Ahriman's lesser offences are 89% overdue books return fines, 9% local council planning permission violations (mostly for non Euclidean geometric architecture meaning that proper access to the property wasn't possible and that the sightlines for neighbours were obscured depending on the mood of the observer at the time) and 3% not cleaning up after his dog after it defecated on the pavement.
@@nerag7459 suprisingly he does clean up after the disc, he’s militaristic about it. But his Yorkshire Terrier “Pinkie”, no matter how many signs they put up in the neighbourhood still does it’s business freely and he won’t pick it up. Residents have commented that the dog mess does look a bit… dry and slightly dusty.
I really hope the eventual Emperors Children release will bring back Doomrider. A modern sculpt could look so badass that even the people who hate when 40k gets silly wont notice just *how* silly doomrider really is.
Unfortunately he is currently dead-ish in the lore. Korsarro Khan took his head and I believe it's his head being carried by the model. The head is still alive though.
@@TheDirtysouthfanThough, doomrider is a daemon prince, so I don't think it would be much of a stretch for him to just come back. Hell, they could go even more fun with it and give him a flaming skull for a new head if they wanted to be extra weird with it
@@TheDirtysouthfanthey should do a headless motorcycle rider, then. Give him a ghostly flame head and say his body is looking for him. Now 40k gets both a headless horseman AND doomrider, in a single package!
I've found the complete ritual right here: The sirens are screaming and the fires are howling Way down in the valley tonight There's a man in the shadows with a gun in his eye And a blade shining oh so bright There's evil in the air and there's thunder in sky And a killer's on the bloodshot streets Oh, and down in the tunnel where the deadly are rising Oh, I swear I saw a young boy down in the gutter He was starting to foam in the heat
@@forthrightgambitia1032 yeah. Necron book was a good 'un. I think I prefer them as the unknowable cosmic horror than their current iteration, but do understand that that niche is already filled by the 'nids (who do it better tbh). 3rd ed was fucking great. GW as a whole was during that period. 6th edition fantasy, Epic Armageddon, Warmaster, Gorkamorka, BFG, Mordheim, Inquisitor...what a fucking TIME.
The interesting this about this quote is that it seems to be the mirror of this Imperium quote from 1998's _Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness_ , attributed to the First Book of Indoctrinations: "The weak will always be led by the strong. Where the strong see purpose and act, the weak follow; where the strong cry out against fate, the weak bow their heads and succumb. There are many who are weak; and many are their temptations. Despise the weak for they shall flock to the call of the Daemon and the Renegade. Pity them not and scorn their cries of innocence - it is better that one hundred innocently fall before the wrath of the Emperor than one kneels before the Daemon." I like the irony of it, in that the Imperium quote and the Chaos quote, while providing different rationalisations, both come to the same idea. Really shows that there are no good guys in 40k.
Note how the Chaos quote refers to pure might makes right, so to the Nazi ideology of social Darwinism, the Imperial quote refers to strength of will/faith. Chaos wants to turn the world into a nightmarish place where competition for survival and power reaches it's most vilest forms while the Imperium is trying to preserve the structure that prevents it. It's clearly seen in the contrast between "cry out against fate" vs. "make their own fate". In the Imperial version you don't need to actually be strong enough to defeat Chaos Space Marines and similar, you merely need to be opposed to them. This includes getting martyred.
"Their arrogance is matched only by their firepower." Oh, I remember my 3rd edition Eldar codex. That art got me into Eldar back then, as a little baby teenager.
Both lost legions were originally supposed to be around during the Heresy. That's the reason old books say 'almost half' of the legions rebelled during the Heresy, whereas newer books say 'a full half'. Notice that in background material released before the Horus Heresy novel trilogy, legion listings marked II and XI as 'all records expunged after the Horus Heresy'. Heresy was supposed to be this mythical prehistory that's never expanded upon so it was a safe spot to put the lost legions debacle and keep them mysterious. But when they did start expanding upon it and releasing the books, they had to soft retcon the lost legions to be lost even further back, to avoid having to explain them, and creating an awkward situation where it kinda necessitates ANOTHER and completely separate super-betrayal event EVEN FURTHER back in the past, that's somehow EVEN WORSE than the Horus Heresy since the Heresy didn't result in such stringent record burying and mind wiping.
Not really though. The lost Primarchs could have beem erased because their betrayal was not so massive and its impact not so lasting as the Heresy. I mean, even if they could erase all the records of it (which, without the Emperor and Malcador might have been impossible) but doing so would be a very stupid idea given that the traitors in good part were still very much alive.
The original 1989 Space Marine rulebook stated that 3 chapters (it predated the common terminology of calling the first founding legions rather than chapters) were wiped out at the Drop Site Massacre and purged from Imperial records, it's the earliest example I know of of something that could have evolved into the two lost legions of today. The same rulebook identified 17 of the 18 first founding chapters/legions we know today as having fought in the Heresy (the Raven Guard are not mentioned), which seems to match up with the 3 chapters lost at the drop site massacre not having fought in the rest of the Heresy - i.e. at this point neither the Salamanders nor the Iron Hands were amongst those destroyed chapters.
Yeah, the impression I get is that the Imperium was able to eradicate 2nd and 11th and successfully condemn them to damnatio memoriae because they both "rebelled" individually - they could just sic Space Wolves on them, absorb any holdovers into Ultramarines, organize a records purge and some mindwipings, and call it a day. During Heresy we saw multiple Legions betray the Imperium at once, Chaos got involved and disrupted both the information flow and space transit, and in the aftermath of the conflict Malcador was dead-dead, Emperor was effectively dead, survivors on both sides were scattered, and any attempt the Imperium has made to erase or seal away the records about Traitor Legions were nullified by their re-emergence about 1000 years after the Heresy anyway.
it could also be interpreted as the massive propaganda/info control the Imperium had during these years several times throughout the book series we saw how they were able to completely wipe the record on things, from civilizations, full species (like the Rangdan) and such furthermore the Imperium created this mentality of both Primarch and Legion infallibility, this the idea Primarchs had fights was sidestepped with honor duels and two full legions could be erased with relative impunity, I mean they erased 20 thunder warrior legions before, they did it again
I remember bringing this codex into my local GW store to prove to the store owner Chaos could take Cypher in their army because no one believed me. Great memories =D
Yeah, I really miss when 40k was a creative game where you were encouraged to make something unique. HH still has a bunch of wargear customabillity, but they lack the fun madness of early to middle 40k editions
I don't really like the HH novels that much (I'd prefer that era to be a big mythical mystery, personally) but one thing I appreciate is the elaboration that what made a lot of marines turn traitor was this idea of an Astartes warrior-caste superiority. I can appreciate that philosophy, in the abstract. They wanted the Imperium to be their feudal realm, where the Astartes made up a kind of aristocratic nobility above the baseline humans. It's as good a villain motivation as anything. Also, I like the "smoothness" of the marine on the cover. It implies that his head is almost always inside the controlled environment of the helmet, growing pallid and parchment-like. Neat.
@@justwannabehappy6735 I thought I was the only one! I hated how the real life authors seemed to have eaten up in universe Imperial Propaganda. If the Emperor actually is as powerful as his followers believe, possibly moreso, then the setting is less interesting. The Emperor is turned into a Batman-like caricature. He knows everything, he's planned everything in advance and he's super powerful. Even in 40k they started doing this. It used to be a fun mystery of the lore over whether the Emperor was alive or not, and it seemed like it's possible if not likely that he was in fact dead. Now they basically confirmed he's not only alive, but he's talking with the Custodes and Gulliman, and he's able to project himself across the universe. Gulliman remarks he's even more powerful than ever. I also greatly dislike the almost petty reasons the Legions turn traitor. The Iron Warriors betray the Emperor because they felt disrespected and didn't get enough credit? The World Eaters because their Primarch didn't get to die fighting? The only one which seemed justified was Lorgar and the Word Bearers, but in a universe with pretty serious politics these guys just seem to be motivated by petty feuds. In the end I don't blame them, because this is what the 40k fanbase seems to want and the books get eaten up, but I just wish it still had the mysterious 1984 feel back in the 3rd-4th where things were purposefully vague or hidden.
The Chaos player in my club did up a CSM army for this codex with all the spikes filed off and replaced by trimmed needles splattered with red paint. These were regularly sharpened and re-splattered. I'm pretty sure he didn't want anyone else touching his kit. I'd really like to see you cover the 2nd ed Chaos book, as it's the one 2nd ed codex I never got a chance to look at.
It was a time of "fun over functionality" mindset at GW. Wish they would bring back some of that zaniness back to 40k now with their current ( and exceptional) rules writers.
@@Yurt_enthusiast7 Absolutely!!! Every game was fun above all else back then and every army felt very unique 😊 Even if you got your butt handed to you, there were usually a bunch of funny or memorable moments 😊 Nowadays, the game just feels very bland and boring (I.e. you play all shooting armies the same way and you always just take the best units rather than the coolest ones) 🥱
It seems there's some lore floating around about Doomrider being decapitated and his still-living head taken as a trophy by the White Scars - but I have it on good authority that he escaped by chewing one of his teeth into the shape of a D6 and spitting it out to roll a 1 and vanishing.
I really would love to see a Part 2 of this that goes into the Second 3rd Edition Chaos Codex as that Codex was so good, it made all other armies look bad, The only way i can describe the Second Third edition codex was that they took the Herohammer aspect of 2nd edition and brought it to third edition warhammer 40k, it was insane how customizable a chaos lord , Daemon prince, retinue or the chosen were, The Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children were very, very strong, the other Legions were not far behind in power level. You could literally have a massive army of firepower and a Daemon prince or chaos lord that could kill even Hive Tyrants in close combat,(after your army with four heavy support shot wiped out more your enemies army in the first two turns) If you played Iron Warriors you could do this. If you played Emperor's Children your opponents (who were often space marines) would get -1 intiative due to the mark of Slannesh. Leading to dominance in close combat. It was a great codex and felt a lot like the Second edition codex:Chaos, I only wish all the other 40k armies had gotten a codex like the Second 3rd edition Chaos codex so it would have been on a more even playing field, instead in the next codex chaos(4th edition) got nerfed into oblivion.
You two are looking much happier now, I am glad to see it. Love the video, always loved that chaos codex but the one after is the golden age of.... chaos
My best ever "that guy" story involves having to go into the shop, buy a metal blister of Squig Herders, and provide my opponent with a squig because otherwise he refused to accept that this was the fate of Kaldor Draigo.
Axe of Khorne with a bit of luck was amazing against power armor elite units like the Blood Angels' Honor Guard and Death Company. A peculiar unit was the Veterans. While the loyalists had scouts (the novices) with infiltration rules, CSMs had veterans. They had 2 heavy or 2 specials per units, which was compensated by the Havocs being able to deploy only 3 heavy weapon marines instead of 4. These little things, alongside with Bikes being the assault squads alongside Berzerkers, made each faction familiar but different with no need for a whole tome of rules. They HAD a different gameplay.
I still have my Doom Rider. I only got to use him once! I'm currently in the process of repainting him, but he's backlogged thanks to me _also_ renovating my old Chaos Space Marines. I'm feeling oddly nostalgic now. Also, the old Chaos Dreadnought hits so hard. Helbrutes and the current Dreadnoughts just don't have that silhouette, you know?
Oh, great, now I've got the theme music to the short-lived 1999 Hanna-Barbera cartoon series, "Dooomrider!!!" stuck in my head. "Doomrider!!! [power cord] Rider of Doom!!!"
5:13 I just want to take a moment to point out that I notice tiny little sounds like that, and I _dearly_ appreciate them. Every little audio cue that's timed to match up with what's going on satisfies me to no end, especially when it sounds like it's from a Mario game.
_"I think this line means they fell to Chaos mostly via the medium of 'edging'..."_ x3 This is why I love this channel. But hey, that's how you know it's really started! You listen to a few rock n' roll cassette tapes, get peer pressured into smoking, drink too many energy drinks, and before you know it the Four Aspects have brought your wayward soul into their clutches. Which given what life in the Imperium is like for the average person, doesn't seem _so_ bad.
3:00 Maybe it is accurate? The traitors first had to cull their own ranks before backstabbing the other legions. There were still traitor-legion marines who sided with the Emperor as well as loyal-legion marines who sided with Horus. Numberswise, the loyalists had more. Hence why Horus had to put the Ultramarines out of reach for example.
One of the first GW books I had! Another retcon intepretation of the 'almost half of the legions turned' fluff could be that not *all* the marines of the Traitor Legions turned. At this point the fluff hadn't really talked about this except some vague references about Isstvan III but a few years later the Index Astartes started talking about Garro etc. And Eventually the Horus Heresy series mentioned bands of thrown off Space Marines who didn't turn with their legion. Cultists got a Codex Approved entry pretty soon after this from what I remember to appease those who had the old models from what I am guessing was Rogue Trader.
16:43 - 3.5 CSM codex was one of Gee Dubs richest in options and most internaly ( externaly...is a diffrent matter ) well balanced books. It was also bullshit overpowered. Like holy Emperor, with some modernising adjustments this book would be in top tier even today.
I haven't played Warhammer in 22 years and this was the only book I ever owned. After watching this I'm compelled to dig it out along with my half assembled Khârn model and pick up where I left off.
I remember this codex well. I started playing in my twenties with the 3rd edition Space Marines codex, and few of my friends were using Chaos Marines. I didn't know all the subtleties of the lore at the time, so i jut loved the fact that they were the evil and twisted version of the imperial marines. Also remember that lots of my friends complained how you could not give a 4+ invulnerable save to your characters. There was no "chaos Iron Halo", meaning the most common causes of death ot their HQ was "power fist in the face" 😂
Saving for later tonight, but had to comment. This was my first Chaos codex, way back when and I was doing Iron Warriors. That art is so good, so nostalgic already.
My favourite chaos legion is the hacks. The much maligned, often forgotten, recently made up warband devoted to Kackle the demiurge of comedy. Running hither and yon over the chaos wastelands, their rubber chickens and tired jokes about what one cannot say anymore psychically damaging all who hear them.
The codex I've used the most. I've had all the weird stuff that can happen in it. Greater daemons possessing lords who cost more points than than they do. A khorne berserker champion scoring 13 hits with an axe of khorne. Possessed gettin power weapons and a 3+ invulnerable save with +1A. Good times. Bikes were rubbish back then and raptors again over pointed but otherwise great army. Chaos cultists were added in a WD article. I left school around the time the 3.5 codex came out so didn't get to play much after that due to work. So the 3 years this was out was really my 40k prime.
Chaos was my first codex. The artwork of the Obliterators in their unit entry margin sold me on the game. I was forever upset I never got a power armored Iron Warrior with a Demolisher Cannon in his chest.
Great books and a fun video again,still got my plastic chaos marines in my black legion army and about another 12 somewhere undercoated ready to finish.
Great video. I was playing 4th edition for the last two years and fought the World Eaters using 3.5 book. It was no good that I am planning to build a chaos army for my own
This was my first codex ❤ There's certainly some nostalgia here, but fluff/atmosphere wise it's still my favourite (2nd ed would probably get the first place but alas I started in 3rd ed). There was much more room for exploration, a less "serious" and fixed background - yes HH some novels are fun but I preferred the chance to have some bits here and feel free to explore from that. My legion of choice was Night Lords, purely based on colour scheme since there was little info on them, and they still are my 40k army. I also built a berzerkers army which was my main thing until 3.5, when NL took definitley over. In 3.0 we usually played 2 vs 1 games of Berzerkers and Emperor Children allied against the Eldar. We usually got erased until chaos cultists appeared in some White Dwarf and we finally stood a chance using them as decoys. It was SUPER fun back then. 3.5 chaos marines codex was better, stronger, more complex and whatever but the pure fun of 3.0 with some chapter approved tweaks is where my best 40k days lie
Love this codex/era of 40k and I have a huge soft spot for the 2nd edition Chaos models. The demons from this era are still some of my favourite GW models.
"Ask us about any of our armies in 10th Edition [regarding how GW always removes fun themed lists each edition]" Okay! Consider this an open invitation to respond to this comment and just go off on your grievances.
Until they get back to you with their grievances, I'll note that 3rd edition had three Ork lists (Orks, Speed Freeks in Codex: Armageddon, and Ferals from Chapter Approved). Now we have one, and a bunch of the units last having rules in those books haven't reappeared.
I think for 10th they mean that a lot of SM models no longer have rules in the codex. AFAIK other factions didn't really lose any units in the transition, and SM lost a ton, from Land Speeders to Assault Marines.
Oh my God(s), this was my first codex ever, and my first army ever, with a composition dictated by what models were available and cheap, with crappy conversions, and a shitty very black paint job, because hey, bad guys I guess. I have waited so long for you to review this! Thank you!
It’s pretty interesting to see that at this point thousand sons seem to be pretty much formed as what we know them as now, barring their use of inferno-bolters and a lack of psychic rules
I still have fondness for this Codex, cus even though I had the 2nd Ed Chaos Marine book and love it, I got it right at the tail end between 2nd finishing and 3rd starting. So this was the first book I got to use on the tabletop, berzerker spam galore. It was glorious!
OK, I remember that there was a quote where a well educated imperial citizen was under the impression that Lorgar was loyalist. This belief may be widespread, given the Primark’s importance in the creation of the Imperial Cult. That could explain why a source would not realize that the split of traitor and loyalist legions was 9 to 9.
I know it's been a while since this video came out so it's likely no one will see this, and someone may have already said this that I didn't see, but the line that "almost half" of the legions fell to Chaos and the fact that the Word Bearers are mysteriously absent from the breakdown of the traitor legions may actually be outright intentional. This is because the Ecclesiarchy's basically bible, the Lectitio Divinitatus, was written by Lorgar, Primarch of the Word Bearers, and thus their existence, or at least their treachery, is generally kept out of Imperial records on purpose by those who know of it.
I love these retrospectives. I was not playing or collecting 40K at the time, but the variety of fluff options must have been exciting for Chaos players. I have an unpainted SM bike, just the thing for a DOOMRIDER mount. I can hear the capital letters in the name :)
New to the channel love the video!! Looking forward to checking out the other ones in the series. 3rd edition is when I got into 40k and fell off in 5th but got back at the end 8th so it's fun reminiscing on the old codexs and models!
Love these older looks at 40k. The last I played was 3rd edition. Mainly eldar, marines and started a small chaos army. Gone back to being interested in the lore and stories for about a year now and have been tempted to collect again. It's just moved so much since I was a kid I find it overwhelming. Plus I wanna play a new faction but don't like the aesthetics of any others lol, although the sisters are becoming quite appealing if not expensive... Is great to reminisce about the good ol' days though.
Waited for this to be on yt to watch, hope the ad revenue helps ^^ definitely worth the wait. Also loving the nails, I'm sure DOOMRIDEEEEER also approves.
Just a note: If I remember the 3rd ed rules correctly, a wounds allocated in Close Combat could not be beyond 2" of the model that caused it, so the "in theory the single lord rolling 6's consecutively wiping out an entire squad of gaunts" is even less likely. Still fun thought experiment though.
Hated 3rd edition when it came out as the points had been halved, but by the gods it was the quickest and simplest edition of 40k ever and I've grown to love it
Ahriman's lesser offences are 89% overdue books return fines, 9% local council planning permission violations (mostly for non Euclidean geometric architecture meaning that proper access to the property wasn't possible and that the sightlines for neighbours were obscured depending on the mood of the observer at the time) and 3% not cleaning up after his dog after it defecated on the pavement.
3% not cleaning up after his disc, not his dog.
@@nerag7459 suprisingly he does clean up after the disc, he’s militaristic about it. But his Yorkshire Terrier “Pinkie”, no matter how many signs they put up in the neighbourhood still does it’s business freely and he won’t pick it up.
Residents have commented that the dog mess does look a bit… dry and slightly dusty.
@@GeorgeTGF You can't raise discs and dogs together. Well ok you can but not for very long.
His dog is also a hound of Tindalos.
@@nerag7459 i agree, discs are a natural prey for Yorkshire Terriers.
I really hope the eventual Emperors Children release will bring back Doomrider. A modern sculpt could look so badass that even the people who hate when 40k gets silly wont notice just *how* silly doomrider really is.
Unfortunately he is currently dead-ish in the lore. Korsarro Khan took his head and I believe it's his head being carried by the model. The head is still alive though.
@@TheDirtysouthfanif that is doomrider, he must have gotten seriously demoted. Whats just a guy. Doomrider looks completely different
@@TheDirtysouthfanThough, doomrider is a daemon prince, so I don't think it would be much of a stretch for him to just come back. Hell, they could go even more fun with it and give him a flaming skull for a new head if they wanted to be extra weird with it
@@TheDirtysouthfanthey should do a headless motorcycle rider, then. Give him a ghostly flame head and say his body is looking for him. Now 40k gets both a headless horseman AND doomrider, in a single package!
I can't be dissuaded that the ritual to summon Doomrider is "Here he comes, here comes Doomrider. He's a daemon on wheels."
I've found the complete ritual right here:
The sirens are screaming and the fires are howling
Way down in the valley tonight
There's a man in the shadows with a gun in his eye
And a blade shining oh so bright
There's evil in the air and there's thunder in sky
And a killer's on the bloodshot streets
Oh, and down in the tunnel where the deadly are rising
Oh, I swear I saw a young boy down in the gutter
He was starting to foam in the heat
Underrated comment - Have an upvote Racer X
RIP Wayne England - always loved that cover. Though the 3.5 book was the better book and, in fact, the best book Chaos Marines have ever had.
And it was a toss up between this and Necrons 3rd edition for the best 3rd edition book.
@@forthrightgambitia1032 yeah. Necron book was a good 'un. I think I prefer them as the unknowable cosmic horror than their current iteration, but do understand that that niche is already filled by the 'nids (who do it better tbh).
3rd ed was fucking great. GW as a whole was during that period. 6th edition fantasy, Epic Armageddon, Warmaster, Gorkamorka, BFG, Mordheim, Inquisitor...what a fucking TIME.
That book hit so hard that Chaos Marines are still nurfed twenty odd years later.
I hated the 3,5 codex so much, it was leagues better than the marine codex. It felt so unfair that they were so much better at literally everything.
@@joostcbruikman933 I mean, they do have more experience 🤷♂️
The interesting this about this quote is that it seems to be the mirror of this Imperium quote from 1998's _Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness_ , attributed to the First Book of Indoctrinations:
"The weak will always be led by the strong. Where the strong see purpose and act, the weak follow; where the strong cry out against fate, the weak bow their heads and succumb. There are many who are weak; and many are their temptations. Despise the weak for they shall flock to the call of the Daemon and the Renegade. Pity them not and scorn their cries of innocence - it is better that one hundred innocently fall before the wrath of the Emperor than one kneels before the Daemon."
I like the irony of it, in that the Imperium quote and the Chaos quote, while providing different rationalisations, both come to the same idea. Really shows that there are no good guys in 40k.
Ah nice, I didn't catch that.
Now I'm really kicking myself for cutting an observation about how the quote mirrors the imperium's ethos hah
Note how the Chaos quote refers to pure might makes right, so to the Nazi ideology of social Darwinism, the Imperial quote refers to strength of will/faith. Chaos wants to turn the world into a nightmarish place where competition for survival and power reaches it's most vilest forms while the Imperium is trying to preserve the structure that prevents it.
It's clearly seen in the contrast between "cry out against fate" vs. "make their own fate". In the Imperial version you don't need to actually be strong enough to defeat Chaos Space Marines and similar, you merely need to be opposed to them. This includes getting martyred.
ah 1:58
yeah, both the Imperials and their Chaotic Shadow seem to like using the weak as fuel.
"Their arrogance is matched only by their firepower." Oh, I remember my 3rd edition Eldar codex. That art got me into Eldar back then, as a little baby teenager.
Both lost legions were originally supposed to be around during the Heresy. That's the reason old books say 'almost half' of the legions rebelled during the Heresy, whereas newer books say 'a full half'. Notice that in background material released before the Horus Heresy novel trilogy, legion listings marked II and XI as 'all records expunged after the Horus Heresy'. Heresy was supposed to be this mythical prehistory that's never expanded upon so it was a safe spot to put the lost legions debacle and keep them mysterious. But when they did start expanding upon it and releasing the books, they had to soft retcon the lost legions to be lost even further back, to avoid having to explain them, and creating an awkward situation where it kinda necessitates ANOTHER and completely separate super-betrayal event EVEN FURTHER back in the past, that's somehow EVEN WORSE than the Horus Heresy since the Heresy didn't result in such stringent record burying and mind wiping.
Not really though. The lost Primarchs could have beem erased because their betrayal was not so massive and its impact not so lasting as the Heresy. I mean, even if they could erase all the records of it (which, without the Emperor and Malcador might have been impossible) but doing so would be a very stupid idea given that the traitors in good part were still very much alive.
I look forward to seeing the lost Primearch’s return… and hope both women do well… oooohhhhh
The original 1989 Space Marine rulebook stated that 3 chapters (it predated the common terminology of calling the first founding legions rather than chapters) were wiped out at the Drop Site Massacre and purged from Imperial records, it's the earliest example I know of of something that could have evolved into the two lost legions of today.
The same rulebook identified 17 of the 18 first founding chapters/legions we know today as having fought in the Heresy (the Raven Guard are not mentioned), which seems to match up with the 3 chapters lost at the drop site massacre not having fought in the rest of the Heresy - i.e. at this point neither the Salamanders nor the Iron Hands were amongst those destroyed chapters.
Yeah, the impression I get is that the Imperium was able to eradicate 2nd and 11th and successfully condemn them to damnatio memoriae because they both "rebelled" individually - they could just sic Space Wolves on them, absorb any holdovers into Ultramarines, organize a records purge and some mindwipings, and call it a day. During Heresy we saw multiple Legions betray the Imperium at once, Chaos got involved and disrupted both the information flow and space transit, and in the aftermath of the conflict Malcador was dead-dead, Emperor was effectively dead, survivors on both sides were scattered, and any attempt the Imperium has made to erase or seal away the records about Traitor Legions were nullified by their re-emergence about 1000 years after the Heresy anyway.
it could also be interpreted as the massive propaganda/info control the Imperium had during these years
several times throughout the book series we saw how they were able to completely wipe the record on things, from civilizations, full species (like the Rangdan) and such
furthermore the Imperium created this mentality of both Primarch and Legion infallibility, this the idea Primarchs had fights was sidestepped with honor duels and two full legions could be erased with relative impunity, I mean they erased 20 thunder warrior legions before, they did it again
I remember bringing this codex into my local GW store to prove to the store owner Chaos could take Cypher in their army because no one believed me. Great memories =D
A new Snipe and Wib video always makes my day.
I know right? We need more people in the community like these two.
The days when you could make your army unique. And equip them with anything from your codex.
This is all kinda why I got into Heresy
Yeah, I really miss when 40k was a creative game where you were encouraged to make something unique. HH still has a bunch of wargear customabillity, but they lack the fun madness of early to middle 40k editions
Yeah I miss the three wargear cards or 100 points of wargear that you got to give every character in earlier editions.
Scatter dice appearance, praise to the dark gods
Praise be!
I don't really like the HH novels that much (I'd prefer that era to be a big mythical mystery, personally) but one thing I appreciate is the elaboration that what made a lot of marines turn traitor was this idea of an Astartes warrior-caste superiority. I can appreciate that philosophy, in the abstract. They wanted the Imperium to be their feudal realm, where the Astartes made up a kind of aristocratic nobility above the baseline humans. It's as good a villain motivation as anything.
Also, I like the "smoothness" of the marine on the cover. It implies that his head is almost always inside the controlled environment of the helmet, growing pallid and parchment-like. Neat.
@@justwannabehappy6735 I thought I was the only one! I hated how the real life authors seemed to have eaten up in universe Imperial Propaganda. If the Emperor actually is as powerful as his followers believe, possibly moreso, then the setting is less interesting.
The Emperor is turned into a Batman-like caricature. He knows everything, he's planned everything in advance and he's super powerful. Even in 40k they started doing this. It used to be a fun mystery of the lore over whether the Emperor was alive or not, and it seemed like it's possible if not likely that he was in fact dead. Now they basically confirmed he's not only alive, but he's talking with the Custodes and Gulliman, and he's able to project himself across the universe. Gulliman remarks he's even more powerful than ever.
I also greatly dislike the almost petty reasons the Legions turn traitor. The Iron Warriors betray the Emperor because they felt disrespected and didn't get enough credit? The World Eaters because their Primarch didn't get to die fighting? The only one which seemed justified was Lorgar and the Word Bearers, but in a universe with pretty serious politics these guys just seem to be motivated by petty feuds.
In the end I don't blame them, because this is what the 40k fanbase seems to want and the books get eaten up, but I just wish it still had the mysterious 1984 feel back in the 3rd-4th where things were purposefully vague or hidden.
I missed this video when it was initially released. Finding it randomly in your library was like finding a 20 dollar bill in my pocket.
The Chaos player in my club did up a CSM army for this codex with all the spikes filed off and replaced by trimmed needles splattered with red paint. These were regularly sharpened and re-splattered. I'm pretty sure he didn't want anyone else touching his kit.
I'd really like to see you cover the 2nd ed Chaos book, as it's the one 2nd ed codex I never got a chance to look at.
Paul Sawyer/Fat Bloke did that with his Chaos Knights and Chariots during 6th edition Fantasy.
I love how the photo on the box for Doomrider has the classic DIY fencing made out of that metal mesh stuff used for adding structure to plaster.
Metal lath in the trade. Sounds stupid I know... Isn't fun to work with either.
Doomrider is the greatest Chaos character ever devised. If he shows up in the new codex, I will 100% definitely get that model.
To anyone wondering, Doomrider was a meme when the book as new. That model...
as someone who's never played the eariler editions, i looooove how... chaotic and, as u put it aptly, fluffy everything kinda is
It was a time of "fun over functionality" mindset at GW. Wish they would bring back some of that zaniness back to 40k now with their current ( and exceptional) rules writers.
@@Yurt_enthusiast7 Absolutely!!! Every game was fun above all else back then and every army felt very unique 😊 Even if you got your butt handed to you, there were usually a bunch of funny or memorable moments 😊
Nowadays, the game just feels very bland and boring (I.e. you play all shooting armies the same way and you always just take the best units rather than the coolest ones) 🥱
@bear4278 Yeah totally! The unpredictability of earlier 40k made for more rememberable games.
Ahriman's lesser crimes include pirating mp3s and using a 3D printer to make a gun. Forbidden knowledge.
And overdue (Black) Library fines
@@TheMagicalPinata ahh of course!
Hey now, loyalist, that was a super soaker!
It seems there's some lore floating around about Doomrider being decapitated and his still-living head taken as a trophy by the White Scars - but I have it on good authority that he escaped by chewing one of his teeth into the shape of a D6 and spitting it out to roll a 1 and vanishing.
Ahriman probably has a LITANY of jaywalking offenses and of course the worst crime of all: Tax evasion.
Because he hasn't been in the Imperium for most of 10K years to pay his taxes.
All hail Doomrider!
2:30 - definite Manowar reference
I really would love to see a Part 2 of this that goes into the Second 3rd Edition Chaos Codex as that Codex was so good, it made all other armies look bad, The only way i can describe the Second Third edition codex was that they took the Herohammer aspect of 2nd edition and brought it to third edition warhammer 40k, it was insane how customizable a chaos lord , Daemon prince, retinue or the chosen were, The Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children were very, very strong, the other Legions were not far behind in power level. You could literally have a massive army of firepower and a Daemon prince or chaos lord that could kill even Hive Tyrants in close combat,(after your army with four heavy support shot wiped out more your enemies army in the first two turns) If you played Iron Warriors you could do this. If you played Emperor's Children your opponents (who were often space marines) would get -1 intiative due to the mark of Slannesh. Leading to dominance in close combat. It was a great codex and felt a lot like the Second edition codex:Chaos, I only wish all the other 40k armies had gotten a codex like the Second 3rd edition Chaos codex so it would have been on a more even playing field, instead in the next codex chaos(4th edition) got nerfed into oblivion.
Its always a great day when you two upload a new video, Perfect :)
You two are looking much happier now, I am glad to see it. Love the video, always loved that chaos codex but the one after is the golden age of.... chaos
My best ever "that guy" story involves having to go into the shop, buy a metal blister of Squig Herders, and provide my opponent with a squig because otherwise he refused to accept that this was the fate of Kaldor Draigo.
Axe of Khorne with a bit of luck was amazing against power armor elite units like the Blood Angels' Honor Guard and Death Company.
A peculiar unit was the Veterans. While the loyalists had scouts (the novices) with infiltration rules, CSMs had veterans. They had 2 heavy or 2 specials per units, which was compensated by the Havocs being able to deploy only 3 heavy weapon marines instead of 4.
These little things, alongside with Bikes being the assault squads alongside Berzerkers, made each faction familiar but different with no need for a whole tome of rules. They HAD a different gameplay.
My favourite spine faction motto is
"CITYFIGHT" - a city, while fighting
HE'S POWERED BY [powder that may infuriate the algorithm]!!!
Snowflame and Doom Rider, best of friends.
I still have my Doom Rider. I only got to use him once! I'm currently in the process of repainting him, but he's backlogged thanks to me _also_ renovating my old Chaos Space Marines.
I'm feeling oddly nostalgic now. Also, the old Chaos Dreadnought hits so hard. Helbrutes and the current Dreadnoughts just don't have that silhouette, you know?
Ahrimans lesser offences fill appendices 7 to 947, so 940 appendices of lesser crimes, mighty fine reading i bet!
I still love the cover dudes pointy yet melty candle Bat Chin
Oh, great, now I've got the theme music to the short-lived 1999 Hanna-Barbera cartoon series, "Dooomrider!!!" stuck in my head. "Doomrider!!! [power cord] Rider of Doom!!!"
Chaos space marines and chaos demons should be in one army. I wanted to play word bearers but id be crippling my army if I’d use Chaos Demons.
6:24 Hey, there is a way to bring Juggernauts without riders!
5:13 I just want to take a moment to point out that I notice tiny little sounds like that, and I _dearly_ appreciate them. Every little audio cue that's timed to match up with what's going on satisfies me to no end, especially when it sounds like it's from a Mario game.
_"I think this line means they fell to Chaos mostly via the medium of 'edging'..."_
x3 This is why I love this channel.
But hey, that's how you know it's really started! You listen to a few rock n' roll cassette tapes, get peer pressured into smoking, drink too many energy drinks, and before you know it the Four Aspects have brought your wayward soul into their clutches. Which given what life in the Imperium is like for the average person, doesn't seem _so_ bad.
3:00
Maybe it is accurate? The traitors first had to cull their own ranks before backstabbing the other legions. There were still traitor-legion marines who sided with the Emperor as well as loyal-legion marines who sided with Horus. Numberswise, the loyalists had more. Hence why Horus had to put the Ultramarines out of reach for example.
One of the first GW books I had!
Another retcon intepretation of the 'almost half of the legions turned' fluff could be that not *all* the marines of the Traitor Legions turned. At this point the fluff hadn't really talked about this except some vague references about Isstvan III but a few years later the Index Astartes started talking about Garro etc. And Eventually the Horus Heresy series mentioned bands of thrown off Space Marines who didn't turn with their legion.
Cultists got a Codex Approved entry pretty soon after this from what I remember to appease those who had the old models from what I am guessing was Rogue Trader.
god i hope you guys enjoy making these videos as much as i love watching them
My first Codex I ever bought back in the year 2000. Still love that cover 🤩
16:43 - 3.5 CSM codex was one of Gee Dubs richest in options and most internaly ( externaly...is a diffrent matter ) well balanced books. It was also bullshit overpowered. Like holy Emperor, with some modernising adjustments this book would be in top tier even today.
This was a wonderful trip down memory lane. thank you.
You guys are great, this is the lore that was starito become old when I got into the game like 15 years ago.
I actually gasped in excitement when I saw this in my notifications!
This isn't a democracy, it's a Doomriderocracy!
This was my first Codex, what a jaunt down memory lane. I always loved the red-horned Iron Warriors.
My fave Chaos Legion is the VIII. Ave Dominus Nox!
Loved that the old beasts of nurgle were just big puppy dogs wanting to link you to death..literally
I always stop whatever I'm watching when I find a new CC :3
Ahh. My first codex. It’s always had special place in my heart. And if I may:
“Let the galaxy burn!”
I haven't played Warhammer in 22 years and this was the only book I ever owned. After watching this I'm compelled to dig it out along with my half assembled Khârn model and pick up where I left off.
If they dont include doomrider in their emperors children rework i will fucking riot.
Man, I have that old Chaos Marine from 2nd edition, bought from a friend, they are my favorites!
I remember this codex well. I started playing in my twenties with the 3rd edition Space Marines codex, and few of my friends were using Chaos Marines.
I didn't know all the subtleties of the lore at the time, so i jut loved the fact that they were the evil and twisted version of the imperial marines.
Also remember that lots of my friends complained how you could not give a 4+ invulnerable save to your characters. There was no "chaos Iron Halo", meaning the most common causes of death ot their HQ was "power fist in the face" 😂
Saving for later tonight, but had to comment. This was my first Chaos codex, way back when and I was doing Iron Warriors. That art is so good, so nostalgic already.
Love the 3rd edition content you guys do, it remains the best edition they ever made.
Hell yeah after 5 months you guys are back!!
I have that codex! A utter delight was visiting GWHQ and finding those Chaos Rhinos on display!
My favourite chaos legion is the hacks. The much maligned, often forgotten, recently made up warband devoted to Kackle the demiurge of comedy. Running hither and yon over the chaos wastelands, their rubber chickens and tired jokes about what one cannot say anymore psychically damaging all who hear them.
The codex I've used the most. I've had all the weird stuff that can happen in it. Greater daemons possessing lords who cost more points than than they do. A khorne berserker champion scoring 13 hits with an axe of khorne. Possessed gettin power weapons and a 3+ invulnerable save with +1A. Good times. Bikes were rubbish back then and raptors again over pointed but otherwise great army. Chaos cultists were added in a WD article. I left school around the time the 3.5 codex came out so didn't get to play much after that due to work. So the 3 years this was out was really my 40k prime.
Chaos was my first codex. The artwork of the Obliterators in their unit entry margin sold me on the game. I was forever upset I never got a power armored Iron Warrior with a Demolisher Cannon in his chest.
Great books and a fun video again,still got my plastic chaos marines in my black legion army and about another 12 somewhere undercoated ready to finish.
This is bout as back to basics as possible, luv it!
The plastic and metal Plague Marines available at the time were my favorite models. Not particularly fond of their latest incarnations.
Great video. I was playing 4th edition for the last two years and fought the World Eaters using 3.5 book. It was no good that I am planning to build a chaos army for my own
I really love those older codexes! Your videos always hit me in the nostalgia bean. Can't wait for you to do Angels Of Death and Space Crusade!!❤❤❤❤❤
It's very good to see snipe looking so well I'm glad your getting better❤
You guys are awesome!
Thanks for the laughs and lore 💜💜💜
I love the humor in this series.
This didnt feel like 20 minutes at all!
The ultimate 3rd edition codex! This truly was the golden age of 40k.
This was my first codex ❤
There's certainly some nostalgia here, but fluff/atmosphere wise it's still my favourite (2nd ed would probably get the first place but alas I started in 3rd ed). There was much more room for exploration, a less "serious" and fixed background - yes HH some novels are fun but I preferred the chance to have some bits here and feel free to explore from that.
My legion of choice was Night Lords, purely based on colour scheme since there was little info on them, and they still are my 40k army. I also built a berzerkers army which was my main thing until 3.5, when NL took definitley over. In 3.0 we usually played 2 vs 1 games of Berzerkers and Emperor Children allied against the Eldar. We usually got erased until chaos cultists appeared in some White Dwarf and we finally stood a chance using them as decoys. It was SUPER fun back then.
3.5 chaos marines codex was better, stronger, more complex and whatever but the pure fun of 3.0 with some chapter approved tweaks is where my best 40k days lie
Love this codex/era of 40k and I have a huge soft spot for the 2nd edition Chaos models. The demons from this era are still some of my favourite GW models.
"Ask us about any of our armies in 10th Edition [regarding how GW always removes fun themed lists each edition]"
Okay! Consider this an open invitation to respond to this comment and just go off on your grievances.
Until they get back to you with their grievances, I'll note that 3rd edition had three Ork lists (Orks, Speed Freeks in Codex: Armageddon, and Ferals from Chapter Approved). Now we have one, and a bunch of the units last having rules in those books haven't reappeared.
I think for 10th they mean that a lot of SM models no longer have rules in the codex. AFAIK other factions didn't really lose any units in the transition, and SM lost a ton, from Land Speeders to Assault Marines.
Oh my God(s), this was my first codex ever, and my first army ever, with a composition dictated by what models were available and cheap, with crappy conversions, and a shitty very black paint job, because hey, bad guys I guess. I have waited so long for you to review this! Thank you!
It’s pretty interesting to see that at this point thousand sons seem to be pretty much formed as what we know them as now, barring their use of inferno-bolters and a lack of psychic rules
The Codex I started with!, ran Tsons, and I remember all my demons having square bases.
That plastic five man squad of chaos marines were the first warhammer minis I bought as well. Still have them too
I still have fondness for this Codex, cus even though I had the 2nd Ed Chaos Marine book and love it, I got it right at the tail end between 2nd finishing and 3rd starting.
So this was the first book I got to use on the tabletop, berzerker spam galore. It was glorious!
OK, I remember that there was a quote where a well educated imperial citizen was under the impression that Lorgar was loyalist. This belief may be widespread, given the Primark’s importance in the creation of the Imperial Cult. That could explain why a source would not realize that the split of traitor and loyalist legions was 9 to 9.
13:27 - it’s just a list of all his overdue library books I think.
😜
That possessed marine bit is awesome.
Great vid. Thanks for that. I had 1 game with the Doomrider book. Then there was the holy 3.5. You are right. These where better times for the game.
I know it's been a while since this video came out so it's likely no one will see this, and someone may have already said this that I didn't see, but the line that "almost half" of the legions fell to Chaos and the fact that the Word Bearers are mysteriously absent from the breakdown of the traitor legions may actually be outright intentional. This is because the Ecclesiarchy's basically bible, the Lectitio Divinitatus, was written by Lorgar, Primarch of the Word Bearers, and thus their existence, or at least their treachery, is generally kept out of Imperial records on purpose by those who know of it.
I love these retrospectives. I was not playing or collecting 40K at the time, but the variety of fluff options must have been exciting for Chaos players.
I have an unpainted SM bike, just the thing for a DOOMRIDER mount. I can hear the capital letters in the name :)
New to the channel love the video!! Looking forward to checking out the other ones in the series. 3rd edition is when I got into 40k and fell off in 5th but got back at the end 8th so it's fun reminiscing on the old codexs and models!
Love these older looks at 40k. The last I played was 3rd edition. Mainly eldar, marines and started a small chaos army. Gone back to being interested in the lore and stories for about a year now and have been tempted to collect again. It's just moved so much since I was a kid I find it overwhelming. Plus I wanna play a new faction but don't like the aesthetics of any others lol, although the sisters are becoming quite appealing if not expensive... Is great to reminisce about the good ol' days though.
ahh yes, another Codex Compliant to brighten my day. :)
Waited for this to be on yt to watch, hope the ad revenue helps ^^ definitely worth the wait.
Also loving the nails, I'm sure DOOMRIDEEEEER also approves.
A new Snipe and Wib video is exactly what I wanted today, and with Doomrider?? Ambassador you're spoiling us
So hype for more regular Codex Compliant! ❤
I can't see that cover without getting The Dirge of Slaanesh stuck in my head
Just a note: If I remember the 3rd ed rules correctly, a wounds allocated in Close Combat could not be beyond 2" of the model that caused it, so the "in theory the single lord rolling 6's consecutively wiping out an entire squad of gaunts" is even less likely. Still fun thought experiment though.
Perhaps the best codex Chaos Space Marines ever had!
except for the one that came out later that edition, perhaps
I love the Codex Compliant series!
I love the new Night lords and how they look but the old goofy look of them is so damn charming
I still think that this codex still has the best cypher lore in it
I’d love to see you guys tackle the 2nd edition Codex Chaos. Personally my favourite, with Angles of Death a close second.
Hated 3rd edition when it came out as the points had been halved, but by the gods it was the quickest and simplest edition of 40k ever and I've grown to love it