@@StokkeTennis Humility and extreme clarity in delivering genius principles and practices are a great combo Jonathan. Subscribed to your channel and will refer you to all my fellow tennis players.
I mean regardless, Medvedev does not hit that hard compared to other pros. When he does hit with high pace, it’s largely because he has zero spin on the ball
@@SJ-di5zu Actually his forehands are just 11% less spinny than average, according to an ATP article called "The Secret To Medvedev's Recent Success". Look it up.
Love the “winning” at the recreational level question. I also have better technique than most but often lose to pushers, but I’ve come to the conclusion: who cares. I’m clearly on the court for something else. Trying to change direction, different spins, hitting angles, etc. A lot of the dudes want to win at all costs and that’s fine, but I look good out there!
I started at 10 playing with 2HBH & struggled with inconsistency. It’s taken me 40 years to realize I’m too right hand dominant. Getting a good 1HBH down now at 52 and it feels great. By far the most relaxed stroke I have…
This was great. I enjoyed this so much. I started trying to learn to play quite late in life and it's been slow progress. I now play socially twice a week and also have some 1:1 coaching. The backhand is definitely my weakness, I find position and timing difficult. But I have also found generally that I play better if I don't worry too much about whether my technique is perfect bit just go with the flow and hit the ball 😂. Anyway, this was a fascinating conversation, thanks so much.
The kick serve vs slice serve is weird, because on paper, the kick serve to the backhand is the better shot. It’s much more reliable, easier to control than a slice, goes to their backhand which forces them to either run off the court for a forehand or hit a backhand, and most of the best second servers used it. The only thing the slice serve helps a lot with is the ball bounces low on grass or lower bouncing courts, which can be annoying for someone looking to attack. I’d also point out that Djokovic’s second serve was a weakness for a lot of his career, and even the last few years he’s had patches of greatness from it, but also moments of it being a weakness again. Wimbledon 2023 comes to mind for me, especially pre-final. So I’m not sure why he sticks with the slice over the safer kick. It could just be a comfort thing. Medvedev and Rublev are two other guys who slice their second serves often, and I’d consider both of their second serves to be relative weaknesses. Same deal with Andy Murray. I’ve noticed for a lot of players who use the slice second serve, they tend to slow it down a lot under pressure. That’s because it’s harder to control. I’ve seen Djokovic hit 75-80 mph second serves under pressure; Cincinnati 2018 is a good example iirc. Also USO 2011 I believe, although both he and Rafa were exhausted that tournament, so both were serving very slow. The kick serve solves this problem because on a kick serve, you basically hit the ball as hard as you can regardless of if it’s first or second serve, which makes it a shot that’s less likely to break down under pressure.
on sliding. I slide. practice sliding gently with socks indoors on a wood surface. Practice loading and unloading your hipflexors. slide and hold and 'land' with your hands forward if you fall, and bail into sitting.
For me, the big difference between the two hand, and the one hand back in is the two handle can hit the ball behind them, and they can make a good shot the balls behind them. Once the ball gets behind the one hand back you can only maybe chip it, but you can’t really get your arm that way like the 2 hand, which is really close to your body.
Right hand dominant 2hbh get more stability using the left hand. Also, it’ll lead to a more flexible contact point, whereas 1hbh will struggle more open stance and close to body
Hi Gill, love your content. One for your next mailbag. We all love Grigor Dimitrov and he probably has the most aesthetically pleasing shots. He's also doing great recently. What do you think about his backhand? It seems like he's spamming the backhand slice against all opponents, and although it works against lower ranked opponents I feel like it will cost him against guys in the top 10 as he uses little to no variety. Your thoughts?
Does it matter if female players are using the usual WTA forehand where the take-back goes beyond the line of the body whereas the usual ATP forehand is the take-back completely on the right side of the body?
To mash-up the first two questions a bit… if the main problem with OHB is vulnerability to wide kick-serve or heavy top spin in a rally, but it has advantages elsewhere, then why not learn both (one- and two hands) and switch as needed in the rally? (I’m a one-hander and it’s probably my best shot)
I do both as well,....it's beneficial to learn in case your left(or right) arm gets injured....then you can still play tennis...which happened to me when I injured my left shoulder for a year.
I do both. 2H for return of serve is a must unless it's out wide on the deuce and I can do something tricky on 1H. I mostly use 1H when I'm moving in on a short ball.
The answer on Med's was power muh. I coach HS and I see that LONG thin body deliver that power all the time. Some are downright skinny. And that is technique. So when you two talk about technique over winning, it bugs me. Our big emphasis in the program was technique because you continue to get better and better. Who cares if you lose to a 35 league player. Or 4.0 for mm that matter. That said, you need to be developing strategy, toughness, and fitness if you're playing singles. You can't just have good technique on your strokes. It's all about figuring out what they're doing to them and what your weapons are, and what you can do to them. I don't mean this is criticism. I really enjoyed this podcast the most of any you've ever done. Well, I guess I'm exaggerating. If Novak wins a title, then I enjoy that as much too. But thanks, this was a great idea.
I'm all for technique, just the fundamentals. You can have your own individual style, but all the great players use the same fundamentals. So many players hit the ball well. Like you said, strategy, toughness and fitness usually separate the good from the great. Love your feedback 👊
Tsitsipas may come back to the top 10, but his fall out of it is a big sign that the 1HBH will soon become obsolete. As for Teodor Davidov and the two forehands, it will likely not work at the pro level. Maybe in college, but I'm curious how well he'll perform there as well. With two forehands, you have to switch the hands and the constant decision-making of which dominant hand to use on every ball is the most hindering factor. Now, if he had a double-handled racquet a 'la Brian Battistone, this might alleviate the decision-making, but that is one awkward racquet to use!
there are 1814 players in the atp tour, but there are only 49 players with one hand backhand: 2,7% of them. But, in top 100, there are 11 players with one hand backhand, 11%. So,it seems having a one hand backand is better than two handed backhands, statistically.
Tsitsipas had some injuries that's why last year has been tough and that's why he's out of top 10. And he's not the only elite player with weaknesses. He'll be back.
I don't understand how tsitsipas is the standard of the one hander. It's like suggesting that not having a 2 hander is why one handers are not making top 10. Tennis is more than which kind of backhand u use
On the topic of losing to people who have worse technique than, i feel like there's a range of technical ability where the active attempt to hit higher quality balls lowers your chances of winning, because it increases the chance of missing far more than it makes the ball difficult for your opponent to hit. It many cases, hitting a cleaner ball makes it EASIER for your opponent to deal with. - But does that mean we shouldnt strive to hit a clean ball? Idk. I call it "playing to improve" vs "playing to win". Personally, im always striving to execute at the top pf my technical ability, and though i feel like im always playing below my potential best level at the moment, that potential keeps going up as i make technical improvments. I dont think i would have improved as much technically if i never pushed myself to keep playing aggresssively despite it not always being the tactically best play. - Maybe im just being stupid, but thats veen my experience
So I never watch women's juniors matches and randomly click on one via ESPN+ and there I saw an incredible one handed player named Cinalli after being told by experts "ZERO" one handers exist in womens junior tennis.
@@Amenopip I wasn't thinking about him replacing someone else, just that he should have been in it. My comment was a subtle joke. His won-loss record is so terrible lately that it would have been an indication that the one handed backhand shouldn't survive. It's sad because I was/am a Shapo fan and think he has an amazing backhand.
The 1hb has disadvantages but from a statistical macro standpoint, most players nowadays have a 2hb. (Lots of reasons for this) Therefore, by scarcity alone it's less likely for a 1bh player to be in the top 10. In fact many many more people with a 2bh are outside the top 10 as well.
The fact there are so few 1hb players on the tour and some managed to make the top 10 is actually quite amazing. At the end of the day we must consider the complete player. No matter 1hb or 2hb, every player has weaknesses. Those in the top 10 have managed to leverage their strengths while minimizing exposure of weaknesses. They are just super athletes all around.
I see a Lajovic and his ohb never felt like a disadvantage in his game . We don’t see it cause It’s not teach. If 50 per cent of kid played with ohb we would have more
Rolling "high heavies" and sending kick serves to a one-hand backhand are fine tactics, but not winning tactics by themselves. Two-handers are in no small part creatures of modern tennis racquets and strings.
I dont agree with the fact that backhand cannot win matches, stan won fo 2015 with his bh, djoko has won numerous with his bh, roger won ao 2017 with his bh
Why top player do so bad when they play in less prestigious tournaments? Say South America swing or middle east ones. More recent results, like Norrie, Alcaraz and Wawrinka losing and Argentine open.
tsitsipas isn’t out of top 10 because of his backhand. He’s out of top 10 because of injuries. The way you talk about him is so disrespectful, you talk as if he wasn’t the one keeping the OHBH in top 10 alive on his own for years.
Seriously? Tsitsipasses biggest liability since he arrived on tour was and still is his backhand and everyone is exploiting. Yes, injuries are there as well but before injuries he had the capacity to win a lot more with a better backhand...be real
@@MA-rq6ie Did I say it isn’t his weakness? No. I think that’s obvious to anyone, but his forehand can make up for that a majority of the time and his athleticism when he’s fully healthy. He was in top 10 for FIVE years and always had a one handed backhand. He fell out of top 10 because of injuries.
@@idk-g8g think about it this way - his serve is probably one of the best in the world, not as good as Hurkacz but one of the best. His forehand is one of the best in the world, not as good as maybe Alcaraz but one of the best. His athleticism is also great, net game as well. So when he wasn't injured, with all those weapons and his prime years, he still couldn't get over the hurdle (not saying he doesn't have a successfull career, just saying those weapons he has are huge not to be a GS champ). So even when fully healthy he was still outplayed by the best. I still blame the backhand but ok, maybe the backhand is not to blame for him leaving top 10, but its to blame for better career so far for sure.
@@MA-rq6ie Serve isn’t better than Hubi but FH is better than Alcaraz. It’s just behind Novak. When would you say his prime years were? Because he’s not been fully fit since the end of 2020 if we’re being totally honest. Despite that he made 2 slam finals where he unfortunately had to play against a pretty good player in both finals? Medvedev is a great player with a slam but let’s all be honest, he only has that slam because he got to play a shell of Novak in his final. Maybe if Tsitsipas had gotten that kind of novak in one of his finals, he would have a slam too. He didn’t. Novak himself said both of them matches were two of his best performances in slams. His backhand IS a weakness, but it’s not the reason he doesn’t have a slam. A lot of great players from his generation and before don’t have slams or many slams because of big 3. Comparing him to players who never had to face big 3 is unfair.
Love this collab. Thanks for partnering up! So much good thinking on tennis happens across both your channels.
I didn't know Jonathan Stokke before this, but wow, am I impressed! I learned a ton listening to his opinions and insights.
Gill, this might have been the most interesting episode and guest you’ve ever had on the show. Fascinating all throughout
Brilliant guests Gill, so many good anectodes and tips. Great being introduced to Stokke
Never heard of Stokke until this podcast. Now i'm a fan.
Same here, never heard of the guy, but he gave a great analysis!
Absolutely sensational session Gill and Jonathan… This was really really enjoyable and useful. BRAVO!
Humbled to be invited on the show!
@@StokkeTennis Humility and extreme clarity in delivering genius principles and practices are a great combo Jonathan. Subscribed to your channel and will refer you to all my fellow tennis players.
One thing people might be missing about Medvedev's body is his leverages. That racquet will move pretty fast being so far from his shoulder.
I mean regardless, Medvedev does not hit that hard compared to other pros. When he does hit with high pace, it’s largely because he has zero spin on the ball
@@SJ-di5zu Actually his forehands are just 11% less spinny than average, according to an ATP article called "The Secret To Medvedev's Recent Success". Look it up.
Stumbled into Stokke's youtube a week or two ago and I was immediately impressed. Super stokked for more as an old man rec player. Great guest Gill.
You can look forward to more videos on the way!
Wow - what a fantastic conversation. Intriguing and thought-provoking throughout. Made me want to get out of my chair and pick up a racquet.
I hope you did!
Love the “winning” at the recreational level question. I also have better technique than most but often lose to pushers, but I’ve come to the conclusion: who cares. I’m clearly on the court for something else. Trying to change direction, different spins, hitting angles, etc. A lot of the dudes want to win at all costs and that’s fine, but I look good out there!
I started at 10 playing with 2HBH & struggled with inconsistency. It’s taken me 40 years to realize I’m too right hand dominant. Getting a good 1HBH down now at 52 and it feels great. By far the most relaxed stroke I have…
Awesome! Great convo guys
Loved this one! For the one who had never played tennis at competitive level it feels very enlightening.
Great one!! Great guest!
This was great. I enjoyed this so much. I started trying to learn to play quite late in life and it's been slow progress. I now play socially twice a week and also have some 1:1 coaching. The backhand is definitely my weakness, I find position and timing difficult. But I have also found generally that I play better if I don't worry too much about whether my technique is perfect bit just go with the flow and hit the ball 😂. Anyway, this was a fascinating conversation, thanks so much.
Once you get into the match, stop thinking technique. In practice it’s ok, but when you get to the match, just PLAY
Super collab, ultra interesting! love mailbags 👍
Loved this collab! Need to do this more often
You’re the man Gil. Love your channel, keep it up 🙏🏻
I loved this podcast. Very informational. Hope you get this guest on again soon 🎾
Aha!! Re the follow through😀
And the ball toss.
This stuff is good stuff.
More please!
great content as always gill 🐐
The kick serve vs slice serve is weird, because on paper, the kick serve to the backhand is the better shot. It’s much more reliable, easier to control than a slice, goes to their backhand which forces them to either run off the court for a forehand or hit a backhand, and most of the best second servers used it. The only thing the slice serve helps a lot with is the ball bounces low on grass or lower bouncing courts, which can be annoying for someone looking to attack.
I’d also point out that Djokovic’s second serve was a weakness for a lot of his career, and even the last few years he’s had patches of greatness from it, but also moments of it being a weakness again. Wimbledon 2023 comes to mind for me, especially pre-final. So I’m not sure why he sticks with the slice over the safer kick. It could just be a comfort thing. Medvedev and Rublev are two other guys who slice their second serves often, and I’d consider both of their second serves to be relative weaknesses. Same deal with Andy Murray.
I’ve noticed for a lot of players who use the slice second serve, they tend to slow it down a lot under pressure. That’s because it’s harder to control. I’ve seen Djokovic hit 75-80 mph second serves under pressure; Cincinnati 2018 is a good example iirc. Also USO 2011 I believe, although both he and Rafa were exhausted that tournament, so both were serving very slow. The kick serve solves this problem because on a kick serve, you basically hit the ball as hard as you can regardless of if it’s first or second serve, which makes it a shot that’s less likely to break down under pressure.
“Missing those average shots”
…. Love it! That’s tennis baby!
Great content and discussion.
awesome episode
Loved this one Gill
on sliding. I slide.
practice sliding gently with socks indoors on a wood surface. Practice loading and unloading your hipflexors.
slide and hold and 'land' with your hands forward if you fall, and bail into sitting.
For me, the big difference between the two hand, and the one hand back in is the two handle can hit the ball behind them, and they can make a good shot the balls behind them. Once the ball gets behind the one hand back you can only maybe chip it, but you can’t really get your arm that way like the 2 hand, which is really close to your body.
Great insights
The Davidov kid is also serving with both hands. I have a sense that's going to be even more challenging in the long run for his opponents.
Right hand dominant 2hbh get more stability using the left hand. Also, it’ll lead to a more flexible contact point, whereas 1hbh will struggle more open stance and close to body
Sinner slides so well because he was a junior ski champion?
could be!
100%
Hi Gill, love your content. One for your next mailbag.
We all love Grigor Dimitrov and he probably has the most aesthetically pleasing shots. He's also doing great recently. What do you think about his backhand? It seems like he's spamming the backhand slice against all opponents, and although it works against lower ranked opponents I feel like it will cost him against guys in the top 10 as he uses little to no variety. Your thoughts?
Does it matter if female players are using the usual WTA forehand where the take-back goes beyond the line of the body whereas the usual ATP forehand is the take-back completely on the right side of the body?
I don’t think it matters, although it’s best to limit how much they do it
Thanks for the advice! 😊
Hi Gill! For the 2 forehand players, what slice would they use, many players prefer the backhand slice
8:07 Ask Gasquet that question. LOL
To mash-up the first two questions a bit… if the main problem with OHB is vulnerability to wide kick-serve or heavy top spin in a rally, but it has advantages elsewhere, then why not learn both (one- and two hands) and switch as needed in the rally?
(I’m a one-hander and it’s probably my best shot)
I do both as well,....it's beneficial to learn in case your left(or right) arm gets injured....then you can still play tennis...which happened to me when I injured my left shoulder for a year.
I do both. 2H for return of serve is a must unless it's out wide on the deuce and I can do something tricky on 1H. I mostly use 1H when I'm moving in on a short ball.
It's difficult, I can hit both but my one hander is way better.
But you can also play with a grip more near to semi western on one hander
Sounds feasible if you can develop two shots, as long as you don't hesitate about which one to use.
The answer on Med's was power muh. I coach HS and I see that LONG thin body deliver that power all the time. Some are downright skinny. And that is technique. So when you two talk about technique over winning, it bugs me. Our big emphasis in the program was technique because you continue to get better and better. Who cares if you lose to a 35 league player. Or 4.0 for mm that matter.
That said, you need to be developing strategy, toughness, and fitness if you're playing singles. You can't just have good technique on your strokes.
It's all about figuring out what they're doing to them and what your weapons are, and what you can do to them.
I don't mean this is criticism. I really enjoyed this podcast the most of any you've ever done.
Well, I guess I'm exaggerating. If Novak wins a title, then I enjoy that as much too. But thanks, this was a great idea.
I'm all for technique, just the fundamentals. You can have your own individual style, but all the great players use the same fundamentals. So many players hit the ball well. Like you said, strategy, toughness and fitness usually separate the good from the great. Love your feedback 👊
Tsitsipas may come back to the top 10, but his fall out of it is a big sign that the 1HBH will soon become obsolete.
As for Teodor Davidov and the two forehands, it will likely not work at the pro level. Maybe in college, but I'm curious how well he'll perform there as well. With two forehands, you have to switch the hands and the constant decision-making of which dominant hand to use on every ball is the most hindering factor. Now, if he had a double-handled racquet a 'la Brian Battistone, this might alleviate the decision-making, but that is one awkward racquet to use!
there are 1814 players in the atp tour, but there are only 49 players with one hand backhand: 2,7% of them. But, in top 100, there are 11 players with one hand backhand, 11%. So,it seems having a one hand backand is better than two handed backhands, statistically.
Tsitsipas had some injuries that's why last year has been tough and that's why he's out of top 10. And he's not the only elite player with weaknesses.
He'll be back.
I don't understand how tsitsipas is the standard of the one hander. It's like suggesting that not having a 2 hander is why one handers are not making top 10. Tennis is more than which kind of backhand u use
On the topic of losing to people who have worse technique than, i feel like there's a range of technical ability where the active attempt to hit higher quality balls lowers your chances of winning, because it increases the chance of missing far more than it makes the ball difficult for your opponent to hit. It many cases, hitting a cleaner ball makes it EASIER for your opponent to deal with.
-
But does that mean we shouldnt strive to hit a clean ball? Idk. I call it "playing to improve" vs "playing to win". Personally, im always striving to execute at the top pf my technical ability, and though i feel like im always playing below my potential best level at the moment, that potential keeps going up as i make technical improvments. I dont think i would have improved as much technically if i never pushed myself to keep playing aggresssively despite it not always being the tactically best play.
-
Maybe im just being stupid, but thats veen my experience
It will be fine
So I never watch women's juniors matches and randomly click on one via ESPN+ and there I saw an incredible one handed player named Cinalli after being told by experts "ZERO" one handers exist in womens junior tennis.
Your thumbnail would have made a lot more sense if you had Shapo in it 😂🤣
Shapo instead of who?
@@Amenopip I wasn't thinking about him replacing someone else, just that he should have been in it. My comment was a subtle joke. His won-loss record is so terrible lately that it would have been an indication that the one handed backhand shouldn't survive. It's sad because I was/am a Shapo fan and think he has an amazing backhand.
Is this the Johnathan Stokke that played at Duke?
I am!
I hit both. Two-hander for return of serve or high balls, one-hander for everything else. Never understood why the pro's don't (except for Ash Barty).
Ash Barty doesn't have a one handed backhand. Unless you're talking about backhand slice, which everyone does with one hand.
The 1hb has disadvantages but from a statistical macro standpoint, most players nowadays have a 2hb. (Lots of reasons for this) Therefore, by scarcity alone it's less likely for a 1bh player to be in the top 10. In fact many many more people with a 2bh are outside the top 10 as well.
The fact there are so few 1hb players on the tour and some managed to make the top 10 is actually quite amazing.
At the end of the day we must consider the complete player. No matter 1hb or 2hb, every player has weaknesses. Those in the top 10 have managed to leverage their strengths while minimizing exposure of weaknesses. They are just super athletes all around.
I see a Lajovic and his ohb never felt like a disadvantage in his game . We don’t see it cause It’s not teach. If 50 per cent of kid played with ohb we would have more
dont think ohb matters at req lvl ofc if ur super competitive at pro lvl you need an above average ohb
Yes. Yes it will.
'Better' in tennis is such a misconception ☺
Rolling "high heavies" and sending kick serves to a one-hand backhand are fine tactics, but not winning tactics by themselves. Two-handers are in no small part creatures of modern tennis racquets and strings.
I dont agree with the fact that backhand cannot win matches, stan won fo 2015 with his bh, djoko has won numerous with his bh, roger won ao 2017 with his bh
Charleston whoop whoop
Why top player do so bad when they play in less prestigious tournaments? Say South America swing or middle east ones. More recent results, like Norrie, Alcaraz and Wawrinka losing and Argentine open.
Stop worrying about the one handed backhand
tsitsipas isn’t out of top 10 because of his backhand. He’s out of top 10 because of injuries. The way you talk about him is so disrespectful, you talk as if he wasn’t the one keeping the OHBH in top 10 alive on his own for years.
Seriously? Tsitsipasses biggest liability since he arrived on tour was and still is his backhand and everyone is exploiting. Yes, injuries are there as well but before injuries he had the capacity to win a lot more with a better backhand...be real
@@MA-rq6ie Did I say it isn’t his weakness? No. I think that’s obvious to anyone, but his forehand can make up for that a majority of the time and his athleticism when he’s fully healthy. He was in top 10 for FIVE years and always had a one handed backhand. He fell out of top 10 because of injuries.
@@idk-g8g think about it this way - his serve is probably one of the best in the world, not as good as Hurkacz but one of the best. His forehand is one of the best in the world, not as good as maybe Alcaraz but one of the best. His athleticism is also great, net game as well. So when he wasn't injured, with all those weapons and his prime years, he still couldn't get over the hurdle (not saying he doesn't have a successfull career, just saying those weapons he has are huge not to be a GS champ). So even when fully healthy he was still outplayed by the best. I still blame the backhand but ok, maybe the backhand is not to blame for him leaving top 10, but its to blame for better career so far for sure.
You out of ur mind dude
@@MA-rq6ie Serve isn’t better than Hubi but FH is better than Alcaraz. It’s just behind Novak. When would you say his prime years were? Because he’s not been fully fit since the end of 2020 if we’re being totally honest. Despite that he made 2 slam finals where he unfortunately had to play against a pretty good player in both finals? Medvedev is a great player with a slam but let’s all be honest, he only has that slam because he got to play a shell of Novak in his final. Maybe if Tsitsipas had gotten that kind of novak in one of his finals, he would have a slam too. He didn’t. Novak himself said both of them matches were two of his best performances in slams. His backhand IS a weakness, but it’s not the reason he doesn’t have a slam. A lot of great players from his generation and before don’t have slams or many slams because of big 3. Comparing him to players who never had to face big 3 is unfair.