This brings back memories! I was mechanized infantry in the late 80's in the Bradley. These things were a joke to fire. Your aiming was done through a vision block. This put your vision about 1 foot above the weapon. To load the things you had to raise the back of the weapon very high in the air to change the magazine. Which meant you had about one trigger pull to walk your rounds on target. By the time you got the rounds to go where you want them, it was time to reload the weapon, this made your work to aim the weapon useless because you had to start over. There was a brass catcher inside the Bradley with an integrated exhaust hose that attaches to the gun via a pin that slid into a hole in the top of the carry handle. The weapon itself fired fantastically fast and reliably. You just couldn't hit squat with it. It was neat seeing one of these things again, thanks Ian!!
rV iesneS AR-15 100 Round mags are one. Unreliable, there was often inadequate feeding and misfires. Two. In a cramped Armored Vehicle it would be very annoying to be stuck with a double drum mag and three those things are heavy, as the commenter said you have to lift the weapon into the air in order to reload it. (and I think those things weren’t even in military service at all).
@@aturkishgamer9790 At a certain point I just wonder why they didn't just use a light machine gun. At least it wouldn't constantly need to be reloaded if it was belt fed.
That damn thing was the most hated pos we had to take with us to the field. I don’t know of one person who had to use it who liked it. If you shot it inside the Bradley it filled up the inside with smoke, brass, and magazines, what an effing mess.
THE TEXAS GUN GUY Yeah, but when you need it, your really going to need it. Particularly if some Soviet Superman is about to feed you an RPG. What it really needs is a reliable double drum 100rd+ magazine, bigger trigger that you can get two fingers on, a brass catcher/spend round chute, butt stock and basic sights.
ehm ehm and why cant the troops use their rifles like in the BMP-1? Cause america and we dont give a shit about tax payer money lets invent an over complex idea that will bring us more money, logic
This definitely isn't an ideal application for a direct impingement system. They should've used a piston system that vented the gas outside the vehicle.
It saved some guys in 2004 when their Bradley was ambushed and the insurgents threw the track. The PFW was used instead of the standard rifle due the the tight confines of the Bradley. You have to think about this like a pistol for the Bradley. It's only really used if the turret cannot depress or people are swarming the vehicle.
You didn't mention how the troops would accidentally leave them mounted into the main door ports. so when the main door was dropped it would bend the barrels off of the rifles.
@Gahlok12 The Bradley has firing ports on the door and on the side. On the side, you can just leave the M231s screwed into the port all the time, simplifying the whole "leave it in the Bradley all the time" procedure. If you tried to open the door with an M231 screwed into the door firing port, the barrel would impact the body of the vehicle and then the weight of the opening door would bend the barrel. Hopefully nobody managed to do it twice.
When we deployed to Kuwait for OIF1 in 2003, we kicked around the idea of using these as SMG's to assist with MOUT. The plan was to take one recoil spring out and give them to SAW and 240 gunners when we had to do raids. The idea went no where when we decided that the SAW was still better that the 231's and the 240's were better used as local support once we secured the house. It was a lesson in going to war with the tools you have instead of the tools you want. C co, 1/22 inf, 4-id.
Sounds like the tool you had (the 249) should have just had the barrel hardware to lock into the firing ports of the Bradley, and those been the only mucking around anyone did with firing ports. Did you use the firing ports at all? Were they practical in the American style of fighting? I know the Soviets in the BMP-1 and 2 expected to be driving over irradiated or gassed trenches and use their AK's in the ports to suppress those long enfilade targets. I don't know if that specific use applied to American forces even in theory.
The point of the firing port weapon was that they were way more compact than any other rifle or machine gun we had. the SAW's we had were the older full size models. there likely wouldn't have been room to fully depress the SAW's muzzle once connected to the vehicle, since we would have had to elevate the butt end. Also, the Brad's had a weapon exhaust system that was supposed to evacuate the smoke from the firing port weapons if used. The hoses would clamp over the the upper receiver near the ejection port. The spring clamps wouldn't work on the SAW's feed tray cover. The M2-A2 ODS (Operation Desert Storm) Bradley's we had only had the two firing ports in the ramp, the other firing ports in the hull were sealed. We never trained how to use the firing port weapons while in the vehicle. The firing port weapons would not have been practical. they were only meant to be suppressive. The shooter would have had to use the vision blocks (think of them as solid periscopes) to observe the tracers and impact. If the Brad's were going to drop ramp for dismount in an area under fire, suppressive fire from the coax machine gun in the turret and the other brad's in the section or platoon would have been more useful. Though, we dismounts would have preferred retreating to a safer area, dismounting, and then re-engaging.
irongunner1221 we had the same idea took them out to test and found that it was impossible to hold onto it after 2 mags and impossible to keep it fed. Killer troop 3/3 armored cav
In later OIFs they did issue M231s to Humvee gunners as secondary weapons to the "main gun" M-2, M-240, or Mk 19. because there were not enough M-249s to go around. Basically an "immediate suppression" weapon for counter-ambush etc. IDK where they got them from and we never had any, but I saw some units with "screw barrels" sticking up from the turret rear brackets.
There is a minimum price based upon the rifle, it isn't listed to prevent people from just paying the bare minimum price or being discouraged from bidding. Bidding is based on competition and value, it didn't sell because it is a pos gun. The gun is so bad that you'd need a lot of custom parts to fire it, and it really isn't that historic. It would only be useful to someone who owns a bradley but its a massive risk.
@@Logan-zp8bi Or someone who enjoys collecting pieces of US Military history... My neighbor would’ve loved to have one of these in his collection. He’s got an M16A1, A2, A4, original first gen AR15, etc... If it was used by the US Army, or any branch really, prior to 2008, he likely owns an example.
Hell, I would absolutely love one of these things too, not to shoot from a Bradley but to have it as a room broom and a fun range toy that turns heads when you dump 30 rounds in 1.2 seconds
The effort to put firing ports on the Bradley was because of the Soviet Union rolling out their BMP-1 Infantry Fighting Vehicle and utterly terrifying everyone on the other side of the Fulda Gap. The BMP-1 was designed as an infantry vehicle for conducting battle in a nuclear war. So it had firing ports along the back of the hull that soldiers could use to shoot from inside without getting all that icky external "fallout" on themselves. Everyone in NATO freaked out and *assumed* the Soviets had to have a brilliant, war-winning idea on their hands - what could we possibly do to match the BMP-1? So everyone started looking for ways to modify their vehicles to be used in the same way. I think the Bradley was the only one that got into service before everyone realized it was in fact a terminally impractical idea. They don't even bother putting firing ports on the later versions of the BMP. As to the BMP-1 itself, it turned out to be a paper-skinned "armored" vehicle that is food for any weapon that isn't a Small Arm. But boy did it scare people when it showed up!
The German Marder vehicle also had firing ports and they had the same problem: how to use them while preserving the NBC seal. The Germans adapted an Uzi SMG in a similar fashion to this, which, given the limited effective range of a gun aimed through a vision block/periscope, was probably about as useful. Interestingly, the Soviet's answer to this was simple: don't use the firing poerts under NBC conditions. Their ports were simple holes in the hull through which the infantry could use their standard weapons.
The soviets used an overpressure NBC system in the BMP. The passengers an crew were thus protected so long as the machinery was operable, even with the firing ports open.
The M231 PFW solved one nasty problem. Namely: Operating in the NBC environment. If you had your primary M16 sticking outside the Bradley and you got hit with chemical weapons and then pulled it in to exit the vehicle you would very likely contaminate the inside of the Bradley. The BFV had an NBC filter and overpressure system so that the troops didn't have to stay in MOPP4 constantly. (Spend 10 hours in an NBC suite and you'd understand)
Which was still a solution in search of a problem. Port firing from IFV/APCs was, for all intents and purposes, completely useless. Certainly not worth the time, effort, and cost that they induced in the M2/M3 + M231. If you're in an NBC environment, the likelihood you will ever be in a situation where port firing is useful approaches negative infinity. Heck, even in a standard environment the utility of a port-firing weapon is negligible.
Nostalgic mostly but true that back in late 80s early 90s U.S. Army drilled NBC to a higher level than today! I used one of these dismounted as OPFOR in NTC, with miles and a blank adaptor! some what heavier than an M16A2 but 2 X the firing rate and wow! carbon was thick after 100 plus blanks the adapter had to sit over night in solvent tank! Oh wait I think I used an M60 MILES laser with sheet metal and cardboard. OPFOR secret!
In my unit, it was not at all uncommon to "appropriate" one of these from the Bradley to use for breaching and clearing operations in Iraq. One troop would kick open the door, the next would stick the 231 in and sweep the room with a full 30 rounds. The high rate of fire was useful because it meant you pretty much saturated the space with bullets prior to rushing in. Incidentally, these were meant to be used to "clear the ramp" before the infantry squad would dismount the Bradley. Don't think I ever actually saw one used for it's intended purpose.
As for why not use the M16 the troops already carried, I presume it has to do with the close confines of the Brad. The shorter 231 can be swept side to side, back and forth rapidly without needing to swing the much longer M16 around inside the thing. And again the high rate fire is great for getting lots of bullets into a small area quickly. But as I say, never saw one used in the "proper" way.
They sweep the room technically. The only way they can do that is to Kick down the door as somewhat of an entry point. Before they enter, the M231 Sweeps the room real quick and then they storm inside. Im not sure if this is accurate but its what i see.
Those old surplus RPGs are pretty much useless against modern main battle tanks, tanks that haven't been properly updated since the 90s can take RPG-7 hits with minimal damage and that's assuming they're actually using anti tank rockets made to correct specifications. These days you're more likely to see improvised rockets and aside from hopefully flying towards the enemy and exploding, they usually don't have any of the very important features that a simple rocket propelled explosive should have, like a contact trigger, any kind of safety at all or anything resembling accuracy.
It's not the Huns they had to worry about when they designed this thing, it was the Ivans and their flaming Molotov cocktails thrown from 20-30 feet away. A stream of 1100rpm tracers will swat those pesky upstarts away!
Matthew Caughey im sure there are leaders that are stupid enough nowadays even in not "thirdworld countries" and arent what people would consider "war criminal jokes of leaders"
when i was in the army in the late 90s we would take out a spring or 2 ( i forget which 1s ) to slow the fire rate down and use them for room clearing ( spray and pray ) . they were very good for that short ,reliable. other than that we never used them in my unit . cool vid .
I read somewhere that the rational behind the Port Firing Weapon was so troops wouldn't have to open a port and stick their personal weapon out, there by compromising the NBC seal in the vehical. The Bradley was developed in the 70`s with a ground war on the European continent in mind, in which nuclear fallout was a real possibility, so I guess it made sense then.
We were told that the m231 was to fight from inside the vehicle and avoid contamination from NBC/ Nuke Bio Chem . But I suspect it falls into that category of taking a marginal at best idea and throwing as much money as possible at it. Over 5 billion dollars tossed at ACU camo then dropped, oops!
I stand corrected, I use that as my standard example of a multi purpose multi tool that never replaces the real tool you actually need. Often it seems that if the Army wanted a new helicopter and the marines would like a new amphibious vehicle but the air force would like a new ground cargo vehicle then somebody will site an inter service report, toss the phrase "commonality of parts" around and before you know it we have a amphibious cargo helicopter which doesn't do anything well on the way.
From what I understand, the reason this beat the other FPW contenders was that the threads on the gas block for the port made a better airtight seal than the others, since it was totally gonna be Bradleys vs BMP's dodging Davy Crockett bombs and fighting on an Atomic battlefield.
I was stationed at Ft. Knox, KY when this weapon was being tested for use in both the M2 and M3 Bradley AFV. You would not believe the "political" infighting that even the idea generated among the brass benny types all the way up to the Pentagon. A friend of mine at the time was assigned to 2/6 Cav and was involved in the testing process and he HATED the damn things because when all the positions were in use (weapons firing) the troop compartment filled with gun smoke making it really hard for the soldiers to breath! In addition there were numerous parts breakages and stoppages that resulted from the weapons overheating. Every "Why?....What were they thinking?" question you alluded to came up back then. Bear in mind this was all back in the early 1980s and for the rest of my time in the Army I never them used in a Bradley or even in an arms room. If the truth be known I had almost forgotten (no play on words intended) that the XM231, as it was known back then, had ever existed. Keep up the great work you do!
Got to hold and play a bit with one of these during a military exchange program with the National Guard, and i was really surprised how front heavy it was, and how strong the recoil spring was. Deffinetly a neat piece of firearm though
My guess is that it's a solution to NBC protection requirements. Having a sealed ball pintle mounted gun doesn't compromise that in the same way as an open firing port would for troop carried weapons.
This is where the movie Pentagon Wars is relevant! It is a satire on the development of the Bradley, but it's really spot on too. I recommend looking it up! It's a really good movie.
What other APC's does the army have? M113 is obsolete. Striker isn't an APC any more than the Bradley. MRAPs are specialty APCs. No good on a battlefield. The AAV is also obsolete. What does that leave?
which proves they are not doing their job as infantry transport and support now does it? When they are doing tanks job and not helping their dismounts, nice true fact mate
Ah the Bradley. "A troop transport that can't carry troops, a reconnaissance vehicle that's too conspicuous to do reconnaissance... and a quasi-tank that has less armor than a snowblower, but has enough ammo to take out half of D.C."
Ah, the guy quoting a satirical movie based on a book written by a guy who had a serious grudge against the military and little understanding of the program he was a part of. By the way, none of that is true. The Bradley is perfectly capable of carrying a half squad and giving them fire support, it does the reconnaissance job pretty well, and it does protect against 14.5mm armor piercing fire even before you install the add-on armor packages. These points I made were all true when the movie was made, by the way.
As a Grunt from the 80's (Actually an FO, but nobody knows that is), I am STILL annoyed that they didn't simply put out a new run of Grease Guns. Personally, I never actually carried a rifle or any other type of gun. If we were going to get over-run, I would just call in a 3-round FFE on our position and holler "Splash" at the 5 second mark.
when we went to iraq [1st one] and i assume before. all we had were long m16's. and in iraq we only had the burst fire versions. i heard units were using these for bunker clearing because of their high rate of fire and overall dependability. as for the tracer "stream" we tried using all tracers in our rifles and at mid day could not see the tracers any better than if we just had our standard 1 every 4. the thermals on the tank can "see" every round so i assume so can the Bradley's.
What company? C co 1/22 INF here. We didn't use them for bunker clearing, our CSM told us to knock it off. We kept the standard tracer mix in our mags when we could get tracers. Once we got into Tikrit, we hardly ever got into fights with the Brad's along.
2nd armored division [fwd] we were attached to the 1st infantry division. we used mostly handfuls of russian,[Syrian,Jordanian] grenades. but our supply folks were asked if we had any stocks to spare. i guess they were trying to make them more manageable
I must respectfully correct The Man, but the part called the Firing Hammer doesn't actually strike the Firing Pin, but rather it is in continuous contact with the back of the firing pin and keeps it in its most far forward position throughout the bolt carrier's travel. Because the firing pin is pinned into the bolt carrier instead of the bolt like in other types of guns, the firing pin can't touch a primer until the bolt carrier is forward and the bolt is locked. Part of the reason for the extreme rate of fire is that this system has essentially zero lock time, as soon as the bolt locks, it fires. As an AR guy, I was extremely interested in how this thing worked when I was introduced to it in the Army. I found it reliable, but completely useless for its intended purpose because of its too small ammo capacity and the fact that we had to shoot without sights, looking through a -15° view tank periscope, which cause the shooter to shoot ridiculously high until he could correct by watching the tracers impact, but with the high rate of fire the mag would be empty before you could get on target.
I had the chance to crew an M2 IFV in the late 80's. We were told the concept of the screw barrel was from an idea that the M2 would get an NBC over-pressure system and they wanted a good seal. The armored ball is tight enough with no gaps. It is better than the port firing systems on most vehicles that simply give you a 2in loophole. At least normal small arms fire would not slip thorough. If you know the story of the Bradley, it was all things to all people. There was a concept that the M2 would be rolling through enemy trenches in a blitz, on a contaminated battlefield, and the dismounts could "scratch the back" of other armor using the M231. In reality, it was nearly impossible to train with the M231 as designed. The range fans for normal Table VIII would prohibit such a thing. No Commander wants to see his trim vanes, sponsons, antennas and view ports scarred up from "back scratching". The best you could do would be to put the M2 parallel with a flat range and fire from one side. It really just amounted to fam fire. Sort of a waste of time and ammo for such a low use niche weapon. I know guys in GW1 who did dismount it in live fire training prior to the invasion. They practiced clearing trenches with it. Soldiers loved it, but the basic load was a gunner followed by and ammo bearer with a satchel full of mags. It was never used in combat.
A few of the older grunts I work with used it with an ACOG mounted to the “carry handle” with the old A2 ACOG mount. They claimed it worked until SGM caught then with it in the DFAC.
Well if you watch the movie "The Pentagon Wars" and if it just marginally true to how things played out, it won't surprise you that a gun such as this came about and was accepted through the military channels.
I think that this gun was actually referenced indirectly in the "development evolution of the Bradley" scene in that movie, where they reference the port holes during development of the Bradley.
It was crazily accurate to the history of the vehicle development. That we managed to make something decent out of that POS is due to a large amount of money and continued pressure from below, not because it was a fine vehicle. The original standards would have made a better vehicle Had egos not got involved in it, it would be a much better vehicle today. It's better than the 113, but it was definitely the result of a Frankenstein style design process.
The Bradley family still contains every gripe contained in that movie. Its exactly what it needed to be (a BMP equivalent) even as it started as an APC it evolved it a great vehicle capable of taking on armored enemies without heavy fire support. Simply look at its 1st Gulf War experience. (And that the Pentagon wars was written by a disgruntled Air Force Col as opposed to someone who actual knows armored warfare)
As of 2016 when I was at fort hood Texas. 1st cavalry division first brigade combat team still has these with their infantry line company's. The technical Manuel for the weapon actually classified the m231 as a sub machine gun
What I was taught about this by one of my old team leaders was that these were preferred for the space inside a Bradley and at least by our time in the M16a2/M4 didn't have full auto
Built a Tamiya model of an Abrams tank back in the 90s and the figures came with M231 PFW rifles. Wasn't a lot of info on them back then, so it's great to finally learn about these rifles!! Thanks Ian
I've heard from a few guys who served in Iraq in 2003 that these were briefly a status symbol among dismounted guys who had managed to "acquire" them and decided to use them as carbines. The Fun Police ended up making them return them to the Bradleys.
Besides the reason several others have mentioned previously (NBC sealing while the M231 is installed) another reason the Army used the M231 instead of the M16 is the brass catcher and gas recovery hoses would not fit on a standard M16. The lack of a brass deflector and forward assist gave the receiver a flat surface to mount the hose and catcher assembly. To be honest, it didnt work perfectly, but it did help keep gases from building up in the back of our track.
The movies is funny, but it's a comedy, not a documentary and should be treated as such. It's full of misinformation and misinterpretation. It's on a level of "M4 Sherman was a piece of shit" and "M16 jammed ALL the time, unlike AK47".
The firing ports on the bradley came about because the Soviets had them on some of their APCs. I'm thinking that the firing port weapon came about because of the desire to NBC seal the Bradley. There are no features on the M16 that would really let you do that, but a dedicated firing port weapon could have features like that threaded endcap built into it. I believe these guns are still in inventory somewhere. I've heard rumors of Bradley crews using them as dismounts as makeshift SAW replacements to supplement the squad firepower.
Put a buttstock on it for shouldering in emergency. Put a 100 or 150 round giant magazine in it. You now have indeed a fairly usable in case of emergency SAW.
I nearly did a backflip my first time shooting that thing. My sgt told me and my driver to load only 10rds and we’re like wtf why when we had 30td mags. So we went to go test fire them at then same time and we both ended up pointing the gun at the sky after those 10 rounds. We looked at each other and said HOLY SHIT
the bradley is supposed to be nbc / radiation hardened. this requires a positive pressure seal on the fighting compartment. my guess would be that the "rifle" would screw into a mount with a heavy gasket or seal around the firing port. to allow firing, but keep pressure loss to a minimum.
This gun is a inspiration for the Patriot, a very important weapon from the Metal Gear series. Those are the lyrics to Snake Eater, the theme song for Metal Gear Solid 3, which is where the Patriot appears.
www.imfdb.org/wiki/Metal_gear_solid_3#.22Patriot.22 'It is partially inspired by the real-life M231 Firing Port Weapon' It's a chimera based on no real firearm. However, the Rocky Mountain Arms Patriot might be another one.
The kinda gun that makes me appreciate the old flick called Pengon Wars, a dramatization of the development of the Bradley vehicle... Pretty funny and well worth watching
Ian, Sir, Your are a fine example of a Scott Scientist. Now , with you to hear, I have three to like. Excellent presentations. A guy that could make the workings of a washing machine fascinating, has blessed us with useful and enlightining tours of what interest those like me very much. Thank you, Bj
I saw an M-3 with port firing threads at FT. Bragg, but I believe it was designed for use in WWII era vehicles. I wish I could remember more about it now.
I got to try one free handed about 14 years ago. Absolutely horrible trigger pull (felt like 20lbs LoL). Only thing worse was the gyrojet when you heard a click. Watched a grown man almost cry because of that...
Best setup for the m231 - global offensive scope - muzzle booster - wire stock - skeleton grip - m855 conv. It has 0 recoil and 100000000000% accuracy!!
best setup for the M231: -carbine barrel (so the name changes to Patriot) -M855 (so it actually looks like the Patriot) infinity recoil instead of infinite ammo, but the 100 rounds guarantee that you'll hit someone at least enough times to kill them
I read somewhere that this was developed because it was found that the M-16 was too long and unwieldy inside the M2 troop compartment to be used from the firing ports.
Thanks for the video, Ian. Those are definitely some curious and interesting internals, but it still looks like it would be a pain in the ass for troops to use it. I could only imagine how much brass the vehicle would fill up with after having no choice but to use one of those.
High rate of fire is for target exposure time, also they have a modified brass catcher with a gas ventilation hose that is attached to the inside of the vic, there is little to no ventilation inside the crew compartment. We had a few of them, but never used them. looked them over, then never saw them again. And yes they are still in issue.
This gun is extremely similliar with a patriot from metal gear solid 3 it just has a 30 round box stanag mag instead of 100 round kci drum mag and a long barrel.
I carried one of these in the turret of the Bradley in Iraq. Pretty handy little thing. You're not kidding about the rate of fire. The biggest problem was finding a mag that wasn't shit that could keep up.
Carbine length rifles didnt come out for a while, dissipators had short barrels but rifle stocks. This thing looks significantly shorter and lighter than an M16.
I only know about this gun from a game on Roblox, It's called Phantom forces. It's the 2nd most popular FPS on the platform and the M231 is one of the last assault rifles you can unlock. It has insane recoil and an insane fire rate. It basically goes straight up after you fire it for 2 seconds
Various previous comments have pointed out a few of the problems with Firing Ports on IFVs but they don't cover all of them. 1. Keeping the ports themselves clear and maintaining enough space to use and swing the weapon introduces lots of limitations on stowage, both inside and outside the vehicle, which limits the ability to carry stuff of more general use than equipment designed for a relatively rare situation. 2. Firing Ports produce weaknesses in the armour, quite apart from the NBC sealing issues others have mentioned. 3. Combining those two, keeping the ports clear places severe limits on Applique Armour. You will note that the UK IFV, Warrior, never featured FP in the design, despite howls from the Press and some elements of the services. There were, and are, good reasons for this - yes the 'close assault by Infantry' situation does happen but there are other countermeasures that can be adopted, like mutual support, that are no more imperfect than drilling holes of limited utility in your AFV.
By far has to be the coolest M16 platform rifle. If the ATF didn't have their ban on production of open bolt semi auto firearms for sale I'd so buy my own. If I was in the military and I saw a wrecked Bradley on the battlefield I'd pick one of these up and make myself an improvised PDW. So damn awesome. I'd ditch my sidearm for one of these bad boys. like a mini A10. BRRAAAATTTT! *Edit Ik this is a full auto firearm, but I bet you someone could easily make this thing a semi auto open bolt gun with a little bit of tinkering. Putting it into production from there wouldn't be hard.
My guess would be that they wanted your own rifle to be as untouched as possible so that it's ready to go immediately after bailing out of the transport. So you're not bailing out with, say, a magazine of only 3 rounds remaining and may be overheating already.
I just left command of a Mechanized Infantry company. We never took them to the field with us, or used them for anything. The only time we shot then was on a range. I agree that they are impractical for 99% of problems, but are incredibly fun to fire. The Army is also getting away from them entirely. All of the companies were turning theirs in to depot when I left.
"Failed to sell at auction"
Probably because y'all didn't bundle an M2 Bradley with it.
Haha, exactly
👍
Pentagon wars reference?
BOT Noob_at_everything wdym? The pentagon wars was based on real events?
God I could use a military grade door right now
This brings back memories! I was mechanized infantry in the late 80's in the Bradley. These things were a joke to fire. Your aiming was done through a vision block. This put your vision about 1 foot above the weapon. To load the things you had to raise the back of the weapon very high in the air to change the magazine. Which meant you had about one trigger pull to walk your rounds on target. By the time you got the rounds to go where you want them, it was time to reload the weapon, this made your work to aim the weapon useless because you had to start over. There was a brass catcher inside the Bradley with an integrated exhaust hose that attaches to the gun via a pin that slid into a hole in the top of the carry handle. The weapon itself fired fantastically fast and reliably. You just couldn't hit squat with it.
It was neat seeing one of these things again, thanks Ian!!
Should’ve put on a 100 round mag
rV iesneS AR-15 100 Round mags are one. Unreliable, there was often inadequate feeding and misfires. Two. In a cramped Armored Vehicle it would be very annoying to be stuck with a double drum mag and three those things are heavy, as the commenter said you have to lift the weapon into the air in order to reload it. (and I think those things weren’t even in military service at all).
@@aturkishgamer9790 At a certain point I just wonder why they didn't just use a light machine gun. At least it wouldn't constantly need to be reloaded if it was belt fed.
TQ for serving veteran.
TQ for serving veteran.
That damn thing was the most hated pos we had to take with us to the field. I don’t know of one person who had to use it who liked it. If you shot it inside the Bradley it filled up the inside with smoke, brass, and magazines, what an effing mess.
THE TEXAS GUN GUY thanks that's an interesting bit of info.
THE TEXAS GUN GUY Yeah, but when you need it, your really going to need it. Particularly if some Soviet Superman is about to feed you an RPG. What it really needs is a reliable double drum 100rd+ magazine, bigger trigger that you can get two fingers on, a brass catcher/spend round chute, butt stock and basic sights.
ehm ehm and why cant the troops use their rifles like in the BMP-1? Cause america and we dont give a shit about tax payer money lets invent an over complex idea that will bring us more money, logic
This definitely isn't an ideal application for a direct impingement system. They should've used a piston system that vented the gas outside the vehicle.
It saved some guys in 2004 when their Bradley was ambushed and the insurgents threw the track. The PFW was used instead of the standard rifle due the the tight confines of the Bradley. You have to think about this like a pistol for the Bradley. It's only really used if the turret cannot depress or people are swarming the vehicle.
Fun fact: if you use a drum mag shaped like an infinity symbol, it gets infinite ammo
What a Thrill
And infinite jams
@@fakedeadmau5701 Snake eater!
Yess this is why were here
If the colt lmg had the m231 fire rate I would look past the minecraft heat shield
You didn't mention how the troops would accidentally leave them mounted into the main door ports. so when the main door was dropped it would bend the barrels off of the rifles.
Krumlauf express!
I had totally forgotten this about t!
Börje Svensson yeah! DIY instant krumlauf!
Drew Strom they did what?
@Gahlok12 The Bradley has firing ports on the door and on the side. On the side, you can just leave the M231s screwed into the port all the time, simplifying the whole "leave it in the Bradley all the time" procedure. If you tried to open the door with an M231 screwed into the door firing port, the barrel would impact the body of the vehicle and then the weight of the opening door would bend the barrel. Hopefully nobody managed to do it twice.
When we deployed to Kuwait for OIF1 in 2003, we kicked around the idea of using these as SMG's to assist with MOUT. The plan was to take one recoil spring out and give them to SAW and 240 gunners when we had to do raids. The idea went no where when we decided that the SAW was still better that the 231's and the 240's were better used as local support once we secured the house.
It was a lesson in going to war with the tools you have instead of the tools you want. C co, 1/22 inf, 4-id.
Sounds like the tool you had (the 249) should have just had the barrel hardware to lock into the firing ports of the Bradley, and those been the only mucking around anyone did with firing ports. Did you use the firing ports at all? Were they practical in the American style of fighting? I know the Soviets in the BMP-1 and 2 expected to be driving over irradiated or gassed trenches and use their AK's in the ports to suppress those long enfilade targets. I don't know if that specific use applied to American forces even in theory.
The point of the firing port weapon was that they were way more compact than any other rifle or machine gun we had. the SAW's we had were the older full size models. there likely wouldn't have been room to fully depress the SAW's muzzle once connected to the vehicle, since we would have had to elevate the butt end. Also, the Brad's had a weapon exhaust system that was supposed to evacuate the smoke from the firing port weapons if used. The hoses would clamp over the the upper receiver near the ejection port. The spring clamps wouldn't work on the SAW's feed tray cover.
The M2-A2 ODS (Operation Desert Storm) Bradley's we had only had the two firing ports in the ramp, the other firing ports in the hull were sealed. We never trained how to use the firing port weapons while in the vehicle. The firing port weapons would not have been practical. they were only meant to be suppressive. The shooter would have had to use the vision blocks (think of them as solid periscopes) to observe the tracers and impact. If the Brad's were going to drop ramp for dismount in an area under fire, suppressive fire from the coax machine gun in the turret and the other brad's in the section or platoon would have been more useful.
Though, we dismounts would have preferred retreating to a safer area, dismounting, and then re-engaging.
irongunner1221 we had the same idea took them out to test and found that it was impossible to hold onto it after 2 mags and impossible to keep it fed. Killer troop 3/3 armored cav
In later OIFs they did issue M231s to Humvee gunners as secondary weapons to the "main gun" M-2, M-240, or Mk 19. because there were not enough M-249s to go around. Basically an "immediate suppression" weapon for counter-ambush etc. IDK where they got them from and we never had any, but I saw some units with "screw barrels" sticking up from the turret rear brackets.
We're you part of the first wave?
I love that no one thought to omit the flash hider from a gun that is only to be used with tracer ammunition.
Looks like one of those tryhard m4 setups I see everyone use nowadays
yep. no stock, M16 barrel.
Gun Troller well they just nerfed the no stock attachment on all guns and it really sucks now lol
No stock, short barrel, 9mm magazine, and rifle scope
@@ght_1
true. I never used no stock, I always used the CQC stock.
@@CVRMedia2
burst perk
If this used to be in a port but it’s not anymore is it an export
Get out! xD
Dad, is that you?
Well played sir.
Zachary Sahnger lol lame but like worthy
Great pun
"Failed to sell at auction"
That's only cause I wasn't there
There is a minimum price based upon the rifle, it isn't listed to prevent people from just paying the bare minimum price or being discouraged from bidding. Bidding is based on competition and value, it didn't sell because it is a pos gun. The gun is so bad that you'd need a lot of custom parts to fire it, and it really isn't that historic. It would only be useful to someone who owns a bradley but its a massive risk.
@@Logan-zp8bi Or someone who enjoys collecting pieces of US Military history... My neighbor would’ve loved to have one of these in his collection. He’s got an M16A1, A2, A4, original first gen AR15, etc... If it was used by the US Army, or any branch really, prior to 2008, he likely owns an example.
Hell, I would absolutely love one of these things too, not to shoot from a Bradley but to have it as a room broom and a fun range toy that turns heads when you dump 30 rounds in 1.2 seconds
The effort to put firing ports on the Bradley was because of the Soviet Union rolling out their BMP-1 Infantry Fighting Vehicle and utterly terrifying everyone on the other side of the Fulda Gap. The BMP-1 was designed as an infantry vehicle for conducting battle in a nuclear war. So it had firing ports along the back of the hull that soldiers could use to shoot from inside without getting all that icky external "fallout" on themselves.
Everyone in NATO freaked out and *assumed* the Soviets had to have a brilliant, war-winning idea on their hands - what could we possibly do to match the BMP-1? So everyone started looking for ways to modify their vehicles to be used in the same way. I think the Bradley was the only one that got into service before everyone realized it was in fact a terminally impractical idea. They don't even bother putting firing ports on the later versions of the BMP.
As to the BMP-1 itself, it turned out to be a paper-skinned "armored" vehicle that is food for any weapon that isn't a Small Arm. But boy did it scare people when it showed up!
The German Marder vehicle also had firing ports and they had the same problem: how to use them while preserving the NBC seal. The Germans adapted an Uzi SMG in a similar fashion to this, which, given the limited effective range of a gun aimed through a vision block/periscope, was probably about as useful. Interestingly, the Soviet's answer to this was simple: don't use the firing poerts under NBC conditions. Their ports were simple holes in the hull through which the infantry could use their standard weapons.
The soviets used an overpressure NBC system in the BMP. The passengers an crew were thus protected so long as the machinery was operable, even with the firing ports open.
But man is it fun to drive the BMP-1!
A Nonymous While the BMP can be effective as shown in Syria and Ukraine, it’s also a death trap which is a nice feature to have for the enemy.
Takahashi Yuuki Yes ive seen the cannon at full fire rate its amazing but it starts to cook off
The M231 PFW solved one nasty problem. Namely: Operating in the NBC environment. If you had your primary M16 sticking outside the Bradley and you got hit with chemical weapons and then pulled it in to exit the vehicle you would very likely contaminate the inside of the Bradley. The BFV had an NBC filter and overpressure system so that the troops didn't have to stay in MOPP4 constantly.
(Spend 10 hours in an NBC suite and you'd understand)
Which was still a solution in search of a problem. Port firing from IFV/APCs was, for all intents and purposes, completely useless. Certainly not worth the time, effort, and cost that they induced in the M2/M3 + M231. If you're in an NBC environment, the likelihood you will ever be in a situation where port firing is useful approaches negative infinity. Heck, even in a standard environment the utility of a port-firing weapon is negligible.
Nostalgic mostly but true that back in late 80s early 90s U.S. Army drilled NBC to a higher level than today! I used one of these dismounted as OPFOR in NTC, with miles and a blank adaptor! some what heavier than an M16A2 but 2 X the firing rate and wow! carbon was thick after 100 plus blanks the adapter had to sit over night in solvent tank! Oh wait I think I used an M60 MILES laser with sheet metal and cardboard. OPFOR secret!
In my unit, it was not at all uncommon to "appropriate" one of these from the Bradley to use for breaching and clearing operations in Iraq. One troop would kick open the door, the next would stick the 231 in and sweep the room with a full 30 rounds. The high rate of fire was useful because it meant you pretty much saturated the space with bullets prior to rushing in.
Incidentally, these were meant to be used to "clear the ramp" before the infantry squad would dismount the Bradley. Don't think I ever actually saw one used for it's intended purpose.
As for why not use the M16 the troops already carried, I presume it has to do with the close confines of the Brad. The shorter 231 can be swept side to side, back and forth rapidly without needing to swing the much longer M16 around inside the thing. And again the high rate fire is great for getting lots of bullets into a small area quickly.
But as I say, never saw one used in the "proper" way.
@@randomuser778 yeah I can see squads breaching with those. That's good life insurance right there
Why were you just kicking down doors and sweeping the room with it?
Random User idk much about the military and rules of engagement but that sounds extremely reckless
They sweep the room technically. The only way they can do that is to Kick down the door as somewhat of an entry point. Before they enter, the M231 Sweeps the room real quick and then they storm inside. Im not sure if this is accurate but its what i see.
Whatever happened to the stick-your-Webley-through-a-port-and-blast-the-hun-off-your-tank approach?
+Max Solution is simple. You dont open the windows in NBC conditions.
Squire ran out of weebly ammo
Those old surplus RPGs are pretty much useless against modern main battle tanks, tanks that haven't been properly updated since the 90s can take RPG-7 hits with minimal damage and that's assuming they're actually using anti tank rockets made to correct specifications.
These days you're more likely to see improvised rockets and aside from hopefully flying towards the enemy and exploding, they usually don't have any of the very important features that a simple rocket propelled explosive should have, like a contact trigger, any kind of safety at all or anything resembling accuracy.
It's not the Huns they had to worry about when they designed this thing, it was the Ivans and their flaming Molotov cocktails thrown from 20-30 feet away. A stream of 1100rpm tracers will swat those pesky upstarts away!
Matthew Caughey im sure there are leaders that are stupid enough nowadays even in not "thirdworld countries" and arent what people would consider "war criminal jokes of leaders"
"It's receiver is shaped like an infinity symbol"
You're pretty good
nah the quote is internal feeding mechanism
freedom symbol wouldve worked better, wait is that the dollar sign
A mix between an assault rifle, and a pistol. She really had some skills to be able to handle the astronomical recoil from the lack of a stock
It's the magazine, not the receiver, that is shaped like an infinity symbol
when i was in the army in the late 90s we would take out a spring or 2 ( i forget which 1s ) to slow the fire rate down and use them for room clearing ( spray and pray ) . they were very good for that short ,reliable. other than that we never used them in my unit . cool vid .
what did it slow down the rate to, 900rpm?
@@PapaJoJ
If that was reasonable enough for the Baguettes, it's reasonable enough for us.
@@cptTK421 Baguettes?
@@sam8404 Probably referring to the FAMAS rifle and its extremely high rate of fire.
Cool story bro! BUT....when you remove springs it actually INCREASES the cyclic rate if not inducing malfunctions..
I read somewhere that the rational behind the Port Firing Weapon was so troops wouldn't have to open a port and stick their personal weapon out, there by compromising the NBC seal in the vehical.
The Bradley was developed in the 70`s with a ground war on the European continent in mind, in which nuclear fallout was a real possibility, so I guess it made sense then.
Nuclear Fallout is always a constant threat.
We were told that the m231 was to fight from inside the vehicle and avoid contamination from NBC/ Nuke Bio Chem . But I suspect it falls into that category of taking a marginal at best idea and throwing as much money as possible at it. Over 5 billion dollars tossed at ACU camo then dropped, oops!
Those threads do not look sealed enough to withstand BC attacks to me :)
Good point. Open bolt means things besides oxygen can come in.
ACU is the uniform, UCP is the camouflage.
Hah, good point. Frankly, even a closed bolt gun is not gonna cut it.
I stand corrected, I use that as my standard example of a multi purpose multi tool that never replaces the real tool you actually need. Often it seems that if the Army wanted a new helicopter and the marines would like a new amphibious vehicle but the air force would like a new ground cargo vehicle then somebody will site an inter service report, toss the phrase "commonality of parts" around and before you know it we have a amphibious cargo helicopter which doesn't do anything well on the way.
From what I understand, the reason this beat the other FPW contenders was that the threads on the gas block for the port made a better airtight seal than the others, since it was totally gonna be Bradleys vs BMP's dodging Davy Crockett bombs and fighting on an Atomic battlefield.
I was stationed at Ft. Knox, KY when this weapon was being tested for use in both the M2 and M3 Bradley AFV. You would not believe the "political" infighting that even the idea generated among the brass benny types all the way up to the Pentagon. A friend of mine at the time was assigned to 2/6 Cav and was involved in the testing process and he HATED the damn things because when all the positions were in use (weapons firing) the troop compartment filled with gun smoke making it really hard for the soldiers to breath! In addition there were numerous parts breakages and stoppages that resulted from the weapons overheating. Every "Why?....What were they thinking?" question you alluded to came up back then. Bear in mind this was all back in the early 1980s and for the rest of my time in the Army I never them used in a Bradley or even in an arms room. If the truth be known I had almost forgotten (no play on words intended) that the XM231, as it was known back then, had ever existed. Keep up the great work you do!
would you say "Pentagon Wars" was accurate?
@@robrocksea 👍💯%
Ian's videos never fail to entertain and educate me. Thanks Ian
“Do you want me to put a sign on it in 50 languages saying: I’m a troop carrier, not a tank?”
Oh great, portholes
So the guys can stick their guns out and shoot whatever they can’t hit with their cannon
There's no room! The guys will have to wear the missiles as hats!
"We're not talking about a pair of Levi's, I know! I know!"
Got to hold and play a bit with one of these during a military exchange program with the National Guard, and i was really surprised how front heavy it was, and how strong the recoil spring was. Deffinetly a neat piece of firearm though
My guess is that it's a solution to NBC protection requirements. Having a sealed ball pintle mounted gun doesn't compromise that in the same way as an open firing port would for troop carried weapons.
In 2012 when my friend got out of the Army they still had M231s in Bradleys.
Everything about the Bradley's procurement is a lesson in how not to buy a weapons system, it is amazing that it came out alright in the end.
"All right" is generous for an APC that can't swim.
yet the US goverment is doing it over and over again without the US tax payer giving a shit
This is where the movie Pentagon Wars is relevant! It is a satire on the development of the Bradley, but it's really spot on too. I recommend looking it up! It's a really good movie.
What other APC's does the army have? M113 is obsolete. Striker isn't an APC any more than the Bradley. MRAPs are specialty APCs. No good on a battlefield. The AAV is also obsolete. What does that leave?
which proves they are not doing their job as infantry transport and support now does it? When they are doing tanks job and not helping their dismounts, nice true fact mate
I am pretty sure these existed purely to keep those track guys busy cleaning things.
Song in Silence still very much In use and fully auto.
Song in Silence you pretty much only ever see them in pog units that have 113s or Bradley's. But they shoot like a minigun, it's hilarious.
Obviously, because we weren't kept busy enough cleaning every other goddamned thing on the post.
Ah the Bradley. "A troop transport that can't carry troops, a reconnaissance vehicle that's too conspicuous to do reconnaissance... and a quasi-tank that has less armor than a snowblower, but has enough ammo to take out half of D.C."
Ah, the guy quoting a satirical movie based on a book written by a guy who had a serious grudge against the military and little understanding of the program he was a part of. By the way, none of that is true. The Bradley is perfectly capable of carrying a half squad and giving them fire support, it does the reconnaissance job pretty well, and it does protect against 14.5mm armor piercing fire even before you install the add-on armor packages. These points I made were all true when the movie was made, by the way.
Saw them used for near side ambushes in Iraq. It was an odd weapon but then again the Bradley is too.
As a Grunt from the 80's (Actually an FO, but nobody knows that is), I am STILL annoyed that they didn't simply put out a new run of Grease Guns.
Personally, I never actually carried a rifle or any other type of gun. If we were going to get over-run, I would just call in a 3-round FFE on our position and holler "Splash" at the 5 second mark.
How did this end up on the civilian market?
I don't know.
I imagine it was sold as surplus when the military (quickly) realized it was not particularly useful and/or phased out.
the same way we have a magazine for the ACR program.
Tobi C. Perhaps it, “disappeared” and ended up on NFA in early 1986? Just guessing.
I'd love to know as well. I'm gonna guess its provenance is available from JDJ.
when we went to iraq [1st one] and i assume before. all we had were long m16's. and in iraq we only had the burst fire versions. i heard units were using these for bunker clearing because of their high rate of fire and overall dependability. as for the tracer "stream" we tried using all tracers in our rifles and at mid day could not see the tracers any better than if we just had our standard 1 every 4. the thermals on the tank can "see" every round so i assume so can the Bradley's.
What company? C co 1/22 INF here. We didn't use them for bunker clearing, our CSM told us to knock it off. We kept the standard tracer mix in our mags when we could get tracers.
Once we got into Tikrit, we hardly ever got into fights with the Brad's along.
2nd armored division [fwd] we were attached to the 1st infantry division. we used mostly handfuls of russian,[Syrian,Jordanian] grenades. but our supply folks were asked if we had any stocks to spare. i guess they were trying to make them more manageable
What have the Gun Runners done to this assault carbine? It looks like its been through another nuclear war!
It's one of the weapons on this show that doesn't show up in Fallout: New Vegas's mod lists. One of the very few.
“It fires at 1100 to 1200 rpm, which is insanely fast for an m16”
Me: *starts grinning*
I must respectfully correct The Man, but the part called the Firing Hammer doesn't actually strike the Firing Pin, but rather it is in continuous contact with the back of the firing pin and keeps it in its most far forward position throughout the bolt carrier's travel. Because the firing pin is pinned into the bolt carrier instead of the bolt like in other types of guns, the firing pin can't touch a primer until the bolt carrier is forward and the bolt is locked. Part of the reason for the extreme rate of fire is that this system has essentially zero lock time, as soon as the bolt locks, it fires.
As an AR guy, I was extremely interested in how this thing worked when I was introduced to it in the Army. I found it reliable, but completely useless for its intended purpose because of its too small ammo capacity and the fact that we had to shoot without sights, looking through a -15° view tank periscope, which cause the shooter to shoot ridiculously high until he could correct by watching the tracers impact, but with the high rate of fire the mag would be empty before you could get on target.
Neat!
I had the chance to crew an M2 IFV in the late 80's. We were told the concept of the screw barrel was from an idea that the M2 would get an NBC over-pressure system and they wanted a good seal. The armored ball is tight enough with no gaps. It is better than the port firing systems on most vehicles that simply give you a 2in loophole. At least normal small arms fire would not slip thorough. If you know the story of the Bradley, it was all things to all people. There was a concept that the M2 would be rolling through enemy trenches in a blitz, on a contaminated battlefield, and the dismounts could "scratch the back" of other armor using the M231. In reality, it was nearly impossible to train with the M231 as designed. The range fans for normal Table VIII would prohibit such a thing. No Commander wants to see his trim vanes, sponsons, antennas and view ports scarred up from "back scratching". The best you could do would be to put the M2 parallel with a flat range and fire from one side. It really just amounted to fam fire. Sort of a waste of time and ammo for such a low use niche weapon. I know guys in GW1 who did dismount it in live fire training prior to the invasion. They practiced clearing trenches with it. Soldiers loved it, but the basic load was a gunner followed by and ammo bearer with a satchel full of mags. It was never used in combat.
A few of the older grunts I work with used it with an ACOG mounted to the “carry handle” with the old A2 ACOG mount. They claimed it worked until SGM caught then with it in the DFAC.
Whats fam fire? I didn't see anything that seemed related when I googled it
Familiarization Fire. Basically, fire a few magazines down range just to become familiar with the weapon. It is hardly training.
@@josephmeagher3145did they have a stock for it?
Phantom Forces players: *Hey look, it’s the Back Breaker*
xd
fr tho, the m231 absolutely shreds through people
Well if you watch the movie "The Pentagon Wars" and if it just marginally true to how things played out, it won't surprise you that a gun such as this came about and was accepted through the military channels.
I think that this gun was actually referenced indirectly in the "development evolution of the Bradley" scene in that movie, where they reference the port holes during development of the Bradley.
The Pentagon Wars was a retarded fluff piece. The Bradley family are fine vehicles and are a great addition to armored formations.
It was crazily accurate to the history of the vehicle development. That we managed to make something decent out of that POS is due to a large amount of money and continued pressure from below, not because it was a fine vehicle. The original standards would have made a better vehicle Had egos not got involved in it, it would be a much better vehicle today. It's better than the 113, but it was definitely the result of a Frankenstein style design process.
The Bradley family still contains every gripe contained in that movie. Its exactly what it needed to be (a BMP equivalent) even as it started as an APC it evolved it a great vehicle capable of taking on armored enemies without heavy fire support. Simply look at its 1st Gulf War experience. (And that the Pentagon wars was written by a disgruntled Air Force Col as opposed to someone who actual knows armored warfare)
Pentagon wars isn't a documentary.
Aim at enemy
The recoil : R O O F
It's a gental push
As of 2016 when I was at fort hood Texas. 1st cavalry division first brigade combat team still has these with their infantry line company's. The technical Manuel for the weapon actually classified the m231 as a sub machine gun
What I was taught about this by one of my old team leaders was that these were preferred for the space inside a Bradley and at least by our time in the M16a2/M4 didn't have full auto
Well known to be known to be used with a drum mag by a military ww-2 innovator against a one eyed commando in the fields of Siberia
Phantom forces players resisting the urge to put on +recoil attachments
Built a Tamiya model of an Abrams tank back in the 90s and the figures came with M231 PFW rifles. Wasn't a lot of info on them back then, so it's great to finally learn about these rifles!! Thanks Ian
I've heard from a few guys who served in Iraq in 2003 that these were briefly a status symbol among dismounted guys who had managed to "acquire" them and decided to use them as carbines. The Fun Police ended up making them return them to the Bradleys.
Besides the reason several others have mentioned previously (NBC sealing while the M231 is installed) another reason the Army used the M231 instead of the M16 is the brass catcher and gas recovery hoses would not fit on a standard M16. The lack of a brass deflector and forward assist gave the receiver a flat surface to mount the hose and catcher assembly. To be honest, it didnt work perfectly, but it did help keep gases from building up in the back of our track.
Is that an 30-06 chauchat in the background?
Yes.
Is there enough history for a video on the chauchat conversions? I think you mentioned some that actually worked in the last chauchat video.
Ian bought one he plans on getting rebarreled with a correct chamber and doing videos.
sweet!
I just watched the chauchat video a few days ago and wondered about those. Very cool!
Am I the only one who got all excited for Ian when he saw the title, thinking it would be a left-ejecting M-16 variant?
You can make this left ejecting by not fully screwing it into the shooting port
yes
The navy lefty version?
Stag Arms makes left eject AR-15s
Mr9Guns *sigh*
Perfect for my front door during the quarantine! A must buy!
* * * * * 5/5 on all fronts!
"The bradley was designed to be a troop carrying vehicle"
I'm gonna stop you right there
Holy shit! I haven't seen one of those in 27 years. Back when I was an 11M Bradley gunner.
When your platoon runs a range and you have thousands of 5.56 left over that needs shot before you can head home. This becomes your best friend.
The whole development of the Bradley is hilarious in itself. Check out the movie 'The Pentagon Wars'
Fantastic movie. I keep a copy on my computer for occasional viewing.
To quote "The Untouchables", "We laugh because it's funny & we laugh because it's true."
Dammit, now I gotta go see that again. "With a 'B'?"
The movies is funny, but it's a comedy, not a documentary and should be treated as such.
It's full of misinformation and misinterpretation. It's on a level of "M4 Sherman was a piece of shit" and "M16 jammed ALL the time, unlike AK47".
"Sherman was a pos" :thinking:
The firing ports on the bradley came about because the Soviets had them on some of their APCs.
I'm thinking that the firing port weapon came about because of the desire to NBC seal the Bradley. There are no features on the M16 that would really let you do that, but a dedicated firing port weapon could have features like that threaded endcap built into it.
I believe these guns are still in inventory somewhere. I've heard rumors of Bradley crews using them as dismounts as makeshift SAW replacements to supplement the squad firepower.
Jeff Acheson Yes they do still have them some now have stocks and sights but I can’t imagine shouldering it
Devin Tariel id shoulder it just to make firing from the prone possible.
Cool last ditch weapon.
Put a buttstock on it for shouldering in emergency.
Put a 100 or 150 round giant magazine in it.
You now have indeed a fairly usable in case of emergency SAW.
phantom forces players punching air rn
4th ID had a couple still in Baghdad Iraq in 2008. They never left the arms that I'm aware of but still on the books. Unit did have Bradleys.
I nearly did a backflip my first time shooting that thing. My sgt told me and my driver to load only 10rds and we’re like wtf why when we had 30td mags. So we went to go test fire them at then same time and we both ended up pointing the gun at the sky after those 10 rounds. We looked at each other and said HOLY SHIT
the bradley is supposed to be nbc / radiation hardened. this requires a positive pressure seal on the fighting compartment. my guess would be that the "rifle" would screw into a mount with a heavy gasket or seal around the firing port. to allow firing, but keep pressure loss to a minimum.
This is one to be put on an FPS. Less accuracy aided by all bullets being tracers and ludicrous rate of fire would give a pretty unique gameplay
It does exist in two roblox shooter games at least
I seem to recall parts for these available in Shotgun News in the late 80's or early 90's.
Pretty neat, thanks for the video Ian.
when you put the no stock and M16 barrel attachments on the M4A1 in modern warfare.
I get so excited seeing a new upload from ian, keep up the great work
I GIVE MY LIFE.
NOT FOR HONOR,
BUT FOR YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!
(snake eater)
IN MY TIIIIIIIIIME,
THERE'LL BE NO ONE ELLLLLLLLLLLLLSE!
This gun is a inspiration for the Patriot, a very important weapon from the Metal Gear series. Those are the lyrics to Snake Eater, the theme song for Metal Gear Solid 3, which is where the Patriot appears.
the Patriot is a weird cut down xm177e1, I think, that is the iconic weapon of the Boss.
The Patriot from MGS3 is actually just a real gun, the Rocky Mountain Arms Patriot AR-15 variant.
www.imfdb.org/wiki/Rocky_Mountain_Arms_Patriot
www.imfdb.org/wiki/Metal_gear_solid_3#.22Patriot.22 'It is partially inspired by the real-life M231 Firing Port Weapon'
It's a chimera based on no real firearm. However, the Rocky Mountain Arms Patriot might be another one.
I was waiting for the metal gear refrence
The kinda gun that makes me appreciate the old flick called Pengon Wars, a dramatization of the development of the Bradley vehicle...
Pretty funny and well worth watching
“Today we have the modern chrome mouse” thank you UA-cam captions my brew went everywhere
Ian,
Sir,
Your are a fine example of a Scott Scientist.
Now , with you to hear,
I have three to like.
Excellent presentations.
A guy that could make the workings of a washing machine fascinating, has blessed us with useful and enlightining tours of what interest those like me very much.
Thank you,
Bj
Heres a challenge: Find and cover an M73 machine gun
I came here because I thought this gun was fictional and only in Phantom Forces.
used them when I was in the US army and was a mechanized infantryman..
@@soup31314 nice, how was the recoil because in the game, it is horrible.
@@SKT3716I would say the game got it right. 1200 rounds a minute was insane to try to control outside of the port.
I saw an M-3 with port firing threads at FT. Bragg, but I believe it was designed for use in WWII era vehicles. I wish I could remember more about it now.
I got to try one free handed about 14 years ago. Absolutely horrible trigger pull (felt like 20lbs LoL). Only thing worse was the gyrojet when you heard a click. Watched a grown man almost cry because of that...
The simplicity and effectiveness of open bolt guns never ceases to amaze me
Best setup for the m231
- global offensive scope
- muzzle booster
- wire stock
- skeleton grip
- m855 conv.
It has 0 recoil and 100000000000% accuracy!!
bro put the global offensive 10x even less recoil
Ok, thats good lol
Me and my boys who used the M231 with no attachment since the beta: *Jazz Music Stops*
best setup for the M231:
-carbine barrel (so the name changes to Patriot)
-M855 (so it actually looks like the Patriot)
infinity recoil instead of infinite ammo, but the 100 rounds guarantee that you'll hit someone at least enough times to kill them
I read somewhere that this was developed because it was found that the M-16 was too long and unwieldy inside the M2 troop compartment to be used from the firing ports.
so cool! i can imagine the noise!!!
"What is it going to be? Loyalty to your country, or loyalty to me?"
I’m currently a mech infantry soldier and even while deployed I’ve never seen a M231 on our Brads
well, it’s easily one of the most pointless and impractical weapons I’ve ever seen, maybe the military is starting to realize that
@@jasonarmstrong5750 it’s fucking awesome though, that rate of fire on a 5.56 is something i’d want to have if i was in any sort of cqc
@@floo1465 you could get better results with a Famas, it fires just as fast, is more compact and far more controllable
@@jasonarmstrong5750 isn’t this a little bit faster than a famas?
@@floo1465 only by about 50-100 rounds per minute. In my opinion a difference like that is negligible
Thanks for the video, Ian. Those are definitely some curious and interesting internals, but it still looks like it would be a pain in the ass for troops to use it. I could only imagine how much brass the vehicle would fill up with after having no choice but to use one of those.
Can you swap out the upper for a standard AR upper if you transfer over the BCG, or is the BCG proprietary to that type of upper?
The upper is internally the same as any other upper.
High rate of fire is for target exposure time, also they have a modified brass catcher with a gas ventilation hose that is attached to the inside of the vic, there is little to no ventilation inside the crew compartment. We had a few of them, but never used them. looked them over, then never saw them again. And yes they are still in issue.
This gun is extremely similliar with a patriot from metal gear solid 3 it just has a 30 round box stanag mag instead of 100 round kci drum mag and a long barrel.
I carried one of these in the turret of the Bradley in Iraq. Pretty handy little thing. You're not kidding about the rate of fire. The biggest problem was finding a mag that wasn't shit that could keep up.
Let's see a Colt 633 DOE, Ian. Please.
Carbine length rifles didnt come out for a while, dissipators had short barrels but rifle stocks. This thing looks significantly shorter and lighter than an M16.
Oh hey, it's that one gun from Metal Gear Solid 3.
You are thinking of the Rocky Mountain Arms Patriot pistol.
picturearchive.gunauction.com/6666100725/12986466/ARpistol%20002.jpg
Yeah, but does it hold infinite ammo because of the shape of the feed mechanism?
What a thrill....
Viper Dagger I stand corrected.
with darkness and silence through the night..
For the whole video I was thinking 'port gun? Is there a starbord gun, aft and stern?' then it kicked in, ohhhhh, PoRt guN for the portals.
Ah yes, I love using this on phantom forces on Roblox. Can’t fucking aim.
I only know about this gun from a game on Roblox, It's called Phantom forces. It's the 2nd most popular FPS on the platform and the M231 is one of the last assault rifles you can unlock. It has insane recoil and an insane fire rate. It basically goes straight up after you fire it for 2 seconds
This is the most tryhard weapon in Modern Warfare
Various previous comments have pointed out a few of the problems with Firing Ports on IFVs but they don't cover all of them. 1. Keeping the ports themselves clear and maintaining enough space to use and swing the weapon introduces lots of limitations on stowage, both inside and outside the vehicle, which limits the ability to carry stuff of more general use than equipment designed for a relatively rare situation. 2. Firing Ports produce weaknesses in the armour, quite apart from the NBC sealing issues others have mentioned. 3. Combining those two, keeping the ports clear places severe limits on Applique Armour. You will note that the UK IFV, Warrior, never featured FP in the design, despite howls from the Press and some elements of the services. There were, and are, good reasons for this - yes the 'close assault by Infantry' situation does happen but there are other countermeasures that can be adopted, like mutual support, that are no more imperfect than drilling holes of limited utility in your AFV.
I'am just here, because of Phantom Forces
When the firing pin goes forward it makes the best sound ever. 9:10
By far has to be the coolest M16 platform rifle. If the ATF didn't have their ban on production of open bolt semi auto firearms for sale I'd so buy my own. If I was in the military and I saw a wrecked Bradley on the battlefield I'd pick one of these up and make myself an improvised PDW. So damn awesome. I'd ditch my sidearm for one of these bad boys. like a mini A10. BRRAAAATTTT! *Edit Ik this is a full auto firearm, but I bet you someone could easily make this thing a semi auto open bolt gun with a little bit of tinkering. Putting it into production from there wouldn't be hard.
I've always wondered about this weapon, I always seen it in books as a kid.
Great video as always Ian thanks.
My guess would be that they wanted your own rifle to be as untouched as possible so that it's ready to go immediately after bailing out of the transport. So you're not bailing out with, say, a magazine of only 3 rounds remaining and may be overheating already.
I just left command of a Mechanized Infantry company. We never took them to the field with us, or used them for anything. The only time we shot then was on a range.
I agree that they are impractical for 99% of problems, but are incredibly fun to fire. The Army is also getting away from them entirely. All of the companies were turning theirs in to depot when I left.
Pov: You are looking for a phantom forces comment
omg phantom forces
With a fire rate like that I'd love to put a compensator, put a stock on it and mount a red dot with 100 round beta c mag and also a vertical foregrip
Roblox bad business and phantom forces anyone?
yes.
Am I the only one that noticed the sound for the first 2 seconds of the video came from the left (port side) speaker?
Impossible to control? I know a few Phantom Forces players willing to disagree.
Patrick Antolovich -- Only in Robloxia my friend. Lol
Patrick Antolovich that gun is really op when you put some troll attachment, if you know what I mean? Lel :V
Oh my goodness, other PF players do exist on this channel!
Samurai MC might be an odd generalization but I seem to find that the hardcore PF community are pretty pro 2A
Samurai MC it is especially helpful that Lito and Shay seem to do adequate research for the weapons implemented in game.