The problem with land destruction is that Green players are still better situated to recover faster - be it from playing lands from graveyards, value pieces like Lotus Corbra, or just more ramp. Wave of Vitriol is similar in that is deals with Field of the Dead, but just empowers all the other landfall cards already in play. It's a tough nut to crack outside of just Zozu effects or something.
I think at the point where they are playing lands out of their graveyard after a big land destruction turn, you can probably call that even considering you can just blow up their other pieces with much greater ease.
Each color being able to play through certain kinds of hate better than others is relatively fair, imho. Different strengths and weaknesses should be innate
It is very important to pack GY hate not just for the GY reanimation decks but because fetch lands and landfall decks recurring their lands via a GY loop
By all means, feel free to timewalk yourself for the brief illusion of parity. I not only welcome it, I ENCOURAGE it. Incidentally, feel free to ignore the 10 4/3 elementals I just made or the 10+ landfall triggers I'll get when I Splendid Reclamation everything back.^^
Yeah but creatures are easy to deal with. I look at it this way: If I blow up your lands, I am opening up the other players to take your creatures out. Every deck should be running creature hate, and if I’m playing against a lands player that is doing this level of BS recursion and the other players can’t interact with creatures, then there is a power disparity at the table and it has nothing to do with the lands strategy. My solution is to convince the table to kill your creatures, with the negotiation that I can take care of your lands. Then we all get to play fair magic again. Once the lands player is slowed down it becomes parity, because the issue is by end of early game they have double the mana of everyone and a board state. Step 1: stop the bleeding Step 2: fix the wound
I was playing Soul of Windgrace the other night and the whole table kept ganging up on me to remove a Glacial Chasm that I kept recurring. And I didn't feel bad. I didn't feel bullied. That was what they NEEDED to do to stop me from winning. I knew it, they knew it, and there weren't any bad feels about it getting removed over and over again. Except maybe that they were tired of having to find answers for it 😉
Land strategies being OP hit me hard a few years back. That's why my 2 strongest decks are Zimone and Dina lands and Korvold lands. IDK if mass land destruction is a great way to deal with it but wasteland and strip mine should be accepted as important pieces to removal packages. Doesnt solve all issues but they certainly make a difference
The best way to deal with landfall is to exile their GY (gets rid of fetches and other lands they'd recur or have milled), and use removal on the landfall payoffs that either assemble blockers, or draw cards. Unfortunately aggression in the early game isn't very common, but the landfall player is def a high priority target to chip at during their first few turns where they do nothing but leave themselves open by ramping
Yeah I’ll blow up all lands if I have too, normally I do that because my Dahretti colorless super friends wins games when the planeswalkers get to Ultimate or If he Dahretti gets to Ultimate, I don’t pull it off often but does happen from time to time when I ramp fast enough to play obliterate
Land decks are only op because of land destruction being stigmatized in casual. Land matters players are suckas knowing this point. Is your deck good? Or are you taking advantage of the fact that your wincon is rarely disrupted 😂
@@RealJohnKimble early in it's release? I remember people trying to stop Omnath decks with that in standard it was kinda funny because it was like opponent just gave me free bounce lands for consistency.
I agree people are getting away with exploiting a loop hole in commander by not being allowed to interact with lands. I see people play mono colored decks with three basic lands now.
The bigger issue is that land decks are not as taboo as say, some other regressive strategies. It should be OK for people to run land ramp as long as it is not getting out of control. People just don’t understand moderation.
@@VexylObbyeverything about your post is wrong and runs counter to a pvp game. There is no such thing as a ‘regressive’ strategy. Getting out of control is the point, if you are playing an effective deck. It is not your responsibility to moderate yourself against your opponents.
I hate to nitpick, but merely thinking I know where the moxfield ad is doesn’t make me a liar, I would have to communicate that in some way in order for me to be liar. Checkmate
I run my Zo-zu on MTGO for all the land/landfall matters deck. Turn 5-6 every one is in their 20s it’s a kick to pilot. They own casual table, they need an answer.
I played a game yesterday where From the Ashes destroyed a large chunk of the table's mana base. If I weren't playing mono-red goblins it would've been so much harder to recover.
i have never had a single person complain after i target remove a cradle or a coffers etc...i think people are a lot more chill than you guys are describing
It doesn't work. Lands decks have 5-10+ ways to recur lands from the graveyard and they always have these effects. All that happens is you go down a land and they get it back the next turn.
In 2015 every single one of my commander decks ran crucible of worlds and also strip mine and ghost quarter. Notably, I also got some fetch lands because khans came out and made them accessible to me. I believe every commander deck genuinely should run crucible, strip or ghost quarters and a few lands that fetch lands. They help fix your drops really well, ensure you dont miss land drops when crucible and a fetch is out. Plus, its land destruction that targets degenerate lands. This has been used to degenerately lock some voltron decks out tho-
Here's the interesting thing: My 5-color The First Sliver Sliver tribal deck runs mostly basic lands and is still surprisingly consistent. The only nonbasic lands my deck runs are Unclaimed Territory, Sliver Hive, Ash Barrens, Exotic Orchard, and Path of Ancestry. Cards like the ones listed in this video would be great for me to run in my deck, sort of as a trap for my opponents.
I love my Windgrace landfall deck. I let people know i'm playing landfall everytime and encourage land destruction. The only problem i have with land destruction is when its everyones lands being destroyed because it slows everyone else down because i have a shit ton of ways to get lands from graveyard.
@@Red_Mag3 great spell. mass LD isnt as terrible to play against as people think. it's just when a good player casts one, all the other players are screwed by it and you pull ahead. i think when new players use them it creates salt because they dont know when to cast them.
@@morgoth2425 100% agree, its usually closed out by my Enchantments/Planeswalkers after that point so I stay miles ahead afterwards and can close out the game
What a pleasant surprise, I just saw you at the restaurant I work at! Funny coincidence considering my friend also saw you at his work a few days ago lol
Mass land destruction should be normalized in commander. In addition to checking land decks, it would make decks that put creatures on the board with the intent of winning with combat damage better, which is something this format needs.
Sounds absolutely terrible. I do not want to add 45 mins - hour or more to my game, rather just scoop, make food and watch the entirety of game of thrones until the Armageddon pod is done
I’m personally fine with blood moon or ruination. It’s not ramping that makes decks strong it’s their ability to fix for their colors early on. I think it’s perfectly fine to slow down the 3+ color decks that run all the sac n pain lands or they just take off before you can get started. Also wasteland and strip mine to get rid of really annoying utility lands.
This! People should be aware that playing decks that are more than 2 colors and having greedy manabases comes with a cost and not expect everyone else to do anything about it. You have a greedy manabase and you take advantage to having access to the best cards in 5 colors? Then assume the risk
I run land destruction more and more everyday. Im so sick of tired of people vandalblasting my rocks when im playing mardu and my ramp is limited to rocks but god forbid i run Armageddon on the same deck to fight against land ramp
I think everyone should include Wasteland and Strip Mine in their decks. 6 removal spells for the lands player along with cards like Generous Gift or Best Within should be enough to keep them in check. It isn't controversial to destroy their lands, it's equivalent to if someone is playing an artifact centric strategy and you destroy their artifacts. You can't just let them do what they want to do.
It doesn't work. Lands decks have so many ways to recur lands that Field of the Dead never stays gone. It comes back a turn later and you're just down a land. You have to have graveyard exile PLUS that land destruction spell and have it all in one turn.
There's a deck in modern I love, uses the borderposts to bounce your lands to hand, turn 3 you slam As Foretold and cast Restore Balance with 0 "lands" on your field
PSA to literally everyone: DO NOT use mass land destruction to punish the lands decks! They WILL have ways to rebuild faster than everyone else and WILL have ways to get their important parts back!
I think your comparison to a red artifact getting hosed by an artifact board wipe was perfect. I play Chiss-Goria, and one well-timed Vandalblast will easily take me out of a game and even remove some lands too. I think it should totally be fine to run some land hate. Decks like Maelstrom Wanderer that just aggressively ramp into threats with Haste need to be controlled
I just built a River Song deck with a sub theme of targeted land removal. So far I have not put From the Ashes in the deck, but I’m thinking about it. (Along with Blood Moon, of course.😂)The benefit of the River Song deck is that if you choose to look for basic replacements, you have to take damage to the face for searching.
I personally love cards like Obsidian Charmaw that do land destruction perfectly well imo. I don’t want mass land destruction, but we do need to normalize and gain access to more targeted land destruction.
I think if lands are getting you down, it's totally fine to run removal. My suggestion would be the druid that lets you tap 7 druids to steal lands from another player.
Print 3 instant and 1 sorcery speed land hate cards, have 1 instant pop 1 basic _or_ 2 special lands, another can pop 1 of any kind, and the other can pop only 1 basic on each player's field. The sorcery can kill exactly 2 of any kind. Problem soved, decks intact
I'm fine with Land Destruction so long as the effect replaces the destroyed land(s) with basic lands. This is so the recipient can still somewhat stay on curve while preventing the powerful lands from being a threat.
Whenever someone plays Rhystic Study, I immediately ask, "can anyone deal with this?" to set the tone that the power card has been played. I should do that with Field of the Dead as well
The real solution is to understand that land strategy decks are one of those taboo styles of decks that we should consider. It should definitely be part of the rule zero conversation. It isn’t that we should just run mass land destruction every single deck.
@@henryarbaugh7255 yes there is such a thing as a taboo strategy. If you and your three friends play a certain way, and one of these four people is playing something nobody else wants to face, that person doesn't get invited back to game night, simple as that. There's no obligation to play with any specific person or deck since it's a casual format, so there's likewise no obligation to better or worsen a deck's power level or theme or strategy except for the purposes of playing with the group of people you've made arrangements to play with
@@sebastianscopa3188I agree there’s no obligation to play with certain people or decks. But it doesn’t make those strategies taboo. It simply means you have a narrower idea of what you find fun in a game of magic. Personally, I think the concept of expecting people to acquiesce to your desires about things you don’t want to see in a game comes off as a little entitled. In a game of chess you couldn’t reasonably expect to tell people not to open with certain gambits, or in an RTS game to not use certain strategies or wait till a certain time until attacking.
@@henryarbaugh7255 That isn't EDH. Play MLD in every one of your decks, and go to an LGS without saying anything about it, and see where that puts you. NOT in a friendly position... You are forgetting the social aspect of this format.
@@VexylObby EDH is a 100 card singleton format with a commander, deck colors restricted by that commander, and a banlist. Nothing beyond that. I’m definitely aware everyone would hate if I had MLD in every deck, and I’m not saying I would even do that because it wouldn’t work with every strategy. But the fact that most people would have a serious problem playing against strategies they dislike is my entire point. I’m saying that people should expect to get interacted with, and that people will play the cards that are strongest for their strategy, and that getting hosed sometimes is just part of the game. Basically I’m saying what Pleasant Kenobi has said in the past, which is that the EDH player base in generally, to a certain degree, has to get gud.
A little surprised you didn’t touch on any of the cards that just allow you to keep up with the player ramping. Almost all in white, but Land Tax, Archeomancer’s Map, and Claim Jumper are solid options. When I’ve run these in flicker decks they seem to do extremely well.
This card actually makes you lose to landfall even faster. They get to play multiple lands per turn since they have so many effects that do this. They get value when lands get played, not out of the mana they produce. Conundrum just lets them have all the land triggers they would ever need. It's like Amulet Titan in Modern, "Bounce land, untap it, tap for 2, bounce it, replay it, make 2...."
The paradox of these wipes, is because it grabs you an equal number of basics, this will trigger landfall where the lands decks will just overwhelm you in value. Hell I'd run them just for that reason AS THE LANDS DECK. I don't think they are as helpful as you think they are. lol
Isn’t Urza’s sylex just Skip your turn, balance… Unless you have 10 mana. Then it’s not, but still rough.. Love From the Ashes, also From the ashes could be a ramp spell? 😂 Side side note! Dopplegang is underplayed. I’ve been casting it like nuts and it is unbeatable.
Y'all forgot to call out my boy Avalanche Riders. Not the best creature out there but he destroys a land on ETB, which is awesome for reanimation decks! Plus with the Echo he gets himself to the graveyard real quick.
Nobody has a problem with someone blowing up their cabal coffers, field of the dead, or nykthos. I play one deck where i combo mycosynth and vandalblast as a wincon, i always warn the table ahead of time, since it is my wincon, no one has had an issue.
Nothing wrong with targeted land destruction. When it comes to mass land destruction in my experience it sucks the fun out of the room the same way overly aggressive control decks do. People want to play the game and when you come to the table to play solitaire you'll soon find yourself alone. My group banned land destruction completely (I've been advocating recently to let targeted destruction in) mostly because we were new to commander and someone dropping a mass land wipe just bogged the game down and made everyone lose interest.
It's why i try to be a bit more off the beaten path when I play landfall decks. My current one is Orzhov, which isn't very traditional for a landfall set up.
I have been running some level of Land Destruction in evey deck since Lord Windgrace was printed. Once a player starts using their lands for value beyond just tapping for mana the lands are fair game for removal.
I usually send my pod your videos but I think I will tuck this one away 😂 my field of the dead already gets hit by the occasionally ghost quarter effect and I don’t need them seeing all these other ways to hate out 3 of my 4 decks LOL 😂 still gonna smash that like button though
I run 3-5 land destruction in all my decks. Though I always use removal that gives them something in return so they're not to salty. I got tired of loosing to Rogue's Passage in my play group 😂.
You see the problem with land decks (speaking as a guy with a Landfall deck being the strongest deck i have) is that recovery for them is easy. And in other forms, like say my friend who uses Windgrace, he has lands Like glaciochasm and specialty lands that just make it difficult to target them
Blowing up the lands doesn't help because the lands deck get the value on them being played, not on them existing. They aren't like artifacts that need to stay in play. Go ahead, blow up all the lands after Field of the Dead has made 10 tokens. You're just guaranteeing you lose then. The effect they need to print are things like Ankh of Mishra that deal damage on extra lands being played. Just staple those onto creatures. "Whenever a land enters the battlefield, if it was not the first land that entered for that player that turn, [something bad happens]," like they discard a card or take 3 damage or something. That's what is needed.
Land decks are powerful because mass land destruction is frowned upon. Print cards that say "Destroy target opponent's lands" and make it white so I can blow out a landfall deck
@@FloydianTheory87 I suppose you could play it as a second copy of Ghost Town, but I tend to find myself already playing 42-46 lands in a landfall deck so hitting my land drops typically isn't a concern for me. In a low land count landfall deck it's probably better
I play Maarika Brutal Gladiator with 2-3 mass land destruction boardwipes. The fiest time I resolved Jokulhops the player literally says: "Well I guess we just lose!" Like he was mad about it and I said "Yeah that's the point?* I swear they looked at me like I had 2 heads lol
The answer is honestly really simple, magic just needs to print the opposite of catch up ramp Far ahead land destruction. Multi target land destruction that only works on the player with the most land. Any kind of tax against the highest land count player.
This just makes me want to play a blue lands deck so i can counter your mld, you put in armageddon, im going to put in 12 Counterspells just to be ready for each other player to have one
8:52 Pretty sure that if anyone did this to any of my decks that are 3+ colors that aren’t specifically lands, I would only have, like, maximum of six lands in my deck. 😂 I tend to run MORE basic lands in my landfall decks, because I like to run Early Harvest. 😂
I run mostly basic lands in my Sliver tribal deck (The First Sliver) just so I can storm off with Hibernation Sliver and Intruder Alarm, then play Second Harvest to get all my basics into play.
Here's how I see it: Game 1- ok that was neat how you built your LF, glad it worked. Game2- ok, you didn't change decks so maybe you have a different win...nope, same thing as before. Game 3- I see you're still not changing decks. Here's your options, either switch up or don't cry when we all single target you into oblivion.
I play a mardu deck with jukkalopps and Armageddon. I tell people flat out when I play it, I won't play it unless someone really makes me have no choice, I may play as a 98 card deck most of the time.....but I have really saddened land decks before
Beezy why hasn't there been an Amber tail cards for a proxy. Or why hasn't WOTC invented an card like that? Great video you guys. KEEP STAYING PAWZITIVE 👍
Don't worry we can play those busted lands like fotd and that'll allow us to play that new colourless counter spell that'll also allow us to kill basically every commander
Can we dunk on enchantress decks next? They are almost as hard to interact with after all and tend to be somewhat taxy/staksy while drawing a new hand every turn.
As a Windgrace player, I feel attacked and reccomended no one watch this video all the information is so wrong definitely don't follow it please I'm begging you MH3 has 2 different land hate cards already I can't handle this.
I have a suggestion: if a group plays the cards suggested (Wave of Vitriol, From the Ashes...etc), it would be good to let the group know a week before the games so that everyone can prepare for it. Mass Land-D is Mass Land-D even if you leave them with 5 or 6 basics. I think it would be a good idea to declare you are playing Mass Land-D before games, especially when playing with strangers. Lastly, can we have a "Voja (or other commanders) decks are powerful" and how to hose them series?
So you should tell your playgroup that you will be playing a certain card in order for them to prepare and thus sabotaging your own card? If you are ao greedy that you don't play basics in order to have utility lands, you should be prepared to be punished for it. Stop the whining in commander already when things don't go exactly as you planned, because things not going your way means things are going great for another player. Mtg is a game where you are punished for your bad decisions, you shouldn't demand to be informed when someone plans to punish you for those the same way you wouldn't expect your opponents to tell you what's in their hand and ask you for permission everytime they play a spell that disrupts your game plan. That's MTG
@@victorperezurbano9504 i don't think informing others, by saying "I'm playing Mass Land-D", before the game is sabotaging myself. It's just what most players have been promoting recently: a truthful pre-game discussion. That way everyone can have a fun and inclusive experience. I put forward constructive suggestions and you consider that "whining"? You sure are sensitive. Maybe you are a competitive player that enjoys "pubstomping" and needs to win to sooth your ego, hence the need to catch everyone off guard by going "oops i blew up all your lands so only i can play now". Sure you win one game, but you are probably going to get "invited" off the table for the next game. So for the good of yourself, and mostly others, please stay to your own play group.
@@tiduschew2156 you are not talking about a pregame discussion, you are talking about telling other players what fair cards you are gonna play ao that they can alter their decks to nullify them. That goes against even playing those cards in the first place. Also, destroying nonbasics in exchange of basics doesn't qualify as MLD unless you were greedy AF when you built your deck, and in that case you deserve to be punished. Your constructive criticism is just a way of saying "I won't play those cards and if someone does and didn't gave me a week to prepare I will be pissed". Really, learn how to not be salty when you are punished for being greedy and rejoice when others are, that's the real sportsmanship that MTG needs.
@@tiduschew2156 also, winning has nothing to do with pubstomping, and of course I enjoy winning in similar power level tables. I swear to you if I am ever blown out by one of those cards what I would do, instead of blaming the person that played them or accusing them of pubstomping, is reconsidering how I build mana bases or accepting that with great greed comes great risk. BTW, how toxic is your playgroup that if someone blows your nonbasics and you are screwed because you chose to abuse the social contract you invite that person off your table? What a manipulative and childish way to react to a game of cards... I am glad in my playgroup we consider blowouts and smart plays fun and we are able to move on and play another game without ostracizing anyone because of our own bad and abusive deckbuilding
@@victorperezurbano9504 look carefully at my first reply. At no point did i mention that i was salty about anything. I was just putting forward a few suggestions and you came in all guns blazing. Also which part about destroying multiple nonbasic lands isn't Mass Land-D? If you are destroying multiple lands, that's MASS destruction by any definition. My suggestion to let playgroups prepare in advance if anyone wants to play MLD is to prevent a player from getting blown out by one such card and sit at the table and watch while others play. That person can have more fun if he knows he should insert a few basic lands. People I play with don't think anyone should be punished for deck building decisions and help one another improve their decks and keep each other in check for fun weekends. I don't think that is toxic, unlike your preference to punish and have fun alone.
If the power level is 8 or more, l will run Armaggedon and Ravages of War. Is simply unfair you have artifacts removal, when l dont play green (l dont play green). "But the game will last forever" . Usually, dont. But you can concede too.
Being a newer Magic player I don't understand the issue with land destruction. Especially when "Cards will resolve that make that worse for you" //" It's just part of the game" But literally so are Armageddon/Blood Moon/ etc. Cherry picking that you don't want your lands destroyed but are okay with "some" land destruction depreciates player agency. Why is it okay to have mass removal of everything except your mana source? I get that people don't want their things taken away, or they don't want the games to drag on forever, or whatever other excuse you have, but it works just like everything else, you should have held your counter spell. I don't understand why we are okay with infinite combos that break the game, and people just say get good and know what to counter/remove but then won't apply it to cards like this. It's the exact same concept, if you don't like it, don't let it resolve. Again this is coming from the eyes of someone who is new to Magic but I must disagree with the entire premise of land destruction being a bad thing. *Edit "It's just a consequence of the game." I hate to just pull direct quotes from the video that corroborate how I feel about the situation but I think it only stands to prove my point.
Something you should understand is that Magic is so vast in its library of cards that there are so many things that can make the game swingy and unbalanced. That is why we have moderation and rule zero conversations to make sure that we have balanced games.
played a From the Ashes, thinking it was fair enough to have everyone get basic lands. turned out the Ur dragon player played no basic lands. so i guess that player learned a valuable lesson that day.
I love land decks and land destruction. Amulet titan is my favorite modern deck. Land destruction, stax, instant wins and combos should be normalized in commander. But the most needed thing to normalize: conceding the game if it's all over. Stop running the clock for no reason. Commander players need to learn how to concede and move on to the next game.
Instant wins and combos are a hard no from me. There’s different ways to play, and that’s not fun for everyone. But I do think the stax part is correct. Every game could benefit from light stax. Makes people think a little more and stay engaged with the game
@marimi46 cedh pushes too far into combo territory where it's essentially the only way to win. All I'm saying is, by turn 10+ everything is on the table.
@@Hapkins-le6xf I still think instant wins are not appropriate for lower power games, regardless of the turn. All that does is invalidate every game action taken up until that point. Why bother?
@@harrisonheppelmann7938 like the millennium calender or hellkite tyrant? What low power games are those too much for? 2010 low power sure, I hear you, but it's 2024.
Once the spell starts resolving, no one gets priority to respond with anything until it finishes so the Scapeshift player sacs and finds lands as it resolves. So if you wanted to flash in an Opposition Agent for example, they just wouldn't sacrifice any lands which effectively just counters the Scapeshift.
idea for a video discussion: do you agree ramp is a fondamental part of magic? otherwise non green commander with cmc>4 would be useless. So why widzard continues to print more and more vandablast effect? It's a big hole in game design, so big. WHY
lotta comments explaining why the lands matter decks benefit most from MLD. ill caveat the video by saying run more GY hate as well cuz the lands decks usually have ways to get them back
Personally I love permanent/land boardwipes as wincons. I run Obliterate and Jokulhaups in my Windgrace deck (as long as Windgrace is out, you usually win on the spot, even moreso if you have some grindy enchantment or Heroic Intervention), and Decree of Annihilation in my Gavi deck (build a board of 20 cat tokens and wipe all lands, hard to lose from there).
@@VexylObby They fortunately don't cost more time, since everyone scoops immediately, fully acknowledging I would win in the following few turns and there's nothing they could do about it. Maybe the only exception is if I have just Windgrace out and they happen to have a removal spell (which I typically try to have a backup plan for before I execute such a play).
@@Lenvyathan Having to scoop immediately like that is atrocious and makes the game feel meaningless. That could make the whole game feel like a waste of time.
I've always felt that cards like Blood Moon or Ghost Quarter were not only reasonable cards to run in your deck but expected of you. I build my decks in case I run into those sort of cards because I know not just land decks but multicolor decks are extremely powerful, far more powerful than 1 or 2 color decks. The idea that people refuse to answer lands at all is such a bad idea. You actively create an environment with a very clear best deck. Imagine if everyone said "Okay, graveyard hate is banned. No graveyard hate cards are allowed in our group." If you don't create your decks to answer what it needs to answer there is a type of deck that will run you over almost unimpeded though. ETB. There are far less answers to ETB triggers than any other strategy... And we need to normalize hate for that as well.
@@VexylObby It should be expect as someone who's most likely to be the target of nonbasic land hate. Mono and Dual color decks desperately need the help when fighting 3+ colors. And attacking greedy mana bases should absolutely be expected. I'm not saying run a dedicated land hate deck. No, that's not fun. But having answers to problematic lands, you should have answers for them.
@@DemonOfMyMind Do they though? There is more of any essential need of in EDH in every color now. Even so, aren't we meant to have fun? Why not talk to people to see if their deck is compatible with your's?
@@VexylObby I've run a lot of events at conventions. You often just can't know that. The Meme of "Oh my deck is a 7" is true. Most people believe their deck is more powerful than it actually is. For your personal group, sure if your group agrees to it yeah. But when talking about open tables at cons and other places rule Zero falls apart so very quickly. Players often have only an hour or two between events and getting to know each person's deck isn't going to be possible. That knowledge only comes with weeks of play with those people. Also, Fun is highly subjective. I don't find nonbasic land hate any less fun than graveyard hate. Yet I've run into players who run 12 pieces of graveyard hate specifically in those events. The equivalent to a dedicated land hate deck in that. Why should graveyard hate, artifact hate, creature hate be okay but non-basic land isn't? I think its fun to build around answers and accept when your deck just folds to certain cards. Its just the way the game works. And yes! One and two color decks are at serious disadvantage compared to 3+. Their available pool of answers is between 60-80% fewer than those 3+ decks. Mana fixing is also exceptionally good, especially now a days. Blood Moon doesn't stop you from playing the game. Ghost quarter doesn't stop you from playing the game. Assassin's Trophy doesn't stop you from playing the game. If your deck hard folds to blood moon that's the risk you took by being greedy with your mana base. Its the same risk I take with my graveyard decks. I know I get hard locked out by Layline of the void or Ashiok, Dream Render. I know my colorless Eldrazi deck gets absolutely demolished by a single Vandalblast or Collector Ouphe. If it happens it happens. There are battlecruiser groups out there. If that's what you want out of magic you can play with them. But Don't get upset when someone drops a back to basics while at an event.
@@DemonOfMyMind Try to make your points more concise. 1) There are totally metrics to how powerful a deck can turn out. Check out EDH Multiverse or other metrics like "How does your deck win?" 2) There is subjectivity, of course. But there are objective points of how games play out. Like how swingy fast mana can make games, or the denial of resources making things able to happen in a game. Those are great foundations for knowing what may or may not be likely fun for other people. It is more common sense than you think. 3) There are so many slots for anything in a deck. And there are more options than any amount of slots any deck of any color can have. There's no excuses anymore. Any color can do any basic necessity now. 4) "Blood Moon doesn't stop you from playing the game." Yes it does. It's cuts off a majority of multicolor options in there theming. Ghost Quarter is an exception because it doesn't mess with so many lands at once. Mana bases are not greedy, what you play them with ARE. People should be able to run flavorful multi color decks that have multiple 2 color spells, etc. Not that they are trying to be busted or anything... And that touches on the problem at the core: MLD hurts everything all at once, even those that are innocent. Targeted land destruction does not. If that targeted land destruction isn't stopping the mass land ramp, then that strategy itself is a problem. And stop appealing to your authority. MLD IS NOT A STANDARD. It is well known for being taboo. Look at the salt list and forums if you need online evidence. I don't care if you "hold events".
I disagree saying bloodmoon is too neiche or only good vs landfall. Im a huge blood moon lover, it handles strong lands like cabal coffers, and it can punish 3c+ players. Im a believer that you should be punished for playing more colors, ive seen decks with NO basics in them and blood moon evens the playing field. Also its an enchantment, and no one packs enough enchantment removal so it sticks around
The problem with land destruction is that Green players are still better situated to recover faster - be it from playing lands from graveyards, value pieces like Lotus Corbra, or just more ramp. Wave of Vitriol is similar in that is deals with Field of the Dead, but just empowers all the other landfall cards already in play. It's a tough nut to crack outside of just Zozu effects or something.
I think at the point where they are playing lands out of their graveyard after a big land destruction turn, you can probably call that even considering you can just blow up their other pieces with much greater ease.
Each color being able to play through certain kinds of hate better than others is relatively fair, imho. Different strengths and weaknesses should be innate
It is very important to pack GY hate not just for the GY reanimation decks but because fetch lands and landfall decks recurring their lands via a GY loop
By all means, feel free to timewalk yourself for the brief illusion of parity. I not only welcome it, I ENCOURAGE it.
Incidentally, feel free to ignore the 10 4/3 elementals I just made or the 10+ landfall triggers I'll get when I Splendid Reclamation everything back.^^
Yeah but creatures are easy to deal with. I look at it this way:
If I blow up your lands, I am opening up the other players to take your creatures out.
Every deck should be running creature hate, and if I’m playing against a lands player that is doing this level of BS recursion and the other players can’t interact with creatures, then there is a power disparity at the table and it has nothing to do with the lands strategy.
My solution is to convince the table to kill your creatures, with the negotiation that I can take care of your lands. Then we all get to play fair magic again.
Once the lands player is slowed down it becomes parity, because the issue is by end of early game they have double the mana of everyone and a board state.
Step 1: stop the bleeding
Step 2: fix the wound
I was playing Soul of Windgrace the other night and the whole table kept ganging up on me to remove a Glacial Chasm that I kept recurring. And I didn't feel bad. I didn't feel bullied. That was what they NEEDED to do to stop me from winning. I knew it, they knew it, and there weren't any bad feels about it getting removed over and over again. Except maybe that they were tired of having to find answers for it 😉
Land strategies being OP hit me hard a few years back. That's why my 2 strongest decks are Zimone and Dina lands and Korvold lands. IDK if mass land destruction is a great way to deal with it but wasteland and strip mine should be accepted as important pieces to removal packages. Doesnt solve all issues but they certainly make a difference
Also, my abzan secret tergrid commander is really hyped for some of these cards XD
The best way to deal with landfall is to exile their GY (gets rid of fetches and other lands they'd recur or have milled), and use removal on the landfall payoffs that either assemble blockers, or draw cards. Unfortunately aggression in the early game isn't very common, but the landfall player is def a high priority target to chip at during their first few turns where they do nothing but leave themselves open by ramping
Yeah I’ll blow up all lands if I have too, normally I do that because my Dahretti colorless super friends wins games when the planeswalkers get to Ultimate or
If he Dahretti gets to Ultimate, I don’t pull it off often but does happen from time to time when I ramp fast enough to play obliterate
Land decks are only op because of land destruction being stigmatized in casual. Land matters players are suckas knowing this point. Is your deck good? Or are you taking advantage of the fact that your wincon is rarely disrupted 😂
Confounding Conundrum stopped seeing play fairly early because while it does stop ramp, it makes landfall decks go crazy.
confounding conundrum is an example where the supposed cure just leads to a worse infection
Fairly early into what? That set is 4ish years old lmao.
@@RealJohnKimble early in it's release? I remember people trying to stop Omnath decks with that in standard it was kinda funny because it was like opponent just gave me free bounce lands for consistency.
I agree people are getting away with exploiting a loop hole in commander by not being allowed to interact with lands. I see people play mono colored decks with three basic lands now.
That’s basically me in my mono white Field of the Dead deck 😂
The bigger issue is that land decks are not as taboo as say, some other regressive strategies. It should be OK for people to run land ramp as long as it is not getting out of control. People just don’t understand moderation.
Just run MLD. Haters will cry about it, but who needs haters?
@@VexylObbyeverything about your post is wrong and runs counter to a pvp game. There is no such thing as a ‘regressive’ strategy. Getting out of control is the point, if you are playing an effective deck. It is not your responsibility to moderate yourself against your opponents.
I have a colorless deck with 0 basic lands lol
edit: oh, and a manascape refractor of course...
I hate to nitpick, but merely thinking I know where the moxfield ad is doesn’t make me a liar, I would have to communicate that in some way in order for me to be liar. Checkmate
Liar!
I run my Zo-zu on MTGO for all the land/landfall matters deck. Turn 5-6 every one is in their 20s it’s a kick to pilot. They own casual table, they need an answer.
As someone who runs a Child of Alara Baby Gates deck, people need to start playing more land removal. Don't make things too easy for me.
I played a game yesterday where From the Ashes destroyed a large chunk of the table's mana base. If I weren't playing mono-red goblins it would've been so much harder to recover.
i have never had a single person complain after i target remove a cradle or a coffers etc...i think people are a lot more chill than you guys are describing
Yeah fr if someone is mad that I'm removing a land that's generating 10+ mana or winning them the game it's hands 😂😂
This is why I run Strip Mine or Wasteland in every deck :^)
It doesn't work. Lands decks have 5-10+ ways to recur lands from the graveyard and they always have these effects. All that happens is you go down a land and they get it back the next turn.
@@JD-gk7eh I'm not trying to stop the lands themed decks, just snipe problematic lands
One card you overlooked that is insane is Dust Bowl. repeated targeted land destruction in a deck that runs crucible of worlds is very good.
it also just got a reprint with awesome new art in Thunder Junction
In 2015 every single one of my commander decks ran crucible of worlds and also strip mine and ghost quarter. Notably, I also got some fetch lands because khans came out and made them accessible to me. I believe every commander deck genuinely should run crucible, strip or ghost quarters and a few lands that fetch lands. They help fix your drops really well, ensure you dont miss land drops when crucible and a fetch is out. Plus, its land destruction that targets degenerate lands. This has been used to degenerately lock some voltron decks out tho-
Here's the interesting thing: My 5-color The First Sliver Sliver tribal deck runs mostly basic lands and is still surprisingly consistent. The only nonbasic lands my deck runs are Unclaimed Territory, Sliver Hive, Ash Barrens, Exotic Orchard, and Path of Ancestry. Cards like the ones listed in this video would be great for me to run in my deck, sort of as a trap for my opponents.
I don't have a single basic in my build. Every land makes at least 2 colors.
Harbinger of the Seas is new MH3 leak that is basically Magus of the Moon for blue.
I love my Windgrace landfall deck. I let people know i'm playing landfall everytime and encourage land destruction. The only problem i have with land destruction is when its everyones lands being destroyed because it slows everyone else down because i have a shit ton of ways to get lands from graveyard.
i like casting obliterate with windgrace out. feels good
I run decree of annihilation because a friend of mine does Gitrog bs, so if I blow up the lands they're staying gone.
@@Red_Mag3 great spell. mass LD isnt as terrible to play against as people think. it's just when a good player casts one, all the other players are screwed by it and you pull ahead. i think when new players use them it creates salt because they dont know when to cast them.
@@morgoth2425 100% agree, its usually closed out by my Enchantments/Planeswalkers after that point so I stay miles ahead afterwards and can close out the game
What a pleasant surprise, I just saw you at the restaurant I work at! Funny coincidence considering my friend also saw you at his work a few days ago lol
Mass land destruction should be normalized in commander. In addition to checking land decks, it would make decks that put creatures on the board with the intent of winning with combat damage better, which is something this format needs.
I have a stack of Armageddons that I give out to people willing to put them in their decks.
@@drakimoto I would put one in my Urza and Zhulodok decks - they have enough mana rocks to ride it out.
Sounds absolutely terrible. I do not want to add 45 mins - hour or more to my game, rather just scoop, make food and watch the entirety of game of thrones until the Armageddon pod is done
Everybody talkin bout how you cant win games with combat damage, meanwhile my isshin runnin through everything including cedh decks 😅😅
@@drakimoto do you ship?
I’m personally fine with blood moon or ruination. It’s not ramping that makes decks strong it’s their ability to fix for their colors early on. I think it’s perfectly fine to slow down the 3+ color decks that run all the sac n pain lands or they just take off before you can get started. Also wasteland and strip mine to get rid of really annoying utility lands.
This! People should be aware that playing decks that are more than 2 colors and having greedy manabases comes with a cost and not expect everyone else to do anything about it. You have a greedy manabase and you take advantage to having access to the best cards in 5 colors? Then assume the risk
I run land destruction more and more everyday. Im so sick of tired of people vandalblasting my rocks when im playing mardu and my ramp is limited to rocks but god forbid i run Armageddon on the same deck to fight against land ramp
fuck em. the more MLD is played the more normalized it will be
I think everyone should include Wasteland and Strip Mine in their decks. 6 removal spells for the lands player along with cards like Generous Gift or Best Within should be enough to keep them in check. It isn't controversial to destroy their lands, it's equivalent to if someone is playing an artifact centric strategy and you destroy their artifacts. You can't just let them do what they want to do.
It doesn't work. Lands decks have so many ways to recur lands that Field of the Dead never stays gone. It comes back a turn later and you're just down a land. You have to have graveyard exile PLUS that land destruction spell and have it all in one turn.
Balance should come back. I will not elaborate
There's a deck in modern I love, uses the borderposts to bounce your lands to hand, turn 3 you slam As Foretold and cast Restore Balance with 0 "lands" on your field
PSA to literally everyone: DO NOT use mass land destruction to punish the lands decks! They WILL have ways to rebuild faster than everyone else and WILL have ways to get their important parts back!
I think your comparison to a red artifact getting hosed by an artifact board wipe was perfect. I play Chiss-Goria, and one well-timed Vandalblast will easily take me out of a game and even remove some lands too. I think it should totally be fine to run some land hate. Decks like Maelstrom Wanderer that just aggressively ramp into threats with Haste need to be controlled
If you land ramp, I wont feel bad about casting Decree of Annihilation in my red enchantress deck.
I just built a River Song deck with a sub theme of targeted land removal. So far I have not put From the Ashes in the deck, but I’m thinking about it. (Along with Blood Moon, of course.😂)The benefit of the River Song deck is that if you choose to look for basic replacements, you have to take damage to the face for searching.
I personally love cards like Obsidian Charmaw that do land destruction perfectly well imo.
I don’t want mass land destruction, but we do need to normalize and gain access to more targeted land destruction.
Yeah I like Volcanic Offering for the same reasons.
I think if lands are getting you down, it's totally fine to run removal.
My suggestion would be the druid that lets you tap 7 druids to steal lands from another player.
Print 3 instant and 1 sorcery speed land hate cards, have 1 instant pop 1 basic _or_ 2 special lands, another can pop 1 of any kind, and the other can pop only 1 basic on each player's field. The sorcery can kill exactly 2 of any kind. Problem soved, decks intact
I'm fine with Land Destruction so long as the effect replaces the destroyed land(s) with basic lands. This is so the recipient can still somewhat stay on curve while preventing the powerful lands from being a threat.
Whenever someone plays Rhystic Study, I immediately ask, "can anyone deal with this?" to set the tone that the power card has been played. I should do that with Field of the Dead as well
The real solution is to understand that land strategy decks are one of those taboo styles of decks that we should consider. It should definitely be part of the rule zero conversation.
It isn’t that we should just run mass land destruction every single deck.
There is no such thing as a taboo strategy. There are only people who refuse to evolve their decks to deal with developing threats.
@@henryarbaugh7255 yes there is such a thing as a taboo strategy. If you and your three friends play a certain way, and one of these four people is playing something nobody else wants to face, that person doesn't get invited back to game night, simple as that. There's no obligation to play with any specific person or deck since it's a casual format, so there's likewise no obligation to better or worsen a deck's power level or theme or strategy except for the purposes of playing with the group of people you've made arrangements to play with
@@sebastianscopa3188I agree there’s no obligation to play with certain people or decks. But it doesn’t make those strategies taboo. It simply means you have a narrower idea of what you find fun in a game of magic. Personally, I think the concept of expecting people to acquiesce to your desires about things you don’t want to see in a game comes off as a little entitled. In a game of chess you couldn’t reasonably expect to tell people not to open with certain gambits, or in an RTS game to not use certain strategies or wait till a certain time until attacking.
@@henryarbaugh7255 That isn't EDH. Play MLD in every one of your decks, and go to an LGS without saying anything about it, and see where that puts you. NOT in a friendly position...
You are forgetting the social aspect of this format.
@@VexylObby EDH is a 100 card singleton format with a commander, deck colors restricted by that commander, and a banlist. Nothing beyond that. I’m definitely aware everyone would hate if I had MLD in every deck, and I’m not saying I would even do that because it wouldn’t work with every strategy. But the fact that most people would have a serious problem playing against strategies they dislike is my entire point. I’m saying that people should expect to get interacted with, and that people will play the cards that are strongest for their strategy, and that getting hosed sometimes is just part of the game. Basically I’m saying what Pleasant Kenobi has said in the past, which is that the EDH player base in generally, to a certain degree, has to get gud.
A little surprised you didn’t touch on any of the cards that just allow you to keep up with the player ramping. Almost all in white, but Land Tax, Archeomancer’s Map, and Claim Jumper are solid options. When I’ve run these in flicker decks they seem to do extremely well.
You either die a Green ramper or live long enough to White ramp with them
I bought a confounding conundrum for $1 aud, it was such a bang for you buck card, also got mangara the diplomat for the same price.
This card actually makes you lose to landfall even faster. They get to play multiple lands per turn since they have so many effects that do this. They get value when lands get played, not out of the mana they produce. Conundrum just lets them have all the land triggers they would ever need. It's like Amulet Titan in Modern, "Bounce land, untap it, tap for 2, bounce it, replay it, make 2...."
The paradox of these wipes, is because it grabs you an equal number of basics, this will trigger landfall where the lands decks will just overwhelm you in value. Hell I'd run them just for that reason AS THE LANDS DECK. I don't think they are as helpful as you think they are. lol
Isn’t Urza’s sylex just
Skip your turn, balance…
Unless you have 10 mana. Then it’s not, but still rough..
Love From the Ashes, also From the ashes could be a ramp spell? 😂
Side side note! Dopplegang is underplayed. I’ve been casting it like nuts and it is unbeatable.
Damn. That mox ad was so smooth
Y'all forgot to call out my boy Avalanche Riders. Not the best creature out there but he destroys a land on ETB, which is awesome for reanimation decks! Plus with the Echo he gets himself to the graveyard real quick.
I just use my energy cards from pokemon tcg bulk and use mass land destruction 🤷🏻♂️ can’t destroy energy
Nobody has a problem with someone blowing up their cabal coffers, field of the dead, or nykthos. I play one deck where i combo mycosynth and vandalblast as a wincon, i always warn the table ahead of time, since it is my wincon, no one has had an issue.
Nothing wrong with targeted land destruction. When it comes to mass land destruction in my experience it sucks the fun out of the room the same way overly aggressive control decks do. People want to play the game and when you come to the table to play solitaire you'll soon find yourself alone. My group banned land destruction completely (I've been advocating recently to let targeted destruction in) mostly because we were new to commander and someone dropping a mass land wipe just bogged the game down and made everyone lose interest.
It's why i try to be a bit more off the beaten path when I play landfall decks. My current one is Orzhov, which isn't very traditional for a landfall set up.
in my experience landfall is basically just spellslinger but you can't counterspell it
I have been running some level of Land Destruction in evey deck since Lord Windgrace was printed. Once a player starts using their lands for value beyond just tapping for mana the lands are fair game for removal.
I bought 10 copies of techtonic edge and put them in all my mono and 2 color decks and gave the rest to my friends to stop child of alara.
I think Tsabo's Web affects channel lands and Triomes which is pretty good.
Normalize winter orb
I usually send my pod your videos but I think I will tuck this one away 😂 my field of the dead already gets hit by the occasionally ghost quarter effect and I don’t need them seeing all these other ways to hate out 3 of my 4 decks LOL 😂 still gonna smash that like button though
That makes up for it 😂👍🏻
Always run a Strip Mine. You can use it as a colorless and I'm sure at least one of your three opponents will try to politic with ya :)
I run 3-5 land destruction in all my decks. Though I always use removal that gives them something in return so they're not to salty. I got tired of loosing to Rogue's Passage in my play group 😂.
I run from the ashes over ruination in my temur list. Have like 20+ basics too so I’m never hurt by it.
You see the problem with land decks (speaking as a guy with a Landfall deck being the strongest deck i have) is that recovery for them is easy. And in other forms, like say my friend who uses Windgrace, he has lands Like glaciochasm and specialty lands that just make it difficult to target them
Blowing up the lands doesn't help because the lands deck get the value on them being played, not on them existing. They aren't like artifacts that need to stay in play. Go ahead, blow up all the lands after Field of the Dead has made 10 tokens. You're just guaranteeing you lose then. The effect they need to print are things like Ankh of Mishra that deal damage on extra lands being played. Just staple those onto creatures. "Whenever a land enters the battlefield, if it was not the first land that entered for that player that turn, [something bad happens]," like they discard a card or take 3 damage or something. That's what is needed.
cycling is such a great mechanic
Land decks are powerful because mass land destruction is frowned upon. Print cards that say "Destroy target opponent's lands" and make it white so I can blow out a landfall deck
Shoutout to Soul of Windgrace, my preferred lands commander. Also Undiscovered Paradise is a slept on land.
It seems really good in 4-5 colour Landfall decks
It's good in any landfall deck. It assures at least 1 landfall trigger every single turn no matter what you draw or play.
@@FloydianTheory87 I suppose you could play it as a second copy of Ghost Town, but I tend to find myself already playing 42-46 lands in a landfall deck so hitting my land drops typically isn't a concern for me.
In a low land count landfall deck it's probably better
I play Maarika Brutal Gladiator with 2-3 mass land destruction boardwipes. The fiest time I resolved Jokulhops the player literally says: "Well I guess we just lose!" Like he was mad about it and I said "Yeah that's the point?* I swear they looked at me like I had 2 heads lol
I have a fun and fair landfall deck that does fun stuff but doesn't go too hard.
Moxfield: 'This Land is My Land'
The answer is honestly really simple, magic just needs to print the opposite of catch up ramp
Far ahead land destruction. Multi target land destruction that only works on the player with the most land.
Any kind of tax against the highest land count player.
Finally. This archtype has been driving me fucking crazy
This just makes me want to play a blue lands deck so i can counter your mld, you put in armageddon, im going to put in 12 Counterspells just to be ready for each other player to have one
8:52 Pretty sure that if anyone did this to any of my decks that are 3+ colors that aren’t specifically lands, I would only have, like, maximum of six lands in my deck. 😂
I tend to run MORE basic lands in my landfall decks, because I like to run Early Harvest. 😂
I run mostly basic lands in my Sliver tribal deck (The First Sliver) just so I can storm off with Hibernation Sliver and Intruder Alarm, then play Second Harvest to get all my basics into play.
My only landfall deck is Tatyova Steward of Tides, I turn my lands into creatures, it's a pretty fair landfall deck
Here's how I see it:
Game 1- ok that was neat how you built your LF, glad it worked.
Game2- ok, you didn't change decks so maybe you have a different win...nope, same thing as before.
Game 3- I see you're still not changing decks. Here's your options, either switch up or don't cry when we all single target you into oblivion.
These decks are why I love Blood Moon/Ruination 😈
I play a mardu deck with jukkalopps and Armageddon. I tell people flat out when I play it, I won't play it unless someone really makes me have no choice, I may play as a 98 card deck most of the time.....but I have really saddened land decks before
Beezy why hasn't there been an Amber tail cards for a proxy. Or why hasn't WOTC invented an card like that? Great video you guys. KEEP STAYING PAWZITIVE 👍
Wave of Vitreol in my Mazirek Deck just won me so many games 😅
I try to keep 2-3 of each basic in my deck if it’s a 5 color.
Could Stax and Hatebears work as an effective counter to Lands decks?
Omnath laughs in the face of Wave of Vitriol and From the Ashes.
Don't worry we can play those busted lands like fotd and that'll allow us to play that new colourless counter spell that'll also allow us to kill basically every commander
Blood Sun is so busted when combined with Lotus Vale, Lotus field and Scorched Ruins for no drawback turbo ramp....it's totally worth $0.22
And here I am sleeving up Armageddon for my yuma deck
Can we dunk on enchantress decks next? They are almost as hard to interact with after all and tend to be somewhat taxy/staksy while drawing a new hand every turn.
This is a Zozu, the Punisher appreciation comment 🔥 ⚡️
Price of progress is hilarious in Indoraptor lol
Also, run a Strip Mine.
As a Windgrace player, I feel attacked and reccomended no one watch this video all the information is so wrong definitely don't follow it please I'm begging you MH3 has 2 different land hate cards already I can't handle this.
I have a suggestion: if a group plays the cards suggested (Wave of Vitriol, From the Ashes...etc), it would be good to let the group know a week before the games so that everyone can prepare for it.
Mass Land-D is Mass Land-D even if you leave them with 5 or 6 basics. I think it would be a good idea to declare you are playing Mass Land-D before games, especially when playing with strangers.
Lastly, can we have a "Voja (or other commanders) decks are powerful" and how to hose them series?
So you should tell your playgroup that you will be playing a certain card in order for them to prepare and thus sabotaging your own card? If you are ao greedy that you don't play basics in order to have utility lands, you should be prepared to be punished for it. Stop the whining in commander already when things don't go exactly as you planned, because things not going your way means things are going great for another player. Mtg is a game where you are punished for your bad decisions, you shouldn't demand to be informed when someone plans to punish you for those the same way you wouldn't expect your opponents to tell you what's in their hand and ask you for permission everytime they play a spell that disrupts your game plan. That's MTG
@@victorperezurbano9504 i don't think informing others, by saying "I'm playing Mass Land-D", before the game is sabotaging myself. It's just what most players have been promoting recently: a truthful pre-game discussion. That way everyone can have a fun and inclusive experience.
I put forward constructive suggestions and you consider that "whining"? You sure are sensitive.
Maybe you are a competitive player that enjoys "pubstomping" and needs to win to sooth your ego, hence the need to catch everyone off guard by going "oops i blew up all your lands so only i can play now". Sure you win one game, but you are probably going to get "invited" off the table for the next game.
So for the good of yourself, and mostly others, please stay to your own play group.
@@tiduschew2156 you are not talking about a pregame discussion, you are talking about telling other players what fair cards you are gonna play ao that they can alter their decks to nullify them. That goes against even playing those cards in the first place. Also, destroying nonbasics in exchange of basics doesn't qualify as MLD unless you were greedy AF when you built your deck, and in that case you deserve to be punished. Your constructive criticism is just a way of saying "I won't play those cards and if someone does and didn't gave me a week to prepare I will be pissed". Really, learn how to not be salty when you are punished for being greedy and rejoice when others are, that's the real sportsmanship that MTG needs.
@@tiduschew2156 also, winning has nothing to do with pubstomping, and of course I enjoy winning in similar power level tables. I swear to you if I am ever blown out by one of those cards what I would do, instead of blaming the person that played them or accusing them of pubstomping, is reconsidering how I build mana bases or accepting that with great greed comes great risk. BTW, how toxic is your playgroup that if someone blows your nonbasics and you are screwed because you chose to abuse the social contract you invite that person off your table? What a manipulative and childish way to react to a game of cards... I am glad in my playgroup we consider blowouts and smart plays fun and we are able to move on and play another game without ostracizing anyone because of our own bad and abusive deckbuilding
@@victorperezurbano9504 look carefully at my first reply. At no point did i mention that i was salty about anything. I was just putting forward a few suggestions and you came in all guns blazing.
Also which part about destroying multiple nonbasic lands isn't Mass Land-D? If you are destroying multiple lands, that's MASS destruction by any definition.
My suggestion to let playgroups prepare in advance if anyone wants to play MLD is to prevent a player from getting blown out by one such card and sit at the table and watch while others play. That person can have more fun if he knows he should insert a few basic lands. People I play with don't think anyone should be punished for deck building decisions and help one another improve their decks and keep each other in check for fun weekends. I don't think that is toxic, unlike your preference to punish and have fun alone.
If the power level is 8 or more, l will run Armaggedon and Ravages of War.
Is simply unfair you have artifacts removal, when l dont play green (l dont play green).
"But the game will last forever" . Usually, dont. But you can concede too.
Being a newer Magic player I don't understand the issue with land destruction. Especially when "Cards will resolve that make that worse for you" //" It's just part of the game"
But literally so are Armageddon/Blood Moon/ etc. Cherry picking that you don't want your lands destroyed but are okay with "some" land destruction depreciates player agency. Why is it okay to have mass removal of everything except your mana source? I get that people don't want their things taken away, or they don't want the games to drag on forever, or whatever other excuse you have, but it works just like everything else, you should have held your counter spell. I don't understand why we are okay with infinite combos that break the game, and people just say get good and know what to counter/remove but then won't apply it to cards like this. It's the exact same concept, if you don't like it, don't let it resolve.
Again this is coming from the eyes of someone who is new to Magic but I must disagree with the entire premise of land destruction being a bad thing.
*Edit
"It's just a consequence of the game."
I hate to just pull direct quotes from the video that corroborate how I feel about the situation but I think it only stands to prove my point.
Something you should understand is that Magic is so vast in its library of cards that there are so many things that can make the game swingy and unbalanced.
That is why we have moderation and rule zero conversations to make sure that we have balanced games.
I run ghost quarter, tec-edge, or strip mine in almost every single deck I build. They’re free rolls
played a From the Ashes, thinking it was fair enough to have everyone get basic lands. turned out the Ur dragon player played no basic lands.
so i guess that player learned a valuable lesson that day.
I love land decks and land destruction. Amulet titan is my favorite modern deck.
Land destruction, stax, instant wins and combos should be normalized in commander.
But the most needed thing to normalize: conceding the game if it's all over. Stop running the clock for no reason. Commander players need to learn how to concede and move on to the next game.
Just play cedh then, all of those things are absolutely normalized in cedh
Instant wins and combos are a hard no from me. There’s different ways to play, and that’s not fun for everyone. But I do think the stax part is correct. Every game could benefit from light stax. Makes people think a little more and stay engaged with the game
@marimi46 cedh pushes too far into combo territory where it's essentially the only way to win. All I'm saying is, by turn 10+ everything is on the table.
@@Hapkins-le6xf I still think instant wins are not appropriate for lower power games, regardless of the turn. All that does is invalidate every game action taken up until that point. Why bother?
@@harrisonheppelmann7938 like the millennium calender or hellkite tyrant? What low power games are those too much for? 2010 low power sure, I hear you, but it's 2024.
If people can cast spells to destroy all artifacts or creatures, mana rocks and mana dorks respectively, it's the same as land destruction.
Since its not one sentence.. can you respond to sac land part of scapeshift to make opponent sac then not be able to fetch?
Once the spell starts resolving, no one gets priority to respond with anything until it finishes so the Scapeshift player sacs and finds lands as it resolves. So if you wanted to flash in an Opposition Agent for example, they just wouldn't sacrifice any lands which effectively just counters the Scapeshift.
Huge w
Psst. Keldon Firebombers. Psst. Tectonic Hellion. Psst. Volcanic Offering.
LANDS FTW, I CAST FOREST -Nissa Enjoyer
idea for a video discussion: do you agree ramp is a fondamental part of magic? otherwise non green commander with cmc>4 would be useless. So why widzard continues to print more and more vandablast effect? It's a big hole in game design, so big. WHY
lotta comments explaining why the lands matter decks benefit most from MLD. ill caveat the video by saying run more GY hate as well cuz the lands decks usually have ways to get them back
"Damn kids, GET OFF MY LAWN!!"
Personally I love permanent/land boardwipes as wincons. I run Obliterate and Jokulhaups in my Windgrace deck (as long as Windgrace is out, you usually win on the spot, even moreso if you have some grindy enchantment or Heroic Intervention), and Decree of Annihilation in my Gavi deck (build a board of 20 cat tokens and wipe all lands, hard to lose from there).
But isn't Windgrace in this particular example the problem deck?
Those are not win cons, they just hose every single person at the table and they cost the game more time.
@@VexylObby They fortunately don't cost more time, since everyone scoops immediately, fully acknowledging I would win in the following few turns and there's nothing they could do about it. Maybe the only exception is if I have just Windgrace out and they happen to have a removal spell (which I typically try to have a backup plan for before I execute such a play).
@@Blacklodge_Willy Definitely, but it does hose opposing land decks too!
@@Lenvyathan Having to scoop immediately like that is atrocious and makes the game feel meaningless. That could make the whole game feel like a waste of time.
6 seconds in and im thinking i need many more lands
I've always felt that cards like Blood Moon or Ghost Quarter were not only reasonable cards to run in your deck but expected of you. I build my decks in case I run into those sort of cards because I know not just land decks but multicolor decks are extremely powerful, far more powerful than 1 or 2 color decks. The idea that people refuse to answer lands at all is such a bad idea. You actively create an environment with a very clear best deck. Imagine if everyone said "Okay, graveyard hate is banned. No graveyard hate cards are allowed in our group."
If you don't create your decks to answer what it needs to answer there is a type of deck that will run you over almost unimpeded though. ETB. There are far less answers to ETB triggers than any other strategy... And we need to normalize hate for that as well.
That should definitely not be expected, and she totally be part of the real zero conversation.
@@VexylObby It should be expect as someone who's most likely to be the target of nonbasic land hate. Mono and Dual color decks desperately need the help when fighting 3+ colors. And attacking greedy mana bases should absolutely be expected. I'm not saying run a dedicated land hate deck. No, that's not fun. But having answers to problematic lands, you should have answers for them.
@@DemonOfMyMind Do they though? There is more of any essential need of in EDH in every color now.
Even so, aren't we meant to have fun? Why not talk to people to see if their deck is compatible with your's?
@@VexylObby I've run a lot of events at conventions. You often just can't know that. The Meme of "Oh my deck is a 7" is true. Most people believe their deck is more powerful than it actually is. For your personal group, sure if your group agrees to it yeah. But when talking about open tables at cons and other places rule Zero falls apart so very quickly. Players often have only an hour or two between events and getting to know each person's deck isn't going to be possible. That knowledge only comes with weeks of play with those people.
Also, Fun is highly subjective. I don't find nonbasic land hate any less fun than graveyard hate. Yet I've run into players who run 12 pieces of graveyard hate specifically in those events. The equivalent to a dedicated land hate deck in that. Why should graveyard hate, artifact hate, creature hate be okay but non-basic land isn't? I think its fun to build around answers and accept when your deck just folds to certain cards. Its just the way the game works.
And yes! One and two color decks are at serious disadvantage compared to 3+. Their available pool of answers is between 60-80% fewer than those 3+ decks. Mana fixing is also exceptionally good, especially now a days. Blood Moon doesn't stop you from playing the game. Ghost quarter doesn't stop you from playing the game. Assassin's Trophy doesn't stop you from playing the game. If your deck hard folds to blood moon that's the risk you took by being greedy with your mana base. Its the same risk I take with my graveyard decks. I know I get hard locked out by Layline of the void or Ashiok, Dream Render. I know my colorless Eldrazi deck gets absolutely demolished by a single Vandalblast or Collector Ouphe. If it happens it happens.
There are battlecruiser groups out there. If that's what you want out of magic you can play with them. But Don't get upset when someone drops a back to basics while at an event.
@@DemonOfMyMind
Try to make your points more concise.
1) There are totally metrics to how powerful a deck can turn out. Check out EDH Multiverse or other metrics like "How does your deck win?"
2) There is subjectivity, of course. But there are objective points of how games play out. Like how swingy fast mana can make games, or the denial of resources making things able to happen in a game. Those are great foundations for knowing what may or may not be likely fun for other people. It is more common sense than you think.
3) There are so many slots for anything in a deck. And there are more options than any amount of slots any deck of any color can have. There's no excuses anymore. Any color can do any basic necessity now.
4) "Blood Moon doesn't stop you from playing the game." Yes it does. It's cuts off a majority of multicolor options in there theming. Ghost Quarter is an exception because it doesn't mess with so many lands at once. Mana bases are not greedy, what you play them with ARE. People should be able to run flavorful multi color decks that have multiple 2 color spells, etc. Not that they are trying to be busted or anything...
And that touches on the problem at the core: MLD hurts everything all at once, even those that are innocent. Targeted land destruction does not. If that targeted land destruction isn't stopping the mass land ramp, then that strategy itself is a problem.
And stop appealing to your authority. MLD IS NOT A STANDARD. It is well known for being taboo. Look at the salt list and forums if you need online evidence. I don't care if you "hold events".
Really surprised how sweaty and aloof the viewer base can be here...
I disagree saying bloodmoon is too neiche or only good vs landfall. Im a huge blood moon lover, it handles strong lands like cabal coffers, and it can punish 3c+ players. Im a believer that you should be punished for playing more colors, ive seen decks with NO basics in them and blood moon evens the playing field. Also its an enchantment, and no one packs enough enchantment removal so it sticks around
I do agree that as they keep making more lands matter cards the social thing about land destruction needs to be put under review
The top of the meta has no problem with lands.
Primal Order