How Institutions Trap Spiritual Teachers
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- Опубліковано 24 кві 2023
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“No Costellos” made me laugh out loud. Hilarious!
The best drive by joke ever. Woulda killed in my town.
I almost choked on my dinner. Death by dharma talk.
Abbots would be greatly enhanced by having a nominated Costello, i think. Except here in Australia, where we did that, and it made things even worse. ;}P> (political joke, sorry not sorry)
Great talk. Institutions, religious and otherwise, often end up undermining the ends they are supposed to be promoting, and become vehicles for ego and one-up-man-ship.
Great talk. I helped run a small Zen center for a bit and we had a board, but it was mostly for scheduling purposes. It never occurred to us to write policy documents for anything. We also didn't have teachers per se. The purpose was just to have a place to sit and discuss various topics related to Buddhism and meditation. We also kept Zen ritual to a minimum.
This makes a lot of sense. I’d really like to hear the full story of how things went at the angel zen centre and why you left!
Aha! Since I was living there at ACZC and was witness to all you just explained here, I finally get it! Looking back, it was really you being very consistent about your feelings about setting up a “priest class” by ordaining. I recall asking you very specifically once about it and you basically gave the very same answer then. Thanks for never doing me the disservice of ordaining me! 😅
You're welcome!
Very relevant video since I am currently in the process of reading the book "Cutting through Spiritual Materialism" by Chögyam Trungpa, and noticing that throughout the book Trungpa keeps warning against the same type of personality cult that his followers not only created around him but he also kept playing along with all the way. Had the exact same experience when reading "The Second Ring of Power" by Carlos Castaneda last year, as a matter of fact.
I love your talks. The other day or week or whenever, i watched your talk on the DL and your thoughts and have done so much reading on all that and have really come to the same story of stuff you're talking about, minus the personal touch of having been on the subway at the time. Totally changedy perspective on him and the institution too. Wild stuff!
In regards to the Dalai Lama, the thing that makes the most sense is that an extremely popular leader with a demanding schedule like he no doubt had. He was probably meeting with dozens of leaders all over the world ever week. Running his organization that helped his people was not cheap. So fulfilling the duties of his vocation required meeting people and receiving money to help others. usually they have assistants who make their schedule and make the travel arrangements etc. People like that are so insanely busy they are literally just walking in to a room, visiting with people for a few hours and then flying to the next country. If he vetted and researched everyone he met and got money from he wouldn't even have time to go anywhere or do anything. That is a job in and of itself. I know you know all of this because you have travelled and made schedules to talk with people around the world. But, multiply that by a million and that is what I imagine it was like. It is akin to assuming a president who does fundraisers and all of that has any idea who all the people they met with and raise money for their campaign are. There is simply no way.
I’m grateful for the existence all religious institution including all the Buddhist ones because due to that people from all walks of life can find some solace. There are for and against in everything.
Great video! I’ll be making a contribution. TY for always saying it as it is & speaking the truth.
Let’s have a video (or videos) where you tell all those “other” stories…! (please, Please, PLEASE…)
Tank you for the schedule 🌊
I used to think that someday in order to be “authentic” I would need to receive a transmission or ordaining from you or a Kapleau in order to be lineage. I think the idea came from a Dogen movie where he was so serious about the direct lineage of the Buddhas teaching. I just sit alone on a Native Reservation.
You need a worker cooperative zen centre
Do you have any thoughts on Bankei Yōtaku? This attitude reminds me of some of what I've heard (which isn't much at this point) about how he regarded spiritual instations.
It IS simply amazing how much financial considerations influence choices in the real world…
Love the pic with Giorgio Tsoukalos ❤
When Chaucer wrote the Canterbury Tales (1387-1400) he ''ripped the church a new one'' with satire and bawdy references to sleazy nuns and priests and the higher up the ladder one went, ''the more of their behind you had to see.''(and kiss)
But good old Geoffrey describes a lay-priest and his son on the pilgrimage who have a humble home-built church to offer his family and their nearby worshipers a place to congregate. These men, we see through Chaucer's fine treatment of them, are the only ones in the tale who seem to be what they purport to be. They are humble, charitable, kind and helpful.
Once you add fine robes, gold scepters, fur lined soft leather gloves and large groups of believers, the distance from ''the way'' gets longer and harder to find.
I always had the impression that it's fairly easy to arrange an audience or photo-op with DL. He seems to endorse just about anyone who asks, which is really pretty typical of politicians. I worked in politics for awhile, and we had a steady stream of people who wanted favors or to do us a favor (give donations) including requesting photos shaking hands with our boss. I also saw, a couple meditation teachers get really controlled by a dominating student who set themselves up as the indispensible manager of their affairs and kept everyone else at bay.
Intriguing. Maybe I should arrange a meeting so I can get a photo for my next book!
Write Bob Thurman at Tibet House in NYC. Send him a copy of There is No God, and ask his opinion on some related topic--nothing to lose but some postage! I would guess there are local Tibetan teachers, too, who might be helpful. I think he must help a lot of Buddhist authors for I often see him quoted on the cover, etc. I think he probably wants to keep Tibet in the news.
@@HardcoreZen Maybe you'll run in to him at the whole foods on San Vicente
Spent 20 years studying (and experiencing) this … ALL ORGANIZATIONS AND SYSTEMS BECOME DYSFUNCTIONAL OVER TIME. No exceptions, sadly. Question though … semi related … you’ve said many times having a teacher is important, and yet it’s hard to find one outside of an organization, and you, yourself, don’t have formal students. What’s a dedicated practitioner to do?
I don't really know. I got lucky, I guess.
@@HardcoreZen We need a Soto equivalent of Meido Moore!
So this is authentic Zen, I like it
To me, it amounts to two concepts: horizontality and subsidiarity. If an institution has those it can go on and flourish, and rise again from its inevitable setbacks, it won't be perfect by any stretch but will have the means to self-correct; if not, it generally goes into ruin. Not sufficient conditions, but necessary. Zen being so distributed with some temples here and there and lots of small dojos just does the job. When a group wants to expand, Kannon help the members.
Btw, in the West we're having a reeeeal problem with sexual relationships and romances
I think it is very valuable to talk about this kind of things aloud so people get a chance to match their intuition with the real first hand experience of the situation. Thank you for sharing and not chickening out.
I enjoy reading Taisen Deshimaru roshi's book Sit, where he addresses stuff happening around him directly with hundreds of people in attendance. And he is very straight and honest about it.
Maybe that wouldn't work nowadays anymore as we are so sensitive to all kinds of psychological safety issues. I still prefer doing this stuff with a few dedicated practitioners who do not shit in their pants caused by one badly chosen word or a bad day at the office.
I had one or two mugs of coffee too much driving to Lammi so I am not so sure if my English is still English and what I am trying to say. Let's simplify it a bit: Good stuff! Interesting! Valuable! Much needed!
Dogen & The Lotus Sutra. Hmm.
Amazing.
I’m ordaining soon. In 2014, I received jukai. Realistically, I practiced within rinzai and soto since 2002. I did not even consider this path until a few years after jukai. Within my lineage, it takes time and money (the money part is downplayed). My lineage goes through Weitsman and Suzuki. Some of the institutionalism bothers me. However, other things are good. With large organizations, I agree - certain policies should be in place. One of the big issues that looms over things is the ego of individual. The other is the juggernaut of the institution like a battleship with powerful engines and a small rudder.
I found out the 13th Dalai Lama was really into drinking and girls... not so interested in practicing assiduously... so its good to be sceptical 😅
Had a similar experience with a community garden project I founded!
It's amazing how strong the drive for power and control is, and how it seeps in all over the place, in the most petty situations. Though, from what I've heard from many people, community gardens are famous for power struggles. It's so bizarre. My wife, who is more idealistic than I, thinks I am a curmudgeon because I am leery of joining most communal enterprises. Ironically, some of the best organizations are benevolent dictatorships, and some of the worst are (officially) completely egalitarian, because in reality that just means the loudest person with the most stamina and desire for power tends to dominate.
I just noticed the Chick tract. Those are always entertaining reads.
I found it at one of the airports I passed through last week while attending my aunt's funeral. But the place that makes the Chick tracts is about 3 miles from where I now live! I visited their shop one time. I had hoped they published a book that contained all, or at least a good sampling of, the tracts. But they don't. The best you can get is a kind of box that contains a selection of tracts. I may go back and buy one, though.
i like how you’re showing off your photo with giorgio tsoukalos here
Trying to be ironic about the photos of the DL with Asahara.
@@HardcoreZen But is it more problematic that you would endorse the ancient aliens guy or that Giorgio Tsoukalos would endorse Brad Warner🤔
@@HardcoreZen so uhhh, how “ironic” was, if it could be described in american dollars, your contribution to ancient astral research? 😆
@@jefffedorkiw1619 I had to pay $75 to get a photo with Giorgio! Actually my wife paid for it as a birthday present to me. I was about to pass because it was too expensive.
@@HardcoreZen yeah but based on that alone, now you can charge people $15 bucks each to have their picture with you! it’s an investment
your distrust of institutions is one of the things that keeps me coming back . The DL (who appears a lot more now in your videos than he should :D ) is part human part institution.... I doubt HH he can separate the inst. from self ... ?
for every institution there's a Ma Anand Sheela lurking somewhere. waiting to get claws into it
never forget Ma Anand Sheela
how about if you keep starting a multitude of small very small verry verry small 10-15 member sitting groups and moving on.....
Interesting question. I recall J Krishnamurti's warnings about computers becoming able to do everything humans do but better. I think the problem with AIs and institutions is exactly that they are *not* conscious. They are golems, zombies. And conscious people are compelled to act as cogs in the machinery.
Institutions have primitive instincts for survival and growth, but they have no capacity for seeking truth, beauty, justice and love. Where humans intend to set them up with such aims, those aims will be corrupted. Look at the charities that grow to the point where they become like corporations, manipulating the public to extract income from them, exploiting their workers and giving out bonuses to senior execs.
“Institution having a mind of it’s own…”
Sounds a little like what’s referred to in the occult world as an “Egregor…”
Thank you!
Oh wow, you have some dates in the US this time. :)
I guess this stuff isn't widely known (because people don't want to know, maybe?), but institutions develop their own priorities, & the first priority is survival of the institution. A friend put it like this - "unless you're careful, lots of local religious groups turn into model railroad clubs". Ie. people spend a lot of energy on getting & wearing the railroad hat, at the expense of their religious practice.
Eckhart Tolle makes the point somewhere that institutions can develop their own psychoses - like religious groups where individual people are loving & generous within their religious context, but the organization itself hates some other group. The individuals in the group are sufficiently invested in their belief system that they don't notice the discrepancy.
Then at some level there are the people who say, "Why? Why do we have to do this ritual like this? Why can't we bring our coffee into the zendo?" or whatever. So within Zen groups there's already friction between experienced leaders and newcomers who think the tradition is oppressive for various reasons.
Nice music video
There are some truths which we know without having to give it energy or thought. This is one of ‘em.
👍
I'm with you on the anti-institutionalism. However I don't get the impression that the DL was supporting SA but rather vice versa. If someone had donated a shitload of money to you, might you not have innocently posed for a photo with them/they under certain circumstances?
Probably not. This sort of thing has actually come up for me. I've never been offered millions of dollars. But I've had, for example, a guy imply very strongly that he would donate large amounts of money to ACZC from a fortune he'd made in software development if I ordained him as a priest. I refused that. I never told the Board of Directors at ACZC about it because I thought they might want me to ordain him. I have posed for photos with loads of people, but never for money.
@@HardcoreZen Well not done!
Surely someone is doing the job of vetting people for the Dalai Lama though. The whole organization can't be that naive.
I wonder if you could skip the legal requirements if instead of creating (without you knowing) an institution you would just call a group of friends gathering together to practice, share....zen.
Just look at the church for a great example, of this. If more people followed the gospels and less the teachings of the apostles the world would probably be a much better place.
john loori would boot out anyone who disagreed with him, if you want to keep control you have to do that
you got lucky imo with the aczc, centers are a failing paradigm now with the internet and other issues, you may not have intended to but you effectively "decoyed" them and got an education in the process
with that student you didn't want to ordain, it sounds like he wanted to be a military chaplain, perhaps? Chaplaincy requires some kind of lineage or sect-based ordination as.a priest, minister, monk, etc. as part of its certification process.
Hearing that someone wants to be a teacher is kind of a red flag for me. Unfortunately I think a lot of people that wants to become chaplains also fancy themselves future spiritual teachers. Reminds me of this one graduate from Naropa University's MDiv who I heard became a cult leader of some kind.
The hardcorezen website seems to be down
I can access it. hardcorezen.info
@@HardcoreZen so can I now - it seems to be working fine.
Hmm, so there you go, you finally gave transmission...😅
Priest ordination isn't dharma transmission.
Hmm, I thought they go together, since you were given transmission from Nishijima (who was a soto priest), you get both....
Lay transmissions are only Dharma transmissions.
Correct me if I'm wrong..
It’s hard to explain. Dharma transmission is it’s own thing. It’s not a priest ordination. It’s not really any sort of ordination. I was ordained as a monk and I received dharma transmission. They were 2 different ceremonies. Also, monk ordination and lay ordination are pretty much the same thing in Zen (depending on the teacher, some make a distinction between shukke tokudo and zaike tokudo, but my teacher did not).
My mistake was to create a bull crap in-between category of “priest.” Which nobody understood, including me.
The great irony is that the Dalai Lama, head of one of the biggest Buddhist institutions, never chose (from a secular standpoint) to be the head of that institution…they simply followed the tradition of finding a child that seemed to fit the requirements of a “reincarnation” and proceeded to kidnap (?) the youngster, assigning him to a life in the Dharma. I’m wondering, are the children (“tulkus “) even asked if they want to be monks? Do they have a choice? Seems like they are chosen at such a young age they don’t even know what they are actually getting into…
Yeah. That's weird. Although if one believes in karma, maybe in some sense they do choose to be monks...
It's ethically questionable by Western standards, yes.
Zen Center needs three Elvis Costellos. The early ones when he was more punky and saying things that made people mad.
Hahaha these Indiens. What a bunch of actors
Darn I just bought the lotus sutra based on the book you recommended emptiness & omnipresence lol. As an aside mother Teresa was famous for taking money from anyone for her cause, I read in fact Christopher hitchens wrote an essay on her.
Seriously though. The thing about the Pali Canon and the Agamas for that matter, is that they were compiled after the Buddha's parinibbana so it includes paraphrases of the Buddha's teachings at best. Some of it is stories about the Buddha or his disciples and doesn't purport to be his discourses at all. The most important things in there are the four noble truths and meditation. In fact, meditation is the most important part of buddhism and it's lucky we have that because you can't just take psychedelics all the time. I tried that when I was younger but it just isn't sustainable. For the last 25 years I've only been able to take them about once a year so you need something to open the mind up for the other 364 days, and that's meditation/Zazen or whatever you want to call it.
Board members would be held liable for damages in a sexual harassment suit so, I think, even a small Zen center should have a policy. America is more litigious than Japan. BTW, the Nakamura "Gotama Buddha" books do a good job of pointing out anachronisms in the Pali Canon.
Then maybe we shouldn't have Zen centers at all.
Maybe make the Zen center an LLC.
Could be wrong but that would likely only be the case if there was provable institutionally enacted or encouraged sexual harassment. Like a girl talks to someone about a teacher harassing her and nothing is done about it by the administration and/or there's a culture of overstepping boundaries or engaging in misogyny. Just ONE guy doing something weird isn't going to get the whole institution in trouble for anything regardless of if there's an official policy or not. I mean you can TRY to sue anyone for anything, I guess, but it wouldn't get very far.
Chop water carry wood
At that time, it was only one power hungry ordained priest dipping his wick in litigious ink. I think what Brad was trying to say is that if these folks didn’t think so much of themselves as “teachers” there would have been less of a power dynamic to abuse. I was a “bored member” at ACZC right before the board members mentioned in this video came up with this idea, mostly as a reaction to that out-of-control priest.
The Dalai Lama mainly represents Tibet. He's the Leader of people from Tibet.
The illusory human society won't listen to a nobody, so they need all the props and money to transmit and to be listened to. Why would anyone want to go upstairs a cigarette shop...not many
Don't believe the pali canon is authentic? Figure out what is true for yourself. You don't have to believe any of it actually happened to put the teachings into practice and see what is real.
"Refugee" is the most overused word in the English language.
A document gives you hard ground-rules to work out how to get around, and not "technically violate". It makes it much harder to get away with stuff if you need to dodge a general principle. ;}P>
Yeah... I dunno... it seemed like they were trying to think of every possible hypothetical scenario. It started sounding like soap opera plots to me after a while.
HHDL is not " a spiritual guy" but a holder of many Buddhist lineages, a bodhisattva to whom all the zen masters of the world cannot even stand up a a small inch. He is a holder of dzogchen lineage which is really the root of zen. of course cynt and cok rock? in zen? zen is just very very stupid nowadays and before - fascist samurai zen,thank you . maybe you can just reamin quiet for a year, Brad?
Dzogchen is somewhat similar to Zen. But it is not the "root of zen."
Max Weber is very good on that stuff, Brad. See wikipedia - especially "routinizing Charisma" in this article -en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_authority
So many issues to unpack in this talk…Like “which Buddhist scriptures might be fictional forgeries?”
(Oh my goodness…!)🫢
Also, how many people need to be involved in something before a genuine “institution” is created…? Interesting to ponder…
and aren't people just little institutions (or egregors) anyway
Wow, I didn't know you left Angel City Zen Center. I guess I haven't been following you that much lately. My first impulse was to argue with something you said in the video, but once that dissipated, it has me think of my own ordination, and what does it mean really. It kind of is bs, and from one perspective a delusion. The word priest or monk, and the trust we put into teachers or institutions. It's a trap. 🦞