I have done a lot of setups and have always raised the stop bar if it was necessary to achieve proper break angle. In so doing, some of my customers had the complaint that it was going to reduce sustain. I assured them that it would not and that the overall play-ability would improve as the string tension would be more consistent across the strings as they were designed to be. I also assured them that if they didn't agree after playing it for a while I would redo the setup at no charge. I only had 1 customer that asked me to redo it but he said I was totally right about the feel and the sustain but he just liked the look of it all the way down to the body and so to achieve the look he wanted and to keep the proper break angle and better feel i top wrapped it. He totally loved it as it had the aesthetics that he wanted and the better "feel" play-ability that proper break angle achieves on proper string tension.
I tried screwing down my tailpiece a while back. I found that the guitar played better with the tailpiece raised up to get the proper break angle over the saddles. I didn't notice any difference in the sustain.
I have done it both ways and I have done the top wrap. A lower break angle is the biggest difference maker, whether it’s via top wrap or raising the tailpiece.
Try using a Faber aluminium tailpiece with Faber steel posts with spacer. That why the tailpiece is tight fit to body with a shallow angle over the bridge.
I currently only have one guitar with this type of bridge setup, and jumped down this rabbit hole a few years ago. I pretty much came to the same conclusion as you did here. Set it up the way it plays best! If there's no buzzing or any weirdness, you're good. I always raise the tailpiece a bit because (a) it prevents the lower strings from hitting the bridge and (b) I find it plays a little better for my tastes (a little less stiffness). If decking it down to the body makes a difference with sustain, you likely wouldn't notice anyway (as you've demonstrated). Thanks for doing this video though, as hopefully it'll prevent people from falling down the same search engine rabbit hole I went down when I first looked into this!
You also have to consider that the added tension on lowering the tailpiece can and will over time depending on bridge material and construction will weaken your bridge and basically fail. So the radius flattens out. Thus buzzing strings. I’ve replaced more than I can count from people who take the tailpiece to the face. I’m retired now but spent over 40 years repairing/building guitars. Wrapping your strings over the tailpiece helps but it’s totally subjective.
love it! i got 2 pauls. one i have top wrapped so i can have the stop tail all the way down. the other is thru so i keep a small gap between the string and back of the bridge. it works for me and i don't over think it. otherwise i'd be spending all my time trying to set things up (chasing my own tail) and not playing and enjoying myself. i think once you hit a certain angle it's just not gonna matter all that much anyway.
I bought a used SG. When I got it, the tail piece was all the way down. I raised it when I set it up for me. I didn't notice any effect on the sustain, but it did make a big difference in the feel of the strings.
100% solid advice in this video! I raised my stop bar to keep the strings off the bridge and did not notice a sustain reduction. It’s a Les Paul, it just sings like that naturally, almost like those notes ring out effortlessly. I do love the reduced tension with the stop bar raised, too.
So a while back, I swapped out the bridge on my tele to one that is top loading. I did this for no other reason than it's less frustrating to change strings than stringing it through the body. There are people who think I'm crazy for doing this because the strings don't have as close of a connection to the wood and my sustain will suffer. I've never noticed a single difference in the way my guitar sounds, sustains, or even feels. This stuff is all in people's heads.
That’s what I’ve always assumed. I’ve never done any testing, but if your bridge/posts/tailpiece are so loose that they are effectively acting as a damper then you have bigger problems. I’d always assumed so, anyway. There are no doubt still some things we can do to improve the design of the electric guitar but they are mostly convenience and/or tuning stability things. We have a corpus of 50-odd years of guitar playing canon and 99.9999% of that was created with the design and design flaws we currently have. Even if it’s ‘wrong’ I don’t want it to be right! I want to innovate in my songwriting and sound design, I’m pretty happy with the guitar as it is. Mostly.
At one time guitars with a tailpiece use to come with an owners manual. The manual explained the tailpiece and why one would adjust it. If one wanted a slinkier feel or less tension on the strings then one would raise the tailpiece. If one wanted more string tension (less slinkiness) one would lower the tailpiece. The manual also explained this engineering concept and the physics behind this. I believe the guitar was an Ibanez with a tailpiece that came with this manual. In recent years (last twenty years or so) I never see this manual with guitars with tailpieces. I find that most people dont know what the purpose of the tailpiece is for.
Longest sustaining guitar I have, is a kit guitar from Solo, the Jem kit. So It has a multi piece Ash body with a Canadian Rock Maple neck, Rosewood fretboard, Now I basically ditched all the hardware and electronics, and I went with the Gotoh Floyd Licensed bridge Ge1996T I swapped the stock brass block for a Philadelphia luthiers Bell Brass block Installed the oversized Bushings but I made them real tight in the body(I know that can cause problems later but it was a bit of a low cost experiment), I have a Tremolo-No unit installed as well. The frets were bad/poorly done so I pulled them and installed Jumbo Stainless frets. Used Gotoh tuners and the Gotoh Brass locking nut. Electronics - 920D upgraded Jem harness - Dimarzio Evo HSH pickups. I use Elixer 10's(I know technically the system is made for 9's).(It wasn't worth the time or effort put into it TBFH), Also side note, the wood is naked no finish is on it, I was trying to cut down on reflected mechanical energy going from the string to the body with a hardened surface bouncing back and canceling out equal waves of energy thus deadening the string vibration(Its a relative simple concept in physics concerning mechanical energy and was the experiment part of this using a low cost platform hence the cheap solo kit) I recommend doing the experiment just for understanding a bit about how mechanical energy and cancelation works just don't go overboard on expense there are cheaper ways. Its a very similar concept to what active noise cancelation headphones use. So I don't like playing it, but its because it has too much sustain, like uncontrollable uncomfortable sustain, and the body of the guitar literally vibrates like hell when I pluck the strings in a "Spirited Manner". Its one of my little experiments that I need to learn to tame to play the damn thing or figure out a use case for it or just use a very light touch. So I completely agree the whole sustain thing is overblown, and or not needed so much, if you need it that badly use a pedal and you hit the nail on the head anyways about the seconds you probably should be around with a decent guitar and good setup. Also I am not sure are you referring to Ola England and his son and their experiments concerning sustain and neck configuration, I know they did a whole experiment with Neck through vs. Set Neck vs. Bolt on and from what they concluded the neck through has the least sustain that is noticeable, but Set neck and Bolt on is such a negligible difference that it doesn't matter. Sustained notes and songs, Pink Floyd - The Wall, Gilmour used a bit of gain(Fuzz/Compression/Delay/Modulation/Reverb) with his bends(and vibrato) in Comfortably Numb and some of his background notes on the album seem like just 1 or two note plucks in the background in some songs that are just sustained for a long period of time as tonal filler behind some of Waters acoustic Playing or between drum patterns.
I changed my original tuneomatic bridge for a Schaller roller bridge on my 78 LP Std mainly for string breakage and intonation issues. But because the pegs going in the body are thicker I did notice a more solid sustain. It's the only mod I've ever done on the guitar. I would like locking tuners but just haven't done it yet.
I don't care what he does, I like the angle at the bridge the same as at the nut, so quite shallow, but not TOO shallow! I like resting my hand on the raised stop bar sometimes (not the strings), and don't like the feel of top-wrapping, which I always assumed was a myth passed-down from those dope smoking UK guitar players...to dope smoking USA guitar players!
One thing worth mentioning is if you lock down your tailpiece to the body, it will eventually collapse the bridge and not match the radius of the fretboard anymore. That will make it play much worse.
I’ve always kept my tailpieces high, and my 32yo Les Paul Standard has a $20 Gotoh bridge on it because the saddles have further travel than the Gibson bridge and it enables me to intonate my guitar better.
The topic of sustain came up a few months back in a live chat and I went down a rabbit hole searching the scientific literature on the topic. Unfortunately, I didn't retain the links, but, the guitar string vibrating is a fluid dynamics problem. Once the bridge is stable enough to not move under the string vibration then the next largest component affecting sustain is air resistance followed by the magnetic force on the strings. That leads me to believe then that there is a theoretical maximum, based on the cross sectional area of any given string, that will determine how long it can sustain.
I agree with most of this, but i disagree about why sustain is important. For me its not about getting a note that can ring out longer. When a guitar has good sustain, the string is transferring energy more efficiently so it rings longer, but the important thing is that its also ringing out stronger and more healthily. Its been my experience anyway, that when a guitar has poor sustain it also has a weak and muddy sound. So having a guitar with 10 or 12 seconds of audible sustain is usualy also going to be a guitar with a clear and lively charm. Just my experience.
I've got a LP Type guitar (V100) with ABR1 bridge. I wanted to lift the tailpiece but not use over wrap, so put washers onto the bolt then screwed down the bolt with the string holder (of tailipiece) on top. This resulted in the right height I wanted but also a great solid connection with the guitar body. Never come across anyone else doing this yet, but it's great. Note it was a standard LP Tailpiece. All best.
Using an ABR-1 bridge and tailpiece, so long as the posts are properly installed on the body, so long as all pieces are touching (or in battery, if you will) there should be no difference in sustain, short of changing the type of bridge. You can correct me if I am wrong. Sadly, I built a ES-335 kit and accidentally didn't level the set neck before the glue took hold (long story), and had to set the bridge and tailpiece (ABR-1) near the high end of the mounting posts. I have not noticed any difference in sustain between this handsome axe and my Les Paul, or another ES-335 I built that didn't have this issue.
Yes, raising the tailpiece will not reduce recordable audio sustain. But the guitarist can fill more vibration transmitted through the body and neck of the guitar when the tailpiece is screwed down tight to the body. You get a feedback response from the guitar through your hands; it really helps you to bond with a guitar. It's almost like you can feel the music more. Some of my guitars, the tailpiece can be lowered without resting on the bridge. The other guitars I have had to do a string over ramp. Another benefit of ramping the strings over the bridge is that the strings are more slinky and easier to do bends.
If you have the tail piece all the way down to where it hits the back of the bridge it makes a ping sound that’s in your tone while you were playing raise it up just enough to wear. It does not touch. You will still get a ping sound naturally if you scrape across it with your pic, you can hear it, but there’s more of a ping sound when it lays down onto the bridge which will bleed into your tone.
Lifting the tailpeice on my Eastman T386 corrected uneven string tension, sitar style resonance and poor clarity in fretted notes higher than the 14th. Instantly, as 3 strings were previously touching the rear of the bridge. Brilliant
I prefere the feel (under my right hand) and look of a fully lowered tailpiece, so I always top wrapped my TOM guitars to reduce string break angle, but sustain was never an issue for me
12:40 - the amplified signal coming from the speaker can add to the sustain also. Get that loop gain up enough via volume and/or compression/distortion, and the sustain can become infinite. Carlos does it all the time. How long was that one note in Europa? Couple minutes? I also did it back in the gigging days. I could literally feel the way the guitar responded and find the spots that would work, and got really good at doing stuff like leaning one way or the other to change harmonics. Also got good at mimicking back-masked (backward recorded) guitar live. Sometimes I'd find someone in the crowd who understood what backmasked guitar was and would go all "Nipper dog" while watching me do it live, without flipping time around.... :D Some also claim the guitar has to be heavy to sustain fully, which, IMHO, is a load of manure. The guitar has to be STIFF, to keep from absorbing energy from the strings. I have a PRS 245 SE that is really light mahogany, but is super resonant and has amazing punch. $650 several years ago. Better than my LP Studio, which I subsequently sold to finance other guitar stuff....
Thanks for the info. Been going down this rabbit hole, not so much due to sustain about about playability/ slinkiness of the strings. I have played USA standards for a long time and recently for a custom shop LP. Despite having the same gauge strings and a nice action I noticed the stings (particularly the low E, A,D) feel stiffer, like I’m using heavier stings. I was wondering if raising the tail piece or top rapping might make the stings feel a bit more slinky. Sounds like it might based on all the comments I’m reading
I wrap the stings over the top and screw the tailpiece all the way down. This does a few good things including lightening the playing feel by reducing string pressure on the bridge saddles, increasing tailpiece connectivity to the body (contact and less screw resonance), and increasing the harmonic quality of the overall sound. I also use very light gauge strings (.008 sets) to better emphasize the mids and upper-mids, and to ease the overall tension of the guitar and truss rod. Guitars like that and they reward us with better response and feel when we let them relax.
@@JavierPwns You know, like most people, if someone thinks that I wrote something that is funny, I'm grateful. However... Are you laughing with me or at me? Did I say something you find funny? Am I a clown to you? Do I amuse you? WTF?
You might be interested in Billy Gibbons' ZZ Topp "Mexican Lottery" .007 gauge string sets? That I don't think he uses himself? Also - relaxed guitars and ...I'm not supposed to laugh?
Top Wrapped here-But-I purchased the Lightening Bridge which negated the top wrap (check out their website) I tried to "Deck: the tail piece and had some "buzzing". Yup-raised the tail piece a few turns. Sure enough, the slinky feel was there as well as no buzzing and sustain. Really not noticeable to human ears, but just a feel that each one of us, has as guitar players. In the end, it's all what the individual guitarist hears and more importantly "feels". it's all about the music!!
raising the tailpiece (or wrapping the strings) lowers the break angle tension and the percieved tension on the strings, which allows them to oscillate more and get a deeper tone. raising = deeper. lower = brighter. pretend you tuned down a full step and played an E chord (the note not the position) it'll sound WAY deeper and heavier than playing an E chord in standard tuning. same thing can be achieved by raising the tailpiece. too much and it doesn't respond well or feel right. same with too low. it's a feel thing.
on my SG I found raising the tailpiece drastically increased sustain, especially if you're not resting your hand behind the bridge. If you rest your hand behind the bridge on the strings it's killing the notes the same way the back of the bridge does when it's touching the strings
okay, now that I watched I do agree with the length of the note/mechanical sustain idea. I do believe that the string hitting the bridge takes away some harmonic overtone of the overall note which is the difference that I may personally hear. Same kinda idea as having a fretwrap behind the nut to take away the extra string noise. Just my theory but there is a massive difference sonically to my ears, although you're right probably not technically "sustain"
If you feel like sustain is lost when raising the tailpiece, just add some metal washers or spacers between the tailpiece studs and guitar body to maintain better coupling.
I know that I live in a simulation! I recently discovered my LP didn’t need a new nut, that the bridge had collapsed, so I bought a new one and was reading about setting up a TOM bridge, and suddenly UA-cam is suggesting new content at the perfect time! FYI, my tailpiece wasn’t decked; it was set so the strings didn’t touch the bridge, but the bridge collapsed anyway. I raised the tailpiece a bit but was considering top wrapping to lower the tailpiece. Might still try it to see if it changes the sound, because replacing the bridge with one that wasn’t collapsed changed the sound quite a bit
my favorite "sustaining songs" band is Earth, particularly, The Bees Made Honey In The Lions Skull, featuring Bill Frisell. Pretty sustain-y. Not sure of the guitar set up or rig and secondary sustain elements, but I love it!
titanium nut and a standard Strat bridge with a brass trem block seems to clarify the notes but sustain is relatively normal but for amp feedback through sympathetic vibrations. from speakers and strings...
Dylan, thanks for doing this. I have a 2017 Les Paul Tribute model that has to have the tailpiece and bridge lifted, in order to have the proper 5/64" Low E and 3/64" High E setup. It's good to know that I can finally point the naysayers to your video and tell them to piss off once and for all.
I raise my tailpiece AND top wrap. My break angle is probably a single millimeter or two. Still get great sustain on both my LPs and setup with 10-46, they bend like 8 gauge strings. I once had a friend who criticized the setup on my Les Paul. Him being such a good musician, I immediately tried to fix it to get it playing better. Only to realize I had it the way I liked it all along. I have an 02 highway one strat with medium high action and I’ve played it for 20 years without a single tweak. Probably why my LP setup is a little higher than most folks like. But who cares. I’m no shredder. Setup a guitar like you want it and forget the haters.
I want the sustain that comes from a loud amp in a large room, but I don't have a large room. A large room is the number one thing I want to get to enhance my tone.
I grew up playing a black, MIJ Westone Spectrum LX (198-mbk) that resinated so much that I would cough constantly when playing it. I miss it! These days I have 2 Westies but, none compare! I recently picked up a Bullfighter LP style guitar along with 2 other single cuts though, I am not blessed with a Gibson.
All les paul players should watch this!! I learned a LOT and saved myself a lot of headaches. Thank you for taking the time to dispel this pain-in-the-butt myth!! I raised my tailpiece years ago, and left it there. In my mind, if the tailpiece is screwed into the body in some form (which they all are), then there's connection between it and the body, and that's good enough for me. Resonance goes a long way, baby!
People seem to have string tension and pressure confused. Nothing you do will change string tension other than changing scale length, or string gauge. Down pressure on bridge will change with tailpiece height. On a 24.75 in scale the tension to make an E note is exactly the same no matter the tailpiece. Now with less down pressure on the bridge the string has more chance to slip in the saddle, is this a good thing, you decide. When you bend a note and the string slips it may give the illusion of less tension but if the string is slipping you have to bend further to achieve the desired note, ultimately reaching the exact same tension of a non slipping string, just one has to be bent further. In the end Tension = Pitch! People need to learn some physics if they are going to make claims about this stuff, (Not meaning Dylan as you do seem to understand it well). Also there is almost no string vibration between bridge and tailpiece so it has mostly 0 effect on anything between bridge and nut.
Totally agree with you, Dylan. For the purpose of this experiment, strumming precision is good enough and lowering the tailpiece for sustain is useless, you can't hear it anyway. People have to practice more to play better and stop blaming ghosts for their lack of consistency.
Happened by here while "baked" ... and I was like ... "W o O w! Bro!" (chuckles). Good info. Tks for sharing. BTW, the stop bar screws give you relief on the string tension so you can more easily bend the notes on your fret bar.
I don't think sustain would have changed. I haven't done any official experimentation, but I've tried a side by side comparison playing my Les Paul with the tailpiece flush, and with it raised up a bit (which is how I prefer it), and I didn't notice a difference in sustain. If there was a difference, it was negligible.
I put a BABICZ FCH TUNE-O-MATIC (Full Contact Hardware) bridge and tailpiece on my 2018 Gibson Les Paul Tribute (non weight-relieved) guitar and it made a huge difference in sustain IMO.
Another way of doing the test that depends even less on how consistently you pluck is to measure the time between your pick attack initial amplitude and when the signal has decreased to some percentage of that peak. You can measure that easily.
When I have played a Les Paul, I have never worried about sustain. It’s hard to kill if you don’t have fret buzz. Next up, why not evaluate how the string depth in a strat term block affects how stiff the guitar plays?
I've been doing exactly this type of work this week and noticed no appreciable difference in the length of the sustain. I did notice a difference in tone across the strings but then, I'm doing this on an Ibanez with Gibraltar bridge and quick change tailpiece - not my favourites.
It doesn't affect sustain significantly but it has a big effect on tone. Raising the stopbar kills the mids. You need to test it in a mix. The bigger the break angle, the more you'll be heard in the mix. Same goes for a Tele and Strat. Although on a Strat, you can go beyond what gives any significant gains, you just make the guitar harder to play.
I have an Epi SG-400, I found the saddles are more prone to tipping forward when intonating or changing strings with less break angle over the bridge, the keeper wire does not hold them in place. I have clearance with the tailpiece all the way down so have no need to raise it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
What about splitting hairs about tonewood? I agree with you. It's much the same about the headstock logos. Are you going to play or stare at the guitar rubbing one's chin as if pondering the thickness of a hair.
maybe its different for each guitar . i top wrapped my strings around the tail piece and lowered it as far as it would go and the sustain lasted much longer. also i measure sustain in a bend not just letting the strings vibrate
Of all the experiments I have seen, the maximum is 4 or 5 seconds in sustain gain from having the tailpiece all the way down. That is, from loud to completely silent. That's over a time of more than 30 seconds! That's WAY outside of the usable part of sustain in normal use. You started by explaining that people who say it makes a big difference also say that you can't measure it properly, because you can't pick precise enough. So they negate any argument they could have, because if it's impossible to measure because of the picking, it's absolutely impossible to even notice in playing! So yes, there is a slight increase if you have it screwed down all the way. A real reason to have the tailpiece lowered could be that it saves you from 1 setup insecurity. All the way down is ALWAYS all the way down. Can't get it wrong :p I heard people say that wrap over actually makes the tension on the strings less, so you can bend more easily. Thing is, the tension defines the note! so if you have the same note, you have the same tension :p (using the same string...) Thanks for explaining and demonstrating ;)
I’ve been listening to people say that argument about not letting your strings touch the tuneomatic behind the saddles for years, but I cannot see any basis for that causing problems at all. Many Fender Strats and Teles have string trees on the headstock, and they don’t interfere with anything because they are on the outside of the fixed node (the nut). Similarly, anything touching the strings beyond the other fixed node (the bridge saddles) should not affect anything either. The whole argument just makes no sense at all from the point of view of the physics.
I can't say. What I've noticed a couple of times is a string just "not sitting in" with the rest, using a cigarette paper to see if it's on the back of the bridge and adjusting it to stop it doing it. Which..........works. Seen this several times.
I am a guitar tech and I have to agree with everything said here, in fact I would go further the biggest impact on tone and sustain is you! I know its a cliche, but the saying 'its all in your fingers' is very true. Sure, you need a properly setup guitar but your technique and style is the biggest influencing factor. A graphic EQ pedal is then all you need to fine tune things and then just go and play.
I have a Gibson les Paul tribute. The tailpiece is cranked as HIGH as she goes. The strings still cut HARD into the rear edge of the bridge between the bridge and tailpiece. My tech says the neck angle is wrong. Dunno but tailpiece needs to be JACKED up and the strings need to be too wrapped or they rub. Hard. Sustain seems the same as my SG though? Cheers. Good video
I've never really consider sustain with the tailpiece. I raise/lower for tension. To slinky and I pull notes outta tune. I play better if I fight it a little so I like more tension than a lot of people.
Well firstly, I'm not much of a "how much sustain it has" kind of guy. If there is one thing I pay attention (be it a myth, or truth) is whether the guitar is loud unplugged. There's ways to get more sustain if needed. That said, I believe they made that tailpiece that way, so you can set a proper strings break angle over the bridge. As long as there is enough, you will not lose any sustain. Too much of it might be bad for the bridge. I wasn't aware people were buying narrower bridges, so they could have the tailpiece all the way down. That is particularly stupid... do they prefer high sustain over an intonated guitar?
I love these debates. Scientific 'proof' required that decking the bridge helps sustain by 0.4 seconds. Its fun and entertaining, after all that's why I'm here, but i must admit when i watch an 'A' list rock band playing in a stadium pumping out 100trillion watts deafening 85000 people, I've never felt the urge to hunt down 'Eric Clapton' or 'Slash' to demand why the solo on 'Egomaniac' lasted 0.4 seconds too short. And by the way 'Mr Knopfler' Your guitar tone is sh*t because its made of 'Brazindian Balsa Ash'! Love Your work Dylan, you explain things people like me can understand! Thanks.
The longest single sustained guitar note that I'm instantly aware of is by Jeff Beck, in a song called 'The Nazz are Blue'. It lasts 12-13 seconds but it's fair to suggest that he was, at least, overdriving the amp and using vibrato and bends to help it along. Otherwise, I'm sure that there's some digital trickery that can make a note sustain indefinitely.
Old-style electric guitarists like Jeff Beck, Peter Green, Gary Moore, used to find the 'sweet spot' in front of the amp where the strings would resonate with the output of the amp, causing almost limitless sustain. It's an old trick.
Right that’s it, supposedly one of the longest sustaining notes in rock ‘n’ roll and that one note encompassed the entire solo for the song. I think there’s a whole backstory on it too as I think he looked at his manager in spite and unleashed this one note and played no more.
Old vid but a good one... So my question is, just how much tension (how close to the body) at that tail piece point is enough to give you good enough sustain from the instrument itself?
Dylan thanks for your common sense approach to playing guitar and cutting through the b.s.,yes we need to play for the fun of it. On another note your comment on cv jazzmasters last week sealed the deal . I bought one and love it thanks! 👍☮️
I just raised the bridge because of this video. It looked to be down to tight on low E. No real noticeable difference. Agree, rather not ruin the tuneamatic part than worry about that quarter of a second loss of sustain. The average listener won’t are or notice. No buzz noticed either!
My stop tailpiece is very high on my 335, so the feel of bending is much easier. I read , it would take away sustain, but i never ever thought , it kills sustain.
This was extremely helpful. I just started working on guitars and basses a few months ago. I've worked on plenty of fenders and tremolo style bridges, I got those down good. A friend had a beat up ibanez gio with his style bridge and I've seen so much saying to slam it to the body, but the logical mechanical part of my brain told me it doesn't make sense. Like you said in the beginning of the video, there's a slot for a screwdriver for a reason.
The first two les pauls I owned I kept my tail piece down. Then I bought a supreme and took it to a luthier. He set it up and when I got it back I was like. Wtf, you aren't supposed to do that. And he goes...dude with the way that guitar is that's the only way to nail the proper tension, neck relief, remove buzzing, and keep your strings off your bridge. It played so much better I literally went back and set up all my les pauls with raised tail pieces. It hasn't ruined the sustain at all and they all Olay better.
I slam my tail piece to the body(just in case, I've been told it sounds better), then wrap the strings around like a Jr. It's my guitar. I'll do what I want. And it looks cool. It doesn't have all that pull from the strings to loosen the inserts. And doing the wrap around method is the perfect break angle for easier playing. So there is a reason, physics. Did i mention it looks cool. Seriously, it seems to play and sound better.
@maidenthe80sla Why the hate? I do this because it's easier to bend the strings. Otherwise, I could care less. Is that ok with you? And it sounds better, easier to play. There's always a classless comit.
5:13 For an electric guitar, sustain that matters comes from feedback or compression (whether from a compression effect or saturation). Given that, I’m saying that it won’t have an appreciable effect…for my definition of appreciable. 🙂
i almost bought a BC Rich ' quadmatic ' bridge - awhile back, but the material for the saddles seemed too zinc - ish they are not abundant available to purchase very often tho'
Love your stuff bud!! Ill buy your test with a fixed bridge, what about a trem? Brass blocks, other material blocks and beefyness? Really loved your "tone wood" vid👍 that guy did a killer deep dive,WOW
A fretted note will always "sustain" less than a open string note on EVERY guitar no matter the height of the stop bar or bridge. Is something "wrong" with the guitar or its "set up"? No, this is how the instrument "works" and it "works" this way with every guitar no matter how different they may be or if they are the exact same models. You can make all the "adjustments" you want and it will NEVER change that fact. This is why when folks fret a single note, they try and use vibrato to "extend" the sustain because if they just hit the note, it will ALWAYS fade away faster than an unfretted note, again, its the nature of how the instrument is. You can get "harmonic/overtone sustain" with an amp to extend the sound of the fretted note by stepping close to or facing the amp your playing out of, but if you using "software" to get your sound, it wont matter, youll get the same results, a fretted note with LESS sustain always. Every time i see these "sustain" videos, it's always an "open string" being "tested" for a reason, it'll last longer but in reality, it's impractical in a playing situation unless you play songs that ONLY deal with open strings and unfretted notes. Are their any? If you want "infinite sustain everywhere", get an ebow or sustainiac and quit worrying about your tail piece or bridge height.
According to Leo Fender the loss of sustain is do to slamming the chords or bending strings as both allow the strings to move away from it's resting point over the saddle. Downward pressure keeps it from sliding. Hence the hardest break over the saddle is best. The ultimate break he felt is strings through body. He also said his original Strat style saddles gives the best sustain because they are a flat piece of steel that literally spreads out and digs in so they too can never break the contact by sliding. According to Trev Wilkinson who worked with Leo for a couple years as an unpaid apprentice Leo is right. He also said that he makes every type of saddle and bridge as he can not afford to lose biz because thousands will hang onto their myths. So I adopted all the above Leo principles years ago and if nothing I have never had any negative issues. It ain't broke so I am not going to fix it, LOL Shawn Tubbs feels he can hear a noticeably better tone from the old bent steel saddles ??? Maybe ???
@Paul_Leonard_Ewing Good information. However, I do want to point out that there is a significant difference between the Fender bridge design whether the Fender uses strat bent steel or block saddles or telecaster type saddles (barrel shaped) and the Tune-O-Matic bridge design in regards to the break angle. On the Fender (even with string through body) where it might appear to be close to a 90 degree angle the saddles themselves are shaped to provide a proper string break angle where as the drop off point on a tune-o-matic can actually be a very steep break angle due to the design of the saddles. The Gibson saddles were intentionally designed the way so that they are able to provide as much intonation range as possible across the narrow bridge. And this is why Gibson in it's tune-o-matic bridge design made the stop bar tail piece adjustable so that proper break angle could be achieved across the saddles by adjusting the stop bar up or down as needed, which Dylan correctly pointed out at the beginning of the video when he showed that the stop bar tail piece has "height" adjustment screws.
Hey Dylan ! Sorry to bug .. but I’m currently in the market to upgrade my pickups and wiring electronics on my 335 style guitar… Since your name is DYLANTALKSTONE and I’m aware of your contribution in the market…(your pickups)….. and I was just hoping for some non bias guided info / input …. I really wanna get that same Jimmy page wiring you installed on that epiphone in that video… but have my eyes on other pick ups (mojotone 59 low output) … in your video you talk about how there’s no volume drop AT ALL and I’m aware you pick ups are wax Potted and the ones I’m looking at aren’t … is that gonna affect the volume or is that volume drop caused by something else?? Cheers thank you
i don't care about sustain, if you don't have a proper amount on tension, too little and you can't pick quickly because the strings are flopping all over and also you 'll have a lot of fret buzz, which you can really reduce with tail piece down enough, it can really help you keep the string height down
The best answer is simple and costs nothing - top wrap! It's not about sustain - the main reason for me was I stopped breaking strings. Also it feels way better and strings are easier to bend which can let you switch to a higher string gauge if wanted. It's also good for preventing bridge collapse which happens a lot ABR1 type bridges There is simply no downside to top-wrapping, other than wear marks which I don't care about.
I have done a lot of setups and have always raised the stop bar if it was necessary to achieve proper break angle. In so doing, some of my customers had the complaint that it was going to reduce sustain. I assured them that it would not and that the overall play-ability would improve as the string tension would be more consistent across the strings as they were designed to be. I also assured them that if they didn't agree after playing it for a while I would redo the setup at no charge. I only had 1 customer that asked me to redo it but he said I was totally right about the feel and the sustain but he just liked the look of it all the way down to the body and so to achieve the look he wanted and to keep the proper break angle and better feel i top wrapped it. He totally loved it as it had the aesthetics that he wanted and the better "feel" play-ability that proper break angle achieves on proper string tension.
I tried screwing down my tailpiece a while back. I found that the guitar played better with the tailpiece raised up to get the proper break angle over the saddles. I didn't notice any difference in the sustain.
I have done it both ways and I have done the top wrap. A lower break angle is the biggest difference maker, whether it’s via top wrap or raising the tailpiece.
Try using a Faber aluminium tailpiece with Faber steel posts with spacer. That why the tailpiece is tight fit to body with a shallow angle over the bridge.
There's greater tension with tailpiece screwed all the way down. Unless you top wrapped, which I won't do to my les paul guitars
I currently only have one guitar with this type of bridge setup, and jumped down this rabbit hole a few years ago. I pretty much came to the same conclusion as you did here. Set it up the way it plays best! If there's no buzzing or any weirdness, you're good. I always raise the tailpiece a bit because (a) it prevents the lower strings from hitting the bridge and (b) I find it plays a little better for my tastes (a little less stiffness). If decking it down to the body makes a difference with sustain, you likely wouldn't notice anyway (as you've demonstrated). Thanks for doing this video though, as hopefully it'll prevent people from falling down the same search engine rabbit hole I went down when I first looked into this!
You also have to consider that the added tension on lowering the tailpiece can and will over time depending on bridge material and construction will weaken your bridge and basically fail. So the radius flattens out. Thus buzzing strings. I’ve replaced more than I can count from people who take the tailpiece to the face. I’m retired now but spent over 40 years repairing/building guitars. Wrapping your strings over the tailpiece helps but it’s totally subjective.
Excellent reply!!
love it! i got 2 pauls. one i have top wrapped so i can have the stop tail all the way down. the other is thru so i keep a small gap between the string and back of the bridge. it works for me and i don't over think it. otherwise i'd be spending all my time trying to set things up (chasing my own tail) and not playing and enjoying myself. i think once you hit a certain angle it's just not gonna matter all that much anyway.
I raise all of my stop bars and it's never a problem for me. The slinky feel of a raised bar is so good.
I bought a used SG. When I got it, the tail piece was all the way down. I raised it when I set it up for me. I didn't notice any effect on the sustain, but it did make a big difference in the feel of the strings.
It gets it feeling slinky.
100% solid advice in this video! I raised my stop bar to keep the strings off the bridge and did not notice a sustain reduction. It’s a Les Paul, it just sings like that naturally, almost like those notes ring out effortlessly. I do love the reduced tension with the stop bar raised, too.
So a while back, I swapped out the bridge on my tele to one that is top loading. I did this for no other reason than it's less frustrating to change strings than stringing it through the body. There are people who think I'm crazy for doing this because the strings don't have as close of a connection to the wood and my sustain will suffer. I've never noticed a single difference in the way my guitar sounds, sustains, or even feels. This stuff is all in people's heads.
Thinking Page's tele was a top loader. Guess he didn't know better?
That’s what I’ve always assumed. I’ve never done any testing, but if your bridge/posts/tailpiece are so loose that they are effectively acting as a damper then you have bigger problems. I’d always assumed so, anyway.
There are no doubt still some things we can do to improve the design of the electric guitar but they are mostly convenience and/or tuning stability things.
We have a corpus of 50-odd years of guitar playing canon and 99.9999% of that was created with the design and design flaws we currently have. Even if it’s ‘wrong’ I don’t want it to be right! I want to innovate in my songwriting and sound design, I’m pretty happy with the guitar as it is. Mostly.
At one time guitars with a tailpiece use to come with an owners manual. The manual explained the tailpiece and why one would adjust it. If one wanted a slinkier feel or less tension on the strings then one would raise the tailpiece. If one wanted more string tension (less slinkiness) one would lower the tailpiece. The manual also explained this engineering concept and the physics behind this. I believe the guitar was an Ibanez with a tailpiece that came with this manual. In recent years (last twenty years or so) I never see this manual with guitars with tailpieces. I find that most people dont know what the purpose of the tailpiece is for.
Longest sustaining guitar I have, is a kit guitar from Solo, the Jem kit. So It has a multi piece Ash body with a Canadian Rock Maple neck, Rosewood fretboard, Now I basically ditched all the hardware and electronics, and I went with the Gotoh Floyd Licensed bridge Ge1996T I swapped the stock brass block for a Philadelphia luthiers Bell Brass block Installed the oversized Bushings but I made them real tight in the body(I know that can cause problems later but it was a bit of a low cost experiment), I have a Tremolo-No unit installed as well. The frets were bad/poorly done so I pulled them and installed Jumbo Stainless frets. Used Gotoh tuners and the Gotoh Brass locking nut. Electronics - 920D upgraded Jem harness - Dimarzio Evo HSH pickups. I use Elixer 10's(I know technically the system is made for 9's).(It wasn't worth the time or effort put into it TBFH), Also side note, the wood is naked no finish is on it, I was trying to cut down on reflected mechanical energy going from the string to the body with a hardened surface bouncing back and canceling out equal waves of energy thus deadening the string vibration(Its a relative simple concept in physics concerning mechanical energy and was the experiment part of this using a low cost platform hence the cheap solo kit) I recommend doing the experiment just for understanding a bit about how mechanical energy and cancelation works just don't go overboard on expense there are cheaper ways. Its a very similar concept to what active noise cancelation headphones use.
So I don't like playing it, but its because it has too much sustain, like uncontrollable uncomfortable sustain, and the body of the guitar literally vibrates like hell when I pluck the strings in a "Spirited Manner". Its one of my little experiments that I need to learn to tame to play the damn thing or figure out a use case for it or just use a very light touch.
So I completely agree the whole sustain thing is overblown, and or not needed so much, if you need it that badly use a pedal and you hit the nail on the head anyways about the seconds you probably should be around with a decent guitar and good setup.
Also I am not sure are you referring to Ola England and his son and their experiments concerning sustain and neck configuration, I know they did a whole experiment with Neck through vs. Set Neck vs. Bolt on and from what they concluded the neck through has the least sustain that is noticeable, but Set neck and Bolt on is such a negligible difference that it doesn't matter.
Sustained notes and songs, Pink Floyd - The Wall, Gilmour used a bit of gain(Fuzz/Compression/Delay/Modulation/Reverb) with his bends(and vibrato) in Comfortably Numb and some of his background notes on the album seem like just 1 or two note plucks in the background in some songs that are just sustained for a long period of time as tonal filler behind some of Waters acoustic Playing or between drum patterns.
I added more tone and more sustain by practicing more ;)
Great information! Thanks, Dylan.
"Need a guitar that sustains for 30 seconds, man" but only shreds blizzards of notes that last microseconds.
I changed my original tuneomatic bridge for a Schaller roller bridge on my 78 LP Std mainly for string breakage and intonation issues. But because the pegs going in the body are thicker I did notice a more solid sustain. It's the only mod I've ever done on the guitar. I would like locking tuners but just haven't done it yet.
according to bonnamassa's tech the tailpiece should be just high enough that the strings don't touch the bridge. seems to work for me.
If it's good enough for Joe Bonomassa, it's good enough for me.
@@donbishop6994 he does own a couple les pauls.
He ain’t Jesus, to each his own
are you sure?😁@@kcsvantasticvoyages9729
I don't care what he does, I like the angle at the bridge the same as at the nut, so quite shallow, but not TOO shallow! I like resting my hand on the raised stop bar sometimes (not the strings), and don't like the feel of top-wrapping, which I always assumed was a myth passed-down from those dope smoking UK guitar players...to dope smoking USA guitar players!
One thing worth mentioning is if you lock down your tailpiece to the body, it will eventually collapse the bridge and not match the radius of the fretboard anymore. That will make it play much worse.
And cost a person money.
Does the Nashville collapse? I thought that was an ABR-1 issue.
I’ve always kept my tailpieces high, and my 32yo Les Paul Standard has a $20 Gotoh bridge on it because the saddles have further travel than the Gibson bridge and it enables me to intonate my guitar better.
The topic of sustain came up a few months back in a live chat and I went down a rabbit hole searching the scientific literature on the topic. Unfortunately, I didn't retain the links, but, the guitar string vibrating is a fluid dynamics problem. Once the bridge is stable enough to not move under the string vibration then the next largest component affecting sustain is air resistance followed by the magnetic force on the strings. That leads me to believe then that there is a theoretical maximum, based on the cross sectional area of any given string, that will determine how long it can sustain.
I agree with most of this, but i disagree about why sustain is important. For me its not about getting a note that can ring out longer. When a guitar has good sustain, the string is transferring energy more efficiently so it rings longer, but the important thing is that its also ringing out stronger and more healthily. Its been my experience anyway, that when a guitar has poor sustain it also has a weak and muddy sound. So having a guitar with 10 or 12 seconds of audible sustain is usualy also going to be a guitar with a clear and lively charm. Just my experience.
I've got a LP Type guitar (V100) with ABR1 bridge. I wanted to lift the tailpiece but not use over wrap, so put washers onto the bolt then screwed down the bolt with the string holder (of tailipiece) on top. This resulted in the right height I wanted but also a great solid connection with the guitar body. Never come across anyone else doing this yet, but it's great.
Note it was a standard LP Tailpiece. All best.
I was thinking about the exact same thing using some shims or washers on there and tighten them.
Using an ABR-1 bridge and tailpiece, so long as the posts are properly installed on the body, so long as all pieces are touching (or in battery, if you will) there should be no difference in sustain, short of changing the type of bridge. You can correct me if I am wrong.
Sadly, I built a ES-335 kit and accidentally didn't level the set neck before the glue took hold (long story), and had to set the bridge and tailpiece (ABR-1) near the high end of the mounting posts. I have not noticed any difference in sustain between this handsome axe and my Les Paul, or another ES-335 I built that didn't have this issue.
After setting up many many many Les Paul types the typical method of low enough to just clear the edge of the bridge works well 99% of the time.
Yes, raising the tailpiece will not reduce recordable audio sustain. But the guitarist can fill more vibration transmitted through the body and neck of the guitar when the tailpiece is screwed down tight to the body. You get a feedback response from the guitar through your hands; it really helps you to bond with a guitar. It's almost like you can feel the music more. Some of my guitars, the tailpiece can be lowered without resting on the bridge. The other guitars I have had to do a string over ramp. Another benefit of ramping the strings over the bridge is that the strings are more slinky and easier to do bends.
If you have the tail piece all the way down to where it hits the back of the bridge it makes a ping sound that’s in your tone while you were playing raise it up just enough to wear. It does not touch. You will still get a ping sound naturally if you scrape across it with your pic, you can hear it, but there’s more of a ping sound when it lays down onto the bridge which will bleed into your tone.
Lifting the tailpeice on my Eastman T386 corrected uneven string tension, sitar style resonance and poor clarity in fretted notes higher than the 14th. Instantly, as 3 strings were previously touching the rear of the bridge. Brilliant
I prefere the feel (under my right hand) and look of a fully lowered tailpiece, so I always top wrapped my TOM guitars to reduce string break angle, but sustain was never an issue for me
Same here, I love the way that setup feels though I can’t say it makes any sound difference.
12:40 - the amplified signal coming from the speaker can add to the sustain also. Get that loop gain up enough via volume and/or compression/distortion, and the sustain can become infinite. Carlos does it all the time. How long was that one note in Europa? Couple minutes? I also did it back in the gigging days. I could literally feel the way the guitar responded and find the spots that would work, and got really good at doing stuff like leaning one way or the other to change harmonics. Also got good at mimicking back-masked (backward recorded) guitar live. Sometimes I'd find someone in the crowd who understood what backmasked guitar was and would go all "Nipper dog" while watching me do it live, without flipping time around.... :D
Some also claim the guitar has to be heavy to sustain fully, which, IMHO, is a load of manure. The guitar has to be STIFF, to keep from absorbing energy from the strings. I have a PRS 245 SE that is really light mahogany, but is super resonant and has amazing punch. $650 several years ago. Better than my LP Studio, which I subsequently sold to finance other guitar stuff....
Thanks for the info. Been going down this rabbit hole, not so much due to sustain about about playability/ slinkiness of the strings. I have played USA standards for a long time and recently for a custom shop LP. Despite having the same gauge strings and a nice action I noticed the stings (particularly the low E, A,D) feel stiffer, like I’m using heavier stings. I was wondering if raising the tail piece or top rapping might make the stings feel a bit more slinky. Sounds like it might based on all the comments I’m reading
I wrap the stings over the top and screw the tailpiece all the way down. This does a few good things including lightening the playing feel by reducing string pressure on the bridge saddles, increasing tailpiece connectivity to the body (contact and less screw resonance), and increasing the harmonic quality of the overall sound.
I also use very light gauge strings (.008 sets) to better emphasize the mids and upper-mids, and to ease the overall tension of the guitar and truss rod. Guitars like that and they reward us with better response and feel when we let them relax.
Lol
@@JavierPwns You know, like most people, if someone thinks that I wrote something that is funny, I'm grateful. However...
Are you laughing with me or at me? Did I say something you find funny? Am I a clown to you? Do I amuse you? WTF?
Lol
You might be interested in Billy Gibbons' ZZ Topp "Mexican Lottery" .007 gauge string sets? That I don't think he uses himself? Also - relaxed guitars and ...I'm not supposed to laugh?
Top Wrapped here-But-I purchased the Lightening Bridge which negated the top wrap (check out their website) I tried to "Deck: the tail piece and had some "buzzing".
Yup-raised the tail piece a few turns.
Sure enough, the slinky feel was there as well as no buzzing and sustain.
Really not noticeable to human ears, but just a feel that each one of us, has as guitar players.
In the end, it's all what the individual guitarist hears and more importantly "feels".
it's all about the music!!
raising the tailpiece (or wrapping the strings) lowers the break angle tension and the percieved tension on the strings, which allows them to oscillate more and get a deeper tone. raising = deeper. lower = brighter. pretend you tuned down a full step and played an E chord (the note not the position) it'll sound WAY deeper and heavier than playing an E chord in standard tuning. same thing can be achieved by raising the tailpiece. too much and it doesn't respond well or feel right. same with too low. it's a feel thing.
on my SG I found raising the tailpiece drastically increased sustain, especially if you're not resting your hand behind the bridge. If you rest your hand behind the bridge on the strings it's killing the notes the same way the back of the bridge does when it's touching the strings
okay, now that I watched I do agree with the length of the note/mechanical sustain idea. I do believe that the string hitting the bridge takes away some harmonic overtone of the overall note which is the difference that I may personally hear. Same kinda idea as having a fretwrap behind the nut to take away the extra string noise. Just my theory but there is a massive difference sonically to my ears, although you're right probably not technically "sustain"
If you feel like sustain is lost when raising the tailpiece, just add some metal washers or spacers between the tailpiece studs and guitar body to maintain better coupling.
I know that I live in a simulation! I recently discovered my LP didn’t need a new nut, that the bridge had collapsed, so I bought a new one and was reading about setting up a TOM bridge, and suddenly UA-cam is suggesting new content at the perfect time!
FYI, my tailpiece wasn’t decked; it was set so the strings didn’t touch the bridge, but the bridge collapsed anyway. I raised the tailpiece a bit but was considering top wrapping to lower the tailpiece. Might still try it to see if it changes the sound, because replacing the bridge with one that wasn’t collapsed changed the sound quite a bit
my favorite "sustaining songs" band is Earth, particularly, The Bees Made Honey In The Lions Skull, featuring Bill Frisell. Pretty sustain-y. Not sure of the guitar set up or rig and secondary sustain elements, but I love it!
titanium nut and a standard Strat bridge with a brass trem block seems to clarify the notes but sustain is relatively normal but for amp feedback through sympathetic vibrations. from speakers and strings...
Dylan, thanks for doing this. I have a 2017 Les Paul Tribute model that has to have the tailpiece and bridge lifted, in order to have the proper 5/64" Low E and 3/64" High E setup. It's good to know that I can finally point the naysayers to your video and tell them to piss off once and for all.
Nigel Tufnel played his note at the same time you did, and his is still sustaining.
I raise my tailpiece AND top wrap. My break angle is probably a single millimeter or two. Still get great sustain on both my LPs and setup with 10-46, they bend like 8 gauge strings. I once had a friend who criticized the setup on my Les Paul. Him being such a good musician, I immediately tried to fix it to get it playing better. Only to realize I had it the way I liked it all along. I have an 02 highway one strat with medium high action and I’ve played it for 20 years without a single tweak. Probably why my LP setup is a little higher than most folks like. But who cares. I’m no shredder. Setup a guitar like you want it and forget the haters.
I want the sustain that comes from a loud amp in a large room, but I don't have a large room.
A large room is the number one thing I want to get to enhance my tone.
I grew up playing a black, MIJ Westone Spectrum LX (198-mbk) that resinated so much that I would cough constantly when playing it. I miss it! These days I have 2 Westies but, none compare! I recently picked up a Bullfighter LP style guitar along with 2 other single cuts though, I am not blessed with a Gibson.
I remember years ago trying to sustain that last note of the “Limelight” solo…then I found out Alex was using some kind of effect…yea, I’m an idiot 😳
All les paul players should watch this!! I learned a LOT and saved myself a lot of headaches. Thank you for taking the time to dispel this pain-in-the-butt myth!! I raised my tailpiece years ago, and left it there. In my mind, if the tailpiece is screwed into the body in some form (which they all are), then there's connection between it and the body, and that's good enough for me. Resonance goes a long way, baby!
People seem to have string tension and pressure confused. Nothing you do will change string tension other than changing scale length, or string gauge. Down pressure on bridge will change with tailpiece height. On a 24.75 in scale the tension to make an E note is exactly the same no matter the tailpiece. Now with less down pressure on the bridge the string has more chance to slip in the saddle, is this a good thing, you decide. When you bend a note and the string slips it may give the illusion of less tension but if the string is slipping you have to bend further to achieve the desired note, ultimately reaching the exact same tension of a non slipping string, just one has to be bent further. In the end Tension = Pitch! People need to learn some physics if they are going to make claims about this stuff, (Not meaning Dylan as you do seem to understand it well). Also there is almost no string vibration between bridge and tailpiece so it has mostly 0 effect on anything between bridge and nut.
Totally agree with you, Dylan.
For the purpose of this experiment, strumming precision is good enough and lowering the tailpiece for sustain is useless, you can't hear it anyway.
People have to practice more to play better and stop blaming ghosts for their lack of consistency.
Happened by here while "baked" ... and I was like ... "W o O w! Bro!" (chuckles). Good info. Tks for sharing. BTW, the stop bar screws give you relief on the string tension so you can more easily bend the notes on your fret bar.
I don't think sustain would have changed. I haven't done any official experimentation, but I've tried a side by side comparison playing my Les Paul with the tailpiece flush, and with it raised up a bit (which is how I prefer it), and I didn't notice a difference in sustain. If there was a difference, it was negligible.
Up vs down has pros and cons too, down reduces rattling but increases bridge/saddle wear while
VERY GOOD VID .. THANKS .. I WILL TRY TO SEE IF MY LES PAULS PLAY ANY BETTER WITH THE TAIL PIECE JUST RAISED UP A BIT ..
I put a BABICZ FCH TUNE-O-MATIC (Full Contact Hardware) bridge and tailpiece on my 2018 Gibson Les Paul Tribute (non weight-relieved) guitar and it made a huge difference in sustain IMO.
Another way of doing the test that depends even less on how consistently you pluck is to measure the time between your pick attack initial amplitude and when the signal has decreased to some percentage of that peak. You can measure that easily.
If you aren't breaking strings, no issues are found after that. I am getting ready to do a tune o matic. I found this video very useful. Thanks.
When I have played a Les Paul, I have never worried about sustain. It’s hard to kill if you don’t have fret buzz. Next up, why not evaluate how the string depth in a strat term block affects how stiff the guitar plays?
I've been doing exactly this type of work this week and noticed no appreciable difference in the length of the sustain. I did notice a difference in tone across the strings but then, I'm doing this on an Ibanez with Gibraltar bridge and quick change tailpiece - not my favourites.
It doesn't affect sustain significantly but it has a big effect on tone.
Raising the stopbar kills the mids. You need to test it in a mix. The bigger the break angle, the more you'll be heard in the mix. Same goes for a Tele and Strat. Although on a Strat, you can go beyond what gives any significant gains, you just make the guitar harder to play.
I have an Epi SG-400, I found the saddles are more prone to tipping forward when intonating or changing strings with less break angle over the bridge, the keeper wire does not hold them in place. I have clearance with the tailpiece all the way down so have no need to raise it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Excellent video, thank you Sir! Enjoyed your way of explaining these things a lot!
What about splitting hairs about tonewood? I agree with you. It's much the same about the headstock logos. Are you going to play or stare at the guitar rubbing one's chin as if pondering the thickness of a hair.
maybe its different for each guitar . i top wrapped my strings around the tail piece and lowered it as far as it would go and the sustain lasted much longer. also i measure sustain in a bend not just letting the strings vibrate
Díky za práci kterou děláte.👍Zvedl jsem konec na svém Exploreru a super. Sustain i lepší hratelnost. Udĕlám i na LP. Dĕkuji.🎩🎸
Of all the experiments I have seen, the maximum is 4 or 5 seconds in sustain gain from having the tailpiece all the way down. That is, from loud to completely silent. That's over a time of more than 30 seconds! That's WAY outside of the usable part of sustain in normal use.
You started by explaining that people who say it makes a big difference also say that you can't measure it properly, because you can't pick precise enough. So they negate any argument they could have, because if it's impossible to measure because of the picking, it's absolutely impossible to even notice in playing!
So yes, there is a slight increase if you have it screwed down all the way.
A real reason to have the tailpiece lowered could be that it saves you from 1 setup insecurity. All the way down is ALWAYS all the way down. Can't get it wrong :p
I heard people say that wrap over actually makes the tension on the strings less, so you can bend more easily. Thing is, the tension defines the note! so if you have the same note, you have the same tension :p (using the same string...)
Thanks for explaining and demonstrating ;)
I tried top wrapping once and didn't like the feel when doing bends. Didn't notice any sound differences when playing through my amp.
I’ve been listening to people say that argument about not letting your strings touch the tuneomatic behind the saddles for years, but I cannot see any basis for that causing problems at all. Many Fender Strats and Teles have string trees on the headstock, and they don’t interfere with anything because they are on the outside of the fixed node (the nut). Similarly, anything touching the strings beyond the other fixed node (the bridge saddles) should not affect anything either. The whole argument just makes no sense at all from the point of view of the physics.
I can't say. What I've noticed a couple of times is a string just "not sitting in" with the rest, using a cigarette paper to see if it's on the back of the bridge and adjusting it to stop it doing it. Which..........works. Seen this several times.
I am a guitar tech and I have to agree with everything said here, in fact I would go further the biggest impact on tone and sustain is you! I know its a cliche, but the saying 'its all in your fingers' is very true. Sure, you need a properly setup guitar but your technique and style is the biggest influencing factor. A graphic EQ pedal is then all you need to fine tune things and then just go and play.
I have a Gibson les Paul tribute.
The tailpiece is cranked as HIGH as she goes. The strings still cut HARD into the rear edge of the bridge between the bridge and tailpiece.
My tech says the neck angle is wrong.
Dunno but tailpiece needs to be JACKED up and the strings need to be too wrapped or they rub. Hard.
Sustain seems the same as my SG though?
Cheers.
Good video
If the neck angle is bad enough that it can't be properly set up, I'd be getting it touch with Gibson to see if they'd replace it.
@@ConvexSpade I'd do that too.
I've never really consider sustain with the tailpiece. I raise/lower for tension. To slinky and I pull notes outta tune. I play better if I fight it a little so I like more tension than a lot of people.
Well firstly, I'm not much of a "how much sustain it has" kind of guy. If there is one thing I pay attention (be it a myth, or truth) is whether the guitar is loud unplugged.
There's ways to get more sustain if needed.
That said, I believe they made that tailpiece that way, so you can set a proper strings break angle over the bridge. As long as there is enough, you will not lose any sustain. Too much of it might be bad for the bridge.
I wasn't aware people were buying narrower bridges, so they could have the tailpiece all the way down. That is particularly stupid... do they prefer high sustain over an intonated guitar?
I’ve heard the same issue come up with string-through vs. top-loading bridges. I’m not sure if there is much of a difference there either.
I love these debates. Scientific 'proof' required that decking the bridge helps sustain by 0.4 seconds. Its fun and entertaining, after all that's why I'm here, but i must admit when i watch an 'A' list rock band playing in a stadium pumping out 100trillion watts deafening 85000 people, I've never felt the urge to hunt down 'Eric Clapton' or 'Slash' to demand why the solo on 'Egomaniac' lasted 0.4 seconds too short. And by the way 'Mr Knopfler' Your guitar tone is sh*t because its made of 'Brazindian Balsa Ash'!
Love Your work Dylan, you explain things people like me can understand! Thanks.
The longest single sustained guitar note that I'm instantly aware of is by Jeff Beck, in a song called 'The Nazz are Blue'. It lasts 12-13 seconds but it's fair to suggest that he was, at least, overdriving the amp and using vibrato and bends to help it along. Otherwise, I'm sure that there's some digital trickery that can make a note sustain indefinitely.
Old-style electric guitarists like Jeff Beck, Peter Green, Gary Moore, used to find the 'sweet spot' in front of the amp where the strings would resonate with the output of the amp, causing almost limitless sustain. It's an old trick.
Right that’s it, supposedly one of the longest sustaining notes in rock ‘n’ roll and that one note encompassed the entire solo for the song. I think there’s a whole backstory on it too as I think he looked at his manager in spite and unleashed this one note and played no more.
@@DelMarVAdave Check out the solo to Santana's song Taboo.
Old vid but a good one... So my question is, just how much tension (how close to the body) at that tail piece point is enough to give you good enough sustain from the instrument itself?
Dylan thanks for your common sense approach to playing guitar and cutting through the b.s.,yes we need to play for the fun of it. On another note your comment on cv jazzmasters last week sealed the deal . I bought one and love it thanks! 👍☮️
I just raised the bridge because of this video. It looked to be down to tight on low E. No real noticeable difference. Agree, rather not ruin the tuneamatic part than worry about that quarter of a second loss of sustain. The average listener won’t are or notice. No buzz noticed either!
My stop tailpiece is very high on my 335, so the feel of bending is much easier. I read , it would take away sustain, but i never ever thought , it kills sustain.
Need more sustain than usual 7-10 seconds? Use amp feedback or even install sustainer pickup to have infinite sustain.
Any issue with buzzing on G string particularly if raising the tailpiece?
if the angle is weak on the roller or saddle, and it is hitting the back of the bridge, you could effect intonation
This was extremely helpful. I just started working on guitars and basses a few months ago. I've worked on plenty of fenders and tremolo style bridges, I got those down good. A friend had a beat up ibanez gio with his style bridge and I've seen so much saying to slam it to the body, but the logical mechanical part of my brain told me it doesn't make sense. Like you said in the beginning of the video, there's a slot for a screwdriver for a reason.
The first two les pauls I owned I kept my tail piece down. Then I bought a supreme and took it to a luthier. He set it up and when I got it back I was like. Wtf, you aren't supposed to do that. And he goes...dude with the way that guitar is that's the only way to nail the proper tension, neck relief, remove buzzing, and keep your strings off your bridge. It played so much better I literally went back and set up all my les pauls with raised tail pieces. It hasn't ruined the sustain at all and they all Olay better.
I slam my tail piece to the body(just in case, I've been told it sounds better), then wrap the strings around like a Jr. It's my guitar. I'll do what I want. And it looks cool. It doesn't have all that pull from the strings to loosen the inserts. And doing the wrap around method is the perfect break angle for easier playing. So there is a reason, physics. Did i mention it looks cool.
Seriously, it seems to play and sound better.
@maidenthe80sla
Why the hate?
I do this because it's easier to bend the strings. Otherwise, I could care less. Is that ok with you? And it sounds better, easier to play. There's always a classless comit.
5:13 For an electric guitar, sustain that matters comes from feedback or compression (whether from a compression effect or saturation). Given that, I’m saying that it won’t have an appreciable effect…for my definition of appreciable. 🙂
i almost bought a
BC Rich
' quadmatic '
bridge -
awhile back,
but the material for the saddles
seemed too
zinc - ish
they are not abundant available to purchase very often tho'
Nice work. Another thing to consider, isn't raising the bar doing the same as a wrap around? Easier action?!
Love your stuff bud!! Ill buy your test with a fixed bridge, what about a trem? Brass blocks, other material blocks and beefyness? Really loved your "tone wood" vid👍 that guy did a killer deep dive,WOW
A fretted note will always "sustain" less than a open string note on EVERY guitar no matter the height of the stop bar or bridge. Is something "wrong" with the guitar or its "set up"? No, this is how the instrument "works" and it "works" this way with every guitar no matter how different they may be or if they are the exact same models. You can make all the "adjustments" you want and it will NEVER change that fact. This is why when folks fret a single note, they try and use vibrato to "extend" the sustain because if they just hit the note, it will ALWAYS fade away faster than an unfretted note, again, its the nature of how the instrument is. You can get "harmonic/overtone sustain" with an amp to extend the sound of the fretted note by stepping close to or facing the amp your playing out of, but if you using "software" to get your sound, it wont matter, youll get the same results, a fretted note with LESS sustain always.
Every time i see these "sustain" videos, it's always an "open string" being "tested" for a reason, it'll last longer but in reality, it's impractical in a playing situation unless you play songs that ONLY deal with open strings and unfretted notes. Are their any? If you want "infinite sustain everywhere", get an ebow or sustainiac and quit worrying about your tail piece or bridge height.
Only effects tension on bends not sustain that's effected by string length and gauge
According to Leo Fender the loss of sustain is do to slamming the chords or bending strings as both allow the strings to move away from it's resting point over the saddle. Downward pressure keeps it from sliding. Hence the hardest break over the saddle is best. The ultimate break he felt is strings through body. He also said his original Strat style saddles gives the best sustain because they are a flat piece of steel that literally spreads out and digs in so they too can never break the contact by sliding. According to Trev Wilkinson who worked with Leo for a couple years as an unpaid apprentice Leo is right. He also said that he makes every type of saddle and bridge as he can not afford to lose biz because thousands will hang onto their myths. So I adopted all the above Leo principles years ago and if nothing I have never had any negative issues. It ain't broke so I am not going to fix it, LOL
Shawn Tubbs feels he can hear a noticeably better tone from the old bent steel saddles ??? Maybe ???
@Paul_Leonard_Ewing Good information. However, I do want to point out that there is a significant difference between the Fender bridge design whether the Fender uses strat bent steel or block saddles or telecaster type saddles (barrel shaped) and the Tune-O-Matic bridge design in regards to the break angle. On the Fender (even with string through body) where it might appear to be close to a 90 degree angle the saddles themselves are shaped to provide a proper string break angle where as the drop off point on a tune-o-matic can actually be a very steep break angle due to the design of the saddles. The Gibson saddles were intentionally designed the way so that they are able to provide as much intonation range as possible across the narrow bridge. And this is why Gibson in it's tune-o-matic bridge design made the stop bar tail piece adjustable so that proper break angle could be achieved across the saddles by adjusting the stop bar up or down as needed, which Dylan correctly pointed out at the beginning of the video when he showed that the stop bar tail piece has "height" adjustment screws.
Thanks Dylan! I keep telling my girlfriend that nothing bad will happen if she raises her tailpiece! ((-;)
Hey Dylan ! Sorry to bug .. but I’m currently in the market to upgrade my pickups and wiring electronics on my 335 style guitar… Since your name is DYLANTALKSTONE and I’m aware of your contribution in the market…(your pickups)….. and I was just hoping for some non bias guided info / input …. I really wanna get that same Jimmy page wiring you installed on that epiphone in that video… but have my eyes on other pick ups (mojotone 59 low output) … in your video you talk about how there’s no volume drop AT ALL and I’m aware you pick ups are wax Potted and the ones I’m looking at aren’t … is that gonna affect the volume or is that volume drop caused by something else?? Cheers thank you
At 5:13. I think it will have no effect on sustain. Just like wrapping the tailpiece has no effect on sustain.
I raised the stop tail to ease the string tension and slightly lowers string action
I have an SG and Les Paul. My tailpieces are raised and I get great sustain.
i don't care about sustain, if you don't have a proper amount on tension, too little and you can't pick quickly because the strings are flopping all over and also you 'll have a lot of fret buzz, which you can really reduce with tail piece down enough, it can really help you keep the string height down
The best answer is simple and costs nothing - top wrap! It's not about sustain - the main reason for me was I stopped breaking strings. Also it feels way better and strings are easier to bend which can let you switch to a higher string gauge if wanted. It's also good for preventing bridge collapse which happens a lot ABR1 type bridges
There is simply no downside to top-wrapping, other than wear marks which I don't care about.
do that with an Abr bridge and you'll run into trouble, not because it won't sustain but it will wobble.
If you're worried about it, use washers
"your just being a troll"
... maybe... but don't Trolls...live under the bridge?
Sustain is one aspect but does it change the tone (sound)?
Raising it up allows you to do string bends. With it way down the strings are stiffer than heck