Testing is the only way to determine if something makes a difference or not. In this case, I got an unexpected result. Visit us on Patreon: / winninginthewind
I seat all my primers on my Dillon XL650. In fact now that my load development is finished, I load the final product on my XL650 too. Until this video I had never heard of primer crush. The load for my 308 bolt gun is perfect so I won't be changing how I seat primers. With that said, I find this very interesting.
Great topic and I honestly based on your background and experience you will get us something better than the CPS and even if its the same price or a bit more it will do it :) Talking about diving in deep ;) Best of luck! BTW - love your content :)
Interesting experiment, and gives me an idea for another test. Primer crush (aka, "reconsolidation" and "setting the bridge") recommendations from U.S. makers and experiments by NOSIH suggest improvement in primer ignition performance by compressing the anvil a couple or three thousandths. However, the Russian primers, specifically, and despite their burred and hard-to-seat cups, have garnered an enviable reputation for minimizing velocity spread, often outperforming Federal 210Ms and others in that regard. It makes me wonder if the Tula plant set the bridge during the primer manufacturing process rather than leaving it for the ammunition loader to do. So a repeat with some CCI or Federal, and especially Remington and Winchester, might bring different results. (Remington and Olin (then Winchester's owner) were the outfits that recommended reconsolidation to the military back in the 1970s that NOSIH reviewed and modified from 0.002-0.006" reconsolidation to 0.002-0.004" reconsolidation circa 1980 based on their tests.) I don't know, but it would be fun to find out.
My question would be if primer seating should be tuned much like bullet seating depth or powder charge weight. Paying more attention to priming seems like a logical progression once powder is tuned, bullet is tuned, and cases are uniform.
I use a Lee press to seat my primers. I have never measured the crush...never thought that was a thing. It does seem that I seat mine until they are just below the base of the case.
Interesting test. Now I’ll start paying more attention when I’m priming. Do you believe your results would be the same for my rifle? Or is it like bullet seating depth, different for each barrel?
I wish you the best on the primer seating tool I was trying to figure out how to make a 21st-century hand, priming tool mounted in some device to make it a bench mounted tool.
Are you making a precision primer bench mounted tool, I have been trying to find a bald eagle precision priming tool but no one has one in stock, crazy.
Hi Keith. When you sryjust touching the bottom of the pocket. Do you mean the primer cup or the spider thingy that protrudes a few thou before seating? I use a Primal rights bench mounted seater and currently seat until the primer cup touches bottom of pocket. Is this correct from your findings?
Keith. I started seating my 450 primers with my Sinclair hand seating tool with the shim kit you told us about.I found my rifle likes .006 below flush. I shot 3 different powders and the 5 shot groups were all in the high teens in my 6 Dasher. Thanks, Buddy.
In my own testing... Consistent seating is more important than how deep they're seated. Personal preference here, but I'm only willing to sort and test a certain number of things. The list of "things" varies some based on use case, but I pick the 2-3 most important (in my opinion) for the discipline.
I'm confused. You said that as the crush increased, the average velocity decreased, but as you increased the crush that ES and SD increased. So what I'm taking from that is that you achieved better extream spread in velocities but on paper it got worse? To me that just means that you would need to follow with seating depth?
I don't think he has the skill to make a tool. He's trying to compete with Cortina, who does make his own tools. Ever since Cortinas tuner brake, he's been jealous. He made a video talking crap about it. But plenty of real shooters back up the fact that the tuner brake does, in fact, work.
I like to fell my primers hit bottom easily can feel with rcbs bench mount but I do uniform primer pockets just old set in my ways take what I say with a grain of salt
Absolutely nothing wrong with uniforming primer pockets. Some ask why. So my answer is this... I buy a box of good Lapua brass. The pocket depth is very consistant at 0.127". Primer measurements are all over the place. Both in weight and length as a matter of fact. So, without uniforming (0.131") depth, it is not possible to seat consistently without the crush being all over the place. And that is a fact too!
Delaying ignition will change the pressure . David Boyd shown me that in a pressure test barrel a few years ago . It's basically the same deal as a weak firing pin spring ,will not agg for anything. Seat them all the same for a constant ignition and tune the load
There is consistent ignition which means the firing pin is not seating the primer (this is a must) and then there is crush which is effectively tuning your firing spring timing which folks do all the time by adding spacers to their firing springs. Not just pressure but harmonics. Getting primers seated properly is paramount but there is tuning to be had by adjusting the crush.
@@sf2189 adding washers to spring just adds spring rate for say 24 lbs instead of 18 lbs . A offset trigger hanger either increases or decreases firing pin length by cocking sooner or later on a given firing pin
Doesn’t the spring rate alter the timing with more or less force? The argument Cortina and Dykstra make in the video that just came out on this topic is that the distance to the primer effectively does the same thing. I haven’t tested this yet but working a 6.5x47 load and will try this step before barrel running. I guess we shall see.
If you look up Allan Jones's article on The Mysteries and Misconception of the All-important Primer, he says cracking of priming material while "setting the bridge" (aka, reconsolidating) the primer was an issue with some very old original primer mixes developed by Dick Speer and Dr. Vernon Jastis were brittle and would crack as you describe, but that is not true of current manufacture.
FWIW, Bryan Litz has tested it, primer seating depth, and he doesn’t think it matters! Period! I’m paraphrasing but, he thinks it’s “a 3rd or 4th order issue” problem, at best! Here you go, straight from the horses mouth……..@ 45:30 ua-cam.com/video/_6TAMM-fz-c/v-deo.html To be fair, that’s not to say the you’re wrong! Reasonable people can disagree! However, when someone with his credentials “makes an observation” it’s hard to ignore it! IMO. Give us more data! 🇺🇸
Take it to market Keith. I'm looking for something less than $600 to seat primers. Lol
I seat all my primers on my Dillon XL650. In fact now that my load development is finished, I load the final product on my XL650 too. Until this video I had never heard of primer crush.
The load for my 308 bolt gun is perfect so I won't be changing how I seat primers. With that said, I find this very interesting.
Your test confirms my suspicions. Thank you for these videos, very well done!
Good timing on this. I just watched the Primal Rights interview Corrina just released about the primer seater.
I like the theatrical B-roll. Especially, the splashing powder. 👍🏻
Good, but surprising results on the amount of crush. Looking forward to the primer seater you are developing.
Thank you for the information!
Great topic and I honestly based on your background and experience you will get us something better than the CPS and even if its the same price or a bit more it will do it :) Talking about diving in deep ;) Best of luck! BTW - love your content :)
Interesting experiment, and gives me an idea for another test. Primer crush (aka, "reconsolidation" and "setting the bridge") recommendations from U.S. makers and experiments by NOSIH suggest improvement in primer ignition performance by compressing the anvil a couple or three thousandths. However, the Russian primers, specifically, and despite their burred and hard-to-seat cups, have garnered an enviable reputation for minimizing velocity spread, often outperforming Federal 210Ms and others in that regard. It makes me wonder if the Tula plant set the bridge during the primer manufacturing process rather than leaving it for the ammunition loader to do. So a repeat with some CCI or Federal, and especially Remington and Winchester, might bring different results. (Remington and Olin (then Winchester's owner) were the outfits that recommended reconsolidation to the military back in the 1970s that NOSIH reviewed and modified from 0.002-0.006" reconsolidation to 0.002-0.004" reconsolidation circa 1980 based on their tests.) I don't know, but it would be fun to find out.
My question would be if primer seating should be tuned much like bullet seating depth or powder charge weight. Paying more attention to priming seems like a logical progression once powder is tuned, bullet is tuned, and cases are uniform.
I use a Lee press to seat my primers. I have never measured the crush...never thought that was a thing. It does seem that I seat mine until they are just below the base of the case.
Interesting test. Now I’ll start paying more attention when I’m priming. Do you believe your results would be the same for my rifle? Or is it like bullet seating depth, different for each barrel?
I wish you the best on the primer seating tool I was trying to figure out how to make a 21st-century hand, priming tool mounted in some device to make it a bench mounted tool.
Which primer seat did you use for this test? Thx!
Are you making a precision primer bench mounted tool, I have been trying to find a bald eagle precision priming tool but no one has one in stock, crazy.
Hi Keith. When you sryjust touching the bottom of the pocket. Do you mean the primer cup or the spider thingy that protrudes a few thou before seating? I use a Primal rights bench mounted seater and currently seat until the primer cup touches bottom of pocket. Is this correct from your findings?
Keith. I started seating my 450 primers with my Sinclair hand seating tool with the shim kit you told us about.I found my rifle likes .006 below flush. I shot 3 different powders and the 5 shot groups were all in the high teens in my 6 Dasher. Thanks, Buddy.
Below flush is a irrelevant measurement. You have to remember the primer cup is indexed off the top on the rim not off the bottom of the case head.
@@NowellGreasley The Sinclair tool he used indexes off the bottom of the case head.
Any word on the primer press tool ?
In my own testing... Consistent seating is more important than how deep they're seated. Personal preference here, but I'm only willing to sort and test a certain number of things. The list of "things" varies some based on use case, but I pick the 2-3 most important (in my opinion) for the discipline.
Aaron ignition priming is one of those important things
I'm confused. You said that as the crush increased, the average velocity decreased, but as you increased the crush that ES and SD increased.
So what I'm taking from that is that you achieved better extream spread in velocities but on paper it got worse? To me that just means that you would need to follow with seating depth?
Link to your priming tool please.
What happened to your paw? Wasn’t aware that you were injured. Wait- you have primers? How large of a loan did you have to take out?
Keith what did you end up making for primers seating? How did it turn out? Are you selling any yet if so? Thanks,Trey
I don't think he has the skill to make a tool. He's trying to compete with Cortina, who does make his own tools. Ever since Cortinas tuner brake, he's been jealous. He made a video talking crap about it. But plenty of real shooters back up the fact that the tuner brake does, in fact, work.
I like to fell my primers hit bottom easily can feel with rcbs bench mount but I do uniform primer pockets just old set in my ways take what I say with a grain of salt
Absolutely nothing wrong with uniforming primer pockets. Some ask why. So my answer is this...
I buy a box of good Lapua brass. The pocket depth is very consistant at 0.127". Primer measurements are all over the place. Both in weight and length as a matter of fact. So, without uniforming (0.131") depth, it is not possible to seat consistently without the crush being all over the place. And that is a fact too!
Seems like the F-class community is talking about primer seating this week. Cortina just interviewed the primal rights guy
Delaying ignition will change the pressure . David Boyd shown me that in a pressure test barrel a few years ago . It's basically the same deal as a weak firing pin spring ,will not agg for anything. Seat them all the same for a constant ignition and tune the load
There is consistent ignition which means the firing pin is not seating the primer (this is a must) and then there is crush which is effectively tuning your firing spring timing which folks do all the time by adding spacers to their firing springs. Not just pressure but harmonics. Getting primers seated properly is paramount but there is tuning to be had by adjusting the crush.
I'm interested in seeing the priming tool
@@sf2189 adding washers to spring just adds spring rate for say 24 lbs instead of 18 lbs . A offset trigger hanger either increases or decreases firing pin length by cocking sooner or later on a given firing pin
Doesn’t the spring rate alter the timing with more or less force? The argument Cortina and Dykstra make in the video that just came out on this topic is that the distance to the primer effectively does the same thing. I haven’t tested this yet but working a 6.5x47 load and will try this step before barrel running. I guess we shall see.
You gavexav.002 window
Ugh...Lee ram prime?
Once you crack the pellet of primer compound, the results become scetchy.
If you look up Allan Jones's article on The Mysteries and Misconception of the All-important Primer, he says cracking of priming material while "setting the bridge" (aka, reconsolidating) the primer was an issue with some very old original primer mixes developed by Dick Speer and Dr. Vernon Jastis were brittle and would crack as you describe, but that is not true of current manufacture.
FWIW, Bryan Litz has tested it, primer seating depth, and he doesn’t think it matters! Period! I’m paraphrasing but, he thinks it’s “a 3rd or 4th order issue” problem, at best! Here you go, straight from the horses mouth……..@ 45:30 ua-cam.com/video/_6TAMM-fz-c/v-deo.html
To be fair, that’s not to say the you’re wrong! Reasonable people can disagree! However, when someone with his credentials “makes an observation” it’s hard to ignore it! IMO. Give us more data! 🇺🇸
Thanks for the link plug