How Europe Redrew France: 1814 vs 1815
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- Europe had different plans for France both times they defeated Napoleon. How did the original peace look before Napoleon came back and they scrapped it?
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VOTE YOUR OWN 1815 TREATY OF PARIS HERE:
forms.gle/R57fGWJzac6vE6EZ8
VOTING ENDS FEB 28, 2024!
00:00 - Intro
01:05 - The Paris Treaties
02:40 - France's Borders
04:22 - Other aspects of the 1814 Treaty
05:27 - VOTING TIME
Music used:
"At Launch" and "Bossa Antigua" by Kevin MacLeod
found at www.incompetech.com
Sources:
- "A definitive treaty of peace between his Britannic majesty and his most Christian majesty Louis XVIII." Signed: 30 May 1814.
- "Definitive Treaty between Great Britainand France, signed at Paris the 20th November 1815, and other Conventions and Documents." Signed: 20 Nov 1815
You’ve got a month to vote your own Treaty of Paris. Can’t wait to see what crazy decisions you all make!
Where do I vote?
Not an option but give Alsace to the German Confederation/Restored HRE (non Habsburg ruled)
Hehe
And yet another timeline shall be forever cursed!
I voted
I live in Saarbrücken so we would have been directly affected by a change of th treaty of Paris
cool
Finish your vic 2 mods
You're the Oh my Damagaram guy
@@EdbertWeisly Oh yea I am 😅
Maréchal Ney was born in Saarland you should be part of France since ww2
@EmperorTigerstar I know it's more work for you. But have you considered adding a map tool for the vote, so that at the end of voting, we can see what our choices would have looked like. I really missed that on the Versailles vote!
It's also fine if not, this is already fun enough :)
The full map will be shown in the results video.
@@EmperorTigerstarI think he means an external tool, so user could see what the map looks like based on selecting, deselecting, partitioning each territory
As cool as it'd be, I don't think Google forms have that sort of functionality.
@@CarpeVerpa you could technically do it by using a bunch of pages and making every possible combination manually, but it would be a lot of work. sadly there probably is no way to do it efficiently with scripting or whatever.
As a map guy, I have previously looked into this niche topic on my own. I'm glad you made video about it. If I could suggest a video, would be one with a detailed map of the protestant reformation over time. Surely it is an ambitious project but no one has done it on youtube so far.
Now imagine if Napoleon SOMEHOW for the 3rd time came back and the end the borders become even worse, like loosing Alsace-Lorraine
That would be interesting. Maybe his loyalists hatch a scheme to get him back to france. Some guys sneak onto the island and kidnap him. Idk how they’d get through the whole Atlantic while being hounded by the royal navy though
ww1 begins earlier or some other version of ww1 starts since germany warred france for alsace because of the hate that stemmed from napoleon and the french were happy to fight ww1 against germany because of the france prussian wars
Somehow, Napoleon returned...
Sounds like something Disney would cook up
Lmao, he is emperor for the third time for 10 days, but is exiled all the way to some island off the coast of New Zealand (the near-antipode of Paris)
@@anthonyn.7379 exiled to the Johnson atoll
Just started and I can already see this is going to be a sick video
nice video, glad ur doing another treaty viewer voting thing. last one was fun
As always, I found this quite an informative video! Now, I know how the 1814 and 1815 Treaties of Paris were different, as well as how vague the 1814 treaty was.
Thanks for the information!
Informative and entertaining as always! I voted in the poll about the 1814/15 treaty and I tried to keep the mindset of containing large powers that could be potentially dangerous, but not so hard that nationalism gets stoked and they get really pissed. At the same time, I also tried to consolidate some of the smaller states to offer other trade-related political interests that would be less likely to spill over into war, since warring in commercially important areas tends to drag down trade for everyone.
Then what did you choose to Poland?
@@jackyex I think I picked the "alter the partition borders" option? In retrospect I probably should have made the buffer state
@@bolshevikY2K well, considering that in real life Tsar Constantine was adamant to have all of Poland or declare war for it, I think the choice you made seems totally logical if you were someone in those times, and like. The Polish Border was quite Stable considering it survived without major tensions between the Three bordering countries until WW1
I had some ideas while filling in the poll, mostly for some ideas of the next Vote Your Own Treaty;
The Potsdam Conference.
The Bretton Woods Agreement.
The Treaty of Westphalia.
Seems like not a lot of territory lost.
In 1814 charles count of artois agreed to go back to the 1792 borders way too quickly ! There was no negotiations on that really so the whole left bank of the rhine was just given up
Compare to Germany's losses after WWI and WWII. The snail eaters got away very easily.
@@francisdec1615 france lost the netherlands half of italy the left bank of the rhine ? Compared to the danzig corridor half of silesia and the ruhr
@@powderedwiglouis1238 They only occupied that for a short while. Germany lost all its gains in both WW AND provinces that had been German for 700 years.
@@francisdec1615 when you're defeated you get screwed over
The crazy thing is that Napoleon III got back Savoy and many other Italian/Sardinian territories in exchange of supporting the Italians against Austria.
Great initiative.
I understand the focus of the Treaty of Paris is France, but I just feel the Peninsular theater was a bit overlooked. The dispute of Olivença between Portugal and Spain dates precisely to this time, and the conflict between the Treaty of Badajoz vs the Treaty of Paris.
Nice video
Also first
No one gives a single crap that you where first@@user-eu4pg2io1u
I just finished voting and I can't wait to see the video in March! (Most of my decisions harmed France)
On Question 20, giving French Guyana to Netherlands as well would also have been an option. Personally, I'd have been most in favour of removing European power from the area altogether. I went for voting as part of Portugal/Brazil.
As a french, thank you for talking about this subject, totally forgotten
Can you reopen the forms thing? just to do it for fun
I'm just wondering what was that squiggle of territory in southeast France that used to be its own thing before being annexed.
the big enclave? that land had a long history being the capital of the papal states or just being a realm of the papal states. (with a rivalry within between avignon & rome for legitimacy over the catholic church, there should be a TED-Ed video about 3x popes) the kingdom of france before would not invade such lands as it would be an attack against the papal states.
@@martinsto8190 I had a feeling that may have been the reason. Thanks for the confirm.
*Most importantly* Prussia wouldn't be able to become a great power without the vastly rich territories of the Rhineland.
It would be weird to be in the tiny parts of land that swaps countries (multiple times)
Maybe less weird than you might think though... the centralized nation-states with a discernable presence to even the politically uninfluential were only just starting to take shape. Especially for places like Germany or Italy.
Funny idea for the voting: recreate the hre but only in France and split france up into a bunch of states. Then make Germany dived in two, the southern half being given to Bavaria and the north going to Prussia. This is incredibly stupid
I started watching without even knowing the subject
Britain gets everything! (In the vote)
Chinland video when?
In 1814, was Saarbrücken part of France or not ?
Not sadly
It was @@AixlaachenPax1801
*MAKE SAXONY GREAT AGAIN!*
Großherzogtum Baden shall be awarded Alsace
Britain took a lot of Dutch Colonies, but only Suriname was mentioned in the Treaty Vote, I would have expected there to be more
In the survey, “give it to Austria” is one of the responses for what to do about Napoleon.
Is that basically a typo or is the suggestion to just make him a prisoner inside Austria? 😂
I hope the votes for the Treaty of Paris are crazy, you know I was crazy once.....
0:04 "Napoleon tried to take over Europe, not once but twice", nope British propaganda, the Coalition wars were declared on him. Where defensive imperialism ends is debatable, but Hundred Days certainly about taking over anything, but securing his throne back.
"defensive imperialism" 🥴
Same line of thinking as the people who claim that the Soviets invading poland in 1920 was defensive.
@@jackbucher2049 Better comparison would be USSR invading Germany in 1945. Remember than the first battles of French Revolutionary wars were fought on French soil.
@@mrsupremegascon
The Napoleonic wars started out defending France, but then he got a bit drunk on his own power and tried to control all of Europe. After about 1806, the defensibility of his actions declines massively. (starting with betraying and invading his spanish allies and then Russia). He could have been a much better leader by showing some restraint and less hubris.
@@jackbucher2049
I kinda agree, history is well made, as the 2 wars of agression he has done, Spain and Russia, would be the wars that lead to his demise.
Aside of those 2 instances, he really tried to have peace with the European Monarchs. but those Monarchs never wanted it. Even if he showed restrain, they would come back at thim.
So he had to diminishing their powers to deter them to do so, and as each time he did, he gave them even more reasons to attack him again.
He was stuck in a vicious circle with them.
For me European Monarch get at least 50% of the blame for the Napoleonic wars, maybe more.
Ah yes Napoleon should have let France invaded because he can't beat the sacred lnbred monarchies even worse he should have left the germans under serfdom being good sIaves to their lords how dare he ever questioned the mighty Habsburgs jaws 😂😂 @@jackbucher2049
One option that is not included in the forms: I would reinstate the independence of Elsass, but as a unified state. That's the minimum I would do.
Bavaria being restored its Palatine and Rhenish its land in its entirety and receiving connecting lands from the secularized ecclesiastical states (like Trier and Cologne)
I voted
Everytime he says France he quacks. 2:54
How is it that the Europeans can make savagery look so sophisticated?
While I think it's really cool to get to vote on the borders ourselves, I feel like we're missing the political-diplomatic aspect of it. There's no real consideration of how each power would react if we favored one over the other, or specifically, how the people negotiating post-Napoleonic Europe absolutely had to balance the interests of everyone involved to get an acceptable outcome, even if that led to different borders than they might otherwise choose.
Historia Civilis does an excellent recap of exactly what happened during the Congress of Vienna, and how there were a lot of behind-the-scene aspects to each decision made. Something like "Russia contributed to Napoleons defeat and has a massive army, they expect something out of the peace deal" is absolutely a consideration in a scenario like this.
Bigger France + bigger saxony + return of Poland and Venice ? Noice
Why is there no option to give Tobago to the glorious duchy of Kurland?
Yeah, but did you guys see the prequel 'How France Redrew Europe'?
interesting fact, Sweden gave Swedish-Pomerania to Denmark after annexing Norway. Why? Idfk why, maybe they felt bad for them??? It was however immediately given to Prussia in the congress of Vienna.
2:23 this looks so awful haha😂
I would like to see the Duchy of Poland be independent after 1815 - how would that have changed the next 130 years?
Excuse me, I don't believe I see 'make France defunct as a state' in the voting.
Me when there's no option to give Norway independence: 😡
Anyway, good video 👍
Elba, not Alba.
I dropped everything and I spent the last five hours in the French history section of my local library, and I saw not one single reference to either the Treaty of Paris of 1814 nor the Treaty of Paris of 1815. Though I saw a bunch of photos of the Arc de Triomphe. So I don't know where you are getting your sources, but it seems to me that these treaties simply do not exist, that makes more sense. French defeat with Napoleon with a once juggernaut military in shambles?! Enemy troops marching down Paris in both 1814 and 1815?! France under military occupation?! France losing territory?! France at the mercy of the rest of Europe getting the Bourbon Monarchy shoved right us their a......as Napoleon dies in a remote desolate island a broken man?! NO, you are wrong! The French are claiming glory, triumph and conquest with Napoleon, for the past 200 years. Are you saying that the French have been simply pretending that they triumphed with Napoleon, all this time?! Impossible! Such noble, honest, enlightened and an ethical bunch are the French people, they would never pretend that they won when they lost, especially with such poor results of these treaties. So whatever sources that you got these treaties from, clearly it is an Anglo/German/Iberian/LatinX/Sicilian Mafia/Major League Baseball/ Roger Goodell pre-Super Bowl conspiracy or propaganda that has to do with Taylor Swift somehow, it is clearly that. I would believe that conspiracy a 1,000 times before I believe that honest noble and enlightened France is simply pretending that they won when they lost with Napoleon. Especially since the French have no egos or excessive pride.
Maybe if Napoleon didn't return the Monarchy would be more stable and might not be seen as vulnerable and so maybe the Revolution of 1830 might not happen (emphasize on maybe)
I basically just gave the British what they wanted. Rule Britannia!
Not really big loses so I guess some feared another Napoleon who would be wanting to retake big losses causing wars. Napoleon was pitiless with other empires.
Concerning the vote. It's lame to propose to partition Belgium along an at the time non-existing linguistic frontier and naming it with a yet to emerge Wallonia.
Why not the whole of Belgium if we do that ? Feels like nationalist French fantasy but not really grounded.
The real move would have been to give back Lille and Cambrai to the southern Low-Countries.
The idea was to not create a Napoleonic wars round 3 and it worked
belgian spotted
@@smal750 Yes.
5th!
Why did they let France keep Elsass though? It could have easily been turned into an independent German principality
Because all the Western flank of the Rhine is rightfully part of France and have nothing to do with the war mongering eastern germans who occupied slavic land like Prussia
Groß Bayern Uber Alas
I feel cheated! You didn't actually give us the option to Balkanize France! :)
I just want Portugal to take back Olivença
2:35 España hubiera recuperado el Roselló y ocupado el Pais Vasco franconavarro.
but spain was weak and irrelevant
24 min
2 min ago
RAGHH 9th comment
just let france have its napoleonic borders back, whats the big deal?
there are some mistakes in this video :
1) when Napoleon tried to take over Europe et second time ?
2) The Congress of Vienna was finished before Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo
3) The second treaty of Paris was not negociated during the Congress of Vienna
4) Purssia did not gain territories in the Rhineland to watch France but because they did not gain all of Saxony as they wanted so they were given others territories as compensation
Hi
what is your fav austrian painter
Preußen deserved more
Nah
russia should have got more of poland tbh ngl imo btw sts poznan/culmerland tarnopol krakow and maybe even bukovina and galician territories east of lviv
Bro? ☠️
@@Cocacolaespuma394 Abraham's seed destroyed Russia
@@martinsto8190Denmark and Russia uniting would be a blast
You're literally Tsar Constatine
@@jackyex the Male-line descendants of Elimar the 1st of Oldenburg will be kings of Russia and Ukraine again soon...
Why was Poland barely mentioned? In real life they discussed it a ton and formed congress Poland and gave it a constitution and tons of things like that, I voted to give Prussia Poznan and to form an independent Poland, but I don't want it to be just the duchy of Warsaw I want it to be a very beefy Poland and there weren't really any options for that
Because polish land was desired by the three powers surrounding it, Prussia, Austria and especially Russia. Plus, those three countries were the owners of that land before the napoleonic wars, and weren't likely to accept polish independence. Congress Poland was a push in real life
@@donpollo3154 well that kind of supports that idea that it should have been included in the poll, if there were lots of different powers that wanted it and lots of possible outcomes
It's because it would be unrealistic, Russia already controlled most of Poland by this point, they actually gave up control of Poznan and Galicia because of the Treaty, the Tsar Wanted all, ALL of Poland, and he was preparing to war if he didn't get it all. The IRL treaty was already quite the compromise.
@@donpollo3154Prussia didn't actually really care much about Polish land further than Poznan and Königsberg, infact they might have been glad for a independent Poland next to it which would act as a buffer to the great Russian Empire.