"You can't make fun of me this time Chat... or Comment. Or whatever you are". We are the Second Chat, born from the renegade chatters of Twitch. Fortunately, the creature is still in its infant stages. It can"t spam KEKW after Grant's every mistake yet, but still have control over the most commments on UA-cam.
Funny thing is actual brood war managed to edit that like to just "yes?" Once they realized kerrigain wasnt just going to be working with zerg, so this is a gap in mass recall.
With all due respect, I think that the Second Overmind is the better choice. This plotline demonstrates a key aspect to the Zerg: their strict, unwavering hierarchy that is a result of their specific bioengineering that either works perfectly, or crashes and burns spectacularly. This same hierarchy allowed them to stay mostly united and deadly at a time when both the Protoss and the Terrans were fighting internally. The Cerebrates alone were made to control an army, but do not have the capacity to plan for the entire Swarm. That is why they try to remake the Second Overmind.
I haven't played brood war that much but we do even see the new overmind do anything other then being a plot device so the protos and terrans ally themselves with kerrigan
I love their relationship 11:50 : Grant: Hey Kerrigan Kerrigan: What is it now? Grant: Can you, please, use razor storm? Kerrigan: Yes.. Cerebrate Grant: Thaaankyouuu
Thinking of it, aren't Cerebrates reincarnated only by Overmind? So once it is dead and Cerebrates remains, it would make some sense they want to create new Overmind, so they are still immortal (except when killed by big DT energy). Then again, there is a plothole, because Zeratul in previous mission stated that Cerebrates can be only killed by DT energy, but that was only true because Overmind wasn't able to reincarnate them that way. And now, when Overmind is dead and Overmind2 is not yet revealed, how does Zeratul know? He should be like "Oh yeah, Overmind is dead, Cerebrates are now mortal, bring me some metal slugs or bombard them from orbit"
did Zeratul know it's the Overmind reincarnating them though? I think protoss only saw cerebrates kept reviving, and only when playing zerg did players learn it's done by the Overmind itself
@@kewu313 It could be that RKO'ing a cerebrate gave Zera info, because big Overmind did it to him, it could be both ways- Though, honestly building cerebrates with a built in immortality thing just so the Overmind doesn't have to focus on them sounds fair too.
In the missions on shakuras where you have to kill the cerebrates, the cerebrate will keep respawning if you don't kill it with DTs (i.e. have them within a trigger box around it when it dies). So mechanically Cerebrates are still functionally immortal. But then on the mission on Char as the UED you can kill the cerebrates just fine with your space marines and tanks so its kinda inconsistent. And then again with the overmind under the control of the UED in the zerg campaign Kerrigan needs Zeratul & co. to kill it for her, even though Kerrigan *should* be able to kill it herself because by nature of BEING a zerg she should channel the same energies as the Overmind & Zerg unless she was inducted into the swarm for bein *unlike* the cerebrates & overmind.... The only way it makes sense is that the ability to reincarnate is an intrinsic quality of the cerebrates within the hive mind and the dark energies that the DTs channel can counter-act and disrupt that hive mind connection and in the UED mission with the cerebrates the Cerebrates were vulnerable because they were channeling all their power into the swarms in an attempt to overwhelm the UED invasion force. And finally that the powers Kerrigan has are distinct from the Overmind & its Cerebrates meaning she can't hurt them like a DT can and that the Cerebrates being born directly from the will and powers of the Overmind have an intrinsic need and/or desire to maintain the existence of the Overmind, which is why Kerrigan kills them all even after dismantling the upper echelons of the Zerg hive mind and claiming control for herself.
I just love how Raszagal just shows her mindcontrol with every word she speaks. Example: "Allow her time enough to prove herself to you, and you may find her to be a valued ally." Kerrigan was infested to the core and the only one who saw it was Aldaris. I don't get why they just didn't execute Kerrigan on the spot.
Because Aldaris doesn't lead the Dart Templar, that's Raszagal, and Raszagal's probably been mind controlled before Kerrigan showed herself to the Protoss proper
@@extendetBG Some of them did - the ones she voiced during that warmongering mini-tirade during the pre-mission 8 briefing - he definitely knew something was up then, and the way he voiced 'indeed' to her response to his probing suggests he didn't quite buy her explanation...but I doubt he ever went so far as to consider total mental domination up until Zerg mission 8 - he probably didn't think it possible any more than the Protoss themselves thought infestation was possible due to their being protected by the Khala.
I think the reason they give you the Reavers is to siege down bunkers, which they're actually pretty good at since they have long range and bunkers can't move and screw up the scarab's pathing. But since you're just rolling over them with a giant ball of zealots and archons they really don't add anything.
Also scarab in sc1, once they reach the target they instantly explode. Here in sc2 mass recall, they have a timer before exploding even thought they reached their target
@@aaronscott7467 They don't seem to actually make contact, rather they're stopping shortly before they get there. Hence why the scarab is just sitting there right next to the unit and not exploding until their timer runs out.
While I agree that the second overmind is less interesting an antagonist than an empowered Daggoth, the idea of Daggoth being able to force control back over the entire swarm is less credible, which is important for both the Kerrigan and UED plotlines.
I feel this. I always figured the scary thing with the Overmind was its ability to control the whole swarm and cerebrates didn't have that reach. My vibe with this plot was always more "Daggoth is building a new overmind (i.e. a superweapon)" more than "A new overmind is forming". Its role later getting captured and then wielded by another faction I think supports this framing. Maybe they should have called it something else?
@@Jack-Lynch I mean... can the overmind even control the entire swarm? I thought that's what the cerebrates were for, so it didn't have to. In which case, if Daggoth could create his own cerebrates under him, or something else that could control the swarm... say... a SC2 queen, he could probably have enough reach to ascend into a new overmind of sorts,
@@ironmilutin I think it's like a relay system. The overmind could maybe get overwhelmed with the sheer size of the swarm, so it breaks it down into sections headed by cerebrates that it can give orders to
@@ironmilutin I'm pretty sure the overmind can control the entire swarm, but its only got so much APM, so it creates the cerebrates so they can all APM through various problems for it, as well as possibly being better at tactics and stuff than the overmind.
We are 25 years late to this discussion, but what if Daggoth frees himself from Overmind's constraints (same as Kerrigan) and decides to take over the swarm by growing itself larger and encorporating other cerebrates into itself? Cerebrates were not designed to do this, so as Daggoth controls more Zerg, it starts destroying its personality, so now galaxy has to deal with a schizophrenic alien maniac on a power trip (hi GladOS). At this point Kerrigan would be a much more preferred ruler of Zerg if you ask Protoss or Terran. Kinda like Sylvana is a preferred choice to rule Undead compared to the Lich King or Demons in WC3.
To be honest, I think that the second overmind plotline was more or less the right choice. What they should have done though is develop Daggoth a bit more as a character. We do not hear him once in Brood War. We do not even see him perish...
Daggoth is the only one of the 21 known cerebrates that doesn't die in-universe in the campaign or novels. The only confirmation of his death we have is Chris Metzen during an interview saying all the cerebrates are dead. (And Blizzard will never reference cerebrates again because they have a standing "playing nice" order with Games Workshop to not use cerebrates.)
@@F14thunderhawk I tried to post links to the sources to prove my statements, but it looks like UA-cam ate them. Quest For Uraj, the BW mission. Kerrigan states that Daggoth is having other cerebrates make the new Overmind. One of the developers for SC2 stated in a comment thread on Deviant Art there is a standing creative directive to no longer use or reference cerebrates as part of "playing nice" with Games Workshop because of something about Tyranids in Warhammer 40k.
@@BluePhoenix_ I mean, technically we're both the magistrate, cerebrate, and executor, so she's technically not wrong, she just knows more than everyone else
@@BluePhoenix_ Does she have the cerebrate before she seizes control of one at the start of the BW Zerg campaign? It seems to me she is operating alone during the first two BW campaigns, barely capable of controlling a small handful of Zerg because of the rest of the cerebrates' control. My impression is that it was the Psi Disruptor that allowed her to separate one of the lesser cerebrates for herself.
@@BluePhoenix_ Also, the "Yes, Cerebrate?" line was indeed changed into "Yes?" in BW. I distinctly remember that happening. In the BW patch it even affected the vanilla Zerg campaign.
Yeah I notices that too. I also think they don't count as units built but as units lost, because there was one mission where I lost like 100 more units than I built. So the stats can definitely get kinda messed up.
Even though the second Overmind isnt as interesting as the first one, i think it fullfills its role in the story since its main purpose is to intensify the UED threat. In Vanilla sc the terran were very ignorant and they felt powerless against the protoss and the Zerg. Only in the fall they accomplish something by helping the protoss defeat the overmind. But when the ued arrived at the coprulu sector, the first thing they do was put the protoss on a lockdown. Then they were able to walk under Tarsonis with no issue whatsoever and they dethroned Mengssk without so much struggle (not caused by duran). Once in char, they can not only understand how the zerg function, but also they have the technology to pacify and control the overmind itself. So now the rulers of the coprulu sector not only have weaponry able to surpass the protoss but also they have a freaking overmind under they total control. The reason of why this is do threatening is, specifically, because we know about what the original overmind was capable of doing. Only with the exceptions that the UED wouldnt be able to conttol it without the psi disruptor, the ued had only limited control of the overmind and this new overmind is currently weaker than the original one (but it might have the potential to be equally good)
Kerrigan can cloak throughout BW. Actually now that you mention it it's quite odd that Kerrigan can't cloak in SC2, it never occurred to me at the time because of the huge gap between playing BW and when SC2 came out.
I actually like the idea of a second Overmind. It gives the Zerg a way to recover to their full power. However, not giving Daggoth any role - whether as the basis for the new Overmind or as it's caretaker - in the Brood War story was indeed a waste. It would have been interesting to see him in the UED campaign, including interactions with Duran.
i never understood why they didn't fortivy that xel naga temple from the last mission, like that is a zerg-b-gone button and seems important, why dud they leave it alone especialy after the zerg already surrounded once
Why not build a city around it, then keep the crystals around just in case you need a delete button, no need to detonate the planet.... *cough* LotV *cough*
Comments out here like a mom when you forget to put on your winter jacket. "Dont forget your detection, sweetie! Remember what the wraiths did to Little Jimmy's mineral line!"
I do believe you were correct in referring to it as the sink cost fallacy, as that refers to a situation in which because you've already invested in a course of action that you then commit to it further regardless of outcome rather than switching course.
Ooooh! I just realized you can make scouts good! With...um...an arbiter. Okay, they won't be half as good as carriers with an arbiter is, but they wouldn't just evaporate.
Braxis is desert-y in HotS because it was purified by Artanis at the tail end of the Brood War during the mission Resurrection from the N64 version of Starcraft - which Stukov mentioned the events of in Heart of the Swarm, thereby making it an official part of Starcraft lore. Also, the merits of the Second Overmind plotline aside...why does Zeratul treat a possible second one with so little concern when the first one was treated as a treat of apocalyptic proportions, especially as it nearly succeeded in its goal, and was only stopped by a matter of providence on Tassadar's part?
Daggoth becoming empowered and growing into the new Overmind, or something akin to it, could have been interesting. Instead it sort of happened entirely ofscreen and we got no personality or real malice from it. It was only there so the UED had something to control. (Which I also think would have had more weight to it if it WAS Daggoth. Controlling a silent brain thing is one thing, controlling someone we worked with in Episode 2 and that had been an active threat so far in Brood War would have been something else)
I imagine the scarabs inside the reavers are just drinking copiously before their inevitable suicide mission, thus explaining why they're such bad shots.
I agree that the second Overmind storyline is one of the weaker points of Starcraft story, although it could have been interesting if we had got to learn a bit more about it. The first Overmind had its own idea of glory, purpose and all these things, whereas the second Overmind was under the UED's control. I'd have liked to see how twisted a version of the Overmind he'd have made.
I think the fallacy you're referring to is the Endowment Effect? Basically, that's where people value things that they own more than things that they don't, and will e.g. pay more to keep something they already have than they would to buy that same thing in the first place.
Ganna say that Kerrigan is absolutely not a liability here. Razor swarm is incredibly powerful, esp at the first base where they have to come up a ramp to you. She can cloak which helps so much in keeping her safe. They don't usually scan her if you swarm while cloaked.
"Yes, Cerebrate?" -kerrigan, forgetting that shes pretending to work with the protoss now. Anyway, the second Overmind was never an actual character. it was just a demonstration of how the Cerebrates are useless without their glorious leader, so the only thing they can think of doing is to try to get him back, and how vulnerable this makes them to any manipulator who comes along. That's why Kerrigan destroyed them all and invented broodmothers instead in the four years between Brood War and Wings of Liberty.
They should have framed Overmind2 as Daggoth forcefully absorbing the powers of the other cerebretes to become the new Overmind (similar how the primal zerg in SC2 absorb essence to become stronger) That way you could have Overmind2 and a known antagonist.
For the produced/killed/lost numbers at the end I wonder if they were counting scarabs as losses? Resulting in the produced 202 vs lost 272 are therefore causing the 0% survival rate? Just a thought, not sure how to check it though..
SC2: "Kerrigan was evil because Amon was controlling her through the overmind! She's actually a good person!" SC1: "The Overmind is dead. Whatever warped control it once had over me is gone"
@@marley7868 so for you which idea is better, she bieng a meat puppet of amon all along, or being one of the overmind or, just pure willing evil cause she likes it
It would more sense if protoss freeze only if their shields went down, like in WoL. Then the mission in the ice planet in HotS would be more challenging.
I like what we have. The ggg archives crowd is somewhat calmer and i want to let you know that i like your (the one i see) personality. Comment 4 the algorithm and hopefully brighten grants day a little
Reaver has been weirdly nerfed into oblivion. That brown SCV tanked 3 direct scarab shots and survived. In StarCraft 1 all 30 scarabs would’ve killed at least factories and command Center, let alone SCV. Also SC2 assets of applicable building looks better. Or alternatively, you let a probe pickup crystal and send it to Kerrigan. Yes, probe can pickup crystals.
The second Overmind plotline would have been much better if the second Overmind was a character that had lines to say. At least have him threaten/beg when UED8 rolls around. And a "thank you" when Zeratul kills him.
The whole idea of the 2nd Overmind leaves me really scratching my head. Like, the Overmind states that in spite of Kerrigan's apparent defiance of the Overmind's will, she is as bound to his will as any cerebrate. If that were true, then she should be onboard with the existence of a new Overmind, but instead, she tries to take control of the Zerg herself. Was the Overmind wrong, or was he lying to keep the cerebrates from freaking out? It doesn't seem like the kind of thing he should even be capable of being wrong about, since he basically reconstructed her entire body cell-by-cell, but then, why lie? He could just say, in as many words, that Kerrigan is his true heir as matriarch of the Swarm, and that should his body fail, she is designed to lead in his place, and that should suffice for his eternally loyal cerebrates. Then you have to wonder about Kerrigan's role. Is she telling the truth when she says that the Overmind controlled her? It doesn't seem like she is, since she basically admits that she was just leading the Protoss by the nose the whole time. But according to SC2 retcon, I mean, explanation, Amon was supposedly subtly controlling The Overmind and thus Kerrigan, and that the whole point of getting her deinfested and reinfested was so that she could be The Queen of Blades without being under Amon's control. So none of this makes any sense.
Without a current Overmind, why would she be bound to the Overmind’s will? I take it as she’s temporarily free (but still secretly, unknown to her, under Amon’s influence) and can act to keep herself that way - but should there be a new Overmind she would have to submit to it.
idk if I'm remembering correctly, but I think when Zeratul talks to the overmind's corpse, he's like "oh yeah I made Kerrigan to be outside of my control so that Amon couldn't control me and thus her by proxy because of the prophecy or whatever"
@@iskende But he couldn’t make her free of himself entirely, as that would be working directly against Amon. The Overmind made her as free of Amon as he could, and then sent himself on a suicide mission to Aiur, knowing that with him gone Kerrigan would work to free herself fully. As long as she was under the hierarchy then the Overmind hadn’t created anything that could fight Amon, and Aiur was one of Amon’s main targets, as sending itself there to lead the attack was justified. It was only once the Overmind was dead that Kerrigan could start to act freely.
@@DanStaal Without a current Overmind, why would the Cerabrates be bound to The Overmind's will? The insinuation is that Kerrigan and the Cerebrates are supposed to be more or less interchangeable, according to The Overmind's own assessment. I am trying to account for the discrepancy in their behavior
@@MrGeorgeFlorcus But she is specifically something different than a Cerebrate - their equal, but also something more. A Cerebrate is just a mind created to run the Zerg - likely a creation of Amon in the first place. Kerrigan is a human converted, the Overmind's greatest creation. She can *function* as a Cerebrate, but that's not all she is.
"She lies! She's infested to the core! I for one will not stand for listening to this!" Aldaris, I never liked you as a person but I respect your wisdom.
I would assume that the Zerg has some kind of backup in case the Overmind would be destroyed, so creating new one is fine with me. But I'm not (emotionally) attached to any Overminds...
I thing it second overmin dis kinda neede since Kerrigan is the overminds ultimate weapon and hope against Amon since he at his peak was bearly able to controle her. Can't see Daggoth finding that kind of psi power to top her defences.
The Fallacy you mention at 24:44 is probably the Endowment Effect. It's the behavioral tendency for people tolike the specific thing they own more than "equivalent" versions of it you don't - for example, the classic result in this field is that subject's price to a mug they are given is significantly higher than the price they'd pay to acquire it before it was given to them.
I think it would have worked a little better if they had maybe made it more explicit, Daggoth IS the new overmind, or at least the dominant intelligence In it, and give it, a scene to interact with or speak, like maybe a scene where its talking to the player cerabrate about stuff before kerrigam cuts the link, just a little window into its character. Then maybe another call later on attempting to call you out or even just begging to die after its control ny the UED.
I think the new Overmind plot is perfect. Though having Daggoth in control of the situation could have been better; Daggoth should have been destroyed by the UED to show that the UED is an extremely powerful force and it's why you needed all the races combined to take them down. Daggoth should have been the first thing the UED should have destroyed imo though it breaks the order. However, destroying Daggoth in this campaign adds to it as to why the UED had an... Easy time, controlling the infant.
I don't know how the rest of Sc1 plot plays out, but this "second overmind plot" kind of sounds likes it's creating and control o the overmind for daggoth, So that Daggoth will be the new overmind and have the same control and power as the previous overmind rather than just the power of a cerebrate.
"You can't make fun of me this time Chat... or Comment. Or whatever you are". We are the Second Chat, born from the renegade chatters of Twitch. Fortunately, the creature is still in its infant stages. It can"t spam KEKW after Grant's every mistake yet, but still have control over the most commments on UA-cam.
KEKW
Purple Solarite: *Exists*
Karax: *Heavy Breathing*
it's like grape fanta
Kerrigan: yes cerebrate?
Selendis: *visible confusion*
Funny thing is actual brood war managed to edit that like to just "yes?" Once they realized kerrigain wasnt just going to be working with zerg, so this is a gap in mass recall.
With all due respect, I think that the Second Overmind is the better choice. This plotline demonstrates a key aspect to the Zerg: their strict, unwavering hierarchy that is a result of their specific bioengineering that either works perfectly, or crashes and burns spectacularly. This same hierarchy allowed them to stay mostly united and deadly at a time when both the Protoss and the Terrans were fighting internally. The Cerebrates alone were made to control an army, but do not have the capacity to plan for the entire Swarm. That is why they try to remake the Second Overmind.
I haven't played brood war that much but we do even see the new overmind do anything other then being a plot device so the protos and terrans ally themselves with kerrigan
I really love it every time an scv walks by your army, soaks like 5 scarabs, and then dies to a zealot.
I love their relationship 11:50 :
Grant: Hey Kerrigan
Kerrigan: What is it now?
Grant: Can you, please, use razor storm?
Kerrigan: Yes.. Cerebrate
Grant: Thaaankyouuu
Thinking of it, aren't Cerebrates reincarnated only by Overmind? So once it is dead and Cerebrates remains, it would make some sense they want to create new Overmind, so they are still immortal (except when killed by big DT energy). Then again, there is a plothole, because Zeratul in previous mission stated that Cerebrates can be only killed by DT energy, but that was only true because Overmind wasn't able to reincarnate them that way. And now, when Overmind is dead and Overmind2 is not yet revealed, how does Zeratul know? He should be like "Oh yeah, Overmind is dead, Cerebrates are now mortal, bring me some metal slugs or bombard them from orbit"
did Zeratul know it's the Overmind reincarnating them though? I think protoss only saw cerebrates kept reviving, and only when playing zerg did players learn it's done by the Overmind itself
@@kewu313 I stand corrected, thank you. So it only still stands that Cerebrates need new Overmind to keep them from dying
@@kewu313 It could be that RKO'ing a cerebrate gave Zera info, because big Overmind did it to him, it could be both ways-
Though, honestly building cerebrates with a built in immortality thing just so the Overmind doesn't have to focus on them sounds fair too.
Kerrigan needed the Dark Templar to kill her rival Cerebrates, so either the new Overmind was born too quickly or Cerebrates are just always immortal.
In the missions on shakuras where you have to kill the cerebrates, the cerebrate will keep respawning if you don't kill it with DTs (i.e. have them within a trigger box around it when it dies). So mechanically Cerebrates are still functionally immortal.
But then on the mission on Char as the UED you can kill the cerebrates just fine with your space marines and tanks so its kinda inconsistent.
And then again with the overmind under the control of the UED in the zerg campaign Kerrigan needs Zeratul & co. to kill it for her, even though Kerrigan *should* be able to kill it herself because by nature of BEING a zerg she should channel the same energies as the Overmind & Zerg unless she was inducted into the swarm for bein *unlike* the cerebrates & overmind....
The only way it makes sense is that the ability to reincarnate is an intrinsic quality of the cerebrates within the hive mind and the dark energies that the DTs channel can counter-act and disrupt that hive mind connection and in the UED mission with the cerebrates the Cerebrates were vulnerable because they were channeling all their power into the swarms in an attempt to overwhelm the UED invasion force.
And finally that the powers Kerrigan has are distinct from the Overmind & its Cerebrates meaning she can't hurt them like a DT can and that the Cerebrates being born directly from the will and powers of the Overmind have an intrinsic need and/or desire to maintain the existence of the Overmind, which is why Kerrigan kills them all even after dismantling the upper echelons of the Zerg hive mind and claiming control for herself.
"What about the overmind?"
"You've already had it."
"We've had one, yes. What about second overmind?"
I just love how Raszagal just shows her mindcontrol with every word she speaks. Example: "Allow her time enough to prove herself to you, and you may find her to be a valued ally."
Kerrigan was infested to the core and the only one who saw it was Aldaris. I don't get why they just didn't execute Kerrigan on the spot.
Because Aldaris doesn't lead the Dart Templar, that's Raszagal, and Raszagal's probably been mind controlled before Kerrigan showed herself to the Protoss proper
@@amateurishauthor2202 She was - Kerrigan said as much at the end of To Slay the Beast.
Raszagal's words should have given her away. Especially to those who already knew her. Unless she always talks like that.
@@extendetBG Some of them did - the ones she voiced during that warmongering mini-tirade during the pre-mission 8 briefing - he definitely knew something was up then, and the way he voiced 'indeed' to her response to his probing suggests he didn't quite buy her explanation...but I doubt he ever went so far as to consider total mental domination up until Zerg mission 8 - he probably didn't think it possible any more than the Protoss themselves thought infestation was possible due to their being protected by the Khala.
I can imagine in Kal’dir they’re just talking casually, THEN FEEZE....and they just resume normally like nothing happened
This is Kaldir!? where's the flash freezes!? did HotS take place in the North Pole or something!?
@@amateurishauthor2202 No, this is the planet Braxis
Okay whew, reading this made me forget that
I think the reason they give you the Reavers is to siege down bunkers, which they're actually pretty good at since they have long range and bunkers can't move and screw up the scarab's pathing. But since you're just rolling over them with a giant ball of zealots and archons they really don't add anything.
I think you underestimate the scarab's ability to get lost and confused
Considering SC1 pathing I still wouldn't bet on it. :p
Saying that scarabs got out micro'd by a gateway in one of the missions in the last campaign so saying that bunkers can't do the same my be a stretch
Also scarab in sc1, once they reach the target they instantly explode. Here in sc2 mass recall, they have a timer before exploding even thought they reached their target
@@aaronscott7467 They don't seem to actually make contact, rather they're stopping shortly before they get there. Hence why the scarab is just sitting there right next to the unit and not exploding until their timer runs out.
While I agree that the second overmind is less interesting an antagonist than an empowered Daggoth, the idea of Daggoth being able to force control back over the entire swarm is less credible, which is important for both the Kerrigan and UED plotlines.
I feel this. I always figured the scary thing with the Overmind was its ability to control the whole swarm and cerebrates didn't have that reach. My vibe with this plot was always more "Daggoth is building a new overmind (i.e. a superweapon)" more than "A new overmind is forming". Its role later getting captured and then wielded by another faction I think supports this framing. Maybe they should have called it something else?
@@Jack-Lynch I mean... can the overmind even control the entire swarm? I thought that's what the cerebrates were for, so it didn't have to. In which case, if Daggoth could create his own cerebrates under him, or something else that could control the swarm... say... a SC2 queen, he could probably have enough reach to ascend into a new overmind of sorts,
@@ironmilutin I think it's like a relay system. The overmind could maybe get overwhelmed with the sheer size of the swarm, so it breaks it down into sections headed by cerebrates that it can give orders to
@@ironmilutin I'm pretty sure the overmind can control the entire swarm, but its only got so much APM, so it creates the cerebrates so they can all APM through various problems for it, as well as possibly being better at tactics and stuff than the overmind.
We are 25 years late to this discussion, but what if Daggoth frees himself from Overmind's constraints (same as Kerrigan) and decides to take over the swarm by growing itself larger and encorporating other cerebrates into itself? Cerebrates were not designed to do this, so as Daggoth controls more Zerg, it starts destroying its personality, so now galaxy has to deal with a schizophrenic alien maniac on a power trip (hi GladOS). At this point Kerrigan would be a much more preferred ruler of Zerg if you ask Protoss or Terran. Kinda like Sylvana is a preferred choice to rule Undead compared to the Lich King or Demons in WC3.
To be honest, I think that the second overmind plotline was more or less the right choice. What they should have done though is develop Daggoth a bit more as a character. We do not hear him once in Brood War. We do not even see him perish...
Daggoth is the only one of the 21 known cerebrates that doesn't die in-universe in the campaign or novels. The only confirmation of his death we have is Chris Metzen during an interview saying all the cerebrates are dead.
(And Blizzard will never reference cerebrates again because they have a standing "playing nice" order with Games Workshop to not use cerebrates.)
@@sintanan469 1: theres no play nice order with Starcraft IP vs GW.
2: Daggoth is the core of the New Overmind. so you kill him with Zeratul
@@F14thunderhawk Yeah Daggoth is one of the cerebrates that fuses into the new overmind.
@@F14thunderhawk I tried to post links to the sources to prove my statements, but it looks like UA-cam ate them.
Quest For Uraj, the BW mission. Kerrigan states that Daggoth is having other cerebrates make the new Overmind.
One of the developers for SC2 stated in a comment thread on Deviant Art there is a standing creative directive to no longer use or reference cerebrates as part of "playing nice" with Games Workshop because of something about Tyranids in Warhammer 40k.
Does Kerrigan say "Yes, Cerebrate?" as one of her voice lines? You'd think they'd disable that one.
@@BluePhoenix_ I mean, technically we're both the magistrate, cerebrate, and executor, so she's technically not wrong, she just knows more than everyone else
@@BluePhoenix_ no, in Broodwar her line is just "Yes?"
@@CRSB00 They also change Duran's "Yes, Captain" line to "Cerebrate!" once you play him as Zerg.
@@BluePhoenix_ Does she have the cerebrate before she seizes control of one at the start of the BW Zerg campaign? It seems to me she is operating alone during the first two BW campaigns, barely capable of controlling a small handful of Zerg because of the rest of the cerebrates' control. My impression is that it was the Psi Disruptor that allowed her to separate one of the lesser cerebrates for herself.
@@BluePhoenix_ Also, the "Yes, Cerebrate?" line was indeed changed into "Yes?" in BW. I distinctly remember that happening. In the BW patch it even affected the vanilla Zerg campaign.
9:50 Woah those reavers stacked up to look like a Long Mega Reaver.
LONGver
Mass Recall is a bit silly when it comes to Units Lost.
If I'm not mistaken, Scarabs count as units, and you lose them when they explode. lol
Yeah I notices that too. I also think they don't count as units built but as units lost, because there was one mission where I lost like 100 more units than I built. So the stats can definitely get kinda messed up.
Even though the second Overmind isnt as interesting as the first one, i think it fullfills its role in the story since its main purpose is to intensify the UED threat.
In Vanilla sc the terran were very ignorant and they felt powerless against the protoss and the Zerg. Only in the fall they accomplish something by helping the protoss defeat the overmind.
But when the ued arrived at the coprulu sector, the first thing they do was put the protoss on a lockdown. Then they were able to walk under Tarsonis with no issue whatsoever and they dethroned Mengssk without so much struggle (not caused by duran).
Once in char, they can not only understand how the zerg function, but also they have the technology to pacify and control the overmind itself. So now the rulers of the coprulu sector not only have weaponry able to surpass the protoss but also they have a freaking overmind under they total control.
The reason of why this is do threatening is, specifically, because we know about what the original overmind was capable of doing. Only with the exceptions that the UED wouldnt be able to conttol it without the psi disruptor, the ued had only limited control of the overmind and this new overmind is currently weaker than the original one (but it might have the potential to be equally good)
anyone else unbearably distracted by the endless, ceaseless void in grant's left lens? presumably reflecting a green screen.
I love how Grant says he will build detectors and anti-air.Yet doesn't make a single cannon...
karax is getting new flavors of solarite like a kid finding more kool aid packets
Kerrigan can cloak throughout BW. Actually now that you mention it it's quite odd that Kerrigan can't cloak in SC2, it never occurred to me at the time because of the huge gap between playing BW and when SC2 came out.
I guess the difference is that in SC1 she still had enough of her suit left to use cloak and she discarded it in Sc2 due to arrogance?
I figured it just wore out/ran out of batteries and she just let it go when she like molted it something
Mandatory comment saying I love this playthrough and thank you so much for all the content you provide.
I actually like the idea of a second Overmind. It gives the Zerg a way to recover to their full power. However, not giving Daggoth any role - whether as the basis for the new Overmind or as it's caretaker - in the Brood War story was indeed a waste. It would have been interesting to see him in the UED campaign, including interactions with Duran.
grant's pathological fear of using static defense is equal parts amusing and infuriating.
Hopefully later missions eventually force him to learn to use them.
i never understood why they didn't fortivy that xel naga temple from the last mission, like that is a zerg-b-gone button and seems important, why dud they leave it alone especialy after the zerg already surrounded once
Why not build a city around it, then keep the crystals around just in case you need a delete button, no need to detonate the planet.... *cough* LotV *cough*
@@amateurishauthor2202 my point exactly
Comments out here like a mom when you forget to put on your winter jacket. "Dont forget your detection, sweetie! Remember what the wraiths did to Little Jimmy's mineral line!"
Whenever Selendis looks in the direction of Kerrigan the later goes "Yes, Cerebrate?" and I find this funny.
Force of habit.
The obvious solution is that Daggoth wins a brief civil war and beings to metamorphasize into the new Overmind.
The only thing I want is a mod for SC1 that adds in the Discord voice call sound effects for when people join and leave a call.
Aha yes! The classic reaver weakness. A small cliff.
That purple Solarite is actually an egg, and Karax is going to hatch out of it.
I do believe you were correct in referring to it as the sink cost fallacy, as that refers to a situation in which because you've already invested in a course of action that you then commit to it further regardless of outcome rather than switching course.
Love the purple solorite. Also, I think for the survival rate, maybe it counts scarabs as loses..?
Ooooh! I just realized you can make scouts good! With...um...an arbiter. Okay, they won't be half as good as carriers with an arbiter is, but they wouldn't just evaporate.
"Kerrigan is a liability". I remember that in the original Brood War the speedrun tactic was to simply walk her into Mordor.
Protoss are evolved from trees, so they're just kind of used to resting and sleeping when it gets cold.
Braxis is desert-y in HotS because it was purified by Artanis at the tail end of the Brood War during the mission Resurrection from the N64 version of Starcraft - which Stukov mentioned the events of in Heart of the Swarm, thereby making it an official part of Starcraft lore.
Also, the merits of the Second Overmind plotline aside...why does Zeratul treat a possible second one with so little concern when the first one was treated as a treat of apocalyptic proportions, especially as it nearly succeeded in its goal, and was only stopped by a matter of providence on Tassadar's part?
Daggoth becoming empowered and growing into the new Overmind, or something akin to it, could have been interesting.
Instead it sort of happened entirely ofscreen and we got no personality or real malice from it. It was only there so the UED had something to control.
(Which I also think would have had more weight to it if it WAS Daggoth. Controlling a silent brain thing is one thing, controlling someone we worked with in Episode 2 and that had been an active threat so far in Brood War would have been something else)
I imagine the scarabs inside the reavers are just drinking copiously before their inevitable suicide mission, thus explaining why they're such bad shots.
I agree that the second Overmind storyline is one of the weaker points of Starcraft story, although it could have been interesting if we had got to learn a bit more about it. The first Overmind had its own idea of glory, purpose and all these things, whereas the second Overmind was under the UED's control. I'd have liked to see how twisted a version of the Overmind he'd have made.
the 2nd overmind never talks at all, to us it's just a hunk of meat pretending to be one of the best SC characters.
I think the fallacy you're referring to is the Endowment Effect? Basically, that's where people value things that they own more than things that they don't, and will e.g. pay more to keep something they already have than they would to buy that same thing in the first place.
I can just imagine Starcraft on ice (skating) and the protoss keep slipping and falling cuz they don’t do well with anything cold related lol
Ganna say that Kerrigan is absolutely not a liability here. Razor swarm is incredibly powerful, esp at the first base where they have to come up a ramp to you. She can cloak which helps so much in keeping her safe. They don't usually scan her if you swarm while cloaked.
Those scarabs need a boost real bad. They’re having trouble hitting stationary buildings.
If only Grant knew that Ensnare reveals cloaked units
The reavers have the Hold Fire option. That might be useful so that they don't unload on lone SCV's.
I like the art of the thumbnail!
"Yes, Cerebrate?" -kerrigan, forgetting that shes pretending to work with the protoss now.
Anyway, the second Overmind was never an actual character. it was just a demonstration of how the Cerebrates are useless without their glorious leader, so the only thing they can think of doing is to try to get him back, and how vulnerable this makes them to any manipulator who comes along. That's why Kerrigan destroyed them all and invented broodmothers instead in the four years between Brood War and Wings of Liberty.
So now we know exactly why we couldn't use the Uraj in LOTV, karax saw the solarite in it and stole it.
You're supposed to use the reavers to bust the bunkers from a safe distance. They're conveniently placed way out in front for you
They should have framed Overmind2 as Daggoth forcefully absorbing the powers of the other cerebretes to become the new Overmind (similar how the primal zerg in SC2 absorb essence to become stronger) That way you could have Overmind2 and a known antagonist.
For the produced/killed/lost numbers at the end I wonder if they were counting scarabs as losses? Resulting in the produced 202 vs lost 272 are therefore causing the 0% survival rate?
Just a thought, not sure how to check it though..
i would of loved it if the second overmind was all a ploy for kerrigan to get the other cerebrates killed so she can be the only one in control
SC2: "Kerrigan was evil because Amon was controlling her through the overmind! She's actually a good person!"
SC1: "The Overmind is dead. Whatever warped control it once had over me is gone"
SC2 is so stupid story wise
@@rosameltrozo5889 and she was clearly lying cause the writers like the concept way too fucking much
@@marley7868 so for you which idea is better, she bieng a meat puppet of amon all along, or being one of the overmind or, just pure willing evil cause she likes it
@@Weiswolfe her being evil cause it is what is actively shown over and over again
Karat would love it
It would more sense if protoss freeze only if their shields went down, like in WoL. Then the mission in the ice planet in HotS would be more challenging.
11:32 Oh you needed 1 piece of detection, grant.
/s
Well Dagoth is incharge of the Zerg at least till the New Overmind maturing, and the reason they needed a second one is for the UAD
Mass Recall counts Scarabs and Interceptors as units lost but not units produced so if you use Reavers or Carriers it royally fucks up your stats.
I love that grant is preemptively avoid the comment section
When you lose 272 units while producing 202 of them
Wait a second! That's the Ihan-rii skinset! That Zealot is Ihan-rii!
Endowment effect is the term I think you're looking for, iirc from my college econ classes from ~10 years ago lol.
We must debark for the battlefield.
Grant's webcam went full-Artanis this mission.
I always wonder if Kerrigan had control over Raszagal before she meets the Executor
There is a new death star... i mean overmind do destroy
I like what we have. The ggg archives crowd is somewhat calmer and i want to let you know that i like your (the one i see) personality.
Comment 4 the algorithm and hopefully brighten grants day a little
He will be happy for a new flavor XD
Reaver has been weirdly nerfed into oblivion. That brown SCV tanked 3 direct scarab shots and survived. In StarCraft 1 all 30 scarabs would’ve killed at least factories and command Center, let alone SCV.
Also SC2 assets of applicable building looks better.
Or alternatively, you let a probe pickup crystal and send it to Kerrigan. Yes, probe can pickup crystals.
I think that was just a case of the scarab derping and not dealing any damage when it exploded.
"She lies, she is infested to the core"
At 0:08, I thought you were going to say "A Johnny Quest"!
It would make sense to have deggoth in control of most of the swarm and foster a new overmind
You favorite solarite! Now with terrazine flavor!
The second Overmind plotline would have been much better if the second Overmind was a character that had lines to say. At least have him threaten/beg when UED8 rolls around. And a "thank you" when Zeratul kills him.
I always assumed the new overmind forming worked like the formation of a gravemind in halo where it retained its memories and personality.
The whole idea of the 2nd Overmind leaves me really scratching my head. Like, the Overmind states that in spite of Kerrigan's apparent defiance of the Overmind's will, she is as bound to his will as any cerebrate. If that were true, then she should be onboard with the existence of a new Overmind, but instead, she tries to take control of the Zerg herself. Was the Overmind wrong, or was he lying to keep the cerebrates from freaking out? It doesn't seem like the kind of thing he should even be capable of being wrong about, since he basically reconstructed her entire body cell-by-cell, but then, why lie? He could just say, in as many words, that Kerrigan is his true heir as matriarch of the Swarm, and that should his body fail, she is designed to lead in his place, and that should suffice for his eternally loyal cerebrates.
Then you have to wonder about Kerrigan's role. Is she telling the truth when she says that the Overmind controlled her? It doesn't seem like she is, since she basically admits that she was just leading the Protoss by the nose the whole time. But according to SC2 retcon, I mean, explanation, Amon was supposedly subtly controlling The Overmind and thus Kerrigan, and that the whole point of getting her deinfested and reinfested was so that she could be The Queen of Blades without being under Amon's control. So none of this makes any sense.
Without a current Overmind, why would she be bound to the Overmind’s will? I take it as she’s temporarily free (but still secretly, unknown to her, under Amon’s influence) and can act to keep herself that way - but should there be a new Overmind she would have to submit to it.
idk if I'm remembering correctly, but I think when Zeratul talks to the overmind's corpse, he's like "oh yeah I made Kerrigan to be outside of my control so that Amon couldn't control me and thus her by proxy because of the prophecy or whatever"
@@iskende But he couldn’t make her free of himself entirely, as that would be working directly against Amon. The Overmind made her as free of Amon as he could, and then sent himself on a suicide mission to Aiur, knowing that with him gone Kerrigan would work to free herself fully.
As long as she was under the hierarchy then the Overmind hadn’t created anything that could fight Amon, and Aiur was one of Amon’s main targets, as sending itself there to lead the attack was justified. It was only once the Overmind was dead that Kerrigan could start to act freely.
@@DanStaal Without a current Overmind, why would the Cerabrates be bound to The Overmind's will? The insinuation is that Kerrigan and the Cerebrates are supposed to be more or less interchangeable, according to The Overmind's own assessment. I am trying to account for the discrepancy in their behavior
@@MrGeorgeFlorcus But she is specifically something different than a Cerebrate - their equal, but also something more. A Cerebrate is just a mind created to run the Zerg - likely a creation of Amon in the first place. Kerrigan is a human converted, the Overmind's greatest creation. She can *function* as a Cerebrate, but that's not all she is.
Grant's eyebrow do be disappearing into the void though
Imagine if the daggoth led zerg had hunter killers as enemies you had to fight. Thats gg no re right there.
"She lies! She's infested to the core! I for one will not stand for listening to this!"
Aldaris, I never liked you as a person but I respect your wisdom.
Need the new Overmind for the UED plotline though
I love this series!
24:36 That's choice-supportive bias.
Finally, some ÓÓÓÓÓÓRAŻŻŻŻ action.
P.S. your left eye doesnt look healthy this whole video
I would assume that the Zerg has some kind of backup in case the Overmind would be destroyed, so creating new one is fine with me. But I'm not (emotionally) attached to any Overminds...
I would love a mod that had karax drop pod in crushing karagin at the very end there
I thing it second overmin dis kinda neede since Kerrigan is the overminds ultimate weapon and hope against Amon since he at his peak was bearly able to controle her. Can't see Daggoth finding that kind of psi power to top her defences.
The Fallacy you mention at 24:44 is probably the Endowment Effect. It's the behavioral tendency for people tolike the specific thing they own more than "equivalent" versions of it you don't - for example, the classic result in this field is that subject's price to a mug they are given is significantly higher than the price they'd pay to acquire it before it was given to them.
Ive been scrolling for 4 minutes to find the answer to the question, thank you sir
I think it would have worked a little better if they had maybe made it more explicit, Daggoth IS the new overmind, or at least the dominant intelligence In it, and give it, a scene to interact with or speak, like maybe a scene where its talking to the player cerabrate about stuff before kerrigam cuts the link, just a little window into its character. Then maybe another call later on attempting to call you out or even just begging to die after its control ny the UED.
I feel like GGG only took those Reavers with him to chuckle at how stupid those things are in this version of the game.
At wich episode Grant will remember there is loadign screen to talk over? :D
Sick thumbnail
Imo i really like the SC1 skins in SC2 😅 those Goliaths look good
Werent the Cerebretes parts of the overmind? Them recombing kinda sounded like a failsafe for og overmind if things got belly up
what flavor do y'all think it is?
strawberry, raspberry maybe?
personally I think it's pink lemonade, so basically strawberry with extra steps
1:17 **Aldaris has left the chat**
I think the new Overmind plot is perfect. Though having Daggoth in control of the situation could have been better; Daggoth should have been destroyed by the UED to show that the UED is an extremely powerful force and it's why you needed all the races combined to take them down.
Daggoth should have been the first thing the UED should have destroyed imo though it breaks the order. However, destroying Daggoth in this campaign adds to it as to why the UED had an... Easy time, controlling the infant.
I don't know how the rest of Sc1 plot plays out, but this "second overmind plot" kind of sounds likes it's creating and control o the overmind for daggoth,
So that Daggoth will be the new overmind and have the same control and power as the previous overmind rather than just the power of a cerebrate.
*cries* Stop calling us your Exes' name! We aren't "Chat", we're The Comments!
fortunately, he's started streaming again, so he's back together with his ex.
Survival rate might have something to do with the scarabs, considering you somehow lost more units than you produced
Yeah scarabs count as killed units.