🌟 I should have prefaced this video by stating I have worked with a professional acoustician to optimise both my room and the speaker placement, and I still have the same issue. Due to space limitations I can’t have the speakers mounted on stands behind the desk, and yes, I have tried isolation pucks. I’m also not saying the Neumann’s are bad speakers, they just don’t work for me in my studio. Peace.
A few thoughts and lets go backwards: If the mix lacks mids, then the mids are too loud in the room. Neumanns have incredibly good horizontal dispersion. That means they sound great in untreated rooms, too - but: If you dampen the room according to measurements with speakers with a less perfect sound and mid range scoop, then according to measurements the room will show much more midrange and you may conclude it needs midrange dampening. But if you do that, the room will suck out the mids from the incredibly flat dispersion of Neumanns. Or vice versa: measuring a room with speakers that scoop the lows ad/or highs with their horizontal reflections. Solution: Just remove all the dampening - you will have a higher RT60, but probably a much better sound with the Neumanns. And THEN measure the untreated room with the Neumanns with REW and decide what the room really needs.
I used KH120 for 10 years and never had an issue with the mids, But I am in a properly designed room with sub. Now on the KH310s with sub (KH120 ins the 5.1). The 310s have better transients and much easier to EQ with. Not sonar or room corrections The room design is everything!
Yeh, like I said in the video, for me the problem was the combination of the two (room and speakers). My new speakers (to be revealed) don’t have the same problem.
This is true. Most people have compromised rooms though. SoundiD can help get you in the ball park but the phase correction/time alignment is nowhere near the Neumann DSP and a complete failure compared to Trinnov.
Neumann kh120ii + Kh750 sub + MA-1 = never heard music as clearly in my life, and Ive been in many pro studios. And Im listening in an untreated, odd shaped room… Thank you Neumann, I now have a fighting chance!
Hey! I just bought a pair of Neumann kh310s to replace my Yamaha HS7. I love the kh310 the sound is incredible. However I’ve seen a lot of info about adding a sub to really make them special. Would you recommend this???
@@ARCASIAUKI think for the 310s you don’t need to add a sub, it depends to the musical genre you’re working on. But the frequency of the 310s should go deep enough to get a good mix out of them. The Sub is more for room correction in my opinion. :-) Or you get the IK Multimedia ARC Studio for frequency control and room correction.
@@maxzandermusic Thanks for your suggestion. I might get the sub just for the DSP capability as my room is not the best for treatment. I’m sure this would enhance the 310s in some way!
KH310s here. Have never had any problem with them. Treated room, Sound ID, etc. Got used to them, know how they sound, love them. Focal Alpha Evo have also been amazing ngl
@Ed Thorne Music Production 1. Get rid of your high-back chair. 2. Get rid of your large Reflective Display Monitor smack dab between your monitors (or at least TRY draping a large goose down comforter over the front and back of the display as an A/B) 3. Do you have a Floating Cloud Absorber/Diffusor over your desk close to the front wall and extending out past your mix position? 4. Try bringing the Monitors out to the Front Edge of your Desk. This would apply to ANY monitors that you are using. Apparently you have already made your final decision for the monitors, and I haven't watched any of your newer videos, but I would have advised you to also have tried the Dutch & Dutch 8C. I might suggest the Kii THREE as well, but I think the 8C might even be pushing it in regards to the size for your current space. If you ended up with the PDP MUM8, good on you.
I'm ashamed to say I've been mixing on a pair of JBL LSR305's for about 6 years now. I got them for free, brand new, from Guitar Center due to a refund error they had made, and I suppose I just "forgot" to let them know (I've still forgotten to tell them to this day actually). I'm very happy with my current mixes and I've gotten to the point now where I don't even need to check them in the car anymore, I know they'll be at least 95% there. I think it's because I have just changed my outlook now and focus more on songwriting, arrangement and performance in particular, and the mixes tends to "fall into place" now. In the past it was very easy for me to confuse a bad song with a bad mix, but my philosophy now is that if you have a half decent room, with half decent speakers and a half decent setup, and you go and check your mix in the car, on headphones, with airpods etc, and it COMPLETELY falls apart on you... it's probably not entirely the speakers fault, it could be that you're too focused on the minor details rather than looking at the big picture.
I had a very different experience. i got the 120's, after a few months, my mix decisions were way faster and translated much better, remixes were no longer required for translation purposes. I was so pleased I moved to the 310's. I find them even more precise. The Neumanns to my ears are for more precise than the 100's of speakers gone through my hands. My 2nd monitors at this time are a pair of 10" Tannoy coaxial. Also, I never use DSP room correction in my signal path.
Neumann’s seem to work beautifully for some people and not for others. That’s great they work for you. For me it’s Amphions all day. They’re my speaker for life.
I'm just an diy speaker/audio/music hobbyist and diy a quad tower speaker system that's very revealing. I used soft domes from visaton for tweeter 20mm, and midrange 50mm. For woofer I used the glassfiber gf200. Diyed a crossover with good quality components. I did some room treatment with rockwool as well with a surface of 4x1.2x2.4m. What really helped me figuring things out was having a good reference ie a measuring mike. not sure you've got one, just watched your two most recent videos but didn't hear you mention it. I like the umik1 mike with room eq wizard or REW for short for sweeps of my room from the listening position and the diy speakers at around 1m. Doing this allows you to see what the speakers put out and how the room responds to it without much guesswork, though there are a lot of caveats though. I've also been on a journey how music should sound like and also how speakers should actually sound like, how much detail am I missing? Things like target room response came up and my speakers and room are pretty close to that and it sounds great! You talk a lot about reverb tails. I use my speakers in quad stereo config with a surround sound receiver to get the time of arrival correct. Like how the guys talked about being surrounded in the music with dolby atmos, it's very impressive to behold, even with just 4 speakers! Quad speakers for mixing is likely not useful, but it does let you hear the stereo image more pronounced and you'd be able to spot problems a lot easier. On my receiver I can easily switch to stereo which sounds better for some music styles. Really looking forward to your discoveries!
DAC DAC DAC!!! upgrading to a High Quality Mastering grade DAC was the game changer in how and what I was hearing out of my monitors. Adam S3H and PMC Result 6s
tbh I felt like my speakers were not giving me what I wanted...BUT then I added two subs and it just worked and price was ok added two Genelec 7360 subs to my 8340s and sold my 8341 and 8350s, with SAM I found that splitting everything in my smallish room just worked so I would suggest to most people try adding a sub to your system for a trial.
KH120 user here of 5 yrs. I found the same thing, they are very low mid forward. I've found that going into the eq switches on the back and taking out some low mids and adding the 1db treble boost has turned them into really balanced little monitors that are like microscopes for audio. I also found that getting them as close to me as possible also made a big difference! Definitely temped by the Barefoot Footprint 03s though as an upgrade!
I went from Dynaudio DBM50s to Adam A7vs and noticed a much faster mixing time. They also allowed me to mix brighter without fatiguing my ears. Then I added a KRK 10" sub and have found the low end to be much better translating, especially when making more electronic music. It almost made no difference with my rock mixing. One of the reasons I changed, was because of my small space, needing front ported instead of rear.
i would def switch out your krk sub if its the 10S. the polk audio psw10 is far better. i made this switch on my adams set up and it made a huge difference. cheaper sub too. got this from @asherpostman here on youtube.
Every speaker has a sound and everyone's ears receive frequencies differently, period. It's definitely an important journey to find what works *for your own ears* rather than what an analyzer or some gear reviewer tells you.
you said it all , and same for audio interface and why i do not follow dudes like Krause, specs are one thing but how you can work with something in the real context of a studio and get excellent results compared to other devices is much more important
Just test the presonus scepters and be happy. I use them as my close range speakers. And have some eq curves to test translations. I never ever have a translation issue.
I think it’s worth noting that, while corrective eq solutions like SoundID can work wonders, they are generally going to be less effective at correcting for underreporting caused by phase cancellation at your listening position than correcting for build ups or resonances. It’s really an uphill battle correcting for that. My solution was to try to place my monitors where their response was as flat as I could get pre-treatment, specifically trying to find a spot without too many big deficits, then use acoustic treatment to try and combat the more overt resonances, with SoundID further refining things at the end. Obviously all monitors have a certain sound to them and if they don’t work for you that’s totally understandable, but it can be very worthwhile to experiment with placement just to see if you can negate the negative influences of the room that can’t be as easily corrected with eq and then go from there. Cheers!
Yeh, I’ve had a professional acoustician in to try and get the best response in the room naturally. I agree about SoundiD, it is limited. The Neumann DSP fares better but Trinnov destroys them both. I have a Nova on the way. 🤘
I have built a garden mixing room and treated it well. I have a pair of Kali IN-5's strapped to a Kali WS 6.2 subwoofer which only cost me about £1600! This gives me a superb 4-way system with a great detailed sound, stereo subs in a single speaker and so far my music has translated really well. 😎
Hi, thank you for the video! Just some thoughts from me, haven't had any experience with Neumann monitors but I kind of went through a similar thing with mine years ago. I didn't change them. I worked very carefully with references, not many, three in particular, I lstened a lot of music casually on them not only when I was working and I learned this way to critically listen outside of the room. Whenever I hear about the "sweet" spot and room correction and all of these things, I feel a little embarrassed to think that I use the whole of the house as a listening space. Certain frequencies build up in certain spots outside my mixing room and it's only natural due to the physics of the bass frequencies that travel way further back. I now love my monitors and wouldn't change them for anything but I'm also confident that I can mix a great result through everything as long as I have my three referencies and some time to climatize to a new enviroment. If you haven't done this before, next time you mix leave your door open and go about your house doing everyday chores. Maybe you'd be surprised at what you learn. Cheers!
SAAAAMEEE - also had the Neuman KH120. They are great speakers but tend to make things better sounding. Had the same issue with the mix AND they give sounds more attack than they actually have so e.g. a Kickdrum that doesnt sound that good on other systems sounds good on the Neumanns. Neumann KH120 has also a veeery small listening spot and when you move (like sinking down in your chair as you get tired) the whole EQ curve changes drastically. So the next day the mix sounds way different. Got the Genelec 8351B and it was an amazing choice - all issues I explained before are gone. Very happy now.
Acoustic Treatment, Converters, and Monitors are the main Things, but as you said about your room, it is a matter of being use to hear there. I also suggest gearing up from the UAD converters to the Lynx Audio Aurora n (which I did 4 months ago) and you can hear the difference in the mids, the round lows, and the depth and stereo image.
Hi Ed, great video! I am using the KH80’s which I aligned using the MA1 mic and software and that produced a noticeable improvement. But another improvement was found, following upgrading my Audio interface! I hadn’t realised how big a difference converters actually made. It was always something I would hear said, but I honestly did not take it as seriously as I should have. Now I hear things from KH80’s that I previously didn’t and the improvement is pretty big, so I think that is a huge part of the puzzle in my humble opinion. Next move is the Kh750👍🏾😄
@@EdThorne was using the Apollo twin duo (mk1) but had the Apollo twin x. However, decided not to keep it despite good improvement.! Other RME users recommended (engineers/friends whom opinions i trust ) Have pointed me towards the RME ADI-2 pro fS (black edition) or UCX range for even better converters! So this is the route I plan to take. Have you tested the RME stuff?
@riasure I’ve never used the RME stuff, no. I should probably do a comparison with the Apollo at some point but may as well wait for new models now as they’ve both been out so long.
@@EdThorne yes I agree re. how long the UA Apollo twin x in particular has been out….2019😱. That’s a very long time in terms of technology advancement and also a reason I decided to return mine. Although your mate Paul Third is familiar with the RME stuff! Just so you know RME have a new audio interface Fireface UFX IIII which was released this year 2023! I have heard amazing stuff about it!! I would really like you to do a comparison. That would make for some very interesting content😄.
I have the 310A, 120 ii & KH80. All are ruler flat. The KH120 version 1 was always a weak link, the version 2 is totally re designed and much better in every aspect.
Still using a pair of Mackie HRs here that I bought second hand about 15 years ago. They probably have some serious response issues, but I know how they sound, no need for a sub, and my room is treated well. If I lose sight I just bring up a reference to re-calibrate my ears. Works for me.
Hey, I'm confused, when you listened to the Neumann speakers on Gearfest, you noticed the mid-range signature but your room bumps mid-range, too. So I thought you were going to say you'd improve your room's acoustics, but then you talked about the other speakers. Did you not like the Neumann's when you heard them propperly on Gearfest or why are you opting for new speakers rather than changing your room's acoustics? cheers!
I have done all I can over the last two years to improve the room acoustics but there is still a large mid-range build up. The low mid “presence” or “forwardness” of the Neumann’s is something I identified at GearFest on the whole speaker range and realised it was the brand’s sonic signature that I don’t like. This is compounded by the problems in my room so I decided I need a different speaker as I can’t move/change studios.
IMO even his voice on this video does not sound good. Who is making a public video bashing the Neumanns, instead of showing room EQ analysis measurement by REW? Sonarworks is NOT adequate for room analysis!
@@EdThornehave you considered that the problem might be your ears? I’ve work in live music situations for 2 decades and my ears have become more sensitive to mids. I first started noticing it while using my phone. Phone calls sound more harsh and sometimes, shortly after work (live music), phone calls would hurt my ears.
I also have the Neumann KH 120 A with one Adam Audio Sub 8 and they make a good team... But I also mix with beyerdynamic DT 150 headphones... I just think you just have to listen to a lot of references to know your own tool's strengths and weaknesses. You don't have the perfect room or the perfect tool... God bless
I just replaced my KH120As with PSI A25-Ms. Still using the KH750DSP for room correction and bass extension. That combination is the BEST sound I've heard! The setup I have now is definitely going to up my mixing and mastering game. Now to move into the professional domain, because I've been mixing and mastering pro bono for years. I want to make it a job now I have enough experience and I'm much more consistent.
@@EdThorne Aye! It's funny how we both started with KH120s then moved to PSIs. I was actually looking on eBay for the past few years for "dream monitors", ranging from things like KH310s, Eve Audio, HEDD, Adam, etc. But the A25-Ms randomly showed up for just over £3k as I was about to buy a car with my "new car fund". Best purchase ever! Now I'll be cycling everywhere for the next few months. Priorities! 😂
Until what frequency does you kh750 work and corrects the room? I‘m thinking of upgrading my kh120ii but i have a 10db peak at 140hz which the ma1 system corrects wonderfully and i dont wanna miss that. So i‘m thinking of getting a kh750 to correct the peak again with the ma1 system
A friend of mine that do mastering for a living, got a pair of Dutch & Dutch 8C, since then he told me his work is much accurate than ever. And I can feel it on mixes I send him. It got more accurate than before. The way he analyses music is much better. It's very expensive speakers (12k€), but has internal dsp correction and stuff. Maybe worth to give a listen if you have a place to.
Dave Pensado is currently using D&D8s. I’ve heard they’re pretty special. The £9/10k mark is fiercely competition and very subjective. I haven’t heard these but the similarly priced Ex Machina’s blew me Away!
This is why I went with the kh150 + sub. The KH150 were a little more in the low mid to my ears. But I do use the Neumann MA1 to calibrate them now. I am not doing a lot of music production but for broadcast, it translated really well. Genelecs are usually the name of the game in broadcast but my mixes always translated better on the KH150's on both the worst to the best TV setups compared to my mixes on the Genelecs. Might also be worth it to check filtering (on the speakers themselves) and changing your crossover point before investing in new speakers for those who have issues with their speakers. I dipped mine a bit on the low end.
KH310 & KH750 combo + ME-1 calibration system is absolutely sick. If anyone can't push out a stellar mix on those, they don't know what they're doing. PERIOD. I am more than glad that Neumann is not overhyped brand and so the prices are more affordable than ATC and other "hype" stuff... The only problem I have with this combo is that I can CLEARLY hear all that unnecessary loudness war distortion, compression, clipping & brick wall limiting. Go figure...
Went on my own 2 year journey about 6 years back. I don't have a true pro audio shop here in town so the Neumanns were front runners for me, along with a hi-fi speaker or 2. Finally, I decided to hop a train and go to a real shop with a demo room. I got to AB the Neumanns with PSIs, Genelecs, ATCs, and a few other top names. In the end it was night and day for me, I chose a pair of PSIs. And it was the natural mid range clarity that sold me. Still working long hours on those speakers and they were probably the best investment that I have made on my mixing journey. Best of luck with yours my man
PSIs and Ex Machina’s are in another league! Incredible speakers. ATCs are also lush. Genelecs are a bit clinical for me. Neumann’s are no where near the quality.
@@EdThorne solid solid list right there. It was the frequency response of the PSIs that sold me but their timing accuracy that has really been the deal changer for me. Compression times are so much easier to judge without the time domain smearing caused by lesser speakers. Enjoy the new audio world that you have just opened for yourself
late to the party but what these speakers offer is great imaging and vocal clarity that others just do not, the kh120s have stellar mid range, but if it's too much for you - you can bump up the bass switch in the back all the way up, cut the mids all the way down and the treble one step above flat for a scooped sound + add a switchable sub and a extra scooped sounding monitor pair if you like but keeping the kh120s is a no brainer for me!
I'm a speaker guy too, I can't mix on headphones, I need some air between the generator and my ears :) I know what you're talking about, I've got similar journey with speakers. I demoed many of them in my studio: Ex Machina, Barefoot, APS, Genelec and more. I always felt not self confident enough with all these tools. Until I discovered Amphion, One15 especially. In my opinion One15 with Sub is one of the best mixing setups not only within its price range. It's all about its cohesion in the midrange. Amphion are always showing you the midrange as a monolith structure and they teach you as a personal sound assistant, advisor how to keep this monolith alive, how to polish it, make it even better. It's a magic expierence for me but I know I'm not alone. Give the Amphions a shot, you will be suprised! Best!
@@EdThorne Kii and 8c are imo in the group of transparent speakers, that can show you an issue/not an issue aspect in many subtle shades of gray in superb resolution. Amphions for better or worse can't show you those sound gradients, they will exaggerate issues, make it more black or white. The tick and thigh cohesion in the midrange helps you indicate the issues, you can react so easily, park things right then move to the next thing, bam bam and suddenly the mix is banging. They do have a sound and you learn how to work against this sound, but you do it very fast and effective. I can't work that fast on cardioid speakers like Kii or D8c, there are to many sound details to compute and each detail may distract you from the purpose. I prefer obvious decision making! But I'm aware why those cardioids are so hyped. They're excellent, but not every one is talented enough to make an advantage by using them!
I went through this as well... I had been mixing on a 17 year old pair of $1500 Adam A7s and nothing was translating. I spend 6 hours at a local Vintage King listening to a TON of monitors.... PMC, Genelec, Focal, HEDD, Adam S-series, ATC... So I ended up with ATC SCM25A-Pro Mk IIs... and what a difference. I really wanted the SCM45As but they wont fit in my room. But the 25s are a godsend.
I am guy that records my own music as well as small projects for other mixing on a pair of control 10s made by JBL that use the same 3 way drivers found in the 4412 which I found for a very good price apparently unused save for a single small conference. I have been able to learn little about the history of these speakers but they absolutely transformed my results where translation and really in all categories are measured. Best money I ever spent on any component. Maybe because I worked at a studio using 4412s in the 1990s is a part of why I get such confidence when making those changes In mixing that often I would agonize over before? I am interested to see this series as a speaker guy.
Im sure is more about the room, when i was in my old room my NS10 sounds amazing, never have problems with the translation, recently moved to another place and they no translate as good as before. Acoustic treatment is expensive and make a massive difference,if the space is small you cant do to much. So my solution was VSX, rarely have problems with the translation since i have it, Low end is the most perfect i heard in any monitoring system. Since you reference in all rooms, if sound good on all, you're good. Great video btw! 😁
Thanks, Fernando. Yeh, my room isn’t perfect, but it’s also not the worst. I’ve optimised it as well as I can and the Neumann room correction DSP picks up the slack. Trinnov is on the way too🤘
@@EdThorne dont worry any room is perfect, just take time to developed your ears to the place, with headphones you get out the room of the equation, maybe can you used to check the mids only!
My guess is you should give yourself some more time to "unlearn" how you used to mix, in your old room. Listen to lots of references, and be sure you've nailed the speaker placement 100%
You can tweak the target eq curve on the KH80 DSP as part of the calibration process. Sounds like scooping a bit of the offending frequency range may get things sounding better in your room. That said, a bigger, full range system is always going to be a good investment for a mix engineer.
@@EdThorneI’m sure you’ll end up in a better place by upgrading your monitoring. So this may be a little academic, but what I’m talking about is slightly different to just doing to automatic room calibration. With the DSP Neumann models, you can manually adjust the correction curve with an additional eq offset. So, if you are consistently perceiving it as mid forward even after room calibration, you can bring down the offending frequencies until it sounds right to you and include that in the calibration file stored by the speaker. Interestingly, there’s a sound on sound review where it’s mentioned that Neumann claim the reason they can sound mid forward to some people is psychoacoustic - they measure flat but have so much mid range detail and resolution due to the crossover design that the ear can perceive this as being boosted in those frequencies. It’s an interesting take. I guess aim to measure flat but allow the user to tune the voicing with the onboard DSP is a best of both worlds approach. Of course, Sonarworks also allows you to tweak the correction curve but I’m not a fan of plugin based speaker management in general because I like to reference music from apps outside of my DAW, and it all adds additional complexity to bouncing stuff down etc. Anyway, it sounds like you’ve already moved on to a solution that’s working better for you, I’m looking forward to watching the rest of your journey.
PS As a former engineer, I would recommend that you find a speaker and get to know it well. Rapport with a lower quality speaker leads to better mixes than you can get with higher quality speakers with which you have little rapport.
Same speakers, same room treatment, same hardware, same Sonorworks, SAME EVERYTHING! I’m in the EXACT SAME boat as you mate. I almost pulled the trigger on the Kh-310s and glad I didn’t after watching this. Focal or Barefoot is on my radar now. Cheers 👍🏻
What’s your budget for new? The HEDD Type20s have impressed for the money. I hated the Barefoots. I don’t have an opinion on the Focals, they’re decent.
@@EdThorne Around $5K, give or take. I switched over to my NS-10s for the time being since I’ve been using them since the early 2000s. I’ve had the Neumanns for around 3 years now.
I’ve got my Focal CMS 65 and I truly love them. I know there’s way better speakers out there but, I like the level of detail and they’re not aggressive, allowing me to work long hours if I have to.
@@EdThorne another great thing about my Focal is that my mixes translate very accurate to the real world, and I must confess, I’ve got no room treatment at all. Probably I’m used to it!!
I had Neumann KH120s for about 5 years and ended up having the same guesswork in mixing as you described. I upgraded to Amphion One15s that are just so much better at telling me where the problems are. I can hear the difference between compressor attack and release times so much clearer. After that I added Dirac live which took them to the next level.
Would u still recommend dirac live? I‘m thinking of getting two 18s to replace my kh120ii but my room isnt perfect why i love the ma1 sytsem. I used sonarworks before and never really liked it compared to the ma1. So I’m scared that if I use the two 18s with dirac live it wouldnt work as good as the ma1 sytsem
@Lukas-wx9gx ARC 4 Studio works really well with the Amphions but it doesn’t handle bad desk reflections well (anything above 5-6dB peaks). Trinnov makes Amphions sound awful! I haven’t tried MA1 with them.
@@Lukas-wx9gx I’ve never tried MA1 but Dirac is great. It’s comical how my One15s sound when Dirac is turned off. I have massive 200 hz issues due to my desk and some big peaks around 60hz due to room nodes. Dirac fixes them really well. Beyond that you can save different target curves to adjust the overall sound balance. For example I have a Harman curve with bass boost that I use for low level monitoring. And a different setting for when I listen loudly that doesn’t need the bass boosted. Definitely worth it..also of note is that you get two licenses, so I’m running my active Dynaudios in the lounge room with Dirac too. Win win.
Running Yamaha HS7s paired with HS8s sub. Kind of budget/mid alternative but works well. Doesn't sound too good tbh, which is what I like about em! Either way...looking forward seeing what you're working on now!
For my little home studio I chose Genelec SAM 8320A active monitors paired with SAM 7350A active subwoofer and I couldn’t be happier, although this setup would be insufficient for your needs. The GLM software is very slick, and the performance is very impressive given my budget. I’m looking forward to your critical review of the Genelecs, even if you choose to review the more appropriate The Ones series monitors.
I know the sound of the Genelecs from broadcast jobs and a couple of studios so I didn’t demo a pair for this investigation. They’re great speakers but I knew I wasn’t going to get them. It was nice to hear them again at GearFest though.
Love the journey Ed. I’ve found a lot of value in your review vids. I’m a guitarist/songwriter who found myself getting busy mixing other folks music. My journey has been one of steady improvement over the years, but still feel like I’m flirting with “professional” mixes. I definitely found my room was hurting me. Recently I’ve been mixing on headphones (see Andrew Scheps opinion on this). Thus far , it’s improved my mixes.
Thanks, Daniel. I’ve mixed one track on headphones and I can hear the flaws now. Personally, I’m a speaker guy. It’s totally about what works for you. I only just feel like I’ve accomplished a professional mix on the last few weeks.
Genelec 8300 series. I have the 8341 plus the the sub . I have a smalish room and they are the only speaker that worked in my room. And ive tried them all
I have been and am this similar journey as well. I use the Adam Audio 7XA and reference with the Neumann MD30 headphones and I ran into similar struggles in translations, but had to break things down to their basics. I ran REV to analyze my room, checked the frequency responses of my monitors, headphones and outside speakers that I use to check my mix and made diagrams for reference. So I am learning the strengths and weaknesses of my room and pieces of gear to mix accordingly. Also spectrum analyzers will detect what your monitors and or ears do not. As Warren says don't mix what what you can't hear. Every speaker will have its strengths, flaws and signature, but like you said there are Mixers that use NS10s that can make our work seem embarrassing. That is because they have the technical skillset and experience not necessarily the gear. Neumann does make great products, but it may be a case of those speakers just did not jive with your room. I am still in the beginning of this journey as well, so there is always something new that you learn through trial and error. It is also comforting to know that you are not alone in the struggles that we experience in this craft.
I had the exact same problem with a pair of 310s + two 750 subs. Scooped mids. Our mastering engineer always sent something back that sounded not right on the neumanns but great everywhere else.
Right now I have the Adam Audio A7X the previous generation. I really like them because I know them well and I know how my room, but I am looking for an upgrade to a 3 way monitor. This week I was looking to get the Barefoot Footprint 02 around 3k. So I’m still deciding before next week and now you will be reviewing a couple of them, it makes me curious. I’m not sure how long the video will be out. I am so ready to get them.
You should go with what your ears tell you but personally I’d avoid Barefoots like the plague. Way too much low-end, harsh and fizzy top-end, weak midrange. Focals any day at this price point.
If you can, see if your retailer will bring you a few different sets to try in your studio. There’s no point testing in a different listening environment (especially if their’s is acoustically optimised). SXPro Audio in the UK do this. I also recommend mixing on the speakers and not just listening to reference tracks. That helped me make my decision!
I’ve been in the room with some of the biggest mix engineers that still mix on NS10’s. Whatever you’re comfortable with. I use Slate VSX at the moment as my room is impossible to make sound good until I move to a new one.
The VSXs are VERY popular! No room is impossible but yeh, some are tricky. I thought mine was appalling to begin with but some placement changes made a big difference.
What a fantastic topic. My first mixes were done on Yamaha HS8's. My first mastering engineer picked up not only the brand of speakers but that I was also in an untreated room. Too much bottom end! I managed some room treatment, new monitors, Dynaudio BM15A's and also 2 sets of headphones, Sennheiser HD800S and the Neumann NDH30's. The difference was earth shattering. Sadly my monitors are boxed up and in the cupboard as I am dealing with noise restrictions but the headphones are working fine. Looking forward to seeing which way you went. PS I wish I had the options to review other brands like you, cheers Ma9Na
I actually rotate between the HD 800S, HD820 and the Neuman NDH30's. The 800S give a brilliant sound stage, space and air. I find them nice and nuetral especially getting into the nitty gritty of finishing and very non fatiguing. I do miss my Dynaudio's though@@EdThorne
Different speakers for different scenarios different rooms. I have genelec s30ch in the semi treated room for critical listening but I get ear fatigue from them after a few hours even at low volumes. Genelec 8010 for the office which are great for that room. Dynaudio bm15p with bryston 4b in the living room as I dont have enough rack space for them in the treated room. Adam t5v in the semi treated room to not piss off the neighbours in the late evenings.
Focal SM-9 use them in focus mode most of the day but check full range when I feel like it's time to get the low end working on both bigger systems as well. I have Dirac for both setups and that room correction made me do 3 things better. Optimized position of speakers, a bit of eq on the focals to make them fit the room better and a the room became magic. Translates perfect and I know due to measurements (and lots of refernces) the room is at it's best with this combination. So I can recommend focal and dirac for less optimal rooms.
I went the route of the Amphions - a lot of high profile mixers use them. A great producer/mixer and friend of mine got a pair and convinced me and my mixes really stepped up.
I'm very curious to hear/demo Amphion monitors. Have 14 pairs of speakers at home/studio now. Plus 5 subs. So I gotta chill... 😅 Latest purchase was some Yamaha NS-10's. Was surprised at how pleasant I find them.
Hello Ed! I’d like to share my opinion on this matter. I feel like any speaker that somewhat follows the fletcher munson curve with really good decay and response time of the driver(s) (alignment as well) is what anybody trying to get great mixes that translate, should be using..combined with good taste in music and a lot of common sense on the genre of music the engineer is working on keeping the target platform/audience in mind (this can be culture/area/medium of consumption etc.). Speakers I feel that may help with this are NS-10, CLA-10A, Amphion One 15, Small genelecs with SAM for time alignment, PMC 6, ProAc SM100, Auratones etc. I feel like the complete mix should be done on this kind of setup and then a secondary setup with sub/threeway/ added sub to this that can be toggled with a footswitch to check how the mix sounds in a full range system. (Doesn’t matter it can even be krk speakers + sub as the full range checking speakers if budget is issue). This kind of process in my opinion really makes the engineer, the missing link. After much experimentation this is my conclusion. Ignore this ID name, it’s my younger brother’s iPad youtube lol…Let me know what you think :D
I love my KH120’s… but I do find them a bit dark sometimes so overcompensate with the high end. I’ve also stopped trusting sonarworks and feel my mixes translate better when I don’t use it in the mix process! I have recently bought the NDH30 and found them quite interesting…
I know what you mean. It’s a compromise of 2-way speakers though, they’ll never extend in either direction as far as a 3-way. Sonarworks/SoundiD works well from an EQ perspective up to 3-4dB, max, then it does strange things. It also doesn’t get the phase alignment even close. The KH750 sub is a noticeable step up. Then Trinnov blows that out of the water again!
Assuming you have tried to move your listening location? In the experience I had was quite crucial. However, until December 22 my KRK RP8 were spot on for the room size I had. Now in the (smaller) new room I have I had to change for a smaller drive which is Kali Audio lp6 which better result. Still not there but is a good start and definitely better than the previous.
Yeh, I’ve tried numerous positions that space will allow and even had a professional acoustician in to advise and help position the desk/speakers, etc. short of re-building the room from the shell up (which I can’t because it’s not my studio) I think I’ve exhausted all options. That was a smart decision to downsize the driver for the smaller room👌
@@EdThorne You must be understandably exhausted indeed as those things they completely shake your brain. Hope you will find a valid solution. Yes smaller drive made the difference so far but need more treatment. Cheers from Leyton
I have worked as an intern in a studio which uses Quested speakers and I was always second guessing there when I was mixing there. I felt like I didn't quite hear the mid range and I felt like the speakers where kinda dark. At home I've got eve sc207 and I feel like they're great but my room is quite bad. so Now I am saving up to get some nice treatment going 👍
Have you measured your room for problems using REWs (or SoundiD)? There’s a lot you can do before treatment (position/speaker distances/equilateral triangle positioning, etc). Simple first reflection point treatment goes a long way too. Good luck!
I have the most random monitoring setup, but it works really good for me and I dont have acoustic treatment because I've moved from my home (about 2-3 months ago) to a room in the back of a house. I use Kali LP6 V1 (not the 2nd wave) as my "upper" monitors and a HS8 as sub (not the HS8S). I use iD14 as Audio Interface and I made a routing work to have this to work properly, not clashing frequencies. I don't have perfect monitors placement and I use ARC 3 from IK Multimedia as my calibration software. THE ONLY "Problem" I have is that I sometimes put a little too much of treble (like a hihat a little bit louder than it should be to others mixers I sent my mixes). Anyway, the sound has been pretty balanced, although my condictions are not perfect at the moment. I've never felt this way before, but I'm very happy with the sound I can get out of my system nowadays. Edit: Using the HS8 as a SUB with the ARC 3 calibration made the biggest difference for me. "It's all about that bass" lol
@@EdThorne I really hope that the change of audio monitors helps you in that journey! Have you ever considered change the DAC (converter)? A lot of people say it makes an enormous difference in the monitoring. I was struggling with the midranges like you said in the video when I was using a pair of HS8 as my main monitor. TOO MUCH MIDRANGE (for me) 🤣 In my opinion, you always have to listen to the new speakers in your room. Because it changes everything. I got lucky that my new room isn't (or at least I think it isn't) compromising my mixes that much. I've tried Sonarworks (not the SoundID), it was sounding kinda right/flat but It didn't feel natural to me and I couldn't get a mix that made me proud... that was the difference between Sonarworks and ARC 3 for me and it has helped a lot. Well, there's always someway/something to upgrade. I guess even Serban Ghenea has something he wants to upgrade in his monitoring system lol
Got a pair of ATC SCM25 MK2 earlier this year, (also use Kali Audio IN-8's, which i thing are fantastic.) The ATC's have cut my mix time down considerably. The detail in the mid range is incredible to my ears. I don't use sonar works anymore, just spent some time learning these speakers and everything translates.
The ATCs are awesome. And yeh, cut my mix time way down too. Then I heard the PSIs and they did it again! Then I started over working because they’re too revealing 🤣 A balance was found.
I worked at studio that had those once. Not saying they were bad speakers - they are a stellar hi-fi system in every way! - but totally and utterly useless for mixing. As a matter of fact, the engineer was using the Yamaha HS-10 for mixing basically 99.9% of the time. As soon as he started the subwoofer, I backed out the chair 2 or 3 meters to avoid some of the early subwoofer reflections, and the result wasn't bad, but the image of the speakers - which are basically bookself - was too tight to get the stereo right, so he told me to come in closer. When I did, it was obvious that the sub made all sort of weird reflections happen and I didn't like it as a mixing tool at all. It's a great feel to listen to music on any such high-end system, but he would literally NOT use it. I looked around the studio, and though about all the things that could be improved : a very old Mac Pro that desperately needed changing (2009...!!!! holyshit) and would crash at least once in a session, no thank you; a better organization system for the equipment was also desperately needed; a new desk was needed as well - one of the leg was barely working with a board on top! :O And instead they spent many thousands on this system which......... made them 0$. My advice as a sound engineer? Do not use a sub unless you are in a pro studio built from the ground up for it, with the proper distance and bass traps. Otherwise you're muddying your mix. As we sometimes say, "The sub is for clients only" .... can you really afford that??? I certainly can't!
The speakers might be the most important gear in the room. Always have a pair of Yamahas in the room, and a pair of lower middy speakers,genelec,focal,etc.
@@FredDeMassiveAlambic I would definitely keep the Yamahas for at least a little while until you get used to the Neumanns. From my understanding the Neumanns are very warm so you’re getting two very different sound signatures there. Keep to see if it’s beneficial,if you feel like it’s not then sell
I mix 80% on headphones, due to having to be quiet while mixing late at night. I tried the Harman EQ curve (that @PaulThird recommended) on my mix bus and my mixes immediately started translating better on my monitors and other playback systems.
We currently use 7 Kh310, 3 kh879 and 4 kh120.. we can’t use the DSP anyhow in that setup and the sonarworks is a ridiculous system that takes up an hour of our time per calibration.. Do yourself a favour explore Trinnov, even if you don’t do atmos like us. It’s a one pulse solution and we need it as we calibrate twice a day, turn on and after lunch.. Neumann are incredible, but you’re not paying ATC money, you won’t get ATC quality. Good video, for is we trust the room now so happy and that’s the secret - trusting your room;)
I own the kh120 and i think theyre perfect. I dont think i will switch monitors in a long time and i actually think them not being perfect is what makes them so good. Mixing with a reference and a spectrum analyzer has been the real game changer for me
I upgraded from Focal to ATCs and it was a night and day difference. I'm doing a mix in 2 hours now that sounds miles better than a mix that took me 5 hours a couple months ago. It definitely could be a monitoring issue you're dealing with. If mids are an issue, PMC and ATCs are absolutely the best midrange highlighting speakers I've heard.
I will also say, the KH120s are such a small speaker which means they'll be bottled up in the mids. Getting a bigger, 3 way speaker with a larger cabinet will definitely help open the midrange a little bit. The 310s and 420s sound drastically different than the 120s to me.
Neumanns are among the flattest production speakers on the market in both direct and estimated room average response. 99.99% sure it really is just your room. Also, room correction dsp programs are not honest in their “before” and “after” representations. Use REW to measure the “before” and “after” and you’ll see what I mean. All that said, if you found a pair of speakers that work better in YOUR room than the Neumanns, that’s fantastic! 👍😃
If you look at professional mixes made by Bob Cleamountain that sound great, they also look like being low in the mids in True Balance. So take that metering with a pinch of salt.
I had the KH120s which convinced me to get the KH310s... the 3 way makes a huge difference. I predict you've opted for the ATCs... are you keeping the Neumann 750? Honestly, that subwoofer changed everything for me.
All will be revealed soon (Or follow me on Insta for more immediate clues 😉). I’m keeping the sub for now to run my room correction but I have Trinnov on the way so may not need it but I like the low-end extension it provides.
Me? I just have to accept that I lack the skills, audible range detection and even arrangement acumen, so I have begun to ask others to help me mix and master. It is also a very revealing journey. The best news is learning where the weak spot is and dealing with it positively. I love where you are going with this. You know what? Sometimes it IS the equipment.
I refuse to accept a lack of skill I’m always driven to learn and achieve better. There are things that I accept I can’t/don’t want to do and delegate (eg. web design/mastering)
Try Eve Audio SC2070's without any room correction - they have a perfect balance right off the box. I have them and passive Auratones with a bettermaker amp - this combo is amazing. I mix first 20% on Eves, then I do all the balancing, compression, automation, effects and additional eq moves to shape the mid mids a bit better on Auratones and then I come back in the end to Eves to check the upper mid details and the bass listening with higher volume. In the end I do some quick AB with my references on Beyerdynamics DT880 Pro and last tiny 0.25-1.5dB moves to make it sound 100% on par with my references.
also it's a good idea to start a mix with a lower volume on your main full-range monitors to focus on the mids and a high mids more.The bass checks should be done listening very loud from my experience.
I think the styles you're mixing make a difference in what speakers to get. But ATC's translate extremely well in pretty much any genre. I have barefoot FP01's but I mainly produce and mix pop, rnb, afro, latin and house music. These sound fantastic for those genres but I probably would've chosen something different had I worked with rock/metal genres. Good luck on your journey!
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these monitors! I think bass extension with even full range representation and ease of translation is crucial. Also if you could articulate how each monitor would feel to produce music on that’d be helpful as well
I will but I have since realised I didn’t use any of these while tracking… which is a different story again to mixing on which is a different story to listening to playback.
You need to use stands. And you need to position them 7 - 8 feet each other, and 6 feet to you.. Try that. It is about shape of your head. I had that problem too, and then had tried another positioning. And problem 80% solved
I have a friend who spent quite a bit on trying to make his room right. He found out that there's a 200 htz node in his room that he can't take out even with insulation, reflectors, and eq. He even got advice from a company that got made his bass traps. After hearing about all the crap he went through and knowing I wouldn't be able to spend even half as much as he did. I'm going to go with some really nice head phones and a DAC
Headphones do eliminate room problems but your room may not be as problematic as your friend’s. Some small placement/height adjustments and first reflection treatments can go a long way. Also, no room is perfect. I’ve been in $Million studios in LA with problems… (albeit only small problems).
I'm rocking the Focal Shape 65 and think they are very detailed and I can generally trust them and I find that they share a lot of similar qualities to a hifi Focal headphones but I'm thinking about getting RME adi-2 to have parametric EQ for room correction and solid converters, because though I have fairly well treated room with almost flawless reverb times, I find I need to correct bit of the area around 100Hz and slight dip in the mid range, their top end is just clear and sweet 🙂 When can we expect the video comparison of studio monitors? Would like to see what you found! If I were to upgrade from these Focals it would probably have to be something like Kii Three 😉
I would tend to think that sonarworks calibration would have tremendously helped, esp. since it involves auditioning your room with the provided mic. If your room is so resonant at a specific frequency, maybe its treatment needs to be adapted. That being said, there are no "neutral" monitors, all have their color, and you should pick the color that feels the most natural to you, then spend hours listening to music on them, to teach your brain what "normal" music sound like in your room. Then you're ready to mix/master on your monitors, as your brain will make you target the new "normal"
Has Neumann for 8 years and reached same conclusiion as you 2 years ago. One of my main set of monitors today is the krk s4 v4 with a sub and my mixes are far more accurate and crisp smh... The whooly sound of Neumann i agree. I used to swear by them but not anymore. I had the nd30 headphones too and sold it as well, very hard to balance highs and mids on those to my ears
@@EdThornei could mix better on a pair of sennheiser jubilee 58x than on the ndh30 and it is not because i was used to them as too me no headfones are perfect. The neumann ndh30 was making all sound good and it is nearly impossible to get the high mids correct.
Yep, monitoring is crucial. And it is very common thing when certain speakers work well for some people in certain environments, and for some people don't. Have seen it so many times with other people. Would be fun to see what you ended up with!
I am not in a pro studio but am full time working in audio since March this year. I am just about to upgrade from Adam F7 (which I had for the last 8 years) to the Adam A7Vs as I did notice that the F7 have been holding me back in the recent months. I can go to the 8s due to my room being smaller and I need front facing sub ports as the speakers are right up to the wall. I also use Sonarworks and I have to say it's a good tool but it's not fixing major issues. I now mostly use it to reference the mix and the midrange once the mix is almost done, mixing through Sonarworks has cause me ear fatigue like crazy.
Did you see Warren Huarts interview with Steve Klein about speaker placement ? That guy is legit and it helped me. The way he explains it is very matter of fact LOL. I also use Neumann KH120s and they are great compared to my DynaAudio or KRKs. Hope this helps !
I use the KH80s with the KH750 sub and they do well, but the most accurate playback I have is through the NDH 30 headphones. The interface matters, too. I have found a pretty big difference in DACs and the Metric Halo ULN-8 3D Mk IVs work really well for me.
The 80s are Neumann’s best speaker in my opinion. And I still use the 750 with its room correction. Yeh, I’ve learned how huge conversion is. I can’t improve on my X16 atm.
@@jianhuang0124 It does but that makes it hard to control the level without losing bits. Also, the MH ULN-8 3d Mk IV converters sound a lot better, even with the extra conversion.
@@edwinhurwitz6792 unfortunately even you have a 10 thousand dollar DAC, kh 750 will still do the AD and DA conversion internally. Basically you cannot bypass the DAC
@@jianhuang0124 I completely understand that. What you also can't get around is that if you attenuate the signal digitally when you connect digitally to the KH750 and attenuate the volume so it doesn't take your head off, you are losing the 24 bit signal and it becomes a lower bit depth. Having tried both, I prefer sending an analog signal to the KH750. If they had created a way to control the level from the speaker array, then it would probably sound better, but they did not. I don't like losing resolution. YMMV.
Yamaha HS5's work better here than KH120 A's - I'm using Kali IN 5's now, but may go back to the HS5's - though Genelec 8040 might be worth a try - Focal Solo 6 another choice, but sound too good, so might not really help! Neumann KH-120 A's are overly damped and warm for this room - I check my mixes on Focal Clear MG cans, a big help as they are detailed high and low, I also use Avantone Mixcubes. If I was to go up to the next level price-wise, I would love to try the PSI Audio Active 17M Studio pair - most accurate, they say - but could be overkill in here, very small semi-treated room - still, maybe one day, get a used pair ;-) The Kali's are very listenable, like having a sub in the speaker (3 way dual concentric) and probably better in here than the KH120 pair, but the tops are not really forward enough for mastering I don't think - still keeping them and listening on the Focal Clear cans to check the highs is not too much bother - I can tell a lot about the mix with the Kali's, may be I'll get used to them in time
You've built nice little resonators to put them boxes on. I can bet that raised surface hums along somewhere in the range you described, unless you get the monitors off your desk you won't get that range right. Maybe some speakers will be less sensitive to boundary resonance and interference (coaxial Designs or non-ported boxes), but that doesn't mean there isn't still a problem there.
I realized just how important speaker sound was a couple months ago. I've been over to my friend's studio a couple times to film some content with him and his speakers are much more dull than my speakers. To the point I usually can't hear small details on them when we film mic shootouts. He has just now noticed that the dullness of his speakers are affecting his mixes as well and he is looking to upgrade. Hard to get the results you want when you can't fully hear what you are doing!
What’s he got over there? My first mix out of my new speakers was dull because I wasn’t used to having such spacious top end🤣 Have corrected this quickly though.
Im using a pair of cheap m-audio bx8 d3's with sonarworks on the master chain , my problem is around 2k , my mixes are scooped around that range , and by scooped i mean 4-3db scoop , sometimes even worse , i never had the same problem with the smaller bx5's , i have a pair of T7Vs as my 2nd pair to help a/b between my mains , i think the problem could be the distance between me & my monitors , so ill be getting smaller Neumann Kh 80s to help with that , lol yes neumanns
The KH80s are the best speaker Neumann make imo. Your 2k dip is probably where the cross over is and they haven’t compensated for it with DSP. Generally the case with cheaper speakers.
That makes perfect sense since they crossover at 1.9khz , tried to fix that with sonarworks but my mixes still aren't translating , KH 80s it is then , thanks Ed 👊🏽
I had a low mid issue with the Neumann too. I also couldn't hear small EQ and Compession changes.. I was over compressing as a result.. Upgraded to Amphion one15s. Not the best sounding for general listening but they make issues in a mix undeniable and they translate. I can finally pass the car test. What did you end up choosing?
Hi I'm a new sub. I have the KH 80's and they have been my journey into higher end monitors/audio. I am considering an upgrade similar to yours so it will be interesting to see what you discover in the next few vids with testing other monitors.
Speakers like the HS’s and Adam TV series are fantastic for the money but I find they lack any depth of sound and sound flat. What might you upgrade to?
@@EdThorne I was talking to an associate from Sweetwater and He'd recommend the Kali IN-8 or the new line of Focal Alpha's. I'm going to do some research.
I feel your pain! I had some ATC45a's in a really small room (a single garage) I couldn't get a coherent sound from the 3 woofers because I was so close to them and, like you, my mixes were coming out mid range light. Gutted because they are an amazing set of monitors! I guessed I needed something coaxial with a potential closer listening position so went with the Ex Machina, Pulsars which are magnificent. My mixes improved but I still have an annoying 90hz null in a well treated room lol. The struggle continues! I'd love to try Dutch and Dutch 8cs or Kii Threes just to see if they live up to the hype of eliminating so much of the room. Cheers- looking forward to finding out what you ended up with :-)
Yeh, I’d say the 45s are mid-range speakers, probably too big for a single garage. Beautiful speakers though! The Ex-Machina’s are absolutely incredible! Maybe Trinnov could fix/manage your 90Hz null?
I also have the KH120’s and I have a feeling I’m experiencing the same issue. As a result I’m looking around at other monitoring options. Unfortunately the MUM’s, PSI, ATC and PMC’s are well out of my budget. However, I’m considering the Focal Solo6 ST6’s. Did you get to hear those at Gearfest? If you did, what were your thoughts on those vs the KH120’s?
I’ve heard the same complaint from many people. I haven’t heard the Solo ST6s. They may have been in their Atmos room at GearFest but I didn’t pay close enough attention to accurately comment, sorry.
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🌟 I should have prefaced this video by stating I have worked with a professional acoustician to optimise both my room and the speaker placement, and I still have the same issue. Due to space limitations I can’t have the speakers mounted on stands behind the desk, and yes, I have tried isolation pucks. I’m also not saying the Neumann’s are bad speakers, they just don’t work for me in my studio. Peace.
A few thoughts and lets go backwards:
If the mix lacks mids, then the mids are too loud in the room.
Neumanns have incredibly good horizontal dispersion. That means they sound great in untreated rooms, too - but:
If you dampen the room according to measurements with speakers with a less perfect sound and mid range scoop, then according to measurements the room will show much more midrange and you may conclude it needs midrange dampening.
But if you do that, the room will suck out the mids from the incredibly flat dispersion of Neumanns.
Or vice versa: measuring a room with speakers that scoop the lows ad/or highs with their horizontal reflections.
Solution: Just remove all the dampening - you will have a higher RT60, but probably a much better sound with the Neumanns. And THEN measure the untreated room with the Neumanns with REW and decide what the room really needs.
@@PeterC-kc1ne Yes!! This is *exactly* what I experienced with my KH120s.
I used KH120 for 10 years and never had an issue with the mids, But I am in a properly designed room with sub. Now on the KH310s with sub (KH120 ins the 5.1). The 310s have better transients and much easier to EQ with. Not sonar or room corrections The room design is everything!
Yes! Proper acoustics beats Sonarworks.
Yeh, like I said in the video, for me the problem was the combination of the two (room and speakers). My new speakers (to be revealed) don’t have the same problem.
This is true. Most people have compromised rooms though. SoundiD can help get you in the ball park but the phase correction/time alignment is nowhere near the Neumann DSP and a complete failure compared to Trinnov.
Neumann kh120ii + Kh750 sub + MA-1 = never heard music as clearly in my life, and Ive been in many pro studios. And Im listening in an untreated, odd shaped room… Thank you Neumann, I now have a fighting chance!
With the MK2s it can be that they sound better now, but with the old ones and KH 750 DSP + MA1 I was a bit disappointed.
Hey! I just bought a pair of Neumann kh310s to replace my Yamaha HS7. I love the kh310 the sound is incredible. However I’ve seen a lot of info about adding a sub to really make them special. Would you recommend this???
@@ARCASIAUKI think for the 310s you don’t need to add a sub, it depends to the musical genre you’re working on.
But the frequency of the 310s should go deep enough to get a good mix out of them.
The Sub is more for room correction in my opinion. :-)
Or you get the IK Multimedia ARC Studio for frequency control and room correction.
@@maxzandermusic Thanks for your suggestion. I might get the sub just for the DSP capability as my room is not the best for treatment. I’m sure this would enhance the 310s in some way!
KH310s here. Have never had any problem with them. Treated room, Sound ID, etc. Got used to them, know how they sound, love them. Focal Alpha Evo have also been amazing ngl
If they work for you in your room, amazing!🔥🤘
@Ed Thorne Music Production
1. Get rid of your high-back chair.
2. Get rid of your large Reflective Display Monitor smack dab between your monitors (or at least TRY draping a large goose down comforter over the front and back of the display as an A/B)
3. Do you have a Floating Cloud Absorber/Diffusor over your desk close to the front wall and extending out past your mix position?
4. Try bringing the Monitors out to the Front Edge of your Desk.
This would apply to ANY monitors that you are using.
Apparently you have already made your final decision for the monitors, and I haven't watched any of your newer videos, but I would have advised you to also have tried the Dutch & Dutch 8C. I might suggest the Kii THREE as well, but I think the 8C might even be pushing it in regards to the size for your current space.
If you ended up with the PDP MUM8, good on you.
Kh310 + Kh750dsp in a fully treated room = dream combination
Are you using the MA1 room correction too?
@@EdThorne yes i do !
I'm ashamed to say I've been mixing on a pair of JBL LSR305's for about 6 years now. I got them for free, brand new, from Guitar Center due to a refund error they had made, and I suppose I just "forgot" to let them know (I've still forgotten to tell them to this day actually). I'm very happy with my current mixes and I've gotten to the point now where I don't even need to check them in the car anymore, I know they'll be at least 95% there. I think it's because I have just changed my outlook now and focus more on songwriting, arrangement and performance in particular, and the mixes tends to "fall into place" now. In the past it was very easy for me to confuse a bad song with a bad mix, but my philosophy now is that if you have a half decent room, with half decent speakers and a half decent setup, and you go and check your mix in the car, on headphones, with airpods etc, and it COMPLETELY falls apart on you... it's probably not entirely the speakers fault, it could be that you're too focused on the minor details rather than looking at the big picture.
I had a very different experience. i got the 120's, after a few months, my mix decisions were way faster and translated much better, remixes were no longer required for translation purposes. I was so pleased I moved to the 310's. I find them even more precise. The Neumanns to my ears are for more precise than the 100's of speakers gone through my hands. My 2nd monitors at this time are a pair of 10" Tannoy coaxial. Also, I never use DSP room correction in my signal path.
Neumann’s seem to work beautifully for some people and not for others. That’s great they work for you. For me it’s Amphions all day. They’re my speaker for life.
I'm just an diy speaker/audio/music hobbyist and diy a quad tower speaker system that's very revealing. I used soft domes from visaton for tweeter 20mm, and midrange 50mm. For woofer I used the glassfiber gf200. Diyed a crossover with good quality components. I did some room treatment with rockwool as well with a surface of 4x1.2x2.4m. What really helped me figuring things out was having a good reference ie a measuring mike. not sure you've got one, just watched your two most recent videos but didn't hear you mention it. I like the umik1 mike with room eq wizard or REW for short for sweeps of my room from the listening position and the diy speakers at around 1m. Doing this allows you to see what the speakers put out and how the room responds to it without much guesswork, though there are a lot of caveats though.
I've also been on a journey how music should sound like and also how speakers should actually sound like, how much detail am I missing? Things like target room response came up and my speakers and room are pretty close to that and it sounds great!
You talk a lot about reverb tails. I use my speakers in quad stereo config with a surround sound receiver to get the time of arrival correct. Like how the guys talked about being surrounded in the music with dolby atmos, it's very impressive to behold, even with just 4 speakers!
Quad speakers for mixing is likely not useful, but it does let you hear the stereo image more pronounced and you'd be able to spot problems a lot easier. On my receiver I can easily switch to stereo which sounds better for some music styles.
Really looking forward to your discoveries!
DAC DAC DAC!!! upgrading to a High Quality Mastering grade DAC was the game changer in how and what I was hearing out of my monitors. Adam S3H and PMC Result 6s
I’m using the X16 for now. Numerous retailers have suggested I upgrade but one thing at a time. My new speakers were expensive 🤣
tbh I felt like my speakers were not giving me what I wanted...BUT then I added two subs and it just worked and price was ok added two Genelec 7360 subs to my 8340s and sold my 8341 and 8350s, with SAM I found that splitting everything in my smallish room just worked so I would suggest to most people try adding a sub to your system for a trial.
KH120 user here of 5 yrs. I found the same thing, they are very low mid forward. I've found that going into the eq switches on the back and taking out some low mids and adding the 1db treble boost has turned them into really balanced little monitors that are like microscopes for audio. I also found that getting them as close to me as possible also made a big difference! Definitely temped by the Barefoot Footprint 03s though as an upgrade!
That's great! Definitely try the Barefoots before you try them. I hated them! Amphions and PSIs all the way for me now.
I went from Dynaudio DBM50s to Adam A7vs and noticed a much faster mixing time. They also allowed me to mix brighter without fatiguing my ears. Then I added a KRK 10" sub and have found the low end to be much better translating, especially when making more electronic music. It almost made no difference with my rock mixing. One of the reasons I changed, was because of my small space, needing front ported instead of rear.
i would def switch out your krk sub if its the 10S. the polk audio psw10 is far better. i made this switch on my adams set up and it made a huge difference. cheaper sub too. got this from @asherpostman here on youtube.
Every speaker has a sound and everyone's ears receive frequencies differently, period. It's definitely an important journey to find what works *for your own ears* rather than what an analyzer or some gear reviewer tells you.
Exactly this!
you said it all , and same for audio interface and why i do not follow dudes like Krause, specs are one thing but how you can work with something in the real context of a studio and get excellent results compared to other devices is much more important
Just test the presonus scepters and be happy. I use them as my close range speakers. And have some eq curves to test translations. I never ever have a translation issue.
I think it’s worth noting that, while corrective eq solutions like SoundID can work wonders, they are generally going to be less effective at correcting for underreporting caused by phase cancellation at your listening position than correcting for build ups or resonances. It’s really an uphill battle correcting for that. My solution was to try to place my monitors where their response was as flat as I could get pre-treatment, specifically trying to find a spot without too many big deficits, then use acoustic treatment to try and combat the more overt resonances, with SoundID further refining things at the end.
Obviously all monitors have a certain sound to them and if they don’t work for you that’s totally understandable, but it can be very worthwhile to experiment with placement just to see if you can negate the negative influences of the room that can’t be as easily corrected with eq and then go from there.
Cheers!
Yeh, I’ve had a professional acoustician in to try and get the best response in the room naturally. I agree about SoundiD, it is limited. The Neumann DSP fares better but Trinnov destroys them both. I have a Nova on the way. 🤘
I have built a garden mixing room and treated it well. I have a pair of Kali IN-5's strapped to a Kali WS 6.2 subwoofer which only cost me about £1600! This gives me a superb 4-way system with a great detailed sound, stereo subs in a single speaker and so far my music has translated really well. 😎
Nice. How did the build go? Any planning permission issues? I’m considering building a place in the future (UK).
Hi, thank you for the video! Just some thoughts from me, haven't had any experience with Neumann monitors but I kind of went through a similar thing with mine years ago. I didn't change them. I worked very carefully with references, not many, three in particular, I lstened a lot of music casually on them not only when I was working and I learned this way to critically listen outside of the room. Whenever I hear about the "sweet" spot and room correction and all of these things, I feel a little embarrassed to think that I use the whole of the house as a listening space. Certain frequencies build up in certain spots outside my mixing room and it's only natural due to the physics of the bass frequencies that travel way further back. I now love my monitors and wouldn't change them for anything but I'm also confident that I can mix a great result through everything as long as I have my three referencies and some time to climatize to a new enviroment. If you haven't done this before, next time you mix leave your door open and go about your house doing everyday chores. Maybe you'd be surprised at what you learn. Cheers!
SAAAAMEEE - also had the Neuman KH120. They are great speakers but tend to make things better sounding. Had the same issue with the mix AND they give sounds more attack than they actually have so e.g. a Kickdrum that doesnt sound that good on other systems sounds good on the Neumanns. Neumann KH120 has also a veeery small listening spot and when you move (like sinking down in your chair as you get tired) the whole EQ curve changes drastically. So the next day the mix sounds way different. Got the Genelec 8351B and it was an amazing choice - all issues I explained before are gone. Very happy now.
Have a pair of Yamaha HS7's and I couple those with Genelec 8030C's,feel I get all the information I need with both of those! Good duo!
Acoustic Treatment, Converters, and Monitors are the main Things, but as you said about your room, it is a matter of being use to hear there. I also suggest gearing up from the UAD converters to the Lynx Audio Aurora n (which I did 4 months ago) and you can hear the difference in the mids, the round lows, and the depth and stereo image.
Numerous people have made this suggestion. I’ve blown all my budget on the new speakers though (and Trinnov) 🤣
@@EdThorne ok let's wait for this!!!
Hi Ed, great video! I am using the KH80’s which I aligned using the MA1 mic and software and that produced a noticeable improvement. But another improvement was found, following upgrading my Audio interface! I hadn’t realised how big a difference converters actually made. It was always something I would hear said, but I honestly did not take it as seriously as I should have. Now I hear things from KH80’s that I previously didn’t and the improvement is pretty big, so I think that is a huge part of the puzzle in my humble opinion. Next move is the Kh750👍🏾😄
What did you upgrade from and to? I’m using an X16 atm which was an improvement in my X6.
@@EdThorne was using the Apollo twin duo (mk1) but had the Apollo twin x. However, decided not to keep it despite good improvement.! Other RME users recommended (engineers/friends whom opinions i trust ) Have pointed me towards the RME ADI-2 pro fS (black edition) or UCX range for even better converters! So this is the route I plan to take. Have you tested the RME stuff?
@riasure I’ve never used the RME stuff, no. I should probably do a comparison with the Apollo at some point but may as well wait for new models now as they’ve both been out so long.
@@EdThorne yes I agree re. how long the UA Apollo twin x in particular has been out….2019😱. That’s a very long time in terms of technology advancement and also a reason I decided to return mine. Although your mate Paul Third is familiar with the RME stuff! Just so you know RME have a new audio interface Fireface UFX IIII which was released this year 2023! I have heard amazing stuff about it!! I would really like you to do a comparison. That would make for some very interesting content😄.
@riasure I have a contact at RME’a UK distributor now so this could be on the cards.
I have the 310A, 120 ii & KH80. All are ruler flat. The KH120 version 1 was always a weak link, the version 2 is totally re designed and much better in every aspect.
Still using a pair of Mackie HRs here that I bought second hand about 15 years ago. They probably have some serious response issues, but I know how they sound, no need for a sub, and my room is treated well. If I lose sight I just bring up a reference to re-calibrate my ears. Works for me.
Hey, I'm confused, when you listened to the Neumann speakers on Gearfest, you noticed the mid-range signature but your room bumps mid-range, too. So I thought you were going to say you'd improve your room's acoustics, but then you talked about the other speakers. Did you not like the Neumann's when you heard them propperly on Gearfest or why are you opting for new speakers rather than changing your room's acoustics? cheers!
I have done all I can over the last two years to improve the room acoustics but there is still a large mid-range build up. The low mid “presence” or “forwardness” of the Neumann’s is something I identified at GearFest on the whole speaker range and realised it was the brand’s sonic signature that I don’t like. This is compounded by the problems in my room so I decided I need a different speaker as I can’t move/change studios.
@@EdThorne How close are your speakers to the side walls and front wall? Which combinations have you tried?
IMO even his voice on this video does not sound good. Who is making a public video bashing the Neumanns, instead of showing room EQ analysis measurement by REW? Sonarworks is NOT adequate for room analysis!
@@EdThornehave you considered that the problem might be your ears? I’ve work in live music situations for 2 decades and my ears have become more sensitive to mids. I first started noticing it while using my phone. Phone calls sound more harsh and sometimes, shortly after work (live music), phone calls would hurt my ears.
I also have the Neumann KH 120 A with one
Adam Audio Sub 8
and they make a good team... But I also mix with beyerdynamic DT 150 headphones... I just think you just have to listen to a lot of references to know your own tool's strengths and weaknesses. You don't have the perfect room or the perfect tool... God bless
I’m using Yamaha HS8 for mids
And genelec
And I’m happy with it
I have the Neumann headphones it’s so flat but I don’t mix with it 😊
I just replaced my KH120As with PSI A25-Ms. Still using the KH750DSP for room correction and bass extension. That combination is the BEST sound I've heard! The setup I have now is definitely going to up my mixing and mastering game. Now to move into the professional domain, because I've been mixing and mastering pro bono for years. I want to make it a job now I have enough experience and I'm much more consistent.
Excellent. Sounds like we’ve had similar journeys!🔥
@@EdThorne Aye! It's funny how we both started with KH120s then moved to PSIs. I was actually looking on eBay for the past few years for "dream monitors", ranging from things like KH310s, Eve Audio, HEDD, Adam, etc. But the A25-Ms randomly showed up for just over £3k as I was about to buy a car with my "new car fund". Best purchase ever! Now I'll be cycling everywhere for the next few months. Priorities! 😂
Until what frequency does you kh750 work and corrects the room? I‘m thinking of upgrading my kh120ii but i have a 10db peak at 140hz which the ma1 system corrects wonderfully and i dont wanna miss that. So i‘m thinking of getting a kh750 to correct the peak again with the ma1 system
@Lukas-wx9gx MA1 corrects the whole room/frequency range across all speakers.
@@EdThorne but does it work well with amphions? Since its desinged for neumann speakers
A friend of mine that do mastering for a living, got a pair of Dutch & Dutch 8C, since then he told me his work is much accurate than ever. And I can feel it on mixes I send him. It got more accurate than before. The way he analyses music is much better.
It's very expensive speakers (12k€), but has internal dsp correction and stuff. Maybe worth to give a listen if you have a place to.
Dave Pensado is currently using D&D8s. I’ve heard they’re pretty special. The £9/10k mark is fiercely competition and very subjective. I haven’t heard these but the similarly priced Ex Machina’s blew me
Away!
Focals Shape Twins are my monitors and are just the best under 2k imo!
These and the Adam A7Xs are very tasty!
This is why I went with the kh150 + sub. The KH150 were a little more in the low mid to my ears. But I do use the Neumann MA1 to calibrate them now.
I am not doing a lot of music production but for broadcast, it translated really well. Genelecs are usually the name of the game in broadcast but my mixes always translated better on the KH150's on both the worst to the best TV setups compared to my mixes on the Genelecs.
Might also be worth it to check filtering (on the speakers themselves) and changing your crossover point before investing in new speakers for those who have issues with their speakers.
I dipped mine a bit on the low end.
KH310 & KH750 combo + ME-1 calibration system is absolutely sick. If anyone can't push out a stellar mix on those, they don't know what they're doing. PERIOD. I am more than glad that Neumann is not overhyped brand and so the prices are more affordable than ATC and other "hype" stuff...
The only problem I have with this combo is that I can CLEARLY hear all that unnecessary loudness war distortion, compression, clipping & brick wall limiting. Go figure...
Went on my own 2 year journey about 6 years back. I don't have a true pro audio shop here in town so the Neumanns were front runners for me, along with a hi-fi speaker or 2. Finally, I decided to hop a train and go to a real shop with a demo room. I got to AB the Neumanns with PSIs, Genelecs, ATCs, and a few other top names. In the end it was night and day for me, I chose a pair of PSIs. And it was the natural mid range clarity that sold me. Still working long hours on those speakers and they were probably the best investment that I have made on my mixing journey. Best of luck with yours my man
PSIs and Ex Machina’s are in another league! Incredible speakers. ATCs are also lush. Genelecs are a bit clinical for me. Neumann’s are no where near the quality.
@@EdThorne solid solid list right there. It was the frequency response of the PSIs that sold me but their timing accuracy that has really been the deal changer for me. Compression times are so much easier to judge without the time domain smearing caused by lesser speakers. Enjoy the new audio world that you have just opened for yourself
late to the party but what these speakers offer is great imaging and vocal clarity that others just do not, the kh120s have stellar mid range, but if it's too much for you - you can bump up the bass switch in the back all the way up, cut the mids all the way down and the treble one step above flat for a scooped sound + add a switchable sub and a extra scooped sounding monitor pair if you like but keeping the kh120s is a no brainer for me!
I'm a speaker guy too, I can't mix on headphones, I need some air between the generator and my ears :) I know what you're talking about, I've got similar journey with speakers. I demoed many of them in my studio: Ex Machina, Barefoot, APS, Genelec and more. I always felt not self confident enough with all these tools. Until I discovered Amphion, One15 especially. In my opinion One15 with Sub is one of the best mixing setups not only within its price range. It's all about its cohesion in the midrange. Amphion are always showing you the midrange as a monolith structure and they teach you as a personal sound assistant, advisor how to keep this monolith alive, how to polish it, make it even better. It's a magic expierence for me but I know I'm not alone. Give the Amphions a shot, you will be suprised! Best!
This is one of the few brands I haven’t heard or demo’d in this process actually (Kii’s and D&D8s being the others).
@@EdThorne Kii and 8c are imo in the group of transparent speakers, that can show you an issue/not an issue aspect in many subtle shades of gray in superb resolution. Amphions for better or worse can't show you those sound gradients, they will exaggerate issues, make it more black or white. The tick and thigh cohesion in the midrange helps you indicate the issues, you can react so easily, park things right then move to the next thing, bam bam and suddenly the mix is banging. They do have a sound and you learn how to work against this sound, but you do it very fast and effective. I can't work that fast on cardioid speakers like Kii or D8c, there are to many sound details to compute and each detail may distract you from the purpose. I prefer obvious decision making! But I'm aware why those cardioids are so hyped. They're excellent, but not every one is talented enough to make an advantage by using them!
I went through this as well... I had been mixing on a 17 year old pair of $1500 Adam A7s and nothing was translating. I spend 6 hours at a local Vintage King listening to a TON of monitors.... PMC, Genelec, Focal, HEDD, Adam S-series, ATC...
So I ended up with ATC SCM25A-Pro Mk IIs... and what a difference. I really wanted the SCM45As but they wont fit in my room. But the 25s are a godsend.
They’re incredible speakers!
Love my Genelec 1029's with a Tannoy subwoofer. Get great mixes, used them for over 25 years now.
Good stuff. 25yrs in the same room?
I am guy that records my own music as well as small projects for other mixing on a pair of control 10s made by JBL that use the same 3 way drivers found in the 4412 which I found for a very good price apparently unused save for a single small conference. I have been able to learn little about the history of these speakers but they absolutely transformed my results where translation and really in all categories are measured. Best money I ever spent on any component. Maybe because I worked at a studio using 4412s in the 1990s is a part of why I get such confidence when making those changes In mixing that often I would agonize over before? I am interested to see this series as a speaker guy.
Im sure is more about the room, when i was in my old room my NS10 sounds amazing, never have problems with the translation, recently moved to another place and they no translate as good as before.
Acoustic treatment is expensive and make a massive difference,if the space is small you cant do to much.
So my solution was VSX, rarely have problems with the translation since i have it, Low end is the most perfect i heard in any monitoring system.
Since you reference in all rooms, if sound good on all, you're good.
Great video btw! 😁
Thanks, Fernando. Yeh, my room isn’t perfect, but it’s also not the worst. I’ve optimised it as well as I can and the Neumann room correction DSP picks up the slack. Trinnov is on the way too🤘
@@EdThorne dont worry any room is perfect, just take time to developed your ears to the place, with headphones you get out the room of the equation, maybe can you used to check the mids only!
My guess is you should give yourself some more time to "unlearn" how you used to mix, in your old room. Listen to lots of references, and be sure you've nailed the speaker placement 100%
@@Tazmanian_Ninja yeah, but im 1rst room was more easy i must say, even 1 year hear can mix as good as the other room, so room is important
You can tweak the target eq curve on the KH80 DSP as part of the calibration process. Sounds like scooping a bit of the offending frequency range may get things sounding better in your room. That said, a bigger, full range system is always going to be a good investment for a mix engineer.
I had the analog 120s. Even room correction didn’t solve what I didn’t like about the speakers. I hear the same thing on the 150s, 310s and 420s.
@@EdThorneI’m sure you’ll end up in a better place by upgrading your monitoring. So this may be a little academic, but what I’m talking about is slightly different to just doing to automatic room calibration. With the DSP Neumann models, you can manually adjust the correction curve with an additional eq offset. So, if you are consistently perceiving it as mid forward even after room calibration, you can bring down the offending frequencies until it sounds right to you and include that in the calibration file stored by the speaker.
Interestingly, there’s a sound on sound review where it’s mentioned that Neumann claim the reason they can sound mid forward to some people is psychoacoustic - they measure flat but have so much mid range detail and resolution due to the crossover design that the ear can perceive this as being boosted in those frequencies. It’s an interesting take. I guess aim to measure flat but allow the user to tune the voicing with the onboard DSP is a best of both worlds approach.
Of course, Sonarworks also allows you to tweak the correction curve but I’m not a fan of plugin based speaker management in general because I like to reference music from apps outside of my DAW, and it all adds additional complexity to bouncing stuff down etc.
Anyway, it sounds like you’ve already moved on to a solution that’s working better for you, I’m looking forward to watching the rest of your journey.
Interesting to hear your thoughts. Best of luck with your new business! Hope it is going well!
PS As a former engineer, I would recommend that you find a speaker and get to know it well. Rapport with a lower quality speaker leads to better mixes than you can get with higher quality speakers with which you have little rapport.
Same speakers, same room treatment, same hardware, same Sonorworks, SAME EVERYTHING! I’m in the EXACT SAME boat as you mate. I almost pulled the trigger on the Kh-310s and glad I didn’t after watching this. Focal or Barefoot is on my radar now. Cheers 👍🏻
What’s your budget for new? The HEDD Type20s have impressed for the money. I hated the Barefoots. I don’t have an opinion on the Focals, they’re decent.
@@EdThorne Around $5K, give or take. I switched over to my NS-10s for the time being since I’ve been using them since the early 2000s. I’ve had the Neumanns for around 3 years now.
Unfortunately, once you’re at that £3/4k price point, the next noticeable upgrade is at the £9/10k point.
@@EdThorne I’ll check out the Type 20s. Leaning more toward the Focals ST6s. Thanks again! 👍🏻
I’ve got my Focal CMS 65 and I truly love them. I know there’s way better speakers out there but, I like the level of detail and they’re not aggressive, allowing me to work long hours if I have to.
This is important. Some speakers I’ve tested were fatiguing, even at low volumes, that’s no way to work.
@@EdThorne another great thing about my Focal is that my mixes translate very accurate to the real world, and I must confess, I’ve got no room treatment at all. Probably I’m used to it!!
I had Neumann KH120s for about 5 years and ended up having the same guesswork in mixing as you described.
I upgraded to Amphion One15s that are just so much better at telling me where the problems are. I can hear the difference between compressor attack and release times so much clearer.
After that I added Dirac live which took them to the next level.
Amphions are great speakers. Probably the best average of all the speakers I’ve heard.
Would u still recommend dirac live? I‘m thinking of getting two 18s to replace my kh120ii but my room isnt perfect why i love the ma1 sytsem. I used sonarworks before and never really liked it compared to the ma1. So I’m scared that if I use the two 18s with dirac live it wouldnt work as good as the ma1 sytsem
@Lukas-wx9gx ARC 4 Studio works really well with the Amphions but it doesn’t handle bad desk reflections well (anything above 5-6dB peaks). Trinnov makes Amphions sound awful! I haven’t tried MA1 with them.
@@EdThorne trinnov would be a dream but its too expensive for me right now
@@Lukas-wx9gx I’ve never tried MA1 but Dirac is great. It’s comical how my One15s sound when Dirac is turned off. I have massive 200 hz issues due to my desk and some big peaks around 60hz due to room nodes. Dirac fixes them really well. Beyond that you can save different target curves to adjust the overall sound balance. For example I have a Harman curve with bass boost that I use for low level monitoring. And a different setting for when I listen loudly that doesn’t need the bass boosted. Definitely worth it..also of note is that you get two licenses, so I’m running my active Dynaudios in the lounge room with Dirac too. Win win.
Running Yamaha HS7s paired with HS8s sub. Kind of budget/mid alternative but works well. Doesn't sound too good tbh, which is what I like about em! Either way...looking forward seeing what you're working on now!
So basically you’re saying they’re very good for studio monitors because of the flat response? vs than just listening to music
@@Mope333 In short, yes. Don't get me wrong, music sounds good on them, but there are more "pleasing" alternatives.
For my little home studio I chose Genelec SAM 8320A active monitors paired with SAM 7350A active subwoofer and I couldn’t be happier, although this setup would be insufficient for your needs. The GLM software is very slick, and the performance is very impressive given my budget. I’m looking forward to your critical review of the Genelecs, even if you choose to review the more appropriate The Ones series monitors.
I know the sound of the Genelecs from broadcast jobs and a couple of studios so I didn’t demo a pair for this investigation. They’re great speakers but I knew I wasn’t going to get them. It was nice to hear them again at GearFest though.
Love the journey Ed. I’ve found a lot of value in your review vids.
I’m a guitarist/songwriter who found myself getting busy mixing other folks music. My journey has been one of steady improvement over the years, but still feel like I’m flirting with “professional” mixes. I definitely found my room was hurting me. Recently I’ve been mixing on headphones (see Andrew Scheps opinion on this). Thus far , it’s improved my mixes.
Thanks, Daniel. I’ve mixed one track on headphones and I can hear the flaws now. Personally, I’m a speaker guy. It’s totally about what works for you. I only just feel like I’ve accomplished a professional mix on the last few weeks.
Genelec 8300 series. I have the 8341 plus the the sub . I have a smalish room and they are the only speaker that worked in my room. And ive tried them all
ALL speakers?
I have been and am this similar journey as well. I use the Adam Audio 7XA and reference with the Neumann MD30 headphones and I ran into similar struggles in translations, but had to break things down to their basics. I ran REV to analyze my room, checked the frequency responses of my monitors, headphones and outside speakers that I use to check my mix and made diagrams for reference. So I am learning the strengths and weaknesses of my room and pieces of gear to mix accordingly. Also spectrum analyzers will detect what your monitors and or ears do not. As Warren says don't mix what what you can't hear. Every speaker will have its strengths, flaws and signature, but like you said there are Mixers that use NS10s that can make our work seem embarrassing. That is because they have the technical skillset and experience not necessarily the gear. Neumann does make great products, but it may be a case of those speakers just did not jive with your room. I am still in the beginning of this journey as well, so there is always something new that you learn through trial and error. It is also comforting to know that you are not alone in the struggles that we experience in this craft.
You’ve hit the nail on the head! But I keep hearing people struggle with the Neumann’s (including a guys who’s mixed Dua Lipa…)😰
I had the exact same problem with a pair of 310s + two 750 subs. Scooped mids. Our mastering engineer always sent something back that sounded not right on the neumanns but great everywhere else.
Right now I have the Adam Audio A7X the previous generation. I really like them because I know them well and I know how my room, but I am looking for an upgrade to a 3 way monitor. This week I was looking to get the Barefoot Footprint 02 around 3k. So I’m still deciding before next week and now you will be reviewing a couple of them, it makes me curious. I’m not sure how long the video will be out. I am so ready to get them.
You should go with what your ears tell you but personally I’d avoid Barefoots like the plague. Way too much low-end, harsh and fizzy top-end, weak midrange. Focals any day at this price point.
@@EdThorne Thank you, in that case let me go back to the store to listen again.
If you can, see if your retailer will bring you a few different sets to try in your studio. There’s no point testing in a different listening environment (especially if their’s is acoustically optimised). SXPro Audio in the UK do this. I also recommend mixing on the speakers and not just listening to reference tracks. That helped me make my decision!
@@EdThorne You’re so right about that, not just listening. Thank you again.
I’ve been in the room with some of the biggest mix engineers that still mix on NS10’s. Whatever you’re comfortable with. I use Slate VSX at the moment as my room is impossible to make sound good until I move to a new one.
The VSXs are VERY popular! No room is impossible but yeh, some are tricky. I thought mine was appalling to begin with but some placement changes made a big difference.
What a fantastic topic. My first mixes were done on Yamaha HS8's. My first mastering engineer picked up not only the brand of speakers but that I was also in an untreated room. Too much bottom end! I managed some room treatment, new monitors, Dynaudio BM15A's and also 2 sets of headphones, Sennheiser HD800S and the Neumann NDH30's. The difference was earth shattering. Sadly my monitors are boxed up and in the cupboard as I am dealing with noise restrictions but the headphones are working fine. Looking forward to seeing which way you went. PS I wish I had the options to review other brands like you, cheers Ma9Na
Yeh, it’s been a privilege to be able to try all these speakers. How are the HD800s?
I actually rotate between the HD 800S, HD820 and the Neuman NDH30's. The 800S give a brilliant sound stage, space and air. I find them nice and nuetral especially getting into the nitty gritty of finishing and very non fatiguing. I do miss my Dynaudio's though@@EdThorne
Different speakers for different scenarios different rooms. I have genelec s30ch in the semi treated room for critical listening but I get ear fatigue from them after a few hours even at low volumes. Genelec 8010 for the office which are great for that room. Dynaudio bm15p with bryston 4b in the living room as I dont have enough rack space for them in the treated room. Adam t5v in the semi treated room to not piss off the neighbours in the late evenings.
My KSDigital A200 mk 2 are fantastic. They go down to 20 hz, so I don’t need a sub. And they sound fantastic.
I’ve not heard of these, I’ll check them out. 20Hz at what dB output?
@@EdThorne sorry, its 28-22khz on -3 dB
And they are very precise on the location of the panning
Focal SM-9 use them in focus mode most of the day but check full range when I feel like it's time to get the low end working on both bigger systems as well. I have Dirac for both setups and that room correction made me do 3 things better. Optimized position of speakers, a bit of eq on the focals to make them fit the room better and a the room became magic. Translates perfect and I know due to measurements (and lots of refernces) the room is at it's best with this combination. So I can recommend focal and dirac for less optimal rooms.
I went the route of the Amphions - a lot of high profile mixers use them. A great producer/mixer and friend of mine got a pair and convinced me and my mixes really stepped up.
I’ve only heard incredible things about the Amphions. Not heard them myself though.
I'm very curious to hear/demo Amphion monitors. Have 14 pairs of speakers at home/studio now. Plus 5 subs. So I gotta chill... 😅
Latest purchase was some Yamaha NS-10's. Was surprised at how pleasant I find them.
Hello Ed! I’d like to share my opinion on this matter. I feel like any speaker that somewhat follows the fletcher munson curve with really good decay and response time of the driver(s) (alignment as well) is what anybody trying to get great mixes that translate, should be using..combined with good taste in music and a lot of common sense on the genre of music the engineer is working on keeping the target platform/audience in mind (this can be culture/area/medium of consumption etc.). Speakers I feel that may help with this are NS-10, CLA-10A, Amphion One 15, Small genelecs with SAM for time alignment, PMC 6, ProAc SM100, Auratones etc. I feel like the complete mix should be done on this kind of setup and then a secondary setup with sub/threeway/ added sub to this that can be toggled with a footswitch to check how the mix sounds in a full range system. (Doesn’t matter it can even be krk speakers + sub as the full range checking speakers if budget is issue). This kind of process in my opinion really makes the engineer, the missing link. After much experimentation this is my conclusion. Ignore this ID name, it’s my younger brother’s iPad youtube lol…Let me know what you think :D
I love my KH120’s… but I do find them a bit dark sometimes so overcompensate with the high end. I’ve also stopped trusting sonarworks and feel my mixes translate better when I don’t use it in the mix process! I have recently bought the NDH30 and found them quite interesting…
I know what you mean. It’s a compromise of 2-way speakers though, they’ll never extend in either direction as far as a 3-way. Sonarworks/SoundiD works well from an EQ perspective up to 3-4dB, max, then it does strange things. It also doesn’t get the phase alignment even close. The KH750 sub is a noticeable step up. Then Trinnov blows that out of the water again!
I also stopped using Sonarworks. It’s glitchy and poorly implemented.
Assuming you have tried to move your listening location? In the experience I had was quite crucial.
However, until December 22 my KRK RP8 were spot on for the room size I had. Now in the (smaller) new room I have I had to change for a smaller drive which is Kali Audio lp6 which better result. Still not there but is a good start and definitely better than the previous.
Yeh, I’ve tried numerous positions that space will allow and even had a professional acoustician in to advise and help position the desk/speakers, etc. short of re-building the room from the shell up (which I can’t because it’s not my studio) I think I’ve exhausted all options.
That was a smart decision to downsize the driver for the smaller room👌
@@EdThorne You must be understandably exhausted indeed as those things they completely shake your brain.
Hope you will find a valid solution.
Yes smaller drive made the difference so far but need more treatment.
Cheers from Leyton
I have worked as an intern in a studio which uses Quested speakers and I was always second guessing there when I was mixing there. I felt like I didn't quite hear the mid range and I felt like the speakers where kinda dark. At home I've got eve sc207 and I feel like they're great but my room is quite bad. so Now I am saving up to get some nice treatment going 👍
Have you measured your room for problems using REWs (or SoundiD)? There’s a lot you can do before treatment (position/speaker distances/equilateral triangle positioning, etc). Simple first reflection point treatment goes a long way too. Good luck!
I have the most random monitoring setup, but it works really good for me and I dont have acoustic treatment because I've moved from my home (about 2-3 months ago) to a room in the back of a house. I use Kali LP6 V1 (not the 2nd wave) as my "upper" monitors and a HS8 as sub (not the HS8S).
I use iD14 as Audio Interface and I made a routing work to have this to work properly, not clashing frequencies. I don't have perfect monitors placement and I use ARC 3 from IK Multimedia as my calibration software.
THE ONLY "Problem" I have is that I sometimes put a little too much of treble (like a hihat a little bit louder than it should be to others mixers I sent my mixes). Anyway, the sound has been pretty balanced, although my condictions are not perfect at the moment.
I've never felt this way before, but I'm very happy with the sound I can get out of my system nowadays.
Edit: Using the HS8 as a SUB with the ARC 3 calibration made the biggest difference for me. "It's all about that bass" lol
That’s great. It’s all about learning your environment. I felt I was still battling an uphill battle though so decided to spend on better speakers.
@@EdThorne I really hope that the change of audio monitors helps you in that journey! Have you ever considered change the DAC (converter)? A lot of people say it makes an enormous difference in the monitoring. I was struggling with the midranges like you said in the video when I was using a pair of HS8 as my main monitor. TOO MUCH MIDRANGE (for me) 🤣
In my opinion, you always have to listen to the new speakers in your room. Because it changes everything. I got lucky that my new room isn't (or at least I think it isn't) compromising my mixes that much. I've tried Sonarworks (not the SoundID), it was sounding kinda right/flat but It didn't feel natural to me and I couldn't get a mix that made me proud... that was the difference between Sonarworks and ARC 3 for me and it has helped a lot.
Well, there's always someway/something to upgrade. I guess even Serban Ghenea has something he wants to upgrade in his monitoring system lol
Got a pair of ATC SCM25 MK2 earlier this year, (also use Kali Audio IN-8's, which i thing are fantastic.) The ATC's have cut my mix time down considerably. The detail in the mid range is incredible to my ears. I don't use sonar works anymore, just spent some time learning these speakers and everything translates.
The ATCs are awesome. And yeh, cut my mix time way down too. Then I heard the PSIs and they did it again! Then I started over working because they’re too revealing 🤣 A balance was found.
Same exact experience here
I worked at studio that had those once. Not saying they were bad speakers - they are a stellar hi-fi system in every way! - but totally and utterly useless for mixing. As a matter of fact, the engineer was using the Yamaha HS-10 for mixing basically 99.9% of the time.
As soon as he started the subwoofer, I backed out the chair 2 or 3 meters to avoid some of the early subwoofer reflections, and the result wasn't bad, but the image of the speakers - which are basically bookself - was too tight to get the stereo right, so he told me to come in closer. When I did, it was obvious that the sub made all sort of weird reflections happen and I didn't like it as a mixing tool at all. It's a great feel to listen to music on any such high-end system, but he would literally NOT use it. I looked around the studio, and though about all the things that could be improved : a very old Mac Pro that desperately needed changing (2009...!!!! holyshit) and would crash at least once in a session, no thank you; a better organization system for the equipment was also desperately needed; a new desk was needed as well - one of the leg was barely working with a board on top! :O And instead they spent many thousands on this system which......... made them 0$.
My advice as a sound engineer? Do not use a sub unless you are in a pro studio built from the ground up for it, with the proper distance and bass traps. Otherwise you're muddying your mix. As we sometimes say, "The sub is for clients only" .... can you really afford that??? I certainly can't!
What if you have a big bed room?
The speakers might be the most important gear in the room. Always have a pair of Yamahas in the room, and a pair of lower middy speakers,genelec,focal,etc.
@@FredDeMassiveAlambic I am not referring to NS10’s specifically,HS7s are also a great choice for detecting harsh frequencies
@@FredDeMassiveAlambic I would definitely keep the Yamahas for at least a little while until you get used to the Neumanns. From my understanding the Neumanns are very warm so you’re getting two very different sound signatures there. Keep to see if it’s beneficial,if you feel like it’s not then sell
I mix 80% on headphones, due to having to be quiet while mixing late at night. I tried the Harman EQ curve (that @PaulThird recommended) on my mix bus and my mixes immediately started translating better on my monitors and other playback systems.
Yeh, Paul nailed it with that video.
We currently use 7 Kh310, 3 kh879 and 4 kh120.. we can’t use the DSP anyhow in that setup and the sonarworks is a ridiculous system that takes up an hour of our time per calibration..
Do yourself a favour explore Trinnov, even if you don’t do atmos like us. It’s a one pulse solution and we need it as we calibrate twice a day, turn on and after lunch..
Neumann are incredible, but you’re not paying ATC money, you won’t get ATC quality.
Good video, for is we trust the room now so happy and that’s the secret - trusting your room;)
I own the kh120 and i think theyre perfect. I dont think i will switch monitors in a long time and i actually think them not being perfect is what makes them so good. Mixing with a reference and a spectrum analyzer has been the real game changer for me
Referencing and knowing your room is key, for sure. These speakers simply don’t work - for me - in my room.
@@EdThorne yeah it's just a matter of taste I guess. I may find myself on the same situation as you a few years down the line haha!
I upgraded from Focal to ATCs and it was a night and day difference. I'm doing a mix in 2 hours now that sounds miles better than a mix that took me 5 hours a couple months ago. It definitely could be a monitoring issue you're dealing with. If mids are an issue, PMC and ATCs are absolutely the best midrange highlighting speakers I've heard.
I will also say, the KH120s are such a small speaker which means they'll be bottled up in the mids. Getting a bigger, 3 way speaker with a larger cabinet will definitely help open the midrange a little bit. The 310s and 420s sound drastically different than the 120s to me.
Neumanns are among the flattest production speakers on the market in both direct and estimated room average response. 99.99% sure it really is just your room. Also, room correction dsp programs are not honest in their “before” and “after” representations. Use REW to measure the “before” and “after” and you’ll see what I mean.
All that said, if you found a pair of speakers that work better in YOUR room than the Neumanns, that’s fantastic! 👍😃
If you look at professional mixes made by Bob Cleamountain that sound great, they also look like being low in the mids in True Balance. So take that metering with a pinch of salt.
I’ve never tested other people’s mixes in True Balance, this is a great idea. Thanks.
I have PMC 6-02 and ill never turn back. Amazing.
Great speakers!
I had the KH120s which convinced me to get the KH310s... the 3 way makes a huge difference. I predict you've opted for the ATCs... are you keeping the Neumann 750? Honestly, that subwoofer changed everything for me.
All will be revealed soon (Or follow me on Insta for more immediate clues 😉). I’m keeping the sub for now to run my room correction but I have Trinnov on the way so may not need it but I like the low-end extension it provides.
Here 2 x KH310A, KH750 and MA1. It's great. Results are very pleasant.
My Focal Alpha Evo 6.5's elevated my mixes and were $ well spent.
What did you have before?
Me? I just have to accept that I lack the skills, audible range detection and even arrangement acumen, so I have begun to ask others to help me mix and master. It is also a very revealing journey. The best news is learning where the weak spot is and dealing with it positively. I love where you are going with this. You know what? Sometimes it IS the equipment.
I refuse to accept a lack of skill I’m always driven to learn and achieve better. There are things that I accept I can’t/don’t want to do and delegate (eg. web design/mastering)
I got gene 8351b’s and I couldn’t be happier
Try Eve Audio SC2070's without any room correction - they have a perfect balance right off the box. I have them and passive Auratones with a bettermaker amp - this combo is amazing. I mix first 20% on Eves, then I do all the balancing, compression, automation, effects and additional eq moves to shape the mid mids a bit better on Auratones and then I come back in the end to Eves to check the upper mid details and the bass listening with higher volume. In the end I do some quick AB with my references on Beyerdynamics DT880 Pro and last tiny 0.25-1.5dB moves to make it sound 100% on par with my references.
also it's a good idea to start a mix with a lower volume on your main full-range monitors to focus on the mids and a high mids more.The bass checks should be done listening very loud from my experience.
Yeh, I start quiet and check the bass activation in the room every now and then bu increasing the volume.
I think the styles you're mixing make a difference in what speakers to get. But ATC's translate extremely well in pretty much any genre. I have barefoot FP01's but I mainly produce and mix pop, rnb, afro, latin and house music. These sound fantastic for those genres but I probably would've chosen something different had I worked with rock/metal genres. Good luck on your journey!
Thanks. Yeh, different speakers lend themselves to different things.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these monitors! I think bass extension with even full range representation and ease of translation is crucial. Also if you could articulate how each monitor would feel to produce music on that’d be helpful as well
I will but I have since realised I didn’t use any of these while tracking… which is a different story again to mixing on which is a different story to listening to playback.
Great vid looking forward to the next one
Thanks, Ricky. PDP MUM8 interview next week, then the speaker comparison video. 🔥
You need to use stands. And you need to position them 7 - 8 feet each other, and 6 feet to you..
Try that.
It is about shape of your head.
I had that problem too, and then had tried another positioning. And problem 80% solved
I have a friend who spent quite a bit on trying to make his room right. He found out that there's a 200 htz node in his room that he can't take out even with insulation, reflectors, and eq. He even got advice from a company that got made his bass traps.
After hearing about all the crap he went through and knowing I wouldn't be able to spend even half as much as he did. I'm going to go with some really nice head phones and a DAC
Headphones do eliminate room problems but your room may not be as problematic as your friend’s. Some small placement/height adjustments and first reflection treatments can go a long way. Also, no room is perfect. I’ve been in $Million studios in LA with problems… (albeit only small problems).
I had Yamaha speakers then i moved to Adams, its DynAudio BM6A passive speakers and i am home
I'm rocking the Focal Shape 65 and think they are very detailed and I can generally trust them and I find that they share a lot of similar qualities to a hifi Focal headphones but I'm thinking about getting RME adi-2 to have parametric EQ for room correction and solid converters, because though I have fairly well treated room with almost flawless reverb times, I find I need to correct bit of the area around 100Hz and slight dip in the mid range, their top end is just clear and sweet 🙂
When can we expect the video comparison of studio monitors?
Would like to see what you found!
If I were to upgrade from these Focals it would probably have to be something like Kii Three 😉
There’s a lot of love for the Focals. I have a Present Day Production/M.U.M.8 interview next week, and then my full comparison video.
I would tend to think that sonarworks calibration would have tremendously helped, esp. since it involves auditioning your room with the provided mic.
If your room is so resonant at a specific frequency, maybe its treatment needs to be adapted. That being said, there are no "neutral" monitors, all have their color, and you should pick the color that feels the most natural to you, then spend hours listening to music on them, to teach your brain what "normal" music sound like in your room. Then you're ready to mix/master on your monitors, as your brain will make you target the new "normal"
Even with Sound iD the speakers simply didn’t work for me in my room. The new speakers are working beautifully in the same environment.
@@EdThorne Very interesting. Thanks for the feedback 🙂
Has Neumann for 8 years and reached same conclusiion as you 2 years ago. One of my main set of monitors today is the krk s4 v4 with a sub and my mixes are far more accurate and crisp smh... The whooly sound of Neumann i agree. I used to swear by them but not anymore. I had the nd30 headphones too and sold it as well, very hard to balance highs and mids on those to my ears
I’m hearing this a lot. Interesting about headphones too. I have a set on the way.
@@EdThornei could mix better on a pair of sennheiser jubilee 58x than on the ndh30 and it is not because i was used to them as too me no headfones are perfect. The neumann ndh30 was making all sound good and it is nearly impossible to get the high mids correct.
I have heard great things about The PDP mum 8 :) But i love my Focal's for years now and love them :) but would love to see hear the Mum8
Video coming on the MUM8s. They’re wonderful speakers.
Yep, monitoring is crucial. And it is very common thing when certain speakers work well for some people in certain environments, and for some people don't. Have seen it so many times with other people. Would be fun to see what you ended up with!
In hind sight I should have purchased the monitors before the analog gear but you love and learn. The “reveal video” will be part 4 of this series.
@@EdThorne well, we humans are not a very rational bunch. I think I get this type of realization at least once a month. :)
I am not in a pro studio but am full time working in audio since March this year. I am just about to upgrade from Adam F7 (which I had for the last 8 years) to the Adam A7Vs as I did notice that the F7 have been holding me back in the recent months. I can go to the 8s due to my room being smaller and I need front facing sub ports as the speakers are right up to the wall.
I also use Sonarworks and I have to say it's a good tool but it's not fixing major issues. I now mostly use it to reference the mix and the midrange once the mix is almost done, mixing through Sonarworks has cause me ear fatigue like crazy.
Did you see Warren Huarts interview with Steve Klein about speaker placement ? That guy is legit and it helped me. The way he explains it is very matter of fact LOL. I also use Neumann KH120s and they are great compared to my DynaAudio or KRKs. Hope this helps !
I’ve worked with a professional acoustician in my room and feel now with proper isolators I have done all I can. Trinnov is on the way!
I use the KH80s with the KH750 sub and they do well, but the most accurate playback I have is through the NDH 30 headphones. The interface matters, too. I have found a pretty big difference in DACs and the Metric Halo ULN-8 3D Mk IVs work really well for me.
The 80s are Neumann’s best speaker in my opinion. And I still use the 750 with its room correction. Yeh, I’ve learned how huge conversion is. I can’t improve on my X16 atm.
Kh 750 has built-in DAC as it can connect digital input.
@@jianhuang0124 It does but that makes it hard to control the level without losing bits. Also, the MH ULN-8 3d Mk IV converters sound a lot better, even with the extra conversion.
@@edwinhurwitz6792 unfortunately even you have a 10 thousand dollar DAC, kh 750 will still do the AD and DA conversion internally. Basically you cannot bypass the DAC
@@jianhuang0124 I completely understand that. What you also can't get around is that if you attenuate the signal digitally when you connect digitally to the KH750 and attenuate the volume so it doesn't take your head off, you are losing the 24 bit signal and it becomes a lower bit depth. Having tried both, I prefer sending an analog signal to the KH750. If they had created a way to control the level from the speaker array, then it would probably sound better, but they did not. I don't like losing resolution. YMMV.
Yamaha HS5's work better here than KH120 A's - I'm using Kali IN 5's now, but may go back to the HS5's - though Genelec 8040 might be worth a try - Focal Solo 6 another choice, but sound too good, so might not really help! Neumann KH-120 A's are overly damped and warm for this room - I check my mixes on Focal Clear MG cans, a big help as they are detailed high and low, I also use Avantone Mixcubes. If I was to go up to the next level price-wise, I would love to try the PSI Audio Active 17M Studio pair - most accurate, they say - but could be overkill in here, very small semi-treated room - still, maybe one day, get a used pair ;-) The Kali's are very listenable, like having a sub in the speaker (3 way dual concentric) and probably better in here than the KH120 pair, but the tops are not really forward enough for mastering I don't think - still keeping them and listening on the Focal Clear cans to check the highs is not too much bother - I can tell a lot about the mix with the Kali's, may be I'll get used to them in time
You've built nice little resonators to put them boxes on. I can bet that raised surface hums along somewhere in the range you described, unless you get the monitors off your desk you won't get that range right. Maybe some speakers will be less sensitive to boundary resonance and interference (coaxial Designs or non-ported boxes), but that doesn't mean there isn't still a problem there.
I’ve had them on isolator pucks - same problem. Space limitations prohibits mounting speakers anywhere else otherwise I’d be doing this.
@@EdThorneyou can mount to the wall, from the ceiling, get stands directly behind the desk, or at least isolation stands
I realized just how important speaker sound was a couple months ago. I've been over to my friend's studio a couple times to film some content with him and his speakers are much more dull than my speakers. To the point I usually can't hear small details on them when we film mic shootouts. He has just now noticed that the dullness of his speakers are affecting his mixes as well and he is looking to upgrade. Hard to get the results you want when you can't fully hear what you are doing!
What’s he got over there? My first mix out of my new speakers was dull because I wasn’t used to having such spacious top end🤣 Have corrected this quickly though.
@@EdThorne I don't remember what he has sadly 🤣😭
Im using a pair of cheap m-audio bx8 d3's with sonarworks on the master chain , my problem is around 2k , my mixes are scooped around that range , and by scooped i mean 4-3db scoop , sometimes even worse , i never had the same problem with the smaller bx5's , i have a pair of T7Vs as my 2nd pair to help a/b between my mains , i think the problem could be the distance between me & my monitors , so ill be getting smaller Neumann Kh 80s to help with that , lol yes neumanns
The KH80s are the best speaker Neumann make imo. Your 2k dip is probably where the cross over is and they haven’t compensated for it with DSP. Generally the case with cheaper speakers.
That makes perfect sense since they crossover at 1.9khz , tried to fix that with sonarworks but my mixes still aren't translating , KH 80s it is then , thanks Ed 👊🏽
I had a low mid issue with the Neumann too. I also couldn't hear small EQ and Compession changes.. I was over compressing as a result.. Upgraded to Amphion one15s. Not the best sounding for general listening but they make issues in a mix undeniable and they translate. I can finally pass the car test. What did you end up choosing?
Hi I'm a new sub. I have the KH 80's and they have been my journey into higher end monitors/audio. I am considering an upgrade similar to yours so it will be interesting to see what you discover in the next few vids with testing other monitors.
Thanks for watching. The 80s are Neumann’s best speaker IMO. What speakers are you considering? All my speakers series videos are now out.
@@EdThorne Tbf my budget would be up to 5k so not so similar to yours lol. Focal Trio 6 is what I'm thinking.
I used to have this issue with the Yamaha Hs Series. Right now I'm looking for a new set of studio monitors.
Speakers like the HS’s and Adam TV series are fantastic for the money but I find they lack any depth of sound and sound flat. What might you upgrade to?
@@EdThorne I was talking to an associate from Sweetwater and He'd recommend the Kali IN-8 or the new line of Focal Alpha's. I'm going to do some research.
Whatever you do, make sure make a VERTICAL move, not a lateral move. @@haroldbones84
I feel your pain! I had some ATC45a's in a really small room (a single garage) I couldn't get a coherent sound from the 3 woofers because I was so close to them and, like you, my mixes were coming out mid range light. Gutted because they are an amazing set of monitors! I guessed I needed something coaxial with a potential closer listening position so went with the Ex Machina, Pulsars which are magnificent. My mixes improved but I still have an annoying 90hz null in a well treated room lol. The struggle continues! I'd love to try Dutch and Dutch 8cs or Kii Threes just to see if they live up to the hype of eliminating so much of the room. Cheers- looking forward to finding out what you ended up with :-)
Yeh, I’d say the 45s are mid-range speakers, probably too big for a single garage. Beautiful speakers though! The Ex-Machina’s are absolutely incredible! Maybe Trinnov could fix/manage your 90Hz null?
@EdThorne yes, have been eyeing up the nova actually so yet again will be interested in your experience with it. Cheers Ed, all the best
I also have the KH120’s and I have a feeling I’m experiencing the same issue. As a result I’m looking around at other monitoring options. Unfortunately the MUM’s, PSI, ATC and PMC’s are well out of my budget. However, I’m considering the Focal Solo6 ST6’s.
Did you get to hear those at Gearfest? If you did, what were your thoughts on those vs the KH120’s?
I’ve heard the same complaint from many people. I haven’t heard the Solo ST6s. They may have been in their Atmos room at GearFest but I didn’t pay close enough attention to accurately comment, sorry.