers would pick me up. I finally meet a Black taxi driver. He told me, out here your a black man. I didn’t understand , well. I got to our new business building and it was raining and I knocked on door, the looked at me as crazy’s. I waited six hours outside and the owners showed up and let them have it. I remember attending Kentucky Aikido school. I was told to sign waiver, if I was to get hurt.. I signed. We practiced which two students were a-holes and I let them have it. The teacher asked how many years you studied aikido ? I said 16 years. Priceless.. I worked in Mishawaka indiana and meet Irish and Italian friends and rember Norte dam church, i asked where are the Mexicanos I didn’t know whites were catholic , culture clash for me, I was raised in Calvery Capel in Downey California. Elkhart indiana I meet irv , he was Amish. He loved Green salsa, I was smuggling it into the community, made great friends. I wanted to chrome the wheels and lower the buggy. Irv said, NO! Louisville Kentucky. I at at local Japanese restaurant which I meet the owner and remember one Sunday we had food from his country :PHO and bubba. He was Vietnamese, I speak Japanese fluently , he was amazed . I told him, you need to open Vietnamese resultant , he said out here they only know Japanese food. He couldnt take that risk. Shepherd Kentucky I remember visiting JIM BEAM and on our way back Siri battery went dead. We were lost, we found this small town with a small resultant , I remember seeing the flag. I said the Dukes of Hazard flag.. I didn’t know the history of confederacy. Louisville Kentucky. Louise and Clark museum I expected to meet American Indians, i was the American indian, everyone wanted to take a picture with them. I am American and my heritage is Mexicano. Frank Martinez Downey California ❤❤❤
I'm white. 4th generation American. My family has generational trauma from the Korean War. Seriously. My grandfather was in an artillery unit in the war. Had pretty bad PTSD from his first tour then got sent back for a second. He drank himself silly for 30 years. I'm the first generation to go to college. I went to a state school. I didn't deserve a spot at MIT because, honestly, I'm not that smart. No one deserves to be excluded because they're not rich or they're the wrong color.
Princeton has made a recent effort to enroll more transfers, including community college students. They are also actively seeking military veterans. This effort is combined with a race-neutral policy of seeking first-generation/low-income students. It's pretty obvious these effort were initiated in anticipation of affirmative action being ruled unconstitutional. We will see if the number of under-represented students remains steady over the next five years.
You're both asking irrelevant questions. The real question is why do the Ivy League universities have the highest graduation rates and why are the GPAs the highest? The answer: They dare not fail or deflate the offspring of the ruling class and their primary benefactors
You CAN have diversity! Why do you think that diversity must come in the form of skin color? There are so many different types of Asians, white and Blacks. We are individuals, not the average of some aggregate based on skin color.
Every university will react by diminishing or completely abandoning objective academic criteria for university admission. This process is already far advanced. The College Board has stopped giving SAT Subject Tests - known as Achievement Tests - which were by far the best way to determine understanding of a subject. In 1995, the SAT-Verbal Aptitude test was recentered upwards, so that a raw score (number of questions right and wrong) that previously yielded a reported score of 730 now yields a score of 800, thus destroying its ability to distinguish between bright and brilliant applicants. The grading of the SAT-Math test was warped in a more complex and bizarre manner. The stated purpose of these changes was to decrease racial/ethnic differences.[1] This mutilation of the SAT occurred at the same time grade inflation made high grades meaningless. In 2020, 47 percent of high school seniors graduated with an “A” average - up from about 39 percent in 1998. At the same time, average SAT scores fell 24 points.
Jay's mention of Canada not using tests? While admittedly it was 40 years ago, I fooled around in undergraduate and would NEVER have been admitted to business school without a 99 percentile GMAT (or close to it). Good thing I was since I met my wife there (she was an arts undergraduate not in B-school)
This is a criticism towards US perceptions with regards to race, not you guys but Asia has more people outside Korea or China (or Sino-Tibetan related countries) then in it. There are a lot of people who are Asian who are quite dark. The word Asian has been co-opted by the Chinese & Korean community in Western countries. I live in a country where non-chinese Asians outnumber Chinese minorities by a factor of 20, yet Chinese dominate the narrative. Why? Because middle class white progressives have narrow ideas about what qualifies as asian, being: 'looking Asian'. You know what that means.
I've never understood why outrage over black under-representation in elite institutions -- and academically overall -- isn't directed (vehemently) at K-12 education.
Michael Young, a British writer/socialist, coined the term meritocracy after the 2nd WW to mock the American fairy tale approach to who deserves what. His point I think was that lucky people who win the awards of life will always claim they deserve those awards. His own fairy tale beliefs in socialist purity aside, I think he nailed it. Donald Trump probably believes he earned the Presidency.
It would be SO MUCH easier to listen to a so-called, "academic", if every other word was NOT "like".... y'all feel me ? 😁 Which is stupid and has no meaning as well.
It's interesting. The country I'm from solved a lot of this by opening a preparatory school for every university ( as well as some designed to focus on the needs of a spasific communits ) . After a year of very instances academic preparation who ever secseded to go through the programme can enter the first year of university ( they even chaked and these students do just as well ) . I know people who went through this with no high school diploma so it's allows a lot of people with motivation but no means to become scolers . I think such a method is far better at uplifting talented people who need a lag up to become good academics then the methods America uses
I agree that affirmative action is not a good solution to counter racial or gender bias. It only could be temporal anyway, if we want to create a precedent that contradicts the common biased view on a race or a gender. Let's say, we know that the institution (university or company) is reluctant to accept a certain race or gender. Then we can stimulate it, for example, with affirmative action. But it could not last forever. And definitely, it is a past due to end it. Still, if we have a for-profit education system it inevitably works for the rich. It will have to accept the most talented and the rest are the rich kids that can pay or their parents can pay. Another problem is sports at the University. It is also a money-generating industry that doesn't care about education or students' health.
So many institutions play a major part of the cast system in this country. That is why they were created in the first place. So you have people fighting to be a part of an oppressive system, instead of dismantling it. The slave wants to be a slave owner. This type of person admires master, and what he has created. When you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.
I feel like affirmative action is one of those things that helps put a band aid on the problem of racism and classicism in the way that our public schools are set up being funded by local taxes and in poorer and non white neighborhoods focused on standardized tests. I feel like the "cultural argument" shouldn't apply in a good public school system. Having parents who are able to be involved in your schooling changing the course of your entire life is messed up. Also, yes. You're right about the Ivies. They are a way to ensure nepotism continues and that the most intelligent and hardworking outsiders feel indebted to the generationally wealthy so they don't rock the boat.
"Having parents who are able to be involved in your schooling changing the course of your entire life is messed up." How do you propose to level that playing field, absent draconian state intervention?
How can one use race as a metric to eliminate race as a metric? It is never a good idea to try to undo any specific historical injustice. The better remedy is to change and install structures that prevent the injustice.
I'm a 1st gen Vietnamese American and I personally don't have any trauma narratives. I was born in the US and grew up like any American kid, except with a Vietnamese/Asian cultural underlay. We weren't rich and needed some govt. assistance initially to get going, but I had a happy childhood and didn't feel like I was lacking in any way. I did grow up listening to stories from my mom about her and our relatives fleeing the country...losing everything, their possessions, their friends, families, identity, culture and going through a harrowing experience, seeking escape and salvation. The confusion and fear of going to an unknown foreign place...the deaths on the boats. But living with them all my life, they never complained, they never claimed victim. They just soldiered on and lived. I admired them all for it and was and am still in awe of what they went through. I'm very grateful for what we have today and still am. I can't speak for them but from what I've seen, I don't think they dwell on the trauma. Dwelling on it can be disabling and possibly the wrong path to go down in life because you focus on the negative instead of the positive.
I appreciate your perspective. The uniqueness to the trauma that Black Americans have experienced is not as immigrants with historical, cultural, linguistic context, but as captive slaves with purposely deleted history, culture, linguistic context. You have a direct lineage and I’m sure an affinity for Vietnamese culture. Having lived in SoCal for nearly 10 years and meeting a lot of people from Vietnam, I sensed the cultural pride. But imagine if Vietnam was gone. Imagine that emptiness you’d feel, even in your home country of America. A massive link to your heritage, your lineage, has evaporated. That’s where we are, now. Black Americans are still trying to understand WHO we are, having only been legally “free” for 59 years. We know what continent we’re from, but not WHERE in that continent. It’s been scrambled from centuries of wars, colonialism and neo-colonialism. Of all the minorities in America, we are the only one who has no outside allies. Today, if Vietnamese Americans are being targeted, it will draw a response from Vietnam and its allies. No different than if Korean, or Indonesian, Japanese Americans experienced being targeted for a various reason. S.Korea, Indonesia, Japan would absolutely launch a geopolitical response. Of all the times Black Americans have been targeted, it took the Soviet Union of all people, to force America’s hand in drafting the Civil Rights Bill of 1964. Not an African country or coalition of African nations. They were silent.
Now, does it mean life is miserable? No! And I do agree at some point we have to say, as you stated, stop dwelling on the negative. There are too many opportunities in America for all, in 2023. I’m a big believer in this, personally. BUT, as a race, we are not there yet. I don’t know what it will take to get there. But we are a psychologically and emotionally damaged race. Most immigrants have very, very little understanding of the psychological impact slavery and Jim Crow did to our thinking patterns. Again, a lot of us are moving forward despite what this country has done to us and how it exploited us for centuries. But unilaterally, we’re not there just yet.
@@ian_fordI'm sorry but Vietnam wouldn't give two shits if Vietnamese Americans were targeted, nor any other Asian country. Asian Americans are not seen as Asian in their eyes, we are western washed. We're good to beg money from and that's about as much as they care. They're most likely thinking - well, that's the cost of going to America, and then go about their day in their own country. Black Americans are not the only displaced persons in the history of mankind, slave or otherwise. Go ask the decendants of black slaves of Muslim empires how they fare being targeted. Oh wait, there aren't many because they had their BALLS CHOPPED OFF. 😬
While you're at it, go ask your fellow Africans why they sold their own because apparently skin folk ain't kin folk.
@@ian_fordI lived in the black caribbean for a few years. The caribbeans, having been slaves and colonial subjects until mid xxc have no sense of trauma or longing for an african past or precaribbean history of their people. They have no hangups about slavery and have strong national and family pride. I remember watching black american movies with them and while they understand black american experience, they dont share the resentment.
@@ian_fordnow explain why American blacks were doing infinitely better in 1965 than they are today ?
You are bellyaching about something you can never fix
Worry about lack of school choice
Defund the police which has 8x as many American blacks oppose as support
The achievement gap being largest in the most left-wing cities
The bottom 90% of Americans have gotten steadily poorer since 1971
Open borders driving down wages and driving up housing prices among many other negative externalities
Insane amounts of QE since 2008 that have driven up house prices incredibly
.welfare policy that has subsidized illegitimacy incredibly for nigh 60 years
@@ian_ford. Voluminously worded competition for “the most victimized” ..is ON!
The point was that if you hang onto traumas that you personally didn’t suffer, you are hurting yourself on your progress. But that’s YOUR responsibility and your choice…. This should NOT be born by anyone else or any society. You want to carry it as your cross, then the consequences are yours.
We all have a story. ( I guarantee all families have a UNIQUE history as slaves because that’s what happened when you lost a fight with the neighboring tribe. It’s human history.)
Weird coincidence. I'm currently reading Kang's book The Loneliest Americans. Just started chapter 4 and I barely can put it down to listen to this podcast. It's an awesome book.
Being married into an Asian family, and seeing the interaction between multiple different Asian families... There does seem to be a fairly cultural aspect of family unity, putting the children first, pushing and supporting education, and the idea of holding their children accountable...Dumping money into the school system will only accomplish the spending of more money. To improve our education system, we need to create an American culture of parents pushing and supporting education from home!
Well, a lot of the school today is malarkey. No fundamental ideas taught, only flash card type answer responses to questions, without centric focus on the student and the understanding they know what they’re talking about, schools teach more about being institutionalized into a work environment that requires a scheduled arrival and an unquestionable agreement with what they’re doing while they’re there.
Everyone SAYS they value education and support education. But they don't. Not really. Not the same as some immigrant groups, it's not just asian immigrant groups. They aren't willing to make the same sort of sacrifices, they aren't willing to put their kids through the same struggle.
Shhhhhh! You can’t say that! You’re going to get called racist.
I barely even graduated highschool but I read and learn a lot on my own. I run into uni students at the book store and my god the culture is so bizarre. They lack the most basic comprehension skills.
Like, they always want censored versions of ancient poetry or philosophy.. In some cases the censoring of gendered language just completely disregards the entire point of reading anything to begin with. It's gross and very communist
The janitors in Asia are Asian you are talking about immigrants to the US who go through a difficult filtering process.
I find it funny that when Jay Caspian Kang wanted to know what Asian students thought of being discriminated against during the admittance process he asked the Asians that got admitted to Harvard. You're asking only the defendants that were acquitted what they think of the Justice System!
Go ask the Asians that had the grades and aptitude to go to and succeed at Harvard but who instead had to go to the University of Michigan what they think! Go ask the Asians that should have got into the University of Michigan but were instead admitted to Michigan State what they think.
I also find it suspect that white people aren't broken out into component ethnicities, like the dog that didn't bark. I imagine if certain 'white' groups weren't being over-represented we would here about it if only to show it wasn't taking place.
Why need you mention white at all? This is about how Asians are affected?
University of Michigan? Don't you think more likely some other Ivy or Stanford or Chicago or Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Berkeley or UVA or Tulane or Johns Hopkins?
@@SEAsiaTraveler Or maybe, just maybe those other ivy leagues also have some versions of discriminative admission? The supreme court decision affected every single school you referred to....
@@frankxu4795 The crown of victimhood is blinding you to reality.
Maybe Jay Caspian Kang could ask Asians, with those top test scores and nothing else, why 35% of Asians drop out of community college....look it up..
If I were wealthy and with college age kids, I wouldn't want them to attend Harvard or any of the other Ivy + schools. I'd rather not spend massive amounts of money on an institution intent on teaching them to hate the system that made me rich--or thinking they can atone for their privilege through Maoist struggle sessions and scattershot activism. I wouldn't want that kind of headache in my life. Perhaps there will come a time when admissions and donations will tail off, and these institutions, having alienated their core clientele, will have to adapt or die.
I think the idea is that it's an opportunity to become friends with whatever awful human we'll elect to the Presidency in 30-40 years.
The donations are too good for institutions to bypass. The desire for monetary prosperity has long surpassed moral platitudes about doing what’s ethical. I’m not that optimistic that they will course correct on their own accord. At least not without a cataclysmic event or scandal occurring that rocks the foundation of education system.
Exactly, I really don’t understand it.
I was a little surprised to hear Kang say (beginning about 16:35) he found it offensive that admissions officers thought Asian and Latino students were there, in his words, to "perform cultural theater" for white kids. That was always the explicit rationale for affirmative action, that it was necessary to garner the benefits of "diversity," which were exposure to varied cultures.
Are we gonna be consistent and persue the removal of legacy admissions? There's no merit on those either
Very informative, thank you.
If Asian Americans identify more closely with African Americans that whites as their allies, then the DNC has done an excellent job. I identify with people who have similar values and ethics and could care less about skin color. I identify more with Loury than say Krugman. Why would anyone want to group themselves according to skin color? It is shallow and unfulfilling with what we share.
Careful...the woke are now telling us now that colorblindness is racism. What a toxic ideology wokeness is!
Excellent Very informative and provocative points WOW !!
Please do more about these topics.
I’m so curious as to why affirmative action was focused on before legacy admission; is it fair to say that the least advantages was focused on before the privileged? I hope as I watch they discuss it
You know why.
The principal benefit of a Harvard degree is never again having to be impressed by anyone with a Harvard degree. -Thomas Sowell.
I remember Jay Kang from CHHS, good to see you again still speaking out just like the student paper back then.. Go tigers lol
Glenn, you cited Lee and Zhou's wonderful book The Asian American Achievement Paradox, and I think the authors would push back to your general labeling of their book as a cultural argument. Their's is more of a cultural capital theory argument or a class-based cultural access argument. They are actually very critical of what they call "cultural essentialists" who make facile appeals to Asian values as the source of the Asian American achievement gap. Their cultural capital theory argument relies on the Asian selective immigration in the post-1965 epoch, parenting practices, and what they call the Asian American Success Frame with all providing a class-based mechanism that fuels Asian American achievement. I think they would take offense as being labeled a values argument. Their analytical model relies on social causation, with culture only serving as the lapdog of class privilege by way of parent's educational background.
Read " Excellent Sheep " by
William Deresiewicz
For the thesis explaining why no good parent should ever want to have their kids attend elite US universities
"The darkest Asian" bro I lived and loved in Hawaii for 12.5 years - yer not even in the 50th percentile 🤣
Jay needs to be read in on the CCP. He’s expressing a surprisingly naive (disingenuously so?) worldview on all things related to the Communisy State in China.
Every Black person whom I know who graduated from Harvard, MIT, and Yale were smart and talented. They were not known to have been rich kids.
Jay is OK, but he is still caught up in the Socialist class thing. Wealthy people are Americans too, and they do not deserve, in a zero-sum game, discrimination. If they show promise that they may best be able to do Nobel-Prize-winning research and contribute to humanity, why should they be barred from a place where they can be nurtured to give it a go?
Disagree
@@safetythirdified Crafting grievances is not limited to rich kids. Two-thirds of Harvard's black kids are middle class, upper class, or foreign-born. Grievance essays can be gotten free on the Internet; it won't take long before ChatGPT can write grievance essays for you.
Dear god… When did anyone say that rich genius kids should be kept out? Never.
@@DerrickSeaborne Great argument .. .
@@jimpollard113 wasn't making one
Harvard applications = 42,749 Accepted = 1,962. 4.5%
Arizona State U applications = 68,705 Accepted = 61,664 89%
Hi can you have a conversation with Vivek Ramaswamy? He's a rising Presidential candidate
what's up with Nikita Petrov? Haven't seen you two talking in a while.
1:04 to skip intro
20% of students are rich foreign students pay big $$$$ to get in.
No. And no predict wind
Sad to see a generation of students, including many Asians student, take on the victimhood mentality.
Major businesses / companies in the US are taking measures to decouple from China. There is a deep rooted political will to do so also. The kingpin in all of this is Taiwan (think semiconductors). US and US businesses are taking measures to mitigate the dependence on China and Taiwan (strategically). It is happening behind the scenes and it is happening. Any doubters should focus on the recent growth of India and Mexico in these tech sector spaces...as well as the US itself.
it's bigger than harvard .. the top 5 schools (harvard yale princeton columbia stanford) have monopolized our politics courts media corporations & finance for the last 40 years ...
I can appreciate Kang’s impetus to question the existence of schools like Harvard (as opposed to systems elsewhere in the world) but how do you get rid or drastically change institutions that been around for hundreds of years? Furthermore elitism and elite institutions will always rise up, even in a place like Canada…think McGill. It seems to me that effort needs to be put on how do we push places like Harvard to really foster economic diversity…but Harvard represents American values and at core in this society is a hard wired belief in hierarchy and attempts to destroy that hierarchy are eventually rebuffed
McGill is a good university that lives on an exaggerated reputation constructed by rich American elites (who couldn't get their dumber kids into the Ivy League). Ask a Canadian or other international person -- who isn't a McGill alum, of course -- whether McGill deserves the reputation rich Americans fabricated for McGill
1:00:39 It's also not good if the only qualification of the black students is that they're black.
Harvard is a Private university.
Algorithm
Lol did this man really say there is no cultural similarity between chinese and korean culture?
What are the similarities?
@@burnt_owl Collectivism, rigid social hierarchy, honor culture that emphasizes maintaining face, etc.
Yes, just like there are no cultural similarities between the British and Americans or Canadians and Americans
@@heathmckenzie6875 all those apply to various African and middle eastern cultures as well.
@@burnt_owl en... everything?
The idea that nations were too economically interdependent to go to war was popular before WW1 as well. People who do not think China and the US can decouple need to ask themselves what they think will happen to US-China trade if say a conflict over Taiwan happens. When the bullets start flying the trade is going to stop.
This is the fellow that conducted that infamously dishonest interview of Jordan Peterson for Vice about five years ago, and then clipped it to have him saying the opposite of what he actually said in the interview.
Yes, working for Vice news.
Why do they think they deserve to go just cause they are black and Korean 😂
I knew he looked and sounded familiar!
I remember my employer was actively searching for a VP role one time. One man was eventually selected after numerous interviews out of a list of all male candidates. HR was supposed to send him an offer but they received one late submission from a female, so they rushed to interview her out of the need for diversity. In the end, she decided to back out of the process due to personal reasons and the selected candidate took a position elsewhere.
Sexism and racism is very rampant in Human Resources these days thanks to the DEI ideology.
This isn't about DEI - it's about not being sued for discrimination. DEI is a cancer on college campuses, but sex based discrimination isn't allowed under the law. You're just hearing about more of this lately b/c the law is starting to be enforced.
> "Why do they accept the existence of the Ivy League?" Let me suggest that the reason "they" accept the Ivy League is that the people doing the public discussion went to elite colleges, and this background was an essential credential for getting into the "public opinion" career track. I won't suggest that the people on that track deliberately work to entrench their own privilege for selfish reasons. But I do think they honestly believe that they've "earned" their position by dint of hard work to get into these colleges, generally following up with graduate degrees, and that this is a good and just way to select society's elites. The idea that a person with a high school diploma, or maybe a Bachelor's degree from an obscure college, should be considered for elite positions must seem slightly ridiculous.
Edited to add: So, a question for Jay: If you someday get in the position of hiring journalists for your prestigious publication, would you ignore the educational background of an applicant, and look only for writing talent and dogged journalistic dedication to the truth? Or would you look more favorably on the applicant with a Bachelor's degree from Yale and a Master's degree from the Columbia School of Journalism?
Edited again to add: The elite credentialism just goes on. I just found out about a program run by the National Math and Science Initiative - the STEM to the Stars program. The program is intended "to inspire, educate and celebrate the wonders of STEM, space exploration and the history of human spaceflight", with an emphasis on reaching students. The program is open to the public, which is wonderful. It's being held on Martha's Vineyard. Who is this intended to reach? Obviously, the children of people who vacation on Martha's Vineyard. If the objective is to inspire a broad range of young people to study STEM fields and reach for careers in science, technology, and aerospace, why not put the event in New York? Or Boston? Or Philadelphia? Or Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles, or even Lexington, MA or Princeton, NJ? This event is a caricature of the privileged elites propagating the next generation of privileged elites from the children of today's privileged elites.
Well said.
Jay noticed that the SFFA decision didn't seem to generate the public outrage that he expected. I think there are a couple of reasons.
-Glenn mentioned opinion surveys showing significant chunks of the population have turned against affirmative action.
-Glenn also mentioned the fact that such small number of schools are actually affected (less than 10% of all 4 year schools in the US)
-Another reason that Glenn didn't mention is that American Descendants of Slaves (ADOS) for whom affirmative action was created, likely realize that the program is not working for them and hasn't worked for them for a couple of decades. Upwards of 2/3 of the listed "black" students at selective colleges are either immigrants or children of immigrants from Africa/Caribbean or biracial. ADOS will not take to the streets to defend a program from which they largely do not benefit.
I laughed at Jay's suggestion that his role at a selective college was to bring the kimchi. Liberal white college administrators tend to think of their diversity initiatives as some kind of multicultural potluck. The Korean kid brings the kimchi, the Mexican brings the tamales, the black kid brings the soul food . . .
I feel like most Americans give up on the idea that they could ever get into an elite school by the time they are 14, and don't realize how many people are just as intelligent as people who get into elite schools or how much of a huge difference in your future getting into one of these schools vs not getting into another school changes the outcome of your life.
Tamales with kimchi and collard greens sound pretty good to me. ;)
Though I also laughed about the kimchi line; I was a bit taken aback by his suggestion that as a minority we "play" our culture. That was offensive. As if we need to hide who we are to fit in with the dominant culture.
No, you're not required to "bring kimchi to the potluck," but if you eat kimchi, eat your kimchi unashamed. Not to eat it would be "playing."
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11
49:06 I'm a white boy from the South. Yes, THAT South. I cannot understand how/why anyone in America might decide to take out his anger toward China, another country which isn't nearby, on random Asian people on the streets of America. In what way does that make a single bit of sense? I DO NOT like the use of the possibility of this sort of nonsensical backlash as some sort of reason to not handle China with the strong treatment it may deserve. China's way is not and MUST NOT be the American way. We must be strong on China. We must not take out our frustration with China on random Asians, including most Chinese in China.
Pure common sense and decency.
Where I see there greatest lack of diversity in the current university system, is in diversity of thought. I do NOT believe that it is in the best interest of (true) education, or in society itself to teach ideology as undeniable truth, as is currently (obviously) being done... This includes, but goes well beyond identity politics.
Jay, why do women wear makeup?
5 years later, have an answer?
Interesting point about generational trauma as Cambodians came her during a genocide, Vietnamese during a civil war. How far back can we go. Irish came here on a slow boat during a famine, Germans during the holocaust, the founders during a religious persecution. Is there a group that came here from a country in large numbers when everyone was fat and happy?
Actually the bulk Germans--the largest immigrant group to the US--came long before that. Latter 19th century. FWIW, to be factual, very few Cambodians got out during the KR period; the refugees were fleeing the Vietnamese occupation and Civil War of the entire decade of 1980s. (Cambodians really, really don't like Vietnamese.)
Similarly, the 20-year-long history of the Vietnamese exodus was after full occupation by the North. Yes, for sure, many fleeing conscription and fighting in Cambodia, but mostly fleeing starvation, political & religious persecution and deepening poverty.
Nonetheless, 40% of legal immigrants arriving in US in recent decades already have college degrees. These are not your grandparents' immigrants. Mainland Chinese, Taiwanese, Indians and Filipinos are not fleeing poverty or war. Neither are Koreans, for that matter. They could have a comfortable life at home but are climbing the economic ladder. Look up their per capita or household income. True too of all the Russians who immigrated in the 1990s. Jewish ones.had their worries, of course, but were not fleeing war.
Odd to imply Germans were the victims of the Holocaust.
Exactly!
When for decades girls and women "underperformed" in math the idea that schools should only teach to the female level never came up. Even though they made up 50% of classroom enrollment and came from completely diverse backgrounds. What they did was reach out to female students and help them succeed.
Why is it different now?
What seems to count now is the soft bigotry of low expectations, participation in the Olympics of victimhood, points for the highest “traumatic experience”. Admission parameters devoid of actual knowledge evaluation and racist and divisive to the core I might add. “E pluribus Unum” has been substituted by “Divide and conquer“
the difference is it's targeted to help whites.....
I just noticed that Glenn asked Kang about the impact of culture on academic achievement. Kang talked briefly about Asians vs. whites but never got around to blacks and Latinos, which is where the real problem lies. I guess Jay's progressivism wont let him go down that road.
Because once you realize the depth of the problem, the solutions required are politically untenable.
@@Razaiel what are the problems iuo
That there are inherent differences between groups of people & that no amount of social engineering will level that playing field.
@@Razaiel there are certainly cultural differences in terms of how much a given group emphasizes education and spend time on it. Whether those differences are "inherent" is debatable.
@@sandrastewart7544 if you are asking a serious question just look at the racial achievement gaps in K-12 education. There's clearly a huge problem right there.
what a great discussion. Needs more views!!! There are many different kinds of asians in the world and treating them as a monolithic group is unacceptable.
Same with other identity categories
I found Jay's assessment of US/China relations so shallow, essentially saying that our dependence is "too big to interrupt."
He’s Asian. What do you expect?
It's wishful thinking imho. The lunatic chest-thumping by US politicians to go to war with China for economic reasons is quite frightening. For one it is dishonest and for 2 China will be a harder nut to crack than Japan in the 1980s
His ethnicity isn't what drives his reluctance to divest from China, its his class. He's a wealthy liberal who would rather outsource pollution to another country so that he can get cheap consumer goods while at the same time thinking that he's saving the planet.
@ricardowilliams3122 First and foremost he's Asian ,he's conflicted😂
The all-white discussion of affirmative action might very well have raised the similar question, "How would our discussion be different if there happened to be black students here?" Not all white people think alike.
I am very torn by this subject because I'm "white," whatever that means, but if you look at me, I'm brown 'cause of Native American and other things in the past, but I just applied as a white kid but from a place in the country that, let's just say, doesn't produce many students who go to elite schools. I 100% wanted (and would still want) to attend a diverse university just because I'd like to be exposed to different viewpoints (and I went before this woke stuff, so that wasn't a thing then), but I can say this. Of all the minorities that benefited from affirmative action, all of them were from way wealthier families than mine, and I know that as a fact. Now, we were surrounded by minorities in the city who were struggling in many ways, but I was probably closer to those people in terms of economics than my "minority" colleagues were, except by ethnicity, which, ok, I realize is a thing, but it wasn't helping poor people.
YES! THANK YOU! I have been saying for years that this whole, "List your traumas before you speak" BS is completely horrifying for anyone who has endured actual, real hardship. It's freaking humiliating, and a way of reminding us of our place. It IS disgusting, and I can't stand it. I'm sure it's a lot of fun for people playing pretend (as a lover of the theatre, yes, there is something to be said for the catharsis of acting--when you know that's what you're doing!), but it's a disgusting practice when it's a requirement before any major effort, like applying for college or a job.
This is called the baring of wounds.
I've noticed this same methodology on Americas' Got Talent etc. I find myself saying .... shut up and sing already.
Very interesting discussion. Thanks to Glenn and Jay!
Interesting dismissal by Jay of the Asian-majority population in Hawaii. I'm white, lived there for grad school, and appreciated the clearly minority experience.
Wait, so what the lady with the Hispanic name was upset by was that she was mistaken for a daughter of poor people? Or for being assumed to have been accepted based on AA? So her argument was that AA is good because......what? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this 🤦♀️ The only point she made was that some people were bigoted against her or minorities in general. But how does that translate to affirmative action being a net positive OR negative 🤔
That particular student doesn’t come across as ver smart or logical in her thinking.
Both gentlemen are brilliant and insightful. I learned many things. Glenn is much more articulate than the younger man. Glenn is a fantastic interviewer. So many young people are very bright but cannot speak well. Their talk is filled with junk words such as ‘you know’ and ‘like’. These junk terms are confusing and interrupt the discussion. I fear it is a pandemic among younger Americans. I hope all Americans Wil listen to older more articulate and say so much with an economy of words.
Glenn is a professor at Brown and Jay is a journalist who has become a public intellectual because he takes research and analysis seriously. I believe thinking clearly and rigorously is a more urgent and critical standard than the commonness of filler words.
The dumbing down of the curriculum so that students won't feel bad because they don't consider themselves "math students" is absolutely ludicrous. If anything, there needs to be more rigorous outlets for the truly gifted students.
I envision a future where teachers will be replaced by AI and each student will have a curriculum crafted specifically for him/her.
The "dumb kids" would be prescribed a curriculum that starts easy but be more intensive time-wise so that they can advance and maybe catch up eventually. If this means they spend less time on shit like social studies and Phys Ed, then so be it.
The major problem I have with discussions like this, is that ANY time a Leftwing institution is shown to be fundamentally flawed (in this case, racist), everyone IMMEDIATELY pivots to MORE Leftwing talking points in an attempt to deflect responsibility from the problem.
An elite Leftwing university like Harvard is racist? Well, it's just the rich bourgeoisie using "acceptable" diversity as a shield to keep the poor AND the "real" minorities out.
Jay (who seems nice enough), even said his "ah ha!" moment was realizing it was all about the RICH kids...but did he ever analyze deeper and ask if it was MERELY rich kids, or rich kids of a certain political background? Or rich kids from specific geographical regions? Or a whole host of OTHER factors in addition to the wealth (or being excluded from the privileged wealthy by some factor)?
22:30 People have been SO propagandized to be worried about POTENTIAL "backlash" against "racial solidarity" (aka racial supremacy), that they are WILLING to accept contemporary and active racist policies against themselves.
Then you see a narrative around some cabal of white people "using" Asians as a "model minority," all the while the Left is convincing Asians to accept discrimination in order to further the goals of the racialized Left. The first idea is at least based on the truth of Asian achievement, the second, is nothing more than an emotional appeal and an appeal to "racial solidarity" (aka racial supremacy) to a race the Asians don't even belong to. It's nuts that people accept this.
1:04:00 I think the weakness with the Academy "carve-out" is that the Academies aren't the only commissioning source. You could very easily see ROTC detachements (especially at HBCUs) and OTS "making-up the difference" to keep the officer corps "racially balanced." I don't necessarily disagree with his logic, but I find the racial discrimination objectionable, and there is a flaw in his argument. That logic would also extend to sex, where women would actually (likely, I haven't seen the stats) be deprioritized, as they make up a disproportionately LOW number of enlistees compared to officers (i.e. if you are a woman in the military, you're more likely to be an officer in proportion to the total number of personnel in the military).
1:11:30 Because those are the people in control of those institutions...it benefits them.
Glenn has a Bernie voter on. Gotta love the diversity of thought on the Glenn Show.
As a non-Bernie voter, I agree.
@@elizabethmartinez4086 Yep👍🏻
Why do these universities, which almost universally have huge endowments, even charge tuition? If economics were taken out of the equation, they could admit anyone they wanted to. It would also be interesting to see what the makeup of these campuses would be if they could admit anyone they wanted.
Glenn -- your show is becoming an echo chamber, you seem to only have host on who agree with your world view. You play a hell of a Devils Advocate but it would be valuable to have a longer dialogue with a good faith, smart, reasonable person who has legitimate and well thought through arguments that counter the status-quo of your show.
Signed a long time listener and fan who happens to agree with you 98% of the time.
There are so few right leaning echo chambers of this high of quality out there in the media that I give Glenn a pass. I doubt he wants to spend his old age arguing. I learn a ton on this podcast as it is. The argument that you are making to Glenn would be better pled to the producers at The View. Whoopi turned that show into a toxic echo chamber that is now a complete mess. Barbara Walters would not be proud.
There is a clear benefit from being a victim and this victim virtue has overtaken merit in many of today's institutions of learning. This is the result of convincing so many people that they are victims while simultaneously converting the hard work of many into privilege.
Sorry can’t take this show seriously, it is promoted by the Manhattan institute: which promoted Charles Murray author of the Bell curve, so every thing on this channel you have to take with a grain of salt due to the biased views.
It was refreshing to hear some pushback on the laziness of the term Asian to include the handful of ethnicities in Eastern Asia, which get lumped together for the sake of identity politics. I can speak on point to explain why some "Asians' by which I use the term as it more than often implies, Han Chinese, might be in favor of continuing with the present AA policies. A significant number of Han Chinese abide by racial hierarchies. They prefer to be admitted into an elite school which is regarded as exclusive and a bastion of old money whites. In their mind, the value of a Harvard diploma would drop down if it became a school with an overwhelming percentage of "Asians'. If they wanted to attend a university with a majority Han Chinese population, they would not have had to leave the PRC
My daughter got a full ride at H 24 years ago. And was encouraged to apply to Numerous schools and keep her options open and was supported by the financial aid office, who matched her other offers. They also gave her as many grants as they could. So, no, not all about rich kids. They even gave her winter clothes money and extra $ to fix her teeth that were damaged from falling on ice.
And we’re as pasty faced as can be, if you ignore our Irishness.
I said at the time of the Supreme court ruling that is was much a much ado about nothing spectacle .. To Jays observation about there not being much of a push back the AF action decision I said at the time of the Supreme court ruling that is was much a much ado about nothing spectacle. 1. Because the schools targeted are extremely selective institutions that only account for very small percentage of college admits . so it wasn't really going to affected the vast majority of students . and 2 the Black and Brown students at places leak Harvard are already outstanding students there on academic merit so the adjustments dictated in the ruling aren't going to forcibly adjust demographics at schools like Harvard in coming years .
How does this guy know what the admissions department is doing?
1970 Downey California. I was the only Mexicano and my buddy Calvin Chung the only diverse kids from 6th to 9th grade, we brought our food to school, I sold burritos, tacos and he brought Cho mein and egg roles our mains customers were the teachers and the rest for students. Those days, we were in business. Height school meet Steve Kawasaki , he introduced me to Judo and kendo and Japanese American community 2012 to 2018. I worked in Jeffersonvill Indiana, I remember arriving at Louisville Kentucky airport and no taxi drivers would pick me up. I finally meet a Black taxi driver. He told me, out here your a black man. I didn’t understand , well. I got to our new business building and it was raining and I knocked on door, the looked at me as crazy’s. I waited six hours outside and the owners showed up and let them have it. I remember attending Kentucky Aikido school. I was told to sign waiver, if I was to get hurt.. I signed. We practiced which two students were a-holes and I let them have it. The teacher asked how many years you studied aikido ? I said 16 years. Priceless.. I worked in Mishawaka indiana and meet Irish and Italian friends and rember Norte dam church, i asked where are the Mexicanos I didn’t know whites were catholic , culture clash for me, I was raised in Calvery Capel in Downey California. Elkhart indiana I meet irv , he was Amish. He loved Green salsa, I was smuggling it into the community, made great friends. I wanted to chrome the wheels and lower the buggy. Irv said, NO! Louisville Kentucky. I at at local Japanese restaurant which I meet the owner and remember one Sunday we had food from his country :PHO and bubba. He was Vietnamese, I speak Japanese fluently , he was amazed . I told him, you need to open Vietnamese resultant , he said out here they only know Japanese food. He couldnt take that risk. Shepherd Kentucky I remember visiting JIM BEAM and on our way back Siri battery went dead. We were lost, we found this small town with a small resultant , I remember seeing the flag. I said the Dukes of Hazard flag.. I didn’t know the history of confederacy.
Louisville Kentucky. Louise and Clark museum I expected to meet American Indians, i was the American indian, everyone wanted to take a picture with them. I am
American and my heritage is Mexicano. Frank Martinez Downey California ❤❤❤
Downey--the town that spawned the Blasters!
I'm white. 4th generation American. My family has generational trauma from the Korean War. Seriously. My grandfather was in an artillery unit in the war. Had pretty bad PTSD from his first tour then got sent back for a second. He drank himself silly for 30 years. I'm the first generation to go to college. I went to a state school. I didn't deserve a spot at MIT because, honestly, I'm not that smart. No one deserves to be excluded because they're not rich or they're the wrong color.
Princeton has made a recent effort to enroll more transfers, including community college students. They are also actively seeking military veterans. This effort is combined with a race-neutral policy of seeking first-generation/low-income students. It's pretty obvious these effort were initiated in anticipation of affirmative action being ruled unconstitutional. We will see if the number of under-represented students remains steady over the next five years.
> under-represented students
Under-represented relative to commie equality?
I think we're asking the wrong question, it shouldn't be how many are admitted but rather how many graduate. Isn't that the end goal?
It's not even, how many graduate. It's how many graduate with the degree they started with.
You're both asking irrelevant questions. The real question is why do the Ivy League universities have the highest graduation rates and why are the GPAs the highest? The answer: They dare not fail or deflate the offspring of the ruling class and their primary benefactors
You CAN have diversity! Why do you think that diversity must come in the form of skin color? There are so many different types of Asians, white and Blacks. We are individuals, not the average of some aggregate based on skin color.
You capitalize black but not white? Which style guide do you use?
@@cablenewsfanatic5634 The PC style guide!
@@vanities7374 Ahhh ok..I thought that you were going to say the implicit bias style guide 😀
Great interview!
The reason why no mass demonstrations is simply that most folks know how unfair affirmative action is.
I believe that America can slowly transition toward other trading partners.
I agree with you. The statement that "we can't decouple from China" was silly. Ido agree this takes time.
45 minutes in, a question for Jonathan Haidt. Thank you both Jay and Glenn, great conversation. Peace
Nowadays you have to get your "diversity card" punched.
Every university will react by diminishing or completely abandoning objective academic criteria for university admission.
This process is already far advanced. The College Board has stopped giving SAT Subject Tests - known as Achievement Tests - which were by far the best way to determine understanding of a subject. In 1995, the SAT-Verbal Aptitude test was recentered upwards, so that a raw score (number of questions right and wrong) that previously yielded a reported score of 730 now yields a score of 800, thus destroying its ability to distinguish between bright and brilliant applicants. The grading of the SAT-Math test was warped in a more complex and bizarre manner. The stated purpose of these changes was to decrease racial/ethnic differences.[1]
This mutilation of the SAT occurred at the same time grade inflation made high grades meaningless. In 2020, 47 percent of high school seniors graduated with an “A” average - up from about 39 percent in 1998. At the same time, average SAT scores fell 24 points.
Jay's mention of Canada not using tests? While admittedly it was 40 years ago, I fooled around in undergraduate and would NEVER have been admitted to business school without a 99 percentile GMAT (or close to it). Good thing I was since I met my wife there (she was an arts undergraduate not in B-school)
This is a criticism towards US perceptions with regards to race, not you guys but Asia has more people outside Korea or China (or Sino-Tibetan related countries) then in it.
There are a lot of people who are Asian who are quite dark.
The word Asian has been co-opted by the Chinese & Korean community in Western countries. I live in a country where non-chinese Asians outnumber Chinese minorities by a factor of 20, yet Chinese dominate the narrative.
Why? Because middle class white progressives have narrow ideas about what qualifies as asian, being: 'looking Asian'. You know what that means.
4:45 " Journalists are objective in the way they cover it"
LOL.... HUGE blind spot there. Journalists these days don't have a clue about objectivity.
I've never understood why outrage over black under-representation in elite institutions -- and academically overall -- isn't directed (vehemently) at K-12 education.
Michael Young, a British writer/socialist, coined the term meritocracy after the 2nd WW to mock the American fairy tale approach to who deserves what. His point I think was that lucky people who win the awards of life will always claim they deserve those awards. His own fairy tale beliefs in socialist purity aside, I think he nailed it. Donald Trump probably believes he earned the Presidency.
Bobby Lee. Tigerbelly podcast. First Asian korean supported by Mexicano comedians Today, He is big in Los Angeles Frank Martinez Downey California ❤❤❤
It would be SO MUCH easier to listen to a so-called, "academic", if every other word was NOT "like"....
y'all feel me ? 😁 Which is stupid and has no meaning as well.
It's interesting. The country I'm from solved a lot of this by opening a preparatory school for every university ( as well as some designed to focus on the needs of a spasific communits ) . After a year of very instances academic preparation who ever secseded to go through the programme can enter the first year of university ( they even chaked and these students do just as well ) . I know people who went through this with no high school diploma so it's allows a lot of people with motivation but no means to become scolers . I think such a method is far better at uplifting talented people who need a lag up to become good academics then the methods America uses
I agree that affirmative action is not a good solution to counter racial or gender bias. It only could be temporal anyway, if we want to create a precedent that contradicts the common biased view on a race or a gender. Let's say, we know that the institution (university or company) is reluctant to accept a certain race or gender. Then we can stimulate it, for example, with affirmative action. But it could not last forever. And definitely, it is a past due to end it.
Still, if we have a for-profit education system it inevitably works for the rich. It will have to accept the most talented and the rest are the rich kids that can pay or their parents can pay.
Another problem is sports at the University. It is also a money-generating industry that doesn't care about education or students' health.
So many institutions play a major part of the cast system in this country. That is why they were created in the first place.
So you have people fighting to be a part of an oppressive system, instead of dismantling it.
The slave wants to be a slave owner. This type of person admires master, and what he has created.
When you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.
Glenn. I think you have been the same guy. The Overton window shifts....
I feel like affirmative action is one of those things that helps put a band aid on the problem of racism and classicism in the way that our public schools are set up being funded by local taxes and in poorer and non white neighborhoods focused on standardized tests. I feel like the "cultural argument" shouldn't apply in a good public school system. Having parents who are able to be involved in your schooling changing the course of your entire life is messed up. Also, yes. You're right about the Ivies. They are a way to ensure nepotism continues and that the most intelligent and hardworking outsiders feel indebted to the generationally wealthy so they don't rock the boat.
"Having parents who are able to be involved in your schooling changing the course of your entire life is messed up."
How do you propose to level that playing field, absent draconian state intervention?
I agree with Jay. It’s offensive to have to cry the racism story in your essay to get into Harvard. Despicable
How can one use race as a metric to eliminate race as a metric? It is never a good idea to try to undo any specific historical injustice. The better remedy is to change and install structures that prevent the injustice.
Harvard is destroying their prestige, in several ways. Their brand is failing.
He voted for Bernie Sanders - enough said. He's a poor communicator as well.
Jay is just not intellectually on par with Glenn….. too many weak points in his arguments…
It’s a great interview until the 43rd time he said the word right the first 10 minutes then I had enough
Focusing on their demands is exhausting!!!
Oh, Kang is who interviewed Jordan Peterson on Vice
14:50 to 16:18 - What Harvard is really about.
Note to Jay: stop saying "right?" as punctuation.
Skirt….skirt😂😂😂😂 36:01
50:50 facts homie
Poor irish catholic