Thank you so much for doing this interview! I think the Western Rite is going to be a big factor in redeeming the Catholic Church in the East. I look forward to hearing Fr Peter on your show in future. He did his diaconal year at my parish (St Patrick's in Columbus Ohio), and is back now.
My Bishop implied to me that he thinks the Unite Eastern Catholics will eventually take over the entire Papal Communion, as the Novis Ordo and all that comes with it continues to rot the Papal Latin Rite from within. The Unites, however, are immune to Bugnini’s modernist poison. As per the compromise granted, They are indistinguishable from Orthodox in every way EXCEPT acknowledging the Pope’s supreme jurisdiction, but otherwise are left alone. Saying the Filioque is entirely optional and NONE chose to use it! If they take over completely, they will be MUCH more reasonable in negotiating for reunification.
@@reasonandtheology Haa, yeah, I know. I don't. It is fun to troll him though. Also on my last question I mistakenly thought Fr. said he was ROCOR, so I'm sure the question wouldn't of made too much sense to him.
Is the Latin liturgy or rite being used in the WOC a pre Schism Tridetine Rite? Or are there several or different pre Latin/Western Liturgies being used? Thanks.
@@reasonandtheology Ok I sent you a dm to the gmail in the business inquiries section on the channel. I think that's what you meant? Lol I'm sorry if I'm making this way harder than it should be.
The Confession of St. Peter Mogila is the most comprehensive systematic theology of the Orthodox Church, I don’t care what Fr John Romanides and the 20th century “neo-patristic” movement says. Change my mind.
Fr. Cardine should get a copy (15 Volumes) of Servant of God, Dom Prosper Gueranger's "The Liturgical Year". It is known as 'the Summa of the liturgy' (western of course). Dom G. breaks it all down by liturgical season and at the beginning of each liturgical season he explains: The History... The Mystery... The Practices... and this barely touches the surface of what he explains, he essentially becomes your in-home Priest; or in the case of someone like Fr. Cardine, an in-home/in-Parish consultant. In the Roman Rite I like to call it a blueprint for restoration of what was lost and not just what was lost Sunday to Sunday; but every single day of the liturgical year; even each segment of each day of the liturgical year; ---- he is right there at every segment of every day with the prayers and his commentery (even commentery on each prayer of each segment of the day tailored to the liturgical season).
I recommend getting familiar with the format (ie. Table on Contents) before using website/HTML formats of this. To do that, one could still use a free digital version, but go with the PDF version first ( you can access for free, all 15 volumes in book format/PDF at archives.org)so you have it exactly as it appears in book form. Otherwise, it's will be too much, --- like a fire-hose effect if you first tried using non-PDF versions (like being dumped in the middle of a forest). One should have a good handle on the Table of Contents before breaking away from the book format; and all 15 volumes have almost exactly the same Table of Contents.
It's a bit of a similar situation as a Roman Catholic diocesan priest who is asked to learn the Eastern Rite and be biritual, but then later is asked to stick to only the Roman rite for celebrations. Of course he would just stick to the Roman Rite. Currently, the Western Rite Orthodox don't have their own bishop or church so they're under Byzantine bishops.
I love Father Patrick Cardine, and I'm in no place of authority, but I really don't understand how Palamas and Aquinas are reconcilable. Not only was Barlaam, who held to Thomistic theology, condemned by the Church, but their theologies are fundamentally opposed. Thomism rejects the essence-energies distinction, which was upheld by countless fathers and the Ninth Ecumenical Council.
At least he is honest enough to admit that the western rite is temporary and he is ready to brush off his Greek vestments and be a Byzantine. This makes perfect sense since the Antiochians have indeed made this demand of all of their western rite parishes in Great Britain, New Zealand, Australia, and the Philippines. Obviously a denomination limited to a single ethnic expression, and yet still calling itself Catholic, does not bother him too much.
@@kd5tmu . Actually, the vast majority of the western rite parishes under the Antiochians (even in North America) have already gone over the Greek rite, with the full support of the hierarchy. As mentioned the Greek rite has been imposed on all other areas of the Antiochian church where they "formerly" had western rite communities. To pretend otherwise is an inability to accept reality. This priest is simply accepting the obvious.
@@kd5tmu . Really? Since the closed all the western rite churches in Australia, Great Britain, New Zealand and the Philippines, this is exactly what AOCANA will do. Most of their so-called western rite churches have already adopted the Greek rite.
@hieronymus b excuse me, but it is the Greeks themselves who have more than once and on a very high level declared, "Orthodoxy is Hellenism, and Hellenism is Orthodoxy." I don't have to make this stuff up.
@hieronymus b But their Byzantine tradition is the same as the Greek, and until the end of the 19th century was still celebrated in Greek and also until relatively recently all of the Greek Orthodox patriarchs of Antioch were Greeks. Their official title is the GREEK Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch.
Get rid of post schism practices like the monstrance, sacred hearts, and pews which aren’t consistent with orthodoxy. Many ROCOR western rite parishes don’t have pews. All of them are forbidden from doing the monstrance and the sacred hearts.
Just my issue as well. The Antiochians have closed all western rite communities in Great Britain, New Zealand, Australia, and the Philippines...it is a dishonest property grab.
The last 3 Popes have all made strong statements that Orthodox Priests, Deacons and Laity should work for unity in obedience to their Orthodox Bishops, as those Bishops are in a state of Ecclesiastical converse with the Pope.
I think Western Orthodoxy will reinvigorate the Orthodox Church and bring about a renaissance. It will be a unifying force for good.
Gosh! Fr. Patrick is awesome! I pray for our reunification. ❤️💙
You have to get Fr. Patrick on again. Fascinating perspectives!
Father Patrick is my pastor. It's kind of weird seeing him in his study on what is essentially 21st century television.
Thank you so much for doing this interview! I think the Western Rite is going to be a big factor in redeeming the Catholic Church in the East. I look forward to hearing Fr Peter on your show in future. He did his diaconal year at my parish (St Patrick's in Columbus Ohio), and is back now.
thetonyb thank you for watching!
My Bishop implied to me that he thinks the Unite Eastern Catholics will eventually take over the entire Papal Communion, as the Novis Ordo and all that comes with it continues to rot the Papal Latin Rite from within. The Unites, however, are immune to Bugnini’s modernist poison. As per the compromise granted, They are indistinguishable from Orthodox in every way EXCEPT acknowledging the Pope’s supreme jurisdiction, but otherwise are left alone. Saying the Filioque is entirely optional and NONE chose to use it! If they take over completely, they will be MUCH more reasonable in negotiating for reunification.
Good interview! Glad I stumbled upon your channel Michael. Hope all is well. God bless.
Daniel Brooks thank you. I meant to say that I wouldn’t put too much stock into what Jay Dyer says, btw.
@@reasonandtheology Haa, yeah, I know. I don't. It is fun to troll him though.
Also on my last question I mistakenly thought Fr. said he was ROCOR, so I'm sure the question wouldn't of made too much sense to him.
Daniel Brooks he is very entertaining at times lol.
@@reasonandtheology Yep, his satire and comedy does crack me up.
The Western Rite is beautiful
The Confession of Dositheus is the full Patristic Consensus of the Holy Fathers, both Greek and Latin, change my mind.
Is the Latin liturgy or rite being used in the WOC a pre Schism Tridetine Rite? Or are there several or different pre Latin/Western Liturgies being used? Thanks.
Any citation for what Fr. Cardine references at 27:30? I have never heard that about JPII before...
John Joyce send Erick a message. I skimmed the Oliver book he is referencing here but I think Erick read all of it and may recall.
@@reasonandtheology Did UA-cam change the DM feature? I'm having trouble figuring it out.
John Joyce no. Not to my knowledge. Send me a message on messenger and I’ll get you in touch with Erick.
@@reasonandtheology Ok I sent you a dm to the gmail in the business inquiries section on the channel. I think that's what you meant? Lol I'm sorry if I'm making this way harder than it should be.
John Joyce hmmm I don’t see it. Email me at reasonandtheology@gmail.com and I’ll get the question to him.
How many Western Rite Orthodox parishes are there in the US?
Not enough haha
The Confession of St. Peter Mogila is the most comprehensive systematic theology of the Orthodox Church, I don’t care what Fr John Romanides and the 20th century “neo-patristic” movement says. Change my mind.
Do western rite orthodox pray the rosary???
Yes
@@Emper0rH0rde Do they follow Latin the Credo with the Filioque ?
Yes, western rite uses the rosary. In fact, Fr Patrick’s parish sells rosaries!
@@johnsteiner2960 No, they do not use the filioque.
Does St. Seraphim of Sarov pray the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos?
Fr. Cardine should get a copy (15 Volumes) of Servant of God, Dom Prosper Gueranger's "The Liturgical Year". It is known as 'the Summa of the liturgy' (western of course). Dom G. breaks it all down by liturgical season and at the beginning of each liturgical season he explains:
The History...
The Mystery...
The Practices...
and this barely touches the surface of what he explains, he essentially becomes your in-home Priest; or in the case of someone like Fr. Cardine, an in-home/in-Parish consultant. In the Roman Rite I like to call it a blueprint for restoration of what was lost and not just what was lost Sunday to Sunday; but every single day of the liturgical year; even each segment of each day of the liturgical year; ---- he is right there at every segment of every day with the prayers and his commentery (even commentery on each prayer of each segment of the day tailored to the liturgical season).
I recommend getting familiar with the format (ie. Table on Contents) before using website/HTML formats of this. To do that, one could still use a free digital version, but go with the PDF version first ( you can access for free, all 15 volumes in book format/PDF at archives.org)so you have it exactly as it appears in book form. Otherwise, it's will be too much, --- like a fire-hose effect if you first tried using non-PDF versions (like being dumped in the middle of a forest). One should have a good handle on the Table of Contents before breaking away from the book format; and all 15 volumes have almost exactly the same Table of Contents.
He might already have it :)
What is western rite ortgodoxy?
I think it's what St Cuthbert practiced
Wait so he won’t protect the Latin tradition either of his superiors say no more Latin mass?? That’s not reassuring.
It's a bit of a similar situation as a Roman Catholic diocesan priest who is asked to learn the Eastern Rite and be biritual, but then later is asked to stick to only the Roman rite for celebrations. Of course he would just stick to the Roman Rite. Currently, the Western Rite Orthodox don't have their own bishop or church so they're under Byzantine bishops.
He would submit to the authority of his bishop.
I love Father Patrick Cardine, and I'm in no place of authority, but I really don't understand how Palamas and Aquinas are reconcilable. Not only was Barlaam, who held to Thomistic theology, condemned by the Church, but their theologies are fundamentally opposed. Thomism rejects the essence-energies distinction, which was upheld by countless fathers and the Ninth Ecumenical Council.
Barlaam was not a Thomist. Please don't conflate the two.
Yes. I don't think Fr. Cardine was contradicting that.
I don't think Thomas rejects e/e distinction from what I can tell-- he and Palamas are using two different terminologies.
@@amg2598 It certainly does. That is the crux of the issue
At least he is honest enough to admit that the western rite is temporary and he is ready to brush off his Greek vestments and be a Byzantine. This makes perfect sense since the Antiochians have indeed made this demand of all of their western rite parishes in Great Britain, New Zealand, Australia, and the Philippines. Obviously a denomination limited to a single ethnic expression, and yet still calling itself Catholic, does not bother him too much.
I think this is a gross misrepresentation of what he said or what the AOCANA will do.
@@kd5tmu . Actually, the vast majority of the western rite parishes under the Antiochians (even in North America) have already gone over the Greek rite, with the full support of the hierarchy. As mentioned the Greek rite has been imposed on all other areas of the Antiochian church where they "formerly" had western rite communities. To pretend otherwise is an inability to accept reality.
This priest is simply accepting the obvious.
@@kd5tmu . Really? Since the closed all the western rite churches in Australia, Great Britain, New Zealand and the Philippines, this is exactly what AOCANA will do. Most of their so-called western rite churches have already adopted the Greek rite.
@hieronymus b excuse me, but it is the Greeks themselves who have more than once and on a very high level declared, "Orthodoxy is Hellenism, and Hellenism is Orthodoxy." I don't have to make this stuff up.
@hieronymus b But their Byzantine tradition is the same as the Greek, and until the end of the 19th century was still celebrated in Greek and also until relatively recently all of the Greek Orthodox patriarchs of Antioch were Greeks. Their official title is the GREEK Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch.
Get rid of post schism practices like the monstrance, sacred hearts, and pews which aren’t consistent with orthodoxy. Many ROCOR western rite parishes don’t have pews. All of them are forbidden from doing the monstrance and the sacred hearts.
Just my issue as well. The Antiochians have closed all western rite communities in Great Britain, New Zealand, Australia, and the Philippines...it is a dishonest property grab.
You are mistaken
Rev. Patrick should take the plunge and kiss the Pope's Ring. He is 75% there!
The last 3 Popes have all made strong statements that Orthodox Priests, Deacons and Laity should work for unity in obedience to their Orthodox Bishops, as those Bishops are in a state of Ecclesiastical converse with the Pope.
@@mertonhirsch4734 interesting, thanks!
Not nice.
Get rid of the Protestant liturgy of “st. Tiknon”