Blame Me: The INSIDER Secrets of Windows Product Activation!
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- Опубліковано 15 січ 2021
- Dave reveals the stories behind the first version of Windows Product Activation, or WPA, the anti-piracy technology he worked on while at Microsoft as an engineer. From Product ID to Hardware ID to Confirmation ID he details each step in the Activation process and why it's needed.
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Me, a few weeks back: Why does UA-cam keep suggesting this guy's videos?
Me, now: Why didn't UA-cam tell me about this channel ages ago?
Because UA-cam is designed for advertisers, they prefer to downrank what would be controversial like talking about piracy and the like, advertisers don't like to put their brand next to something that's controversial because it would give their lawyers a bad day of advising them it's not a good idea.
So UA-cam prefers the big money makers where advertisers bid the most on one thing and if something is popular like let's play's then of course it's going to make the most money because kids like watching others play games it's like playing speak and spell, and of course it's safe, education is a safe topic to talk about but if you're a professor of quantum physics you're not wanting to learn about social studies on children with social development issues unless of course you are a mad scientist that want to bring forth the next evolution of astro engineers... or you have children yourself.
Linus tech tips makes money because it makes people... feel intelligent and dumbs down a lot of stuff, doesn't make them feel like they are watching a video version of a technical manual, and he keeps their attention.
While I was doing my cert II in networking and trying to understand how Windows Server works, I would have loved UA-cam to just pop this guy into my inbox but by looking at this guy he was probably at Microsoft at the time
hahaha me too
Wow.... just wow. This channel needs to hit 1M subs. 20 minutes went by like nothing. I'm giving you a 5.0, Dave!
saaaaaaaaaaaaame
Felt same here!
The problems with your activation system started when you had to call Microsoft, but you are a 12yo living in eastern Europe and there is no Microsoft rep in your country, and even if your license is legit, 10min call abroad costs more than your monthly allowance, which you spent on new hard drive which caused the license issue to begin with.
And the funniest part is that the pirated windows version was much easier to install and "activate." After so much work in thinking, programming, maintaining call centers, it must have been very sad to learn that the "protection" was successfully circumvented within months of release. And although at first the pirates were somewhat surprised by the unexpected 180-day time bomb, but a couple months later it was bypassed too. In general, after a year or so, protection has posed more problems for legal users than for pirates.
It can be worse. You're eastern European teen just still trying to speak English and Microsoft rep is some lady somewhere in eastern Asia that is also just still trying to speak English. After more than half an hour of back and forward it ended with successful activation, but in the morning you need to inform your parents that you kind of had international call with Taiwan, Hong Kong or who knows which country and that they should brace for impact before monthly phone bill arrives.
Outsourcing call centers is just ... evil.
even worse, if some hardware drivers had to be installed exactly in the right order and you had to try and try again wiping and reinstalling until you found the right order and in the meantime reached the installation limit and the licence became useless
or you bought the licences then you get monthly letters from BSA threatening you with up to 10 years in prison because in Eastern Europe copyright infringement is in the penal code, but had you used pirated copies nobody would have bothered you ever
@@EmilNicolaiePerhinschi Didn't used to have that issue, our first intellectual property laws got passed in Windows 8 era. Home users upgraded pirated 7, 8 and 8.1's to Windows 10 and went legit that way. It's exactly what Microsoft wanted - one of the reasons 7 Ultimate and 8 top tier upgraded to 10 pro only.
Even today, government only moves against business users without valid licenses - but they won't bother any company for using Home, Student, etc. over Professional or Enterprise editions.
Conscientious people would reinstall many times with WGA remover tool and "activate" in order to find proper driver order and only than reinstall with licensed copy to properly activate.
@@sigun0 Think music, TV and film industries and DRM. hahahahaha. It's funny how these companies NEVER learn. Who is going to buy an MP3 they can only play on 3 devices when they can download an MP3 they can play anywhere?
Honestly, these guys are their own worst enemies and they just don't get it.
That one guy: There's no such thing as a read-only registry key.
This guy: Yes there is, because I invented it.
What a flex to be able to use. That's wild!
Quit simping for scumbags
Is that the same as Protected Storage? PStore.exe
"Source?"
"I am the source!"
But they can run some services to block the particular registry key editing.
K7 antivirus does that. You can check by yourself by trying to change its registry key.
How does it work? You know what happens if I say too much
I used to do phone activation for XP. We were instructed that at the end, customers were always right and you had to activate even if clearing house smelled shenanigans.
Compare that to how things are done today. Windows activation wasn’t evil per say but it certainly opened the door to modern DRM and reinforced the notion that we don’t own the software we paid for.
Let me be honest with you: here in Eastern Europe literally NOBODY believed that Microsoft would be benevolent with its Windows users regarding product activation, because it was perceived as an arrogant, malicious American company that even got away with its shenanigans thanks to American government backing (mind you this was at the time when all the antitrust charges against them were dropped by the government of that bastard Dubya). Which probably discouraged legal Windows use even further.
Dave's next video: How I got kidnapped by Steve Ballmer and escaped using the Windows Task Manager
You've got to grant me that dude does look a little like Steve. And I'm not shafting him, I just noticed the coincidence!
@@DavesGarage in air quotes "coincidence".
Throws chair...
Running and ducking from flying chairs.
""He is also infamous for a legend in which he threw a chair at former employee, Mark Lucovsky, after the engineer told Ballmer that he would be leaving Microsoft to join its competitor, Google. "
“Prior to joining Google, I set up a meeting on or about November 11, 2004 with Microsoft’s CEO Steve Ballmer to discuss my planned departure….At some point in the conversation Mr. Ballmer said: “Just tell me it’s not Google.” I told him it was Google.
At that point, Mr. Ballmer picked up a chair and threw it across the room hitting a table in his office. Mr. Ballmer then said: “F-ing Eric Schmidt is a f-ing p-sy. I’m going to f-ing bury that guy, I have done it before, and I will do it again. I’m going to f-ing kill Google.”
"seatbelts and airbags" yes that is where I thought it was going.
Same I 😂
This is the comment I was looking for. Thanks.
2 condoms with tiger balm in between. If one of 'em fails, someone is really going to know about it.
@@PinataOblongata that'd get someone's attention
@@PinataOblongata I've heard Deep Heat/IcyHot. In Austrailia we'd say "Double tarp it, with a layer of deep heat in between" (tarp is short for tarpaulin)
Having my motherboard blow was a huge bummer. Replacing it was a pain. Realizing after doing so that I had to re-buy Windows again, even though I was still using all the same parts other than the mobo was infuriating!
As someone who had to move a hard drive over to an older, but virtually identical, laptop due to a screen break: customer support is understanding, and will help you get your activation squared away. The lady I got didn't ask any questions that struck me as her being suspicious of me (not even of the "I'm required by my company to be suspicious" variety) or try to put up any unnecessary red tape or anything!
@@PhirePhlame Yup, my copy of Windows 10 deactivated itself when I changed my motherboard, gave Microsoft a call and was rather surprised at how quick and easy the process was to get things reactivated. One of the nicest and smoothest customer service calls I've ever had, top marks to Microsoft for that one.
@@FuzzWoof Even now, the activation troubleshooter in Windows 10 and 11 is an absolutely amazing tool. I've had my computer deactivate on Windows 10 after a GPU change. Went to the troubleshooter and in seconds it reactivated.
Same exact thing happened to me.
One hardware change doesn't trigger that. Multiple changes do. I had to reactivate after upgrading my mobo, cpu and ram but I'm not rebuying Windows for that. I paid for it and it's the one and only time I'm okay with using less than legal means to get around it.
You still deserve a 5.0 score for your channel. It's absolutely mindblowing to get all the precious pieces of information you put out there for us, as well as hystorical stuff and whatnot. You're a legend, Dave !
"It's the most reliable axe I've ever owned. I've only replaced the blade twice and the handle three times!"
A good axe head will last a lifetime if cared for properly. Handles suffer the most during splitting and they shrink loosening up, so you'll want to keep replacing them.
Yes, and if you purchased a license to chop down trees then it shouldn't matter how many handles and blades you have used.
But is the license applied to you to chop trees, or authorization to use that axe to do the chopping?
I have a driver's license that lets me drive any car up to a certain weight.
I have a registration that lets anyone with a driver's license drive my Prius on the public streets, but shows I own it.
As for replacing the blade twice and handle 3 times, you have to also factor timeframe of the replacements to determine quality.
Such replacements in one or two years time chopping once a week? Poor.
Over 2 decades chopping each workday? Excellent.
I keep thinking about the joke from the beginning of the movie "John Dies at the End."
"That's the axe what slayed me.....but was it?"
:')
idk why but i laughed at this for at least a minute
4:10 "I was not gonna rootkit the machine..."
2005: _Sony BMG has entered the chat._
Just about every anti-virus rootkits the OS. It has to do that to "compete" with malware.
@@zwz.zdenek unless it's McAfee because it's essentially a virus :D
Epic comment!
Hahah so true that it's sad
I've noticed that I've had more issues with systems when an antivirus program was installed versus one where none were installed...
Yes, I for one would like to thank you for Window's activation. Without out it I would never had made the jump to Linux! When I received a demand for £65 to use a copy of XP I had already bought for my upgraded computer boiled my piss. So again, thank you. I've been a happy Linux Mint user since 2006.
I guess if you're one of the 5% who can tolerate Linux as their main desktop system then yes, lucky you. I'm not one of them.
@@toby9999 Tolerate? Unless you are running specialized software only written for Windows, or are a hard-core gamer, you can do pretty much everything on Linux these days. Even hard-core gaming!
But hey, use what you like.
The fundamental problem with all DRM no matter how carefully engineered is that it will only ever bite honest customers.
Exactly. Especially in the case of games. DRM is really only there to protect the sales for the first few days of the release. I always think it's funny to read forum posts of innocent buyers of the product when the DRM breaks the game and they get accused of stealing it when they didn't. About 4 or 5 years ago there was a flight simulator developer that put a program that would steal chrome passwords and send them unencrypted back to the company. Their excuse for putting it in there was that they were trying to steal information from pirates.
Also, there was another flight sim DRM problem with the PMDG MD-11. If the DRM suspected that you using a cracked copy, if you attempted to install a livery for the plane, it would just delete your whole simobjects folder. That means all aircraft models, default and purchased downloaded content would of had to be reinstalled. If it was something that was not downloadable anymore then it was just gone forever. Most of the people that were effected by this were people that paid over 60 dollars for the addon. The liveries that would bomb the simobjects folder also cost money.
It really added to the failure in uptake of BluRay. They doubled down on DVD's and then some.
Same argument is made for gun control, the war on drugs, etc. It rarely changes the mind of those in power though.
are you stupid? He LITERALLY addressed it.
Thankfully there's hundreds of millions of honest customers, if not more.
Ah yes, activating windows over the phone or as we called it, "The Windows 7 Nuclear Launch Codes"
"Choose the option to activate over the phone" Step 1 of the installation instructions of every pirate version of windows I ever used...
I love that name
@@memitim171 then put everything as 0 (that's how the office crack works, so i'm assuming it's that here)
This goes back to before Windows 7... had to do this for Windows XP.
@@thepwrtank18cool
Not often you get to hear these kind of stories from folks who were there and involved. Thanks Dave!
try to read the book "Showstopper". It's a great look back at this era. It's so cool to hear Dave talk about this.
Love looking under the hood with you, thanks!
Brings back memories, and a very useful tip if I can remember it in a few years time. Two types of protection, Seatbelts and Airbags. Having fun binge watching these vids. So much history is being explained and reasons giving for the pain we suffered from.
I wish I found this channel sooner. I love these looks back to the past. Early computing is so interesting to me, everything was so new and exciting. I love hearing about guys like Steve, Bill, but I love even more to hear from the engineers who were on the ground really building this stuff. Bravo on an amazing career, and thanks for building what I love and use everyday.
One of the best tech channels on the internet right now. Nothing rehashed, no crazy editing or effects to cover up bad content.
Dave i'd buy you a beer one day!
Wow, thanks! Please let folks know so the channel grows :-)
In high school, some kids took "multiple layers of protection" a totally different way not knowing it actually decreased the amount of protection. Glad to see you teaching your boys right.. seatbelts and airbags all the way.
Yeah, using a helmet would only be an extra when you already have two trusty protections on your body, while driving.
Though I'm struggling to understand what the seatbelt would refer to
\*lays layer upon layer of thousands of permuatation of SSL and TLS on top of another protocol\*
But in ｔｕｒｄ ｗｏｒｌｄ ｃｏｕｎｔｒｉｅｓ like Indonesia, the seatbelts and airbags don't even matter because they wanna die like a real human
Oh, did i mention if Indonesia loves to break the traffic rules (lane hogging, speeding, carrying beyond capacity, road rage, driving/riding under influences, distracted driving/riding, using rotators and strobes even though you have no interest to using it)
@@Just-View When wearing a helmet don't forget the neck brace as well. Keeps you from snapping your neck in a sudden stop. So always double up your protection.
When you said read-only registry key , I was one of the thousands of programmers who said “what?”
I am still unsure what he is on about... Its not one of those invisible "owned-by-system" keys that you have to access from WinPE?
I'm enjoying your stories and the context Dave, thanks so much for sharing with us!
I’d like to hear more about the logon screen, it’s evolution from Windows 95 to XP.
Yes! This! Please talk to us about the Cancel button and why it works as it used to
I wouldn't pair Windows 95 with XP in this regard. Logon was radically different in 9X (95, 98, ME) than it is with NT-based systems (NT, 2000, XP, Vista…).
Did 9X even have a login without using Netware etc? I think the evolution is more from NT 3.5 -> XP
I'd like to know why I can't just start typing the login, or why the start screen Loves to get into a state where it won't go away preventing login
@Mike Manfredi Yeah, it wasn't meant as a login to the computer, just a login to the computer's local network credentials.
Man, I remember in the early days when I was testing OS capability with a BIOS I was working on... I went to install XP on my reference design, and didn't have the product key handy, so I entered an MS Office key I did happen to have handy, and Windows just accepted it! This did stop working on later builds, but I did get a bit of a laugh out of this.
Laughs 20 times.
@@BulletproofKuloodporny You have 5 laughs left before you must activate.
@@RogerWKnight del c:
I remember installing something -- Windows, Office, Visual Studio -- I can't remember, it's been like three decades or so since then.
All I can remember is that it was a beta version, and that I could not locate the product key they gave me. In frustration, I entered either all zeroes, or 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... etc. -- and it worked.
In fact, I'm pretty sure this happened twice, one time with all zeroes, one time with 1 2 3 4 ... (different products, I _think_ but am not sure).
I think the only numbers that counted were the last 4 or so to validate the os code, so even if you had mostly 0’s as long the last couple ones are valid. Well let’s say there weren’t too many combinations, so it’s reasonable that at that time most other ms software with a key could work on older os like 95 98 etc but not anymore from vista onwards or 7 onwards not sure.
Thank you for the content you’re making. This is like the genius behind the magic of my childhood. My first pc was a windows 95 and I’ve grown up with every operating system since. Really fascinating insights 😊
What I always found interesting was how companies like Microsoft, Adobe, and many others were crying about piracy all the while they were growing larger and larger, well before DRM like product activation, SecuROM, StarForce, and others came about, so it always felt really disingenuous to make such claims that were impossible to actually quantify.
Something else to consider is that PA came out around the time period of the Sony Rootkit, among other DRMs that acted just like malware, which was seen by many as a massive violation of the public trust, that such corporations had no problem showing complete disregard for the rights of their own customer's, that paying customers were going to be treated as criminals and be forced to prove that they obtained the software/game legitimately.
Methods like PA always felt like an overreach that violates the First Sale Doctrine which states that after money has changed hands, the producer should not be involved in the operation of the product thereafter, but by forcing customers to prove they bought the title legitimately, they are involving gatekeeping after the point of purchase, which many have argued is inappropriate, as it is not a corporation's place to declare their customers to be criminals unless they jump through hoops, past the point of sale, when their should be zero obligation to do so.
So while I cannot encourage piracy of software and media, I certainly understand where a lot of people who were coming from, and that a lot of companies helped create the situation by engaging in more and more nefarious means that clearly went too far (such as Sony BGM's Rootkit) that were harmful to users.
Ther are a lot of arguments that could be made for pirating media.......movies tv games........the copyright laws need to be redone.........I got a notice from my ISP because I downloaded a TV show......a TV show.....that can be watched for free by any idiot with a TV and an antenna......or recorded to a DVR......but i downloaded it off the internet and i get flagged......on the other side, piracy of software is wrong.....(and I know games are technically software but I dont have time or the space to address that)......the simple fact of software is you can easily find a free version for whatever need you have.....so theres no need to steal software
Particularly galling when these companies already have a monopoly on entire global industries, the least they can do is not bloat their products with intrusive DRM. This is the sole reason I stopped using Adobe, I’d rather use an inferior product.
Thankfully Microsoft disable auto run so the Sony Rootkit does not work anymore. 😂
Whatsmore,iTunes can copy CDs with Sony Rootkit in them. 😂
"it always felt really disingenuous to make such claims that were impossible to actually quantify." - Indeed, the claims made on those grounds were completely bogus and just figments of sleazy corporate lobbyists' imagination.
"Methods like PA always felt like an overreach that violates the First Sale Doctrine" - They do, up to this day, but thanks to LOTS of corporate psychopaths probably even precedent rulings have been made which have basically vacated the First Sale Doctrine anyway.
"a lot of companies helped create the situation by engaging in more and more nefarious means that clearly went too far (such as Sony BGM's Rootkit) that were harmful to users." - Unfortunately piracy also made it easier for this corporate vermin to get away with their wrongdoings, because people who had the skills to recognize how nefarious their steps were just shrugged it off saying "meh, I'll just pirate it instead".
The UA-cam AI did me a solid with this one for once.... This whole channel, even going by skimming previous uploads, is an absolute necessity of a subscription
Indeed.
The bigger picture is that Microsoft wanted everyone on the planet to run their software, even if a substantial number did not pay for it. Windows and Office became (and still are) the de facto world standard that everyone in business and academia needs to learn and to use. Microsoft is worth 2.27 trillion. Mission accomplished.
This is further evidenced by the fact that workarounds were built-in in win95 and much of the software of that era. Typing in a bunch of 1's when it asked for a product key, it would accept it without further question. Then, as now I suspect, market dominance is far more important than preventing piracy.
@@tythagoras5787 even now i believe you can still use all Xs to bypass the key entry and get yourself into the evaluation period (worked with win10 but i havent tried on 11 since i didnt do a fresh reinstall)
True.
But. Their security is clunky and difficult.
And .0002% of Windows users are going to pirate it and show Microsoft who’s in charge. It’s like you didn’t even read the comments Tailspin. Jeez.
I try to avoid Windows, been using Linux for 10 years.
@@bwgti Running unlicensed Microsoft software was extremely common 10 or 15 years ago. I developed Access database systems freelance for 20 years (retired last year) so I got to see a lot of offices. I recall one small office on a building development site running a few Windows PCs with only one Office 2010 CD. It let them install freely 3 or 4 times, then one day when I was there working they needed to load on a new machine and it refused. Their solution ? Call Microsoft support with a sob story about their old machine dying and get given a new authorisation code. Licensing just seemed to be for big corporate customers- everyone else could freely pirate, presumably to build the usage base and eliminate the competition.
My grandfather used to say "Locks keep honest people honest" Software seems kind of similar - you're never going to stop a determined pirate and locking honest customers out of their machines is way more damaging than forcing a hacker to work a little harder.
As an avid tech nerd all my life I gotta say finding your channel and video's has been one of my greatest treasure finds ever!
Love your content and the no nonse type of story telling, absolute excellent!
Unfortunately, product activation can really hamper repair of things like CAT scanners that run on older copies of Windows, on isolated machines. If I can’t activate the OS, then, when the machine fails, it could be disastrous. Especially when replacing the equipment isn’t an option. Not saying people shouldn’t pay for software, but owning software instead of a license is definitely an important use case.
Clasic case of project/developer stupidity, ie the PM/developer did not design the software or project to be maintained. They did not forsee that the OS would not need to be upgraded and did not plan to support the software that was developed, they assumed they could keep using the same hardware and software for 20 or 30 years which is never going end well. This is not Windows Activartion issue it is a project managment issue that did not look at the full expected life cycle of the product.
This is common to 99% of all projects as project managers and developers are paid to deliver a project withing a given short timescale somwher between 1 day and 12 months not 20 years.
@@jeremyroberts2782 unfortunately, none of what you said there matters to the hospital that bought the best product they could at the time they bought it. It’s still a Windows Activation issue because when someone designs a product, they generally use whatever is available at the time. So, the hospital buys the best product available, but can’t necessarily replace the entire thing when the computer fails. And while we might like a company to update their software for old products, they may have made THEIR money and moved on. This leaves the hospital with 2 options: scrape together money they weren’t planning to spend yet, or, more likely, try to find a way to restore the old machine. But, without a way to activate the box (say it ran Windows 7) and no updated drivers for a newer version of Windows, they might be spending that money on the CAT scanner instead of something else they really needed. Other option might be to send people elsewhere until they can update the machine, but given how fast tech moves, they’ll likely be in that mode again. If on the other hand, there was a better option, like to actually own the copy of Windows for that device, then the machine could likely be used until it was actually slated for upgrade. Note that this goes for MANY other devices. Generally, if it might require a specialized driver, it may only have been targeted for the current crop of hardware and software available. You can’t necessarily expect them to know where Microsoft is going. And when things do change, you can’t expect them to update all of their old stuff. The people that built that CAT scanner might not even still work there. But, what you might expect, when you buy something you do plan on owning for a while, is that a license activation doesn’t stop you from continuing to use the product until you are ready to scrap it. But Microsoft doesn’t give you such an option with something like, say, Windows 7, because they don’t even run the activation servers anymore. Just a question, if you need a vehicle, do you own or lease? I’d guess lease. It can be quite expensive to replace certain equipment frequently. Not saying it should never be replaced, but expecting people can always update is pretty short-sighted. Everyone would love to replace most everything they own with something new, but eventually you’d like to do something more sustainable.
@@roboknight I buy my cars second hand. They have a life expectancy based on currant age, condition and expected usage and they are replaced at a given time. It is called life cycle planning.
If you plan for the lifecycle of a product to be 20 years you should not be specifying a Windows OS as they are only supported for 10 years unless you expect to do regular updates or refreshes, Computer hardware is unlikely to be last that long so you will need to plan for replacement of that.
Even governments refresh Aircraft airframes , wings and engines or 20 year old planes. but for some reason no one thinks about these things up front in any technology project and actually looks at the life expectancy of the device and maps out how that will unfold over the intervening years.
If you specify a sledge hammer to crack a nut it i s not the hammers fault when in smashes the nut to pieces.
Did the Windows XP Embedded SKU require online activation?
@@soundspark Yeah i don't think it actually does.
I always just lied on the phone activation saying "I only activated two pcs" despite using the same copy of windows on like a dozen friend's PCs. It always worked
enjoy hell
@@butter262 Lovely tropical weather I hear
@@butter262 I will lol
I was working in a client’s offices one day and they had already installed The same copy of Office on 4 PCs, but the 5th wouldn’t activate. The boss told the secretary to phone Microsoft and tell them their PC had died and they were loading up the replacement. It worked of course. Tbh there were so many ways of getting round activation, using academic copies, etc. it seemed that paying for software was just something big companies did. The rest of us it used it for free and helped with the marketing effort in the process.
Then you might as well download the WPA crack
Thank you for your videos in general, but mainly for the videos from my formative years with computers (94 - 2006). You've jogged so many memories from a time I had more hair and was way more confident in my abilities.
Great work! Always wished there was some program for someone who struggled to get the hardware pieces together on a home built machine but I'm getting a sense that the backend server has some mercy on activations onboarding.🎉
Its crazy to think that this implementation is most likely still in use somewhere in windows 10.
I imagine stuff has changed but this series has really amazed me with how much stuff still *IS* the same as 20 years ago!
@@DavesGarage it seems the old saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it" fully applies at the core level.
Adding an App store was a great idea to copy the Apple revenu stream.
✌️
👏
I recently upgraded my motherboard and CPU. Activation failed and I had to spend over 45 minutes on the phone to Microsoft support.. transferred between various agents and had to email them PDFs of my invoice for motherboard and CPU before they would re-active my PC. Towards the end of the call I was starting to consider just buying another copy of Windows... glad I did not... but gosh what a horrible customer experience. This was a great example of paying customers [me] suffering when the pirates just enjoy their free software.
Some of it must be still there, I changed my mobo and cpu, and had to call to reactivate. Sent them proof of purchase of the old mobo, click. Activated.
@@saveker With Win10 you can bind your License to a Microsoft account. If it fails activation, you can then choose "Troubleshooting -> I changed my hardware" and select a license for your Windows edition from your account. It's quite handy to save your license this way (could also theoretically maybe transfer to another PC this way)
I'm in no way an expert programmer, I just like to listen to interesting stories. Keep 'em coming!
Will do! Send me ideas on what to cover!
@@DavesGarage hey Dave, do you happen to know about the NSA_KEY in Windows?
Thank you for bringing these videos, they’re really interesting
I'm not a programmer at all but find this stuff extremely fascinating.
How about blue screen and windows games
@@DavesGarage would love to know if you know the real origin of the "Mr. Enigma" registry key.
Also be interesting to see an explanation of why Windows still has reserved filenames for "CON", "PRN" etc. and the history of those device names.
Discovered some other interesting quirks too like why excel only supports path lengths of only 218 chars due to the way it references other workbooks.
I just got here. Your channel is utterly FASCINATING!! THANK you for the stories and vast knowledge.
Fascinating! This is the kind of living history that needs to be preserved. Subscribed!
Fun fact: Here in germany it is not allowed by law to bind a software licence to hardware. So you can take your Windows licence from one PC to the next.
Oh I remember that hell back then MS got into. People threatened to sue them if they are not stopping this crap.
Somebody moved from a Dell PC to a DIY one and of course, the MAK didn't work. We actived it illegally but the key was still his and he bought it with his Dell PC.
Now we use digital keys and no media anymore, so it's not really easier but possible to just activate with a illegal key. Even go around the problem with own KMS servers on the router or somewhere is a way MS will never got rid off. But they are only hunting for bigger companies, not private persons.
Though why does Windows still say that the hardware has changed and that i need to buy a new Windows 10 license every time i change something major on my PC (which i do alot)
@@onix331 Good question, i can't answer it tho. I had no problems so far with my licences. The most i had to do was to register my XP by phone and had a human asking me if i really had deleted XP from the other PC.
@@onix331 i changed my whole PC (even from intel to amd), just nvme drive with Windows 10 intallation was from the old PC, and it did not complain (even that nvme was not original installation drive, I moved win10 install from another ssd in old pc to it, so in a way this was completely new pc)
@@onix331 So what did you change ? Mainboard ? Just use the old key and phone activation, it will ask you on how many pcs its installed and you say 1, that's it.
Former Microsoft Escalation engineer here ( support ) that interfaced with Windows QFE group. So I was one of the guys asking the devs for hotfixes. . Really enjoying the Windows history stuff. I have a lot of knowledge but not like this. Very interesting stuff please keep it up! I seem to recall is that WPA had some roots in Office and BradG had a lot to do with it for the Terminal Server product it actually TSLS which the Windows core product borrowed. It's also important to note that Windows server and Windows workstation are the same code. The build number or release may and does differ but all the same code base .
Txs Greg for putting in your sweat equity to keep it huming.
Windows is the first OS stack that made "the web" an household staple through 56k USR Modems.
🤗
Dave, one consequence of WPA is when building an XP retro gaming PC I essentially had to hack the activation even though I think I personally own five or six Windows licenses. I understand the risks of Windows XP in everyday use, but the 32-bit version still has a lot to offer - lots of compatibility and hardware audio. But once the OS reaches its end of life, no activation servers essentially means the OS is dead or you have to look for a shady cracked version that probably has malware to steal the non-existent personal info on that computer, but also maybe compromise your whole network.
i think they had cracked the phone activation so you can safely run that on a VM
That's intentional. Upgrade and enjoy paying for getting snooped on.
@@sniglom It's not like I'm gonna keep on using Windows XP on my daily driver or get on the Internet with an XP PC.
They could just remove WPA in a final update when it stops being supported and be done with it.
Because, you know, those who want to pirate XP will keep pirating it, WPA or not. Even Windows 11 can easily be pirated. At this point WPA is just making life harder for people like me, not software pirates.
@@thebayandurpoghosyanshow I run arch btw.
As a software engineer for 20 years (currently a director), I absolutely love these videos. Such a wealth of information!
as a current microsoft employee, as well as a computer history buff, and one fascinated by Microsoft's history, this sceatches all the right itches. :D
Which team are you on, if you can share? :)
@@masterman1502 not the spell check team
@@unnamedchannel1237 lol
_Richard Stallman has left the chat_
Stop him! He didn't even pay for a ticket!
It's getting stuffy in here. Can somebody open up some windows?
@@DavesGarage He paid for the ticket, he just paid in cash so no one would know
Thanks for sharing! Genuinely interesting hearing the stories only attained through a longs and storied career :)
Hi Dave,
I like the content and the format.
Doing a lot of work with public and private keys at the moment and it got me thinking, what if you just overwrite the public key with your own. Niceto know that there are checks and balances and "If you tinker we can see you".
Just wanted to start a dialog. Will have a think about what I would like to hear.
In the mean time glad to hear you're doing it for the subs out there
" I knew I did pretty well for once " - The guy that had previously invented Zip folders and Task Manager in his spare time
Ah windows xp activation circa 2001...
"Windows needs to activate before logging in"
Okay I'll just run the activation...
Puts in product key
"Activated!"
System reboots
"Windows needs to activate before logging in"
Wtf I just activated, I'll run it and see what happens, what the hell
"Windows is already activated!"
System reboots
Fml
what did people do in those situations?
@@A_Box "upgraded" to windows 98 or 2000.
@@A_Box Usually got a cracked copy or copy that had a volume license associated with it. MS dropped those kinds of licenses years ago.
There was a trick we used to use I don’t recall what it was but I remember having to deal with that for a couple of clients.
It is actually very enjoyable to listen to you and the stories too! (And you learn stuff woohoo!) Thanks!
I am a proud recipient of one of the rare 5.0 review scores that Dave mentioned in the video.
Cool, I've talked to a couple of people in the last few days that had done it. Congrats!
I have close friends who are MSFT employees from the time of stack ranking. When MSFT got rid of it everyone rejoiced (except the folks who constantly got 4+)
I did not rejoice :-P. There may have been many excellent and needed reasons for the change, but I still don't like change!
Lance, do you know how you are doing well at MS? You still have a job. I remember congratulating a colleague on an award he had just won, it was quite a significant achievement. He blew it off like it was nothing. He said to me being above average is why you have a job here in the first place. I stopped and thought about his comment for a moment. While I have to admit that comment did make me feel kind of special, he was right MS rarely hires duds.
I've read about that. It basically meant that employees had to treat each other like enemies instead of colleagues, and who knows what kind of damage it did to the Microsoft products of that time.
Thanks for the video. It was very interesting to see the perspective of the former employee on these matters. Looking forward to watch and hear more.
This is a great episode. So glad I found your channel.
Would love to hear your thoughts on Windows Neptune and Odyssey before they merged into Whistler/XP! In the public we've only seen one leaked build of Windows Neptune and only heard rumors about Odyssey, but I'd love to learn more about both.
^^
Dang this is a good one
Nice one!
Yes! I tried that Neptune build at some point on real hardware and I really really liked it, I'd love to hear more!
I don’t mind activation, but as a vintage computer collector, I wonder what the future holds. It would be nice if Microsoft would release installation media for there older OSs that included all updates. If sold for a reasonable price I think there would be a limited market.
Just a few weeks ago there were news, that the Win XP activation had been cracked. Maybe this helps the retro community.
Plenty of 'site license' copies are available, and are far more flexible wrt activation.
@@4lpha0nelike... In a different way? Since Windows 95 people had fake/pirated Windows. XP was also heavily pirated. I don't get your "they cracked the XP activation system". Like... When was it not cracked?
MS still is hosting the updates, there is a project called LegacyUpdate that reroutes them to non-SSL capable installs and works great, also fixes the endless searching for updates loop. There may be some workaround for win9x as well
Those previous ways were workarounds, the crack he is talking about completely decrypted the activation process. Meaning not even Microsoft would be able to tell the difference
Loved watching this, thank you for sharing your insight and experiences!
Wow. I really have wondered about this for a long time. Thanks for making a video about it.
"Someone I know" used to be really big into cracking various software, including activation and WGA. While I agree with you, certainly as a developer myself, that people who can afford software should pay for it - I also think the world would be a much better place if everyone who wanted to try to make things had access to whatever tools they need. Particularly software, as this doesn't pose any loss to the producer, if the consumer could never afford it anyway. At best, it's free advertising for the producer. At worst, a rich guy gets to do a little charity work. Personally, I went back decades later and paid for a lot of the software that I pirated as a kid. I think that's pretty common, according to studies. If I didn't pirate those things, I likely never would have escaped ASD level 3 and would probably still be living with a highly abusive parent. Now that I'm moderately functional, I try to pay it back and pay it forward.
So if the World was perfect and these things wouldn't get abused, the World would be lerfect, interesting view on the World, sadly it's obviously not perfect. Also if cracks weren't so broken or would get the same updates easily I wouldn't have bought these products afterwards.
I think Windows has addressed this issue (if you can then you should pay for it). While still letting poor high school me use it. Last time I installed windows. I remember it working for free. I just couldn't "personalize" it, until I paid for it. That sounds like such a lil' trivial thing. But it's not. Yet all of the "power" was still available, it just didn't "feel" right. I used the "free" type for a week or two until my key came.
In my case that's why I decided to try open source and Linux, as a kid I pirated EVERYTHING you can imagine. Music? Ares, LimeWire and some websites. Games? Halo, Sims 2, The Elder Scrolls, Diablo. Software? Everything about Adobe and Microsoft office.
But when I entered college I realized that the music and games I like needs support for being so niche, and there's open source software that can do what I need like Krita+Gimp+G'mic. I start getting tired to pirated Adobe (I can't pay Adobe license for 2 programs, it's like it's meant to business, not to normal users) so I'm looking how much I can survive with open source and Linux on college before I'm pushed to pirated
Wow, I didn't realize that developing software was free! I should have known though, since no software dev has ever gone bankrupt.
Easy to say when you are taking someone else's stuff. Less so when someone is helping themselves to the fruits of YOUR labor.
The constant reactivation for hardware changes was the most frustrating part of wpa for me. It still would be I'm sure, if I didn't have an MSDN aka Visual Studio subscription these days.
There is a limit to how many keys MSDN issues and even the MAKs have a set limit. I personally respect to at least a minumum the VS EULA and limit the keys' usage to test rigs and VMs, with my daily driver desktop running a key that was originally retail Windows 7 Ultimate.
Dave you're doing a great job of trying to explain very complicated topics in plain English and I appreciate that, I would actually like to see more information on system tools I really liked your video about the task manager I always struggle with understanding what the blue screen of death is telling me and what the event viewer is trying to tell me and I would like to try and improve my understanding of both of those areas
The multiple levels of protection for *driving* and the end of the Patton discussion both got me pretty good 😁
Can you talk about DirectX and it’s history of development?
Listen, I'm gonna level with you @xuzeliu ... after watching some of Dave's videos, i actually tried to seek any retired or even active DirectX team members with youtube channels
I didn't find any, at least not in the time I tried, im sure *someone* is out there
In a nutshell Director of DixectX states OpenGL is a better product and gets sacked.
Even the devs weren't allowed to know how all of DX worked. It was black-box code, split across several teams to assure that nobody could actually crack the whole API and write a wrapper for Linux or Mac.
That's why it was such a cumbersome piece of garbage.
Vulcan is better anyways lol
12:25 that part really got me, very good haha
Ha! Hope this wasn't too over the top, just kind of made it up as I went :-)
@@DavesGarage It was perfect! I think it is always good and fun on a video to joke a bit about the topic :)
@@DavesGarage He's talking about S-E-X in front of the C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N!
Sex Cauldron?! I thought they closed that place down!
Linux users don't need this advice. They never leave their room.
Neither do Mac users, they use each other's backdoor, raw.
@@AllahDoesNotExist I use Windows on my desktop, Linux on my servers and mac OS on my ASUS laptop thanks to OpenCore. What does that say about me? 🤔
Why did it take me so long to find your channel! Fantastic
Everything story I hear in Dave's Garage not only makes me nestalgic, but teaches me more than I expected
This was fascinating! Love hearing all of the thought and engineering that goes into each topic. I'd love to hear about the origins of XP and your opinions about its success and sticking power.
Really enjoy these inside stories from early software development at MS. In a way you give software like task manager, product activation etc. a face and remind us that someone actually sat down and coded these.
I don't have any suggestions of the top of my head, but I'll let you know. Looking forward to your next video!
Thanks for the kind words!
You, my friend, are an inspiration to all programmers. Please keep teaching us about everything and anything that you want. I think we all feel smart by having an interesting "conversation" with someone who knows what he's talking about.
Dave you are the only youtuber i let run to the end of the video. love these videos :)
Never thought I would enjoy Dave's videos so much ! Haven't used windows myself for ages now but these videos are really interesting ! Keep it up !
Para de puxar o saco, cara!
I wish there were licenses for ‘curious teenagers without money’. I built Frankenstein computers with parts acquired from friends and families old PCs and was lucky enough to have found a copy of a corporate XP license. Without it, there would have been no way to for me to afford the keys I needed.
Modern activation is pretty forgiving. I suppose there's also MSDNAA/Dreamspark/Azure for Education/whatever the hell they're calling it these days, although those licenses may technically be "upgrade" licenses
With something like gvg mall you can get a full featured legit legal windows 10 pro key for like 15-20 bucks. Hardly a big deal even for an aspiring builder.
I have a corporate copy of XP I got from a teacher in my IT class. It doesn't have activation at all.
I remeber being a beta tester for Windows XP, and then got a full retail version as a thank you for submitting so many bugs back to Microsoft (I think I reported well over 500 bugs over the entire beta testing). I remember the jump from running Win 95 to XP and having to get new hardware as I was running the beta releases on an AMD K5 with 128MB RAM. Then someone gave me a pirate copy of Win XP corporate which didn't need activation on the day of XP being released. I never used the pirate copy as my everday system, but used it for further bug testing and writing software and drivers.
How have I never found your channel before now 0.0 As a computer enthusiast I tend to replace all the parts in my computer very frequently so it was great to hear that you struggled with the whole ship of Theseus paradox. To me the motherboard and power supply are the two things that really represent the soul of the computer. If I am replacing both it means it is time for a new key. And lets face it between the upgrades that windows has given out over the years (win7 to 8 for a pittance and 8 to 10 for free and 10 to 11 for free I feel I have my moneys worth.
I love hearing the design decisions, and thought process from a seasoned developer.
To hear Dave discuss the thinking and planning behind Windows evolution makes me appreciate the approach of proprietary thinking a little better. I myself prefer Linux / FOSS as a software model, but the perspective and thought behind Windows from his perspective does open my eyes a little. I am subbed to hear more.
OMG --- The Friendly Giant! I watched that first run....Love these Dave.
Man, this is the most valuable content on youtube.
This video reminded me of something I would really like to know more about: the history of the Windows Registry. What triggered its development, what was its intended scope of use, what were hurdles in its development, and what do the developers (former and/or current) think of what it turned into?
One thing about the Windows registry is that it contains HIDDEN keys, that the user cannot see using Regedt32
Windows activation information is hidden there.
I only remember that it was (among other things) meant to replace all those *.ini files...
@@ReadersOfTheApocalypse it couldn't necessarily do that though, depending on what's inside it.
There's actually a lot of information on this written by one of the other old school Windows devs, Raymond Chen. He runs a blog called "The Old New Thing".
IIRC, it started as a place to register COM objects - hence the name "registry".
It was expanded to cover configuration data after they started running in to many situations where the all-settings-in-one-file or in-some-files was becoming too restricting.
They needed something that could be read from and written to by multiple people simultaneously, without corruption.
They needed something that could support localization. (They considered the INI format locked, because suddenly throwing Unicode data into something that was previously always ANSI/ASCII would break a lot of programs that did their own parsing of INI files.)
They needed something centralized.
They needed something securable at a higher granularity than just file permissions. (i.e., if you have access to change one setting in an INI file, you have access to change everything in the INI file. They wanted more granular permissions, so programs and the system could secure specific keys from each other, if required.)
You just improved my everyday programming mentality. Cheers, the way you talk is inspiring. Love these discussions.
Very interesting. As an enthusiasts, the newer forms of activation can be a pain when swapping hardware during upgrade season 😅 I miss the old days with keys.
Why did it take me this long to find your channel? Great content!
Such an interesting video and perspective! I’m in the process of putting together an offline Windows XP rig and experienced telephone activation for the first time while I was setting it up. I was honestly in awe that such a robust system existed and is still functional today. Really cool to hear your breakdown and design philosophy behind it.
I switched to Linux when Windows 10 was released, but I love to hear about older Windows versions and the work that was put into them.
Windows10 is horrible.
Windows 98 was my favorite :)
I am still using it on an older PC.
I'd still use it on newer ones if I had the drivers :p
@@cyberp0et Win2k was my favorite. Rock solid, Built on NT, and light weight.
Install a virtual win2k machine on your win 10. You'll wish microsoft had never gone to XP.
@@hicknopunk No thanks. VirtualBox works just as well on Linux. With (potentially) a lot less overhead.
@@svenkarlsen2702 how does it alter the goodness that is win2k? The os takes less than 60 megs of ram on a full boot.
Looks like my comment got swatted down. Someone was able to break the encryption after 21 years. That’s quite a good run, sir!
That Simpsons cutaway got me...a genuine laugh out loud. Nice!
Would love to hear more about the code review, branch and merge process used in the older days.
What where your dev machines like.
Also some crunch time story’s
Also the thinking behind service packs and how they worked.
Good thinking! Code reviews definitely warrant their own episode, I'll make a note of it!
@@DavesGarage +1 for Ben's idea on all the various code review and "buddy build" tools that lived in various teams.
The older days:
What is this "code review, branch and merge process" you're talking about?
Yes, I always wondered about the specs of the dev machines on each era. Especially XP since it can be made to run in almost everything :)
I remember being astounded that Windows wasn't seeking re-activation despite some heavy hardware changes I made... Now I know why. I owe you almost 20 years of thanks! 😊👍
Thanks? Because they let you continue using something that you had paid them for?
Why?
@@tasmedic if he would not have programmed it someone who were worse could have
Worked with Microsoft products (OS and Apps) since Dos 3.0 and Word 2.0 (as well as WordPerfect 5.0, PFS First Choice, Lotus 1-2-3, VP Planner - oops, gotta duck and avoid that Tetradactyl flying overhead...). Thank you for the trip down memory lane. It is great to pop the hood and see what the software engineers working on products were thinking at the time - one of the most valuable channels on 'the tube'!
We would always just take a snap shot of the system before running an activation to see exactly how it worked. Run a script to compare the changes and jump that area.
Thanks Dave. I always knew there was a real person that could speak English and not sound like a digital voice. Now I have a better glimpse of how it works.
i thought that the 'defense in depth' lecture you give to your sons was going somewhere slightly different!
Yeah, no. It's not a good idea to double up with the Profilactics.
Latex against latex can tear. Don't do it, kids.
@@klaxoncow I laughed. Work up my toddler.
Really good parenting tip. Took notice to use with my son in about 10 years lol
Thx Dave, an Engineer with a sense of humour!! LOL I subscribed.
Great video. Appreciate your honesty and openness. As to Ike & George, we agree on Patton but I'm a Truman fan. Best.
Love your war stories.
In Australia, we have what's called Ned Kelly's axe. It's had three new axe heads and five new handles, but it's still Ned Kelly's axe.
Cool, I've never heard the axe version before!
Over here, there's the old tale of the gentleman selling George Washington's axe. Approximately the same punch line... :)
Dave's daughter's boyfriend: - Why do you want me to put on 2 condoms?
- It's a long story...
Shocked I didn't find this channel before. The subtle jokes and references make me laugh real good 😅
Very interesting. I remember when PC Week did an article on this. They were trying to show that they could make it lock the system, even when the key was valid.
When I started at my new job, I got a complete book of enterprise Microsoft codes; I had to activate them all over the phone with the support. It was the biggest pain in the ass.
Was that SA (Software Assurance) benefits activation?
Back in the good ole days, I worked in IT asset management. We purchased 1500 licenses for Windows 3.1 (or upgrades to 3.1, can't remember). So each individual license was its own piece of paper and came in a folder. This ended up being something like 6 boxes of paper we had to keep. I had hoped it could've been two pieces of paper, one for 1000, and one for 500.
omg the chuckle after 13:05 as you think about what you made happen to someone's computer if they try to do that
Piracy was rampant during all of this. I did support at the time and you were definitely not stopping the mom and pop stores. It really was pointless.
I think I've called the product activation center more times than I've called my Mom
And *this* is why we run the warez version.