Would You Back Apprentice Doctors For Radical NHS Plan?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- Tens of thousands of doctors and nurses will be able to train on the job under plans to tackle NHS workforce shortages.
It is expected that the much-anticipated NHS workforce plan will see the number of medics trained via the apprenticeship route ramped up significantly.
Vanessa Feltz is joined by Dr Saleyha Ahsan who is an A&E doctor, and Nick Hillman from the Higher Educattion Policy Institute.
Up to one in 10 doctors and a third of nurses could be trained this way in coming years, the PA news agency understands.
It comes as the head of the NHS encouraged school-leavers to “earn while they learn” through NHS apprenticeship schemes.
As a doctor who has been practising for 35 years, this proposal concerns me. It is absolutely fundamental to have a thorough grounding in anatomy, physiology and biochemistry before you can begin to consider pathological processes and their management. That takes time - several years of diligent study, preferably guided by first rate teachers. Having worked as a doctor for a lifetime, I do not consider myself even now as "trained". The learning process never ends.
And they will do as they attend medical school and complete the same degree.
@@Simulacra719how can they if are on the wards from day 1 without the daily lectures and tutorials ?
I disagree. I too am a doctor although I qualified in 2017 and have been practising since then. I don’t think that what we learnt in medical school was hugely relevant to clinical practice, the vast majority of the knowledge and skills that we acquire are acquired through ‘on the job’ training. I don’t think the people training via this route will be any less competent than those who trained via the conventional route. However, I do think that the people who train via the apprenticeship route will struggle to get their licence recognised in other countries and hence, will have to work in the NHS. Hence, I would caution anyone considering this option.
@@were455 tell me how when they have the same qualifications as those who just go through the traditional med school-only route? They have to complete a GMC-accredited degree from a GMC-approved HEI. How are they less qualified?
@@Simulacra719 I am not saying they are less qualified. They are going to be just as competent as someone who went via the traditional route and they will become competent consultants just like anyone else. However, what I am saying is that I don’t think these people will be able to get their qualifications recognised in another country. In order to work as a doctor in a foreign country you have to show evidence of your MBBS degree. These medical apprentices will not be able to evidence this and this will preclude them from being able to work abroad. If you chose to train via this route, you are probably signing yourself up for a lifetime of service in the UK only. This is purely my suspicion and I would advise anyone who is planning on training via this route to bear this in mind.
This scheme will actually drain front line resource because trained doctors will be spending time training and supervising these apprentices. Everyone who works in business knows that experienced staff need to supervise untrained staff and that takes time. The more untrained and inexperienced the new staff member the more supervision they need.
I really do think this will cause more trained doctors to leave the NHS.
Incidentally, while they were pulling medical students into wards during Covid they were telling my highly skilled consultant surgeon friend he was not allowed to do operations. As a result, he has now left the NHS and works overseas. The NHS has lost someone with extremely rare skills and the student medics he used to teach have also lost the opportunity to be taught by someone with advanced cutting edge skills.
What about ACPs, Experienced Advanced Paramedics, Nurses, Physiotherapists who decided to go further and wanted to become doctors? They already have enormous experience in specific areas of medicine. Why are they forced to go through medicine courses from the very start? there should be a bridging course allowing them to fill in the gaps in their knowledge rather than going through all the basics again.
The difference in the training will lead to the following, the doctors trained through apprenticeships will know how to diagnose and treat only things they have seen before, and the doctors trained in the traditional way will know and be able to treat every thing, this is because they were taught the underlying information about how and why things happen with the body.
That being said if I can become a sort of doctor without having to go through many years of class room study, sign me up.
Not true. Doctor apprentices have to complete the same medical degrees as traditional medical students. The modern apprenticeship programme is nothing like the old system.
Nope. Apprentices will gain the knowledge and learn it. It will be like a degree but also working at the same time.
People complain about this yet they don't realize that surgeons and doctors throughout history learned through apprenticeships, in practice. Only in the advent of universities when we start getting more memorization. Most doctors will forget what they learned in a year.
Apprenticeships will not only provide knowledge, it will bring back practical knowledge, something most newly qualified doctors lack.
@@ryuixyui kind of, but they cannot complete the apprenticeship unless they complete the degree.
Singaporean trained doctors working in the UK were reportedly aghast at the lack of medical knowledge and poor understanding evident in the new breed of dumbed down British medics.
It’s good news - will get rid of the saturation of middle and upper classes in medicine who are out of touch with those they treat - doctors should come from the community they serve rather than looking down on those they are supposed to help
Lots of doctors do come from working class backgrounds, but the combination of fees, costs in medical school and poor pay as a junior make it harder for working class kids.
The solution isn't to reduce the qualification, but to provide grants etc.
@@shabbydabbydo314 my point - working class backgrounds excluded - there are generations of upper and middle class doctor families saturating the NHS topped up by overseas doctors - the doctor population is not representative- hardly any indigenous working class Brits
The apprenticeship a good idea - medicine not just about memorising facts - it’s hands on with the community
@@isayit6054 about 30% of doctors are privately educated Vs around half of solicitors, so I don't think medicine is worse than other professions. So medicine does a reasonable job compared to other professions, but the core issue is economic. Don't lower standards, remove the economic barriers, scrap fees and gives grants where needed.
With apprenticeships you'll get two tiers of doctors - degree educated and non degree educated.
Also I'm not sure what you mean when you say "indigenous"?
@@shabbydabbydo314 indigenous =British born - it’s not just about private education it’s about what level of society they come from - more than 90% middle class wether went to state school or not & they are out of touch with those they are treating
@@shabbydabbydo314 apprenticeships not lowering standards - it’s about learning on the job which is what medicine should be - it is very much a practical and social profession
Final nail in the coffin, now people are forced to go to private healthcare. Brilliant idea
Those who are talking negative about this scheme are cheap critique - These doctors will pass same exam which other doctors appear for.. please don’t abuse good idea just because you have spent money on your own Doctor degree
NHS was fine under Labour
Really so giving dodgy breast implants from france for free to doleys then having to remove/replace them on tax payers money is fine is it? Leftarrds have short memories it seems
New Labour destroyed the NHS.
We had nurses last year for 16 weeks who broke 6 ventilators, pulled out 5 supra pubic catheters out, caused two pressure soars & many more skin issues & this was dangerous enough, the client nearly got killed !
Now you want doctors to do this lol 😂 God help us all
Were they apprentice nurses though? You seem have to have neglected to mention this in your little rant…
@@Simulacra719 I’m ranting because the nurses were all trained nurses so I’m ranting due to the fact that this is Thornbury nursing agency in Britain.
If this is true I would say that's your fault for lack of proper supervision. No student nurse should have that much autonomy to do that. I dont think you are telling the full story.
@@snsn7251 I don’t do lack of supervision ! It was fully competent nurses whom we got removed & formal complaints went in. Plus video evidence of them sleeping and much more. What would I want to bring on lies when it was not my job to oversee these incompetent nurses that did wrong !
The full story is these nurses were killing a client !
Would you let someone kill a patient ?
Are you saying that doctors don't break anything or remove the wrong things?
I was talking to a local bog cleaner who said he wants to do an apprenticeship to become a doctor , he'll keep his loo brush to perform colonic irrigations 🤨
seems fine to me, ive been dealt with by jnr doctors, most of which were pretty clueless. we need to get rid of the protectionist, medical guild, mentality, for the good of the public imo
So how will a person without a medical degree be better than a junior doctor who has been working as a doctor for a decade?
@@psps2034 thats not the scenario you tit.
I still remember when I was a Med student some patients actually didn’t want me and my mates near them
Now imagine not even being a Med student?
Id rather be seen by a Nurse
Heck! Id rather be seen by a Pharmacist
Absolutely preposterous. This is crazy. They are absolutely mad. Someone get the tories out of bloody government. What the hell are they doing. This is playing with peoples lives.
No they aren’t as apprentices complete the same training and qualifications as medical students. This video is spreading misinformation.
@@Simulacra719 are u bloody kidding me. As a healthcare worker within the NHS and coming from a community where our colleagues spend upwards of 10 years specializing and honing their craft. I dare you to find a single apprentice who has the same credentials as a qualified licensed doctor, it's insulting to even say an apprentice can be the same as a doctor, wth. This isn't misinformation sorry but an apprentice can not and should not replace a qualified doctor. Period. Instead focus on keeping the skilled labour you have in the country and not alienating them further. Period.the UK needs to start appreciating it's doctors as the professionals they are or more and more of them are going to go off to Australia and the middle east. I can attest to how many have already done that. And it's the situation here on top of pay and lifestyle you have politicians disrespecting doctors by acting like apprentices can somehow take over from doctors now. It's insulting, and the public needs to realize this too. Don't disrespect your skilled labour, or any labour. A doctor or nurse has trained for their job, spent ages honing their craft, an apprentice taking their place or replacing them is preposterous and dangerous. It isn't just knowledge, doctors have faced situations life and death situations they know how to deal with things better. It's a mind set. You are setting up these poor apprentices for failure by throwing them in the pressure cooker. That's why I say it's preposterous and crazy.
@@phoenixonfire83 I’m sorry but this video is misinformation. The apprenticeship is not designed to replace qualified doctors, it is there to help a different demographic to the usual students qualify as doctors, including people like yourself who are already healthcare professionals. The apprentices still have to do the same length of training as the traditional route (the apprenticeship only covers becoming initially qualified) and they have to successfully complete an accredited degree to complete their apprenticeship. They would then enter F1 training the same as any other newly-qualified doctor. Apprentices will train and hone their knowledge and skills in exactly the same way as those on the traditional route, and they are not allowed to practice autonomously until they are properly qualified. Please do some research - Health Education England’s website contains a press release with further links and information.
@@Simulacra719 so in essence you are spending all this time and resource in finding a replacement for doctors by making apprentices do the exact same thing?? Now does that make any sense, I suppose cynically it does if you want cheap labour that is barely fit for function after all you wouldn't need to pay apprentices the same would you, but to burst that bubble reality doesn't work that way, quality is always better than quantity every single time. Why not invest in the doctors and nurses you already have. Why not pay them properly and stop them leaving the country by treating them with respect and incentivising their daily jobs with pay and quality of life assurance. I am sorry but this is yet another attempt at trying to minimize the role of doctors by trying to get regular apprentices somehow cover for doctors. They have tried this with nurse practitioners and it's famously backfired. The truth is that doctors are not just regular people, these are men and women who have a special propensity to work harder than many other professionals. They work longer hours in more pressurized work environments and yes whether you like it or not they have a certain amount of intellect that most regular people don't. They study and work hard and not just anyone who applies for an apprenticeship can compete. So if you come back with an apprentice being just as smart I will just say then that that apprentice should just go through med school too and prove it. I don't need to do any research this is yet another attempt at trying to find a short cut to getting substandard people fill in empty spaces that have become ever more prevalent, the end plan is service provision. And that is it. Perhaps take your own advice and do some research. Droves of doctors are leaving because of exactly this kind of mindset and the fact this government thinks they can be so easily replaced. And in the long run what does that achieve. You are entitled to your own view but I work every day in the NHS what we need is more doctors. More qualified doctors who aren't overworked, paid well for their services and treated with respect. To even suggest apprenticeships is the answer is beyond laughable. Start treating the ones you have on the floor better and investing in them first and stop wasting the money you don't have on other harebrained schemes. I bet you these apprentices you are lauding so much will burn out much quicker than doctors when faced with a dying patient. Do you have any idea how annoying this whole nurse practitioner thing has been for doctors. They tried replacing doctors with nurses as well. Again professionals, but trained differently with their own limitations. And do you know what that has achieved , more headaches for the doctors because even if nurses are trained and I bet you better than apprentices, they aren't confident enough to make life and death decisions. So in addition to doing their own jobs doctors need to mollycoddle junior nurses who ask every single thing even if the answer is obvious, now they have passed exams and are qualified too but as I said it's not just about knowledge. It takes a certain person to become a doctor. Not every tom, dick or harry can just wake up one day and decide to apprentice and then pass an exam and work at the same level as a doctor who has planned to become one since their infancy. I know a doctor who did their first unpaid shadowing in a GP surgery at the age of 14 spending the whole summer in the surgery when other kids were out playing, and u think an apprentice will ever be at the same level, seriously?? This isn't an isolated story. Many doctors make immense sacrifices to become doctors, it's not just medical schools it's far before that and far after as well. An apprentice who trains less than a doctor and passes an exam is not going to be at the same level, believe me. Please try to speak to real professionals who actually work in the profession before trying to preach your version of what you think is best. I come from a hospital environment and I work every single day in life and death situations. In the company of other professionals far more knowledgeable than me.. my opinion is that this is misinformation and utter stupidity. And if things continue the way they are going many more of us will also end up leaving to preserve our livelihoods and sanity. You can then have all the apprentices you desire and see how well the system works. The day this happens I can assure u is the day me and many of my colleagues leave. Enough is enough. And you may not care and say good riddance but only time will tell and then you can read through all the broken promises on the health education england website when the NHS is crumbling around your ears and is on the fast track to privatisation. As if health education england haven't gotten it wrong a million times in the past already. Please wake up. I say again invest in the people on the ground right now spend the money on them and the broken healthcare system. This is not the time for harebrained new schemes which I can tell you in all likelihood will fail miserably. Again you are entitled to your opinion. But I refuse to accept this as a good idea. The nurse practitioner situation has proven that beyond a doubt. Good day.
@@phoenixonfire83 Anyone of average intelligence can get into medical school in dumbed down Britain.
No way this is bloody rediculas
I'd back privitisation . .
The military use a very similar system for their medics. An MA 1 medic is highly qualified, usually a warrant officer, above a nurse and below a doctor.
Anyone can become a doctor in dumbed down Britain.
Idk what the hell is happening with britain 🇬🇧 like in every situation be it economy be it debt be it healthcare everything that used to be best a while ago is in ruins 😕
What if you graduate with a degree in Biomedical Science… would that appease the sceptics, cynics and non-believers? Would they believe in a degree holder with the perfect degree which gives you all the prerequisite knowledge required to study Medicine as an apprentice?
Nick is right
I’ll not be treated by an asterix doctor. Thanks.
What if you have three degrees, a master in surgical practice, SFA, 15 years of experience in operating theatres with difficult cases, emergencies cases on call, trasplants and lots of dedication, are you allowed to do a medical apprenticeship? People that are skilled, knowledgeable and dedicated deserve a chance to do that in my opinion.
None of that compares to being a doctor . What are you talking about when you talk about emergency cases and transplants ? You’re either the doctor doing the operations or not . There’s more to being a surgeon than just doing the operation.
@@psps2034 There are advanced non medical practitioner with lots of skills and experience as surgical first assistant that maybe deserve a chance to learn.
@@laurelin5822 You have proven my point. They have the skills to do an operation but thats not what being a surgeon is! TBeing a surgeon means you are a doctor so half your job is treating patients on the ward and in outpatient clinics. You have to decide when a scan is needed and what you're trying to answer with the scan. You are utulising your knowledge of anatomy, pathology and science to formulate a plan. You can teach anyone to "do" an operation but thats not what being a surgeon is. A consultant surgeon will have FRCS in their respective speciality and have years of experience treating surgical problems outside of an operating theatre. A surgeon has been a doctor in many specialties for a few years before entering surgical training. You are reducing surgery to the operation itself.
Coming from a student nurse - how is it then seen acceptable that student nurses spent 2,300 hours working 12 hour shifts FOR FREE?
Many traditional medical students take advantage of the flexibility during clinical placements to leave early for 'teaching'. No wonder they feel lost and out of depth when starting as an FY1, with little clinical and personable experience.
Many traditional and apprentice nurses feel confident after qualifying due to the clinical exposure, and actually learning to balance work, exams and study is a habit that should be carried on post qualifying as a doctor as the career expects a balance of all these things.
Nick Hillman is on point 👍🏽👍🏽
Yeah another pie in the sky idea. Sadly even apprentice electricians go to college.
And so will apprentice doctors. They have to complete the usual medial degree.
Tories need to go
Having gone through the proposed plan, I believe the interviewer and the female guest aren't quit informed about this scheme. The are in apprenticeship for 5years which comprises of clinical and classroom periods. So they go to school but gets instant experience and practical instead of waiting for years before they start their experience
This reporter is absolutely biased toward the apprenticeship. Those students in the apprentice program will also need to do their studies and pass their exams to eventually gain their medical degree and license. They are just started to work or to see what the real world is on the ward earlier. I believe they won't have the authority to see, to prescribe, or to practice medicine without a real doctor being on the scene. This is just exactly the same as medical students come from a traditional med school. the only differences are, they do have the foundation of anat and phy knowledge, but they also dont have the power to order treatment without the real doctors permission.
you get your degree in medicine after your fifth year
This is a terrible idea!
why?
🇺🇸🇮🇱🇬🇧 there is one big issue you should look at between the 1950s and 1960s the Americans made a movie spectacular in black and white regarding how Jews were being treated in America and in general the film was called gentleman's agreement it is a strong film but what has changed from then to now Jews have the right to live in the world just as much as anybody considering how they suffered in the second world war what has changed bad politics and bad leadership and bad etiquette
See one. Do one. Teach one. ????
Let’s stick with DO ONE.
Not how it works. They have to complete a medical degree and are not eligible to practice as a doctor until they do. Please do your research before commenting.
uk standards are truly bottoming out.
They bottomed out over 30 years ago.
England 🚽
Hell Yes !!! - let them start this. So there is alternative to 'doctors- hold monopoly '. And smart people from any backgrounds can get into medicine. People in uk need desperate access to doctors. What is happening now post Covid is shocking. We can judge later.
Hird world policy