The Douglas F5D Skylancer; When Being Better Just Wasn’t Good Enough
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- Опубліковано 10 гру 2024
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The Skyray was such a pretty aircraft. It just looked "right" - like the Skyhawk did later on.
Couldn’t have said it better one of my fav 1950s jets for sure.
Used to see these fly overhead when I was kid. Always thought they looked amazing.
But at least they named an ice lolly after it :)
Ed Heinemann knew his business.
I was getting 'Hawker Hunter with a delta wing' vibes from it.
Neil Armstrong was once asked which was his favorite aircraft to fly. He quickly said that it was the Douglas F5D Skylancer. Pretty good recommendation from the First Man On The Moon. RIP Neil.
7:41 Rear right. I think third left _may_ be Deke Slayton.
F5D and F11F-1F are big "missing opportunities" in my own opinion.
An entire generation of previous good planes was plagued by the chimera of the J40...
There was also the small matter of the F11F shooting itself down with its own cannon rounds, that hindered further development. Poor reputations do that.
And by Lockheed bribery. The F11F-1F was demonstrably *far* superior to the F-104, and a J79 powered F5D probably would've been as well.
And by Lockheed bribery. The F11F-1F was demonstrably *far* superior to the F-104, and a J79 powered F5D probably would've been as well.
@RedXlV true. As an Italian, thinking what a wonderful experience we were so close to enjoy if Italian AMI were buying the F11F-1F instead of the 104 freaks me out...
@@Zodd83Same goes for me as a German....hmm imagine the F11F-1F making a good showing.....and then the Luftwaffe with the Tomcat.
A Luftwaffenkater would've been so great.
As would've been an Italian Tomcat ruling the Adriatic.
I'm a retired aviation writer and historian. The 1950s have always fascinated me because it was a time of seemingly limitless possibilities in high performance flight. In the US we had all these companies designing and building amazing aircraft. Those companies have now been reduced to two. I see no good coming out of that state of affairs.
Yes, Boeing and Lockheed’s virtual monopoly on commercial and military aircraft in the US is not good for the country and it’s not even optimal for them. I’d say there’s a glimmer of hope as some new companies are finally gaining real traction in the Pentagon’s procurement ecosystem for the first time in decades.
I'll add here too as someone who knows a decent bit about the program for a new fighter at the time. The requirements changed at least a couple of times. Originally, they were looking at adopting essentially the Hawker Sea Hawk, but were forced to change the requirements to a supersonic fleet interceptor. The requirement was also changed from day fighter to all-weather fighter, which the F-8 was capable of. This is actually why the F5D's competition, the F-8A/B/C was armed with 32 2.75" Mk. 4 Mod. 0 "Mighty Mouse" FFAR. It's a bit of a rollercoaster ride learning the history of the program as a whole
Interesting article. My father worked for Westinghouse solving the problems of the day, most significantly finding the best ways to work with titanium in jet engines. When Westinghouse bailed out of the defense business, he quickly ended up at GE and went on to specialized in re-entry systems and guidance systems. One of those projects was Voyager.
Having 2 Skylancers still around out of 5 built is a great Survive to Build ratio! 😊
What killed almost all other naval aircraft, was the McDonnell F4H and the Vought F8U.
I visited Armstrong's F5D just a few weeks ago. I didn't realize it was there until I pulled up - I was delighted!
The fact that Douglas already had several other Navy contracts might explain why they didn't try to develop it for sale abroad. At the time it was developed there where many countries both in Europe and South America that were shopping for planes just like the Skylancer.
Also remember that it's main overseas competitors would have been the French Dassault Mystere, Etendard IV and early Mirage IIIs; and the MiG-17 & MiG-19.
The F4D Skyray has always been one of my favorite jet aircraft. I really wish the F5D had a chance to prove itself. 😮
Yes I agree that the mission was changed from day fighter to all-weather fleet defence. This resulting the Navy's selection of the F-8 over the F5D Skylancer. But their was another BIG REASON for that selection. On carrier decks Douglas had a big share of the pie. With the A-1, A-3,A-4 , and the F4D it was doing well. Hard to beat Ed Hienemen's great designs. Chance-Vought with their failed F7U needed some business. F-8 was faster but I feel the F5D would've worked out better. At least it could fire its 4×20mm cannon while pulling G.
Thanks Ed.
You've done it yet again, Ed.
I knew nothing of this aircraft.
Thank you.
☮
Great looking plane. I knew about the Skyray, but not the Skylancer. Great episode. Concise, informative, and interesting. Well done.
I mistakenly thought the Thumb nail meant this was a video about the Skyray.
I need to read the title as well as look at the pictures. LOL
The fact that the title starts off with The Douglas got me, along with the thumb nail didn't help.
I live in New York and a few years ago, the Intrepid sea-air-space museum added a Skyray to their collection after transporting it from another museum in New England
Thank you for the video. I have seen the F5D at the Armstrong Air & Space Museum, but did not really get its significance until I watched this. And it is interesting that the plaque in front of it claims it is the only one left in existence (unless it has been updated since I was last there).
Ed Nash for US aviation procurement tsar! Never mind his “odd” accent. I love how short the service life of so many aircraft were during the 50s - early 70s.
Demon, Skyray, Tiger all gone before Vietnam
And how extremely long they are generally these days. The F-15, the C-130, and of course, the B-52. I imagine that the B-52Z will finally be retired just before the sun turns into a red giant.
@@patricknorton5788 By the time the B-52 retires, the last pilots to have flown them will be the age of the first pilot’s great grand children and even possibly their great great children. Simply amazing. And the F-15 in EX guise is still good enough to dominate a war.
@@patricknorton5788Naw, once they hit ‘Z’, they’ll start over with double letters (B-52AA, B-52AB, etc.) 😂
😂🤣😂🤣@@patricknorton5788
Great video, Ed...👍
Ed Heineman couldn't win them all. The Skyhawk was his best work.
If I remember correctly, at least one Skyray did end up with a J79 shoveled in but no significant performance information has been published/found concerning that modification. I believe that particular airframe spent it's entire life at Edwards as it was used for testing before somebody came up with the idea of installing a J79. Only major issue was modifying the interface between the engine and airflow duct thingy. Supposedly it flew very well. I'll have to locate & dust off my copy of "Killer Ray's". If I find it I'll post the Tail #. There are pictures too. Talk about a "What If". 😁
Actually? GE used it as a testbed for the dry Civil version that eventually went into the Convair 880. The Ginter book on the Skylancer says that the proposed F5D-2 would have had the J79; I would love to see a comparison between that and the F11F-2 Supee Tiger.
Ed's presentation and narration are amongst the most sympathetic around in the field of aviation videos.
1min ago! Great video, i agree these development aircraft are just as important to the aviation landscape as the ones that made it into production.
simple pleasures.
Good looking bird, the Skylancer!
The Backup of a Backup would have been the perfect plane for the reserve of the reserve of the rear guard😂
Someone should do a video on the J40. I know it was bad, but I don't know why!
Awesome video. What a cool looking plane
Interesting -- and as regard financing it is interesting to know how much it means when the Navy orders an experimental aircraft developed.
Thanks Ed Nash.....
Old F-4 pilot Shoe🇺🇸
I love these jets of the 50s and early 60s. They look fast even when stationary.
Excellent as always. Thanks for this fascinating video.
I have seen one of the NASA Skylancer, outside the Armstrong Air and Space Museum in Wapakoneta Oh, a truly striking and beautiful aircraft.
A rare bird from one of my favorite era’s of American Naval Jet Aviation. Between the Skyray, Skylancer, Super Tiger, the Crusaders and more just a real interesting time to read about.
Outstanding, many thanks!
Nice looking plane. Cheers Ed.🦘
Another fine aircraft video from Ed Nash! BTW, Ed, in the NACA group photo, the lady in the far right of the front row is my great aunt, Roxanna Yancy. She was a degreed mathmatician and the head "computer" of NACA in those days. She worked on many projects, including the X-15 program, where she shared credit on the NACA/NASA published research papers. Any chance you could share the source of that particular photo? I'd like to add it to my files on Aunt Roxie.
pls do the skyray soon. i love that plane
That whole mess with the Westinghouse turbine should get its entire dedicated video.
One jet turbine killing SEVERAL potentially powerful fighters, is that some kind of record?
Yes, faulty engines have killed planes before, famously several during WWII, but the Westinghouse was the first jet engine to do that.
Fascinating installment! The Crusader was a tough nut to crack. I will be in Oregon soon and am past due for a visit to Evergreen, and will be looking for the Skylancer. It is located in McMinnville (pronounced "Mc-Min-ville"), which is near to, but not too close, to Portland, where I will be. As a former Oregonian, may I offer the local pronunciation of Oregon? It is pronounced "O-re-gun".
Read a very good book 40+ years ago about the desert there.
Another great video.
The idea that the F5D was scrapped by the Navy because Douglas had too much of its business has merit. I was working for a simulator company in the late 1970s. We were bidding on an Army tactical command and control simulator. We were initially denied because the company had so much Navy and Air Force business. We were able to overcome this only because it was an Army program, and we didn't have much business with that branch. That took a lot of lobbying to achieve.
I wonder how it compared to the Crusader around the boat.
"too much of the pie"....Aaaaaaand look where we are now (eye roll)
Kind of looks like a F-102 and an A-4 had a baby.
Using Westinghouse jet engines set USN aviation back considerably and killed a lot of pilots. Was it US hubris that prevented it from using the RR engines?
Douglas made 3 of my favourite aircraft
Spad
Scooter
And Whale
Heinemann was almost as influential as Johnson.
Without the scandal and luggage of F104.
Westinghouse should have really stuck to toasters and TVs.
They can build good nuclear reactors, but the engines were junk!
Pointless trivia: They can build good reactors because they bought Stone&Webster and their expertise.
J40 & J46 baby!
At 9:20 A very interesting top down photo!
Many of the strings are at 90 deg.?
Has Ed done the Huey
I've spent the last few years reading every Vietnam memoir on Amazon
I should have said I've laid there on my back while Alexia read them to me lol
The Huey, no. But type ach-47 or bell 207 into the youtube search and you should get something thatll interest you 😉
Ngl I would like to see this plane in War Thunder. It's such an aesthetically pleasing plane too. Although it probably wouldn't be that useful in the game it would be a nice show piece.
I've seen the F5D at the Armstrong museum. :)
If Evergreen has one I don't think it's on display. At least I don't remember it when visiting last year.
Douglas: We've got this great new jet. The Skylancer.
US Navy: Nice. Just put it at the end of that line of other great new jets, will you.
Talk about right aircraft wrong time.
The US Navy at the time had the excellent F8 Crusader on the brink of service entry and could simply have built more of them rather than waste time and money on procuring Cutlasses and Demons, as well as heavily reworking the Tiger and Skyray into more effective aircraft, therefore I can’t agree with a lot of the would’ve/should’ve speculating over the damage the J40 engine programme did in the grand scheme of things…
Anyone else look at the skyray and see the start of the Skyhawk?
Yeah just put a conventional horizontal stabilizer on it
Their test programmes and service entry were almost concurrent (just a few months apart) , so it’d be hard to say the Skyray “led” to the Skyhawk
You said “ Westinghouse.” 😏
I mean I suppose from a logistical and financial point of view it is quite logical for Douglas to stop development of the F-5 sky Lancer then again if I didn't have so much on their plate and as you said they did have too much of the pie I reckon if given a good engine and a lot of Firepower it would have made an excellent Interceptor..
But the Skylancer did have a good, in fact a great, engine in the J57. The GE J79 which followed a little later was notably lighter but didn’t produce more thrust, so I’m not sure where the big performance leap (from Mach 1.4 to Mach 2) that Ed mentions was expected to come from? Only the P&W J75 or RR Olympus (J67) engines could’ve enabled such a big gain, but they were much larger again and would’ve required yet another substantial fuselage redesign.
Mid-production J57s from the late ‘50’s produced 16,900 lbs, as did the early J79s from the same period. Late production versions of each by the mid 60’s were putting out 17,900lbs.
The restricted view from the semi closed cockpit looks very limited compared even tp more all round top cockpits seen in many late world war 2 aircraft.
Wapakoneta , Ohio, right next to I-75 and an exit with a McDonalds, Waffle House, and a Walmart.
LOL people shout at e for saying "aluminium", I wasn't going to touch Wapakoneta 😁
Good directions.
Canada had a carrier at the time, I bet this plane would have been a good fit for the carrier
the picture at 7:45 shows a surprisingly high number of women, if this is a staff photo.
thoughts ?
In the Navy, yes you can sail the Seven Seas...(Village People)
This video could have been titled "The American Draken".
The baby of an A-4 Skyhawk and F-102 Delta Dagger.
I'm obviously kidding. before I get all the comments.
Bet they had a lot of tail strikes...
It’s odd that there are two F-4s.
Armstrong is a good Scottish name. M
Diet Delta Phantom.
Kinda of looks like a A-4.
:)
this was really a fantastic design. The USN just didn't have the patience to wait and rushed the F4D into production. In today's mentality the F4D would had been what were later the YF-16, YF-22 , YF-35....while the F5D would had been the production aircraft. It's like USAF would reject the F-106A, put in production the XF-104 and YF-105A and reject the F-104A and F-105B respectively
"Reject the F-106A"? The Six had a good long career in the USAF, some 29 years. I was an avionics tech on the F-106A/B. Pilots loved it. It was a superb interceptor.
@@lancerevell5979 I was trying to say that rejecting the F5D was as foolish as if USAF would had rejected the F-106.
The Crusader is so ugly. I could not appreciate it when I was a kid.
Crusader is beautiful. So is the Corsair II.
F4D and F5D both look like a fighter drawn by a 6-year-old, in a cute kind of way