The ABSOLUTE BEST and WORST Experience - Living World Season 4
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- Living World Season 4 is now complete - the last Living World we'll see and one that seems to be considered the best. In spite of that Mike has some strong opinions on the writing and gameplay of this season. Lets go.
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00:00 - Intro
00:53 - Living World Season 4
01:54 - The World
06:26 - Story - King Palawa Ignacious Joko
10:58 - Dumb writing decisions
16:11 - Kralkatorrik & Aurene
23:03 - Conclusion - Ігри
Mike has finally finished Living World Season 4, meaning he has now done the last Living World - one that often is called the best they've ever made. Personally, Mike has a lot to say about both the amazing and the terrible parts of this season so strap in. Let us know, are you happy or sad to see the end of Living World seasons?
FYI, The Icebrood Saga IS Living Word Season 5 (and yes it's the final living world). They just didn't like the "season" naming as it's making it seem like it's a temporary thing (like battle pass "Seasons").
I was there for the all the releases of LWS4 and the waiting inbetween them. My 2 favorite moments are the death of Joko, and the resurrection of Aurene. I know you have issue with the latter so I'll elaborate: I do get that if it was 5 min apart between death and renewal, that can probably be a bit crap, but waiting those months, not knowing what would happen, having forgotten that she'd eaten a Lich and might have his powers, I was totally thrilled when they brought her back this way. I could see the storytelling ark, how in her eating Joko all those months back they had planned and prepared for this moment. To me it was like a cat's cradle being pulled to completion and I was laughing right along with Braham: "Praise Joko!" I see your point about it undermining stakes, but this isn't a Timeless Child moment, I see it as a viable exception to the rule because we all saw how invincible Joko was.
My favorite moment though is the death of Joko. The despair of his unbeatability was sinking in, marinating in my soul, I was just about to throw my hands in the air cause he was just OP and just "what could we possibly Do to stop him?!" ... and then, like lightning, it got reversed and it was absolutely the greatest Punch The Sky moment of the entire game for me.
As for Gameplay, the greatest map in the game is the 3rd one of IBS, but you'll be there soon, so have fun!!
@@R_SENALI agree 👍
To be fair, I think Braham gets more hate than he deserves. Yeah, he was a complete jerk and his negligency almost kills Rox? yes. He treated the commander undeservingly in an awful way? yes. But what many people leave out is that noone says a word about Eir. If Braham grew up in a F'ed up way, Eir has a big role in her being absent and raising him up to not be a jackass. Maybe is the Norn way to abandon everything and everyone in order to "forge your own legend", still, his father stucked with him regardless. If Braham sucks, Eir sucks too, in my opinion.
You gonna try GW1 too?
For Joko his evilness was all over the environmental storytelling in PoF.
He is missing the majority of the lore and a lot of the worldbuilding because he's going through content at a pace and while streaming to and engaging with about 2k viewers. You can't fault him for that, but I do wonder how his opinions would change if he played off-stream and let the content breathe before moving on to the next bit.
@@khymaaren preach literally miss the pile of bones in the bone palace in the Desolation
@@khymaaren tbh we had to let it breathe because of the big gaps in content releases :P
@@emikochan13 Yeah, well, that's just the way it is. My point is, that GW2 is a game where the story actually benefits from not rushing through it. Mike made a point of this exact thing during his time in HoT, where he realized that doing only the story would have him miss the majority of the expansion's content. The "problem" is that this is true for the whole game, including every single LW episode, especially Season 4, where each map has tons of events that compliment what is happening in the story there.
Preach just isn't paying enough attention to catch on to anything that isn't a major story beat like aurene dying and coming back. If you watch the streams, it's full of TTS spam during story and talking about random shit while relevant dialogue expositing the details is happening. I wouldn't expect any groundbreaking takes in regards to the story, he just simply isnt paying enough attention to give them. His opinion on the combat / setpieces is all I really look to from his stream and videos.
He recommends the game and that's good enough for me, even if I find the tts during story annoying
I really don't think the two story "blunder" examples are all that blundery. In Gorrik's trial in Amnoon it's clear that he only get's released because you, the hero of Amnoon, vouch for him, even if you argue the lack of evidence route.
Councilor Mayameen: Given the lack of concrete evidence, and given your willingness to vouch for his character... The court hereby orders Gorrik released. I hope you know what you're doing, Commander."
And finding the Braham and Eir exchange weird is.... weird to me. Yes, they are indeed mother and son, but we're talking about Eir, who abandoned her son soon after birth to persue her own legend and even 16 years later after meeting him again uses every opportunity to keep her distance and to tell him that she wouldn't have been a good mother anyway. Sure, they start to grow a tiny bit closer shortly before Eir dies, but their exchange here when she comes back as a ghost for a little bit is really norn and really in character for her.
Braham Eirsson: I'm not asking to change the past. I just, seeing you now... Is it really too late for us?
Eir: Yes, Braham. It's too late. I'm dead. And anyway, I could never have been the family you needed. But don't you see?
Eir: You have that family. These people love you. They will grow your legend...if you'll just stop trying to drive them away.
Braham Eirsson: But...
Eir: And yet, they're still here. Look at that... Let me go, Son. Live your life.
This is Eir's attempt to give Braham closure, it's really not a "haha let's laugh at Braham"-moment at all. Eir's whole character arc in the base game is about learning not to dwell in the past and to appreciate your found family, so now she tries to impart that to Braham in her pragmatic, not really emotionally adept way.
Yeah I think he missed the mark.
To support the Eir part a bit more, I think it's really a Norn culture. Norn don't care about mother-son bonds. Not as we humans perceive it. They only care about making a legend of themselves, solo. That's why Eir left Braham. In Norn culture she was not being a bad mother, she was doind exactly what they are incentivized to do. I do think ArenaNet did a poor job in the base game and early Norn story to showcase that Norn culture. But it gets very evident if people read interviews and all the lore about the Norn. When Eir sees Braham in this scene she wants him to get closure and move on. There's not further sentimentality, because that's their culture.
also about Gorrick in prison, i dont know if im remembering this badly or not, but dont they detain him because he was boasting about having a beetle (the mount beetle) and raising it UNDER his skin? and the guards take him in because of that? Thats why us as the commander vouch for gorrick, because that beetle is being raised by us XD
I totally agree. Her being like let's talk my son would have broken her character, the representation of Norns and even the journey of Braham and how he managed to deal with this.
Seeing her ghost also was a fun nudge to the past story imo, also a nice callback if you read the book and learned about snaff
100%
The Aurene thing really is a weird one, because if you played it live, there's a few months in between where we just think she's dead. But playing it now it's just an instant thing that feels super rushed. I think they should have thought ahead and had a full episode between just to mitigate that problem.
To be honest, even when it released, everyone was like ??? Wut ???
@@aitharel3009 Yeah I still am not a fan of it, but playing them back to back in the current day seems a lot worse. The revival should have also been a lot more deliberate and/or drawn out as well. The fact that it was just "huh I feel something. Maybe we should take those skewers out..." felt super cheap. Aurene should have revived like "why the fuck did you leave me impaled like that for 3 months?!
There are still so many people who will just accept the "It's lich magic!" explanation and I'm still furious they didn't use glints actual skill from GW1 - Crystal Hibernation. They had the answer. They just didn't know their own lore. In GW1 we have the ability to "kill" glint in a bonus objective. She "dies", or at least is defeated, but obviously she continues on to GW2 prehistory leading up to just before the game's story starts at the dissolution of Destiny's Edge.
Laziness and a lack of self-referential material.
@@zenith110 Not wanting to use the same thing again can be an intentional choice of not wanting to redo it though. You're making a lot of assumptions and assertions to say the only reason it didn't happen that way was laziness and not knowing the game lol. Lich magic could have been fine if they didn't do it in such a fast and trivializing manor. That's the main problem. She either should have stayed dead, or they should have had a much bigger and longer plan for reviving her.
@@zenith110 PRAISE JOKOO
They *really* needed to put a chapter in before Aurene's ascension. It kinda works with the six month release timing. It definitely doesn't work for players who play those chapters back to back.
yeah, time-gating the chapters is not an option, obviously, but sometimes it disrupts the pacing of the story unfortunately...not only for this part, but it's a perfect example: having some additional story in between would probably been better
@@MusPuiDiTe maybe visualizing the Requiem stories about how the characters deal with Aurene's death would be great. Getting few voice actors for a session and for a cinematic it wouldn't even need to be fancy, just Caithe, Zafirah, Rytlock explaining how the feel with their friends sitting near Aurene.
@@michram There are stories like these, or at least there were on their website as we waited. Rytlock was moved the most by her death. He started thinking about his own cub and family.
@@mareksimon1220I think they were referring to those stories, specifically saying it should have been done in game
I played the living season as it had come out, and I will never forget getting out of that cutscene with Aurene's death and seeing map chat absolutely packed with distraught players who were outright saying they were bawling their eyes out and were dying to know what happens next. I stayed in the map chat for like 2 hours just watching people pop out and chatting; it was beautiful but we were all just utterly beaten down by it.
And then the Dragonfall map came and, same kind of deal? map chat was alive. Very alive. With... comments.. about... how... that story beat with Aurene's return was as bad as Game of Thrones S8 lol.
I see a few other comments about the wait we had to do and I do think it's an important part of playing a 'living story' like FFXIV making you wait for those story beats and such and the impact REALLY suffers when you're doing it back-to-back catching up but my god I cannot put into words enough how much people were livid about the next part after her death. I don't think I saw a single person praising that story decision, and everyone was confused as to why she was suddenly talking too? there was definitely talk of Joko being munched being part of a potential return but for her to literally just poof herself and be like "i'm fine now let's go :D" was terrible.
yeah the talking part was really strange, especially since we just established caithe as her new voice. also in retrospect with the icebrood saga it would have been a nice contrast to the enslaved voice of jormag.
Could be wrong but ain’t that final decision tied to ANet considering putting GW2 into like a freeze state while they worked on another title?
Well, then here's one person at least lol. I was very happy she wasn't gone. I had in fact been hoping for it. I also don't believe revivals always belittle deaths. It does have to be done very well and only works in certain instances though (in which I don't believe this is one. Though the wait helped it be better. Alas only a few had to have that wait). I just liked the character enough to not care.
On the voice part... yeah it felt kinda weird. But it wasn't unprecendented because other dragons talk lol. What disappointed me about it was exactly what you noted: Caithe was JUST her voice. It felt unique and magical, and then they took that away. Would've been cooler if they kept that I think, though I still didn't mind all that much 🤷
The resurrection of Aurene might seem a bit far-fetched for someone who could just play all the episodes one after the other without interruption.... But for those who had to wait for MONTHS to know what was coming next, it was agonizing.
I remember crying so hard and being so pissed off by her death that i just alt+f4 the game and i could barely play it until they teased the next episode. Yeah, that's how deep i felt involved in the story XD
To be fair it was omega obvious and foreshadowed what was going to happen, which was her coming back alive. Even the "trial" from Glint was telling her that she has to get over the fear of dying, even Kralky mentions later on that "an elder dragon fears nothing, not even -death-" which also somewhat foreshadowed already that once Aurene is capable of getting over the fear of death she is kind of "ready" partially to become an elder dragon, because they aren't supposed to be afraid of death. Bit far fetched, but once you go through it some of the things make sense eventually. Problem is, Anet likes to hint and foreshadow with very tiny meaningless things that people really easily skim or skip through or ignore.
@@NoxxiTheNoxxian yeah, when she died that was also the first thing i thought about. I knew that they would bring her back since she ate joko and since the dragons take on characteristics of the previous dragon that died, it would be only reasonable that eating a powerful entity that can revive itself, would give that power to aurene.
the story still left me emotional though since it was so well executed and i still hoped they would at least wait an episode or two to bring her back, or even not go that route and don't bring her back... sadly anet most of the time only really kills of characters that are not really mayor, or have been mostly left in the past. last ones were smodur, almorra, before that eir. but never really a direct companion.
And I agree with taimi. That story doesn't seem to much go anywhere. it's mentioned a few times and then never really brought up again. Maybe that is a bit harsh, but it has a bit of "the room" vibes, where they talk about breast cancer and noone really reacts to it. You don't just drop that big bomb about her illness and never bring it up again, or only a few times. maybe mention something in the story when taimi is absent, why she currently is not there, since she usually always talks to us over coms.
There are a lot of these things that anet could really improve if they would get more mature with their story telling.
It's still bad story writing that relies on just a cliffhanger and ppl discussing it on Reddit. It's for clout. Nothing was done to earn her coming back, she just magically resurrected and that's it.
Well Aurene did eat Joko and gained his "I can't die" ability. So as long as Aurene doesn't get eaten...
This is a shitty excuse. This is how it is now in the game, this is how it will forever more be in the game.
I know it doesn't excuse the story beat as it is now but when Aurene died we waited six months for the next chapter to drop. There were six months of map chat and city chat/discord/social media conversations of 'oh my god what happens now' the sense of relief on the next chapter was a palpable thing. The game hadn't been in the best place around that time and when you hit the end of Living world season 4 you'll notice the final cut scene is like a movie ending. There were a lot of rumours it had been written that way because the plug/funding was getting pulled by NCSoft and everyone was about to pick up and go home. (I'm not saying it was true but we were still in the 'best game no one is playing' articles in magazines at that point. Which if you were part of the engaged player base left you with 'what am I chopped liver?' )
if i remember correctly, it was 3 months, which was the usual interval for living world story releases at the time. still a long time to speculate.
If i remember correctly the title for the episode "All or nothing" is both a reference to the story and the ongoing uncertainty at Anet during this time as the devs were not sure if the game was going to keep going beyond this season. I think it was tom abernathy on a podcast that brought this up.
Aurene's death wasn't as much of a bait and switch as it seems if you consider two key points: the first is Joko's immortality, which is explained further through lore and event banter, and which is constantly emphasized throughout this story arc. The second is Aurene's unique ability to absorb the magic (and thus, the abilities to some degree) of others. Given that part of Joko's unique magic is his ability to fully resurrect himself, it makes perfect sense that said ability would be passed on to Aurene. It does cheapen the emotional impact of Aurene's death, yes, but as you mention earlier in the video, the genre is rife with cases of prominent/"NPC main" characters being effectively incapable of dying because they will inevitably be resurrected or allowed to interact with us by some arcane, ad hoc means. It absolutely destroys the immersion of those players who are aware of the trope, but I assume that the goal is, like with Savathun in Destiny or Illidan in WoW post-BC, to leave players the ability to speculate on whether the death was "real".
If what was meant, however, was just that her revival shouldn't have happened the exact second after the fight in game time, then the above is largely irrelevant; they would undoubtedly have been better served by leaving Aurene's revival as a surprise at the end of the following chapter, not a combat res while Kralkatorrik is still playing his death animation.
Not to mention, the story from ALL the way back in HoT, and PoF, that Aurene is Destined to save the world, Yet her mothers powers passed on shows she sees her own death.... Saves the World and yet Dies.... Foreshadowing!
I recently played through S4 with my 9 year old daughter. Since the very first time Aurene is introduced, or maybe even since we placed the egg in the care of the Exalted in Tarir, she's been EXTREMELY invested in that little dragon. She's wanted all the Aurene stuff she could get her hands on, minis, tonics, skins, any and all of it. She's used the S3 item go to back into that instance and play with baby Aurene, countless times, and any episodes we got to acutally interact with Aurene, she wanted to replay over and over again.
Now I knew what was coming at the end of Ep 5, as it's not my first time around, and I know my daughter. I was prepared for her reaction, and she was completely devastated, bawling her little eyes out. And I can tell you, that if we hadn't almost immediately followed up with the beginning of Ep 6, it would have broken her.
So, while I as an adult player can see it from your point of view, I'm still glad it played out the way it did. Because that means that I can still keep playing through the GW2 storyline with my daughter 🙂
Maybe it’s just me, but the Aurene death and revival was INCREDIBLE live. The excitement, the theorizing, the sadness? It was all worth it for her revival, making it feel like a stellar payoff three months later. Can’t even begin to imagine how weird it feels right away.
To be fair the resurrection was very well set up with Aurene eating Joko. The events make perfect sense. For me the whole season worked really well. I do not think there was ever an event happening not set up properly.
Also the Ghost thing makes sense. This is how ghosts works in lore and also Eir's behavior is how the Norn society works. I think you are missing some basic lore details that leads you do miss-interpret the events of this part as a joke. It is not. It is written earnestly and taken earnestly by most.
Regardless of it making sense. You devalue emotional scenes of characters dying if you just bring them back 30 seconds later. I think thats the point Mike was trying to get across. This is why so many people like Game of Thrones in the early seasons. It was so refreshing to get a story where they would actually kill off key figures. No one felt safe.
@@Subvaries another artifact of playing catch up. For preach it was 30 seconds, for players at the time it was a massive cliffhanger that lasted months.
AN also booked themselves into a corner. Aurene is the macguffin that's needed to safely kill the elder dragons. If she doesn't absorb their power it would tear reality apart. Stupid? Yes, but that's the story they wrote.
Such is the problem with playing a sequel game and having never experienced the original.
It really wasn't. First off why would eating Joko even work if he's immortal ... like he didn't "die" in worse ways before. Secondly why would it make her immortal.
And thirdly, most importantly and probably the problem Mike has with this as well (I'm speculating since he pretty much had the same reaction I had), it's bad writing. I didn't particularly like the story before (or Aurene for that matter) and when that moment came I was actually invested for once and yes ... felt some loss. Just to have it pulled away in the next chapter with 2nd grade writing.
@@theStamax Aurene's special attribute is absorbing and filtering magic. Joko's included. By consuming him Joko lost his ability to resurrect and Aurene took it for herself.
The 3 months we had to wait between wondering if Aurene was actually dead or not actually did work back then, it sucks that alot of people nit pick at it now because its just one episode right into the other
Yes! here we go!
edit: im sorry i disagree with you on Aurene. They set it up how she could come back, and waiting months was agony for the next chapter. How do you fight the bigger than deathwing dragon without someone like Aurene? Having people come back is not a bad thing, but i do admit having it done too often, without explanation, and in rapid sucession (if you get to play it back to back) can be problemsome. Wanting every interaction to have lasting consequences goes against the power of fantasy.
this... and gw2 has not done that a lot (i mean ghost are like a thing in gw2 especially considering revenant exist) so they do not really count in my opinion...
I do get it though. Going from one chapter to the next is whiplash. I think they could've done more to "earn" the moment of Aurene's resurection instead of just doing it immediately. And I understand that this is something that feels a lot more earned if you were there, and you didn't get her right back after she died, but for content that's in the game permanently, you HAVE to spend a little bit of time thinking about how the content will play if you ARE playing it in rapid succession.
I think Arenanet has historically struggled a bit with "sticking the landing" to their story beats. They set up really cool things but are forced to pay them off too quickly and it ends up feeling a lot more flat than it could have. I do think Preach was TOO harsh on it, but I also think that it was a pay-off with vast potential that was squandered a bit by Anet's writers basically being forced to deliver it too early.
Disagree on going against the power of fantasy and consequences. Tolkien, the father and master of fantasy put death and permanence, and the human condition of being feeble at the center of his stories. And he did so because it's relatable to the perspective of the audience. In this case, those of us behind the screen. Good stories use reality to create magic. Bad stories use magic to circumvent reality.
@@Dookie6891 I agree, but in all circumstances can be prevented under the right events. Sail to the undying lands? Grab a ring of power? The power of fantasy is to exceed these. Unfortunately it gets burdensome when all we see are the heroes who are expected to surpass it.
@@Dookie6891 dont really agree.... while yes lotr was amazing dont get me wrong, i think that it always depends on the world and setting. Lotr is kinda on the lower end side of high fantasy (at least the main books/movies i personally would maybe not even consider high fantasy) while GW2 is definitively on the higher end side. Magic is not real so it can be used to circumvent reality as it already ignores/changes physics which is the basis of our reality... so magic in itself is already circumventing reality.
But i guess in the end it is a matter of personal preference so there is no real right answer. So if people feel cheated because Aurene came back that is their right after all... but it is the same for those who enjoyed her coming back
18:41 It was MONTHS when it went live...
Months of ppl not knowing what would happen next...
Thinking that Aurene was dead for good...
But ofc, if you play one epísode right after the previous one... you won't ever truly *feel* those "cliffhangers"...
Really enjoyed the video but just wanted to say that as a gw2 veteran who is currently playing through the ffxiv story for the first time I would really appreciate if you didn't spoil major plotpoints of that game or at least give a spoiler warning just like you did for the gw2 story (I was luckily able to mute the video as soon as I realized you were talking about ffxiv but like I said, a warning would have been nice)
About Aurene's resurrection, there was 3 months of real time between the two chapters coming out. So it had much greater impact back in the day.
imo, Taimis voice acting in this season is absolutely bonkers. I think the only time I have had better ones, was with Jinx in Arcane. The moment she starts crying when she is kidnapped, or when she realized Aurene is dead, both were heart wrenching sound that still haunt me to this day.
For me:
1. Joko took all the scene he's in.
2. My heart broke when Taimi was kidnapped and she's start crying for help...
3. Taimi going nuts with the cannons in Dragonfall is my absolute favorite moment of her!
Joko was a great character. He was both comic relief and evil incarnate. The whole idea that generations of people have lived and died under his rule, believing him to be their God King with the hope that they may be awakened to serve him in death was a really cool concept. Praise Joko!
It was a cool concept but then they failed to follow up on it: we still dont know who he is (the whole primal kings relation has never been confirmed), nor is there any explanation how a mere mortal could attain immortality and take over controll over generations of undead - something only an Elder Dragon had been able to do. So, yeah, I found his arc disappointing and annoying. You call it comic relief but... no, it didnt click for me.
@@markup6394 Well, that's GW2's story for you in a nutshell. We discard characters that could be interesting as an aside so that we can focus on boring dragons whose motivations have no more depth than "I'm hungry!" Some of them can't even speak and even those that can barely say anything. It's pretty lame.
Joko had potential. The concept was cool. Unfortunately, he was only ever a distraction. An amusing and cool distraction, but ultimately discarded so that we could go back to chasing stupid dragons.
@@HardcoreCasualGW2 The reason why we all love Joko is mainly because he was amazing. He had an amazing run and they didn't dumb him down, they played him as an incredible villain.
In my opinion, he didn't overstay his welcome. Hell, we could have gotten an entire expansion just about him. But they killed him off at the top of his game, ensuring that he would always be an amazing character in our memories. And that's why I think they killed off Joko in time, it kept us wanting more of him.
I did dislike the Dragons-story, as dragons don't make interesting enemies (though all of Icebrood Saga, up to Champions, was amazing).
@@HardcoreCasualGW2 So what? They wrote themselves into a corner with the dragons. I agree, Joko had always been a distraction from the "real" problems in the world (of GW2). But if they wanted him to be a main villian... well, then why bother with dragons? If their main villian is a dragon, then make him interesting. And dont let an annoying side character take the spotlight.
@@kevinpetit3869 IBS up to Champions was good because it focused heavily on the Charr political situation. Whenever we aren't fighting stupid dragons, the story gets good. But they always yank us back to chasing dragons.
was very excited for you to see this part of the game, all or nothing still gives me chills between the zephryte singing and finally getting close and personal with a dragon. You'll come to find theres a lot of great opportunities for major characters to have meaningful deaths that they just kinda make it out alive for seemingly no reason. IBS starts out quite amazing, make sure to do the visions of the past even though they seem a little out of place story wise
I dont spend alot of money on gw2, but the best thing I bought inshop, was the Boss Spawn teleporter thingy, It teleports you to where the next worldboss will spawn
Wow I never knew that existed
Hmm....once i stop doing wb and doing real content that gave ap n made me explore parts of the game i didnt know.....thats whn i start hav fun n feel im doing something.....doin wbs everyday made me want to quit
You have the benefit of seeing the story as one whole piece and the downside.
We waited months for this chapter with aurene and people were truly worried they were closing up shop and ending the game soon. Many people publicly stated they were quitting if we lost her. So when she lived it renewed hope that the story was going on, That we would get to see basically our dragon daughter keep growing up.
I understand you may not be a fan of how sudden it feels for you. But for those of us who lived it it was a real big moment and it holds a special place in the game for pushing us further onwards towards the future.
I said this about Palawa Joko in the previous video, but he's an important returning character from Guild Wars 1. Therefore, it's not really a bait and switch as if you already knew about the character, you already knew what to expect.
I'd argue everything else we see in Path of Fire paints him as a monster.
@@jeremysmith7176 that's kinda how he was in GW1, a monster, but still a joke. the way he die was almost perfect for me. because of how he got his power and what did with it. ANet doesn't always land the delivery, but i think they did Joko right
Resurection of Aurene was a bit "Deus Ex Machina", but it is sweetened but the fact that literally next gameplay is to ride Aurene to chase huge Kralkatorik through the mists. That gameplay was epic.
I love seeing Mike's reactions to all the story beats I've played over the last decade with the game. I haven't played much since the current expansion launched, but I think I may have to play just to keep ahead of the story!
Aurene's resurrection really wasn't that big of a surprise to most people. The mechanism by which she would do so (Joko) was determined fairly early. The only real question was how that magic worked as HOW Joko is immortal has never been explained, closest theory I have seen is in relation to the tar you see everywhere in his domain. Also Anet spent all that time upgrading Caithe's model, so that was another giveaway =P
It wasnt that obvious. When you play the episode and get to the end you see Aurene dead and might think "oh yeah Joko magic revive now", but she doesnt. Unlike Joko who in the cutscene one episode earlier revived right away. So it can easily bait you into thinking she is dead for real. Caithe's model is not a bulletproof giveaway as Anet loves to spend a lot of work making setpieces and models for one time appearances.
And then it just takes 30 seconds in the next episode to bring her back, no extra adventure to maybe help her use the powers and come back, just one special action key. So the mechanism of Joko revive is what the story releases demand I guess.
Lorewise, if you consume ones magic, you also get their abilities as well. Thats how after Zaitan other dragons could use tralls they summoned. And thats also why Kralk was such a big foe because of all those dragons we killed before. So the second you see Aurene literally eat Joko, you could assume she will be able to ressurect. Even when it takes a bit longer. Its true when you play all the chapters back to back, you may not realize that she could possibly get this ability but i bet most fans that know/remember how magic in GW2 works, knew about ressurection right away
@@aidam6152 I'd be fine if they revived Aurene by the end of the next season, not 30 seconds into it.
For me the reason Aurene's resurrection DOESN'T devalue her death is its clearly not a "backtrack". It was well set up with her eating Joko giving player's the possibility of seeing it coming (I didn't but if I recall Preach himself said something about her becoming a Lich as she ate him). The reason why character's who can't stay dead is always a problem is, its rarely planned. It's always a marketing gimmick or a attempt to go back to when profits are higher ... and the reasons are often asinie or just arbitrary. Comic books are obviously notorious for this.
Aurene's death is much more akin to Avengers Infinity War (she even gets the Dr Strange visions) in that even though we as the audience know that all these characters who are now being dusted are probably all going to come back, the in moment deaths are still VERY powerful for a lot of people. To me, the MUCH bigger issues are A) They REALLY need to not technobabble a way to save Taimi, I do believe them delivering on her death is needed at this point and B) A certain someone NOT dying at the end of IBS was a much much bigger mistake ... and that ruined deaths more for me much more than Aurene ever did.
this series is so good, thanks a lot for the content ^^
When Aurene died we had to wait for months to find out what happened and there were a lot of players that were not going to keep playing if she was permanently dead....I was one of them.
I'm curious, how many people predicted she'd use Joko powers to self-resurrect? I played it well after release and so, like Mike, she was basically back right away for me so I didn't have much time to speculate. It seems like it would have been a predictable outcome (and not predictable in a bad way), which might be 20/20 hindsight but with a lot of time I imagine there must have been a lot of speculation about that
@@dckuha It was actually the most common theory because even if some people didn't like Aurene, she's almost the focus of Gw2 (S2, HoT, PoF and S4 revolve around her) and just "couldn't die like that" as she's the only weapon we had to beat dragons.
A deus ex was really expected, what exactly was to be announced tho. But yeah, many players would have been shocked to see her dead for good. I and some friends did some form of grief over her loss as the cinematic was really well orchestred. :(
@@dckuha Nearly everyone from my guildies knew she's going to resurrect with Joko's powers, we made bets to see how big Arenanet's balls will be and how long will they leave her dead. But nobody expected that they instantly return her with zero consequences and a power up. Some of my guildies were okay with it, the rest of them laughed at it and stopped caring for that story after that, including me as well.
should have stayed dead or never "killed" her in the first place it was shit story telling no matter how much people try to reason otherwise
It's too bad you only mention the story :(
Also we waited for so long to know what was next after Aurene's death because even tho we thought she could come back we had no idea how
I was super sure aurene's vision was a bait and she was going to die and comeback to fulfill the requirements for vision somehow, which happened but they didn't have to put it in right at the start of the next chapter
@@mr.serperior7002 Aurene was Glint's Legacy so yeah, low chances she would die like that
He didn't only mention the story. He only really criticized bits of the story.
To me it was really obvious how she would come back. every time a dragon dies and another consumed their magic, they got traits from the powers of those dead dragons... like the power to resurrect dead minions, that was seen when kralk branded over some corposes and they revived as branded minions.
Making that leap that aurene would earn the power of the lich wasn't too hard after all that. I just would have liked if they waited an episode more to let it breathe... maybe send us on different missions, where we try to fight against the consequences of kralk eating parts of the mists and so on. sadly anet doesn't let the story breathe a lot of times and comes to a really quick resolution most of the times.
@@jozzetv to me, dragons gained other's domain of magic. I never thought they could absorb magic like that, otherwise they would have been all mighty marie-sue's after absorbing the magic from the previous cycles. Like throwing fire balls being necromantic and healing and so on
Buckle up for Icebrood Saga... I honestly can't wait to see your video haha.
I can see Mike's point of view on Aurene twist. But as someone who played these releases when they came out - I remember that moment very fondly, as we players had months of time to first grieve and then theorycraft where could the story go from here. Then to have the trailer release with a glimmer of hope. For us, the instance happened months later and it made it a lot more effective. Sure, doesn't work as well when played back to back. ^^ Would work better if you couldn't just exit the instance and re-enter trough the same door minute later ^^
that feeling i had when aurene died... described so perfectly
but also, the 3 month wait wasnt that bad because most already assumed she would be a lich since she consumed Joko's magic
but man was it a good wait either way, so god damn many theories about 'how are we gonna stop the dragons NOW'
additionally not beating Kralk... for the second time... with all the losses... it was a painfull 3 month wait
> "but also, the 3 month wait wasnt that bad because most already assumed she would be a lich since she consumed Joko's magic"
Yeah, and we knew it would be weak sauce in advance. It doesn't adhere to the rules of magic in Tyria either: dragons devour magic, they don't keep individual magics around. If they did, Zhaitan should be even more immortal than Aurene and he died pretty easily.
Aurene resurrecting is one of the many conveniences thrown the player's way in Season 4 and it made the story weak and uninteresting.
Missed opportunity to edit "Lich" over those chips in the bit at the start. :D
Yeah, was suprised myself when Aurene was alive again, i felt like there is a chapter missing between her crystalization and her reawaking, while old players had to wait 6 DAMN MONTHS for that to happen after all
If you look at the surroundings in the aftermath of her "death", you see that time went by, in the game world also 6 month passed and they cleared up the surrounding, build altars, placed flowers
All while Krakatorik is rampaging in the Mist, consuming magic and lifes to no end.
I dunno. Mike makes this giant point of how fakeout deaths ruins things for him but on the other hand says FF14 is one of the best JRPG stories ever told.
I can’t care about anything going on with anyone in FF14 because there are zero stakes and zero consequences at all times with the fakeout deaths. He specifically brings up the Thancred fakeout death fighting Ranjit but Thancred already had a fakeout death before that and he has another AFTER that.
Or Yshtola dying how many times now? Five? It’s ridiculous. I can’t see how anyone gets invested in FF14s story when literally nothing matters, ever.
Unfortunately Aurene's death and rebirth were both not much of a surprise to a lot of original GW players as it went with some pre-established lore. The story beat as a whole was poorly written because it didn't keep the future players in mind very well, but it was a needed part of the story. The franchise has some incredibly deep lore that draws half spoken parallels to the human gods and the dragons (for good reason but that's a much longer comment than I want to leave) and Aurene's story was similar enough to Kormir's from GW Nightfall that the surprise for the original GW players wasn't that she came but, but rather than she came back so quickly. GW Factions also has a quick story beat in which the player character died and was resurrected within seconds, and that served as a catalyst for a power up. GW lore often uses death to make characters ready for a future powerup. I'm not saying this is a good thing, just that it's an established thing.
Very interesting and insightful comment
Ok i'm writing this at 20:18 mark in the video and i've not watched all of it yet but I have to type something. I TOTALLY agree with preach here. I played during the patches and the episode of Aurene dying was spectacular. I agree with preach that the story, fighting Kralk, all that was amazing. And Aurenes death really did make me cry (i'm a softie). While it was a sad moment it was magical and great story telling to make me feel so many emotions. I waited 3 months for the next episode in anticipation wondering how the fuck are we going to beat Kralk. They told the story so well up until that moment. When the next episode arrives and when the hints of Aurene was still alive when the spikes are being pulled out I was LIVID. I actually walked away from my computer for a good 20min before continuing to play. The reason? I was furious that all that build up and emotions the last episode, waiting 3months+ for the next and all that suddenly felt fake. I would much rather them have cooked something better up and have Aurene return later on through some better story writing. Yeah i get it, she ate Joko and had his magic. But it just felt like they had a diamond, polished it then threw it in the trash right after. To note, I LOVE Aurene, and I enjoyed her Character before and from Season 4 and I loved her interaction with Kralk in that same episode. I just really really hate how she came back right after dying, and that's possibly the biggest story blunder in the whole GW2 for me.
I wanted an episode where we had to go back to the domain of the lost, where joko was in the cage and help aurene remember who she is... That would've made more sense, and it would've been interesting to see how we could get there to help, since the last time we were there we literally died.
Thats GW2 in a nutshell, right there: they have multiple gems in their hands and throw them all in the trash bin. Every. Single. One. Its infuriating. There are moments that are genuinly good, awesome, gut-wrenching... but they drop the ball. Every. Single. Time. Us dying is one such moment: no aftermath (unless you're playing as human), no elaboration. Yeah, we died... then we came back. So what? It just deminished the entire experiance. Death, even in games, is not to be taken lightly. And them not even explaining how Joko became a Lich... one big let-down in my books :(
I absolutely get his viewpoint on the Aurene thing and that it feels off to him, but I didn't mind it.
I felt the impact of her death and it really struck me hard. But I also felt they must bring her back sooner or later and trusted they'd have a good reason. The set up of Dragons taking on properties of magic and her eating Joko I think was well established and a good way to do it. Her death was very gruesome and sudden and difficult and I don't feel it was lessened or cheapened, personally. Especially with that wait...
Yeah.... That's the thing, we waited month's until we found out that aurene was back. Not just "30 seconds". But after that we had that spectacular chase after kralky. And the joy of having our "baby" back after all that time was an awesome feeling. But I guess you had to go thru the whole mourning period to really appreciate her coming back.
been a blast to follow your travels thru tyria
Very surprised you haven't mentioned the Dwarven Ruins puzzle!
I found that puzzle months after doing LW4 too on accident, the game hints at it but it gets buried in the aftermath of Aurene & Kraka
knew you'd love the kralk fight. it's good stuff!
I will say, hearing taimi give that heartbreaking cry about aurene ruined me. There was I think a 5 month gap between chapters, and the wait was both awful and amazing. The community as a whole speculated if aurene was alive, and a lot correctly guessed her eating joko would save her.
So I played that patch when it was current and there was a part of me that felt the might of written themselves into a corner. I pretty much lived out what you said in the video about Aurene's death. It just kinda fell flat and I knew in the back of my mind even when that patch was current she was going to come back, having ingested Joko and some of Balthazar. And while I won't spoil anything from ice brood or end of dragons her character, to me, just has that tinge of Mary Sue going on (if that's even the right word).
Amazing honest review!
XD If he´s disapointed in that twist... cant wait to see his conclusions on Icebrood.
Anticipating that video right now :D
The whole Aurene comes back issue is actually the complete opposite. The big issue was not that she was revived but that she was killed!
The resaon is basically in the lore up to this point killing any Elder dragon releases its magic and another beeing has to step in to gather this magic to prevend the world from a chaotic collapse. This was basically why without Aurene Guild Wars 2s lore would end as no one other than a dragon is capable of beeing a vessel for this magic.
The whole idea of why Balthasars intentions were wrong and why he was captured was because he didn't care about those consequences his only goal was defeating the dragons even it would end Tyria in the aftermath.
So for people playing when the chapters were released we didn't struggle of the idea that she was revived we even came to the same story conclusion in the end that because of the fact she snaked our beloved Palawa Joko she could be reborn because anything else wouldn't have made any sense including how the story could be going on from that moment.
I think a big issue for you is that because you have all the chapters in line you miss a lot from the world lore told in the open world. While those questionable things happen explainations to there conclussion are often found throughout events, collectibles like books and a lot of NPC interactions. You will later on have a specific issue with a background story that was told over a few weeks by daylie interactions with a specific NPC and at the end of this the new chapter of the story was released. Without the time in between you will most likely miss this interactions completely and jump to the next chapter wondering why specific things are now like they are.
This is something I found out allready in previous videos of this series of yours because you do not have the time hurdle in between chapters you only see a small portion of the whole concept letting you to believe the story concept itself is the issue rather than coming to the conclusion that you miss some informations of the greater plan behind it.
Of course GW2s story is not flawless by any means and even with every informations some things feel completely off but they are mostly things you will not understand without the context of having spend years with the lore in its fullest. We basically talk about sudden personality changes or even bad written excuses for why we can not see our old warband as Charr anymore (this one was both a joy for even mentioning them again and a big plothole for how bad the explaination given was at that moment) ( in fact Charr have an elite skill where they can call their "warband" so 2 npcs were summoned for a short time however most charr players never use this skill for how bad everything about it is not just powerwise but the stupid choice to just summon random generic legion npcs rather than member of the warband you create through the story (even this is only a skin question it would actually have made people use this skill for lore or roleplay reasons).
When it comes to the lore you should also understand that most of the stuff including the zones themself are not just random they are based about story and quests from Guild Wars 1 as well so while you do not understand who Palawa Joko is only because of the story you know from Guild Wars 2 itself (excluding informations given through some books) In fact a Guild Wars 1 player has plenty of interactions with him before up to the point we have to feel guilty because of what is happening in GW2 which is of course nothing a only Guild Wars 2 player will grasp at all.
Basically 90% of the whole Path of fire expansion is based on such greater insight in the story of Guild Wars as a whole including maps, NPCs, quests, locations, items, skills and on and on and on....
For a Gamer that has not as much experience of such a concept in mmorpgs at all because he is used to games that only support 10% of their content and would at best bring some re mentioning of something old as kind of fanservice this is an even bigger issue but GW2 is the same as a game like Elderscrolls online herefore which are both related to an universe people are allready familiar with through previous encounters with it and both games are true to their world they have greated before including not the lore of only one game but multiple ones and other contents as well like the novels for GW2.
This is why the open world of GW2 can be as good as it is because what it lacks meaning for the main story plot is filled by the lore of this placeas part of the whole lore experience.
People that have read the novel Destinys Edge for example had a completely different view on characters like Lhogan and Rytlock from the beginning or the people who played Guild Wars Nightfall not only met Palawa Joko and Kormir before but experienced the whole concept of their importance. They do not only understand what the sun spears were but they were sun spears themself. A NPC like Koss you met throughout the living story chapter is not just an old hero NPC from the past he was our comrade and we know his background doing quests for him. The same goes for someone like Dunkoro you can't even understand exactly why he is not just any named NPC throughout the story there but actually has a lore weight behind his whole beeing.
When I think about GW2 not the combat system. the graphics or the main story but this bigger understanding of what this world is and should be and how to connect everything together is the important fact. It is not just fan service but actually part of the lore of this world with all the consequences that happened before.
You mentioned how the maps are mostly one style most of the time with not much variaton but here you are on the wrong side as it is not like they can't make maps more different but they need a logical explanaition for why they do it. Jahai cliffs for example is so divers because of the lore of the place itself and the connection to the mists. You can be different in the whole map design but when the map itself doesn't make sense for the lore of this place anymore all you get is meaningless shit.
Even fractals of the mist follow those concept with the normal versions of each of the different fractals beeing lore specific maps that on their own make sense but they also have the chaos mechanic that basically gives you the same places intervened with other fractals because of exactly what it is chaos! And even this chaos is not just there but also explained through the lore.
How much other games you know that understand this kind of world building?
GW2 in a nutshell is a world that takes itself serious most of the time and the times it does not is where it really is the worst as you can't acknowledge it and people will get really upset about it.
As for the Braham and Eir talk by the way it is not just meant to be funny which again shows how little insight you have by what Braham and Eirs connection to each other are. in fact Eir doesn't want to talk about it because it doesn't matter anymore not because of anything else she came to the understanding that Braham is what he is now he might feel sorry about how he was back then but all of this is in the past and he needs to look for the present and future now. Eir is not good with this kind of relation and we know of it because of all the past lore so changing her into a "mommy is there for you attitude in that moment wouldn't it be way worse? By the way talking with all of them throughout their encounter gives additional informations changing a strange encounter to an fully plausible reaction in the aftwermath.
Thats all for now and I hope you understand that there is often more to the lore than just what you gain from simply playing one chapter after another. I also understand that from a newbie point of view not everything makes sense or is good written in general and we often have lots and lots of complains our self about how some story bits play out that doesn't make sense because of missing context.
Character diying is engaging by the way is a half truth! When we critizise anything about GW2 than it is exactly this up to a point a we didn't care anymore for well written characters because they will be killed exactly for that reason in the end.
I mean you had mostly contact with the least favourable NPCs during your story characters that when they died you will not give much 2nd thought about but for me it is excatly the opposite up to a point 3 of the best written characters or at least characters I cared about died during the base game alone.
In fact up to this point in GW2 If I just count in a few of my main characters progress I allready lost more then 10 characters I really liked and at least 6 I was not as attached to.
For Taimies desease in fact the biggest issue is not if she will be cured at some point but didn't you asked yourself why they never even tried to cure her? They even let her best buddy to be killed to make her suffer even more. If anything I ask myself how can Taimie be alive at all anymore with everything she was been through up to this point.
In fact curing her is one of the most plausible things that I can think of in the context of all that is going on all this time or at least trying to find a cure and there were plenty of occasions in between you would assume they would at least try to.
When it comes to Braham again oh boy you will really dislike how stupid the story arround him gets. Braham as a character for me is the worst storyline of them all.
@21:40 completely agree. I have not been invested in the story what so ever after this moment.
Yesss finally! Lets go!
Wasn’t the final story moment at the end tied to ANet possibly ending GW2 at the end of this Living World Season??
About Joko , he was powerfull villian that was sealed (kinda like Illidan) and we made him free only to be able to reach to bigger evil (Joko Wurms allowed us to go through sulfurous desert that is killing living things) in Guild Wars 1. As you can see years later he managed to overthrow humans and sunspear in Elona.
me just being surprised pikachu when he makes 3 million warnings for gw2 story but just casually spoils ff14 story in the meantime...
I know right, when I heard he is about to say something about FF14 I immediately skipped few minutes further to avoid that. Such a bad move Preach. Though I'm not playin that game I heard how good the story is and I might try it one day so any spoiler is a very bad thing.
19:45 the epicness of the aurene resurection just can be experimented if you play at that time because:
took you 2 min from dead aurene to his res, but for the player who at the time was playing
took us several weeks to know what gonna happens next, because aurene dead left us in a spot where we doenst have hope to defeat krak.
so the aurene dead was so epic, painfull drama, who took months of wait to see his resurrection
also!! in a ''tedtalk'' kinda fashion, dev from anet explained how they plain the dead of the aurene since his born
Should have planned it a bit better then.
Joko has always been huge even in gw1, it was more of a surprise to players when you first meet him in gw2 and he was locked up like that. But when he got back into full swing it was like ahhh theres my guy
Glad to hear you aren't giving up on the game, despite it's shortcomings in the story! Icebrood Saga HYPE!
I kinda wish they made us earn Aurene's resurrection in a similar way to how we earned our own resurrection in POF.
Like we have a bunch of mages there. We could have done an astral projection into Aurene or something to find a way to bring her back. Or even they could have baited us with projecting into her to try to get her essence to fight Kralk on our own (a way to contain the extra magic without her) and without hope of bringing her back.
Then inside that internal dragon world we find the lich energies she ate and find out we can bring her back that way.
That approach would have retained the impact of her death a lot more and felt less cheap. It could have been its own short chapter right before the next living world chapter and had some character driven grief parts before we decide to try to get her dragon essence or whatever.
It wasn't 30 seconds for most of us.
Aurene's resurrection was foreshadowed throughout the expansion, you might have missed the minor details, the scattered clues, on how they're going to go about this. When she ate Joko, a lot of players have already speculated that Joko is the answer to the vision she saw about her dying. A quick historical background: in GW1 2nd expansion, we let Joko live and we now personally witnessed the devastation he'd caused over the century. So one objective is to get rid of Joko since we can't have him backstabbing us while we deal with Balthazar. So it's actually a brilliant way to solve two problems; eliminate the Scorge of Vabbi and ressurect Aurene. Characters coming back is not something ArenaNet do, else where is Trahearne or Blish?
So happy to have you stay with gw2
I don't agree on Aurene's resurrection.
Her death was prophesied, her mother Glint had the sight and we know the mechanics of Aurene's powers.
Everything was very well setup and I believe it works even better if you play these chapters back to back. It's supposed to be that moment where doctors are about to call the time of death and the monitor beeps again. With the exception of our own death in PoF I can't recall Arenanet going back on an earned death. Snaff's dead, Eir's dead, consequences are final. In Aurene's case, true death was never in her cards once she absorbed Joko's magic her death was never a true possibility after that moment so we didn't have to earn any resurrection, we just had to wait for it. And back then, we did, we waited 6 months to confirm she wasn't dead.
Its impact comes from the characters forgetting what was shown to us before, and by extension, some players will go through the motions too, thatjust psychology. However, back then there were a lot of people like "wait, no, she can't really be dead, because they made a big deal about her powers. She'll be ok".
So yeah, I don't think it cheapens death in GW2 at all. Snaff didn't absorb a lich's power: he's still dead. Eir didn't absorb a lich's power: she's still dead. Tybalt didn't absorb a lich's power: he's still dead (and it still hurts 😢 ).
A note on Eir's ghost, Norn's culture is embedded in their relationship with the mist, spirits of their ancestors and the such. Only fitting that she would be seen as a ghost considering she's norn. Same for how she treats Braham, she's not really what we consider the best of mothers, she's quite flawed, but that's the life of a norn. Having your name sung in praise is better than a healthy relationship with your kid, go figure.
I've started doing LW and what I gather is that a TON of little details are spread and hidden. Through optional character dialog and little piece of paper to find. I just finished Season 1 and I feel Scarlet would've been straight ass to me if I hadn't been picking all the pieces and talking to everyone. I can imagine Joko's character and history is better explained in that same way through PoF and maybe even strong hints at what was going on with Aurene? Hopefully when I get there it feels like so, with my snail pace picking up all the pieces.
It's a ton to ask for players to find all this by themselves, but it's also too much to put in the main story delivery merely because this game serves all kinds of people.
Some people have said it a little bit, and it is very not obvious, the council “trial” with gorrick has many different dialogue options and pathways some of which are specific to the race of your character, the only guidance to know there are multiple ways to resolve the conversation are hidden in achievements, or, for players used to dialogue in GW2, the sheer number of responses at each step.
This was strange looking back on it too, but the devs have since launch liked making two serious options, a lighthearted option and a pure joke immersion breaking option when they can.
I disagree on Aurene and I think there's a lot of setup Mike has missed that maybe would be clearer in hindsight. Or perhaps it should have just been made clearer in the lead up, as you shouldn't have to be a lore head or following the game live and following all the theories to connect the dots. Or maybe it's the impact of playing on stream where there's lots of distractions, I think it's easy for the story nuances to be missed in that case?
Just a shame to see season 4 and "worst experience" in the same title 😂
Aurene come back was already setup when she eat Joko, I and many people that played back then when they were still releasing the content already knew it was coming up 5 months before, still I didn't like that and I wished that the story followed with her dead. But the last episode of LWS4 is still absurd and it changed my opinion about that, from the moment you jump with Aurene into the mists chasing Kralk until the very end where he gives his heart, it was amazing.
I'm not sure why Mike let that important part out of the video, but I hope he didn't just overlook it and he is planning to talk about it in another video.
I was a long time GW1 player and tried to transition into this game. It seriously toyed with my emotions. I wanted so bad for this game to be awesome but it was filled with highs and lows as you describe here. I played 1500 hours from open beta to HoT release and logged in one day and just looked at the screen. Haven't been back. It just never captured me with magic like GW1 did from the beginning. It's kind of got a Disneyland kind of vibe going on. Seems like it's aimed at a younger audience I guess. It just never got me excited after the first few months.
Absolutely my feelings. Not the story so much, but the gameplay. Going from almost infinite build possibilities in GW1 to 5 fixed weapon skills and a handful of others to choose from was heartbreaking and not the sequel I wanted. If they had the skill system of GW1 with the movement feel of GW2, and the content speed of GW1 I would probably still be there, but nope, not to be.
@@benclapp6100 well you're in for a luck. the new dlc coming in august lets all class to play with more weapon options (which previously bound according to spec)
I really hope arenanet gets better with the writing about real life cliffhangers, time skips ingame and knowledge that you get from outside the game. It was the same with the mordremoth reveal in season 2, where your character drops the name out of nowhere. As far as i know players theorycrafted the names of the other elder dragons out of clues from dungeons and talked a lot on the forums back then. So when you where playing you kinda knew about Mordremoth and what was going on but as a new player you dont have that context
You have to remember when this content released the season didnt come out all at once, there was a few months betwen each episode.
Unfortunately, the months of suspense between all or nothing, and war eternal is completely lost on anyone replaying living world season 4 today. When it launched and you beat all or nothing to doscover aurenes desth, and then had to play the game feeling like there was no hope for the next story step for weeks on end was pretty suspenseful.
I had a similar but opposite experience right from the core game where you meet a character and then they get killed off and I want to say this happens 2 or 3 times
As a new player with 100 hours, i look forward to more Guild Wars 2. It's dope as fuck. Im a Renegade working on the Condi build
To me Aurene's resurrection did not come as a surprise at all. I saw it coming from a mile away, especially having seen Avengers Infinity War and Endgame. It's all there: The 14,000,703 possible futures, the inevitable death of some heroes along the way, and the grand return in the final Episode.
It's a follow through of everything we've learned about dragons up to this point: They consume magic and thereby inherit the powers of whatever they consume. We see the magics of the elder dragons themselves mixing more and more as we destroy them, so it stands to reason that Aurene would inherit Joko's immortality the same way.
What annoys me more is that this actually cheapens Joko's death for me rather than Aurene's, because he basically turns into a Chekhov's gun, with his purpose being reduced to just make Aurene immortal.
Because in his monologue and in the following episode it is established that Joko's powers are *distinctly non-draconic.* He is so off-the-grid in terms of magic that he can actually interact with the minions of the Dragons, which the dragons ordinarily cannot do. Sylvari (Mordremoth's minions) cannot be made into Risen by Zhaithan, but they *can* be Awakened by Joko. Conversely Kralkatorrik can't brand Destroyers, but he *can* brand the Awakened. This is one of my favorite lore mysteries, but now after End of Dragons it's unlikely to ever be resolved as to what's so different about Joko's magic compared to all other kinds we've seen until now.
I remember Aurene's death, the release was on my birthday, and I was so sad but then ... logically it makes sense, they even hinted it but all that emotion was just a jebait. For me, this decision, Zhaitan's fight, and a particular story outcome in IBS are the worst moments in the GW2 story.
9:22 --- 250 years -.- He had been sealed by Turai Ossa and forgotten for millenia, then got released in GW - Nightfall and had only 250 years to establish this new "tradition". Personally, I hated this guy... maybe because I knew him from GW1 but the fact that they never explained his origins (aside from rumors, and the primal kings connection has never been confirmed) or how he attained the powers alike to that of an Elder Dragon to begin with... I was just disappointed. I wished for us to find the origin of his power, find a way to overcome it and then face and kill him. And then he gets eaten... by a dragon... awesome -.- Also, him being over the top evil and comical at the same time... it was annoying imo and I'll never get the the "praise joko"-memes -.-
20:20 --- I was there on release... and yes, it was bad. But the wrost part for me was that Aurene started to talk. I really didnt like that. She was much more... mythical when she couldnt speak and therefore had to use Caithe to convei her meaning rather than directly speaking. It took so much away from that character...
As for Taimi... I really love Taimi. She and Gorrik are the only characters I keep rooting for of the lot, the others are no-nevermind for me. But I already know (havent bothered with End-of-Dragons...) that she will get saved and have a guess at how it'll be done. Makes me wonder why they made her invalid in the first place... Not that it would take away that much of her character but still... annoying.
Yeah I don't really see why Mike feels so negatively about the Aurene resurrection. The game set it up for a while that Aurene would have to face death in order to defeat Kralkatorrik. Also this isn't a grimdark fantasy game, it's always been more goofy and lighthearted.
He explained why
Because it's actual trash in terms of writing. It immediately invalidates everything before, it's the same reason no one likes Taimi's constant ex-machina. The writing takes a massive node-dive everytime they go the goofy/quirky route.
Shouldn't have been shown several months later. He's right.
I have to be honest Preach helps me understand a little bit more how to handle GW2 as a very casual and beginner level player.
Because my alternative route usually woulda been to just play the game, get lost, get annoyed by getting lost and having no one to play together with to the point where it just...Pushes me away from the game. And everytime I look at GW2 my brain is on high dopamine rush of how much I want to complete this game. I love it.
17:55 In the name of GW2 players who recently started with FFXIV, please be a bit more careful with spoilers lmao
They let Gorrik go because the plague can only be carried by humans and the Commander can vouch for him. Are they going to say no to the hero they owe their lives to?
Living worlds are kept alive very well with collections and achievements. Its actually one of the biggest successes compared to other mmos how they manage to keep the whole world alive - working hours and timezones still exist of course
So glad the next expansion will tackle more serious subjects. Gives Anet a chance to write a more complete story without dragon this dragon that ..
Season 4 but no blish? Slander for second best character ever!
19:29 ... but it was all planned ahead of the time ... when she ate Joke, she took over the necromancy rebrith magic mambo jumbo ;)
you should have seen it comming with how the magics got mixed together when one dragon died, its magic went to the next to be awakend, so too with Aurene - this is why Krakatorix goes insane, due to all this magic
I wonder how Preach reacted when during the Grothmar Valley stint of the Icebrood Saga.
i started playing this back in march and so far JUST FINISHED living world season 4 so I am a bit behind u. I will say Aurene coming back kinda predicted since they said dragons absorb the magic they consume and since joko was the "undying" and she ate him and the build up to the death she was feeling ill. but they did highly OVER do the death though.
if they are going to red con characters can I have my sentient golem that loves taimi back? come back blish!
also i do agree one of the best wrap sequences for a game i have played in years the end of living world season 4 i told my GF triple A game i need to just do side storys and collections for a bit in just appreciation before continuing the story
that's just norn culture, and yeah the Aurene bit had 3 months before the revival patch so it didn't feel as bad her recovering. I don't think it devalued it cause she did gain the power of death magic that was built up since the base game.
I think I've come to label Anet's story telling as... "Young Adult". They have a lot of moments of brilliance, followed by bad choices and Why?!? GW2 in a nutshell, so many of the systems and storytelling get almost to the finish line and then trip.
Once you finish IBS and EoD you will see the whole 10 year story come to a conclusion. What you can see is at some point over that time period they were done with the long story arc and just needed to move the story along and get it over with so they wouldnt be tied to the story arc anymore and could start doing separate stand alone stories which is what the next expansion will be the start of. Lots of good parts but more rushed terrible parts to simply get themselves out of the story hole they dug. My hope is the next expansion story will actually be really well done as they know how to write good stories but won’t be rushing from the middle of the story to just get it done
Rytlok finding his sword and making a deal to "reignite it" when THAT SWORD was in lore and it's twin have had multiple attempts to destroy them. Rytlok making such a deal is confusing, and really feels "shoe horned in" and the ONLY thing i can think of in Rytloks favor is just that this is "The Mists" where the landscape is supposed to be anything and ever changing as it's a place meant for only the gods to navigate to keep the mortals in their "play area" unless the gods welcome you with "the bell" i don't know maybe i made that last part up.
What's her name with the disease or wound or infection whatever as one of the smartest people in this universe you'd think she'd go back home to Rata Sum to find out if anyone else can help her be cured OR SOMETHING.
Aurene being "killed" and "Brought back" soon after does seem really sus, however, for as much as i don't like it, "Magic" is the reason she was imprisoned, "Magic" is the reason she's fine. The fact that she ate Joko is not insignificant. Maybe she can recover from a fatal wound a limited number of times, perhaps only for a limited amount of time, maybe only that next one time she would receive a fatal wound. Unfortunately, regardless how you feel about Aurene she is GW2's version of Wolverine unless the people of GW2's story say otherwise. And we all will just have to accept it because Joko.
Welp, that was a massive spoiler for FF14 Shadowbringers at 17:55 xD didn't expect that on a GW2 video.
I mean. If you are saying that from the perspective of somebody who hasn't experienced that part of the story, don't worry, it's a minor spoiler for sure but what he said was completely void of any real context.
It's not really a spoiler without context don't worry
I had a friend that completely left the game over the narrative decision to bring Aurene back. In some element the end of War Eternal after the defeat of Kralkatorrik is worth it. Her ascension is also emotional and at the time, playing this live the speculation on what would happen was a lot of fun. However, I have never been a fan of the narrative decision to kill her and then bring her back.
It is sad he does miss a lot of story beats that I think he’d enjoy. But mostly cause I don’t see anyone said it here, the mists are a known place you can visit, it’s where pvp is, fractals are using it, in GW2 death isn’t much with entire factions of undead.
I didnt get to watch the streams, did Preach do War Eternal? That ep of LS4 is super epic
You should consider addih runeacape 3 to project MMO, imo its one of the best narritive experience in MMOs, not quite the scale of ff14 narritive but feels like an adventure and really realy interesting lore that the game doesnt try to hide from u like other mmos
The part where you walk while injured reminds me a lot of when Ghaul kicks you off the tower in the red war campaign from destiny 2. So sad they removed it, as it was such a good story. I just looked it up and the part i'm reffering to is called the journey.
It’s not as thought they backtracked aurene’s death. They already knew she was gonna be reborn BECAUSE she ate joko. Because it’s already in the lore that dragons eat magic and take on the properties of the magic. So maybe it was janky how it flowed, buts it not like they didn’t have a plan.
See, Aurene's resurrection was expected though. She consumed the undying lich, Joko, and Dragon's in GW2 gain the properties of the magic they consume. Aurene though is the only character that can do that so the risk of dying is still there. Aurene's resurrection was already written before they even showed her "dying", it was all planned. The reason they put so much effort into the "tragedy" of her "death" was to try and throw people like me off who eat up all of the story and lore left, right, and center. They needed to make it seem final otherwise the story nerds like me wouldn't have had the impact they wanted us to have from it.
No other character's can or will be able to come back after they die though simply because they don't have access to lich magic the way that Aurene does. Her revival was being built up to from the moment she swooped in and ate Joko during that one cutscene. Think about how Mordremoth was able to use Zhaitan's magic though and then after that, Kralkatorrik could use both Zhaitan and Mordremoth's magic. The clue was there the whole time, they just needed a delivery that would make you not think about it until the final moment.
Also, Joko as a character has been around since the original Guild Wars game, he was introduced in Guild Wars: Nightfall as the player gets tricked into releasing him from some kind of sealed prison if I recall correctly. Sorry for the potential spoiler.
Honestly, I feel like the Aurene bait and switch was because Anet did not have a good idea of how to finish the Elder Dragon saga (as in, getting rid of all the elder dragons) in a satisfying way that made sense without using Aurene in that plan as was shown and explained multiple times with Glint's prophecy. But at the same time, Kralkatoric had been built up so much that they couldn't 'just' give the win at the end of that chapter, not without an actual loss for the characters and the Commander.
Now, I agree that they shouldn't have killed Aurene, it feels too much like it diminishes a feeling of threat, like we can't even consider anything endangering Aurene in the future from that point on. But we find out later on that it doesn't mean everybody else is safe either. And I personally liked what they ended up doing with Taimi in End of Dragon.
The Eir and Braham bit though, that was completely fucking bullshit, I agree xD
I too played this back to back and I was expecting her to comeback since the narrative to end kralk seems to need aurene. So I expected it but at the same time also thought this was the cheap cheat death to get your heart racing moment. I don't appreciate those anymore as I do believe character death plays a vital role in the immersion. FF14 has done some convenient loopholes on death and has somehow still moved the hearts of their fans but to me it is still one big cartoon drama where I never worry about the well being of the characters at all.
As others have said the Aurene "death" hit harder when there was a big gap of not knowing before the next part came out and there was a big feeling among the player base of "well shit... now what do we do?". Being able to back to back play it now definitely changes that vibe though and that's a shame. There is someone who dies valiantly in LWS4 and doesn't come back though :( Pour one out for the homie Blish.
Blish... i think pretty much the only direct player companion that actually dies and stays dead.... at least in a long time, if we put aside the core story mentors that all die.
And he is a character that Mike didn't connect with, at all. He burned through his episodes in two days, I think, while we had him for several months, potentially replaying the story several times. Also, he constantly called him "the bin"... :D
He has a natural disgust towards Asura, in general, which I find deeply infuriating. 😠
@@jozzetv All 3 Mentors, Scarlet, Belinda, The master of Peace, Eir, Faolin, Trahearne, Caudecus, Demmi, Herald of Balthazar, Vlast, Balthazar the God, Blish, Joko, Kralkatorrik, Smodur, Almorra, Ryland, and more that I wont go into for EoD Spoilers. All dead and have stayed dead. All major multi-chapter and arc characters. Literally the one and only time they have brought someone back is Aurene. But sure, Blish is the only one who stays dead according to you. heave yall even played this game? The commander has lost so many people and dealt with so much crap they almost have a literal meltdown and get demon possessed because of it in the latest chapters. But yea; death is meaningless in this game where 1 single character managed to escape it through a highly telegraphed and set up manner, right?
@@7BitBrian I talked about a direct player character companion. scarlet was a villain, same as balthazar, vlast was "i come, i die", herald of balthazar was a villain too and was very much unsatisfactory. they could have done way more with her. belinda was there at the end of one episode and died the very quickly after - not a companion at all, faolin, again a villain. The master of peace was never a companion, just a person we met once or twice. kralk... again a villain... why do you mention so many villains while i talk about direct compaions? Ryland, villain again. almorra and eir come closer to a companion, but not really, smodur even less and they did his character so dirty anyways and destroyed him during the icebrood saga. joko, villain not companion. caudecus, villain, demmi comes closest to a companion, but only if you played for the order of whispers. after that traherne comes the next closest to a companion, since he was with us during the end of the core game, but was at that point also not an active companion anymore... and since most players don't even like traherne that much, it doesn't even have that big of an impact, that we kill him.
So you only really managed to mention 2 npcs that could count as a direct companion, where one of them is only of interest to whispers players.
I never said, no one died... cause then you could also have mentioned Ceeras husband. But i specifically mentioned direct player companions. someone like braham, taimi, kas, marjory, rox, canach, gorrik.
braham should probably have died after we defeated primordus. taimi is terminally ill, but we never really make it part of the story. it was a big reveal once and then mentioned only a few times, but never treated as something ongoing. they could have at least used that to explain multiple periods of her absence in the story especially since she usually always listens in on us, and then to not hear her for so long is just strange after such a reveal.
So... why did you try to sneak in that many villains, when i was talking abut direct player companions?
I understand where you are coming from with games and stories bringing characters back too much and stuff but the Aurene thing they setup to come back beforehand so it made sense. Yes I was one of those people who played it as current content and was really upset when we thought she died but she is so pivotal to the dragon storyline that it really wouldn't make sense to have spent so much time saving and raising her just to have her die in one dragon fight.