Thomas Jefferson’s Crazy Plan For 10 New US States
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- Опубліковано 27 чер 2024
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▶ In this video I talk about Thomas Jefferson's proposal for the organization of newly acquired territory in the United States during the late 18th century. Jefferson proposed dividing the territory into 10 states, which would become part of the country's westward expansion. His plan aimed to prevent the existing 13 colonies from expanding further and to create a larger Union of self-governing states. The proposed names for these states had classical and historical connections, and some of them are similar to current US state names. Ultimately, the Northwest Ordinance reduced the number of new states to 3 or 5 due to various factors, including criticism by figures like George Washington and James Monroe. The plan to create more states, as suggested by some maps, remains speculative. Jefferson's proposal represents an interesting historical perspective on the early territorial organization of the United States.
▶ TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Intro
00:47 Thomas Jefferson's Role In The Plan
01:47 US Annexation & Organization Of The Midwest / Northwest Territories
03:08 The Need For An Ordenance
05:23 1783 Independence Map Of The United States
06:29 Thomas Jefferson's Plan
07:43 The 10 Planned States
08:37 Criteria For The Size & Location Of The New States
09:06 States' Name Choices & Etymologies
11:09 Implementation Of The NorthWest Ordenance
11:57 Causes Of Failure
12:44 Expanding The Plan To The South: 16 New States
14:52 Summary
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Pelisipia comes from Pellissippi, a name given to the Ohio river, and then to the Clinch river.
It derives from "Mosopeleacipi", meaning "river of the Mosopelea". Mosopelea is the name of an Amerindian tribe who historically lived near the upper Ohio River.
source: "The Winding River Home: Pellissippi State researches the meaning of ‘Pellissippi’."
Came here to say the same thing.
ohh so more s’s and p’s again
@@texasyojimboyeah.....me, too... 🙃😂
And as others have already noted, the Assenissippi River is the Rock River in Illinois.
The proposed name for Eastern Ohio didn't completely die. Marietta, the first permanent settlement in Ohio is in the area Jefferson had laid out to be named Washington. It is in Washington County.
Wow and I thought our current map had too many straight lines . His proposal is somehow 10x worse.
But seriously, those straight lines on US map look crap especially Colorado and Wyoming. On what basis did they divide the state?
@@pradhyunmudaliar6606lines of latitude and longitude
@@minelayer26 Oh, that makes sense.
What’s the beef with straight lines, and why is important if they do, or don’t look “pretty” on a map? How is that a priority?
And yet everyone here is allowed vote
10:34 Saratoga, New York has entered the chat... right where the Mohawk Nation called home.
Saratoga is probably a reference to the Revolutionary War Battle in upstate New York in 1777. It is arguably the single most important victory for the American side, as it convinced France the Americans could realistically the war, and resulted in the French formally joining the war on the American side.
I'm not a fan of straight lines for borders, I prefer it when the border corresponds to real features in nature. therefore, maps are more informative because such a border shows the importance of a river or mountain for a nearby town or city.
It's also much smarter to build with the environment for ease of transportation, it would have been so smoked if this went through 😂
Same
Yeah, when those aren't available ie: Canada / America west of the lakes, the coordinates don't move ; I'm aware of some borders with land on both sides of a river, because the river was once the boundary and shuffled a little in migrating.
It's easier to draw a border by things like rivers or mountains or some other geological feature that connects places together,Some us states,african and asian countries should probably be reconfigured to account for that cause those old colonial borders don't make sense.
@@straightrippnable706An example of countries with territory on two sides of a river used for a border are Mexico and Canada, as the Rio Grande has shifted a fair amount in the past ~170 years or however long.
Saratoga,NY? Battle of Saratoga 1777? I don’t think there were any Mohawks in California, I’m sure NY was first.
Saratoga Spring NY existed in 1776, and it was a settlement before that. Saratoga CA came decades later.
Also the site of the Battle of Saratoga, arguably the most important victory for the Americans in the revolution.
Yeah, I posted earlier, Saratoga Springs was just that a "spring", no municipality or anything in 1777
Fun fact: There are a lot of airports in different countries named after leaders.
Fun fact: Donald Trump thought there were airports during the revolutionary war.
@@ruffkuntry2574Plot twist: That was actually sleepy Joe LOL 😂
@@Jay_0746that sounds more like it.
@@Jay_0746 You would think so with his history of gaffes. Yet, this came out of the man who has a hard time with the word ‘yesterday’ LOL
I think everyone knows most airports in the Us are named after presidents
My guess is that Pelisipia has the same origin as "Pellisippi", an old name for the Clinch River (a river in SW Virginia and Tennessee). Even though Pelisipia would be more like modern eastern Kentucky, it's still close enough to the Clinch River where the name would kind of make sense.
A number of things in East Tennessee are called "Pellisippi", for example Pellissippi Community College and Pellissippi Parkway (another name for Interstate Highway 140) in Knoxville.
According to Google "Pelisipi" is Cherokee for "the wandering waters", which is a name that could be applied to really any river, but specifically was applied to the Clinch.
Wikipedia also says that the name "Pellissippi" was also given to the Ohio River. Which makes a lot more sense.
So 99 percent sure "Pelisipia" is just a reference to the Ohio River, or at least some river in the area.
as an allohistory buff, Jefferson's state proposals are among of my favorite suggestions and i'm hoping to eventually repurpose at least their names for one of my projects set in an alternate timeline (while it was originally very parallel to actual history, i eventually decided that i want to make the alternate US--which itself might be the _Unified_ States instead of the _United_ States--a case of "looks the same if you squint at it" with recognizably similar states but slightly subtle border differences, at least for the earliest of them, as well as ideally sharing no names with the actual states through various means, such as it being entirely possible that "New York" is "New Jork", pronounced the same, because of alternate linguistics where that type of J is never replaced by Y in English)
I did the same thing, though not with all the names. I kept Sylvania. Illinoia, Michigania, Saratoga, and Washington, corrected the obvious misspelling Cheronesus as Chersonesia, and shifted Polypotamia to Transpotamia. Also Charlotiana, Vandalia, Transylvania and Watauga made it as states
I had a quite similar idea for my version of the USA, where borders would be almost the same, but changed in minor ways so they'd look more natural than the current ones, and where state names would be somehow different yet similar, and despite reading a lot of proposed countries and states I've never heard about Jefferson's proposals, but they seem so interesting and gave me a few ideas, like to give the upper peninsula of Michigan to some other state or how to change the borders of the southern states
Thomas Jefferson may have been good at alot of things, but drawing state borders wasn't one of them. A good example is he completely seemed to neglect the importance of access to the sea and navigable rivers in favor of having neat lines. That alone is such a big deal when it comes to just about every part of economic activity, both now and when he drew that map. And he should have known that - Jefferson was big on society being agrarian. Without good transport, how do you get the products of your farm to markets in cities? Or, if you think there shouldn't be cities, transport the products of your farm to other farms? After all, you aren't going to be growing tobacco in Michigan.
West of the Mississippi River the states were organized a little more Jeffersonian. Except for Texas and California, you'll see states are much boxier, and stacked on top of each other. States in a region either have similar degrees of latitude, or similar degrees of longitude, making them much more equal.
*west of the Mississippi
@@fletchbg Thank you. I made a typo. 😄
5:56 The "vast French Louisiana Territory", was, at this time (1783), still Spanish. It had been since 1763, and would be until Napoleon forced Spain to hand it back over to France in 1801 (as the map at 6:32 shows)
13:31 Using the Falls of the Ohio as the basis of a north-south boundary was a stupid idea even then, as Louisville had already been established at the Falls around a decade before and was already a rapidly growing city. This would have resulted in one of the then-largest cities in the west to be immediately split, instead of using something that created borders empty areas and not immediately cut through settled land. But what really rendered things moot for this plan south of the Ohio River is that Kentucky was already well on its way to statehood (1792; and as the settlers there saw themselves as a whole, they would not want to be divided that late in the process), and Tennessee not too far behind (1796) - and that Georgia was hugely reluctant to give up its western lands all the way until 1802, when a land fraud scandal forced them to.
They would've easily and predictably "dodged" around Louisville by rerouting the border on the Kentucky side to the Ohio River west of town, then down the river to the Salt River, then upstream on the Salt back to the original meridian of the falls.
There are plenty of examples of using nearby rivers when a particular straight line border creates an inconvenience, such as Indiana's western border being rerouted down the Wabash.
But yes the reality that Kentucky wouldve been split up definitely wouldve put the brakes on using the meridian of the Falls of the Ohio south of the river. It wouldve been fine on the north side though
I remember how to spell "Mississippi" from a song on a children's show almost 40 years ago! 😂 MIS-SIS-SIPPI
Melodic methods to remember the spelling are definitely the best ones:
em eye - es es eye - es es eye - pee pee eye
As a child, I learned to spell it as MISS - IS - SIPPI 🙂
I think our country's history would've turned out a lot differently with those extra states.
Don’t know if it helps for Pelisipia. A pelisse used to be a fur coat made of beaver which were hunted in great lakes region.
If I recall correctly, the reason Michigan has the upper peninsula is because they were asked to cede part of their territory to Ohio. This was the so-called Toledo strip. Actually, the U.P. should be part of Wisconsin but, as I said, it was given to Michigan in exchange for a relatively small strip of land so Ohio could own(?) Toledo.
That's true.
Strangely enough, until Indiana became a state, the upper peninsula was split 3 ways with the Illinois territory getting the western third, the Indiana territory the middle, and the Michigan territory got the eastern part.
That is correct. The History Guy channel has a good video on the Toledo strip and how its dispute almost led to a war.
Michigan didn't give up any territory. It was already a part of Ohio. They just gave up the misguided claim on it.
@@timmmahhhh I remember watching that show.
@@katieandkevinsears7724 I'm not going to argue with you. I'm no expert but, I do know that the situation I described occurred after the Michigan territory had been organized. That's why Ohio had to petition Congress to gain possession of the Toledo strip.
Also there is a Saratoga Springs in New York. You mentioned a Saratoga in CA.
Yes, I think this one is much better known. I've never heard of the city in California.
@@timmmahhhh it's part of the San Jose area, everyone here knows about it
Please consider doing a video on how Iceland and Greenland almost became part of the USA
Excellent vid as usual.
Bro, I was LITERALLY just researching this proposal by Jefferson earlier this week, and now BOOM! General Knowledge posts a video about that very same topic two days later! I’m still stunned that this even happened 🤯
Excellent work
6:30 - The reason the western borders were not defined is because the 'states' (at the time meaning nations, and prior to the Constitution, the fact of each newly free colonies situation), often had original charter claims to the lands between set degrees from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Those claims were not settled by the Articles of Confederation, as it had no power to settle such claims. These claims were still valid, to at least the Mississippi under the Treaty ending the war, and were often in conflict with rival claims. It wasn't until after the Constitution that west borders could legally be settled and mapped.
Just started watching this chanel, first i watched countries that could exist in the future then i watched part 2, then part 3 then other videos and i can't stop, great content keep it going❤😁
Great video.
And plus there’s a tiny bit of Minnesota that’s north of what we think of as the Canadian border.
Can you please make one video about Phantom Islands?
I would argue that Jefferson's plan was successful. The main purpose of his plan to make it clear to the states that the "unorganized territory" was not going to be up for grabs by the 13 states, rather it will be organized by its own residents/settlers. Having a specific plan helps support that argument, even if he likely never intended it to flesh out that way exactly. It was also important that he was from Virginia, which was the state that made the largest claim. Once VA agreed to give up their claims to the West, it made it impossible for the smaller states to hold on to theirs, especially since those states didn't border the territory like VA did.
Can you make a series of videos about means of transportation?
The land over the mountains being “mostly undisturbed” and “just empty territory ripe for the taking” (2:39) probably would have been news to the Native peoples (2:44) who lived there. It’s an unfortunately common misconception that stems from how the history of Manifest Destiny is uncritically taught.
As many have pointed out here, the state of Michigan did not include the upper peninsula originally. After the "Toledo War" between Michigan and Ohio, the Toledo Strip was given to Ohio and the upper peninsula was then given to Michigan.
I always think of this as a consolation prize.
While there was no war to speak of, there was the Battle of Phillips Corner. I just searched but cannot find what I do remember as a newspaper report on that battle. In it the reporter stated that the Michigan Militia fought "like wolverines"; hence, Michigan state's nickname.
This may be my very own personal Mandela Effect.
Or not.
Just imagine an unrealistic (?) dystopian scenario in which the US collapses into a bunch independent states like the USSR did, and they start fighting each other based on those almost forgotten territorial claims.
As someone from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan… I wish Jefferson’s plan would have gone through!!
Also, Assenisipia comes from the Assenisipi River, today known as the Rock River, which runs through Rockford, IL.
The amount of 4 corner monuments we'd need if this plan went through.
Why is the UP of Michigan's ear cut off in most of the maps?
Meanwhile I've recently found myself getting into the concept of new states, both from history still relevant in the modern times, and those without historic context. So to hear of these is certainly interesting. Never knew of this plan. It is interesting how history has managed to both not happen to our relief, as well as not happen and now with hindsight recognize that maybe we should have given certain states statehood when they originally proposed the concept.
I usually watch your all videos and I notice you made so much videos about USA can you please make some videos about Australia
Article 4 Section 3 of the constitution should be withdrawn to allow for new states to be made from the territory of existing states because there are parts of states that would function better with their own local government or cities that just dominate whole states like NYC, Seattle, Portland and Chicago, which leads to a pretty large imbalance of power. There are also large cultural differences between say, NYC and Binghampton, Chicago and Springfield, Boston and Worcester, the list goes on.
Only if the Congress agrees to i😂😂😂
Me: Enjoying the video!
15:41
Me: How. Dare. You.
hey can you please do a video on Scotland thanks from Scotland
Doesn't Pelisipia sound a lot like Greek, as in Peloponnesian War, between Athens and Sparta?
Ill-line-eye.
But using latitude degree designations and river/lake borders saved a bunch of surveying....not that it helped Michigan/Ohio border...which screwed Wisconsin.
If that bit of western Pennsylvania had become the state of Washington, my own home state, Washington, could have kept its original and much more euphonious name of Columbia.
Pellisippi means winding/crooked river or something similar in Cherokee and possibly in related languages. Only know this because several things locally are named that.
It appears that Jefferson's proposal would have added a lot more states south of the Mason-Dixon line. That could have resulted in a drastically different outcome to the Civil War, or possibly averted it altogether --- by making slavery last longer.
Depends, if slavery was banned in all states formed from the Northwest Territory, there'd have 10 free states and 6 slave states.
If slavery was only banned in states above the Mason Dixon line, it'd be 8 free, 8 slave.
In reality the region produced 5 free states and 4 slave states. So if it was 8 of each, California could've just entered as a free state without the fugitive slave act. I guess that might've postponed the Civil War a bit.
@@JamieElli My supposition was offered with the idea that slavery would have been banned north of the M-D Line.
@@arjaygeeThe last state that ban slavery was New Jersey.
@@arjaygee January 23rd 1866.
@@stevemathew5281 New Jersey officially banned slavery in 1804 ( although slowly with the _Act of Gradual Abolition in New Jersey in 1804_ ). They did not ratify Amendment XIII until 1866, but they were not the last to do so. Texas ratified in 1870, Delaware in 1901, Kentucky in 1976, and Mississippi in 1995 (but they didn't certify their ratification until 2013).
When the "Washington" name was proposed -- during the years mentioned -- George Washington was not yet the "First" President of the U.S. In fact, Jefferson was working with one of the other sixteen "Presidents of the United States in Congress Assembled".
So, I kinda doubt he proposed Washington's name because he would be the "First" President someday.
Jefferson's plan made far more sense with representation government that what happened.
The Gulf Coast parishes and counties from Lake Charles, thru New Orleans to Mobile have much more in common with each than they have with their inland respective states ...true in 1808 and true today.
Similarly for the Great Lakes counties and cities off Superior Huron Erie and Ontario. Attitudes as one goes down Lake Michigan differ greatly north to south, but align east to west.
What instead happened is duplications of the western portions of the original states, once colonies, that had an open frontier boundary.
But I thought Michigan got the upper peninsula in exchange for giving Ohio the Toledo strip!
I say this as a Michigander--sorry you don't like how the Upper Penninsula looks on a map but it is part of our State and we are thankful for it
Most of the boundaries in the US and Canada are bad. They run right through towns (Lloydminster) and divide metropolitan areas like Kansas City. It comes from the belief that you needed to have boundaries before people settled. But there were better and well defined boundaries there before, known to the people who lived there.
Kansas City wasnt divided, it grew on the Missouri side first, then a second city was founded on the Kansas side and they were lazy when they named it
We got the UP, here in Michigan, as a trade of Toledo to Ohio, to prevent a war. I don't think the UP is any more worse off, than it would be as part of Wisconsin.
NGL, I live in what would have been called Sylvania and I must say, I kind of wish that had become a state. I say because I live in a part of that, that happens be in Wisconsin but all the politics of Wisconsin are down in Madison and almost never help up here. Plus our TV, News, and some of our radio media is in Minnesota and we are left out a lot in regular Wisconsin information. Next we are still in Wisconsin and yet it feels like Minnesota too. We are like the land that's rejected by both states. But with the way that Sylvania is shaped, it feels like where I lived would be way better off in that state than what we are in now.
There's a bit of the legacy of the other plan left - where I live is part of Connecticut's Western Reserve - lots of place names mention it, Case Western Reserve University honours it, etc....
What if we limited states population? Once they reach a certain population they have to split?
African and Middle Eastern borders be like:
Imagine If we had 100 smaller states
Neat
Thomas the Tank Engine named after Thomas Jefferson?? I can't find anything supporting this story. Where does it come from?
10:39 why would you site Saratoga, CA and not Saratoga Springs, NY? It's a Mohawk word, and the Mohawk Indians lived in NY. Saratoga, CA was named after Saratoga Springs, NY because a mining company noticed the mineral deposits in the area were similar to those in Saratoga Springs, NY.
2:40- "Just empty territory ripe for the taking..." / "it was also home to several Native American cultures..." It's one or the other, both cannot be true.
Moving to Metropotamia rnnnn
As a Michigander, i think the UP is a fantastic part of our state and it stays
(1) As some others have stated, following natural borders (when they exist) is much better than man-made straight lines. (2) If Jefferson's original plan for more states had occurred, and thus the power of the original states in Congress (both houses, but especially the Senate) had been diluted, this would have had very large implications to later history (in particular the political fight around events such as the Missouri Compromise and, later, the American Civil War.) But, an alternate history channel can extrapolate (with some research) the new start year for the American Civil War, the victor(s), etc... in this scenario. :)
I would want to explore how these states would have approach the slavery issue.
JT was a genius those state look better than the real ones.
I like states being recognizable by their shapes. Too many states in the Western half of the country have the same shape.
The Thomas the Tank Engine addition is super random
Saratoga was considered the turning point of the American Revolutionary War and the victory there in upstate New York proved to the French & other Europeans that the Americans could win & supporting the Americans would not be a waste of money. So no Saratoga is not just some city in Cali. Also there are natural Springs near where the battle took place and it developed into an early American resort/spa area for the rich and claims to be the site where potato chips were invented (not the fries but rather crisps)
Hmm. Interesting 🤔
Pretty sure the city of Saratoga in New York predates the one in California by a lot.
I love his idea for Illinois. Most of us want Chicago in another state.
Within 2 hours!
We'd have done that many if we wanted the flag to just be stars
Pelisipia is the Cherokee name for the Ohio River
This video is brought to you by Squarespace. Literally.
What exactly is wrong with the states in the eastern interior being called the eastern interior? That is quite literally there location.
Saratoga is the name of a township in Upstate NY. It is the "Turning Point" (surrender site) of the American Revolution, where an Imperial British Army with, various "German" mercenaries, Loyalists, Canadians laid down their arms! General Philip Schuyler had a, for lack of a better term, Plantation there. The village name changed from Saratoga to Schuylerville in the mid 1800's. It is sometimes referred to as "Old Saratoga"! I read the exact same thing you sourced. Living here, I kinda take offense that you would mention california at all, it being from a later part of history
The upper peninsula should be its own state. Superior.
Thank goodness the east was spared from being squares
I do think certain state lines are unnatural, but his plan though maybe better is also unnatural.
I'm all for N. Wisconsin and N. Michigan to unify and create Sylvania.
Oversimplified: Strait line? Strait line.
Saratoga is the name of city in New York
Todo El Continente forma Parte de España desde 1492 De Polo Norte a Polo Sur
0:07 10 states*
Great video, I love early American history, but would also like to see more on the history of the states south of the Ohio river, my home state being one of them, shout out Kentucky! Have to say though, I'm glad we got named Kentucky, instead of some of the other proposed names for this state, Kentucky is still an original, I believe Native American word, that happens to be easy enough to pronounce and not to weird sounding either! You can go pretty much anywhere in the world and while they may not know the exact location, they have heard of Kentucky and I wouldn't have it any other way!
Don't even try to come for our UP :P
Jefferson and Washington were not close. They clashed a lot.
i think we should combine all the north n south states into one
east n west and vice versa
Hell no
8:30 Map of the United States of ***North*** America... Hmm, interesting...
The most well known Saratoga is in Florida
Saratoga is in New York though. I may be mistaken. It seems you’re thinking of Sarasota, Florida
@@UlisesHeureaux There are actually many Saratogas... including Saratoga Springs, Utah... so we are both correct
He's kinda right, although I think purely by luck. There's no town or city in Florida named "Saratoga" but there is a community of some kind with that name. So tell us, @ubergeek1968, where exactly in Florida is the place named Saratoga
@@fletchbg I looked into this. There is no Saratoga, Florida.
Why was it crazy? We sort of did this out west.
Saratoga NY? The turning point of the revolution?
My guess is pelisipia means happy bird or birds
Peli..means happy
Sipia is a genius of birds
Unless I'm wrong here but pelisipia is a happy bird
What bird I don't know unless Thomas Jefferson saw a lot of bald eagles in that area for Thomas Jefferson must if saw a lot of them in that area,
If Benjamin Franklin got his way the national bird would of been a turkey on which we eat up on Thanksgiving day, Thomas Jefferson thought the turkey was a ugly looking bird so he went with the omnivore bald eagle instead.
Yes they are carnivores but would eat grass if they had too, but they prefer fish, mice, and other small animals
The current borders are much better than previously proposed, but they're still terrible, not only because they're random or detached from geography, but primarily because most of the current states will be unable to compete, or establish a respected position in the geopolitics as sovereign countries, if the US disintegrates, or forces them to separate, so they should rather unify with other states, and renogotiate their borders, this time in accordance to geography and economy.
I wouldn't mind if North Carolina stretched from the Atlantic to the Mississippi.
As an American, I am a sucker for straight lines, squares, and rectangles. I don't care for squiggly lines as borders. They are not tidy or organized. Colorado and Utah, et al, get a thumbs up. Although I do have to say his naming plan was a bit esoteric.
The USA’s Straight Lines are a thing of beauty.
I see American grid planning had an early start…
It would have worked better for political representation specially they show a northern and southern Michigan and as a Michigander I can tell you that rural north and sourthern Michigan we share nothing in common politically and culturally