As Mentioned on the Show! Tickets have since gone on sale for CCBB in Ottawa, Ontario! $175 CAD GETS YOU: A legit delicious lunch both days. 6 Rounds of HOT AND STEAMY OLD WORLD ACTION Played on gorgeous tables and terrain A very tasteful and excellent comp pack. Girthy Prize Support Access to the legendary Gamer Garage sale A top tier Convention Centre venue that you can literally walk to from the airport. The opportunity to make friends that last a life time... awww. LET'S GOOOOOO www.bestcoastpairings.com/event/FMMH5VQR19
As a beginner ToW player who lives in Ottawa, thank you very much for bringing up the CCBB. I had no idea this event existed until I heard about it on your show.
I get that they have a different playstyle and hurt with the short movement... however a $40 box of oathmark models gets you 260 points theres tons of 3d prints around it's just super easy to collect
If you really want to have fun with Dwarfs, you can mess around with house rule units that are available from 3rd parties. Bear riders. Chariots. I kit bashed a Dwarf APC out of Bren Gun Carrier model.
@@markysgeeklab8783 yeah. "Dreadspears", "Drakespawn Knights", etc. I just open Cities of Sigmar and Daughters of Khaine on the website and scroll through.
Rating feels low for dark elves. A lot of their latter day WHFB plastic kits are still fantastic, and there's just something iconic about their spikey armor, their draconic/raptor cavalry, the witch elves, the cauldron, just all of it, and much of it is either still available from GW or not too pricey on the secondary market.. Yeah, lots of mirror/parallel counterparts with high elves, but that was part of the appeal. 'C' isn't a totally unfair rating, but personally I'd put them in B.
I think it's more that the rules are really bland compared to the other elves. It's one of those cases where it's very clear the legends list didn't get the same care as the "real" army lists.
Saying that they are the smae as high elves is also a far fetch. Ofc they will be more smilar to each other than to an undead army, but strategically speaking they are opposites. HE play on close, solid formations whereas DE don't give a fuck about it. Just look at the amount of unarmoured/uncontrollable units.
Ogres: I'm going with a mix of old school Citadel lead models, plastic landsknecht ogres, and 3D prints to make a more "civilized" ogre army (using halflings as gnoblers).
Beastmen should be S tier, and Val wanting to put them in B-tier alongside their mortal enemies, the Wood Elves, is outrageous. Regards, an unbiased reviewer
Blindsided by the Dark Elves take. Damn. You can buy 90% of the range from GW still. Warriors with Spears/Swords/Crossbows, Witch Elves/Sisters of Slaughter, Blackguard/Executioners, Corsairs, Dark Riders/Doomfire Warlocks, Cauldron of Blood/Bloodwrack Shrine, Cold Ones, Scourgerunner/Cold One Chariots, Black Dragon, Hydra/Kharibdyss, Assassin, Sorceress and they even have AoS stuff like the Melusai (Medusas) and the flying Witch Elves can be used as Harpies. I think they are THE most evil and brutal faction in Fantasy. By far. I can't imagine fantasy without that threat. But maybe I'm bias, currently building an army... but damn lol
@BananenbaumEY yeah, I consider Skaven on the same tier of evil. It's just the bastardisation of the regal immortal elf. Just takes it that little bit further, in my opinion.
An important note for anyone using new AoS miniatures of Seraphon to port into OW as Lizardmen: You will need some tactical rocks to raise random Saurus Warriors up so their tail fits between the legs of the warrior behind them as you rank them up. Spear loadout makes this easier as the clubs are clunky. I recommend you find 60x90 Unit Filler bases to mitigate this annoyance while ranking a unit up. Aggradon lancers will be very expensive if you want to proxy them for Cold Ones. They fit the cavalry bases and rank up with some shouldering, but are large. Lizardmen is rewarding. Play it if you can.
Dark Elves are actually SUPER easy to get hold of from GW! Most infantry and Cavalry is in cities of sigmar, but there is also loads in Daughters of Khaine too. It's very easy to slap together a variety of 2k lists using easily accessible kits. I agree with them being a bit too 1-1 with High Elves, but the flip side of that is, should the army be obliterated entirely in a future update, you can run them as the High Elf equivalent. Warriors = Warriros Executioners = Sword Masters Black Guard = Phoenox Guard etc. If you like the look, I think they're a cool choice.
Disagreeing with your assessment of empire though, they have some of the largest rosters and are one of the factions with the most and best 3rd party models. The issue is just that most people find humans in a fantasy setting boring but the people playing them love the optics. Rules wise they are not the best definitely but imo decent. With the playstyle however, you can do almost everything, infantry, shooting, monsters, kav, warmachines.... every archetype. Lizardmen and Ogres above them in the ranking are a bit much I think, ogres are auch a one trick pony, same as dwarves. Empire are comparable to lizardmen and skaven in their diversity, are not core but therefore more models available so same tier for me + with empire you can literally learn and play every aspect of the game.
@@michaelf.7339as an Empire player for over 15 years (I stopped playing during the AOS times) this edition of Empire is very much the worst. Just becausebour roster has options for most playstyles, does not mean our roster can do any of then well. Usually, Empire excels as a Jack of all Trades / Combined arms list… except this edition it can’t even do that. The core of the problem is core. Empire Core choices are the worst they have ever been. The other problems, are our artillery is severely nerfed in many ways this edition, which was usually our equaliser against dragons, and now we have no real answer. Lastly, half our characters are useless. In particular, Warrior Priests, one of the most iconic characters are terrible now.
Phenomenal video, I was absolutely beaming with pride at one stage glancing over at all of my individual heraldry designs of my fully painted Bretonnia army haha
Re: TK Skeletons looking derpy - As TOW launch was approaching, and finding out that my once planned 6th edition Beastman Army wouldn't be posisble from the Ravening Hordes book (still holding out for the arcane journal...) I decided to go with Tomb Kings, and as more and more of the new models were shown off, it became clear that the basic skeleton kits weren't being redone, I got more and more upset about how derpy the skeletons looked in pictures. But honestly, after building and painting them all they honestly don't look all that bad in person. That's not to say the sculpts couldn't be improved - but I'd almost be worried that newer sculpts would add details that would take away from the spray/wash/drybrush aspect of the chaff units... Re: Dark Elves just being spiky High Elves - while some aspects of their models might be spiky mirrors of their high elven cousins, I think the high elf vs dark elf story is far too intrinsic to the WHFB setting to just off handedly say they should be deleted from the game. But most importantly, IF Games Workshop do bring back the renegade/legends factions, for the love of all things holy PLEASE bring back the fat cow cold ones rather than the skinny raptors!
I'm doing classic vamp counts, and im' glad they reprinted these derpy skellies as absent the egypt bits they are old school vamp coutns skellies that are expensive elseways. I was able to do a skelly heavy army of them + old metal command and lich/wight models and it kicks ass
On the one hand Val is entirely correct that Dark Elves are kinda just dark mirrors of High Elves (Phoenix/Black Guard, Swordmasters/Executioners, White Lions/Corsairs (they both have cloaks!)). On the other hand tell me Cold One Knights aren't amazing. High Elves get dudes on horses who wish they were riding dragons, Dark Elves get dudes riding poisonous lizards.
This was the video that made me decide to start a chorf army. Really happy to see that a deep dive was put out today. Going to dig into that on my long run tomorrow.
I’ve been following the channel and watching your videos starting around the launch of The Old World, and I just want to say a genuine thank you for all of the great info and entertainment. It really feels like being part of a community here. Anyway, after deliberating over one of the army boxes since launch and following some ups, downs and personal victories in the past couple of weeks, I went out today and treated myself to the Tomb Kings box and can’t wait to get started! Apologies for the ramble, cheers again and stay Square Based!
Cracking show! I do have one point to make - if you wanted all original GW models then yes CDs (are a very difficult to collect) but a mix of a few originals and the amazing 3d sculpts means this is a very easy army to obtain. As you said their rules provide a huge amount of play styles. Wood Elves and Empire are certainly harder options and probably won't be available for a while.
I had no interest in old world until me and my buddy were playing AoS yesterday and "Old World" entered both our brains like inception because he had to use a movement tray to move 40 clanrats. So here I am devouring old world content, thanks Rob and Val!
I agree with Lizards being Mid-tier. Their magic I don't think feels as strong as it should as Slanns are expensive and you really have to pay for casting bonuses. Heavy infantry across the board doesn't feel great so Saurus are just fine for me but skinks are awesome. Currently trying out a double Engine and Carno list which did really well into WoC last time out...
Lizardmen was the first army I ever owned back when the first released and I've been a fan ever since. Really think I've got to go with the classic dinosaur tank for favorite Dino, because ankylosaurus are awesome. On the STL front a lot of the very out-of-print armies can easily be built using Highlands. Those cats are crazy.
Loved the banter and discourse in resolving this list. I came into the Old World with a small collection of Dark Elves from my childhood and managed to pick up a few of the available models on the lead up. When they ended up being a Legacy faction I was a little hurt, shifted gears and let them simmer while I bought and built my first ever Bretonnian army simply out of the availability category and that as a kid they always called to me but I never had the budget when I was 10 for Fantasy. Next on my wish list is Wood Elves! Can't wait for the eventual release. (Sorry Dark Elves...I hope you don't get cut though...)
I've been playing 40k since 8th and got into AoS for the fantasy setting even though I didn't love the lore. Bretonnia was literally everything I wanted in a fantasy army and is what got me into Old World. Absolutely fantastic models.
Apart from being a legacy faction, the main problem with daemons imo is that their pdf rules as written heavily push you towards running a single alignment. It's not so much one 'chaos daemons' army so much as four mini armies - 'Khorne Daemons', 'Tzeentch Daemons', Slaanesh Daemons', and Nurgle Daemons.' And unfortunately while 'chaos daemons' on the whole might seem spoiled for choice, each of the individual aligned factions has to make do with not quite half of a full faction's pool of available units. If all of those units are good then that mini faction is absolutely still fully effective on the table, but unlike regular factions where one or two dud units generally isn't a big deal, with daemons one or two duds could cripple a whole alignment since they just don't have a deep enough pool of units to field something else in their place. You also don't really have room to shift around your play style much without effectively swapping out your faction altogether, the way that, say, a vamp count army could swap a vamp lord on a dragon and some blood knights for a necromancer on mortis engine, a terrorgheist, and a banshee or two and effectively change up how their army plays while leaving most of it in place. Between that, not being 'core', and a few sculpts that imo really don't hold up, I'd honestly put them in C, maybe swapping places with dark elves.
I guess, viewing them from a purely 8th edition lense (where I felt exactly all of these points were true and frustrating) I found the pdf at first blush to not nearly be as hemmed into mono-God builds. But I might be wrong about that.
Vampire Counts, as the inheritor of the old Warhammer Undead, is and was a menagerie with ghouls, ghosts, skeletons, zombies, vampires, and so on. So I don't mind them not really doing 'all vampires all the time'. Even in AoS, where ghouls and ghosts have been spun out into their own armies, the Soulblight Gravelords - direct descendants of the Vampire Counts faction - still have zombies and skeletons and wights, and necromancers, with vampires typically occupying commander and elite roles rather than core troops. Full vampire armies are allowed in the AoS vampire faction, but they're not the default there either. Anyway, yeah, while the Vampire lords and heroes themselves have definitely been reigned in compared to WHFB, the faction as a whole still has great rules in old world, and access to great models via the AoS range, and are kept out of S tier here only because they're a legacy faction. Something I hope changes when AoS gets new black knight, grave guard, and zombie dragon models, letting the entire old WHFB range kick back to Old World as its own thing. I'd certainly love to be able to buy more of the 7th ed skeleton warriors kit to use in place of the too-old-for-my-taste tomb kings skeletons.
Just shaking my head at Val's take on DE while somehow giving CD a pass when everything said for DE applies even harder to CD. While at the same time DE are all available to purchase.
(Biased opinion) I would generally disagree on dark elves not on the tier per se - not easy to play and high elves offer more in general - but on the availability of the models: all the range besides shades, the beastmaster on manticore and the sorceress on Pegasus (and perhaps very few others, mostly characters options that you can convert) is currently available in AoS: Cities of Sigmar and Daughters of Khaine. Moreover, that's all 8th edition plastics and probably amongst the best WHFB sculpts. This being said, there are also growing 3d prints offers, such as White Angels Miniatures doing one of the best jobs at keeping the traditional Elvish style. Forg3d is printing them in 28mm for those who do not have a printer. For something more exotic you may also want to check out Titan Forge Everdark Elves (very wild and buggish style) and Lost Kingdom miniatures (very far east, mostly based on Japan, great for a Far East Cathayan/Nipponic theme).
Plus, I mean, with a Black Dragon box and a Scourgerunner Chariot you can bash out: - both a Dreadlord or a Sorceress on Black Dragon if you don't glue them - a high beastmaster on Scourgerunner Chariot - use the leftover cold ones for your spare Dreadlord or sorceress from the dragon kit (to the extent that you could play both in the same list without gluing any of them) - a master BSB with minimum conversion - a Noble on foot (instead of using the Fleetmaster, currently the only other option) I think they have plenty of availability. Sure, caveat is that they are mostly mail order if and when they are available on the website.
@@SquareBasedOldWorldlol, you saw the saltiness in all our DE players' comments 😂 Regardless, I really wanted to shout out the 3d creators because there are some options. Last swords and dragons lake are other two that just came to my mind.
Allosaurus. I have been collecting Lizardmen for over 20 years… never played a game. Got excited about Age of Sigmar, but was still too invested in 40K to try them as Seraphon. Now with TOW, I am finally taking the plunge and building and painting.
Thanks for mentioning us enbies. It's a silly thing I know, but it's appreciated! On topic, 100% a Dark Elf and Beastmen fan. Interesting to see how you have ranked them. I certainly struggle with putting together Dark Elf lists compared to 8th edition because everything is so expensive. Beastmen are the complete opposite! There's so much on the second hand market right now that it's very easy to build a list that feels expansive and can do a lot of things.
I'll definitely consider getting into Old World when High Elves come out. Was very tempted to get Ogres for AoS so if there's some way I could run them in both I would do that in a heartbeat.
This made me really think twice about watching another video from Square Based. It's bad enough that we have to fight off GW reps to allow Legacy factions in our tournaments let alone have Val telling GW to get rid of Dark Elves. Pretty damaging if you ask me.
@@jellyfiish2870 yeah it's crazy... like we need really need added restrictions on a niche player base, or to further antagonize players who already are coming back from a complete GW gut punch in 2015.
As much as GW's marketing guys / brand managers claim that the Legacy PDFs are exclusively ment for people with pre-existing WHFB armies to "try out" the new rules ... the writers / designers of the Daemons of Chaos list had very clearly other ideas. Like, we got rules for Brimstone Horrors - literally an AoS unit, no WHFB players would have those in their collection. Now if only we could ally Daemons with other armies ... I'm hoping the Warriors of Chaos arcane journal is gonna allow you to include them. The Chaos Warshrine, the Vortex Beast, Skull Crushers, Hellstriders ... all stuff suspiciously missing, but could make sense alongside daemons as part of a more daemonic, more elevated in the eyes of the god, type army of infamy. "The Warhost of the Everchosen" or something. And maybe to contrast that, we'll get a Total War Warhammer Norsca inspired army list alongside, one focused on Marauders and war beasts.
Everytime I see a Skaven opponent, I always think 'this is going to be a horrible time.' Skaven players, in my experience were always very argumentative, ruleslawyery, and generally min-maxing their army to rude levels. But I also was a mainly Empire player, and Skaven are kinda designed to beat Empire, so there is that.
Skaven rules have always been worded so poorly, that actually deciding how they're going to work at the start of the game was a reasonable ask. When their weapon teams were forced to flee as a charge response, you could simply declare charges you knew would fail to push them off the table turn one RAW. Skaven are fun to have around when you know the player, and want to do awesome horde battles and theme games. But their LOLSORANDOM playstyle and character/weapon team/monster heavy lists are just frustrating for everyone
@Hawko1313 the "lol so random" is why I like them. I really enjoyed playing the odds, in 8th they had so many effects and combos that would be OP the 20% of the times they worked. Skitterleap into doomrokkit was my personal favorite.
There are .stl’s for CD’s out in the world. Several years back I worked with a couple of Europeans (and maybe a Brazilian.) the French guy was using photogrammetry and getting rough scans. We’d spend hours in blender doing the cleanups. I personally did some of the hobgoblins, warriors, and blunderbusses. Others did the monstrous mounts, more bb’s, the stilt guy, etc. those stl’s or printing services have to be out there somewhere for someone looking hard enough. I got bored of the tedious blender work and bailed, but the others had commercial aspirations. The quality wouldn’t pass 2024 standards but held up very well against 90’s pewter casts.
New player here, 3 out of the 4 armies that I am most exited to play are legacy factions so after my Orcs and Goblins I would definitely be purchasing 3d prints locally for Chaos Dwarves, Dark Elves and Vampire Counts. There are some amazing 3d prints for Chaos Dwarves and they have very good variety. I would love them to return to the Old World but I guess GW is saving them for AoS.
As a new player I was going to get into Dwarfs because I was thinking either them or Wood Elves (maybe High Elfs) and they're actually coming out. If I hadn't gotten into Warhammer with Necrons and Thousand Sons I'd probably have gone with Tomb Kings though. It seems I'm allergic to melee.
Thanks guys.... A little late for me, but.... Hahaha Beastmen, Chaos warriors, vampire counts, lizardmen, ogors, and possibly some wood elves (if I don't convert everything into chaos) and Empire. I did jump on ogres specifically because of the low model count and will get me on the table more quickly than all my horde armies. However, they (and my empire faction) do not use standard ogres. I wanted my ogres to resemble the same size as the ogre in one of the original war cry boxes, as well as my mordheim ogre. I found some wild alternatives. When I'm done painting them, I'll see you about firing pictures off to you guys somehow. I did use the old ogre heads but I needed to convert them (these bodies aren't fat) by shaving down the jawline and under the chin. But the new kit I got had so many extra heads that I can redo my whole Army or I can more easily just fix 9 I got with the old GW heads.... What to do, what to do. While I do believe GW did us a solid by fixing and releasing the game ... They got enough out of me with my Warriors, Vamps, wood elves and lizardmen
I understand why you say Dark elves and High elves are reskins of each other (arguably), but just because one is legacy and one is not, feels bad to have them in the same tier.
For Vampire Counts, I hope they re-release the Lahmian Vampire (both mounted and on foot) as well as Vlad, Isabella, Konrad models on a made-to-order basis. There's also that one-wing chap. Vampire Counts doesn't seem to have many cool aristocratic vampires.
Completely agree with Rob, Wood Elves are C, just for collectability alone. Yes, the Tree-Stuff is available, but you couldn't form a legal Grand Army out of those. And STL doesn't count, otherwise Chaos Dwarfs should be higher too.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld in a „can I get these models to play“ list I get it. Has been like this since the mid 90s. Hope you set the record straight in the Chaos Dwarfs Deep Doive ;)
For my Bretonnians, I am doing an Errantry Crusade based on the Kingdom of Haven movie. So the primary (Duke,Barron Peasants) are all in red and gold. The KOTR are all in unique colors, and the 3 Units of 10 Errants are in 3 colors, Black and Silver (Knights Hospitalr) , Blue and Gold (Knights of Jerusalem) I am not sure about the 3rd set of 10... Thinking Knights Templar...but ugh white.
I think Empire needs an Arcane journal that really showcases the city states. Unique upgrade sprues for each city, and city state specific color schemes and lists
This is an interesting discussion for me in particular, as I was never into Warhammer until a year ago, and now I’m diving in deep with Old World in particular. All of these classic GW sculpts are pretty appealing to me (for some strange reason), so I’ve gotten both starter boxes as well as a Skull Pass box itching to get on the tabletop. Exploring this classic world of Warhammer Fantasy through the rules and the tabletop has been a wonderful adventure, and I can actually see myself one day getting at least a token force for each faction, at least as a pipe-dream goal! Therefore, this is a good reference for which armies I may want to target first, and which ones I should maybe wait for that rare deal to scoop up when the time is right - thanks for the great video!
For the Brets I'm doing a compromise on the Entirely Unique Schemes: the "of the Realm" knights have standard horses and then custom riders. What a savings!
What I’m finding. And what a crazy thing to “complain” about. The points values are so high that I just can’t play all the units I want to include at 2000 pts. I’m leaning into 3000 pt games, mainly because there’s a bit of HeroHammer in TOW
Good chat. If you approached TOW as a theme player I think your analysis holds up. That being ppl that want to play the game like the vibe of how it is marketed & envisaged e.g armies that have command groups, standards, ranks, units across a range rather then multiples of the same unit type or Min/Max selections. Model accessibility & rules follow a similar rational to competitive style play in this instance.
I used to play Dwarfs in old school faba and Space Wolves in 40k. to me as with all the best generals out there most deciding factor in army selection is the quantity of ale drank.
That drop from S to B for Bretonnia offends ze lady. For those of us who have finished and are finishing individual heraldry on our knights, pushing through and getting that done has been the single most rewarding experience of my hobby career. Should have split the difference on A, just like for Beasts. Fun episode though!
I'm surprised you felt so down on the Dark Elves tbh - you can get the majority of the models (stock permitting), and they are 100% the range that's most likely to get moved back to being core to my mind, just because I have to think they will get pulled out of COS in the next 18 months when that gets a second wave for AOS, and at that point the blocker from SGS/Main GW will be over. They're way more likely to come back than Daemons I think. I'd also say they are the most likely of the legacy factions to actually get a rules update when GW eventually accept that nobody else but them is buying this tournament legal bit and they don't have enough balancing data to work with to make the core/legacy thing work, and they're fairly elite and easy/quick to get on the tabletop.
Something that wasn’t pointed out for warriors of chaos is that we can now use the new darkoath models as our marauders rather than the crappy old ones which was a game changer for me.
"chaos warriors are crap, so are chaos knights and chosen, and the monsters aren’t great, I think it’s S tier" I need an explanation Rob :D quite a different conclusion from what you say in your army overview.
Im a long time High Elf Player and i really looked into Lumineth conversions for when Old World was announced and theyre pretty different. I feel like you could do a head swap and shield swap on the spearmen with pretty good affect, the chariot heads in particular look great. Theres a few characters as well, but thats kind of about it, so then you run into a sort of range mismatch issue as you take bolt throwers or cavalry stuff. IDK, I got files for printing but im just waiting to see thr rules at this point bc I cant handle buying an elf army and busting my ass painting only for them to suck on the table. Not again lol
I already bought a whole army of Ogres. If new AoS infant-ogre hunter is a sign of things to come, I'm glad I have the old figures. New Gorgers are fire tho.
Huh- interesting take on my dark elves. Here’s a hot take back at ya- eat something unpleasant I am too polite to say in society. The druchii are awesome. I tried painting high elves a couple of times, then I reminded myself time is finite and I could be better spending it painting more dark elves. Funny how there was zero of this hot take when CD’s were up for discussion. While they do diverge more from their lineage, it’s not much more. Especially as dwarfs get more magical by the edition. If you can’t find the de/he difference you ain’t paying attention.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld we hereby sentence you to two seconds in a hydra’s breath range. If you survive, you will never forget the difference in armies! 👍
Just want to give a shout out to Raging Heroes. They do excellent ranges of elves both high and dark as well as slaanesh. Raging heroes do a subscription for 3d prints and also have a store to buy caste resin and metal miniatures.
I’ve been slow to get into old world. Mainly just because I lack the hobby time atmo. I hope the first edition last an extra year or two just so I have a chance to play.
Such a D-tier, *unbased* take by Val! The history of the Dark Elves is intrinsically linked to so many of the important events that has shaped the Old World - more so than the Empire, Bretonnia, Wood Elves, Vampire Counts, Ogres or Chaos Dwarfs... Without Malekith there would be no Empire and without the Dark Elves the High Elves might as well be Cathay or Ind as they hole up on their island... When you think Warhammer Fantasy, generally you think of beastmen in the woods, Skaven in the severs, but when it comes to the grand defining match-ups you think: The Empire vs The Forces of Chaos The High Elves vs The Dark Elves The Dwarfs vs Orcs & Goblins
The TAU of FANTASY?! GET! IN! THE! BOOK! You better believe that's a grudgin' BOY! In all seriousness though I feel like you guys might be overvaluing diversity of play styles. Most people I play with either pick what is good or what they like about an army and run with that, modifying the one army as they go. I've never run across a player that like in the Chaos Dwarfs section changing an army composition between game sessions but I tend to play with more casual fluff bunny players so I reckon my perception is coloured by that. Love the content lads, look forward to the next one.
Seems strange that Brets aren't at least A tier. You can get a good chunk of their range, some great alternative ranges and they are a core faction. also, painting heraldry individually isn't terrible as it's fun to not have to batch paint all the time. And favourite dinosaur has to be Triceratops or Velociraptor
I've been wanting a Warriors of Chaos army since I was a kid and the old world might finally be my chance to achieve that 😁 when you say the models are all readily available, does that mean the AoS STD range rebased?
Awh, I like the current Orc charriot xD I got the Orc box, then grabbed some boar boiz... calling my Orc clan the "Bacon Boiz"! Wouldn't be as good if the orcs didn't have a veriety of pigs!
Would be interesting to see an updated version of this video. Counted in released GW models, alternative models and available 3d printed models. If GW wont sell us models of some fractions, I will not feel bad from getting proxy models for them. I also heared that there is supposed to exist some webpage listing good alternative models. Does anyone here happen to know where that webpage is located?
As Mentioned on the Show! Tickets have since gone on sale for CCBB in Ottawa, Ontario!
$175 CAD GETS YOU:
A legit delicious lunch both days.
6 Rounds of HOT AND STEAMY OLD WORLD ACTION
Played on gorgeous tables and terrain
A very tasteful and excellent comp pack.
Girthy Prize Support
Access to the legendary Gamer Garage sale
A top tier Convention Centre venue that you can literally walk to from the airport.
The opportunity to make friends that last a life time... awww.
LET'S GOOOOOO
www.bestcoastpairings.com/event/FMMH5VQR19
As a beginner ToW player who lives in Ottawa, thank you very much for bringing up the CCBB. I had no idea this event existed until I heard about it on your show.
Rob saying that Dwarfs are "mediocre"!!! That goes straight to the grudge book!!!
Dwarfs own S tier
Yeah, he sells them short!
Not mediocre, nuanced.
I get that they have a different playstyle and hurt with the short movement... however a $40 box of oathmark models gets you 260 points theres tons of 3d prints around it's just super easy to collect
If you really want to have fun with Dwarfs, you can mess around with house rule units that are available from 3rd parties. Bear riders. Chariots. I kit bashed a Dwarf APC out of Bren Gun Carrier model.
I don’t need a starter army, I need to stop starting armies 😂. I have 7 now and had to sell a kidney.
The guy who bought your kidney here.. looked up that Warhammer you where on about.. Needless to say I just sold the kidney for models..
/cheers
I've got not kidneys and no time to paint
So...still just a sweet and innocent newbie we see. Don't worry, you'll have them all eventually too...
Every elf army in mediocre? I'm sensing bias here from Rob. Perhaps he has the real life condition "Fear elves"
Elves are the reason why Old World is back. No other system besides BB has cool Elves in it anymore.
@@TheGeneralGarciaDrukhari in 40k are cool if you're okay with the edginess but yeah, TOW probably has the coolest Elves.
They did say that Wood Elves play at A or S tier, they just don't have models available.
@@NateFinch I'll finish watching the video then, this one got me all sorts of grumpy!
Im a chaos dwarf main. I hate order and elves - Rob
You can get almost all Dark Elves from Cities of Sigmar and Daughters of Khaine. Def should be B or higher
It's so hard to find them now with the stupid names
@@markysgeeklab8783 yeah. "Dreadspears", "Drakespawn Knights", etc. I just open Cities of Sigmar and Daughters of Khaine on the website and scroll through.
@@markysgeeklab8783aos -> order -> cities of sigmar
Dark Elves FTW. Cold One Knights are the coolest cavalry in the game by far : )
That was some biased Val shit if I ever have seen some....Hugo must have ruined him!
False lizardmen cold ones are dinosaurs riding dinosaurs
@@longshot007 Lizardmen Cold Ones are paper weights!
I'm collecting Dark Elves. Apart from a few units, they are very available.
@@Gumlass1 me too they are good looking army and fun to paint even if they might suck a bit in the game
Rating feels low for dark elves. A lot of their latter day WHFB plastic kits are still fantastic, and there's just something iconic about their spikey armor, their draconic/raptor cavalry, the witch elves, the cauldron, just all of it, and much of it is either still available from GW or not too pricey on the secondary market.. Yeah, lots of mirror/parallel counterparts with high elves, but that was part of the appeal. 'C' isn't a totally unfair rating, but personally I'd put them in B.
I think it's more that the rules are really bland compared to the other elves. It's one of those cases where it's very clear the legends list didn't get the same care as the "real" army lists.
Saying that they are the smae as high elves is also a far fetch. Ofc they will be more smilar to each other than to an undead army, but strategically speaking they are opposites. HE play on close, solid formations whereas DE don't give a fuck about it. Just look at the amount of unarmoured/uncontrollable units.
The dark elf comments hurt me. Shadowblade it def dipping his blades in some poison planning on paying someone a visit
Perhaps picking a fight with sadistic slaver pirates was a poor choice
I am putting square bases on my 40k Army cause fuck GW
Being im one of those who unexpectedly ended up with a beastmen army for old world i love playing them far more than when i played them in AoS.
Ogres: I'm going with a mix of old school Citadel lead models, plastic landsknecht ogres, and 3D prints to make a more "civilized" ogre army (using halflings as gnoblers).
Yeah. The Wargames Atlantic ogres needed some kitbashing to use in bulk. The torso / legs have limited poses out of the box, but they look great.
Beastmen should be S tier, and Val wanting to put them in B-tier alongside their mortal enemies, the Wood Elves, is outrageous.
Regards, an unbiased reviewer
UNBIASED
unbassed
@@SquareBasedOldWorld UNgorBIASED
Blindsided by the Dark Elves take. Damn.
You can buy 90% of the range from GW still. Warriors with Spears/Swords/Crossbows, Witch Elves/Sisters of Slaughter, Blackguard/Executioners, Corsairs, Dark Riders/Doomfire Warlocks, Cauldron of Blood/Bloodwrack Shrine, Cold Ones, Scourgerunner/Cold One Chariots, Black Dragon, Hydra/Kharibdyss, Assassin, Sorceress and they even have AoS stuff like the Melusai (Medusas) and the flying Witch Elves can be used as Harpies.
I think they are THE most evil and brutal faction in Fantasy. By far. I can't imagine fantasy without that threat. But maybe I'm bias, currently building an army... but damn lol
have you ever heard of skaven?
@BananenbaumEY yeah, I consider Skaven on the same tier of evil. It's just the bastardisation of the regal immortal elf. Just takes it that little bit further, in my opinion.
@@themidnightaristocrat well, fair point sir. fair point yes-yes.
An important note for anyone using new AoS miniatures of Seraphon to port into OW as Lizardmen: You will need some tactical rocks to raise random Saurus Warriors up so their tail fits between the legs of the warrior behind them as you rank them up. Spear loadout makes this easier as the clubs are clunky. I recommend you find 60x90 Unit Filler bases to mitigate this annoyance while ranking a unit up. Aggradon lancers will be very expensive if you want to proxy them for Cold Ones. They fit the cavalry bases and rank up with some shouldering, but are large. Lizardmen is rewarding. Play it if you can.
Dark Elves are actually SUPER easy to get hold of from GW! Most infantry and Cavalry is in cities of sigmar, but there is also loads in Daughters of Khaine too.
It's very easy to slap together a variety of 2k lists using easily accessible kits.
I agree with them being a bit too 1-1 with High Elves, but the flip side of that is, should the army be obliterated entirely in a future update, you can run them as the High Elf equivalent.
Warriors = Warriros
Executioners = Sword Masters
Black Guard = Phoenox Guard etc.
If you like the look, I think they're a cool choice.
Yeah I was surprised how many really old DE kits are still there in AOS.. most of the range is there and they haven't jacked the prices too much
You actually don't have as many models and ranks as you thought.... empire player: hold my beer
Disagreeing with your assessment of empire though, they have some of the largest rosters and are one of the factions with the most and best 3rd party models. The issue is just that most people find humans in a fantasy setting boring but the people playing them love the optics. Rules wise they are not the best definitely but imo decent. With the playstyle however, you can do almost everything, infantry, shooting, monsters, kav, warmachines.... every archetype. Lizardmen and Ogres above them in the ranking are a bit much I think, ogres are auch a one trick pony, same as dwarves. Empire are comparable to lizardmen and skaven in their diversity, are not core but therefore more models available so same tier for me + with empire you can literally learn and play every aspect of the game.
Thought you would write: …. skaven player: hold my cheese
@@michaelf.7339as an Empire player for over 15 years (I stopped playing during the AOS times) this edition of Empire is very much the worst. Just becausebour roster has options for most playstyles, does not mean our roster can do any of then well. Usually, Empire excels as a Jack of all Trades / Combined arms list… except this edition it can’t even do that. The core of the problem is core. Empire Core choices are the worst they have ever been. The other problems, are our artillery is severely nerfed in many ways this edition, which was usually our equaliser against dragons, and now we have no real answer. Lastly, half our characters are useless. In particular, Warrior Priests, one of the most iconic characters are terrible now.
Chuckles in Orc.
Phenomenal video, I was absolutely beaming with pride at one stage glancing over at all of my individual heraldry designs of my fully painted Bretonnia army haha
Empire vs Skaven in TOW is a fantastic matchup. Two more “nuanced” factions that match up pretty well power wise. Fun-fun yes-yes.
Re: TK Skeletons looking derpy - As TOW launch was approaching, and finding out that my once planned 6th edition Beastman Army wouldn't be posisble from the Ravening Hordes book (still holding out for the arcane journal...) I decided to go with Tomb Kings, and as more and more of the new models were shown off, it became clear that the basic skeleton kits weren't being redone, I got more and more upset about how derpy the skeletons looked in pictures. But honestly, after building and painting them all they honestly don't look all that bad in person. That's not to say the sculpts couldn't be improved - but I'd almost be worried that newer sculpts would add details that would take away from the spray/wash/drybrush aspect of the chaff units...
Re: Dark Elves just being spiky High Elves - while some aspects of their models might be spiky mirrors of their high elven cousins, I think the high elf vs dark elf story is far too intrinsic to the WHFB setting to just off handedly say they should be deleted from the game. But most importantly, IF Games Workshop do bring back the renegade/legends factions, for the love of all things holy PLEASE bring back the fat cow cold ones rather than the skinny raptors!
I'm doing classic vamp counts, and im' glad they reprinted these derpy skellies as absent the egypt bits they are old school vamp coutns skellies that are expensive elseways. I was able to do a skelly heavy army of them + old metal command and lich/wight models and it kicks ass
On the one hand Val is entirely correct that Dark Elves are kinda just dark mirrors of High Elves (Phoenix/Black Guard, Swordmasters/Executioners, White Lions/Corsairs (they both have cloaks!)).
On the other hand tell me Cold One Knights aren't amazing. High Elves get dudes on horses who wish they were riding dragons, Dark Elves get dudes riding poisonous lizards.
Most cogent counterpoint I've read so far.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld I think I'll make that my epitaph: "Here lies Perfidy, he made the most cogent counterpoint in favour of Dark Elves." 😄
This was the video that made me decide to start a chorf army. Really happy to see that a deep dive was put out today. Going to dig into that on my long run tomorrow.
Assembly of this list was Epic
I’ve been following the channel and watching your videos starting around the launch of The Old World, and I just want to say a genuine thank you for all of the great info and entertainment. It really feels like being part of a community here.
Anyway, after deliberating over one of the army boxes since launch and following some ups, downs and personal victories in the past couple of weeks, I went out today and treated myself to the Tomb Kings box and can’t wait to get started!
Apologies for the ramble, cheers again and stay Square Based!
Cracking show! I do have one point to make - if you wanted all original GW models then yes CDs (are a very difficult to collect) but a mix of a few originals and the amazing 3d sculpts means this is a very easy army to obtain. As you said their rules provide a huge amount of play styles. Wood Elves and Empire are certainly harder options and probably won't be available for a while.
I had no interest in old world until me and my buddy were playing AoS yesterday and "Old World" entered both our brains like inception because he had to use a movement tray to move 40 clanrats. So here I am devouring old world content, thanks Rob and Val!
Where's the favourite dinosaur thread square basers? I'll kick off: Triceratops, which is obviously Big Lizardmen Vibes 🦕🦖
Pachycephalocaurus, the big brain choice 🧠
I agree with Lizards being Mid-tier. Their magic I don't think feels as strong as it should as Slanns are expensive and you really have to pay for casting bonuses. Heavy infantry across the board doesn't feel great so Saurus are just fine for me but skinks are awesome. Currently trying out a double Engine and Carno list which did really well into WoC last time out...
For old world I got 3 arimes, lizards, dark elves and goblins. At least one of them got really good rules lolol
Lizardmen was the first army I ever owned back when the first released and I've been a fan ever since. Really think I've got to go with the classic dinosaur tank for favorite Dino, because ankylosaurus are awesome.
On the STL front a lot of the very out-of-print armies can easily be built using Highlands. Those cats are crazy.
I’m a high elf collector but imo Lumineth look utterly ridiculous with those helmets
Loved the banter and discourse in resolving this list. I came into the Old World with a small collection of Dark Elves from my childhood and managed to pick up a few of the available models on the lead up. When they ended up being a Legacy faction I was a little hurt, shifted gears and let them simmer while I bought and built my first ever Bretonnian army simply out of the availability category and that as a kid they always called to me but I never had the budget when I was 10 for Fantasy. Next on my wish list is Wood Elves! Can't wait for the eventual release. (Sorry Dark Elves...I hope you don't get cut though...)
That unintentional bell curve on the tier list was so satisfying. 10/10 lads
I wanna know! The mistakes I made when I let Olde Worlde Innnn!
I've been playing 40k since 8th and got into AoS for the fantasy setting even though I didn't love the lore. Bretonnia was literally everything I wanted in a fantasy army and is what got me into Old World. Absolutely fantastic models.
Apart from being a legacy faction, the main problem with daemons imo is that their pdf rules as written heavily push you towards running a single alignment. It's not so much one 'chaos daemons' army so much as four mini armies - 'Khorne Daemons', 'Tzeentch Daemons', Slaanesh Daemons', and Nurgle Daemons.' And unfortunately while 'chaos daemons' on the whole might seem spoiled for choice, each of the individual aligned factions has to make do with not quite half of a full faction's pool of available units. If all of those units are good then that mini faction is absolutely still fully effective on the table, but unlike regular factions where one or two dud units generally isn't a big deal, with daemons one or two duds could cripple a whole alignment since they just don't have a deep enough pool of units to field something else in their place.
You also don't really have room to shift around your play style much without effectively swapping out your faction altogether, the way that, say, a vamp count army could swap a vamp lord on a dragon and some blood knights for a necromancer on mortis engine, a terrorgheist, and a banshee or two and effectively change up how their army plays while leaving most of it in place.
Between that, not being 'core', and a few sculpts that imo really don't hold up, I'd honestly put them in C, maybe swapping places with dark elves.
I guess, viewing them from a purely 8th edition lense (where I felt exactly all of these points were true and frustrating) I found the pdf at first blush to not nearly be as hemmed into mono-God builds. But I might be wrong about that.
Vampire Counts, as the inheritor of the old Warhammer Undead, is and was a menagerie with ghouls, ghosts, skeletons, zombies, vampires, and so on. So I don't mind them not really doing 'all vampires all the time'. Even in AoS, where ghouls and ghosts have been spun out into their own armies, the Soulblight Gravelords - direct descendants of the Vampire Counts faction - still have zombies and skeletons and wights, and necromancers, with vampires typically occupying commander and elite roles rather than core troops. Full vampire armies are allowed in the AoS vampire faction, but they're not the default there either.
Anyway, yeah, while the Vampire lords and heroes themselves have definitely been reigned in compared to WHFB, the faction as a whole still has great rules in old world, and access to great models via the AoS range, and are kept out of S tier here only because they're a legacy faction. Something I hope changes when AoS gets new black knight, grave guard, and zombie dragon models, letting the entire old WHFB range kick back to Old World as its own thing. I'd certainly love to be able to buy more of the 7th ed skeleton warriors kit to use in place of the too-old-for-my-taste tomb kings skeletons.
Great show, more of this style please! Agree with your calls by the chosen categories 👍
You are going in the book for this disservice to the dwarfs
That's it.. yer going in the book!
Lizards should be higher for models alone and then the great plan makes them S tier 🙏
Calling it 'late into the edition' when so few core armies have their books is a bit odd
Just shaking my head at Val's take on DE while somehow giving CD a pass when everything said for DE applies even harder to CD. While at the same time DE are all available to purchase.
Thank you both for being fantastic.
Our pleasure!
I am a chaos demons player. Round bases but with move trays. I am literally ready to play 40k, aos, old world, warcry, and HH.
You can get almost a full range of wood elf STLs from Titan Forge for like $70
(Biased opinion) I would generally disagree on dark elves not on the tier per se - not easy to play and high elves offer more in general - but on the availability of the models: all the range besides shades, the beastmaster on manticore and the sorceress on Pegasus (and perhaps very few others, mostly characters options that you can convert) is currently available in AoS: Cities of Sigmar and Daughters of Khaine. Moreover, that's all 8th edition plastics and probably amongst the best WHFB sculpts. This being said, there are also growing 3d prints offers, such as White Angels Miniatures doing one of the best jobs at keeping the traditional Elvish style. Forg3d is printing them in 28mm for those who do not have a printer. For something more exotic you may also want to check out Titan Forge Everdark Elves (very wild and buggish style) and Lost Kingdom miniatures (very far east, mostly based on Japan, great for a Far East Cathayan/Nipponic theme).
Plus, I mean, with a Black Dragon box and a Scourgerunner Chariot you can bash out:
- both a Dreadlord or a Sorceress on Black Dragon if you don't glue them
- a high beastmaster on Scourgerunner Chariot
- use the leftover cold ones for your spare Dreadlord or sorceress from the dragon kit (to the extent that you could play both in the same list without gluing any of them)
- a master BSB with minimum conversion
- a Noble on foot (instead of using the Fleetmaster, currently the only other option)
I think they have plenty of availability. Sure, caveat is that they are mostly mail order if and when they are available on the website.
I should have probably researched a take this hot
@@SquareBasedOldWorldlol, you saw the saltiness in all our DE players' comments 😂 Regardless, I really wanted to shout out the 3d creators because there are some options. Last swords and dragons lake are other two that just came to my mind.
These videos have got me very excited to get stuck in with the old world. Cheers lads
Triceratops, but I feel like everyone says that, so I'll go with Ankylosaurus. I just love weird lil freaks, it's why I play Dwarves.
Allosaurus.
I have been collecting Lizardmen for over 20 years… never played a game. Got excited about Age of Sigmar, but was still too invested in 40K to try them as Seraphon. Now with TOW, I am finally taking the plunge and building and painting.
Thanks for mentioning us enbies. It's a silly thing I know, but it's appreciated!
On topic, 100% a Dark Elf and Beastmen fan. Interesting to see how you have ranked them. I certainly struggle with putting together Dark Elf lists compared to 8th edition because everything is so expensive.
Beastmen are the complete opposite! There's so much on the second hand market right now that it's very easy to build a list that feels expansive and can do a lot of things.
Lizardmen - Miniatures S tier. Rules/Internal balance C tier.
I'll definitely consider getting into Old World when High Elves come out. Was very tempted to get Ogres for AoS so if there's some way I could run them in both I would do that in a heartbeat.
This made me really think twice about watching another video from Square Based. It's bad enough that we have to fight off GW reps to allow Legacy factions in our tournaments let alone have Val telling GW to get rid of Dark Elves. Pretty damaging if you ask me.
Hey we understand your point. We hope this comes across as friends at the pub and we are not always right. It would be toxic to assume so
"fight of GW reps to allow Legacy factions in our tournaments".. elitist mentality at it's finest!
@@jellyfiish2870 yeah it's crazy... like we need really need added restrictions on a niche player base, or to further antagonize players who already are coming back from a complete GW gut punch in 2015.
As much as GW's marketing guys / brand managers claim that the Legacy PDFs are exclusively ment for people with pre-existing WHFB armies to "try out" the new rules ... the writers / designers of the Daemons of Chaos list had very clearly other ideas. Like, we got rules for Brimstone Horrors - literally an AoS unit, no WHFB players would have those in their collection. Now if only we could ally Daemons with other armies ... I'm hoping the Warriors of Chaos arcane journal is gonna allow you to include them. The Chaos Warshrine, the Vortex Beast, Skull Crushers, Hellstriders ... all stuff suspiciously missing, but could make sense alongside daemons as part of a more daemonic, more elevated in the eyes of the god, type army of infamy. "The Warhost of the Everchosen" or something.
And maybe to contrast that, we'll get a Total War Warhammer Norsca inspired army list alongside, one focused on Marauders and war beasts.
Really good point
Everytime I see a Skaven opponent, I always think 'this is going to be a horrible time.' Skaven players, in my experience were always very argumentative, ruleslawyery, and generally min-maxing their army to rude levels. But I also was a mainly Empire player, and Skaven are kinda designed to beat Empire, so there is that.
Skaven rules have always been worded so poorly, that actually deciding how they're going to work at the start of the game was a reasonable ask.
When their weapon teams were forced to flee as a charge response, you could simply declare charges you knew would fail to push them off the table turn one RAW. Skaven are fun to have around when you know the player, and want to do awesome horde battles and theme games. But their LOLSORANDOM playstyle and character/weapon team/monster heavy lists are just frustrating for everyone
@Hawko1313 the "lol so random" is why I like them. I really enjoyed playing the odds, in 8th they had so many effects and combos that would be OP the 20% of the times they worked. Skitterleap into doomrokkit was my personal favorite.
There are .stl’s for CD’s out in the world. Several years back I worked with a couple of Europeans (and maybe a Brazilian.) the French guy was using photogrammetry and getting rough scans. We’d spend hours in blender doing the cleanups. I personally did some of the hobgoblins, warriors, and blunderbusses. Others did the monstrous mounts, more bb’s, the stilt guy, etc. those stl’s or printing services have to be out there somewhere for someone looking hard enough. I got bored of the tedious blender work and bailed, but the others had commercial aspirations. The quality wouldn’t pass 2024 standards but held up very well against 90’s pewter casts.
New player here, 3 out of the 4 armies that I am most exited to play are legacy factions so after my Orcs and Goblins I would definitely be purchasing 3d prints locally for Chaos Dwarves, Dark Elves and Vampire Counts. There are some amazing 3d prints for Chaos Dwarves and they have very good variety. I would love them to return to the Old World but I guess GW is saving them for AoS.
As a new player I was going to get into Dwarfs because I was thinking either them or Wood Elves (maybe High Elfs) and they're actually coming out. If I hadn't gotten into Warhammer with Necrons and Thousand Sons I'd probably have gone with Tomb Kings though. It seems I'm allergic to melee.
Poor Louise! She dosen't deserve that ''hate'' ! 😊
Thanks guys.... A little late for me, but.... Hahaha
Beastmen, Chaos warriors, vampire counts, lizardmen, ogors, and possibly some wood elves (if I don't convert everything into chaos) and Empire.
I did jump on ogres specifically because of the low model count and will get me on the table more quickly than all my horde armies.
However, they (and my empire faction) do not use standard ogres. I wanted my ogres to resemble the same size as the ogre in one of the original war cry boxes, as well as my mordheim ogre. I found some wild alternatives. When I'm done painting them, I'll see you about firing pictures off to you guys somehow. I did use the old ogre heads but I needed to convert them (these bodies aren't fat) by shaving down the jawline and under the chin.
But the new kit I got had so many extra heads that I can redo my whole Army or I can more easily just fix 9 I got with the old GW heads.... What to do, what to do.
While I do believe GW did us a solid by fixing and releasing the game ... They got enough out of me with my Warriors, Vamps, wood elves and lizardmen
I giggle every time someone says 'peg knights'. Great vid!
I understand why you say Dark elves and High elves are reskins of each other (arguably), but just because one is legacy and one is not, feels bad to have them in the same tier.
.........y'all gave an A, almost S, for collectability, to an army that cannot currently be purchased at all?
For Vampire Counts, I hope they re-release the Lahmian Vampire (both mounted and on foot) as well as Vlad, Isabella, Konrad models on a made-to-order basis. There's also that one-wing chap. Vampire Counts doesn't seem to have many cool aristocratic vampires.
Completely agree with Rob, Wood Elves are C, just for collectability alone. Yes, the Tree-Stuff is available, but you couldn't form a legal Grand Army out of those. And STL doesn't count, otherwise Chaos Dwarfs should be higher too.
Chaos being low broke me
@@SquareBasedOldWorld in a „can I get these models to play“ list I get it. Has been like this since the mid 90s. Hope you set the record straight in the Chaos Dwarfs Deep Doive ;)
Seeing Chaos Dwarfs in D of any tier list just breaks my heart.
They're S tier.
For my Bretonnians, I am doing an Errantry Crusade based on the Kingdom of Haven movie. So the primary (Duke,Barron Peasants) are all in red and gold. The KOTR are all in unique colors, and the 3 Units of 10 Errants are in 3 colors, Black and Silver (Knights Hospitalr) , Blue and Gold (Knights of Jerusalem) I am not sure about the 3rd set of 10... Thinking Knights Templar...but ugh white.
This is awesome.
I think Empire needs an Arcane journal that really showcases the city states. Unique upgrade sprues for each city, and city state specific color schemes and lists
This is an interesting discussion for me in particular, as I was never into Warhammer until a year ago, and now I’m diving in deep with Old World in particular. All of these classic GW sculpts are pretty appealing to me (for some strange reason), so I’ve gotten both starter boxes as well as a Skull Pass box itching to get on the tabletop. Exploring this classic world of Warhammer Fantasy through the rules and the tabletop has been a wonderful adventure, and I can actually see myself one day getting at least a token force for each faction, at least as a pipe-dream goal! Therefore, this is a good reference for which armies I may want to target first, and which ones I should maybe wait for that rare deal to scoop up when the time is right - thanks for the great video!
For the Brets I'm doing a compromise on the Entirely Unique Schemes: the "of the Realm" knights have standard horses and then custom riders. What a savings!
Good luck with the project
What I’m finding. And what a crazy thing to “complain” about. The points values are so high that I just can’t play all the units I want to include at 2000 pts. I’m leaning into 3000 pt games, mainly because there’s a bit of HeroHammer in TOW
There definitely is and I hope it's fun!
Saurus warriors and the temple guard need the drilled rule (or upgrade)
Good chat. If you approached TOW as a theme player I think your analysis holds up. That being ppl that want to play the game like the vibe of how it is marketed & envisaged e.g armies that have command groups, standards, ranks, units across a range rather then multiples of the same unit type or Min/Max selections.
Model accessibility & rules follow a similar rational to competitive style play in this instance.
I used to play Dwarfs in old school faba and Space Wolves in 40k. to me as with all the best generals out there most deciding factor in army selection is the quantity of ale drank.
I knew Rob from juggz and his show but boy is Val funny
That drop from S to B for Bretonnia offends ze lady. For those of us who have finished and are finishing individual heraldry on our knights, pushing through and getting that done has been the single most rewarding experience of my hobby career. Should have split the difference on A, just like for Beasts. Fun episode though!
I'm surprised you felt so down on the Dark Elves tbh - you can get the majority of the models (stock permitting), and they are 100% the range that's most likely to get moved back to being core to my mind, just because I have to think they will get pulled out of COS in the next 18 months when that gets a second wave for AOS, and at that point the blocker from SGS/Main GW will be over. They're way more likely to come back than Daemons I think. I'd also say they are the most likely of the legacy factions to actually get a rules update when GW eventually accept that nobody else but them is buying this tournament legal bit and they don't have enough balancing data to work with to make the core/legacy thing work, and they're fairly elite and easy/quick to get on the tabletop.
With Dwarfs I think that the lack of mobility makes them less forgiving for mistakes during deployment and movement mistakes in general.
what movement? :D
I hope that you all are right about Deamons. I’m considering rebasing my Tzeentch army for old world.
Something that wasn’t pointed out for warriors of chaos is that we can now use the new darkoath models as our marauders rather than the crappy old ones which was a game changer for me.
"chaos warriors are crap, so are chaos knights and chosen, and the monsters aren’t great, I think it’s S tier"
I need an explanation Rob :D quite a different conclusion from what you say in your army overview.
Empire honestly is probably one of the better starter armies.
The good news about the rule set is that with modern publishing changing it is practically free.
Great Unclean One came out in 2017, long after Fantasy ended
Dang it! I definitely muddled up the GUO w Glottkin
Im a long time High Elf Player and i really looked into Lumineth conversions for when Old World was announced and theyre pretty different. I feel like you could do a head swap and shield swap on the spearmen with pretty good affect, the chariot heads in particular look great. Theres a few characters as well, but thats kind of about it, so then you run into a sort of range mismatch issue as you take bolt throwers or cavalry stuff.
IDK, I got files for printing but im just waiting to see thr rules at this point bc I cant handle buying an elf army and busting my ass painting only for them to suck on the table. Not again lol
I already bought a whole army of Ogres. If new AoS infant-ogre hunter is a sign of things to come, I'm glad I have the old figures. New Gorgers are fire tho.
Huh- interesting take on my dark elves. Here’s a hot take back at ya- eat something unpleasant I am too polite to say in society. The druchii are awesome. I tried painting high elves a couple of times, then I reminded myself time is finite and I could be better spending it painting more dark elves. Funny how there was zero of this hot take when CD’s were up for discussion. While they do diverge more from their lineage, it’s not much more. Especially as dwarfs get more magical by the edition. If you can’t find the de/he difference you ain’t paying attention.
This was a dumb fight to pick. I deserve what I get, internet. But at least it's entertaining
@@SquareBasedOldWorld we hereby sentence you to two seconds in a hydra’s breath range. If you survive, you will never forget the difference in armies! 👍
Just want to give a shout out to Raging Heroes. They do excellent ranges of elves both high and dark as well as slaanesh.
Raging heroes do a subscription for 3d prints and also have a store to buy caste resin and metal miniatures.
I’ve been slow to get into old world. Mainly just because I lack the hobby time atmo. I hope the first edition last an extra year or two just so I have a chance to play.
Such a D-tier, *unbased* take by Val!
The history of the Dark Elves is intrinsically linked to so many of the important events that has shaped the Old World - more so than the Empire, Bretonnia, Wood Elves, Vampire Counts, Ogres or Chaos Dwarfs... Without Malekith there would be no Empire and without the Dark Elves the High Elves might as well be Cathay or Ind as they hole up on their island...
When you think Warhammer Fantasy, generally you think of beastmen in the woods, Skaven in the severs, but when it comes to the grand defining match-ups you think:
The Empire vs The Forces of Chaos
The High Elves vs The Dark Elves
The Dwarfs vs Orcs & Goblins
Half hearted car non apology video is virtually guaranteed
The TAU of FANTASY?! GET! IN! THE! BOOK!
You better believe that's a grudgin' BOY!
In all seriousness though I feel like you guys might be overvaluing diversity of play styles. Most people I play with either pick what is good or what they like about an army and run with that, modifying the one army as they go. I've never run across a player that like in the Chaos Dwarfs section changing an army composition between game sessions but I tend to play with more casual fluff bunny players so I reckon my perception is coloured by that.
Love the content lads, look forward to the next one.
Got 500 pts of elves on eBay for a stater force so I’m excited to hear they fun.
Seems strange that Brets aren't at least A tier. You can get a good chunk of their range, some great alternative ranges and they are a core faction. also, painting heraldry individually isn't terrible as it's fun to not have to batch paint all the time.
And favourite dinosaur has to be Triceratops or Velociraptor
Rob Val, so what I think would be a great ranker vid, looking at the USR (universal special rules) and which are dope and which are worthless.
39:22 "Everyone who plays Dwarfs is a weird little freak"
LITTLE???
as a dwarf player, i confirm, i'm a weird little freak 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I Rob can confirm I am too
I've been wanting a Warriors of Chaos army since I was a kid and the old world might finally be my chance to achieve that 😁 when you say the models are all readily available, does that mean the AoS STD range rebased?
Yes exactly. Also tons out there second hand
15:48 Did I hear that right when Rob called one of the best models GW ever produced "not wicked"?
Awh, I like the current Orc charriot xD
I got the Orc box, then grabbed some boar boiz... calling my Orc clan the "Bacon Boiz"!
Wouldn't be as good if the orcs didn't have a veriety of pigs!
It almost stresses me out when you guys reference Mr. Malorian. Dude never broke 6k subs.
A crime!
Im 3d printing an entire chorf army and loving it
Would be interesting to see an updated version of this video. Counted in released GW models, alternative models and available 3d printed models. If GW wont sell us models of some fractions, I will not feel bad from getting proxy models for them.
I also heared that there is supposed to exist some webpage listing good alternative models. Does anyone here happen to know where that webpage is located?