Why The K'tinga Kinda Sucked...
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Definitely not just copying Lazerpig here...
In all seriousness; the past year has caused me and many other Kling-aboos.
(Looking at you @AnimarchyHistory ) To re evaluate many beloved and iconic klingon ships as more and more are lost during their i'll fated Invasion of Cardassia. worst affected of these is the once feared K'tinga class Battlecruiser, now reduced to a mere moniter and a regular victim of both Jem'Hadar fighters, Cardassian Destroyers, and Breen Frigates.
So what happened to this once proud Battlecruiser? Why Does the K'tinga Suck?
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Love the homage to Lazerpig! By the way, there was a K'tinga on active service in Season 1 of TNG ("Heart of Glory").
A PhaserTarg video if you will
Yep but thankfully it was only in a diplomatic role.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 heh... But, seriously, if the Klingns get dingedfor keeping ships in serivce well-past when they should have been retired, what does that say about the Federation and their century-plus old designs (Miranda, Excelsior, etc)?
@Greg Price to be fair, the Miranda and excelsior were both newer then the ktinga. The Ktinga going back all the way to the d7, vs the Miranda and excelsy being new at a time when the d7 type was already starting to become obsolete. You're point still stands, just figured I'd throw that caveat in the works.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 there was the tong, with klinker sleepers on board. Someone in the empire remembered these fckers were out there, about to wake up and possibly pillage their current ally. So they hollered starfleet like "yo btw there be klinkers out there who have slept through the whole kithomer thing. Maybe go off em?"
The Miranda class is the federation’s version of the K’tinga in the dominon war.
Yes it is always an exploding Miranda
Except the Miranda was actually agile in comparison
@@cpt_bill366 the war canoe was more agile than the K’tinga
@@cpt_bill366 still made of explodium though...
@CPT_Bill it's a statement to the absolute badassery of the Miranda that 100 years on its still a semi capable fighter. Even if it's gone from arguably out classing the Constitution class, the flagship of its own fleet, to being the lowest possible rung of capable fighting ship.
"In war truth is the first casualty"-Hiram Johnson
That's why independent news reporters on the ground are important.
But these days, all reporters are busy copying and pasting for click bait.
"it's more important to be seen to be fighting the war" in some ways losing an epic battle makes a better story than winning just look at the mythology that's been spun around the various Jacobite risings and the defeat at Culloden.
Also, I wonder if some of the willingness to accept sub-par vessels is an understanding that there are too many Klingon warriors for the empire to support. this is a socially acceptable way to cull that warrior class, or "if the young upstart male dies 'heroically' on the command deck of a K'tinga he can't challenge me for leadership later"
This is exactly why I'm a big fan of the Star Trek Online timeline. The KDF did have this come to Jesus moment after the Dominion War and realized its fleet was utterly inadequate and launched a huge program of modernization. By 2411 the KDF is keeping up with Starfleet using newer and more effective Birds-of-Prey and powerhouse capital ships like the Bortasqu' battleships and the absolutely colossal Vo'Devwl battle carrier.
The Klingon Empire of Star Trek Online is one that learned it's lesson and decided it didn't want to be the sick man of the Alpha Quadrant anymore. Granted it still has a corruption problem but it's learned that they can't just brainlessly hang on to 100 year old ships and expect them to keep up.
Aaaaand they they released the d7 again. And again.
@@trazyntheinfinite9895 though in this case with a 25th century refit. Giving the basic platform a modern twist and giving it a new purpose.
Dude remember the Ukraine are using western updated T 72 battle tanks . This makes me wonder what if Star fleet helped update some of those old Klingon warships. Given how Star fleet update the excelsior class , it’s not to far off the mark to say they could do the same for the Klingons
They are not to mention all the stuff they've captured and yet they still asked for modern Western systems...
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I mean, to be fair, the shit they captured really didn't do many favors to the guys they captured it from, did it?
"You don't just...upgrade things."
(U.S.S. Lakota has entered the chat)
I am enjoying your content quite a bit, been binging your stuff as it comes up in my feed!
The B-52 has also entered the chat.
I dunno I still think it would have been possible to retrofit the K'tinga just enough, so it could be of use. Perhaps not as a frontline ship, but more of an escort and or strife cruiser. I mean the idea of making it a monitor in itself was not a bad idea as I do think the K'tinga was still able to fit the role but certainly the implementation and execution left a lot to be desired.
I would just up the weapons, the targeting systems and the cloaking device, replace the main computer, and perhaps you could have something. Now rather if one can do this without a complete overhaul is unknown, but the overall framework of the K'kinga is robust enough, so I think it could work if given time. Its that time thing is where the biggest both came from TBH.
If the Klingons had an economy like the Federation, they likely would have been able to upgrade it, as the Feds upgraded the Excelsior class. In many ways, this is one of the stronger comparisons to Russia (this, and poor leadership).
The U.S. and Russia both use equipment that was originally designed 50-6 years ago. For the U.S., systems such as the Nimitz class carrier, F-15s, and the M1 Abrahms tanks have all been updated numerous times, and remain at least front line capable, if not outright superior to most other nations. None of them use the same communications, radars, targeting systems, etc that they were originally built with. Many of their weapons have been upgraded, engines upgraded. About the only thing that was not upgraded, where the nuclear reactors on the Nimitz, and the structure of it's flight deck, as it was cheaper to build a new carrier.
Russia simply was not able to upgrade and improve their equipment in this way, and as a result, equipment that was at least competitive in the 1970's, is sorely lacking compared to U.S. capabilities. One example of this, is the lack of thermal sites on the Russian tanks. While some have them, not all do. This places them at a distinct disadvantage, as they are essentially blind in comparison to modern forces. Then add in Russia's complete lack of logistical support, and no pre-planning of the invasion, failure to support their tanks with infantry, and you get the CF you see in Ukraine.
@@nunya3163 Yeah such things are always an issue, I mean the Klingons had a major setback when they went to war against the Cardassians/ Federation and likely the empire was in tatters.
I mean, it was also in tatters after the Klingon civil war, so it exacerbated things farther.
I think the space used by the original weapons systems (computers, fire control, powerplant) limit what can be put in as an upgrade. More powerful weapons need more volume, thus bigger ships. There's also the powerplant energy capacity, and what's the maximum power that can be sent through conduits/circuits, etc. Newer weapons, computers, guidance, it all needs more power, and also the conduits and circuits to channel it.
@@roberthilton5328 I dunno I mean why not retrofit disruptors or a reactor from a Bird of Prey of similar size? I mean, one can imagine that the Bird of Prey doesn't differ that much from the K'tinga in terms of internals, the Klingons love to stick to tried and true designs even when upgrading their hardware. And even if they were different, they still have smaller Birds of Preys out there to mod parts from until newer ships became available.
@@themadoneplays7842 Maybe the space for disruptors or reactor could work as you propose, but what about the power conduits between from that new reactor _to_ those new systems? If you can't push enough power, neither reactor nor new weapons, control or fire control do any good.
1st People seems to always underestimate the Klingon Emperor. If the Federation did not save the Detapa Council the Klingon would have won the war befor it even started. 2nd with Martok as the new Chancellor the Emperors was only going to be getting stronger.
Opening goes full laserpig...... I keep a sub. In all honesty the K'tinga languished in the TNG era due to a major focus on Bird of prey development and the Vorcha and Neg'varh programs. If properly upgraded or given a successor based on it's frame it would serve a very good light battlecruiser role. The fact that in STO the K'tinga has a 25th century "refit" that is an entirely new ship built around it's old concept and is shown to be a powerful ship says something about the base frame.
It probably would've been the Klingon equivalent to the Miranda if it had the proper upgrades.
@@merafirewing6591 that's where I'm going with it. They went from torpedo boat doctrine of early battleship era France to dreadnoughts. They didn't build any medium cruisers to support either doctrine.
God, imagine klingons beaming whole elite marine regiments into the void instead of DS-9, then losing their flagship to the planet without navy, then losing thousands of ships because the fuel tankers got bogged down in the space mud or something, and many, many other things happening to them.
The memes, Jack!
Well, we do kind of have the Fek'lhr-class lighter cruiser, from Starfleet Command III and Armada 2, as I recall?
Over a hundred metres longer than the K't'inga, packs a good portion of a Vor'cha's mass and firepower...
May not be numerous or flexible enough, though, to replace the K't'Inga outright, yet.
Star Trek Online has a K'tinga refit that streamlines and improves the ship. I'd wish it has a new name but it's a good design.
Congratulations Venom: you made the Miranda's fans feel a little less down-trodden.😁
OMG love that opening!
Ohh, the nostalgia hit when you started the engines part...
Clicked for a deconstruction of K'tinga in DS9 and Khitomer Massacre, got a decent commentary of the Ukraine conflict.
Was not expecting a Lazerpig rant for the intro 😂
The K'tinga's loss is the Kreosian F5's gain.
Multiple factors why the Klingon stop their Invasion.
1. Dominion threat. Didn't want to lost many ships so soon. It wasn't a question if Dominion would invade. It rather when.
2. Not wanting to risk open war with Federation, especially with Klingon forces divided with one third of their forces on other side of Federation with their leader trap behind enemy line.
3: cut supply if war opens. Klingon force would need time to dig in the occupied space they took. They likely didn't think Federation would react so quickly as they did.
4. Cardassins while putting up a stiff resistance would likely be overrun or at least Klingon would be in striking range to threaten Cardassins prime. They were going through some changing the guard and government reforms when suddenly attack. Compare being under the Dominion were they was more organized.
5.DS9 was more of a challenge then previous believe along with Federation reinforcements which I do believe was key objective to take at some point after the invasion.
Ultimately, the situation was becoming more hotter then Klingon were expecting.
I clicked on this thinking I would hate it, but you gave very good and thoughtful points and now I don't think I can watch a ds9 episode again with this ship in it and take it serious anymore...👍👍👍🖖 Good job
Would there have been a better way to modernize the K’tinga? Like as a destroyer similar to the Miranda or could it not have had the agility to do anything like that?
I luaghed the moment you mentioned Lazer Pig because your open was in his style so I wondered if you were a fan.
I wonder how much it frosts K'tinga commanders than an Excelsior can be equipped with quantum torpedoes and modern phasers and shields. The Federation can deploy their outmoded ships to some degree of success, while theirs just demonstrate the extent of the power creep since the time of Kirk.
So basically the Ktinga is like the klingons version of an excelsior or miranda, built in the late 23rd century and by the time of the dominion war effectively no longer fit for purpose, even with refits. That a bit like with buff up Galaxy class varients, of said war, necessitated a complete rebuild as anew class to make it useful as a warship again.
I love this shit. And I absolutely love the idea that these combined arms tactics of the opposing sides truly do make sence. But does it really and do all these random factiods really fit together like particular pieces of a puzzle that can be fit together into an overarching logical framework that does actually hold together, or is it really just mental masterbation?
oh i didn't hammer my keyboard.... I got the popcorn!!!!
Someone’s been watching their lazerpig
I wonder when the D7 production stopped. Probably when the Kamarag entered production. You are absoletly right about upgraades but that doesn't mean a Mark 1 D7A from the 2260s is the same beast as a Mark 5 D7K from the 2310s.
@5:46 what is going on with his left hand?! I really did not think an opposite Vulcan "Live long and prosper" hand sign was possible. Yet there it is! Good gawd man -- the movie industry is helping them! He's giving them the sign that they will understand -- to "die soon and disintegrate"!
I wonder how badly would the Constitution-class Heavy Cruiser Refit if the ships has been retained into service just like the Miranda-class Light Cruiser. So how would that class fair into the Dominion War?
Interesting take. I, too, felt the inclusion of K'Tingas in ST: DS9 felt a bit like desperation on the part of the Empire. Changing the forward torpedo tube to a lance was also kinda dumb since it would have a limited firing arc... the torpedoes that were meant to be fired from there could seek/find targets so the lance thing was kinda dumb. Still, I like the K'Tinga and perhaps not all were turned into monitors... like, say, the B'Moth from "Soldiers Of The Empire."
Are there any of the older Klingon designs that could've filled this Monitor role better than the K'Tinga?
The Torpedo knows where it is...
K'Tinga belongs where all Klingon ships belong...
IN THE TRASH!!!
*this message was approved by the Romulan Imperial Navy*
Jolan Tru
Romulan ships don't belong in the trash. Romulan ships ARE trash, so are Romulans.
Cheers
To show how outdated the K’tinga was, Its main counterpart was the Constitution class, a ship that had be largely retired 5 years earlier after the Battle of Wolf 359
K'tinga basically the Klingon T72. Have the D7's show up and basically its the "when will we see T34's showing up."
Honestly I wish they just kept the Torpedo launcher rather than the artillery disruptor. It's a tough old bitch but it should have been kept as a rear line reserve as a house ship. Poor K't'inga.
Yo why didn't they just make these things into torpedo machine guns
Limited ammo capacity. And only single shot capacity which is not very competitive in the 24th century.
Even if you're Klingon and the enemy is Cardassian; if they have 1.2 million troops, you do not just throw 190.000 men at them and expect to win.
I'm not sure we can put all of the blame on Gowron. Just, you know, most of it. He probably would have considered increasing production of new ships before the invasion of Cardassia, considering how well the Vor'Cha and Negh'Var turned out. He might have even consulted his most esteemed general on the matter...
Using the K'Tingas wasn't just a miscalculation, it was a strategic attack by the Founders to reduce the KDF's fighting ability from what it could have been.
Meanwhile, at Starfleet HQ: "let's see how our Constellations, Mirandas and Excelsiors did against that tiny Dominion force. Oh... All destroyed. Get Utopia Planitia on the line, we need some more Excelsiors and Mirandas. Millionth time is the charm.
you know, i was just thinking about dominion war ships that were upgraded. i was particulary thinking of the exclesiors myself. but those k'tingas should have been shelved years ago. i'd rather be in a miranda, and that's not saying much. great video
Well at least the excelsior is a turn of the century build.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 And looking at the registry numbers of most Miranda's and Excelsior's seen in the 2360's and 70's, it suggests that most of them where built between 2320 and 2340, likely built with the modern technology available at the time. So while they are definitely old ships by the dominion war, they are between 40 and 50 years old, so they aren't anywhere near a horribly out of date as the K'tinga, and more or less still within the typical expected life of a ship, if at the very end.
In fact I wouldn't be surprised of the dominion wars' sheer need for having as man ships as possible in the fleet now, actually delayed the miranda's retirement.
Read "the Myth of Soviet Military Power" by Tom Gervasi. Some of us have known their weaknesses for decades.
no começo do vídeo ficou extremamente engraçado, precisamos trabalhar mais em nosso dialeto Klingon 😁😁😁
Love the Top Gear Theme.
I think allmost all Klingon ships have some means of collecting Hydrogen & other gasses they just don't put big glowing parts on their ships to do it when they have cloaking devices and such needing to work too. There is clearly one on the MSD even if it isn't properly labelled. and it's much more obvious in Star Trek VI. Maybe something like a 22nd Century mid range vessel might not, but otherwise it's suicidal to not have the ability to collect fuel as you go. even if you had to send out an EVA engineering party with a great big vacuum hose when sitting near a star to do it.
It's one of those basic things like "have at least one an FTL capable auxiliary craft if at all possible" unless the ship is "very small". and well Alexander's mom got fired out of a Torpedo so that is also and option I guess.
Looks at the Federation fleets with their century old Excelsior and Miranda ships… 🤔
I’d point at the budget of the show runners rather than the Klingon Empires logistics.
Seriously, i nearly got a heart attack.
The one way they could have made it work, was to forget the whole phaser bs, keep the torpedo tubes and just design a new torpedo that was compatible with the old launch system, and has its own proximity guidance system. Use this for the ones where they are too cheap to upgrade the ship and design the proper doctrine for it, tell the commanders that they are flying museum pieces, so act accordingly with it and always rely on support/superior numbers. (Yes yes i know, telling this to a Klingon is probably a challenge on its own.)
And in the cases where they are not too cheap to upgrade the ship, either outright replace most of the systems, or design backwards compatible parts that can each work with any older systems if needed. So what if the power grid is outdated? A pulse disruptor bank could have its own capacitors that can still charge with the old grid, and still be capable of firing with lower rate once the capacitor runs out. Anyone not capable of designing a computer which can also work with an older sensor array, but be ready to use a new to its full capacity, honestly should not design computers at all. Got old barely working cloaking devices? Capitalize on your enemy seeing those by mixing in some decoys that can simulate the same cloak signature, making them think you have more forces where you have less, use them as bait, or turn the bloody thing off and do not turn it back on when you need to do sensor sweeps, and you suspect that your shields will be needed soon.
Old does not necessarily means senile, and when it comes to needing ships, having outdated ships still beats having no ships.
Hot take: the k'tinga was the Miranda class of the Klingon fleet.
Super late to the party, I know. I was just thinking that if you're going to press a 23rd century Klingon ship into service why not the F-5? Old cloaks may not be great but, at a distance should work pretty well. Allow the big boys to lock horns then have squadrons of F-5s blitz through the battle space unloading volleys at point blank without ever slowing down. Iirc plasma torpedoes are still powerful in the 24th century they're just too slow to hit anything at a distance...which is NOT how the F-5 was built to fight. Would have made a nice excuse to see them on screen.
i suppose this depends on which K'tinga fans accept. Most fans see it as smaller than the d7 because of a silly fleet chart online, then there are those who know it would logically be a bit larger.
I have never played any of the tactical or strategy games. So I can readily enuf imagine that this does all fit together in a manner described as such and that I am just ignorant of it all.
Lazerpig?
I wish I could be so handsome
i seen way way more propaganda from Ukraine then Russia.
That's because of the blackout of any Russian Media to the rest of the world.
Yes, such a total failure that it stayed in service longer than the Excelsior
Feels a bit like the various non-Russian T-72 modernisations like PT-91 or the T-72M4 CZ. Definitely lacking compared to top-shelf Leo A5s and clearly inferior to the upcoming 4th gen tanks, but with they got most of the capabilities of proper 3rd gen tanks like ok thermals, decent fire control or a proper electric kettle. ERA might be hit or miss with them, but the sometimes you need to fight on a budget. The key difference is that these post-soviet countries usually don't boast their capabilities unlike Klingons.
Yeah I also think these tanks were badly employed.
The K’Tinga was in active service during TNG though
As a consular vessel. Not a warship. And in my head Canon that was probably a kamarag.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Or maybe the great houses had a couple of them lying around just to have more ships, or as monuments, museums, or just part of the fleet though only in an honorary kind of way.
Dead on comparison. To be honest I thought the myth of the mighty Russian armored force was broken during the first Gulf War when we shot the shit out of all those Russian built tanks. Ukraine is just the final nail in that particular coffin. As for the "upgrades", I'm glad someone else sees what I see. Some have put forth the idea that Starfleet built more Constitution-class ships based on the Enterprise refit but that's just silly. The Essex-class carriers were great ships but by the end of the war its replacement was already under construction. You can only run a ship like the K'tinga for so long before basic up keep, keeps it in the docks more than its deployed.
Keep up the great work sir.
Ya, totally make sense it like bringing ww1. Destroyer out of mothball, update it to 1980s, then face the modern Japanese navy ouch but d7 rule lol
I think that you are but harsh, the Ktinga is doing something that no other ships can do, they dont have another artillery ship before the end of the war.
The Ktinga proved to be very effective in defense at the battle of Arcadia for example.
By the way the klingon fleets that were to rdv with the federation for operation return left behind (at arcadia) their Ktinga and this proved to be effective for both the battle of Arcadia and operation Return.
When he starts playing the Soviet National Anthem 😂😂😂
The Klingon fleet has never ever been able to successfully fight a war of attrition. They have weaker shields, hulls and repair systems than any other Alpha/Beta quadrant power. They always follow the balls-to-the-wall Patton-esque "attack and attack and attack some more, and keep attacking until we suffocate the enemy in a self-genocidal mountain of our own corpses" battle doctrine. This is what happens when an entire race believes that glorious death in battle is at least as worthwhile a goal as attaining victory. They have absolutely no idea what to do when their bulldozer tactics are met with a 50 foot thick wall of steel that is slowly advancing towards them. They usually continue the same battle tactics that ends up resembling the old test footage of a jet fighter afterburning into a concrete shield of a nuclear reactor to test its durability (Spoiler: The fighter jet goes from being 63 feet long to 1 millimeter long). The D7/K'tinga was designed for this purpose - push deep into Federation space and knock out Starfleet's ability to wage war in one opening battle and then begin the bombardment of Earth. The Klingons have never had any success designing a warship with staying power until the Negh'var - that ship itself has the size and toughness of a Galaxy class with a slight firepower edge. If the Klingons were a race of disciplined professional soldiers instead of bloodthirsty barbarians, they would have entire fleets of Negh'vars as their primary forces. If the Cardassians had been blessed with the resources to field a similar number of ships as the Klingons, they would have won without ever needing to call on the Dominion.
I to have an interest in Russian history and technology. And I agree with your assessment.
I'm my own work I based one of the main factions on a cross between imperial Russia, Prussia and Soviet army.
There an army with their own nation. The image of an unstoppable iron fist is true. So I asked the question, what happens when you face something stronger.
Venom????
At 20min:
"THE TORPEDO KNOWS WHERE IT IS BECAUSE IT KNOWS WHERE IT ISN'T"
;D
Klingons: "CHARGE!!!!"
Also Klingons: "Hold on. Should we have brought supply ships with us?"
Supply ships and refitting mean going back to klingon space where you may likely get an entirely different ship and crew. Repairs are done in the rear lines by those unworthy to be warriors, a true warrior would either die in battle or take a new mount and return to battle.
Their very philosophy is counter to the more civilized and logical requirements of war.
love your joke mr tim got me laughing good
If Laserpig cared more about Star Trek, and was ever sober….
@Captain Bo
NOT SCIENTIFICALLY POSSIBLE!
I was about to say. If you want him to talk trek. Get him drunk.
@@venomgeekmedia9886he compared the crew of the Piorun to Klingons in the video he did about them.
Remember that Klingon fleets are made up of the house fleets. I am positive that many of these houses had a bunch of those ships and said "These ships are great we don't need something new"
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
While that may indeed be a factor, I kind of want to point out that the Klingons are big weapons fans, I think the Houses that had the means would be pretty likely to hotrod the things. at least as much as the spaceframe allows. At least engine swaps look relatively straightforward on those, and with some of the weapons at least it seems they could put newer and better gear in to make the most of the power grids anyway. More capability miniaturized and such .
Basically I'm rather less pessimistic about the possibilities, *but* you could count on a pretty wide variation among the things.
@@OllamhDrab why did I end up picturing some klingon leader of his house with his great great great grandfather's D4 with a custom paint job and some K'Tinga components on it and some newer tech from the Vor'cha.
It was shown in the House of Quark that the great houses had to make due with what their budgets could afford.
They were expected to provide most of the fleet during war, but that didn’t mean they had unlimited funds to do it.
Ah capitalist industrial-military complex at its finest. :p
When I was a kid, we had a friend of the family who explained to me, what he called, the "Circle of Command"... Not to be confused with the "Chain of Command"... The "Circle of Command", as he explained it, was... A ship is only as good as her Captain, a Captain is only as good as the crew, and the crew is only as good as their ship... One fails, they ALL fail... I would say "Outside Influences" contribute to the circle too...
The enemy always gets a say.
@@nunya3163 Indeed they do...
"I think the Yanks night have had something to do with it"
No circle of command is when a bunch of women need to make a decision. It goes around and around and around and nothing gets done... 🤣
The problem with the K'Tinga was that it wasn't given enough screen time ever since the Bird of Prey debuted in Search for Spock. Then they introduced the Vor'Cha which filled the Klingon capital ship role that was originally for the K'Tinga. The K'Tinga was a victim of writers' injustice.
K'Tingas were blasted by V'Ger, while B'rels were terrorizing Kirk.
at 300m plus in length i personally feel the K'Tinga class would at least make a good light cruiser role just like the constitution refit in the 24th century back in the day when they both was at the highest of there prime or career they would be considered something else
@@keithrees4755 Isn't the role of a cruiser to patrol and fend of skirmishes?
Doesn't sound like a K'Tinga could thrive in that environment at all with it's one phaser which it needs to point and fire.
Unless all you're trying to do is project power.... which.. maybe?
@@Broockle 1st of all which century you talking about because atm your not making sense
@@keithrees4755 24th...
The real grueling thing is that the K’tinga could have been utilized in a much more effective manner. Bringing the old glory out of mothballs for one last charge on the battlefield. Use her as a troop transport and planetary siege ship. Her fire control system, aged cloaking system, lack of secondary weapons, aren’t that large of a detriment. Static defenses wouldn’t be hard to target, your opponent would already know your in the area, and your secondary disrupters are more of a point defense system.
Yes...but where is the honor is what is virtually overkill?
@@alexandercaires5921 Victory brings honor
Very similar to what I said too! Great Minds think a like!
i am sure the klingons would have put more up to date modern equipment *such as a disruptor beam that we saw in the 1st ds9 station battle* in her before sending her to her death i am sure they wanted to ensure she could do as much damage as her hull would allow for
Just a hypothesis after watching this that might be worthy of a video -
Starfleet and the KDF were really quite the same at the late 2350s and early 2360s. Both depending on very large fleets of obsolete ships that were 100 years old that played vital roles in fleet operations. K'tinga for the KDF and Miranda for Starfleet. Both had more advanced ships in the Vorcha and Project Galaxy ships respectively but not a lot. The true difference was that Starfleet had Excelsior vs Karmalag (spell).
Anyway. Starfleet got its wake up call about the real state of their fleet from the Borg. The Kingons didn't get theirs until the Cardassian invasion.
Starfleet had years more time to move the Miranda's into a more suitable role and years to start upgrading their fleet to anti-Borg tactics and ships. Thus, the Federation was at least somewhat prepared as to what they would face from the Dominion, even though they still suffered greatly with all those Miranda's
The Kingons had no such preparation time to upgrade their fleet (setting aside Gowron.) Their wake up to the state of their fleet left them no time to upgrade before the Dominion war and they suffered much more for it having to depend on an obsolite ship.
So I guess it would be - even with the obvious better position of the Federation fleet with the Excelsior system vs Karmalag - how important was Wolf 359 to the Dominion War for the Federation vs not having such a blistering defeat for the Klingons when it came to their core obsolite ships?
Excellent post, my friend! Great analysis of the Klingon political-military situation prior to the Cardassian Invasion. One might add to that that the Klingons, for all their warrior lifestyle, hadn't had a major war in some time. They've had skirmishes with the Romulans and their civil war, but little practice in fleet operations, and against a fully integrated enemy military. Contrast that with the Cardassians who did recently engage in a proper war, and with a superior foe. This taught Cardassian officers to be resourceful, and to outthink their enemy to make up for having inferior equipment. With that in mind, it is not so surprising the Klingons fared poorly once the element of surprise was gone. They came in arrogant and disdainful of the enemy and it cost them.
From the procurement perspective, this less experienced, arrogant attitude can result in the belief that anything Klingon was superior and would suffice and that even the worst K'Tinga was more than enough agains the cowardly, backwards Cardassians.
@Crown Prince Sebastian Johan of Ponte Corvo
Thank you.
I had thought exactly that. For the Cardassians, with the Border Wars, they'd been forced to develop the Galor and Keldon classes that were designed to be at least on par or superior to Excelsiors and Ambassador classes. Venom Geek has done vids on both in the Border Wars series, but it's pretty clear that the pre-Dominion Cardiassian fleet would be technologically and tactically superior to the K'Tinga fleet. But.I totally agree with what you said about the condition of Cardassia in the time frame.
Very very good point! I'll probably do a future video on the miranda and brel and how they compared over the years
Don't forget the Romulans. The Galaxy class was the biggest, most advanced ship they had. A huge leap over what had come before and in their first appearance in decades the Romulans rock up in a D'deridex which outclasses a Galaxy in everything but speed.
@gogthemagog Not forgetting the Romulans at all. Venom Geek could speak a lot more about the Romulans and if they had a similar wake-up call or if they depended on more obsolite ships at the time of the war. We just don't know a lot about what they were doing between the Tomed Incident and the Treaty of Algeron and when they became active in Alpha quadrant affairs again. All we know is what Tabok said about issues elsewhere having their attention (or I am not familiar anyway.)
In his review of the D'deredex Venom Geek said she was getting older as a concept but she was for sure much more advanced than the older ships of the KDF and Starfleet. I just don't know enough about Romulan history in the lost years to know if they'd had such a wake-up call about their fleet and tactics as Starfleet and the Cardassians had that the Kingons did not.
I am also curious what part Klingon romanticism may have held in all this and the K'tinga as a symbol. It was THE Klingon ship as the Empire was at its height, its days of true glory, their powerful heavy cruiser. This may be a big part why they chose to employ it once more while hoping to go into another true and glorious war.
Yep. A lot of historical parallels there. And we see how well it turns out...
Warning for headphone users: Unexpected Klingon jump-shock at the beginning there.
In the 24th century, the K'tinga has long passed its prime and the niche it was designed for no longer really exists. It does represent just how much of a shadow the Klingon Empire had become; not unlike a certain other country you repeated reference in this video.
Also, what was the name/spelling of that 24th century Klingon monitor design? Krom? Crom? Ckrom?
A little late on the warning there for me at least. Damn near had my heart catapult out of my chest there
*Deafened by outraged honour* WHAT!?
I thought it was helarious!
More likes, get this PSA to the top of the comments lol.
The K'Tinga....the T-62 of the ST universe.
In all fairness I don't think anyone actually thought the K'tinga was all that, we saw them die in droves from single hits from DS9's defensive armament
In fairness, those were new photon torpedoes twice the yield of normal ones . And we do see them destroyed, but several hits .
The K'tinga was created to be a jobber. It first appeared in TMP where it did fuck all before getting one-shotted three times in a row by V'ger.
I also think that we need to consider that much of the klingon fleet is made of the house fleets. I am positive that many of those guys had tons of these ships that Gowron basically said ok now let's make them work.
Tell that to them when you reach Sto'Vo'Kor.
@@canisblack Well there was reason for that in TMP, to show V'gers strength. I mean, the Klingons were a major big bad in TOS, and seeing something that can take them out in one hit was a sight to behold.
We can no longer be friends
😂
The Klingon empire is a feudal one.
So It makes sense the most powerful houses would want something big and showy...
Is the beginning a Lazerpig reference?!? A man of culture, I see.
I never thought of it that way your right the Borg may have saved star-fleet by destroying it I never payed much attention to the Klingon ships just the vorcha and the d7 and the bird of pray.
Old Cold War Veteran here. I like the comparisons in this video. The 23rd Century was like our Cold War era. And the Current year is like the Dominion War era.
Most of the Klingon empires ships in the Dominion war were obsolete older designs, plus take into account the losses with its conflicts with the cardassians previously and the federation
Mostly the Federation, the Cardassians looked to be a one sided beat down where at worst they were slowed down a bit.
Someone is also a fan of Lazerpig I see...
Not the only one
A man of culture
I don't care how good or bad was in universe, the K'tinga and the BoP simply are some of the most bad ass looking designs in all of trek :)).
yeah in much the same way those T tanks hit my aesthetic buttons. i know its terrible... but i love the IS-3
I'd also point out that in that volley of return fire from DS9, They also knocked out a minimum of 2 Vor'Cha.
Total losses of Vor'Cha 6, Total Losses of K'Tinga 11. -MemAlpha, Take with salt.
I'd say for such an old ship, it wasn't too far behind the Vor'cha in losses.
If we want to take that battle as an example, from what we see, Vor'Cha didn't stand too much better a chance than K'Tinga.
And many of their losses would have been mitigated if the didn't close to point blank range to make attack runs.
K'Tingas should of sat back and Pummeled DS9 from range, it's the perfect job for them. They didn't do that, and they got wrecked for it.
That's a failure of Tactics, not a failure of equipment.
Feels like a bit of a Swing of the Pendulum too far to one side here.
K'Tinga was old as balls, sure, but it wasn't as bad as you are making it out to be.
not really a good example as the Vorcha's due to being a more modern ship an a more dangerous one, would have been a higher priority target than the elderly K'tinga's.
Personally, I think the K'tinga shows the problem with Tex Talk Battletech's Good Enough argument. Good enough for a brief time to be a mass-produced capital ship, but quickly fell behind as evident when the new light poor man ships the Miranda Class Light Cruiser, later Frigate, was able to beat it in one on one combat, and Starfleet produced the next line of Standard Cruiser, the Excelsior.
Honestly, I think the only ship that would follow further from grace is the Scarb (Jem'Haddar Attack Fighter) Class Attack Ship. I mean, it was a ship made to be built in mass numbers and be good enough to threaten others in mass numbers. It quickly became one of the slowest ships at FTL and later Impulse to other similar size ships, and its weaponry was limited. I suspect that in the next 30 years, the Dominion will need to find a replacement if they continue a rivalry with the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
Also, I hate to tell you this, but once you reach a certain design, it is really hard to justify making a new class. There is a reason all tanks, warships, and aircraft look similar to how they look in the 1970s, we kind of reached a sort of Plato in design that outside inner components, there is not more you can do to improve it. So they generally either upgrade ones or design similar models with new components to be built to replace aging older models (F-15C to F-15EX being a good example). That is why I don't find it weird to see the Excellisor still in service a hundred years later. It's a fairly good armored design for a standard cruiser that was designed to be upgradable after Starfleet learned its lessons from the Constitution. Then making the Obena and Excelsior II with just incorporated new technology while keeping the prime design for Starfleet still need a brawling armored standard cruiser to fight with their heavier counterparts.
I mean to put in protection from working with the US Airforce, to build a C-5 Super Galaxy, it cost 1.6 billion to build a new one. Upgrading an old one by replacing the engines and inner components to get the same performance level, cost around 300 million. While old, we can get 40 more years of life before we have to retire so we just upgrade them.
Personally, I think it's because it's available en masse. Like the mirandas in the federation. it is a ship with a known legacy, but certainly not a first-rate ship. Also, If my memory is correct, DS9's deffences were modified with federation tech as well as the cardassian tech.
K'tinga sounds like armpit smell in portuguese. I always get a grin when hearing it's name
The real problem, for all countries who use Tanks, IFV, APC etc...
Is that there is a new generation of Anti-tank weapons, which are capable of knocking out any modern MBT, and many forces across the world possess these relatively cheap weapon systems
Its not just the Russians loosing tanks, propaganda on both sides are not showing their own losses or the scale of said losses
Other conflicts in recent years has demonstrated the same results in regards to the loss of armored vehicles and light armored vehicles.
This is why laser based defense systems are being developed and deployed to see and knock out incoming rounds and missiles, by groups like DARPA and Rienmettal.
We only are talking about this now, because western media Dosen't show the losses of western forces on tv.
I always imagined they gave these ships to old veterans for basically suicide missions. Funny we don’t see Klingon ramming attacks so much, seems up there alley.
It all goes back to the destruction of Praxus. The Klingon Empire fell considerably after that and never really recovered. The infiltration by the Shape Shifters also slowed much progress of rebuilding. K'Tinga Warships were built as you say in the 23rd Century and the Klingon's had very little natural resources and financial means to build any new significant fleets/space faring ships. I would compare the Klingon Empire to North Korea, starving its masses while building a few nukes and new missiles, outfitting most of the infantry with new small arms/uniforms while riding into war in 1960's/70's armor fighting vehicles.
I remember my mother got my a napoleononic war chess set . ( napoleon is King Josephine, queen, ect ) wonderful figures. ( birthday present. I think o was 12ish )
Am a lazerpig subscriber for a long time and am very very proud of you
T-62 was the last good Russian tank
Got a soft spot for it though...
Well done, my friend! Excellent fusion of policy and design. The sad thing is that in the hands of a more functional society, the K'Tinga, like the Miranda, could be refashioned into decent destroyers or escorts. Put in some new engines, give it a decent heavy phaser and wing disruptors, and some ventral and dorsal phasers, and it could do a decent job in that destroyer role to support the Vorcha or K'Vort. But, as you say, such a wholistic refit would require a proper scientific and industrial base for the massive refit to work. And the Klingons don't have that anymore. You know things are bad for the K'Tinga when pre-War Galor commanders see a K'Tinga and rub their hands together in anticipation and pre-order the celebratory kanar.
At that point though why not just build something new.
Yeah galor was built to overmatch the excelsior of the time. And the Ktinga was inferior to excelsior so...
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Agreed. The value of keeping an old ass ship around that requires as much work as a new ship is not enough to justify the expense. It isn't like the Connie refit that was modifying a 20-30 year old space frame to keep it relevant for another 20 years. Then again, the Lakota Refit was quite successful, while also being a matter of urgent need.
Klingon Armchair Generals must be on a whole 'nother level.
The upgrade argument kinda explains why the tos constutiom and tmp constitution look like different ships is basically is a different ship
That shows the cost of upgrades. Look at some of the WWII carriers that the U.S. upgrades for jets in the 1950's. They look like a completely different ship. That said, many upgrades can be made, without such radical re-design. Just look at the Nimitz class carriers, been around for nearly 50 years. The flight decks and reactors are the same, but all of the electronics, including radars, etcs. are completely different, and are vastly superior to the ship from the 70's. Likewise with many of our aircraft, they look outwardly similar, but all of the sensors, targeting systems, etc are completely different, as are the engines in many cases.
@@nunya3163 ye I know what you mean
The Ktinga is an ancient ship that was updated from the even more ancient D-7 . Instead of creating an entirely different ship. They refitted old ships with new technology. This would make it compared to the Constitution class refit.