@@Zakariya3603 how so, cell has shown that by the mixture of Friezas' cells, Saiyan cells, and namekian cells he gets the ability to zenkai himself and mid battle. Kaioken wouldn't just ramp his power, it would accumulate it like ultra instinct does.
@@sidcomegys4154 I meant Perfect Cell from the Cell games, Goku even with ssj3 which is at least 40x the multiplier of kaioken X10 was barely at the level of Kid Buu.
When was a kid I always had the idea that cell is just using super saiyan power, well the aura in the anime made me think that anyway and the fact he has two of the saiyans cells
I always thought Cell became what its biological equivalent of a Super Saiyan in the scene where he utilized the bio extract to power up when he showed to the Piccolo vs. 17 fight. In the link below. ua-cam.com/video/mbRIGYQa5lc/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
just like how some of the z-fighters forgot they had a move that could stun an opponent no matter how powerful to get a free hit in hell cell made better use of the solar flair than the others did
I wanna know why the likes of Krillin and Tien ain’t leaned Kaioken yet. Obviously wont match the power of the others but it would be a major boost for them.
The gap in power is too much to make learning a whole new and dangerous technique worth it? If their signature techniques Destructo Disk and Tri-Beam are able to have an effect or even outright damage stronger enemies in spite of that gap then they may as well focus their training on that.
@@lancetheking7524 That's true actually. I'd still think that improving something you already know and mastered would be easier than learning a whole new technique but Tien can use moves he's seen once so that shouldn't really be an issue (though the only time he would have ever seen it on screen is during the Tournament of Power). The boring answer is because Goku is the main character but it could just be pride? None of the z-fighters ever really outright asked each other to be taught moves to the best of my knowledge. Whenever there was a passing of knowledge like when they picked up flying it was cause they saw someone do it and then practiced in private (Krillin did this back in DB).
@@scumbad7953Tenshinhan spent twice as long studying under Kaio than Goku did. He was up there for 8 months with Chaozu (Yamcha was there for 4 months). The three of them 100% should know Kaio-Ken, especially Tenshinhan, who's known as a master of techniques. Maybe due to human bodies they should be capped to x3 or x5 or something but they absolutely should know it.
@@richtersundeen6105 That's what makes it so annoying that they don't! Makes it seem like they spent most of their time on Snake Way or catching Bubbles and Gregory.
@@DanTheMeek i feel like it's the same as the instant transmission bit. cell could use instant transmission all along, but didn't know he could until he saw Goku use it. wherein cell immediately started using it against them too.
My headcannon was it was a secret technique taught to Goku & Other Z Fighters while dead so there was no traces of it in his DNA whatsoever. Since in DB the soul and body are separate i feel this is a technique attached to goku's soul also. Lets say he was stuck with Ginyu's body, I reckon Goku could use Kaioken to a certain limit based on the body but Cell couldn't grasp the concept of Kaioken. He'd need to have been taught this technique by King kai or others who have also learned it.
I think the best argument here is that the Z Fighters have built the Kaio-Ken into their normal fighting just as Piccolo says that they can boost themselves. This lines up with Goku using the Kaio-Ken throughout the fight with Frieza despite the reader not getting to see the aura. That would also kinda fix the issue of the Super Saiyan transformations not feeling as impactful later (does it really seem like Goku and the others become 50x stronger?), why Ginyu can't use Goku's full strength (he explicitly says he uses techniques that Ginyu doesn't know), and would clear up why Goku never teaches anyone else the Kaio-Ken (he did and they are using it, its just not brought to our attention).
I wonder if the only real reason the Kaioken is so dangerous is because it's taking that underlying principle that the greatest fighters would already be familiar with, and just taking it up to 11 beyond what you normally "should" do. It could be that while they're not using the Kaioken outright (or maybe they're sticking to its lower levels, rather than going for something above x10), in the 3 year gap before the androids, they (or at least Piccolo) trained enough to master that way of fighting to the point that they can maximize their power in bursts _just short_ of it becoming dangerous to their bodies, so they can keep doing repeatedly throughout the course of a battle. Same reasoning as mastering Super Saiyan, really. Krillin, and to a lesser extent, Tien still sounded rather lacking in that department, but as Piccolo said "we", it can be inferred that it applies to generally everyone to _some_ extent. It could plausibly synergize well with the Tri-Beam since they both revolve around focusing a lot of power at once, and if Tien was the one who adapted best after Piccolo, it would better explain his "Neo" Tri Beam stunning Cell. He also spent longer than Goku on King Kai's planet training with Chaotzu, so it'd be sad if that just resulted in nothing. Oh, and the reason I was emphasizing the time span before the androids, is because Krillin is similarly surprised as Gero on how Piccolo could've become so strong despite not being a Super Saiyan, wondering what kind of training he must have had. I'm guessing Piccolo got a better hang of what he explained to Gero compared to Krillin and thus got a better boost out of it proportionally to his own strength, and that's how he got so close to Goku's power, who already had that experience to start with. Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin on Namek were also surprised at Goku conserving energy and then powering up right before his strikes, which operates decently similarly, so it would make sense that everyone built off of that concept and expanded on it past that saga. Oh yeah, and you could also speculate based on Super Saiyan potentially not meshing well with Kaioken. Maybe that _is_ true after all, and that's what initially pushed Goku and Piccolo to become more efficient at utilizing its core principle without actually relying on the technique itself.
Given that Cell has two infinite energy cores from absorbing 17 and 18, he has infinite stamina, literally two sets. At that point constant regeneration basically doesn't cost any stamina. I think the real reason the computer never implemented it was because Cell would get too powerful too quickly, at a certain point of using kaioken at too high of a multiplier, he won't be able to use his Ki at all for about a day. (in Super, there's an entire episode where Goku can't use any of his techniques because of the amount of energy he had previously outputted.) THAT would be the true vulnerability of using Kaioken, you can't exactly regenerate if you can't use your Ki, he would essentially be wide open for anyone with a power level above 5 to end him. Heck, a gunshot might even work if they aim for the head! I told y'all farmer was OP, he was going easy on Raditz 😂
The reason Cell didn't use the Kaioken early on was probably because he didn't feel like he needed to. He outsmarted everyone and was able to absorb the androids. The reason Perfect Cell didnt use the Kaioken against Goku was because Goku didn't use it on their fight. He could have used the Kaioken against SSJ2 Gohan but it probably wouldn't have made much of a difference past 1X or 2X and his body would have felt it. Kaioken is also temporarily until the fatigue and worn out body occurs.
if you really think about it Goku is the only one to use Kaiohken. Tien and Yamcha should have it. The real reason is because Toriyama never focused on this but I like to think that's because King Kai transmitted that power to Goku only as the next Kaiohken master because of some divine unwritten rule. Kaiohken is indeed a godlike move so it's probably exclusive. Imagine Goku doing the same thing with Uub.
I like to think goku perfected it, tought it to his friends, and now they all use it as an improved method of ki manipulation. The reason we can't see it is because it's used like in the freeza fight, where it's only active for the moment of impact
If Cell used Kaioken he'd be unstoppable. Game over for everyone else. Gohan has his epic moment, father-son Kamehame-Ha, and then Cell's just like "Kaioken!" And then instantly wins ☠️ Maybe he just couldn't do it, like how Goku can't do "Super-Kaioken" for long periods of time, cuz Cell, at least when he's "Perfect", is kinda like a Super Saiyan.
I always imagined Kaioken as something that grew more difficult to use the more powerful you became. Mutiplying a larger and larger amount of power leaving even less room for error and even more control needed.
I think the burst idea is it, in canon, but also in how Toriyama probably imagined these things. The Kaioken is simply a means of augmenting and maintaining those bursts… and at the time Goku was using Kaioken, allowing larger bursts than he could use without it. In theory, if Goku learns to consistently push his power past 20x his base without going Super Saiyan, then I think Kaioken wouldn’t actually do anything useful, or otherwise just wouldn’t be as effective. And if Cell can push his power past the highest point he could push Kaioken (and i feel like that’s the case,) the same is likely true. Goku and Gohan apparently made their Super Saiyan forms more powerful by learning to make it function basically as their base power level, and what did that do? Beyond the stamina benefit, it meant that their floor from where they “burst” is many times higher… and I’m also willing to bet that it would make undergoing another transformation at that point much more attainable. Likewise, we later see that Gohan no longer needs to go Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 after his power unlock… because those forms are either raising his base power from or bursting to, levels which are vastly inferior to where his “Ultimate” power up puts his base line, where he would then be bursting from. Yeah, that was a mouthful.
The cost-benefit analysis is the most plausible reason. It's hard for me to imagine Cell using Kaioken unless we're talking about a Fighter-game moveset.
Simple :You need a pure heart (100% pure) to use the technique King Kai created (Kaioken and Genkidama/Spirit Bomb for American) So Gohan/Goten/Chichi/Videl/Pan/Broly (From Super) and maybe Mirai Trunks could learn them . But the rest of the Z Team can't learn them ,even if they're pure now ,they weren't in the past ,and you can't go back to a 100% pure heart once you go under this 100% (Unless it's you under 100% due to a transformation like SSJ) ,while the SSG Ritual do not need a 100% pure heart ,it just need to be pure enough . You also need a 100% pure heart for Kinto-Un. Then another thing which check the purity of the heart is Stardust Breaker of Gogeta ,if the target doesn't have a pure heart ,it will disintegrate them ,if they're pure ,then it cause a huge explosion instead. There was also Devilman attack (In OG DB) ,where you can only survive if you have a pure heart (something like ,you heart getting transperced if it's not pure/if you have vice)
He would be so broken. During the beam struggle with Gohan like “oh no I’m losing how can this be? I must sure have a perfect technique for this situation… ah yes, KAIOKEN TIMES 10!”
Haven't heard the explanation yet, but one of the ideas i believe is that not only did goku never stop using it, but he perfected it, and taught it to his friends. The reason we never see it is because it's works like how it did in the freeza fight, where it's only there for a split second on impacts.
I would say it makes sense that Guro just didn't know what Goku was doing when he used it and thus couldn't replicate it with Cell. I mean the machine he was using to record Goku's moves was destroyed mid fight I assume it just didn't record enough data for it.
When it comes to Piccolo's healing factor: if you cut off his head would his body regrow a new head? And his head grows a new body? Making two Piccolos
I always had the idea that it was because Cell never had it. Like, Gero's bug-droid only caught up to Frieza's arrival on Earth, so he wasn't aware of the kaioken.
He was completely unaware of it or how to. He didn't know he had Piccolo's regeneration and didn't know Instant transmission until he saw Goku use it in a simple way because Cell only learns instant transmission when he tries to blow up in his second form and Goku uses IT to go to king Kai's planet...
A better question: Why does being a clone mean you know how to fight and use abilities? One is not born with the skills, and experience of their parents just because they came from them. Same is true for a clone. Even if we say “that’s just how it works in this universe” who told cell he’s capable of doing those energy attacks? How does he know what they are called? Did the machine he was born with feed this information into his brain?
I kind of like the idea that Cell’s body is already operating at maximum efficiency, which means Kaiōken couldn’t push him any further (the idea of Kaiōken being similar to the gates in Naruto, i.e., it’s letting the body use its full power while sacrificing stamina since those limits are in place for preservation). I also think it’s likely that, whether he’s in a “Super Saiyan-like state” or not, something about his personality makes it more likely that he’d just destroy himself if he used it. Gokū said that Super Saiyan made his heart unstable which made the Kaiōken unstable, and I can imagine that Cell’s obsessive desires would do much the same.
it's probably because kaioken is a lot less powerful than just becoming super saiyan and it also has diminishing returns over time, meaning cell would get tired
I mean, it's a martial arts technique. He would have to be taught it, or learn from watching somebody else do it. Afaik nobody ever uses it in front of him, so he just doesn't know what Kaio-ken even is to begin with. Also, unlike the Kamehameha which has been around for a century now, the Kaio-Ken is a technique created by King Kai, and which only existed on Earth for like a cumulative year total.
It's probably because nobody mentioned/shown him the technique. They have data on all his techniques up to about Saiyan Arc. Then Goku shows Semi-perfect Cell Instant Transmission. If Goku shown Cell the Kaioken, he probably would have been able to use it almost immediately. Edit: Oh, wait. Kaioken Kamehameha was in Saiyan Arc too. Huh. Then, I guess he saw it as too much trouble.
My best guess is that it's like the ginyu situation, where his body is more than capable of pulling it off, but he has no idea of what it actually is or how it really functions. It's like going into the settings on a game you've had for a while and finding an option for something that the game doesn't tell you about.
He said I can use genkidama he can probably use kaioken too but I suspect his perfect form already has a built in mastered super saiyan since his aura is yellow and stamina control is good and his super perfect form has ssj2 built into it with it's lightning aura and all so he can't stack kaioken on top of it. Why didn't he use it before going perfect that's a toriyama forgor moment but even if he didn't forget he would've kept Imperfect Cell's power same while using kaioken to what it is in the manga rn without kaioken it would just be a visual and a reference story wise nothing would've changed.
It could have been possible that Toriyama realized that at that point of the series, Cell would have been undefeatable. So to make it where the Z fighters had the chance to beat Cell is to simply not have him use Kaio Ken.
I think the reason he didn't use Kaioken is for the same reason he never uses the Spirit Bomb. And in another sense, why he never used Super Saiyan (since he's technically part Saiyan). Kaioken is specifically a technique that King Kai invented. For that reason only he can teach it to someone. It's not a technique that can be acquired by having their cells in you (I don't know how any of those other attacks work that way though, since they all have to be taught, but perhaps the information was transmitted to Cell through the computer from the collected information Dr. Gero had on them all). It could also be that the info collectors never survived the interaction with Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga, so Gero, and by extension Cell, don't have that information. As for the Spirit Bomb, even if they could get the information, it would be impossible for Cell to use it, because it requires a pure heart to use. It's why the Spirit Bomb bounced off of Gohan rather than injuring him. Even if it's not a pure of heart thing, Cell is still too evil to use it. But like Kaioken, Gero may have never had the chance to collect the Spirit Bomb information. As for why I mentioned Super Saiyan, even without the information, he should still theoretically be able to use the power since that is a physiological thing. However, Super Saiyan is powered by Righteous Fury. And there's nothing Righteous about Cell. Althernatively (and ignoring the Super Saiyan argument), it could simply be that Kaioken, like the Spirit Bomb, are divine powers. Dr. Gero, being a scientists, probably wouldn't understand that concept even if he believed it was real. So he would be unable to provide Cell with the information because it doesn't match his scientific outlook.
My argument: Cell is a super saiyan. He literally can’t use kaioken or he’d probably just blow up. Maybe early stages of Cell could? But he didn’t have the finesse to use Goku’s techniques well until perfect form. With SPC being the one who can actually use the advanced stuff like instant transmission and, according to the games, spirit bomb.
I'm glad that Cell didn't/couldn't use the Kaio-ken. It doesn't even make sense that he knows how to use the Genki Dama considering that those techniques require specific training from a god and shouldn't be able to be understood through computer algorithms.
Cell lost memories of certain attacks that Frieza had during their fight on Namek, plus he would have to undergo training for this specific technique as it is a lot (miles and leaps) different than Instant Transmission or the Genkidama. It is probable he could indeed do it, but like I said, he'd need to train with King Kai for that; as whatever memory that Frieza had of Goku using Kaioken on him...did not transfer to Cell's conciousness. He would have had to see Goku use it on him.
While Cell can regenerate it's implied he does have a stamina cap, unlike Androids 17 and 18. You can tell from his fight with Goku during the Cell games. Now think about his position. In every fight he's pretty much either been dominated or was dominating. If he can use Kaioken it might help him out in the moment but would leave him drained of energy. Arguably the only instance where it could have helped him much would be either against Piccolo the first time they meet or Super Vegeta, but even then he'd have to make it last long enough to actually get the kill, and then still has Trunks there. Same with Gohan. It would be easier for him to just take down the planet than use Kaioken to get Gohan and be drained.
Just for plot convenience. If he could, and maybe had the ability to bust a 20x kaioken, he would have reached super Buu level 😂 Gohan ssj2 would have been totally stomped
Okay, one The Palace Invasion Arc is fucking incredible. Two, I think there's something to be said for it being a thing that was learned by the genetic components, not created. Cell didn't utilize instant transmission either
I think Toriyama either forgot about it (which has happened before) or he purposefully didn't use it because it introducing a hard number system back in would make things annoying. We have to remember that the Android/Cell arcs are where Toriyama finally did away with power levels for good. The SSJ1/2/3 multipliers and all this stuff were given to us in databooks and stuff but not in the manga (Toei would continue to use the kaioken for anime filler and movies but that wasn't with Toriyama's involvement, even the SSJB Kaioken X 20 was DBS anime only and in the DBS manga, Goku only briefly uses an version of kaioken stacking on perfected blue against Jiren but without any sort of stated numerical multiplier). Toriyama would also have to start giving everyone kaioken since a lot of the Z senshi trained with Kaioo anyway (Tien even notes that Goku should be capable of 10x Kaioken against Freeza so he knew enough about it to make such a statement) and even explain why Piccolo didn't use it against Freeza. Toriyama would also have to more precisely define people's power levels again since Kaioken applies a straight up multiplier to all stats and power level. I can understand how that would make writing fights and arcs extremely annoying.
I think he was using it. In the fight against Frieza Goku Incorporated into his normal fighting style. I remember King Kai stating that Goku was using the Kaioken and still getting beaten by Frieza. Even though the animation was that of regular Goku.
To me, thanks to the info you gave us, the strength of Cell in this first form before absorbing all those people had to be as strong as mecha Frieza. I say this since he was the strongest or of all those cells at the time everything was collected, and if we go with scaling up, I guess we could conclude that the Saiyan cells 'sensed' that power and equated to that level. Know this should be on your other video but something I have been thinking about for a little now. Appreciate the info and insight I never had the ability to do on my own.
My best theory would be that Cell could only use this technique once he was in his perfect form. His imperfect or semi perfect body could not handle the form. The technique does a number on your body and requires a lot of ki control. Perhaps because Cell’s body wasn’t fully developed, the Kaioken would risk damaging Cell’s core. There is even a good chance that it would have still risked his core in his perfect form. The Kaioken seems to damage/strain the body differently from most transformations in Dragon Ball. That’s the best theory I can come up with other than using Dragon Ball Super logic. The DBS logic would imply that Cell just didn’t have the Ki control to use it. Goku could only use it in tandem with Blue because of the Ki control that form required.
Educated guess but the cells used for Cell didn’t exactly come from post Saiyajin Saga Goku. It seems like while they collected Freeza’s and Cold’s cells, Goku and the other Earth based warriors had their cells collected from the previous sagas, namely from King Piccolo era, etc. Cell could, therefore, only use certain techniques natively BUT never forget that Goku has a knack for replicating abilities on sight so Cell could have inherited such a technique.
Cell seems too self-absorbed for his own good, he has all the powers of Goku but he doesn't realize Goku's greatest ability is his ability to adapt to a fight and outsmart his opponents. It's actually brilliant writing if they meant for it to be seen this way lol. Good video as always 👍
With all the sayain cells he has I couldn’t imagine how powerful he could get. I believe if he could see kaioken he would do it! If cell trained his ass off just imagine freza cells and all the sayain cells kicking in he would definitely be a treat! Would love to see cell come back for an ark
Plus it’s arguable everyone is using the kaioken considering piccolos statement in the same arc where he can raise and concentrate his energy when he fought android 20
I'd like to think that other than it being just a matter of how the plot turned out in the end, that cell maybe thought, in his ego, that kaioken must have been a form of cheating when it comes to the cell games, or that he felt like he was too superior to everyone else to need the benefits of the kaioken multipliers.
The answer is likely that using it is utterly stupid 9/10 times, and goku is just insane and decides to gamble his life on a heart attack constantly to win fights, where as cell looked at the loaded revolver with 5 rounds loaded in the 6 round cylinder and said "nope, not worth the powerup".
Wasn't cell made from a version of Goku before he learned Kioken? Because i remember them talking about how Cell was made ages ago, but only escaped "recently" when he was on the show.
Before watching, I want to sum it up to, there are abilities that must be trained to learn them and can't be encoded in the DNA as a skill would make sense.
AS Goku said when he went Super Saiyan Blue Kaiyoken. He had to practice a lot and really focus hard or else it would have really fucked his energy up and possibly killed himself doing it. It's possible cell knew this also and didn't want to risk killing himself trying to get a power boost.
He'd be too damn busted
Stacking Kaiokens on top of his Frieza durability, Namekian Regen, and Zenkais
Imagine if he trained 4 month like freiza😂
@@haroldnecmann7040Probably the second most broken character after Buu going off natural abilities.
@@haroldnecmann7040Imagine if he trained in the 10 days before the cell games started😂
Surely he’d be stronger than the likes of buu saga Vegeta
2 short possible answers. 1: Toriyama forgot about Kaio Ken. 2: Kaio Ken on a regenerating character would be absolutely busted
kaioken times 2 cell against ssj2 gohan, possible a kaioken times 3, gohan is toast
Cell Kaioken x10 wouldn't beat Super Buu or Mystic Gohan, he'd still be below them.
@@Zakariya3603 how so, cell has shown that by the mixture of Friezas' cells, Saiyan cells, and namekian cells he gets the ability to zenkai himself and mid battle. Kaioken wouldn't just ramp his power, it would accumulate it like ultra instinct does.
@@sidcomegys4154 I meant Perfect Cell from the Cell games, Goku even with ssj3 which is at least 40x the multiplier of kaioken X10 was barely at the level of Kid Buu.
Oh god, imagine the androids with kaioken
Super Perfect Cell: “Kaioken”
SSJ2 Gohan: “Kaio-wha-“
That's Mr. Super Perfect Cell to you.
When was a kid I always had the idea that cell is just using super saiyan power, well the aura in the anime made me think that anyway and the fact he has two of the saiyans cells
Even the sound was similar to Super Saiyan
I always thought Cell became what its biological equivalent of a Super Saiyan in the scene where he utilized the bio extract to power up when he showed to the Piccolo vs. 17 fight. In the link below.
ua-cam.com/video/mbRIGYQa5lc/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
Yeah me too
yes is hes using SSJ and even a SSJ2 esque form in 100% (thunder and everything)
Easy. Cell forgot he had it. He has so many techniques, some got forgotten.
Same reason Goku forgot he had it
The goku cell within cell basically purge cell memories from ever remembering kaio Ken.
just like how some of the z-fighters forgot they had a move that could stun an opponent no matter how powerful to get a free hit in hell cell made better use of the solar flair than the others did
@@constantinethecataphract5949
Goku didn’t forget he had it. Goku can’t use it with SSJ(filler doesn’t count)
My guess is he didn't realize he had
I wanna know why the likes of Krillin and Tien ain’t leaned Kaioken yet. Obviously wont match the power of the others but it would be a major boost for them.
The gap in power is too much to make learning a whole new and dangerous technique worth it?
If their signature techniques Destructo Disk and Tri-Beam are able to have an effect or even outright damage stronger enemies in spite of that gap then they may as well focus their training on that.
@@scumbad7953 wouldn't kaioken amplift that power too
@@lancetheking7524 That's true actually. I'd still think that improving something you already know and mastered would be easier than learning a whole new technique but Tien can use moves he's seen once so that shouldn't really be an issue (though the only time he would have ever seen it on screen is during the Tournament of Power).
The boring answer is because Goku is the main character but it could just be pride? None of the z-fighters ever really outright asked each other to be taught moves to the best of my knowledge. Whenever there was a passing of knowledge like when they picked up flying it was cause they saw someone do it and then practiced in private (Krillin did this back in DB).
@@scumbad7953Tenshinhan spent twice as long studying under Kaio than Goku did. He was up there for 8 months with Chaozu (Yamcha was there for 4 months). The three of them 100% should know Kaio-Ken, especially Tenshinhan, who's known as a master of techniques. Maybe due to human bodies they should be capped to x3 or x5 or something but they absolutely should know it.
@@richtersundeen6105 That's what makes it so annoying that they don't! Makes it seem like they spent most of their time on Snake Way or catching Bubbles and Gregory.
He said "kay-oken" to King Kai, and King Kai refused to teach it to him.
No.
Same reason Piccolo or the earthlings never do, because Toriyama forgot it was a thing.
@@DanTheMeek because kioken can only be LEARNED
@@DanTheMeek i feel like it's the same as the instant transmission bit. cell could use instant transmission all along, but didn't know he could until he saw Goku use it. wherein cell immediately started using it against them too.
@@BESTMOAD Tien and Yamcha did the same training with King Kai, no?
@@dr.hiccup573He did not teach them the Kaioken nor the Genki Dama
Goku's DNA must have been acquired before the battle with Raditz
Maybe he just forgot. He did forget that Piccolo could regenerate his limbs even thought he has Piccolo’s DNA.
Are any of you db fans kioken is a LEARNED technique from king kai u dont inherit that it, isnt genetic
@@BESTMOAD ...so is the Kamehameha
And solar flare
...and instant transmission
@@TheUltraDinoboy That's Yamcha's technique!
My headcannon was it was a secret technique taught to Goku & Other Z Fighters while dead so there was no traces of it in his DNA whatsoever. Since in DB the soul and body are separate i feel this is a technique attached to goku's soul also. Lets say he was stuck with Ginyu's body, I reckon Goku could use Kaioken to a certain limit based on the body but Cell couldn't grasp the concept of Kaioken. He'd need to have been taught this technique by King kai or others who have also learned it.
Wow, that was fast...
Maybe Perfect Cell is actually a Super Saiyan, and can't stack Kaioken on...
Yeah every time he powers up he has super saiyan aura so that’d make sense.
I like the way you thonk.
@@blaketindle4703he's always had a yellow aura so it's definitely not a super Saiyan boost
it would have expended his energy too fast
imagine ssj3 goku using kaioken. it would deplete his power too tast
I think the best argument here is that the Z Fighters have built the Kaio-Ken into their normal fighting just as Piccolo says that they can boost themselves. This lines up with Goku using the Kaio-Ken throughout the fight with Frieza despite the reader not getting to see the aura. That would also kinda fix the issue of the Super Saiyan transformations not feeling as impactful later (does it really seem like Goku and the others become 50x stronger?), why Ginyu can't use Goku's full strength (he explicitly says he uses techniques that Ginyu doesn't know), and would clear up why Goku never teaches anyone else the Kaio-Ken (he did and they are using it, its just not brought to our attention).
I like this explanation.
It would be great to see this get confirmed
I wonder if the only real reason the Kaioken is so dangerous is because it's taking that underlying principle that the greatest fighters would already be familiar with, and just taking it up to 11 beyond what you normally "should" do. It could be that while they're not using the Kaioken outright (or maybe they're sticking to its lower levels, rather than going for something above x10), in the 3 year gap before the androids, they (or at least Piccolo) trained enough to master that way of fighting to the point that they can maximize their power in bursts _just short_ of it becoming dangerous to their bodies, so they can keep doing repeatedly throughout the course of a battle. Same reasoning as mastering Super Saiyan, really.
Krillin, and to a lesser extent, Tien still sounded rather lacking in that department, but as Piccolo said "we", it can be inferred that it applies to generally everyone to _some_ extent. It could plausibly synergize well with the Tri-Beam since they both revolve around focusing a lot of power at once, and if Tien was the one who adapted best after Piccolo, it would better explain his "Neo" Tri Beam stunning Cell. He also spent longer than Goku on King Kai's planet training with Chaotzu, so it'd be sad if that just resulted in nothing.
Oh, and the reason I was emphasizing the time span before the androids, is because Krillin is similarly surprised as Gero on how Piccolo could've become so strong despite not being a Super Saiyan, wondering what kind of training he must have had. I'm guessing Piccolo got a better hang of what he explained to Gero compared to Krillin and thus got a better boost out of it proportionally to his own strength, and that's how he got so close to Goku's power, who already had that experience to start with.
Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin on Namek were also surprised at Goku conserving energy and then powering up right before his strikes, which operates decently similarly, so it would make sense that everyone built off of that concept and expanded on it past that saga.
Oh yeah, and you could also speculate based on Super Saiyan potentially not meshing well with Kaioken. Maybe that _is_ true after all, and that's what initially pushed Goku and Piccolo to become more efficient at utilizing its core principle without actually relying on the technique itself.
If Cell used kaioken then the only way Goku and Gohan could have defeated him would have been to learn to use kaioken on top of super saiyan.
Cellstock media strikes again :)
Just when you think there is nothing else to discuss about DBZ. Here comes laughingstock. Impressive.🤔💯
He needed all the energy he could save
Why did Cell use Solar Flare but didn't use any of Nappa's moves?
@@Korre84 why would he
@@Korre84 he doesn't have any of nappa's cells, only goku, vegeta, frieza, king cold, piccolo
@@Korre84 tf moves does Nappa have? The mouth beam?
@@noahjones9833the manga cell Yeah
He’d have been way too OP! With Frieza’s durability and Piccolo’s regeneration he probably could have used Kaioken x 100!
Given that Cell has two infinite energy cores from absorbing 17 and 18, he has infinite stamina, literally two sets.
At that point constant regeneration basically doesn't cost any stamina. I think the real reason the computer never implemented it was because Cell would get too powerful too quickly, at a certain point of using kaioken at too high of a multiplier, he won't be able to use his Ki at all for about a day.
(in Super, there's an entire episode where Goku can't use any of his techniques because of the amount of energy he had previously outputted.)
THAT would be the true vulnerability of using Kaioken, you can't exactly regenerate if you can't use your Ki, he would essentially be wide open for anyone with a power level above 5 to end him.
Heck, a gunshot might even work if they aim for the head! I told y'all farmer was OP, he was going easy on Raditz 😂
The reason Cell didn't use the Kaioken early on was probably because he didn't feel like he needed to. He outsmarted everyone and was able to absorb the androids. The reason Perfect Cell didnt use the Kaioken against Goku was because Goku didn't use it on their fight. He could have used the Kaioken against SSJ2 Gohan but it probably wouldn't have made much of a difference past 1X or 2X and his body would have felt it. Kaioken is also temporarily until the fatigue and worn out body occurs.
Fatigue isnt a problem for cell, he can literally regenerate, so he couldve used smthn like kaioken x3 to kill ssj2 gohan
if you really think about it Goku is the only one to use Kaiohken. Tien and Yamcha should have it. The real reason is because Toriyama never focused on this but I like to think that's because King Kai transmitted that power to Goku only as the next Kaiohken master because of some divine unwritten rule. Kaiohken is indeed a godlike move so it's probably exclusive. Imagine Goku doing the same thing with Uub.
I like to think goku perfected it, tought it to his friends, and now they all use it as an improved method of ki manipulation. The reason we can't see it is because it's used like in the freeza fight, where it's only active for the moment of impact
What if Goku fought a Cell Jr. After taking a senzu bean?!?! Im not giving up!! 😂😂😂
Safe to say he should be at least equal to them when Vegeta and Trunks could hold them off without beeing outclassed like the others.
LaughingstockASMR GEEZ
I think Toriyama forgot about Kai ken 🤣
Or u forgot kaiken is a learned technique
If Cell used Kaioken he'd be unstoppable. Game over for everyone else. Gohan has his epic moment, father-son Kamehame-Ha, and then Cell's just like "Kaioken!" And then instantly wins ☠️
Maybe he just couldn't do it, like how Goku can't do "Super-Kaioken" for long periods of time, cuz Cell, at least when he's "Perfect", is kinda like a Super Saiyan.
Simple: he forgor
Love your content Mike ❤❤❤❤
I always imagined Kaioken as something that grew more difficult to use the more powerful you became.
Mutiplying a larger and larger amount of power leaving even less room for error and even more control needed.
I think the burst idea is it, in canon, but also in how Toriyama probably imagined these things. The Kaioken is simply a means of augmenting and maintaining those bursts… and at the time Goku was using Kaioken, allowing larger bursts than he could use without it. In theory, if Goku learns to consistently push his power past 20x his base without going Super Saiyan, then I think Kaioken wouldn’t actually do anything useful, or otherwise just wouldn’t be as effective. And if Cell can push his power past the highest point he could push Kaioken (and i feel like that’s the case,) the same is likely true.
Goku and Gohan apparently made their Super Saiyan forms more powerful by learning to make it function basically as their base power level, and what did that do? Beyond the stamina benefit, it meant that their floor from where they “burst” is many times higher… and I’m also willing to bet that it would make undergoing another transformation at that point much more attainable. Likewise, we later see that Gohan no longer needs to go Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 after his power unlock… because those forms are either raising his base power from or bursting to, levels which are vastly inferior to where his “Ultimate” power up puts his base line, where he would then be bursting from. Yeah, that was a mouthful.
Somebody said it in the comments but I agree I think he WAS using it like Goku when he fought Frieza we just couldn't see it imo
The cost-benefit analysis is the most plausible reason. It's hard for me to imagine Cell using Kaioken unless we're talking about a Fighter-game moveset.
Cell having cellular knowledge of techniques based on when the cells were harvested is intresting.
Simple :You need a pure heart (100% pure) to use the technique King Kai created (Kaioken and Genkidama/Spirit Bomb for American)
So Gohan/Goten/Chichi/Videl/Pan/Broly (From Super) and maybe Mirai Trunks could learn them .
But the rest of the Z Team can't learn them ,even if they're pure now ,they weren't in the past ,and you can't go back to a 100% pure heart once you go under this 100% (Unless it's you under 100% due to a transformation like SSJ) ,while the SSG Ritual do not need a 100% pure heart ,it just need to be pure enough .
You also need a 100% pure heart for Kinto-Un.
Then another thing which check the purity of the heart is Stardust Breaker of Gogeta ,if the target doesn't have a pure heart ,it will disintegrate them ,if they're pure ,then it cause a huge explosion instead.
There was also Devilman attack (In OG DB) ,where you can only survive if you have a pure heart (something like ,you heart getting transperced if it's not pure/if you have vice)
He has to catch the monkey first or it won't work
My guess is the Launch explanation, that Toriyama just forgot that Kaio-ken existed.
He would be so broken. During the beam struggle with Gohan like “oh no I’m losing how can this be? I must sure have a perfect technique for this situation… ah yes, KAIOKEN TIMES 10!”
Haven't heard the explanation yet, but one of the ideas i believe is that not only did goku never stop using it, but he perfected it, and taught it to his friends. The reason we never see it is because it's works like how it did in the freeza fight, where it's only there for a split second on impacts.
I would say it makes sense that Guro just didn't know what Goku was doing when he used it and thus couldn't replicate it with Cell. I mean the machine he was using to record Goku's moves was destroyed mid fight I assume it just didn't record enough data for it.
When it comes to Piccolo's healing factor: if you cut off his head would his body regrow a new head? And his head grows a new body? Making two Piccolos
I always had the idea that it was because Cell never had it. Like, Gero's bug-droid only caught up to Frieza's arrival on Earth, so he wasn't aware of the kaioken.
The bugs were recording during the Saiyan saga and even before then tbh, so they would've caught it kaioken being used
Toriyama: i gave cell kameha, super saiyan multiplier, instant, transmission, instant regeneration, etc. what you wanted more? (MCU Wong impression)
He was completely unaware of it or how to. He didn't know he had Piccolo's regeneration and didn't know Instant transmission until he saw Goku use it in a simple way because Cell only learns instant transmission when he tries to blow up in his second form and Goku uses IT to go to king Kai's planet...
A better question:
Why does being a clone mean you know how to fight and use abilities?
One is not born with the skills, and experience of their parents just because they came from them. Same is true for a clone.
Even if we say “that’s just how it works in this universe” who told cell he’s capable of doing those energy attacks? How does he know what they are called?
Did the machine he was born with feed this information into his brain?
Goku could’ve beat Cell with his Kaio-Ken and died at the same time. Similar conclusion except King Kai gets to live lmao
I was just thinking about this yesterday.
I kind of like the idea that Cell’s body is already operating at maximum efficiency, which means Kaiōken couldn’t push him any further (the idea of Kaiōken being similar to the gates in Naruto, i.e., it’s letting the body use its full power while sacrificing stamina since those limits are in place for preservation). I also think it’s likely that, whether he’s in a “Super Saiyan-like state” or not, something about his personality makes it more likely that he’d just destroy himself if he used it. Gokū said that Super Saiyan made his heart unstable which made the Kaiōken unstable, and I can imagine that Cell’s obsessive desires would do much the same.
Actually his base powerlevel was 1000, but his super regeneration allowed him to use Kaioken times one million at all times! ;-)
1:47 it's giving "BEGONE!!!"
it's probably because kaioken is a lot less powerful than just becoming super saiyan and it also has diminishing returns over time, meaning cell would get tired
People forget Goku spent almost half a year learning how to use it.
Yeah but I doubt it’s more difficult to do than the spirit bomb and Cell claims he could do that.
I mean, it's a martial arts technique. He would have to be taught it, or learn from watching somebody else do it. Afaik nobody ever uses it in front of him, so he just doesn't know what Kaio-ken even is to begin with. Also, unlike the Kamehameha which has been around for a century now, the Kaio-Ken is a technique created by King Kai, and which only existed on Earth for like a cumulative year total.
Perfect Cell using Kaioken (×2) vs ssj2 Gohan would have been sick
He wasn’t taught simple he can’t replicate techniques he has actually seen
It's probably because nobody mentioned/shown him the technique. They have data on all his techniques up to about Saiyan Arc. Then Goku shows Semi-perfect Cell Instant Transmission. If Goku shown Cell the Kaioken, he probably would have been able to use it almost immediately.
Edit: Oh, wait. Kaioken Kamehameha was in Saiyan Arc too. Huh. Then, I guess he saw it as too much trouble.
The real reason behind almost every "why didn't x use y" is Toriyama forgot.
My best guess is that it's like the ginyu situation, where his body is more than capable of pulling it off, but he has no idea of what it actually is or how it really functions. It's like going into the settings on a game you've had for a while and finding an option for something that the game doesn't tell you about.
@@nagatheenderknight9654 cell is a child...he really would enjoy space adverture
@@raipe125 was this put under the right comment?
He said I can use genkidama he can probably use kaioken too but I suspect his perfect form already has a built in mastered super saiyan since his aura is yellow and stamina control is good and his super perfect form has ssj2 built into it with it's lightning aura and all so he can't stack kaioken on top of it.
Why didn't he use it before going perfect that's a toriyama forgor moment but even if he didn't forget he would've kept Imperfect Cell's power same while using kaioken to what it is in the manga rn without kaioken it would just be a visual and a reference story wise nothing would've changed.
Cell doesn’t use Kaioken for the same reason that Goku doesn’t. He’s a super Saiyan.
"He explode."
Easy peasy. Super saiyan is too volatile to properly use kaiouken.
He probably thought it was beneath him or something
Cells forgets he can do things
It could have been possible that Toriyama realized that at that point of the series, Cell would have been undefeatable. So to make it where the Z fighters had the chance to beat Cell is to simply not have him use Kaio Ken.
I think the reason he didn't use Kaioken is for the same reason he never uses the Spirit Bomb. And in another sense, why he never used Super Saiyan (since he's technically part Saiyan). Kaioken is specifically a technique that King Kai invented. For that reason only he can teach it to someone. It's not a technique that can be acquired by having their cells in you (I don't know how any of those other attacks work that way though, since they all have to be taught, but perhaps the information was transmitted to Cell through the computer from the collected information Dr. Gero had on them all). It could also be that the info collectors never survived the interaction with Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga, so Gero, and by extension Cell, don't have that information.
As for the Spirit Bomb, even if they could get the information, it would be impossible for Cell to use it, because it requires a pure heart to use. It's why the Spirit Bomb bounced off of Gohan rather than injuring him. Even if it's not a pure of heart thing, Cell is still too evil to use it. But like Kaioken, Gero may have never had the chance to collect the Spirit Bomb information.
As for why I mentioned Super Saiyan, even without the information, he should still theoretically be able to use the power since that is a physiological thing. However, Super Saiyan is powered by Righteous Fury. And there's nothing Righteous about Cell.
Althernatively (and ignoring the Super Saiyan argument), it could simply be that Kaioken, like the Spirit Bomb, are divine powers. Dr. Gero, being a scientists, probably wouldn't understand that concept even if he believed it was real. So he would be unable to provide Cell with the information because it doesn't match his scientific outlook.
My argument: Cell is a super saiyan. He literally can’t use kaioken or he’d probably just blow up.
Maybe early stages of Cell could? But he didn’t have the finesse to use Goku’s techniques well until perfect form. With SPC being the one who can actually use the advanced stuff like instant transmission and, according to the games, spirit bomb.
Piccolo's technical is just Explosive Demon Wave/Destructive Wave. Mike knows that -_-
Asking real questions hell yeah 🤟🏻.
He could have received the Kaioken when he got the Instant Transmission
I'm glad that Cell didn't/couldn't use the Kaio-ken. It doesn't even make sense that he knows how to use the Genki Dama considering that those techniques require specific training from a god and shouldn't be able to be understood through computer algorithms.
Cell lost memories of certain attacks that Frieza had during their fight on Namek, plus he would have to undergo training for this specific technique as it is a lot (miles and leaps) different than Instant Transmission or the Genkidama.
It is probable he could indeed do it, but like I said, he'd need to train with King Kai for that; as whatever memory that Frieza had of Goku using Kaioken on him...did not transfer to Cell's conciousness.
He would have had to see Goku use it on him.
While Cell can regenerate it's implied he does have a stamina cap, unlike Androids 17 and 18. You can tell from his fight with Goku during the Cell games. Now think about his position. In every fight he's pretty much either been dominated or was dominating. If he can use Kaioken it might help him out in the moment but would leave him drained of energy. Arguably the only instance where it could have helped him much would be either against Piccolo the first time they meet or Super Vegeta, but even then he'd have to make it last long enough to actually get the kill, and then still has Trunks there. Same with Gohan. It would be easier for him to just take down the planet than use Kaioken to get Gohan and be drained.
The easiest answer is Toriyama forgot about the Kaio-Ken.
Yeah I'd argue cell channeling super saiyan energy can't use Kaioken as he doesn't have the mental state and calmness to use the ability.
Can u do a video on why doesnt goku and vegeta get their potential unlocked even krillin and piccolo got big power boost from it
why would they get their potential unlocked?
@UnlimitedRadioButNoSoap why wouldn't they, it's no reason not to and it's gonna greatly benefit them
Just for plot convenience. If he could, and maybe had the ability to bust a 20x kaioken, he would have reached super Buu level 😂 Gohan ssj2 would have been totally stomped
Im not even sure if that would reach fatbuu level
Adding the weight of the Kaioken to all that power would cause it to give way after a short time
@@SS4KirinBoltyes it would. Perfect cell is 300 billions, while Fat Buu is 3 trillions.
@@matteocicaloni regular super buu was not that much weaker than fused ss3 gotenks.
Okay, one The Palace Invasion Arc is fucking incredible. Two, I think there's something to be said for it being a thing that was learned by the genetic components, not created. Cell didn't utilize instant transmission either
I think Toriyama either forgot about it (which has happened before) or he purposefully didn't use it because it introducing a hard number system back in would make things annoying. We have to remember that the Android/Cell arcs are where Toriyama finally did away with power levels for good. The SSJ1/2/3 multipliers and all this stuff were given to us in databooks and stuff but not in the manga (Toei would continue to use the kaioken for anime filler and movies but that wasn't with Toriyama's involvement, even the SSJB Kaioken X 20 was DBS anime only and in the DBS manga, Goku only briefly uses an version of kaioken stacking on perfected blue against Jiren but without any sort of stated numerical multiplier). Toriyama would also have to start giving everyone kaioken since a lot of the Z senshi trained with Kaioo anyway (Tien even notes that Goku should be capable of 10x Kaioken against Freeza so he knew enough about it to make such a statement) and even explain why Piccolo didn't use it against Freeza.
Toriyama would also have to more precisely define people's power levels again since Kaioken applies a straight up multiplier to all stats and power level. I can understand how that would make writing fights and arcs extremely annoying.
Imagine right before cell loses the beam struggle to gohan he shouts kaioken, then it's over for Gohan 🤣.
I think he was using it. In the fight against Frieza Goku Incorporated into his normal fighting style. I remember King Kai stating that Goku was using the Kaioken and still getting beaten by Frieza. Even though the animation was that of regular Goku.
If he trained during the ten days, they would probably need ssj3 gogeta.
To me, thanks to the info you gave us, the strength of Cell in this first form before absorbing all those people had to be as strong as mecha Frieza. I say this since he was the strongest or of all those cells at the time everything was collected, and if we go with scaling up, I guess we could conclude that the Saiyan cells 'sensed' that power and equated to that level. Know this should be on your other video but something I have been thinking about for a little now. Appreciate the info and insight I never had the ability to do on my own.
My best theory would be that Cell could only use this technique once he was in his perfect form. His imperfect or semi perfect body could not handle the form. The technique does a number on your body and requires a lot of ki control. Perhaps because Cell’s body wasn’t fully developed, the Kaioken would risk damaging Cell’s core. There is even a good chance that it would have still risked his core in his perfect form. The Kaioken seems to damage/strain the body differently from most transformations in Dragon Ball. That’s the best theory I can come up with other than using Dragon Ball Super logic. The DBS logic would imply that Cell just didn’t have the Ki control to use it. Goku could only use it in tandem with Blue because of the Ki control that form required.
Most likely forgot he had it with like 20 more techniques he had on him. And thank god he did cause he def could pull kaioken X 10, maybe even more
My working theory is kaioken is a multiplier with no actual visual red effects 🤷♂️
Educated guess but the cells used for Cell didn’t exactly come from post Saiyajin Saga Goku. It seems like while they collected Freeza’s and Cold’s cells, Goku and the other Earth based warriors had their cells collected from the previous sagas, namely from King Piccolo era, etc. Cell could, therefore, only use certain techniques natively BUT never forget that Goku has a knack for replicating abilities on sight so Cell could have inherited such a technique.
Cell seems too self-absorbed for his own good, he has all the powers of Goku but he doesn't realize Goku's greatest ability is his ability to adapt to a fight and outsmart his opponents. It's actually brilliant writing if they meant for it to be seen this way lol. Good video as always 👍
Vegeta sacrifice during Buu should have resembled Cell bloating at king kai planet
With all the sayain cells he has I couldn’t imagine how powerful he could get. I believe if he could see kaioken he would do it! If cell trained his ass off just imagine freza cells and all the sayain cells kicking in he would definitely be a treat! Would love to see cell come back for an ark
Plus it’s arguable everyone is using the kaioken considering piccolos statement in the same arc where he can raise and concentrate his energy when he fought android 20
I'd like to think that other than it being just a matter of how the plot turned out in the end, that cell maybe thought, in his ego, that kaioken must have been a form of cheating when it comes to the cell games, or that he felt like he was too superior to everyone else to need the benefits of the kaioken multipliers.
In his imperfect form he did constantly. Watch the Android 16 fight again. It was just Yellow not red.
The answer is likely that using it is utterly stupid 9/10 times, and goku is just insane and decides to gamble his life on a heart attack constantly to win fights, where as cell looked at the loaded revolver with 5 rounds loaded in the 6 round cylinder and said "nope, not worth the powerup".
Imagine a x4 Kamehameha as a response to Vegeta's Final Flash? NOT AGAIN!!!!!
There's a risk to using Kaioken that other techniques don't have. Unless you have complete mastery over it, the Kaioken could destroy the user.
Wasn't cell made from a version of Goku before he learned Kioken? Because i remember them talking about how Cell was made ages ago, but only escaped "recently" when he was on the show.
Maybe he didn't want to explode, since he was a "super saiyan"
Before watching, I want to sum it up to, there are abilities that must be trained to learn them and can't be encoded in the DNA as a skill would make sense.
Why didnt i think of this? It just sounds so damn cool. I know kaioken isnt the best technique im that saga, but man is it my fave technique
I’m gonna assume either A: Toriyama forgot about the Kaioken
Or B: He didn’t have Cell use it cuz he would have won with the higher multipliers
Ultimate Perfect Cell is back XD
AS Goku said when he went Super Saiyan Blue Kaiyoken. He had to practice a lot and really focus hard or else it would have really fucked his energy up and possibly killed himself doing it. It's possible cell knew this also and didn't want to risk killing himself trying to get a power boost.