This discussion needs to happen in real time as you two co-op hardcore. It’d put the old PBG hardcore series to shame, and might just be the most ecumenical thing on this website.
I noticed that when Zoomer said "the scriptures predate the church councils", this is not entirely true. The Council of Jerusalem is recorded in scripture and predates most of the writings of the New Testament. Also, the way the scriptures describe the Council of Jerusalem is very similar to the Catholic view of ecumenical councils. The bishops of the time made decisions and their authority was binding, and anyone who disagreed with the council was no longer a part of the church.
There are many passages that corroborate what you are claiming. Acts 15:28, Matthew 18:15-18, Matthew 16:18-19 are great examples. Church authority established by Jesus predates the new testament scriptures.
Yes, and for most protestants and Catholics it's about the issue in principal. Protestants act like, yet avoid explicitly saying for how obviously wrong it is, that there was not an authoritative Church that transmitted doctrine before the Bible. It's obvious there was one, and the onus is on the protestant side to explain their view in essentially how Christianity transitioned from having that authority and not having a new testament to suddenly that authority just disappeared. The biggest hurdle is the verses they proof text from the Bible to show sola scriptura are from when sola scriptura definitely wasn't a thing, so they would have to hold that those verses applied to a situation that would only come about well after their completion or else just deny reality and the history of the Church
Prots like Redeemed Zoomer and Gavin Ortlund make the same, erroneous arguments by trying to subtly equate Catholicism with the Pharisees regarding tradition, engaging in the "word concept fallacy."
@@_ready__ Define "attain". We believe that salvation is first received in Baptism, entirely through the grace of our Lord by His sacrifice on the Cross. However, that is not the end of the story, but the beginning. Through God's grace, we are able to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in good works, and be turned back to God. Disobeying the 10 Commandments would compromise that, in the committing of Mortal Sin (1 John 5:13-17). As Jesus says, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments". God's grace continues in the sacrament of confession, where we can be forgiven and reconciled to God. As an analogy. Sin is our sickness, our wound. We cannot make ourselves better, and need a doctor. Salvation is in the healing of that sickness, when we enter into the doctor's care. But if you refuse treatment, or do not cooperate with the doctor, you will not be healed.
In one of rz videos his went to the Catholic city and visited a replica of the basílicas or church or something like that , God bless you brother/sister in Christ!have an exalent day!!!
I think a simple response to the "Early Church" claim, is just ask when did they cease being the Early Church? There's never a definitive point in history Protestants agree on. Some will say Chalcedon, some will say during Pope St. Leo the Great's Pontificate, some will say Nicaea, some will say in the 3rd century, and some will say when the last Apostle died. However, if a Protestant claims that, then they would also have to concede that at some point, the Church Jesus established, even if it was purely invisible, was corrupted and diluted with alleged false doctrine from all the 3 main Apostolic branches. All of which, the Protestants reject. In a sense, all Christians in the Invisible Church would be essentially practicing heresy until the Reformation.
They really need a gap between hierarchy of the councils and the time when the apostles were still alive preaching the gospel and appointing men do to so and lead others. They might have been able to dispute a lot of the dates to create such a gap in the past, but now they can't. There was a hierarchical sacerdotal authoritative Church that didn't believe in sola scriptura during the times of the apostles that continuously existed through the councils up til now
To add on to your rebuttal of Zoomer’s 3rd point. How do I know the Catholic Church is the one true church as opposed to the The Orthodox Churches? The Catholic Church is actually United in dogma and doctrine and has a way for determining what is the correct stance. I love the orthodox churches, but they’re not really united. It’s more like a loose confederation where they agree on big picture stuff, but if I were to ask an Orthodox priest about an issue (e.g. contraception) I could get 40 different answers and they don’t have a means to resolve which answer is actually correct. Sure they can call councils, but they also don’t have a way to define what makes something a council vs a synod vs a general meeting. The Orthodox churches also frequently excommunicate each other. Hell, even the Russian Patriarch has schismed with Constantinople. The Catholic Church has the magisterium which gives us a means to define our official stance on an issue, and we know when a council has been called because the Pope is the only one with the power (to my knowledge) to call for a full council.
Please could you make more videos like that! It’s amazing and you can ministry among kids and teens ❤. I’m a Catholic mom and this video popped up and I love it. Thanks for sharing it.
Ok i doubt many of you caught it. In the debate with James White trent horn asked James White a series of questions about when sola scriptura began as a doctrine, a teaching, or a belief with Dr White admitting Sola scriptura wasnt possible until at least the 5th century. Saying it took time to develop. Later in the q&a he was asked when Catholic tradition began to be regarded as authority for the church, he said 2nd century desert fathers. Not regarding the obvious irony in him complaining that catholic traditions took time to develop like sola scriptura. Just do the math, even Dr White has to admit Catholic tradition as an authority predates the possibility of sola scriptura! C’mon guys anyone that cant see the basic logic of how sola scriptura is NOT what the apostles or scripture taught! Scripture says if someone will not listen to the church, let them be as gentiles and tax collectors. Imagine that line in matthew said “and if he will not listen to scripture, let him be a gentile and tax collector it would be the top passage used to defend sola scriptura! Imagine paul said the scripture is the pillar and bulwark of truth! Protestant apologists would absolutely use them as prooftexts for sola scriptura. The problem is when we go actually go by scripture we see the church as an authority on par with scripture. The church predates the new testament guys wake up! The first letter was written to a church that already knew Paul, already had deacons, priests, a eucharist, liturgy, and its a sad sad conspiracy fantasy most Protestants live in where they think the church came from scripture instead of the other way around. I tried to explain this to a non denom friend who has ZERO knowledge of church history. He sees zero value in finding out what christians were doing 10 years after the resurrection. He could care less about the didache and bluntly said its because catholics wrote that to confuse the church. I said that would mean there was a good church and a catholic church less than a decade after Jesus died and none of the apostles, their predecessors, or historians mention it. It also means the catholics overtook the church, buried all the documents written by the true church, decades before the deaths of the last apostle, and not a whisper or shred of evidence in history to support that theory. He said since im Catholic he cant trust what im saying since he only goes by scripture. Ostrich tactics man….guess sticking your head in the sand is the only place to go when you realize you have nowhere to go.
Nice vídeo keep up the good work brother , and yes you should do a serious responding to rz btw God bless you brother in Christ and may you have an exalent day!
The Bible says good tradition=good, bad tradition=bad. Protestants like Redeemed Zoomer also have an "unwritten" tradition, they just treat "tradition" as a bad word, but tradition by any other name is still tradition.
Hey Catechumen! Do you have a discord channel? The Deuterocanonical books are a hobby study of mine. I would love to pick your brain at the Catholic perspective.
Funny they follow only scripture yet have a protestant catechism. Doesn't make sense when even the bible itself says not the book alone is to be followed.
Sola scriptura was something Martin Luther advocated. Luther was viciously anti Jew. Someone needs to examine if Luther used his ugly and vicious outlook to distort the gospel message.
I would say that the authority of the Church is justified and supported by the Scriptures. But it is not derived from the Scriptures. The Church predates the written New Testament
@@Cklert yes, I agree. The point is that Scriptures are clear on where the authority is. But it's quite stupid to say that Catholics believe in Sola Scripture because we find the support to reject Sola Scripture in Scriptures...
@@darrellperez1029 yeah, it was a joke... As the authority of the One True Church is found in Scriptures, but comes from God and not from Scriptures, Sola Scriptura is rejected and not confirmed
False: Nicea I predates the New Testament and only Bible they had was the Septuagint. Constantinople I was also before the Canonization of Christian Scriptures. So Nicea only had Tradition and Traditional Writings, even stuff Not in the New Testament. How late the New Testament is Canonized is the proof against Sola Scriptura. Sincerely in Xto Mike B. B. From Philly, P.A. U.S.A.
Naturally I could say a lot. But so what! I would like to add a wrinkle. Toddy’s academia makes little of the sages in years past to carry an oral tradition. In years past, brains were more adapted to memory, huge lengthy texts. I know Buddhists had very reliable oral tradition. I’m sure this was true of rabbinic scholarship. Point is . Not everything meds to be written to be true. Folks should give the Holy Spirit more credit. Also , us humans should be given more credit. God needs humans for the salvation He intends.
Hi there, I would wholeheartedly disagree that us Protestants had novel doctrines that we developed during the Reformation, like justification by non imputation. I’d love to discuss this further with you, since I think that I can offer an excellent response to some of your criticisms of our view of justification.
How can there not be novel doctrines developed during the reformation when different proto-denominational groups obviously arrived at distinctly different doctrines? Either *most* doctrines were novel, or else there was *never* a sole unified infallible teaching proclaimed by Christ Himself. Pick your poison.
@@Justas399 If you read the Scriptures, you must realize there are written and oral traditions. Just like St Paul told the Thessalonians. So a "list" is not necessary and irrelevant. Jesus did not say "on this book I will build my Church." St Paul said the Church is the pillar and ground of truth...not the Bible. All of your presuppositions need to be examined.
@@N1IA-4 The only things we know what Christ and His apostles did is found only in the NT. What was the name of the church that Paul said was the "pillar and ground of truth"?
This discussion needs to happen in real time as you two co-op hardcore. It’d put the old PBG hardcore series to shame, and might just be the most ecumenical thing on this website.
So much fun!! Thanks for continuing it and reinforcing my RCIA now that I’m no longer a catechumen
I noticed that when Zoomer said "the scriptures predate the church councils", this is not entirely true. The Council of Jerusalem is recorded in scripture and predates most of the writings of the New Testament. Also, the way the scriptures describe the Council of Jerusalem is very similar to the Catholic view of ecumenical councils. The bishops of the time made decisions and their authority was binding, and anyone who disagreed with the council was no longer a part of the church.
There are many passages that corroborate what you are claiming. Acts 15:28, Matthew 18:15-18, Matthew 16:18-19 are great examples. Church authority established by Jesus predates the new testament scriptures.
Yes, and for most protestants and Catholics it's about the issue in principal. Protestants act like, yet avoid explicitly saying for how obviously wrong it is, that there was not an authoritative Church that transmitted doctrine before the Bible. It's obvious there was one, and the onus is on the protestant side to explain their view in essentially how Christianity transitioned from having that authority and not having a new testament to suddenly that authority just disappeared. The biggest hurdle is the verses they proof text from the Bible to show sola scriptura are from when sola scriptura definitely wasn't a thing, so they would have to hold that those verses applied to a situation that would only come about well after their completion or else just deny reality and the history of the Church
"The gameplay helps to retain your attention"
But I'm listening to this at work
Prots like Redeemed Zoomer and Gavin Ortlund make the same, erroneous arguments by trying to subtly equate Catholicism with the Pharisees regarding tradition, engaging in the "word concept fallacy."
Lord i tried the tell them the Bible was not enough - how’s that going to sound
@@_ready__ What?
@@brittoncain5090 not good
Its seriously level 1 anti catholic stuff up there with saying constantine started the church.
@@timboslice980 who did
Nice video! I love this format especially for lighter subjects.
Proud catholic. 73 books!! we canonized the bible.
Proud Catholic. Why would you be proud as a believer of false doctrine
@@EmberBright2077they can't
That's why they do drive by comments.
@@EmberBright2077 no problem. Must you observe/follow the 10 commandments to ATTAIN salvation? We can start there. I have more. Maybe Darrel can help
@@_ready__ Define "attain". We believe that salvation is first received in Baptism, entirely through the grace of our Lord by His sacrifice on the Cross. However, that is not the end of the story, but the beginning. Through God's grace, we are able to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in good works, and be turned back to God.
Disobeying the 10 Commandments would compromise that, in the committing of Mortal Sin (1 John 5:13-17). As Jesus says, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments". God's grace continues in the sacrament of confession, where we can be forgiven and reconciled to God.
As an analogy. Sin is our sickness, our wound. We cannot make ourselves better, and need a doctor. Salvation is in the healing of that sickness, when we enter into the doctor's care. But if you refuse treatment, or do not cooperate with the doctor, you will not be healed.
@@EmberBright2077 ATTAIN is your catechism/religion terminology not mine
Minecraft and theology. This is kinda fun to watch
I am a Catholic and I teach Church History, diggy diggy holy, diggy diggy holy...
You could probably join his server and build a Catholic cathedral in it. I think there is a Catholic section in his world
In one of rz videos his went to the Catholic city and visited a replica of the basílicas or church or something like that , God bless you brother/sister in Christ!have an exalent day!!!
Who else wants to accidentally make these Minecraft theology videos his most popular so he’s forced to do more?
Really loving these videos! Looking forward to a part 3
Glad you like them! LMK if there is any video in particular that you’d like me to respond to from Redeemed Zoomer
The apostles came before the scriptures that alone makes his argument shallow
I think a simple response to the "Early Church" claim, is just ask when did they cease being the Early Church? There's never a definitive point in history Protestants agree on.
Some will say Chalcedon, some will say during Pope St. Leo the Great's Pontificate, some will say Nicaea, some will say in the 3rd century, and some will say when the last Apostle died.
However, if a Protestant claims that, then they would also have to concede that at some point, the Church Jesus established, even if it was purely invisible, was corrupted and diluted with alleged false doctrine from all the 3 main Apostolic branches. All of which, the Protestants reject. In a sense, all Christians in the Invisible Church would be essentially practicing heresy until the Reformation.
They really need a gap between hierarchy of the councils and the time when the apostles were still alive preaching the gospel and appointing men do to so and lead others. They might have been able to dispute a lot of the dates to create such a gap in the past, but now they can't. There was a hierarchical sacerdotal authoritative Church that didn't believe in sola scriptura during the times of the apostles that continuously existed through the councils up til now
To add on to your rebuttal of Zoomer’s 3rd point.
How do I know the Catholic Church is the one true church as opposed to the The Orthodox Churches? The Catholic Church is actually United in dogma and doctrine and has a way for determining what is the correct stance.
I love the orthodox churches, but they’re not really united. It’s more like a loose confederation where they agree on big picture stuff, but if I were to ask an Orthodox priest about an issue (e.g. contraception) I could get 40 different answers and they don’t have a means to resolve which answer is actually correct. Sure they can call councils, but they also don’t have a way to define what makes something a council vs a synod vs a general meeting. The Orthodox churches also frequently excommunicate each other. Hell, even the Russian Patriarch has schismed with Constantinople.
The Catholic Church has the magisterium which gives us a means to define our official stance on an issue, and we know when a council has been called because the Pope is the only one with the power (to my knowledge) to call for a full council.
Please could you make more videos like that! It’s amazing and you can ministry among kids and teens ❤. I’m a Catholic mom and this video popped up and I love it. Thanks for sharing it.
For sure!! Thank you 🙏
By far my favorite yt series rn
Byzantine Emperors always addressed Popes as superior to other Patriarchs.
He's really comparing Linus, Cleatus, and Clement to the Pharisees? We don't even have to go to Peter, Paul, Phillip, and John
That was one of the defenses of sola scriptura of all time.
link to part 1 ?
The Canonj Conundrum itself is enough to debunk sola scriptura.
Ok i doubt many of you caught it. In the debate with James White trent horn asked James White a series of questions about when sola scriptura began as a doctrine, a teaching, or a belief with Dr White admitting Sola scriptura wasnt possible until at least the 5th century. Saying it took time to develop. Later in the q&a he was asked when Catholic tradition began to be regarded as authority for the church, he said 2nd century desert fathers. Not regarding the obvious irony in him complaining that catholic traditions took time to develop like sola scriptura. Just do the math, even Dr White has to admit Catholic tradition as an authority predates the possibility of sola scriptura!
C’mon guys anyone that cant see the basic logic of how sola scriptura is NOT what the apostles or scripture taught! Scripture says if someone will not listen to the church, let them be as gentiles and tax collectors. Imagine that line in matthew said “and if he will not listen to scripture, let him be a gentile and tax collector it would be the top passage used to defend sola scriptura! Imagine paul said the scripture is the pillar and bulwark of truth! Protestant apologists would absolutely use them as prooftexts for sola scriptura.
The problem is when we go actually go by scripture we see the church as an authority on par with scripture. The church predates the new testament guys wake up! The first letter was written to a church that already knew Paul, already had deacons, priests, a eucharist, liturgy, and its a sad sad conspiracy fantasy most Protestants live in where they think the church came from scripture instead of the other way around. I tried to explain this to a non denom friend who has ZERO knowledge of church history. He sees zero value in finding out what christians were doing 10 years after the resurrection. He could care less about the didache and bluntly said its because catholics wrote that to confuse the church. I said that would mean there was a good church and a catholic church less than a decade after Jesus died and none of the apostles, their predecessors, or historians mention it. It also means the catholics overtook the church, buried all the documents written by the true church, decades before the deaths of the last apostle, and not a whisper or shred of evidence in history to support that theory. He said since im Catholic he cant trust what im saying since he only goes by scripture. Ostrich tactics man….guess sticking your head in the sand is the only place to go when you realize you have nowhere to go.
Not only the church, but the council of Jerusalem happened at around 50 AD, about the time when Paul just started writing the Pauline epistles.
Did there really need to be a part 2? Sola Scriptura is so dumb
Agreed
We can't just have a "Solo" response.......🌝
😂😂 I wanted to make sure we addressed all the arguments.
Imagine how our brother in Christ, Brandon would’ve looked if it appeared as if he “folded” halfway through the arguments. This had to be done…
Dumb ideas often take longer to refute than to come up with
Thank you very much for this video. Did you think to start a Let's Play channel where you would talk about light theology?
Bro youre looking more handsome than usual keep it up 💪💪
Nice vídeo keep up the good work brother , and yes you should do a serious responding to rz btw God bless you brother in Christ and may you have an exalent day!
We are
C-atholics
U-ntil
T-he
E-nd
Viva Christo Rey
Ave Maria
✝️📿🙏❤️💚💙
The Bible says good tradition=good, bad tradition=bad. Protestants like Redeemed Zoomer also have an "unwritten" tradition, they just treat "tradition" as a bad word, but tradition by any other name is still tradition.
Campfires are better at cooking food. Does four at a time and doesn't use up coal.
I honestly forgot they existed 😂
@@thecatechumen But they need silk touch to move.
Hey Catechumen! Do you have a discord channel? The Deuterocanonical books are a hobby study of mine. I would love to pick your brain at the Catholic perspective.
“My” discord channel is really just Kyle Whittington’s. Go give him a sub and join because I’m actively mostly there!
Funny they follow only scripture yet have a protestant catechism. Doesn't make sense when even the bible itself says not the book alone is to be followed.
Sola scriptura was something Martin Luther advocated. Luther was viciously anti Jew. Someone needs to examine if Luther used his ugly and vicious outlook to distort the gospel message.
Deus Vult!
Next server should be named Iconostasis!
We believe in the authority of the Church, which is clearly in Scriptures...
So, in a sense, we believe in Sola Scritura...
I would say that the authority of the Church is justified and supported by the Scriptures. But it is not derived from the Scriptures. The Church predates the written New Testament
Um...no
@@Cklert yes, I agree.
The point is that Scriptures are clear on where the authority is. But it's quite stupid to say that Catholics believe in Sola Scripture because we find the support to reject Sola Scripture in Scriptures...
@@darrellperez1029 yeah, it was a joke...
As the authority of the One True Church is found in Scriptures, but comes from God and not from Scriptures, Sola Scriptura is rejected and not confirmed
@@jpanduezadlf then I apologize sir
False: Nicea I predates the New Testament and only Bible they had was the Septuagint.
Constantinople I was also before the Canonization of Christian Scriptures.
So Nicea only had Tradition and Traditional Writings, even stuff Not in the New Testament.
How late the New Testament is Canonized is the proof against Sola Scriptura.
Sincerely in Xto
Mike B. B. From Philly, P.A. U.S.A.
Time stamp circa @1:05:00
Naturally I could say a lot. But so what! I would like to add a wrinkle. Toddy’s academia makes little of the sages in years past to carry an oral tradition. In years past, brains were more adapted to memory, huge lengthy texts. I know Buddhists had very reliable oral tradition. I’m sure this was true of rabbinic scholarship. Point is . Not everything meds to be written to be true. Folks should give the Holy Spirit more credit. Also , us humans should be given more credit. God needs humans for the salvation He intends.
very cute baby, I didn't know you were married//were a dad!
Hi there, I would wholeheartedly disagree that us Protestants had novel doctrines that we developed during the Reformation, like justification by non imputation. I’d love to discuss this further with you, since I think that I can offer an excellent response to some of your criticisms of our view of justification.
How can there not be novel doctrines developed during the reformation when different proto-denominational groups obviously arrived at distinctly different doctrines? Either *most* doctrines were novel, or else there was *never* a sole unified infallible teaching proclaimed by Christ Himself. Pick your poison.
Don't know about novel doctrines as the protestant catechism (all three) are very short.
Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are novel doctines. @@darrellperez1029
Is there an official list of the traditions of the roman catholic church?
We don't need a list. All you need to do is read the Catholic Catechism which encapsulates our beliefs. It's available freely online.
And it is the "Catholic Church" which consists of the Eastern and Western Rites
@@N1IA-4 Without a list you don't know all the traditions of your church. Your catechism will not tell you these things.
@@Justas399 If you read the Scriptures, you must realize there are written and oral traditions. Just like St Paul told the Thessalonians. So a "list" is not necessary and irrelevant. Jesus did not say "on this book I will build my Church." St Paul said the Church is the pillar and ground of truth...not the Bible. All of your presuppositions need to be examined.
@@N1IA-4 The only things we know what Christ and His apostles did is found only in the NT.
What was the name of the church that Paul said was the "pillar and ground of truth"?
Sola scriptura, or nothing.
Quite the ultimatum, but according to whom?