Latter-Day Saint Faith Crisis - "It's A Natural Development Process"
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- Опубліковано 21 жов 2024
- Jeffrey Thayne, Nathaniel Givens, and Dan Ellsworth
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What is faith? What is knowledge and testimony?
A faith crisis is a developmental event and a natural occurrence for some on a journey of faith. We all mature in our faith at different rates and in different stages. None of us can move forward in our faith without working with uncertainty and doubt.
Jeffrey Thayne "Worldview Apologetics" FAIR Presentation - • "Worldview Apologetics...
Nathaniel Givens - "Heresies That Happen To Be True" - publicsquarema...
2:09 - What is faith?
12:04 - What is Knowledge and Testimony?
17:30 - What is the proper balance of strict faith-promoting teaching and inoculation of diverse ideas and learning/teaching sources?
27:53 - Our fixation on immediate certainty
37:03 - The sign (Knowledge) after the faith - Faith is a developmental process
41:52 - "We have this assumption that a sturdy faith never changes"
55:48 - Salt Lake Temple rebuild as faith metaphor
1:08:30 - Gen Z & Millenials immersed in a society with new worldviews
1:18:25 - Questions a doubter should ask themselves
1:30 :00 - Preventing a faith crisis in your family
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#CwicShow #LDS #FaithCrisis
Thank you for this wonderful discussion. It answered so many questions I've had and will help me to negotiate the concerns my children have. Thank you all!!
Happy to hear that!
why aren't we having a crisis of our doubts.....
This discussion is a Godsend. Thank you so much for doing it. You will help thousands going through their own "faith crisis" (for lack of a better term), and also help families with loved ones who have or are going through it. As a mom of five kids, where 4 have "left the Church", I have experienced much sadness and helplessness over it. One child (my youngest) was very stalwart until about a year ago. They (to protect identity) had been introduced to online anti-LDS propaganda/podcasts, which lead to their decision to leave the Church. Their life has not progressed in a very positive way. Embracing instead, worldly thought and influences, a cloud of darkness and depression has taken over this once joyful, sweet soul. How I wish they could recognize the influence that rejecting the Gospel has made in their life. How I wish they would listen to this discussion!
So many burdens! Agency is tricky. We can only hope that they come around with new eyes.
I like Brother Thanes idea that faith is a commitment to Christ without my knowing everything.
I have experienced periods in my life where my commitment to keeping certain values/behaviors or devoted church activity but have never experienced a faith or belief crisis. My parents held morning and evening prayer with scripture reading every day of our lives. Our parents committed us to personal scripture reading every day from very young years on. I read all of the standard works before 12 years of age and at least 2-3 times through the book of Mormon. I sought heavenly visitation, thinking that Joseph Smith received an answer at 14. From 12 to 14 years of age, I pled for a heavenly visitation. At 14 years near my birthday, I was pleading for a heavenly visit when a profound mental answer came to me in a mild but chiding message: "You have been taught all of these truths, and lived them, and you know the Book of Mormon is true already, what more do you need? Isn't demanding more than this a little silly?" Now, in my later years, I have confident that I can get the answers I need to any challenge.
One more thing to do. Jesus Christ said “Feed My Sheep”, this obligation never ends, in this estate or in Heaven.
@@ronpalmer2u Yes, and if all we had to do is believe the purpose of the church would be rendered less important. The organization is such that more sheep can be fed by many fold than without the church.
@@bobwilkinson1217 At the age of fifteen is when God showed me, and I knew nothing. This went on up to the age of 22, not exactly the same story's, but all had the same meaning. I can even explain how they performed miracles, and why. That comes with seeking the truth in action, but the one thing is I know God exists.,
I actually just spoke on this in a ward. I mentioned the confusion around the word faith and what it really means to have faith in something, and compared the English word to the Swedish word, “tro.“
The Swedish word is related to the English words trust and true. I don’t know what exactly God looks like, but I trust that he can help me when I need it. That trust has proven true because He’s always helped me in every single difficult situation I’ve had.
Yes. Faith =Trust
Reminds me of the Stoddards' Faith Crisis books
Henry J Eyring. The gospel is not the people. The gospel is not the leaders. The gospel is the truth
Joseph Smith had the 2nd Comforter. He saw God the Father and the Son, Joseph had a sure knowledge.
I am 83 years old and died once and know that I do not die only this mortal body. I am a spirit and when in the spirit I was still me. I felt the Love of Heavenly Father as I moved at will through the air upward to the light and I was praising God and felt a great love for Him, I was going Home. We must be come spiritual and put off the mortal thinking. All of soon will leave the mortal and we will see that spirit is eternal and what truly matters including having an eternal wife or husband. Before I entered the light I was sent back with a thud. I was tingling all over from lack of oxygen. I could not breathe or move. After the 3rd attempt to breathe, I suddenly took a keep breath and could move again. Slowly the tingling left me. This experience was wonderful and I look forward to be called home.
Some people daisy chain their faith, so if one link in the chain breaks, the whole thing breaks and then they roll all about as tumbleweeds going whether the wind blows them. Faith is not meant to be built that way like a big long daisy chain. Rather proper faith has to be woven together of many strands or cables tied to many different things. so if one strand breaks, the whole entire thing does not come all crashing down because you got many other cables supporting it.
But its when you daisy chain up everything in an big endless long line that you run into a faith crisis soon as one link in the chain in the line weakens or snaps then one single issue or troubling question can bring the whole entire thing down and then comes the faith crisis when the whole thing breaks. and collapses. To avoid having your faith all crash and burn over one or two hard questions you may not have answers for you have to use more than one strand to support it with...
So then things don't bother you as much when questionable things come up...You can simply put them on the back burner and wait on the Lords timetable for him to give you the answers when its HIS WILL to give 'those answers. Nothing bothers me about the church in what it does in the past or doing now because of the way I built my faith up upon many spiritual experiences with God. None of those things that was done in the past by early church leaders bother me at all because they lived in a different time of era than the one
I'm living in now..
Jeffrey R. Holland, Cast Not Away Therefore Your Confidence.
That's why Jesus teaches, Doubt NOT but be believing.. But with alot of members today its Be Believing but Give Doubt a nice little summer cottage to go on holidays with.
Why are we entertaining Doubt like its a welcome holiday guest?
My eternal companion divorced me several years ago. My faith went to the shitter and it isn’t ever coming back! 👎
The Church is True, we are eternal spirit sons and daughters of God and are being tested, that why life is short. We came from God and we go back to God, who is our Heavenly Father. The test is "Proofing". we must become clean through Jesus Christ in order to live with our Heavenly Father again. In the world but not of the world, only through Faith and Relying on the Saving Power of Jesus Christ.
Faith is an everlasting ACTION. It uses both Spirit and Body. Righteous desires sealed to Righteous works.
Bom reading is the way forward
Read the Book of Mormon every day. It's the most correct and powerful book ever written.
Best advice possible.
Reads a lot like the Bible though. Sorry the Bible was first not BOM.
100% correct. But be careful what you ask for. Serious detached study of the BoM will greatly accelerate the exodus from lds institution as it condemns no organization on earth harder than the lds institution in its present condition.
Great presentation. I really enjoyed this video. As I watched this and listened about faith crisis etc, I couldnt help but think of two talks. One of the most powerful talks I've heard is called "stand forever" by Lawrence corbridge. It is excellent. Ive watched it many times. Also, last gen conf talk "daily restoration " by uchtdorf. I also strongly agree about immersing yourself particularly in the book of mormon. There are times when I read it tears come to my eyes. When you have a testimony and know of its truthfulness then thats all you need to know. When doubts and crisis arrive you can always fall back on the anchor ⚓ of the truthfulness of that sacred record.
We need to spend time having daily experience with God everyday. Also, i suggest not to use your phone to read scriptures but actually use a hard copy where you can mark and write notes thoughts and feelings down.. i guess im old skool. I dont like using my phone to read scriptures. Way too many distractions with my phone.. How are you spending your time? Read these two talks.
I also love a hard copy of the Book Of Mormon vs phone! I like coloring in verses and seeing the progress Im making and it feels like I have gold leaves in my hands as I turn the thin crinkly pages. I like writing in my scriptures too.
Greg on changing faith at 46:04. The problem is two fold. We have members who feel guilty about admitting they need help when they have faith crises. They may be in denial of the problem. If they admit it where do they go for help. If the crises is doctrine or history based, the ward bishop may not have heard those controversial topics. or does not have time to counsel everyone with a faith crisis. The other part may be the LDS culture that feels everyone should do certain things like pray, read scriptures, attend sacrament and all will be well. And that does not work then it's blame the victim since they had a poor testimony to begin with. When I brought this up in a meeting months ago about where does one turn if they have a faith crisis I was shot down and the leader changed the subject. It appears that to have a faith crisis in the church admits weakness and defeat. As your panel says, it is a developmental problem not just for Gen-Z and Millennials, but for people of all ages. There should be no shame associated with having a faith crisis and seeking help for it in the church.
I think having a faith crisis is necessary for growth. Heavenly Father expects us to be intelligent beings who can work through seemingly contradictory messages, and will provide just enough hints and clues (through the Holy Ghost) to get you through, stronger than before. Congrats on being a sentient, thinking member of the church.
Scott Brandon I completely agree. The best option today is turning to a few books on the subject. Also, one of the guests, Dan Ellsworth, has been ministering in Faith Crisis for several years. When a Bishop can give references for marital and personal counseling, he should also have good references to individuals and maybe faith-based groups that can offer the support needed IMO.
38:24 interesting. You would think after a life time of living the gospel that would not be considered asking for a sign and would be considered the faith journey
Faith is action taking IMO. You act out your best path forward based on what you know. The faith comes in because we can't ever be certain that the actions we are taking are getting us closer to our target. Faith also comes into play when we aren't even sure what the target is that we should be aiming at. We act in faith.
There is always a degree of self deception we have to work out in our lives. That's the hard part.
I can meet you part way on this. To me, IMO, faith is simply trust. That's the great secret! Real trust is truth and it's earned.
Serious study and prayer aids and creates absolute faith. Believe it is necessary to work on faith and it is experienced knowledge. God does withdraw. But, he is there. With that belief, It is always followed by unexplained experiences or resolutions to heart felt requests and answers that can no way be explained but by belief, faith. God hears and I have witnessed so many things I cannot count them. But it does require input in developing.
I resigned my membership in the church a couple years ago and was re-baptised in this past August. I love the topics you cover and how you cover them 👍🏻
I appreciate that! Congratulations!
Now that is good news.
Welcome back, brother.
Wow. What brought you back? I left in 15', still out.
@@t-pain3343 go to Gospel Tangents, just a suggestion, watch the interview on the Author that wrote the book on the lost 116 pages. He left a few years ago after book research on polygamy but his research on the earlist b of m pages actually brought him back to the church. I'm actually reading his book now.
The Lord built the church, then he let us in
What Jeffrey pointed out at the 35 minute mark is critical. Nate touched on it too, his desire for certainty. Ultimately, the first principle and ordinance of the gospel is "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ" not certainty in the Lord Jesus Christ. Now why not certainty? Well, when we consider the eternal nature of creation and what that entails, anything before it is manifested physically, is created spiritually and that is done by faith not by certainty. Before an object becomes physical, whether it's a building or an invention of some sort, it goes through a process of creation that is similar to "spiritual" creation so to speak.
This is why I personally believe we will never find definitive anthropological evidence for the Book of Mormon, the Bible or any other book we claim to be divinely inspired. If we could "prove" their truthfulness, then what need have we for faith? And then how would we as children of our Heavenly Father learn to become creators? We wouldn't learn the eternal process of creation without faith.
To the topic at hand about faith crisis, I am a seminary teacher and I do believe in the inoculation strategy but using correct sources (church essays, first source material). I also think we need to not be afraid of our church history and how the restoration came about, every part of it including polygamy. Studying the restoration and the more difficult parts of our church history has only deepened my faith in it. I see the hand of God everywhere in it and even in the parts people don't want to talk about.
I have like Nate, read a lot of anti material due to the fact that I had two brothers leave the church and in an effort to understand their reasons for leaving. When you go behind the anti literature and find out where they are getting their information, a lot of it came from ..... surprise, surprise anti's who were contemporaries of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Much of their "documentation" is not even accurate if you read the original material they claim to get their information from. The problem is that like my brothers, a lot of members don't bother to do the research behind the "research" and they take the word of individuals who claim to be "looking" out for us members. Their podcasts often take on a compassionate (ala JD) tone all the while, their goal isn't to help save us... nope. It's to justify to themselves why they left. It amazes me how many people leave our church but can't leave it alone.
I would like to know how your parents handled your brother's choice to leave and what your relationship is with them. Did their leaving change the family dynamic? The gospel is such an integral part of strong families I've often wondered how the loss of one or more members to the gospel effects family cohesion.
I'm speaking from experience.
I find people who are aware of church history/issues to be very interesting people. I'm no longer LDS, but the religious system of Mormonism still fascinates me.
@@sherigraham3873 I am so sorry you are going through that. It is very hard.
Well, both brothers also left the family for a time. They estranged themselves from us. Despite our efforts to remain nonjudgmental and understanding, they both spent about 5 years away from the family. They also unfortunately experimented with drugs and alcohol. Both of my brothers eventually ended their estrangement, but one of my brothers was so out of sorts with the decisions he made after he left the church. He struggled in so many ways and he asked my parents if he thought the church would take him back. He admitted that he was the happiest he ever was, when he was a member of the church. Of course we reassured him that the gospel is a gospel for everyone and that we are all sinners. I don't think he could forgive himself. He tragically took his life in 2019 just six months after reconciling with the family. It's such a heartbreak, but what we know about the atonement and the Savior's power to save, gives me great hope that all will be well and I will see him and hug him again.
@@t-pain3343 It really is a fascinating history and religion. I can see why it still intrigues you. And there is always more to learn!
What I call that is complicated sin, the sin that others have that influence your actions and thoughts. All those story's in the bible are related, most of which God has shown me, if not all of them. Plus I think it has more to do with, setting yourself up to overcome complicated sin. The right frame of mind, plus action in order to find out.
Here’s a question for one and all ; Just . Who is this Jesus , THE CHRIST , to which this one and my family , should fall down and worship this , merciful , charitable , chastising , patient , reasoning , clarifying fellow being?
I always say the same thing about faith being almost identical with the scientific method! It’s just that the evidence must be individual, so in the end, everyone has to do a peer review ☺️
Indeed! I wish more people understood this!
"When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant." - Joseph Smith
Faith should be based in Jesus Christ, not church leaders. I don't have much faith in the current 1st Presidency, but I do have faith in Christ, and that means being obedient to leaders until Christ directs otherwise.
Study how the keys work.
@@mattctr i understand how the keys work. However, watching Pres. Nelson speak gives me the same sensation I felt when a water moccasin crawled across my legs. Im not a noob. My point being that whatever doubts I have about a man (whoever he is) does not diminish my faith in the Saviour or the gospel.
@@aarondb8300 Get to the point: What issue do you disagree with him on? Is it the vaccine thing?
@@mattctr all of my concerns can be summed up by Moroni's prophecy in Mormon 8, in which he accuses the teachers (the brethren) of corrupting the holy church (the Church) for the praise of the world. This 1st Presidency is responsible for the ongoing apostasy at BYU and embracing organizations diametrically opposed to the Church of Jesus Christ. They seem particularly interested in making us popular in the world.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?
Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ?
Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies-
because of the praise of the world?
@@aarondb8300 I appreciate your candor in stating what is a perplexing question -- a sort of elephant in the living room that not many acknowledge. Why does the Church seem to be offering an olive branch to groups and organizations that oppose our doctrines and do not reciprocate our efforts of friendship? I do not have the water moccasin sensation -- far from that -- about the first presidency but something akin to that arises when I listen to a "woke" sounding speech from the BYU campus or read certain editorials from the Deseret News. The Church's seeming accommodation to the politically correct may well be serving some other purpose. Maybe staying under the radar until the "When Thy Judgements Reap Destruction.." moment comes has a strategic purpose. When Ezra Taft Benson assumed the presidency of the Church a certain University of Utah professor, Ed Fermidge, opined that Benson would usher in a sad period for the LDS. Never happened. I wondered about Spencer W. Kimball's opposition to the rail-based missile defense system being contemplated at the time. It turned out that he was much wiser than I on the question. I have rambled a lot in this post. Mea culpa! But like you, I feel that Moroni, when he talked of the polluting the Holy Church of God, wasn't talking about the Hari Krishna's or the Baptist congregation down the street.
Brother, stay strong in Jesus Christ and stay strong in the Restored Church. The mysteries of God will be unfolded to you.
The fact is that you cannot demonize a group of people with whom your children interact without having your credibility and authority undermined every time those people act like normal, relatable human beings in the presence of your children.
I have a question regarding faith...can you have true faith in Christ and still deny the restored gospel? I have known many people throughout my life whose devotion to their belief in Christ has been exemplary. They strive to serve in their community; they teach of Christ; they study the Bible; they do so much to live their faith yet when presented with the restored gospel they are closed minded and want nothing to do with it.
You have to keep serving, live the gospel, tell everyone about the Fullness of the Gospel, what it means, there is still a lot to know. Our true relationship to Heavenly Father. I help the missionaries by meeting with them giving lessons. I am the Ward organist. Do more in-depth study. I am a former Baptist minister that was lead 51 years ago to the Book of Mormon and then to the Church. Ask God what else you can do including your wife and family. Missionary work doesn’t end it is forever.
In times of crisis of faith, I like Peter’s response to the Savior, “Lord, to whom shall we go?” If your faith is waning, what else would you do? After knowing what you know, what else would you do or where would you go? To me, nothing else makes sense.
Try it out Crypto Surfer. The church preaches this idea that there is nowhere else to go, but they also preach living a principle to find out if it's true. As someone who left 6 years ago, I can testify that I know that there are better places than the church. I was in the church for 30 years, and so I've experienced both sides. Have you? If you apply the church's logic to testing a principle, can you apply the same principle to something like Secular Humanism?
@@cday31 so, looks like you have joined those that Christ was referring to when speaking to Peter. “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” To each his own, agency allows us to find our own path.
Through much Study and Prayer, our Faith will grow until there is no doubt That Jesus is the Christ and we are sons and daughters of God. John 20:17 Jesus Christ says it all. READ It and Study what it means.
I feel that if there is a faith crises, it's because members are spending too much time away from the scriptures. I have come to realize that if I lose my faith I would need to be able to explain them away, which is something I cannot do. From every angle I look at it, man does not have the intellegence or wisdom to produce such a record on his own. The pieces fit too well. I will always be linked to God because of the scriptures, regardless of what the leaders do.
Yes a relative who fell away from reading internet information, came back because of the Book of Mormon and not being able to explain it away. It stands up to all criticisms.
This is exactly right. The modern day revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith represent one of the greatest gifts ever given to men on earth. Every time we read and ponder them our minds are filled with light. As a young teenage convert (from reading the Book of Mormon) I came to love the Book of Mormon. I have read it every one of my 45 years as a Church Member. I can say the Book of Mormon defies the laws of diminishing returns as I have marvelous returns from every reading. I have never had a faith crisis. The restored gospel is a luminous ball of light compared to the dim shadows held up by naysayers and critics. When Satan came to Moses and demanded that Moses worship him Moses did not spend any time examining Satan's claims--he merely replied, "where is thy glory, that I should worship thee." The light of the Gospel overwhelmed Satan's dim glow.
The whole talk of inoculation is silly. Exposure to nonsense does not help you. The bright light of the Gospel makes it easy to see and discern things. I can judge Joseph Smith by his fruits (which are enormous). People need more dedication to the Iron Rod.
Well said.
Hypothetically, if the church was false and man made, what test could be applied to detect this?
Test the principles and life lessons in the Book of Mormon. Build a relationship with the Savior that leads to trusting Him. See if it works.
@@CwicShow thanks for your reply. Muslims who have a high degree of confidence in their faith, claim that it's by living according to the principles that one becomes convinced. I'm more interested in how they decided to try it out at all. Its observed in any religion that participations precedes convincedness aka having a testimony. Is there a way to know the truth of the church without faith? Is there a method that is exclusive to our church? Thanks to you and anybody else kind enough to share🙏
The philosophical razors (Occam's, Hanlon's, etc...) and Bayesian probability/inference are a pretty good place to start. Humans have sense, reason, and intellect. If God exists, those attributes came from him and are intended to be used. If God doesn't exist, use them anyway. Either way, examine every angle and think for yourself.
@@flexiblethinker6641 I'm sure they do. How would you describe faith?
You can't test it. Religion is an I visible product, have to die to see if you got the right one
My crisis has lead me to ask the question: who do I have more faith in, the church or the Savior? I’d love to get feedback on this question not necessarily an answer but what you think about the approach.
To me they are separate but linked. But I agree, my highest faith is with the Savior. But, we need the Church, we need the priesthood, we need the ordinances, we need the prophet, and we need the opportunity to serve and contribute to the gospel's growth. That only happens with the Church. No man is an eternal island! Growth and fulfillment comes with others.
But my relationship with the Savior is #1, above all. And in many ways, my family is next, then the Church. But for me, I wouldn't give up any of them.
@@CwicShow I love it!!! Thanks for the response and I can relate with the idea that man is not an island and we need a community.
@@CwicShow that was an excellent answer.
Thank you for your comment . Having faith in christ is always the best way. But here is some questions I ask people who are having a faith crisis. Why do you think you are here on this spinning blue planet? Where do you you came from.? Can you develop faith if you new everything and if you new everything you would be a God. You are not a God but nearther is a baby an adult. You see we all have our weaknesses. It is mans weaknesses that keep us from God. Know and remember this that the essence of life is growth and to become and to overcome. We are real children of real Heavenly parents. We are more than a physical body. Prophets have to grow up in faith understanding and development to. Remember again that the purposes or essence of life is growth and to become and to overcome.
I have always taught my children to build their faith & testimony on Christ - not the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, but it is full of & run by imperfect humans who can let you down. I told them that they are also imperfect people who will let others down at times. Only Christ is perfect & only He can save us.
For Dan: Who defines God's view/rules? The Church has redirected Gods authority to 15 incredibly falible men. It appears that they define the rules and those rules can and do change nearly every conference or handbook update.
Prophets and apostles do. They are led by Christ through the Holy Spirit. It's called ongoing revelation. The only members who don't seem to get this are the spiritually immature and, as President Nelson said, the lazy learners.
@@jaredshipp9207 so the Holy Spirit told GBH that the word Mormon should be used for a church campaign, and then the same Holy Spirit told RMN that God was offended and it was a great victory for Satan to use the word Mormon? There’s no way that RMN is just a petty man with a God complex?
Bad apologists, more commonly known as Mormon apologists, love to ignore contradicting revelation by calling it continuing revelation.
I love your personal attack btw. When members go around insulting people using their prophet’s words, it’s a sure sign that their religion isn’t about God but about themselves. Go read the Gospel Topics Essays, follow all the footnotes, then reconsider your definition of continuing revelation.
@@thephil8696 It's obvious a big part of President Hinckley's mission as the president was bringing the Church out of obscurity. The world has always known us as "the Mormons," though not by our initial choice. Under President Nelson, the mission is clearly to emphasize that it's Christ's Church. And yes, if people miss that central fact, it is a victory for the adversary. The last thing Satan wants is for people to come to the realization that only here will they find Christ's true Church that He recognizes as His own. The only one with the necessary Priesthood authority for saving ordinances. And if the name issue is your hang up, well, talk about petty. You're just looking for reasons to complain.
Moreover, I always wonder why people like yourself - who claim to be so convinced that the Church is false - even bother with it. Why hang around taking pot shots? This, of course, is a rhetorical question because we already know the answer. As Elder Maxwell once said, "If the Church were not true, our enemies would be bored rather than threatened, and acquiescent rather than anxious. Hell is moved only when things move heaveward." People like yourself "doth protest too much." Enjoy eating husks.
@@jaredshipp9207 Lol. So much for knowing your own history. Nelson tried to kill "Mormon" 31 years ago and got shut down by GBH. Russel stewed for 28 years waiting for GBH and TSM to die so he could push his own agenda. Its funny to see you justify victories for Satan when it comes to a popularity contest. In his own talk, Nelson says the use of Mormon was not justified for branding. Even more, Nelson goes so far as to say God is offended by it. God chooses to be offended by a word. Totally mature. The name issue is just one example among hundred where the "prophets" produce conflicting "revelations". I chose this one just because it's relatively recent, but we can start in the 1800s, or whenever, if you'd rather.
Again with conflicting statements. Maxwell's statement vs J. Reuben Clark's: 'If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed." Mormons love to have their cake and eat it too. There are GBH quotes to this effect too.
Now why do I engage on this? Because the truth matters, and I want to reduce unnecessary suffering. The fact is Mormonism was founded, not on a sandy foundation, but on a rotten foundation. Your founding "Prophet" was a lying, adulterous sexual predator. He and his god are not worth praising or worshipping. Mormonism justifies and perpetuated lying and abuse. Humans deserve better than what Mormonism offers. You deserve better.
@@thephil8696 Spare me your false motives. You're simply an apostate. And, as Joseph Smith said, once you leave neutral ground, you never can get back on it. People like yourself "leave the Church but can't leave it alone," as Elder Maxwell said, because having made the choices you have, you're now under the influence of the adversary.
"Wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center." - 1 Nephi 16:2
"For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good." - 2 Nephi 28:20
I hope you find your way back. But there's a lot of pride and self-satisfaction you need to let go of.
I know that I know the gospel is true.
Anybody who writes in a journal knows how your perspective over time, not your story, changes.
It is such a natural process to go through a crisis of faith. Having come out of the other side, I can assure you, your testimony strengthens, becomes deeper, or at least mine did. Two of my friends never came out the other side, they gave up and left the church. I think it's vital to understand these moments are actually faith promoting if we can cling to the iron rod through it. I still have hope for my friends.
I didn't come back because I believe it's not true. To each their own
One can cling to the iron rod all they want. But if the truth claims set forth by the church can’t be proven or disproven, where does that leave us? And if our feelings are not a good source of confirming truth, then we are in for a world of hurt. That’s why it’s a crisis, it’s literally an unraveling of one’s identity because we get much of our identity from the various aspects of the church.
Perhaps I missed this, but what book did Nathaniel Givens write with his father? I looked on Amazon, but came up dry. Thank you.
They wrote a book on "Faith" but it is not due out until later this year.
Greg, with all do respect It sounds as if this group is trying to out-think the room. The BOM and revelation have ALL the answers. We don't need to come up with clever tactics about how to teach in and out of our home. We need greater obedience, trust, and reliance on the HG to give us what we need in the very moments it's required. More temple attendance, more prayer time, more obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel is the ONLY fix.
That’s why the suggestions the group made stems from everything you mentioned.
This method works for the Jehovah's Witnesses too. The more they participate in their faith promoting actions the more likely they are to remain convinced and active
@@flexiblethinker6641 yes you're probably correct
Yeah man
Faith a dynamic process called growth. Into eternities we will be everlasting experience and responsibilities. Fortunately we have eternal companions of a Wife, Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. Not to mention our families who are genetic or Church Family relationships. Strength in exponential numbers of Spirit Brings.
Greg mentioned proof and the scientific method. Very true. The interesting difference, though, is that the proof is strictly individual. It cannot be shared in any meaningful way with others, it only serves to prove it to you. The same is true of love. Nobody can prove that they love somebody, or that somebody loves them, because a cynic will reduce all evidences of love (marriage, physical affection, etc.) to either societal norms or biological imperatives. Only you can accept proof from another as satisfactory evidence of their love for you, and only they can accept proof from you as satisfactory evidence of your love for them. The same is true with the existence of God, the reality of Jesus Christ, the Restoration, etc. You can't prove it to anyone else and they can't prove it to you, but God can prove it to you and you can prove your faithfulness to Him. God is Love, after all.
Exactly right! Thank you!
“My God; my God, why hast thou forsaken me?!”
Even Jesus went through a crisis of faith.
It’s part of this mortal experience.
We need to not freak out about it.
Just handle yours the way Jesus handled His.
I love your wisdom and comment.
Oh I think in Christ situation. God our Heavenly Father let Christ experience the full weight of his responsibility of who he was as the only begotten of the Father.
Excellent presentations!!!!
Thank you kindly!
I really enjoyed this discussion!❤️
Glad to hear!
2 Nephi 28:11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way. They have become corrupted because of pride.
2 Nephi 28:12 And because of false teachers and false doctrines, their churches have become corrupted and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.
2 Nephi 28:13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing. And they persecute the meek and the poor in heart because in their pride they are puffed up.
2 Nephi 28:14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride and wickedness and abominations and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few which are the humble followers of Christ. Nevertheless they are led that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.
Faith and what LDS members know at 8:47. Nate claims if you ask people they have no idea what they know. They had better know, since their testimony is key to our religion and faith.
Feels patriarchal....4 guys.... talking up JS....10 minutes in.... have to bail.
Haha, "patriarchal"? Right. Anything from a dude should be discounted as we all know.
Get a grip . You need men for everything : it’s how you make babies . Maybe you should become an atheist.
Mormonism works well for some people, but most don't want or need it. My wife is much happier outside the LDS faith. Is the faith crises thing something new in the LDS church? Has questioning and membership exits been increasing. Growing up nobody spoke about a faith crises
There have always been people who have lost their faith, whether in the LDS Church or others. Those who have left the LDS Church, in a desire to feel justified, like to claim that more members are leaving now than ever. They have nothing to back that up. It's simply something they've heard and like to repeat. And even if that were true, it's not like the separation between the wheat and the tares hasn't been prophesied.
Those who have left also claim they don't need the faith and are much happier. That tells me they never really understood the Gospel/Church to begin with. If the Church and Restored Gospel is what it claims - and it is - without them a person will eventually inherit general salvation. But they will be giving up exaltation (the real reason we are here in this life) and their family lasting into eternity. Whether they realize it or not, they are giving up the most God has to offer for something much less. And perhaps some want that. Or think they do anyway. Those who never have been introduced to the Restored Gospel will have much more mercy than those who had it and left it.
This discussion thoroughly confuses personal maturation with determining what worldview is most correct. It's possible to mature within a false worldview or to remain dogmatic in a true one.
At 1:18:15. Research on Millennials and Gen-Z shows some differences from previous generations. The rise of technology such as internet and smart phones means an exposure to a lot of worldly ideas as Jeffrey points out. However research also shows that Gen-Z and millennials do not like to be told they are wrong about LGBTQ issues, transgender surgery, same-sex attraction, gay marriage etc. They also do not being told their LGBTQ friends or relatives are wrong. Same with their own transgressions. If a bishop calls them out on porn, fornication, word of wisdom issues or others, they don't like to be challenged on beliefs and practices. So they leave the church.
I think you should change the name of your UA-cam Chanel to something that actually describes the content. What does Cwic even mean?
Cwic is an Old English word that mean, "Intelligent", "Alive"
@@CwicShow Good to know! I am likely the only person in Nova Scotia, Canada that knows that!
Really Really enjoyed this. I'm so glad I came across all the anti stuff before I joined the church. And also very glad I found such places as Fairmormon, now Fairlds I think.
I also loved how you talked about conversion. The common denominator that I observe in stories of falling away is that they don't talk about their relationship with deity. Which I always wonder about. 🤔
@@frazer9 I don’t very often engage in these discussions.
But yes I thoroughly investigated into the anti stuff. And at the end of the day, people can choose . Because it is how people choose to interpret those “historical facts” .
I am still very open to looking at just about everything.
But I KNOW what Jesus has done in my life. And how I have changed. And that’s the fact that I know.
Kind regards to you.
As a long-time Gospel Doctrine teacher in my ward, I feel it is critical that we broach difficult topics in class. Talk about it in a church, on a Sunday, surrounded by your ward family. Otherwise, you'll hear it when you're alone, not surrounded by the Spirit. I will tell you that I was called into the Bishop's office TWICE for teaching false doctrine (it was true history, not false...). This is the basis of the "inoculation theory" your guests spoke of. I will always be grateful for the Seminary and Institute teachers I had that were open to Apologetics and difficult topics.
P.S. The winner for this video is Nate. Because, 1. has the same name as me 2. is displaying the White Tree of Gondor. 😅
I agree Nathan. I "pepper in" some apologetics with my comments at church and find that a lot of people are intrigued to learn more and dig deeper. However thats not always the case with some members unfortunately. Some are easily triggered to think that deeper discussion is verboten.
I think its key to point out how fortunate we are are to have the gospel and how rare our doctrines are in comparison to the "mainstream" Christian world and how much evidence has emerged to back it up. Its the greatest and most important knowledge we can possess.
If people give their study some patience and dig deeper, its mind blowing how much information backs the restored church. The anti rhetoric fails laughably in comparison.
I've seen what you're talking about but there are two problems with that, I think that's more like something for Institute. There's some good direction in the cirriculum for discussion that is meant to strengthen and feel the Spirit. When you get into the weeds, you may find out that the topic such as means for translation may have swung too hard one way and then you find out there were a couple of methods involved.
49:51 kind of like the church is true or it's a fraud? That kind of binary thinking?
Why do you think the prophets and apostles use this binary language so much? Has their faith not matured yet?
Great conversation. I think knowledge is also direct manifestation. We have journals of the early members, showing, angelic visits, dead family and even being visited by the Savior. There are multiple records of these experiences. I think they still happen but it's not at the forefront because it's an individual thing unless it was meant for the church.
You should interview Hannah Stoddard from the Joseph Smith Foundation on faith crisis, they have a DVD/book on that.
Hannah Stoddard denies all the problems rather than confronting them.
Hannah is nuts.
What does she say that is nuts?
I think it comes down to the parents. If the parents live in and love Babylon but still take their kids to church they lose their kids. In the BOM the Anti Nephi Lehi's kids obeyed Helaman's (prophet) every command with exactness since their mothers KNEW. Many of the Nephite kids were wrapped up with Nehors and Kingmen. It comes down to the home and parents. Moroni warned us that when we see the gifts of the spirit disappear and secret combinations among us to recognize our dire situation. If the parents do not KNOW or Hear Him how can we expect the youth to be a peculiar people when they do not see examples in the home. I think our kids are at risk from the great loss of faith of the preceding generation. Money, Position, Popularity, Politics (both sides) have become this generations god and the kids suffer for it.
I would say yes and no. This is obviously the first step. But kids become adults and they have their own agency. When someone falls into a crisis, they need tools and support to move through it. This isn't easy. I'm sure Lehi and Sariah did all they could.
@@CwicShow Yes I agree with you fully. Once adults we need to reach out and welcome them back. President Nelson's Christmas message this morning fully caught that I think. Thanks for your discussions. Yes once grown they of course have agency and we can search for the lost sheep. My concern is when we in the church create lost sheep. The more we create the harder it is to go out and help them. I also wanted to mention BYU and religion teachers in the church. Joseph Smith said where geographical locations were for BOM. Like Manti, Hill Cumorah, Zarahemla and Zelph. Yet BYU folks teach Mexico online and so I assume in class too. I live in Mexico and have visited various sites in the Yucatan. Not BOM in any way. So if your faith is built on ruins in Mexico and then DNA and Archeology say no then people loose faith. Another online Seminary/institute teacher who has a huge following really put down Cap Moroni in favor of Pahoran. He went on to extol Romney. Well these false teachings may be caught by some but they certainly affect others. Love your work on BYU and CRT, I think the false teachings in the Religion dept may be the most damaging.
Out of all the fantastic interviews you've had over the years, this is the most poignant, comprehensive and necessary discussion we need to be having in the Church. Well done.
Thank you. I thought about this a lot and who I needed on this episode.
Thank you for this! There was a lot of wisdom in this discussion. These brethren were able to articulate concepts I've thought about a lot and discovered throughout my own faith growth/maturation and experience as I've navigated post-mission life the last 10+ years.
Great guests. I could listen to them for hours.
Thanks for putting the panel together. I think it’s a step in the right direction in addressing what I believe is the biggest thing to have hit the church since the restoration.
That being said, there was quite a bit of gaslighting throughout, but not sure the panel even realized they were doing it.
There are some major truth claims that are causing the church some difficulty.
One of the other challenges is there really is only one answer one can come to if one is going to remain faithful in the church… Namely one must receive a confirming witness that it is “true“.
And the reason for this is for those who grew up in the church, we’ve been taught since we were little that those words are the most important thing, “the church is true“
Everything else is secondary to that chief mission… Discovering the truthfulness of the church
But what happens if one starts to explore other potential outcomes?
What if one steps outside of the culture and the normal thought processes and starts to determine that there are other modes of thinking, other ways of interpreting one’s feelings, etc.
Once I finally allowed myself to actually say the words “the church might not be true“ everything opened up for me, the guilt started to go away, the shame started to go away.
And I can imagine some of you who are reading this comment are saying wow this guy is crazy for thinking that the church might not be true… Believe me I know that kind of thinking because I was there. This is again more evidence of just how intense it is in the church that all must come to the conclusion that it is true or else something is definitely wrong with your situation.
If you haven’t come to the conclusion that the church is true, you need to figure out how to get there...wow that’s a lot of pressure.
The church is a high demand religion, there’s no doubt about it. And with the stakes being so high, if it in fact is not true, I don’t think one should play mental gymnastics to try to somehow circle back to believing that it is
For some people, they simply discover that it is not what it claims to be and they move on and they’ve discovered that truth for them self and they are free now to move about and discover what their life is going to look like going forward.
There was no gaslighting. To be gaslighting, you have to know you're doing it. "Truth claims" are important, but history or the treatment of history in any endeavor of thought or principle, is dicey.
"Guilt and shame" are very common words hurled at church experience today. I find them hallow. Guilt and shame are a part of our entire lives and relationships. Not that they should ever be inflicted, but once you believe in goodness, inside or outside of the Church, when you don't live up to that or you make a mistake, you may feel guilt or shame. That is simply a signal telling you to change or correct something.
@@CwicShow As always, I appreciate your response and the ability to dive into tough topics. I'll agree that gaslighting typically is something more abusive in nature.
That being said, there were some things mentioned that perhaps are quasi-gaslighting. Around the 20:00 mark, Nate talks about growing up in a household where anti-mormon literature was prevelent and there was no discussion about whether this was a typical thing most mormon households have. Without seeing the statistics, I would venture to guess most LDS households do not, in fact, have anti-mormon literature as did Nate's home. So if I'm listening to your conversation with Nate, I could begin to think "well it happened to Nate so maybe I've been making a fuss over nothing". Do you see how that can be quasi gaslighting? It's to take an uncommon thing and make it seem like a common ocurrance. And another interesting note is we don't know what "anti-mormon" literature is in Nate's home. It's commonly known now that most anti-mormon stuff from the 60's, 70s, etc was in fact true history and the church is openly confirming it and even including it on the church website now.
And again at 21:15, Nate talks about some conspiracy theory of the Wash DC temple and upside down pentagrams. This seems like a dodge because in all my research and going down the rabbit hole of church history, I've not been concerned about this type of thing. And I would suspect most who are going through or who have gone through a faith crisis really don't care about things like this.
It's simple. Testimonies are built upon information, actions and experience. Information typically comes first, like teachings by a parent, in church, gen. conference, etc. I would say the gospel topics essays cover what are the pillars of information upon which people develop their testimonies and come to believe the church is true.
People going through a faith crisis have come upon true information(step 1) that is contrary to what they were taught and upon which they built their testimony. It's not any more complicated than that but by listening to the three guests, am I being led to believe that defining a faith crisis is more complicated than it really has to be?
I think the conversation would have been much more insightful if you would have perhaps had at least one guest who had gone through a crisis and did not return to the church. There are those who have decided to leave and can still have a respecful conversation, and for purposes of your audience, keep it a safe space while still sharing their experience.
While I can appreciate Dan mentioning that he went through a crisis, we really don't know what it was really about. And I think there was a quasi gaslight at 41:33 where Dan suggested peopel are going through a "developmental transistion". That sounds like another dodge at something that's really quite simple to identify.
The reality is most never come back from a crisis, but that' doesn't mean that they are not happy in life and thriving. It doesn't happen in a day and it is definitely a process, but for many, including me, stepping away from the church has allowed growth in ways I never anticipated. I still cherish many memories, the mission, etc. but there is something special about moving forward in life with a new set of eyes, a new way to process information. Sorry for the long post but thought someone might need to hear this.
This is a wonderful interview and much needed. Hannah Stoddard from The Joseph Smith Foundation as written a few books on Faith Crisis in the Church which are great resources also. Reading the scriptures and prayer are imperative.
Good Stuff
Thanks Chris!
Sometimes cats just happen.
We are suppose to become as a little child ! He needs to go back to his 12 year old self!
Whenever I see someone go out of their way to differentiate between the Gospel and the Church, or between the Lord and His prophets and apostles for that matter, alarm bells quickly go off. The ones I see doing that most often are those who are out of step with the doctrine of the Church on many things, even to the point where they already have one foot out the door. Whatever their stumbling block is, they convince themselves they can be faithful to Christ or His Gospel while not following the Brethren He has called to lead the Church.
Excellent comments. My experience has been the same, and politics are usually at the root of it. Both sides of the political spectrum are taking a "cafeteria" approach to the counsel given by the 1st Presidency.
@@nathangreer8219 Agreed. For the longest time we saw this mainly from liberal/progressive members for the usual reasons, i.e. their hang ups with plural marriage, race and the priesthood, feminism, LGBTQ issues, etc. But it seems we are seeing it now from some more conservative members regarding their hang ups with everything from the Covid issue to the current leadership not echoing some past leader, not following their interpretation of scripture close enough, etc.
To be fair, the church and the gospel *are* two separate things. And it’s probably wise to acknowledge that, since the imperfections of the organization of the church can be a stumbling block to faith if it’s equated with the gospel. (Which is perfect)
The gospel is light and truth and eternal principles. It is pure and eternal, in a way that the church (as its mortal vessel) has yet to be. There is a difference.
Second- I would hope we differentiate God from the prophet. One we directly worship and one we follow to Him. It is not the same thing.
And I would add that blind obedience is not a principle of the gospel. Purposeful obedience, spurred on by spiritual confirmation, is.
We are obligated to follow the prophet when the spirit ratifies his words as those given by the Lord. In those instances it is as if we are hearing the voice of the Lord Himself, and you’d better believe I’m following that!
But there are times when he speaks as a man (as Joseph & Brigham often pointed out) and in those times we can be given different directives for ourselves and circumstances. As long as those directives don’t go against eternal truth and doctrine, the Lord can do that. And sometimes He does.
I think most people who talk about following Christ, if it comes to choice between personal direction from Him and something the prophet has said broadly, fall into this category of thinking. Which I believe is doctrinally sound.
Following the prophet is all about following God better. We follow him *as leads us to Christ.* And we follow his counsel as it comes from Father.
We don’t follow him to follow him…. “Follow
the prophet” is not a principle of eternity. Follow Christ is the principle, and the prophet can help us do that. The existence of a prophet (and following him) is always linked to Christ. None of it has to do with him as a man. It’s all about God. The prophet is simply a tool He uses to pull peoples focus back to Him.
And so it’s not that hard to see why, in a situation when the prophet is not speaking as a divine vessel but as a mortal man (as the Lord allows him to do) that it would be fine for us to then follow personal revelation we receive for our circumstances. IF for some reason it happens to be different from the general counsel. (Which I would say happens *rarely.* As the prophet, even as a mortal, is a wise and principled man)
But let’s say that does happen. Since personal revelation is directly from God Himself, and we have spiritual stewardship over our own lives and families, that direction we receive would hold the higher authority in that specific situation. And there is nothing wrong in following it.
Now, if the prophet’s directive has something to do with an eternal law or principle, God will not tell you to do something that goes against that. That can be a pretty good litmus test for figuring out if your personal revelation is true.
So when I say it’s ok to follow personal revelation, even if it clashes with the mortal opinions of our leaders, I’m not talking about people like…. those who think that gay marriage should be allowed in the temple, and so they ignore our doctrine of marriage and the prophet’s statements on it. (For example)
In that case, even if his commentary was coming from himself as a mortal man he is *clearly* in line with doctrine. God isn’t going to give you revelation against that.
But in the case of the “hot topic” at hand (which has nothing to do with anything spiritual in nature or any enteral law/principle) I think God is well within His rights to direct individuals in whatever way He wills.
I personally know people on both “sides” of the aisle when it comes to this. All people of faith who have sought God’s will on this matter.
There are those who have received revelation that they should follow the prophet’s directive as it was given and partake, and there are also those who have prayed and been told multiple times that it’s not for them. I trust that God has His reasons for that, and for me it’s not an issue to my faith. I love and sustain the prophet the same. Any urging He gives me I will take humbly to the Lord, ready to follow whatever direction is given. But I think it is important that we take it to the Lord…
Honestly- this is why being in tune with the spirit and seeking confirmation are so important. It’s a part of our doctrine many of us have kind of forgotten about, as we have become spiritually lazy and overly reliant on our leaders to do the work of discernment for us.
We need to be able to recognize when the prophet is speaking the words of the Lord- so that we can follow them without hesitation. But we also need to be able to recognize when he is not, so we can tune into the Spirit for direction on the matter ourselves. Often He will confirm that the general direction is right for us. Other times He may tweak things a bit. Both are fine, if they come from the Lord. This can be a hard balancing act to master, but it’s important that we do.
@UC5IMuIc922hB1XI2ugJ7HWg As President Oaks said in a recent conference regarding revelation, "We cannot communicate reliably through the direct personal line if we are disobedient to or out of harmony with the priesthood line." I see a lot of members (and I use that term loosely in their case) online, generally from the more liberal side of things, often claiming their own "personal revelation," "personal authority," "lived experience," etc. on issues where they are clearly and unequivocally not in step with Church doctrine.
Since you mentioned "the jab," more recently I've noticed members on the more conservative side of things who have parted ways with the advice from the Church to get the vaccine. One one hand, sure, getting or not getting a particular shot may not be in the same category as say, following the doctrine of the family. However, on the other hand, I've found it ironic that many of these more conservative members (who often quote) past prophets like President Benson forget that he said a prophet doesn't necessarily have to say, "Thus sayeth the Lord." For those who have decided they will not follow the counsel in this case, including those claiming personal revelation in doing so, I wonder how many of them will find themselves doing the same thing with other issues in the future? It can be a slippery slope, especially for the spiritually immature.