You have no hydraulic seperation for a system with ufh and radiators on low temperature controls. This will cause underflow in the ufh circuits when in operation. The llh needs to be refitted and a separate pump used for the radiator circuit from the distribution header. This is standard Vailant and Viessmann design. Hydraulic seperation has rules for when and when not it is required. This design you have done is subject of many of my design videos and causes regular winter call outs for me. It's very easy to rectify the issue. Ask Vilizar at Vailant to do a system schematic for you. This is as much of a hydronic no no as ccts at the ufh manifold.
Well, we do disagree here. I’d rather have CCT on manifolds than LLH here. If I have made a mistake I want to learn from it and go back and rectify. I appreciate your experience but I would like to test it myself and go back if needed. I have seen the discussion with you and Adam re CCT and I am aware of it. I will report back
@@UrbanPlumbers it can all be proved mathematically with what you have learned from the heat geek course. I worry about credible sources giving out ideas with mistaken design principles. This leaves installers and customers vulnerable to system issues. Happy to discuss the issues with you.
What is truly amazing is that Urban Plumbers took on such a massive job and did not force the client to buy a whole bunch of new equipment to solve their issue. Instead, he deleted inefficient kit, redesigned and rewired the system and invested only time. Syzmon is the highest caliber of professional! Well done!
I can't wait to see the update and note from Andrew. It was a bit of an experiment and lessons might have to be learnt. It's good to see people's working out though!
Well, i have to agree that this is amazing and a great show of high class specialist. However if they had double what they needed, i would just leave those redundant parts as a spare. Such heater is not worth a couple pennies... I have a similar sityation at my home - exchanging coal heating for gas. And i still want to leave old stove just in case, work on it a little and have an emergency heat source able to use coal, wood, chips, pellet... Hard times are coming and relying only on one source of energy is very risky.
I would happily endorse your ability as a real engineer unlike many of the so-called gas/boiler fitters that like to think they are! Well done on a) taking on the job, b) being tenacious and knowledgeable enough to fault find it and c) resolve it without resorting to a ‘rip it out and start from scratch’ attitude 👍
Hopefully young apprentices are watching this channel and seeing a great example of what professionalism and skill looks like. It will certainly help them in their future careers.
I love your channel. Your style of presenting is really natural as opposed to some on UA-cam. Your knowledge is excellent and your problem solving skills really creative. Well done.
You are a heating genius that can simplify overcomplex systems and remove all that's not needed leaving the heating system more efficient and the customer very pleased.
It seems you have to be as much an electrician, plumber and boiler engineer - all at the same time. This is a huge, complex job that could completely fry your brain. Hat's off to you.
Brilliant video as always. As a heating engineer myself, I can appreciate what an amazing standard you work to 👌 Keep up the good work & keep the awesome vids coming 👍
We can summarize that in order to save a fortune on heating costs we should call a competent and knowledgeable plumber :D very good video I quite enjoyed it, thanks for sharing!
Another great video of your work.. your depth of knowledge is incredible. I don't know how you learned all that but your customers are lucky to have such a top professional on the job.
Your work ethic is fantastic, as others have commented. Fine tuning and efficiency - simplifying and optimising powered by thought, not excess and compensation powered by laziness and incompetence. Re the softened water thing - base exchange softened water does indeed dissolve scale deposits, you're right. However when this occurs on a large build-up, sludge can form in lower-flowing areas, or restrictions, such as strainers, filters, and aerator fittings at the end of taps, so something to look out for in a situation like this. It can also dissolve 'cleanly' over time though and eventually pass through to drain without much issue.
No idea or understanding , but it is amazing to see someone so professional and easy to understand, that he knows what he is doing and also, takes some risks to test himself. Thanks for your knowledge!
really excellent video! Everything explained so a layperson like me can understand, delivered with humility and a sense of humour too! You sound like a true professional, not some blagging shyster (can you tell I've had a couple of those in the past?) Your customers are lucky to have you. Subscribed, and please keep the videos coming!
You're amazing, managing to sort out all that wiring. I was impressed with the condition of the hot water cylinders, no limescale at all. After seeing that I went and bought an industrial water softener to fill my 4,000 litre buffer tank. I'm planning on linking an annexe and have some insulated underground water pipe, it's 32mm so I'm going to thread 16mm through to get my flow rate correct. It's only a 10 mtr. run so I think it should be fine. I'm leaving the hot water on Economy 7 as long as my contract allows. I find with a properly insulated large tank there's very little loss over the day. Some people complain about heat loss from a store but what I've found is you have to make sure there's no parasitic convection going on. Another thing I don't think people realise is that their heat store isn't fully up to temperature to start with. I can see heat stores will be very useful when smart grid pricing comes along. John.
Just found your channel and really impressed. You may still have a bit to learn but could be the time to ease of on the tools and make your fortune in consulting. ie How to do a proper job or correct what 'heating engineers ' have botched up and over charged on. ( only applies to some, you know who you are ) Your knowledge for your age far exceeds what an average guy knows and your videos and knowledge is truly inspirational. Well done and keep the videos coming.
Big respect, I'm a techie not a plumber but appreciated the erasure of stuff that wasn't adding anything valuable to the system. Goes to show that there's plenty of scope to reduce energy usage and waste. Please keep making more of these, and hope you aren't kidnapped :)
You are doing an excellent explanation with the limited time and complex installation that you have. You did not tell us if the boilers were set up to fire properly to maintain the needed space and hot water temp. You stated that energy consumption was high with not enough heating but you did not share your findings as to what caused the situation of the high energy bill. Good luck.
There is more to it than I was able to show on the video. They had 600L of stored water and never enough hot water - 2nd circulation was constantly depleting the cylinders with 2 x boilers constantly trying to recharge them! This should make a massive improvement to energy consumption
@@UrbanPlumbers crazy!! I suppose that’s why the secondary return should be lagged so well to stop that. At the new gas price that’s over 2.5k per year in saving!!
I'm a Viessmann guy and have often used the boiler pump to handle full radiator loads but only when the pump is operating within its curve. The DHW 3 way valve is handled internally in the boiler so there is no question of having the wrong temp going to the tank. I can understand why the LLH is in place and if the DHW was sent to the tank bypassing the LLH, you would still have the benefit of the LLH for flow control through the secondary circuits.
I will say the Vailant/Gloworm ebus stuff is quite handy, we had a new glowworm compact fitted at the place we are renting and no controller or even a room thermostat was fitted (the previous boiler being an ultracom with the built in programmer). Absolute pain to turn the heating on/off so ended up getting a ClimaPro2. Installed in seconds using the plug under the boiler and so much easier than having to take the front cover off to wire something internally.
I have always thought commercial heating engineers have been lured by over complexity for technical one-upmanship. It appears that the clients budget usually determines the system size. In a house of this size I would expect a second boiler to be in position just to prevent inconvenient heat failure. I am amazed that all those zones work on one built-in boiler pump.
It will succeed 👍. Have no doubt about it. I hate low loss headers when they are not needed. If in doubt I would put small buffer with buffer sensors wired to vr 71 instead.
Amazing work, loved how you have worked everything out first and problem-solve - wish you are closer to us in (Bath) as it is a pain to find a good plumber to install a new boiler for us at the moment!
Very good video, for 30 years I fit weather compensator, the old honeywell AQ6000 was a fab weather compensator controller with optimum on and optimum off. If HMG wanted to improve efficiency they could get rid of bimetallic stats, thermistors are so much better.
Base exchange water softeners (salt) both stop the buildup of limescale and strip the existing scale from the pipework and cylinders. It takes months or years depending on the level of existing buildup but what you had here is no surprise.
I love their choice in the heating system, I love how you have rationalised it all (BRILLIANT) and I really love their choice in paint 🤭 Farrow & Ball, they are superior producers of paint with a wonderful palette of rich colours (no I don't work for them). Such an daunting job you have taken on and you achieved it 😎
Guarantee the original installer looked at the house and thought, they have plenty of money, then over-specified the original system massively to make it a much bigger job than actually needed. You could run the place as a hotel on that original system, 50kW, total overkill.
Not sure I agree with removing the LLH for such a system, however, real world testing is the best way to find out if it works, we can have all the theories we want and all the mathematical equations and all the manufacturers test rigs in test conditions, but these do not prove real working of an actual system, it’s great that you have a client willing to undergo a trial for a different approach and it will be very interesting to see how it turns out, I look forward to the follow up video with interest, it could prove a lot of theories wrong
yes, it would be nice to keep it in, but that would require re-piping of hot water and radiator circuits so that the take-off for DHW is before the header, additional 2 pumps - one for CH rads and one for DHW plus replacement of mixing valves on 2 manifolds. It may still happen. We will know soon.
You didn't explain what you had to do to that wiring centre, but my head had exploded already by then! Why do installers make things so unnecessarily complicated? It's a lovely big house, but I've worked in 50 room hotels with simpler control systems! Well done for improving things so much for the client with minimum outlay.
I always take my time to write numbers and rooms on the corresponding wires, plus I write it on a piece of paper and leave that on the boiler/heat pump. Sometimes it feels useless but seeing how much time it takes you figuring out, I’ll continue doing it lol
Very nice job. Sadly too many surveyors only look at what you already have and quote rather than asking what you need and would like to achieve and then quote. Sadly too many unskilled people don’t know how to work out what’s required so so just do a like for like swap. There’s plenty of big well named companies fitting systems like it’s the 90’s! And sadly customers love it because the rads get hot.
I'm always fascinated by your videos and despite what is being said by some, your knowledge way surpasses any plumber I have ever met! I'm particularly interested to note that a 24 kw boiler can provide all the heat on a 4000 square foot property given that my 1800 ish property with 11 trv'd rads and 1 hw tank struggles on a 18kw boiler even when 4 rads are isolated and the respective room doors are closed. The only suggestion I have had from a plumber is to increase the boiler to 24 kw. BTW, double glazed and copious roof insulation.
you probably only need 10kW then. Google 'heat geek map' and hire a heat geek elite member - bigger chance to get someone who will be actually able to help you
The overall complexity of this system and the various parts raises a question in my mind. Hotels don’t create these inter related and inter dependent systems. They work much more on a room by room basis for all variable services. Why wouldn’t something similar work better and cost less here as well, because large parts of that house aren’t used every day. Individual room or area type systems can be activated when in use and only public areas on permanently. Also the thermal envelope of this property can’t be very efficient either based on your energy consumption stats.
maybe you could see if vaillant will sponsor an Arotherm addition for the property next year! ;) would have been interesting to know more about the wiring, though I appreciate the brain frying nature of boiler wiring!
I wish you were closer to Shropshire. I'd happily have you review and upgrade my system. If you have any recommendations for like minded installers, please share. Keep up the great work...
Just taking that cylinder out is going to save a lot of money. Issue I find in installations with llh is how the circuits are run, dhw should be before the header/heat ex on priority so then all heating circuits can freely modulate
regarding hot water circulation - mine is integrated into my home automation which includes motion sensors in every room. I have an event that spins the recirc for one minute if motion is detected in a bedroom or kitchen and not spin it again for another 15min. Got a 250L unvented serving family of 4 no bother at all
The owner of the property, please post if you now have a full working 300 litre hot water tank providing all your needs or if you still experience an issue of lack enough hot water
Well done for taking on the challenge!!! Could you not have salvaged the second water cylinder with an endoscope camera? Remove the heating element and stick the scope in. Less time and effort consuming. Still many thanks for the video
Fantastic and informative video. Ain’t the main reason for a llh where there is multiple pumps with ufh? To stop them influencing flow rates outside of the international pump flow? Hydronic separation, Not just for when you have two boilers together.
Yes that is correct. However even with LLH in you still have a system pump influencing 2 manifolds pumps. I had a 2 hour discussion on how to address this with Andrew Millward today. I would just use CCT on manifolds as per Adam from HeatvGeek but Andrew is set against it and says it is as bad as no separation. I think I may put LLH back but without the system pump and just add 1 pump for rad circuit. I think this was a consensus we reached with Andrew. There is going to be a follow up on this soon. Another solution would be to use one boiler for rads and cylinders and separate the system with 2nd boiler just doing UFH on low temp. Unfortunately all those option add a cost to the install
@@UrbanPlumbers Andrew's solution for my Vaillant install would probably work well, using electronic mixing valves or mixing groups controlled by the VR71 to supply WC controlled heat curves to each emitter type ua-cam.com/video/7X5TR_e0JJM/v-deo.html
It's a fantastic example that complexity does not automatically give you better efficiency, control or cost savings - and it can do the very opposite. I wonder how much all those extra thermostats (and the perceived extra control) actually saves them when compared to a simpler well balanced system. My guess is not as much as they think. And also why use underfloor heating manifolds with cheaper actuators when you can make you own out of hundreds of tees and individual zone valves... The labour time alone on all that soldering....
Does llh mean the boiler uses more gas as it doesn’t modulate as well? I have a llh on my 637 (set to 20kw) and it uses a lot of gas. I have 3 zones with no ufh and thinking of removing the llh to see how this can make a difference.
At the cylinder dual stat, instead of taking the control stat to overheat stat link out and just keeping the overheat stat, could you have just set the old control higher to say 70C so the NTC sensor control would then be in control? Thinking that would give an additional failsafe?
But of a misleading clickbait, no normal family lives like this. The owner was oversold heating cap acity and equipment. I am impressed with both your enthusiasm and knowledge as I am a retired Marine Engineer and used to large systems. Hopefully the owner gave you that bottle of champagne in appreciation.
You have no hydraulic seperation for a system with ufh and radiators on low temperature controls. This will cause underflow in the ufh circuits when in operation. The llh needs to be refitted and a separate pump used for the radiator circuit from the distribution header. This is standard Vailant and Viessmann design.
Hydraulic seperation has rules for when and when not it is required.
This design you have done is subject of many of my design videos and causes regular winter call outs for me.
It's very easy to rectify the issue. Ask Vilizar at Vailant to do a system schematic for you.
This is as much of a hydronic no no as ccts at the ufh manifold.
Well, we do disagree here. I’d rather have CCT on manifolds than LLH here.
If I have made a mistake I want to learn from it and go back and rectify.
I appreciate your experience but I would like to test it myself and go back if needed.
I have seen the discussion with you and Adam re CCT and I am aware of it.
I will report back
@@UrbanPlumbers it can all be proved mathematically with what you have learned from the heat geek course. I worry about credible sources giving out ideas with mistaken design principles. This leaves installers and customers vulnerable to system issues. Happy to discuss the issues with you.
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 sure! I would love to meet and have it all explained!
How do I find your number mate?
@@UrbanPlumbers I message you on messenger before
What is truly amazing is that Urban Plumbers took on such a massive job and did not force the client to buy a whole bunch of new equipment to solve their issue. Instead, he deleted inefficient kit, redesigned and rewired the system and invested only time.
Syzmon is the highest caliber of professional! Well done!
I can't wait to see the update and note from Andrew.
It was a bit of an experiment and lessons might have to be learnt.
It's good to see people's working out though!
Well, i have to agree that this is amazing and a great show of high class specialist. However if they had double what they needed, i would just leave those redundant parts as a spare. Such heater is not worth a couple pennies... I have a similar sityation at my home - exchanging coal heating for gas. And i still want to leave old stove just in case, work on it a little and have an emergency heat source able to use coal, wood, chips, pellet... Hard times are coming and relying only on one source of energy is very risky.
Breath of fresh air, so tiring seeing trades just scrap perfectly serviceable equipment, incredibly wasteful.
Never met a plumber/ heating guy with half the knowledge, and ability of this guy, unreal 👍
Finally a heating plumber who puts into his job more thought than I put into my hobbies.
raw talent and whats even better is you do really go above and beyond to try to make your customers systems as efficient as possible , well done Simon
Wow, what a difference. Plumbing and heating genius. As a DIY'er i'm in complete awe :)
As a plumber myself I am also in awe. A credit to the profession.
With these levels of competency and professionalism you should be running the entire country. Absolutely fantastic Mr Urban
naaah - the current lot are doing great, aren't they? 😄
I would happily endorse your ability as a real engineer unlike many of the so-called gas/boiler fitters that like to think they are! Well done on a) taking on the job, b) being tenacious and knowledgeable enough to fault find it and c) resolve it without resorting to a ‘rip it out and start from scratch’ attitude 👍
@James Clerk Maxwell I have a Blue Peter badge 🤪
@@Umski this is by far the most magnificent comeback I've ever seen on the internet, very well played!
Hopefully young apprentices are watching this channel and seeing a great example of what professionalism and skill looks like. It will certainly help them in their future careers.
I love your channel. Your style of presenting is really natural as opposed to some on UA-cam. Your knowledge is excellent and your problem solving skills really creative. Well done.
You are a heating genius that can simplify overcomplex systems and remove all that's not needed leaving the heating system more efficient and the customer very pleased.
It seems you have to be as much an electrician, plumber and boiler engineer - all at the same time. This is a huge, complex job that could completely fry your brain. Hat's off to you.
I have not a clue but am fascinated by the skill of Mr Urban and his unique approach to home heating that really effects us now.
Brilliant video as always. As a heating engineer myself, I can appreciate what an amazing standard you work to 👌
Keep up the good work & keep the awesome vids coming 👍
Love to see the original plumbers face who obviously thinks he’s the bees knees over designing such a complex system. Awesome job!
We can summarize that in order to save a fortune on heating costs we should call a competent and knowledgeable plumber :D very good video I quite enjoyed it, thanks for sharing!
Another great video of your work.. your depth of knowledge is incredible. I don't know how you learned all that but your customers are lucky to have such a top professional on the job.
He's done the heat geek training course, best resource in the country
Quick question, is there a follow up video to this?
You are a master of your craft and I’m addicted to watching vids now about plumbing and heating…😂😂
👍
Your work ethic is fantastic, as others have commented. Fine tuning and efficiency - simplifying and optimising powered by thought, not excess and compensation powered by laziness and incompetence.
Re the softened water thing - base exchange softened water does indeed dissolve scale deposits, you're right. However when this occurs on a large build-up, sludge can form in lower-flowing areas, or restrictions, such as strainers, filters, and aerator fittings at the end of taps, so something to look out for in a situation like this. It can also dissolve 'cleanly' over time though and eventually pass through to drain without much issue.
Your knowledge is incredible. You were certainly born to do this job!
Is there a follow-up video?
You are an artist and this heating system is a work of art
They hired you for a reason. Tons of houses out there like this. Keep up the good work
Thanks 👍
And to think I had trouble wiring a Y plan, with cylinder, and room stat, you my friend are on a higher plain, enjoy the content, well done Simone
Brilliant ! Mesmerising watching a true professional at work..
Chanced upon one of your videos, I was impressed by the content, presentation and professionalism - now a subscriber - excellent job my friend.
No idea or understanding , but it is amazing to see someone so professional and easy to understand, that he knows what he is doing and also, takes some risks to test himself. Thanks for your knowledge!
It’s mental how much knowledge you keep stored in your brain. Incredible
I watch these videos even though I have no idea what he's talking about. What a guy.
It's a rarity to find someone so knowledgeable.
Thanks for taking the time!!
I like that you tried without knowing it would work. Glad it did, smart work.
Wow, so many wiring centres, my mind is blown. What a superb job you've done there, most impressive!
really excellent video! Everything explained so a layperson like me can understand, delivered with humility and a sense of humour too!
You sound like a true professional, not some blagging shyster (can you tell I've had a couple of those in the past?)
Your customers are lucky to have you. Subscribed, and please keep the videos coming!
You're amazing, managing to sort out all that wiring. I was impressed with the condition of the hot water cylinders, no limescale at all. After seeing that I went and bought an industrial water softener to fill my 4,000 litre buffer tank. I'm planning on linking an annexe and have some insulated underground water pipe, it's 32mm so I'm going to thread 16mm through to get my flow rate correct. It's only a 10 mtr. run so I think it should be fine. I'm leaving the hot water on Economy 7 as long as my contract allows. I find with a properly insulated large tank there's
very little loss over the day. Some people complain about heat loss from a store but what I've found is you have to make sure there's no parasitic convection going on. Another thing I don't think people realise is that their heat store isn't fully up to temperature to start with. I can see heat stores will be very useful when smart grid pricing comes along. John.
I love wiring heating controls, looking to be working with you soon.
You pal are a very clever chap. Mind is blown again
Fantastic really enjoyed this as a gas engineer thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
Great explanation of the system and the changes you made.
Excellent video, don't think most electricians could have worked that out.
Just found your channel and really impressed. You may still have a bit to learn but could be the time to ease of on the tools and make your fortune in consulting. ie How to do a proper job or correct what 'heating engineers ' have botched up and over charged on. ( only applies to some, you know who you are ) Your knowledge for your age far exceeds what an average guy knows and your videos and knowledge is truly inspirational. Well done and keep the videos coming.
Big respect, I'm a techie not a plumber but appreciated the erasure of stuff that wasn't adding anything valuable to the system. Goes to show that there's plenty of scope to reduce energy usage and waste. Please keep making more of these, and hope you aren't kidnapped :)
You are doing an excellent explanation with the limited time and complex installation that you have. You did not tell us if the boilers were set up to fire properly to maintain the needed space and hot water temp. You stated that energy consumption was high with not enough heating but you did not share your findings as to what caused the situation of the high energy bill. Good luck.
Simon strikes again. As always covers every detail as it should have been in the first place.
Great video thanks and salient in late 2022 in Europe. Also good seeing you discussing theory and practice in the comments.
Lovely work mate. What a massive difference that will make to their gas bills this year!
There is more to it than I was able to show on the video. They had 600L of stored water and never enough hot water - 2nd circulation was constantly depleting the cylinders with 2 x boilers constantly trying to recharge them!
This should make a massive improvement to energy consumption
@@UrbanPlumbers crazy!! I suppose that’s why the secondary return should be lagged so well to stop that. At the new gas price that’s over 2.5k per year in saving!!
@@samposton9101 yes, you can easily cost you that much with insane 600L and 50kW of boilers cycling all day
@@UrbanPlumbers Reminds me of that mixing episode you did earlier in the year. Well done!
You should open that bottle of champagne to celebrate a job well done
I'm a Viessmann guy and have often used the boiler pump to handle full radiator loads but only when the pump is operating within its curve. The DHW 3 way valve is handled internally in the boiler so there is no question of having the wrong temp going to the tank. I can understand why the LLH is in place and if the DHW was sent to the tank bypassing the LLH, you would still have the benefit of the LLH for flow control through the secondary circuits.
I will say the Vailant/Gloworm ebus stuff is quite handy, we had a new glowworm compact fitted at the place we are renting and no controller or even a room thermostat was fitted (the previous boiler being an ultracom with the built in programmer). Absolute pain to turn the heating on/off so ended up getting a ClimaPro2. Installed in seconds using the plug under the boiler and so much easier than having to take the front cover off to wire something internally.
Well..Simon..you have nailed it... bravo and keep on going...greetings from Rotterdam ..thanks for sharing .
Knowledge and skill off the scale. 👏
I have always thought commercial heating engineers have been lured by over complexity for technical one-upmanship. It appears that the clients budget usually determines the system size. In a house of this size I would expect a second boiler to be in position just to prevent inconvenient heat failure. I am amazed that all those zones work on one built-in boiler pump.
Yes a softener will slowly remove existing scale build up in any water using system or appliance
I heard that before, but this is the first time I was actually able to confrim it!
It will succeed 👍. Have no doubt about it. I hate low loss headers when they are not needed. If in doubt I would put small buffer with buffer sensors wired to vr 71 instead.
Amazing work, loved how you have worked everything out first and problem-solve - wish you are closer to us in (Bath) as it is a pain to find a good plumber to install a new boiler for us at the moment!
Very good video, for 30 years I fit weather compensator, the old honeywell AQ6000 was a fab weather compensator controller with optimum on and optimum off. If HMG wanted to improve efficiency they could get rid of bimetallic stats, thermistors are so much better.
Base exchange water softeners (salt) both stop the buildup of limescale and strip the existing scale from the pipework and cylinders. It takes months or years depending on the level of existing buildup but what you had here is no surprise.
I love their choice in the heating system, I love how you have rationalised it all (BRILLIANT) and I really love their choice in paint 🤭 Farrow & Ball, they are superior producers of paint with a wonderful palette of rich colours (no I don't work for them).
Such an daunting job you have taken on and you achieved it 😎
They're not short, they can even afford Andrex.
@@stephen3654 😄😆😅🤣I shop at LIDL and their bog roll chafes 😩 If only I could afford ALDI or ASDA bog paper, let alone Waitrose 😤😥
@@Lee.Willcox I use my hand and rinse it in the flush
Guarantee the original installer looked at the house and thought, they have plenty of money, then over-specified the original system massively to make it a much bigger job than actually needed. You could run the place as a hotel on that original system, 50kW, total overkill.
I've got a 29KwH boiled when realistically, I need half that. My house theoretically uses 10,000 KwH of gas a year
Of course. Sad but true, it's only about money for most plumbers.
I can't wait to see the results in a year!
I think I will go back in Jan 2023 once we have data for at least 2-3 colder months.
Well done. These are great to watch.
Knowledgeable at its best, very good video for who is in the game and not only. Thanks
I love it when a plan comes together 👍👍👍
Decent looking boilers those. They look similar to the range topping Ideal Vogue or System boilers inside and out. Not cheap!
Not sure I agree with removing the LLH for such a system, however, real world testing is the best way to find out if it works, we can have all the theories we want and all the mathematical equations and all the manufacturers test rigs in test conditions, but these do not prove real working of an actual system, it’s great that you have a client willing to undergo a trial for a different approach and it will be very interesting to see how it turns out, I look forward to the follow up video with interest, it could prove a lot of theories wrong
yes, it would be nice to keep it in, but that would require re-piping of hot water and radiator circuits so that the take-off for DHW is before the header, additional 2 pumps - one for CH rads and one for DHW plus replacement of mixing valves on 2 manifolds.
It may still happen. We will know soon.
You didn't explain what you had to do to that wiring centre, but my head had exploded already by then! Why do installers make things so unnecessarily complicated? It's a lovely big house, but I've worked in 50 room hotels with simpler control systems! Well done for improving things so much for the client with minimum outlay.
I always take my time to write numbers and rooms on the corresponding wires, plus I write it on a piece of paper and leave that on the boiler/heat pump. Sometimes it feels useless but seeing how much time it takes you figuring out, I’ll continue doing it lol
I take pictures of the notes and file them under the project in Evernote. I do that for all jobs Justin case I have to trouble shoot it in the future
Another well explained interesting video. Great stuff
Fascinating video, bit mind blowing for a domestic installation, imagine a hospital!
Very nice job. Sadly too many surveyors only look at what you already have and quote rather than asking what you need and would like to achieve and then quote. Sadly too many unskilled people don’t know how to work out what’s required so so just do a like for like swap.
There’s plenty of big well named companies fitting systems like it’s the 90’s! And sadly customers love it because the rads get hot.
Love these videos, such a clever guy.
Great work . Thanks for sharing all that valuable information .
I'm always fascinated by your videos and despite what is being said by some, your knowledge way surpasses any plumber I have ever met! I'm particularly interested to note that a 24 kw boiler can provide all the heat on a 4000 square foot property given that my 1800 ish property with 11 trv'd rads and 1 hw tank struggles on a 18kw boiler even when 4 rads are isolated and the respective room doors are closed. The only suggestion I have had from a plumber is to increase the boiler to 24 kw. BTW, double glazed and copious roof insulation.
you probably only need 10kW then. Google 'heat geek map' and hire a heat geek elite member - bigger chance to get someone who will be actually able to help you
@@UrbanPlumbers Many thanks and I will give that a go.
The overall complexity of this system and the various parts raises a question in my mind. Hotels don’t create these inter related and inter dependent systems. They work much more on a room by room basis for all variable services. Why wouldn’t something similar work better and cost less here as well, because large parts of that house aren’t used every day. Individual room or area type systems can be activated when in use and only public areas on permanently. Also the thermal envelope of this property can’t be very efficient either based on your energy consumption stats.
maybe you could see if vaillant will sponsor an Arotherm addition for the property next year! ;) would have been interesting to know more about the wiring, though I appreciate the brain frying nature of boiler wiring!
Brilliant work! Super interesting and well explained 🙌
I wish you were closer to Shropshire. I'd happily have you review and upgrade my system. If you have any recommendations for like minded installers, please share. Keep up the great work...
Awesome, you're clearly the Davie504 of the plumbing world....Epic.....Slap!
Slappers !
That’s amazing mate, good work 👍
You.are.a.good.plummer! Very good video. Thank you!
Just taking that cylinder out is going to save a lot of money.
Issue I find in installations with llh is how the circuits are run, dhw should be before the header/heat ex on priority so then all heating circuits can freely modulate
Exactly! Thank you.
Is running a 2000 LTR buffer tank with an UFH system a good idea in relation to efficiency ??
regarding hot water circulation - mine is integrated into my home automation which includes motion sensors in every room. I have an event that spins the recirc for one minute if motion is detected in a bedroom or kitchen and not spin it again for another 15min. Got a 250L unvented serving family of 4 no bother at all
yes, that is one way of correctly doing it
Brilliant the outdoor sensor is the weak point imho at least if your weather changes fast.
Another great video! Love to see these
Amazing work as always. Wish you were up in the North East so that I could get you to fix this little bungalow haha.
Run an extension cable from a lamppost to you're house. Make sure its a 13amp extension and its fully unwound.
Please share more steps. How do I connect to the lamppost please.
The owner of the property, please post if you now have a full working 300 litre hot water tank providing all your needs or if you still experience an issue of lack enough hot water
Now that's a real nice home
Well done for taking on the challenge!!!
Could you not have salvaged the second water cylinder with an endoscope camera? Remove the heating element and stick the scope in. Less time and effort consuming.
Still many thanks for the video
Brilliant job!!! 👍👍👍👍
Blimey this guy is a plumbing genius we’ll done
Fantastic and informative video. Ain’t the main reason for a llh where there is multiple pumps with ufh? To stop them influencing flow rates outside of the international pump flow? Hydronic separation, Not just for when you have two boilers together.
Yes that is correct. However even with LLH in you still have a system pump influencing 2 manifolds pumps.
I had a 2 hour discussion on how to address this with Andrew Millward today.
I would just use CCT on manifolds as per Adam from HeatvGeek but Andrew is set against it and says it is as bad as no separation.
I think I may put LLH back but without the system pump and just add 1 pump for rad circuit.
I think this was a consensus we reached with Andrew.
There is going to be a follow up on this soon.
Another solution would be to use one boiler for rads and cylinders and separate the system with 2nd boiler just doing UFH on low temp.
Unfortunately all those option add a cost to the install
@@UrbanPlumbers Andrew's solution for my Vaillant install would probably work well, using electronic mixing valves or mixing groups controlled by the VR71 to supply WC controlled heat curves to each emitter type ua-cam.com/video/7X5TR_e0JJM/v-deo.html
I need this dude to come and look at my house, if just i was not so far away xD
It's a fantastic example that complexity does not automatically give you better efficiency, control or cost savings - and it can do the very opposite.
I wonder how much all those extra thermostats (and the perceived extra control) actually saves them when compared to a simpler well balanced system. My guess is not as much as they think.
And also why use underfloor heating manifolds with cheaper actuators when you can make you own out of hundreds of tees and individual zone valves...
The labour time alone on all that soldering....
Awesome plumbing man. Would love to understand the electronics side to your level one day.
Heat a room is always expensive, thus heat the person/feet up with a pad. Latest and greatest: xiaomi bear pad graphene heating element. 170w
Does llh mean the boiler uses more gas as it doesn’t modulate as well? I have a llh on my 637 (set to 20kw) and it uses a lot of gas. I have 3 zones with no ufh and thinking of removing the llh to see how this can make a difference.
At the cylinder dual stat, instead of taking the control stat to overheat stat link out and just keeping the overheat stat, could you have just set the old control higher to say 70C so the NTC sensor control would then be in control? Thinking that would give an additional failsafe?
yes that is what I do. I don't need cylinder stat anymore, just over heat stat.
But of a misleading clickbait, no normal family lives like this. The owner was oversold heating cap acity and equipment. I am impressed with both your enthusiasm and knowledge as I am a retired Marine Engineer and used to large systems. Hopefully the owner gave you that bottle of champagne in appreciation.
come on - it UA-cam - it has to be a bit of a clickbait 😉 Thanks for the comment.